Why all the hate? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kazimer

12-21-2005, 07:36 PM

<DIV>I find it humerous how a class plays in a game somehow changes the personality of the entire group. I have a bit of knowledge for you 'classy' and 'mature' rangers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The Warlock boards were exactly like yours is now, before LU13. Everyone was polite, helpful, and turned a shoulder to hate threads. Why? because everyone was happy with their class and their role. But, we were overpowered, and it had to be changed. I wish it wasn't as 'aoe specialists' but whatever, another thread. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is an issue with balance whether you want to admit it or not. How does it affect me as a warlock? I am tier 2 and t3 dps, rarely t1 on group encounters. Even on those I get beat out by rangers every time. This is not right. It's always wizard vs whoever, I don't want you other t1 classes to forget that us warlocks are supposed to be the king of aoe damage, giving up single target dps, and we're not fully where we should be. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>poison procs just do too much damage, period. and with long delay bows, they proc way more often than they do for other rogue types.</DIV>

Mentla

12-21-2005, 08:15 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>The_Wind wrote:You're not quite grasping it yet. We do not care about this argument anymore. We fail to see a purpose to it, and none of us here care if the wizards hate us. We will take what the devs give us, and we'll adapt and carry on. If I find something that I would like changed I base if off of how its affecting me, not because it needs to be better than someone else. Quivers, we got them, there was much rejoicing. Poisons are fixed, as is Stream, and there was much rejoicing. We are happy here, and the majority of us, just do not care if there is hate in the other forums. If you want help with rangers, ask us, but if you want to complain about class balance, take it somewhere else. I personally do not care if wizards could do twice as much damage as me. Its just not important to argue with any of them about it. This isn't the place for wizard/ranger hate fests, and we're through with it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Here here, well said that man. When I group with Wizards they usually seems like decent chaps and often out DPS me. Fact is a lot of the people complaining don't have the best gear or can't play their char. If they are being trashed by a Ranger chances are that Ranger has [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good gear and is - as the little plastic people who play CS say - 1337.</span><div></div>

Khevy

12-21-2005, 08:49 PM

<P><FONT color=#66ff00>My point is this, if we are all supposed to be T1 damage, then why complain if we are all doing similer damage? I think the problem is people have certain expectations and want to be hands down the best. Being similer is not good enough for them. Now I do think that all T1 need to be brought up to Similer damage, but realize that someone is always going to be better no matter what. Especially with the the differences in spells and Ca's.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>One thing to keep in mind. For a Ranger to be T1 DPS we cannot be in melee. My damage drops off significantly when I am in Melee combat.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Also, with the latest live update our second hand weapon does not get the poison proc which further lowers melee DPS. So now we have been efectivly limited in the way we play our toon. We must have a tank that can hold aggro for us otherwise we cannot bring our bow into play. There is no need to complain about this though. I still enjoy playing my Ranger.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </P>

Zholain

12-21-2005, 08:49 PM

<span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Kazimer wrote: </font><div><font size="2">I find it humerous how a class plays in a game somehow changes the personality of the entire group. I have a bit of knowledge for you 'classy' and 'mature' rangers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <font color="#ffff00"><b>The Warlock boards were exactly like yours is now, before LU13. Everyone was polite, helpful, and turned a shoulder to hate threads. Why? because everyone was happy with their class and their role.</b></font> But, we were overpowered, and it had to be changed. I wish it wasn't as 'aoe specialists' but whatever, another thread. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font></div> <div><font size="2"> </font></div> <div><font size="2">There is an issue with balance whether you want to admit it or not. How does it affect me as a warlock? I am tier 2 and t3 dps, rarely t1 on group encounters. Even on those I get beat out by rangers every time. This is not right. It's always wizard vs whoever, I don't want you other t1 classes to forget that us warlocks are supposed to be the king of aoe damage, giving up single target dps, and we're not fully where we should be. </font></div> <div><font size="2"> </font></div> <div><font size="2">poison procs just do too much damage, period. and with long delay bows, they proc way more often than they do for other rogue types.</font></div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">If anything, the ranger boards have been <i><b>less</b></i> positive post-CU than they were before (when we were <i><b>severely underpowered</b></i>), although I must say that very recently they are starting to resemble the ranger forums of old more and more. I won't address your other statements, as they will only lead to disagreements. </font></span><div></div>

The_Wind

12-21-2005, 09:35 PM

<div></div>Not a matter of us being overpowered now and not wanting to admit it. Before LU13, you may have been over powered, I don't know, never played a warlock. However, before LU13, we were very underpowered, almost to the point of barely being able to survive, anything. So anything better than what we used to be, and we are happy. I'm not trying to be better than anyone, or be a better man than anyone, I'm just really tired of having to defend myself, when it really doesn't matter. If warlocks, and wizards feel they need more damage to keep up with us rangers, then by all means, give them some more. If you think us rangers need to be toned back to allow wizards/warlocks to keep up with us, then again, scale us back. ANYTHING we have now is better than we had pre-LU13. And I as a ranger am thankful for what I have. edited for grammar<div></div><p>Message Edited by The_Wind on <span class=date_text>12-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

Kazimer

12-21-2005, 09:41 PM

<DIV>lol...and I thought I'd bring out some anger in you. You proved me wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure down the road everything will flip several times over with every class being a fotm.</DIV>

Deml

12-21-2005, 11:05 PM

I think the point you're really missing in all of this is that, in general, those of us who play rangers and post on these boards, don't care what others say about us anymore. Most of us are tired of defending ourselves to people who only listen to part of what is said, so that they can turn it around and use it against us. Come here looking to make people mad by posting things like that and get a big flame war going, and you'll be disappointed, a lot.

meest

12-21-2005, 11:11 PM

Anyone Who plays a ranger is used to being commented on, told old stupid EQ Live jokes like "Bind here often" etc. You will find most of us that play a Ranger play it for the fun. We realy could care less what our damage output is. As long as we are making a dent we are happy. In order to play a ranger you have to be laid back, and have a good sense of humor.... A good example of this is my Signature. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As long as I am still called a ranger i will rule my pants! <div></div>

Crychtonn

12-21-2005, 11:57 PM

<P>Kazimer if you go back and look through this forum from the start of the game you'll notice it hasn't changed much at all. We were pretty much the same pre DoF as we are now. And yes pre DoF our class was extremely sub par. Sure there were posts asking for fixes and help to make Ranger's at least a semi desired class. The difference is we never made thread after thread using other classes as examples of how unbalanced we were.</P> <P>Maybe I was wrong in the past pointing out things that could be bettered for my class and should have spent all my time ripping on other classes that could do more. Sadly I did let all the negative attacking of my class posts effect me and sucked me into them. Maybe if all the attacks were spread out to all the high raid dps classes I wouldn't have. For some reason my class has been decided to be singled out. Which I find funny as it gets out dps'd by several other classes on raids consistently. But I'm officially done with that.</P> <P> </P>

Jay

12-22-2005, 01:07 AM

KnightOfTheWo

12-22-2005, 02:22 AM

On a practical, non raiding level, once in game and actually playing, I have never, through dozens of both pick up groups and guild groups, had an issue with group effectiveness being seriously affected by which DPS classes we had. In other words, if there was a warlock, wizard, ranger, or some other combination of scouts and mages I never have had one of the mages comment "Gee, we have a Ranger, this isn't fair to me and I can't have any fun in this group because the Ranger here is going to out-DPS me." The controversy seems to be in the forums. Haven't seen it in the game. This is subjective of course, it's just my experience. And maybe it's very different for the top tier raiding players. But for the great masses, I just don't see how it affects your ability to have fun and group with other players if you're a mage. Like some better spoken Rangers who have posted earlier, this issue is long gone...it's just not important to focus on from an end-user perspective. <div></div>

Jay

12-22-2005, 03:30 AM

Good points all. This just isn't an issue for most people. That's not to say that wizards, warlocks, and assassins are all perfect and should never have their problems fixed, but trolling each others' class forums and attempting to start flames isn't going to accomplish that.

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 04:38 AM

It's easy to say "we don't care what people say about us" when you are on top. Class balance is only an issue to those who are at the bottom of the balance. It's common knowledge Rangers and Conjurers own in the DPS department right now, there is bound to be resentment from other classes who are supposed to be up there (like Assassins and Sorcerers) but aren't. <div></div>

Gareorn

12-22-2005, 05:09 AM

<DIV>The game has been out for 13 months. For the first nine months Rangers were at the bottom of the balance tree. We got balanced the hard way, we worked for it. We did not troll other class boards and whine like lost puppys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LU18 nerfed our DPS by reducing the poison procs and increasing the mob run speed. If someone still can't out DPS a Ranger with their comparably equiped wizzy, then they never will and might want to consider giving up on trying to learn how to play their character.</DIV>

Crychtonn

12-22-2005, 05:55 AM

Sokolov it's not that it's the way they are going about it. If you look at the Assassin's board vs the Wizards board you'll see two opposites. Assassin's are working on fixing their class and get alot of support from other scout classes. Big difference is they aren't trying to rip apart other classes while they do it. To me there is a HUGE difference in how they are trying to work on things vs what the majority of the loud talking caster's. Not all caster's are acting this way but the small minority working in a positive way to help their class are drowned by all the negative class attacking ones. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW simplest way yo fix Assassins would be to give them the same avoid AE skill the Brigands have. It's the AE raid mobs they loose their dps on. On all the others they are right there at the top with everyone else.</DIV>

12-22-2005, 10:12 AM

<P>This is my comment to the so called hate "hate" (even though I find the word hate a bit drastic to use in a game)</P> <P> </P> <P>When you ask someone to be taken away something they rightfully see as their true place then you get hate.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you dont have enough then yes ask for more but do not ask for more by asking for making others less, its a poor excuse.</P> <P> </P> <P>As it is now I think rangers and assassins are t1 dps, asking us to be less would also make us t2 or t3 dps and would not solve the problem.</P> <P> </P> <P>What you wizzards want is a solving to your problems and not call for taking down other classess so you get balance.</P> <P>You wont get balance by nerfing rangers only more problems. What you want is you to be better and in right place.</P> <P> </P> <P>I see the problems with wizzards being half dps in some fights. But your solution is not for us to be half too, the solution is to take away what makes you a half player.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I hope I dont need to explain myself more.</P>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 11:04 AM

<div></div>First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased. That does NOT work in the long run. You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf. If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf. It's not "nice," but it should be done. Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it. But nerfs they cry for weeks. There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes. And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me. As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 PM</span>

12-22-2005, 11:14 AM

<P>First of. Assassins are not bad dps if played well.</P> <P> </P> <P>My guildie assassin is constantly even parsing with me and that is ranging for 1000 to 1300 dps for both of us.</P> <P>We play as well both of us and have as similar equipment. Assassin complaining because they cant do more than 600 dps amazes me.</P> <P> </P> <P>Secondly doing 1300 dps is where I think we should be as well as wizzards should but arent where mobs are either heat or cold immune.</P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe you think all should do 300 dps and you would be happy? No I dont think you would.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Why ask to nerf rangers when we are t1 dps and lowering us would make us either t2 or t3 dps.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>What you should really ask is to make every dps class go down to 400 dps max and no raid mobs would go down.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I can see why you get "hate" when you merely whining about others having it too good when you really have it crappy.</P>

The_Wind

12-22-2005, 11:19 AM

This is a post of mine from earlier, I'm gonna copy and paste it here, and then give you the link. <span><blockquote><hr>I'm through with them. All of them. I'm a ranger. I am above this. I will take what is dealt, and I will make the best of it. I will overcome such petty desires. I am a Ranger, and I will live simply as such. We did it once before, when wizards were unbeatable, we continued to strive hoping for greatness. We went from groups despising us, to groups rejoicing at our arrival. If we get nerfed, we will take it in stride, make the most of it, and still show them we are greater. Its what we do, survive. The only difference is we, as Rangers, will continue to stick together. Let the petty squable over who should be greater. We have better things to do than pity the weak minded and jealous. Let them drown in their own sorrows. Some of the masses cannot be saved, its not evil, its just fact.</blockquote></span>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=16012&view=by_date_ascending&page=2<div></div>

Mentla

12-22-2005, 04:17 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div>First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased. That does NOT work in the long run. <font color="#ff0000" size="4"><b>You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf. If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.</b></font> It's not "nice," but it should be done. Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it. But nerfs they cry for weeks. There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes. And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me. As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">12-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ah, so when wizards were top DPS you were asking for a reduction? </span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 06:17 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Mentla wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div>First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased. That does NOT work in the long run. <font color="#ff0000" size="4"><b>You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf. If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.</b></font> It's not "nice," but it should be done. Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it. But nerfs they cry for weeks. There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes. And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me. As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">12-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ah, so when wizards were top DPS you were asking for a reduction? </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I am not asking for anything, I don't have access to the kind of data I'd need to make that kind of call! I am just sick of this nerf-phobia.</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 06:29 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Tevf wrote:<p>First of. Assassins are not bad dps if played well.</p> <p>My guildie assassin is constantly even parsing with me and that is ranging for 1000 to 1300 dps for both of us.</p> <p>We play as well both of us and have as similar equipment. Assassin complaining because they cant do more than 600 dps amazes me.</p><p>Secondly doing 1300 dps is where I think we should be as well as wizzards should but arent where mobs are either heat or cold immune.</p><p>Maybe you think all should do 300 dps and you would be happy? No I dont think you would.</p> <p>Why ask to nerf rangers when we are t1 dps and lowering us would make us either t2 or t3 dps.</p> <p>What you should really ask is to make every dps class go down to 400 dps max and no raid mobs would go down.</p> <p>I can see why you get "hate" when you merely whining about others having it too good when you really have it crappy.</p> <hr></blockquote>First, thanks for insulting the assassins I play with. The "played well" argument is something every top DPS class says about other classes - if they "played well" they could match us. </span><span>Well, we can argue about parses and present them as facts but if that's what you believe and I believe differently then that's not going to go anywhere.</span> <span> I would be happy with 300 dps if that is what consistutes as T1. The point isn't exactly what these numbers are, but that they should be balanced, and part of that balance is how GROUP DPS is affected when you simply increases classes. Did you miss my sig? I don't even play a wizard, I do have a ranger though. And why shouldn't players have a right to complain when "</span><span>others [have] it too good when [they] really have it crappy?"</span> <span> My point is that you can't make a blanket statement and say something like "You shouldn't nerf X class." Sometimes it is necessary. You ask why should we nerf rangers so they are not T1 DPS? That's NOT what I am asking for. I am saying that if ANY T1 DPS class is consistently outperforming the other T1 DPS classes, and the others are considered (by SoE) to be where they want T1 DPS to be, then there is nothing wrong with a nerf to bring them in line with the other T1 DPS classes. </span><div></div>

Fennir

12-22-2005, 07:44 PM

when i get put in a MT group because of my buffs or get roots or don't have to pay out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for ~30% of my damage then wizards can out DPS me =) <div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 08:10 PM

Our guild's MT group is usually Coercer, Templar, Warden, Defiler, Zerker and Conjuror. We are scout deficient =/ <div></div>

12-22-2005, 08:26 PM

Sorry if that came out as an insult but for me saying that a assassin cant match a ranger in dps is a insult to my friends assassins performance.

Mentla

12-22-2005, 08:51 PM

well, another thing to remember is that Rangers can only do this high DPS in certain conditions. I am so unhappy with having to group all the time to use my Ranger effectively I've rolled a brawler. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 08:53 PM

Oh, I don't know know about that. I do some insane DPS soloing with my ranger while using every bow CA in the fight. <div></div>

Mentla

12-22-2005, 09:01 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Oh, I don't know know about that. I do some insane DPS soloing with my ranger while using every bow CA in the fight. <div></div><hr></blockquote>How? With the new mob run speeds you can only get 2 CAs off before they close on you and you have to switch to melee.</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 09:13 PM

<div></div>2 words - Stun Poison 1 - Back Shot line. Mob is now stunned, or if it didn't proc it's snared. 2 - Double arrow line. Mob is now almost always stunned, and still snared. 3 - Some arrangement of the Miracle, Trick and Triple lines. Mob is usually entirely still during this period. 4 - Snare the mob if it gets too close (Master 1 Snare is like 62% or something). Arrows are still firing. 5 - Kite mob with snare, cheap shot, and poison stun procs. Also, the Debuff arrow line can be casted while moving - I save this for when I have to run and shoot. Hidden line can be used when mob is snared and stunned, there is plenty of time to stealth and get the shot off. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

Mentla

12-22-2005, 10:14 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div>2 words - Stun Poison 1 - Back Shot line. Mob is now stunned, or if it didn't proc it's snared. 2 - Double arrow line. Mob is now almost always stunned, and still snared. 3 - Some arrangement of the Miracle, Trick and Triple lines. Mob is usually entirely still during this period. 4 - Snare the mob if it gets too close (Master 1 Snare is like 62% or something). Arrows are still firing. 5 - Kite mob with snare, cheap shot, and poison stun procs. <font color="#ff0000"><b> Also, the Debuff arrow line can be casted while moving - I save this for when I have to run and shoot.</b></font> Hidden line can be used when mob is snared and stunned, there is plenty of time to stealth and get the shot off. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">12-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, love that fellow. Keep it at Adp III and would probably get it to Master if I ever saw it. I see you are a similar level Ranger - what stun poisens do you use? I seem to spend all my life in dungeons so I've never really bothered. Can you advise the names of some as just searching through poisens on the broker doesnt seem to help me.</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 10:34 PM

<div></div>Touch of the Beholder is the Legendary T3 poison I've been using. It only procs 30 times. It is also useful in groups. I do also carry some Slow poisons (Touch of Insanity in T5). I am undecided as to whether slow is better or stun, but slow might be better for groups where I have to limit my rate of damage (thus rate of procs), as slow lasts 24 seconds vs the 3 that the stun lasts. www.eq2alchemy.com is a great web resource for all things alchemical =D EDIT: FYI, I was soloing Heroic Lashers in EL at 34, and have been in Obelisk since 37. Not sure where to go next, but eventually do want to attempt the giants outside of Sol Eye. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

Crychtonn

12-22-2005, 11:40 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN><SPAN>My point is that you can't make a blanket statement and say something like "You shouldn't nerf X class." Sometimes it is necessary. You ask why should we nerf rangers so they are not T1 DPS? That's NOT what I am asking for. I am saying that if ANY T1 DPS class is consistently outperforming the other T1 DPS classes, and the others are considered (by SoE) to be where they want T1 DPS to be, then there is nothing wrong with a nerf to bring them in line with the other T1 DPS classes. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>So what your saying is that for the first nine months of this game instead of working to improve my class I should have been calling for the nerf'ing of all the caster classes. Because that would have been really really easy to do and don't think it didn't cross my mind all the time. Especially having to watch Wizards/Warlocks/Conjurors/Necro's going off and solo'ing all the group instances every night and getting sickly rich off it. Or seeing them just cruise around and farm named in any zone they felt like. While as a Ranger I'd get bypast every night because I served no purpose other then to cut into the loot. </P> <P>Stupid me for trying to improve my class all those months instead of just whining and calling for nerf's to all casters.</P> <P>What was even more stupid of me was ever thinking the caster classes would act as maturely as the ranger's did back when we were bottom feeders. And the really sad thing is they aren't even close to that. They have issue's with their raid dps and that's it. But apparently that one facet of the game is greater then everything else.</P> <P> </P> <P>Since I've seen you've gotten yourself into that other thread in the Combat section. The casting time for Sniper Shot is 5 seconds. Good luck showing that 5 seconds is longer then 4 seconds for Ice Comet. As you've seen they can and will find a way to turn it on you. Logic doesn't work on people that only care about themselves. That thread and all the others like it are a lost cause and as I said before I'm done with them all.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Sokolov

12-22-2005, 11:58 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span></span><span>My point is that you can't make a blanket statement and say something like "You shouldn't nerf X class." Sometimes it is necessary. You ask why should we nerf rangers so they are not T1 DPS? That's NOT what I am asking for. I am saying that if ANY T1 DPS class is consistently outperforming the other T1 DPS classes, and the others are considered (by SoE) to be where they want T1 DPS to be, then there is nothing wrong with a nerf to bring them in line with the other T1 DPS classes. </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>So what your saying is that for the first nine months of this game instead of working to improve my class I should have been calling for the nerf'ing of all the caster classes. Because that would have been really really easy to do and don't think it didn't cross my mind all the time. Especially having to watch Wizards/Warlocks/Conjurors/Necro's going off and solo'ing all the group instances every night and getting sickly rich off it. Or seeing them just cruise around and farm named in any zone they felt like. While as a Ranger I'd get bypast every night because I served no purpose other then to cut into the loot. </p> <p>Stupid me for trying to improve my class all those months instead of just whining and calling for nerf's to all casters.</p> <p>What was even more stupid of me was ever thinking the caster classes would act as maturely as the ranger's did back when we were bottom feeders. And the really sad thing is they aren't even close to that. They have issue's with their raid dps and that's it. But apparently that one facet of the game is greater then everything else.</p> <p>Since I've seen you've gotten yourself into that other thread in the Combat section. The casting time for Sniper Shot is 5 seconds. Good luck showing that 5 seconds is longer then 4 seconds for Ice Comet. As you've seen they can and will find a way to turn it on you. Logic doesn't work on people that only care about themselves. That thread and all the others like it are a lost cause and as I said before I'm done with them all.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Nope, that is not what I am saying exactly. If your class needs improvement, sure, ask for it. If a class needs nerfing, sure, call for it. The point is that both are balancing tools to be used in concert, not one to be praised and the other abhorred.</span><div></div>

Crychtonn

12-23-2005, 12:30 AM

<P>[Removed for Content] well I really hate this line but - I told you so :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P> <P>Nice try in putting in the long cast time for Sniper Shot in the other thread. But just like a told you they just toss that info away and still make it unbalanced to them. Hell that guy even came up with a theory in his head where ranger and assassin skills need to have 12 second cast times.</P> <P>Best of luck in that thread. Your going to need it.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>And while my example above may have been over the top (but also 100% accurate pre revamp) that is exactly what all those wizard threads are doing. Think the only ones happy currently are the Conjuror's and Necro's because the with all the Wizard bashing of Scouts they aren't in the spotlight for once.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

Jay

12-23-2005, 01:03 AM

<DIV>/yawns, throws another log on the campfire, rolls over and goes back to sleep</DIV>

Gareorn

12-23-2005, 05:01 AM

This reminds me of an old joke... A level 60 wizard is in Blackburrow killing gnolls and... Hey! It could happen.::smileysurprised:

Fireshad

12-23-2005, 11:43 PM

<P>So yesterday I am in PP returns, and yes, there are some SICK mobs there. Alot of them have complete mana loss powers. As a ranger, I find no problem with this damage wise because I just switch over to my beautiful PGT. Knowing the type of mobs we were facing, I forewent better stats to be in a group with an inquisitor to feed him power through my hitting of the mob. (Some spell they have I guess) Good usage of what you have around you I think. I keep doing damage and we get pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] far with some pretty hard names before we lost to many people to sleep. The wizards/warlocks had good power beacuse they were not being targeted by this mana power loss, but what happened when MT or any other healer but mine began to run out of power to memory wipe? Oh thats right, mages save the day with there mana transfer skills, and illusionist save the day with AWESOME usage of there skills. So what is this poor stupid, but pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good dpsing ranger saying here. Yes, I outparsed all the wizards/warlock. Yes, I was on the top of the list for the whole raid. Would I have the chance to do dps without these mages? No. The tank would have taken aggro because he would not have been able to taunt. Maybe I could have taken over for group buffage. Umm, nope, we werent quite in need for pathfinding during this fight. Yes, at this moment we do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good dps, and I have seen good sorcerers and good assassins keep up. At the same time, we had a couple rangers in this raid and the parsing between rangers was as high as 400 dps. Yes, in PURE damage mode, a wizard/warlock (depending on fight) can out dps a ranger. Especially if the ranger is not putting out the (broker prices) 15-16g pieces PER VIAL of legendary poison. (Parsed yesterday, poison was about 30% of my damage) Do assassins need help, yes, I agree that they should both have the brigand spell like of missing aoes and upped damage. Should warlocks and wizards be bumped more in damage? I can not tell you that, I can tell you that they are t1 damage, and have awesome utility. Any raid that does not take them in with them to a raid is stupid, but I didnt play a ranger to have buffs or anything like that. I am DPS, and so are they, but at times they may have more imprortant priorities then just nuking. </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. STOP MAKING ME DO LONG POSTS DANGIT <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

Jay

12-23-2005, 11:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fireshadow wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe I could have taken over for group buffage. Umm, nope, we werent quite in need of pathfinding during this fight. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Bwahahahahahahaaaa...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh come on, you mean they don't bring us along for our leet group buffs?!?</DIV>

Nak

12-24-2005, 11:03 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<p>I <3 guardians.</p> <p>Assuage master 1 = 31% less hate for me on raids. Guardians are the best :smileywink:</p> <p>As for all the haters. It just shows the maturity level certain classes attrack. Just glad I can look back when the classes crying the most now were off solo'ing instances and named. And we and the other scout classes kept to post trying to improve our classes vs making [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] posts trying to nerf them.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>troubador hate song (forgot the songs name, has a little yellow flower graphic and reduces 48% ish at master 1) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assauge and amends.....+ troub gives you better buff too <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

Poochymama

12-25-2005, 04:47 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The game has been out for 13 months. For the first nine months Rangers were at the bottom of the balance tree. We got balanced the hard way, we worked for it. We did not troll other class boards and whine like lost puppys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LU18 nerfed our DPS by reducing the poison procs and increasing the mob run speed. If someone still can't out DPS a Ranger with their comparably equiped wizzy, then they never will and might want to consider giving up on trying to learn how to play their character.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL this change did nothing to our Rangers. They are still sustaining 1400 dps every fight. Our wizzards sustain about half that due to cast times and the inability to be buffed. They parse about 600-800 every fight.

Poochymama

12-25-2005, 04:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Wizards need to have their dps doubled to be comparable to rangers.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Sokolov

12-25-2005, 04:50 AM

The Proc nerf (yes, proc, NOT poison) affects all dual wielding classes, and affects non-Rangers even more, as the nerf has no effect on ranged attacks and CAs. <div></div>

Poochymama

12-25-2005, 04:53 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR>Jay is right. It's a small part of the people that play wizards that are upset. They think just being a wizard means they should automatically do the best dps. The ones that aren't complaining about us are the ones that know how to play their class and can match/beat us for DPS when they want to. Just ignore them till they go away. The dev's have rangers right where they want us, which is why we haven't had any significant changes since LU13. In 5 updates we've had a few minor tweaks but nothing catastrophic. We are now working as intended and have a great bunch of folks behind those rangers you see in game which is why we churn out the numbers we do. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Give me any wizard in the game that can do 1400 dps on a single target target dps for a fight that takes over 1 min</P> <P>Wizards out dmg Rangers LOL</P>

Poochymama

12-25-2005, 04:56 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentla wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry.<BR><BR>Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased. That does NOT work in the long run. <FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><B>You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf. If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.</B></FONT> It's not "nice," but it should be done. Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good.<BR><BR>The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it. But nerfs they cry for weeks. There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes. And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!"<BR><BR>It's completely ridiculous if you ask me. As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:10 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, so when wizards were top DPS you were asking for a reduction?<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wizards were never top DPS Warlocks were.</P> <P>Warlocks out dpsed wizards on single targets by 75% and about 400% in AOE fights.</P>

Gareorn

12-25-2005, 05:59 AM

<DIV>"Lol wizards are about the best class in the game at soloing heroics. A good wizard can solo a yellow ^^^ named mob without ever getting hit. A little tip,,,,,,, dont use dots."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Poochymama p</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>Looks like yet another wizard found his way the the Ranger forums. ROFLMAO</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>

TwistedFaith

12-25-2005, 07:23 AM

It does really annoy me to read of wizards moaning about their DPS, when I have seen guild wizards do INSANE THINGS and taking down mobs that you wouldnt believe.My personal opinion is that Wizards may need a increase in raid DPS. How SoE goes about doing that is upto them.If they simply increase Wizard DPS, then you'll have wizards running taking down everything that moves. It will totally unbalance the non raid game.

Poochymama

12-25-2005, 12:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR>It does really annoy me to read of wizards moaning about their DPS, when I have seen guild wizards do INSANE THINGS and taking down mobs that you wouldnt believe.<BR><BR>My personal opinion is that Wizards may need a increase in raid DPS. How SoE goes about doing that is upto them.<BR><BR>If they simply increase Wizard DPS, then you'll have wizards running taking down everything that moves. It will totally unbalance the non raid game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What does soloing ability have to do with dps in a raid? Yes wizards can take down practically any heroic melee mob but it takes like 3 min. Rangers can do it to. </P> <P>A good solution would be for roots to not affect heroic mobs. Ehhh?</P>

TwistedFaith

12-25-2005, 05:28 PM

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR>It does really annoy me to read of wizards moaning about their DPS, when I have seen guild wizards do INSANE THINGS and taking down mobs that you wouldnt believe.<BR><BR>My personal opinion is that Wizards may need a increase in raid DPS. How SoE goes about doing that is upto them.<BR><BR>If they simply increase Wizard DPS, then you'll have wizards running taking down everything that moves. It will totally unbalance the non raid game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What does soloing ability have to do with dps in a raid? Yes wizards can take down practically any heroic melee mob but it takes like 3 min. Rangers can do it to. </P> <P>A good solution would be for roots to not affect heroic mobs. Ehhh?</P> <hr></blockquote>Dude dont get all defensive, at the end of the day what exactly do you expect. Do you expect to be able to solo insane heroics, or do you expect to be number 1 at the top of every raid, or again do you expect to do both.At the moment Rangers are in a nice position we do great DPS in groups, can solo well (yes heroics, though again posion, traps, stuns, space to move etc) and we do great raid damage. I'm guessing you basically want to do exactly what rangers can do right? I think Rangers are a lot easier to balance than Wizards, with Wizards hitting a mob for 4k dmg with one spell even a tiny change to resists/cast times etc may lead to bizzare play.Like I said, on raids if wizards are lacking then SoE should either allow you guys to be buffed more from another class or give you more utlity.My only problem with giving more DPS, is it will destroy the non raid game. I'm sorry but like you said Wizards can already do wild damage, the thought of a increase would just lead to wizzys all over the place nuking heroics and burning mobs down in seconds.The whole Wizards are gimped thing is really getting old now. It does tend to make other classes annoyed as it seems to me that if your not the top of every single parser then you complain.SoE have such a hard job of balancing things now. Even a slight change to a class can have huge knock on effects for both normal play and raid play. How would you give a wizard more 'worth' in a raid? How would you balance whatever is done with how it effects the non raid game? I played a Ranger well before the combat changes and yes we were not as "UBER" as we are now, you know what I still LOVED playing a Ranger. I have never been obsessed with DPS and being at the top of every raid. And lets be honest here it's not as if Wizards are some totally gimped class that is unplayable and totally worthless in a raid.I have personally rolled a mage, with the plan to be a Warlock. I like the whole idea of the Warlock, Wizards are somewhat cliched in EQ2. I dont expect to be at the top fo everysingle fight with the warlock, and honestly I dont care. I expect to do worthwhile damage but more importantly I expect a different play style than the ranger.

Poochymama

12-26-2005, 09:41 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR>It does really annoy me to read of wizards moaning about their DPS, when I have seen guild wizards do INSANE THINGS and taking down mobs that you wouldnt believe.<BR><BR>My personal opinion is that Wizards may need a increase in raid DPS. How SoE goes about doing that is upto them.<BR><BR>If they simply increase Wizard DPS, then you'll have wizards running taking down everything that moves. It will totally unbalance the non raid game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What does soloing ability have to do with dps in a raid? Yes wizards can take down practically any heroic melee mob but it takes like 3 min. Rangers can do it to. </P> <P>A good solution would be for roots to not affect heroic mobs. Ehhh?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Dude dont get all defensive, at the end of the day what exactly do you expect. Do you expect to be able to solo insane heroics, or do you expect to be number 1 at the top of every raid, or again do you expect to do both.<FONT color=#ff0000>The reason I get defensive is people (mainly assasins) are hell bent on making sure wizards dont get a dps increase when they obviously needed them. As for what I expect. I expect our wizards to be able to parse # 1 just as much as our rangers/assasins. I dont think any class should be able to take down yellow ^^^ so you could nerf wizards in that aspect if you had to.</FONT><BR><BR>At the moment Rangers are in a nice position we do great DPS in groups, can solo well (yes heroics, though again posion, traps, stuns, space to move etc) and we do great raid damage. I'm guessing you basically want to do exactly what rangers can do right? I think Rangers are a lot easier to balance than Wizards, with Wizards hitting a mob for 4k dmg with one spell even a tiny change to resists/cast times etc may lead to bizzare play.<BR><BR>Like I said, on raids if wizards are lacking then SoE should either allow you guys to be buffed more from another class or give you more utlity.<FONT color=#ff0000> This is what I think would be the best option as simply raising wizard dps would overpower our dps in a every day setting.</FONT><BR><BR>My only problem with giving more DPS, is it will destroy the non raid game. I'm sorry but like you said Wizards can already do wild damage, the thought of a increase would just lead to wizzys all over the place nuking heroics and burning mobs down in seconds.<BR><BR>The whole Wizards are gimped thing is really getting old now. It does tend to make other classes annoyed as it seems to me that if your not the top of every single parser then you complain.<FONT color=#ff0000>I dont play a wizard (i do but he is only 24) I play a berserker and an assasin. The reason i am compaining is because our wizard has never been the top in our parser. Meanwhile our assasin is #1 every fight unless he has to joust (Ranger is # 1 here). Highest I have ever seen our wizard do is 806 DPS which is simply not enough to be tier 1 dps. Tier 1 takes 1200 +.</FONT><BR><BR>SoE have such a hard job of balancing things now. Even a slight change to a class can have huge knock on effects for both normal play and raid play. <BR><BR>How would you give a wizard more 'worth' in a raid? How would you balance whatever is done with how it effects the non raid game? <BR><BR>I played a Ranger well before the combat changes and yes we were not as "UBER" as we are now, you know what I still LOVED playing a Ranger. I have never been obsessed with DPS and being at the top of every raid. And lets be honest here it's not as if Wizards are some totally gimped class that is unplayable and totally worthless in a raid.<FONT color=#ff0000> No they are not but they are just about the worst. Only thing below them is Coercers/Illusionist and extra guardians.</FONT><BR><BR>I have personally rolled a mage, with the plan to be a Warlock. I like the whole idea of the Warlock, Wizards are somewhat cliched in EQ2. I dont expect to be at the top fo everysingle fight with the warlock, and honestly I dont care. I expect to do worthwhile damage but more importantly I expect a different play style than the ranger.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

12-26-2005, 12:10 PM

when i saw what rangers got updated to i was both jealous and extremely annoyed. Playing a ranger to 43 old world, i realized that a rangers dps was worse than healer dps (figurative) their debuffs were crazy and really great though. Once the revamp happened I must say rangers got the revamp they deserved. That part I was jealous for, but seriously, thats way too much dps. I have parsed a ranger in a raid and not only did she do MORE dmg than the raid mob itself, she also parsed more dmg than any other raid participant. she did not die on the raid, and it seemed that the tank was able to hold the mob off of her long enough to be able to parse this way. maybe thats why players dispise rangers a bit. SoA... pfft forget it. If i could fire a stack of arrows of within 20 seconds~ id be a li'l [Removed for Content] too.

TwistedFaith

12-26-2005, 05:08 PM

<blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:when i saw what rangers got updated to i was both jealous and extremely annoyed. Playing a ranger to 43 old world, i realized that a rangers dps was worse than healer dps (figurative) their debuffs were crazy and really great though. Once the revamp happened I must say rangers got the revamp they deserved. That part I was jealous for, but seriously, thats way too much dps. I have parsed a ranger in a raid and not only did she do MORE dmg than the raid mob itself, she also parsed more dmg than any other raid participant. she did not die on the raid, and it seemed that the tank was able to hold the mob off of her long enough to be able to parse this way. maybe thats why players dispise rangers a bit. SoA... pfft forget it. If i could fire a stack of arrows of within 20 seconds~ id be a li'l [Removed for Content] too. <hr></blockquote>Rangers were never appaling DPS, I hated that people seem to think we were totally gimped before the combat changes. We may have not been right at the top but we were certaintly never gimped.As for the DPS, we are in a very good position, I dont particullary feel we are overpowered as such, we are just in a very nice position where in a raid a few classes can cast buffs and it has a huge impact on the DPS. This isn't anything to do with Rangers being overpowered it's just us benefiting from other class buffs.Here's a example, I raid with a troub, he uses presicion of the maestro, as soon as he pops it I hit stream of arrows. Because of this and the fact that he also has a great aggro reducer, for 30 seconds I do some great dps. Take away that troub skill and if I hit streams of arrows in a raid, i'd be dead in seconds. So it's not technically rangers being vastly overpowered here, we and a few other classes such as Assasins got lucky with other classes buffs.Saying that though there's another ranger in my guild and I constantly out dps him on raids, and we are in the same group with the same buffs etc. So I still believe skill and knowing what to hit and when does play a huge part in DPS. What you see on these forums in parses are a lot of the totally highend players who know their class inside out, hence the huge dps scores.By the way i'm not calling for a nerf on other classes here, I LOVE bards, they are just a superb utlity class and they deserve some serious kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] group benefits.<p>Message Edited by valleyboy1 on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 AM</span>

Gareorn

12-26-2005, 08:02 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The reason I get defensive is people (mainly assasins) are hell bent on making sure wizards dont get a dps increase when they obviously needed them.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>So, you are trolling the Ranger forums because..?</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poochymama

12-27-2005, 12:31 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The reason I get defensive is people (mainly assasins) are hell bent on making sure wizards dont get a dps increase when they obviously needed them.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>So, you are trolling the Ranger forums because..?</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because I read all class forums not just the ones I play.

Carna

12-27-2005, 12:56 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> she also parsed more dmg than any other raid participant<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well surely somebody has to be parsing more than anybody else, and given that the person was a Tier 1 damage dealer, what's the problem?.... That's not to say other Tier 1 damage dealers might not have issues. Merely to note that a Ranger coming top in a raid parse is a complete non-issue.</P> <P>I'm a Brigand, not a Ranger btw, I'm not merely rooting for my "own team".<BR></P>

xandez

12-27-2005, 02:21 PM

Who is who in the top DPS ladder? Is this what this is about? Or is this class envy? I think wizards are fine, they have really nice utility which we dont have, they make nice dmg (even some state otherwise), whats the problem? Predators SHOULD be better DPS than wizards in ANY situations! Why? Simple, we have only our DPS to bring to the group, no resist buffs, no power buffs, etc... just the plain DPS. This of course can be debated till the judgement day since its a matter of opinion of course. But really why all the hate? Are rangers soooo much _better_ than wizards in DPS? We make piercing/slashing (can even make some crushing) dmg. Those can be debuffed quite severly agaisnt eg. a raid mob (where the major _disparity_ seems to be). Wizzies make elemental dmg, their spells can be resisted, they are totally different dmg dealers than us. WHATS WRONG WITH THAT??? They can solo very efficiently, yes even with their paper armour. Roots/stuns/stifles are not something to be overlooked. Besides, our medium armour is not that good, try it out someday and you'll notice. Yes, we stand more hits than silk wearers, but then again if we stay on offensive mode, we dont... so in order to survive some hits (referring to group play here) we have to swith to defensive mode which drops our DPS (of course, thats the prize to pay).Our poisons are very powerful, they also cost quite much to buy. They also do like 30-50% of our dmg.... Dunno if some slight _balancing_ there would be needed or not, but i really dont understand the offhand not proccing poisons nerf they recently made. That was a slap against the other scouts who rely on their melee power more than the ranged one.... *shrug* maybe some solutions to even us being so overpowerd *cough* is eventually found... peace, out. [well, maybe 1 or 2 more sentences... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />]Sigh, tired of reading these kind of threads, had to respond something thou... Well, merry xmas (oh that went already) and even HAPPIER NEW YEAR to EVERYONE! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> ++Xan<div></div>

Fennir

12-27-2005, 08:23 PM

The funny thing is that I get jealous of a lot of casters who seem to land stuff on orange mobs 10x easier than I can. <div></div>

Sokolov

12-28-2005, 02:45 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:The funny thing is that I get jealous of a lot of casters who seem to land stuff on orange mobs 10x easier than I can. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I find it to be the opposite. I can take my ranger to fight mobs 8 or 10 levels higehr and still contribute some damage whereas my caster will get resisted nearly 100% of the time.</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-28-2005, 02:54 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>xandez wrote:Who is who in the top DPS ladder? Is this what this is about? Or is this class envy? I think wizards are fine, they have really nice utility which we dont have, they make nice dmg (even some state otherwise), whats the problem? Predators SHOULD be better DPS than wizards in ANY situations! Why? Simple, we have only our DPS to bring to the group, no resist buffs, no power buffs, etc... just the plain DPS. This of course can be debated till the judgement day since its a matter of opinion of course. But really why all the hate? Are rangers soooo much _better_ than wizards in DPS? We make piercing/slashing (can even make some crushing) dmg. Those can be debuffed quite severly agaisnt eg. a raid mob (where the major _disparity_ seems to be). Wizzies make elemental dmg, their spells can be resisted, they are totally different dmg dealers than us. WHATS WRONG WITH THAT??? They can solo very efficiently, yes even with their paper armour. Roots/stuns/stifles are not something to be overlooked. Besides, our medium armour is not that good, try it out someday and you'll notice. Yes, we stand more hits than silk wearers, but then again if we stay on offensive mode, we dont... so in order to survive some hits (referring to group play here) we have to swith to defensive mode which drops our DPS (of course, thats the prize to pay).Our poisons are very powerful, they also cost quite much to buy. They also do like 30-50% of our dmg.... Dunno if some slight _balancing_ there would be needed or not, but i really dont understand the offhand not proccing poisons nerf they recently made. That was a slap against the other scouts who rely on their melee power more than the ranged one.... *shrug* maybe some solutions to even us being so overpowerd *cough* is eventually found... peace, out. [well, maybe 1 or 2 more sentences... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />]Sigh, tired of reading these kind of threads, had to respond something thou... Well, merry xmas (oh that went already) and even HAPPIER NEW YEAR to EVERYONE! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> ++Xan<div></div><hr></blockquote>I find rangers have their own kind of utility. The ability to choose which resistances to debuff is beautiful, as well as the choice of stun, stifle or slow. These aren't abilities that will land you in an MT group, but are nonetheless important. I know I carry 7 different kinds of poison on me at all times and switch as the situation calls for it. As for the proc nerf (yes proc, NOT poison), recall that procs were increased for DW previously. Additonally, I personally find that scouts exxaggarate the cost of poisons. When it suits them they will state the highest cost on the broker, even if it is questionable that they ever actually purchase them at that price. How many high level rangers do NOT know SOME crafters who can help offset the cost from buying direct from a random alchemist?</span><div></div>

Crychtonn

12-28-2005, 03:14 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Additonally, I personally find that scouts exxaggarate the cost of poisons. When it suits them they will state the highest cost on the broker, even if it is questionable that they ever actually purchase them at that price. How many high level rangers do NOT know SOME crafters who can help offset the cost from buying direct from a random alchemist?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I used to spend 1.5-2p a week on poisons and that is with a very good alchemist connection where I was only paying 4-5g per vial. I do supply the rare vial for the Adeste and even the Foxglove lately since it's price had skyrocketed. If your in a raid guild and do instance runs daily it is very easy to spend 2p a week on poison even with a connection.</P> <P>Luckily they finally fixed poisons to not drop on death. This make a huge difference and will come close to knocking down my weekly poison cost by 60-70%. While still an expense poisons are no longer the huge cash drain they used to be.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Sokolov

12-28-2005, 08:25 AM

<div></div>So you supply everything and still pay 5g per vial? Doesn't really cost more than 1g each to make, ya know. Now, as a crafter I believe we are entitled to profit, but for one and one-third combines per vial, a 4g profit is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good. EDIT: This also means that perhaps I should raise my prices on bottle combines for random alchemists if that kind of margin is considered good by consumers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 PM</span>

Fennir

12-28-2005, 10:22 AM

I pay 4g per legendary vial (i provide the vials), and 5g for the handcrafted ones (I don't make those vials), and order 20 adeste's, 20 phantasmic visions, and 10 glox each time. I hate crafting at this point, honestly, and figure anyone who is willing to sit there and make me 50 poisons at a time (plus various potions I order for my guild) deserves the pittance. 1-2p is like one day of instances at lvl 60. That's 1-2p a week that no caster will ever have to pay. <div></div>

Crychtonn

12-28-2005, 11:09 PM

<P>I may end up paying a little more but part of that is me tipping. He really only charges me 3g per poison but like Tobias I tend to order in bulk. My orders are usually a minimum of 30-40 vials of various poisons. And considering how hard it is to find an Alchemist that will make big orders like that the same day or at the latest the next day. I don't mind giving him a decent tip. He's even been nice enough to deliver poisons to me in a raid zone lol. Now that's good service <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

Deml

12-29-2005, 01:32 AM

<P>Prices vary per server but from talking in the world ranger channel, the general price on the broker for Adeste (Legendary t6 damage poison) seems to be 10-15g per vial. If I supply the loam or vials I'm still paying 5g a pop to have an alchy friend make them. That, also, seems to be a standard that scouts are paying for vials of poison, and that is just for the legendary. The last time I ordered poisons to be made, I spent 1.5p to have about 45-50 vials made for me, this included 6 adeste, 2 gaige and the rest were phantasmic visions and shissar. That supply would have lasted me about 2 weeks prior to the LU18 change.</P> <P>As for ranger utility, you're confusing a couple things here. Yes, we can choose which resists we want to debuff, but to swap means you cancel one poison and apply another if you're doing it per fight. That means you go through poisons faster which refers to my 1st paragraph and translates to you spending more money on poisons. As for the stun, stifle, slow poisons, those don't work on epic mobs, or anything you would need a MT group for, so you can't really count those in. I don't even carry slow poisons with me anymore. I use stun's for heroics and no misc poison for epic targets.</P> <DIV>On the topic of Ranger's doing 1200-1400 dps, get over it. Before you continue whining about Ranger's doing that, check your raid setup and just look at HOW Ranger's can pull that off. We had our brigand on a raid for the first time the other night and ALL melee classes, not just Ranger's, had their DPS jump by 300 on every fight, just because of his debuffs. Ranger's are pulling off those numbers because the mobs resists are being debuffed so much they hit for more. If you want to complain, try complaining to your debuffers to drop elemental resists on mobs. Who knows, maybe play nice with your Ranger buddies and see if one or two of them won't step into range to drop Forester's Noose (does 1632 heat debuff at master 1) on the mob for you, then you could see your spells hitting for more as well. My guild wizards don't complain about me just for that reason, I try to keep Noose on targets at all times. Add that onto the Coercer debuff that drops all resists 800 and you get a nice drop in fire resists, which means your spells land harder. I've even been known to drop my poison resist debuff and use a fire resist debuff on mobs that I can't damage with poison. Debuffs will increase your DPS far more than anything else.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Demlar on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

Sokolov

12-29-2005, 01:36 AM

No, of course they don't count. But then neither should Coercer's as most of their arsenal can't even touch epics, etc. As I was saying, people will always take the extreme of their situations and make it sound worse than it is while elevating everyone else, that's my whole point. And I with you on the crafting thing, Tobias. I mostly hide on my alts now =/ <div></div>

Crychtonn

12-29-2005, 01:47 AM

<P>The 25% DPS reduction poison and the Stifle poison both work on Epic's. The Stifle poison with it's pathetic number of proc's and very short Stifle is pretty worthless though. The 25% DPS reduction poison on the other hand is standard gear for raids.</P> <P> </P>

Jay

12-29-2005, 03:14 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR>As I was saying, people will always take the extreme of their situations and make it sound worse than it is while elevating everyone else, that's my whole point.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Including you, right?</P> <P>I do agree, anyone who is put on the defensive will likely do what they can to avert the accusations, regardless of what class they play. But this is an elementary, obvious point. Nobody is going to find objective truth in a player forum for any game.</P> <P>You're right, many casters and others have come to our forum to present their laundry list of problems and tell us how great we have it. And you know what? We DO have it pretty good, and we know it - we're very thankful, after being in a fairly broken state for a few months. But we do NOT have it as good as a lot of wizards and warlocks seem to want to believe. We get told we have more utility than a wizard - that's just plain silly. We get told we all have DPS in the thousands - also not true. So we correct these assumptions that get made about our class because we know more about it than someone who doesn't play it. (And yes, I know you do, and congrats for that - hopefully you have the experience to realize how silly some of those statements really are.) </P> <P>Yes, some rangers exaggerate the cost of poisons and other factors. That's lamentable, but unfortunately it's expected. They're only human, just like the wizards who are disappointed that they were outdamaged by one ranger on one raid and extrapolate that experience into a gamewide rule that always happens everywhere. Lamentable, but expected. </P> <P>There are clearly some significant balance issues in the game, and I'm sure our class won't be exempt from all future changes. I'm fine with it, personally - I don't feel entitled to be extremely powerful, I just want my character to fulfill the purpose for which he was designed. The rest is just icing. </P>

Prandtl

12-29-2005, 04:00 AM

<P>A long time ago I started my first online role-playing game; a MUD call The Final Challenge. This was a PK MUD, and a certain class was getting the wrath of all the players for their player killing accumen. In this game Shaman were not the benevolent healers of EQ2. Rather they were very powerful casters who happened to have the strongest DD spell in the game, the dreaded <EM>SOUL RIFT</EM>.</P> <P>So of course the call came out to nerf those dastardly Shamen. 1st time I had ever heard the word, but you just instictively knew what it meant</P> <P>One of the guild leaders (I'm proud to say my own guild's leader) penned this in response and I've thought of it ever since, whenever someone wants a class nerfed.</P> <P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, it was nice to feel that I have friends, coming to work this morning and<BR>finding 40 messages unopened. However, 35 were about TFC, and I think 85% of<BR>them were in regards to the shaman controversy. Wouldn't it be awesome if there<BR>was this much passion about every role-playing issue on TFC?<BR><BR>Anyway, I have come up with a list of things the Implementors can and should do<BR>IMMEDIATELY to solve this crisis:<BR><BR>TOP TEN WAYS TO DEAL WITH THE SHAMAN DILEMMA<BR><BR>10. Change TFC to have just one class: shaman. You could dual if you wanted<BR>but only to another type of shaman. Everyone would be on equal footing so no<BR>arguments.<BR><BR>9. Change the spell 'soul rift' to 'sole rift'. This spell makes the victim's<BR>feet hurt really badly. They couldn't run more than 2 rooms away before<BR>tremendous blistering set in. Clerics could have anti-spell: Dr. Scholls'<BR>Healing Pads<BR><BR>8. Change the spell 'soul rift' to 'sole rift'. This would cause fish to slam<BR>against the victim's armor (suggested this one just for the halibut).<BR><BR>7. Change the spell 'soul rift' to 'sole rift'. This spell would cause only<BR>(solely) the caster to spontaneously combust. Probably wouldn't be used very<BR>often.<BR><BR>6. Change the spell 'soul rift' to 'soul riff'. Amazing sounding blues music<BR>would flow from the caster's ears, and would lull the victim into a false sense<BR>of inner peace. Victim could not cast aggressive spell for 8 ticks.<BR><BR>5. Take away the shaman's spells and let them wear armor and use any weapon<BR>they'd like. Also change their max str to 999kg and give them skills like<BR>dodge, second attack, and enhanced damage. This idea is kind of radical but<BR>sounds like it could be a cool class, doesn't it?<BR><BR>4. Change shaman's role to fashion coordinater. Add spells like 'make scarf',<BR>'make shawl', and 'make hat' so that they could accessorize more.<BR><BR>3. Don't allow PKs...or killing of any monsters. Spells wouldn't be needed<BR>then and we'd have a much more peaceful world, where you could get experience<BR>only by getting a job in Midgaard or your home town, learning a trade, and<BR>becoming a valuable member of society.<BR><BR>2. Only allow shamen to PK other shamen of the same alignment, same level, and<BR>same name. This will cut down on the number of people who are being hunted and<BR>along with it, the number of complaints. (except from shamen)<BR><BR>1. Change the maximum level that a shaman could attain to 5. They'd be the<BR>kings of the arena, rifting spectators and fans to the bowels of hell, but<BR>wouldn't be a big threat to those players, say, level 9 and up.<BR><BR>I feel that if at least 6 of these changes are implemented within the next 24<BR>hours, total chaos will be averted and we will once again all be able to enjoy<BR>ourselves.<BR><BR>Coleman, God of Mirth<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats pretty much summed up my view of calling for Nerfs on others ever since then.</P> <P>BTW, the shaman were not nerfed because a new bad-azz class came along. The dreaded Warrior/Cleric. Now those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ers needed a serious nerf!!</P> <P>lighten up, have fun, and remember... Lets be careful out there</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Prandtl on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

Poochymama

12-29-2005, 04:21 AM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>xandez wrote:<BR>Who is who in the top DPS ladder? Is this what this is about? Or is this class envy? I think wizards are fine, they have really nice utility which we dont have, they make nice dmg (even some state otherwise), whats the problem?<BR><BR>Predators SHOULD be better DPS than wizards in ANY situations! Why? <FONT color=#ff0000>Wrong Moorgard even stated that on average wizards/warlocks will have higher dps output than rangers and assasins, but that it would be small since they are in the same tier. </FONT>Simple, we have only our DPS to bring to the group, no resist buffs, no power buffs, etc... just the plain DPS. This of course can be debated till the judgement day since its a matter of opinion of course.<BR><BR>But really why all the hate? Are rangers soooo much _better_ than wizards in DPS? Yes about double (1200-1600) whereas wizards are <FONT color=#ff0000>(600-800)</FONT>We make piercing/slashing (can even make some crushing) dmg. Those can be debuffed quite severly agaisnt eg. a raid mob (where the major _disparity_ seems to be). Wizzies make elemental dmg, their spells can be resisted, they are totally different dmg dealers than us. WHATS WRONG WITH THAT???<BR><BR>They can solo very efficiently, yes even with their paper armour. Roots/stuns/stifles are not something to be overlooked. Besides, our medium armour is not that good, try it out someday and you'll notice. Yes, we stand more hits than silk wearers, but then again if we stay on offensive mode, we dont... so in order to survive some hits (referring to group play here) we have to swith to defensive mode which drops our DPS (of course, thats the prize to pay).<BR><BR>Our poisons are very powerful, they also cost quite much to buy. They also do like 30-50% of our dmg.... Dunno if some slight _balancing_ there would be needed or not, but i really dont understand the offhand not proccing poisons nerf they recently made. That was a slap against the other scouts who rely on their melee power more than the ranged one.... *shrug* maybe some solutions to even us being so overpowerd *cough* is eventually found... peace, out. [well, maybe 1 or 2 more sentences... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />]<BR><BR>Sigh, tired of reading these kind of threads, had to respond something thou... Well, merry xmas (oh that went already) and even HAPPIER NEW YEAR to EVERYONE! <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>++Xan<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

Sokolov

12-29-2005, 06:26 AM

<span></span><span><blockquote>Crychtonn wrote:<p>The 25% DPS reduction poison and the Stifle poison both work on Epic's. The Stifle poison with it's pathetic number of proc's and very short Stifle is pretty worthless though. The 25% DPS reduction poison on the other hand is standard gear for raids.</p> <hr></blockquote> Case in point. This was actually an outright lie by the other poster then, not just an exxaggeration. I didn't really know, because, while I do PLAY a ranger, I haven't really raided with the ranger. I also do not see why you would have to change resistance poison during the same raid. Only the actual target really needs that extra debuff, not yard trash, but if you WANT to waste poisons.... Oh, and last I checked, resistance debuffs were made from COMMON loam and not rare loam, so they should be much more affordable anyway! </span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-29-2005, 06:42 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:As I was saying, people will always take the extreme of their situations and make it sound worse than it is while elevating everyone else, that's my whole point. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Including you, right? </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I am not sure what you are referring to in particular, but yes, I am suspectible to this as well.</font> </p> <p>I do agree, anyone who is put on the defensive will likely do what they can to avert the accusations, regardless of what class they play. But this is an elementary, obvious point. Nobody is going to find objective truth in a player forum for any game.</p> <p>You're right, many casters and others have come to our forum to present their laundry list of problems and tell us how great we have it. And you know what? We DO have it pretty good, and we know it - we're very thankful, after being in a fairly broken state for a few months. But we do NOT have it as good as a lot of wizards and warlocks seem to want to believe. We get told we have more utility than a wizard - that's just plain silly. We get told we all have DPS in the thousands - also not true. So we correct these assumptions that get made about our class because we know more about it than someone who doesn't play it. (And yes, I know you do, and congrats for that - hopefully you have the experience to realize how silly some of those statements really are.) </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I do not recall people telling you you have more utility than a wizard. Rather, *I* did suggest that Rangers do not bring "only DPS" to the table (not sure who said this, but someone did earlier which is why I mentioned the many different poisons a ranger can use that are not directly tied to DPS).</font> </p> <p>Yes, some rangers exaggerate the cost of poisons and other factors. That's lamentable, but unfortunately it's expected. They're only human, just like the wizards who are disappointed that they were outdamaged by one ranger on one raid and extrapolate that experience into a gamewide rule that always happens everywhere. Lamentable, but expected. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">In my experience, I have not really seen any instance (where it mattered) that a Sorcerer could outdamage a Ranger. And if it was just one raid, I doubt there would be such an uproar about it. Likewise with assassins. On the contrary, RANGERS would be the one complaining instead if they could only do the type of damage other T1 DPS classes do on an occasional raid. Wait, wasn't that the situation pre-LU13? I have rangers here telling me they posted constructive feedback trying to get their class improved, and now other people doing the same is "lamentable?" Oh right, they are "whining" about it, not being constructive. </font> </p> <p>There are clearly some significant balance issues in the game, and I'm sure our class won't be exempt from all future changes. I'm fine with it, personally - I don't feel entitled to be extremely powerful, I just want my character to fulfill the purpose for which he was designed. The rest is just icing. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I suppose in the end I am just whining about whining, which isn't constructive either =D But it does provide something to do while my ship on EVE Online is warping to the next jumpgate, or while waiting for someone's stupid PP's timer to run out. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">But good points here in the last part. I agree with that =D</font> </p> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

tharvey

12-29-2005, 11:45 AM

<DIV><FONT size=2>Wait, so people are complaining that certain classes do not match their "damage tier" because of others' buffs and debuffs? Am I just crazy or is that completely off the wall? If I do a ceratin amount of damage, and SupportClass X increases that by 50%, the extra damage should actually be credited to the support class, not to me. We've even been told that "indirect" DPS is part of how they calculate the damage output of a class - enchanter and bard haste, for instance, counts (to SoE) for the enchanter or bards DPS, regardless of who is actually dealing the damage. And I'm sure from the perspective of the support classes, they couldn't care less HOW the indirect damage is generated, whether it credits that damage to mages or scouts or priests or whoever. Judge the "damage tier" of a class by what IT brings, not by how it appears to perform when all the support is thrown in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If there's any kind of problem here at all it's a desirability one: a raid leader would logically choose classes for which more buffs / debuffs would help, assuming that there's enough of the support classes to go around. But the problem isn't that rangers, warlocks, wizards, etc, aren't balanced - the problem is that support is skewed in one direction or the other. If anything needs to be adjusted, it's the support, not the damage classes. Adjusting the actual damage classes assuming optimal (i.e. raid) setup is a recipe for disaster in groups and solo, where there's no grounds for assuming that support will be present. It would hardly be fair to have unequal T1 damage classes self-buffed or with "average" group support just so they could all turn up exactly the same parse numbers on raids. Does it really matter who gets the big numbers next to their name if the classes are directly contributing the same amount of damage, and the support classes are buffing one more than the other?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>

roblinb

12-29-2005, 04:57 PM

<DIV><STRONG>"7-15 GP for a T6 poison adds up, especially if you liek to be prepared.</STRONG> "</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Huh? You do realize that T6 is Fabled, right? If you're only paying 7-15 gold for a Fabled poison as a level 52 ranger then you need to let us all know where to get it...</DIV>

Ranja

12-29-2005, 07:41 PM

<P>Do you play a scout? T6 is not fabled. There are no fabled poisons - the best you can get is legendary made from the loam of a rare. These legendary poisons depending on the server can go from anywhere between 12g - 17g. Since they fixed the poison bug on dying it is not that much of a drain anymore but before that I could go through 1 p of poisons a night easily.</P> <P> </P> <P>The point is there are no fabled poisons just legendary. Just because they are T6 does not make them fabled.</P> <P> </P> <P>Elbryan</P> <P>57 Ranger</P> <P>Blind Guardiands</P>

Jay

12-29-2005, 08:53 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I do not recall people telling you you have more utility than a wizard. Rather, *I* did suggest that Rangers do not bring "only DPS" to the table (not sure who said this, but someone did earlier which is why I mentioned the many different poisons a ranger can use that are not directly tied to DPS).</FONT></P> <P>It's been said a few times in various threads in various forums. Like you're saying, people in the middle of a big class balance debate tend to get tunnelvision (myself included) and the grass becomes infinitely greener. I've had to remind wizards that they have things like resist buffs, strength buffs, health-power conversion, and powerfeeding, in addition to all the utility we get besides Tracking. You're right, we do get to use poisons that can apply some cool effects, and that's really the only way we can bring something other than damage to a situation. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In my experience, I have not really seen any instance (where it mattered) that a Sorcerer could outdamage a Ranger. And if it was just one raid, I doubt there would be such an uproar about it. Likewise with assassins. On the contrary, RANGERS would be the one complaining instead if they could only do the type of damage other T1 DPS classes do on an occasional raid. Wait, wasn't that the situation pre-LU13? </FONT></P> <P>Yep, it was, and I don't think any rangers posted on the mage forums about how mages needed to be nerfed. That's the problem most of us have, even while recognizing the need for balance. These discussions are sometimes mature and respectful, but all too often they're just flamewars about who has the better class and who needs to be nerfed. We got a huge boost with LU13 and we know it - no one here is trying to hide that we're a powerful class now. Most of us who take two minutes to think about it will agree that sorcerors and assassins need the same kind of help. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I have rangers here telling me they posted constructive feedback trying to get their class improved, and now other people doing the same is "lamentable?" Oh right, they are "whining" about it, not being constructive. </FONT></P> <P>Some of them are being constructive (and kudos to those folks), some aren't. Unfortunately, it's the ones that are starting flamewars that get the most attention, and have contributed to the perception of "hate" b/w the classes. So yes, some are whining about it and they get the kind of response that anyone gets when they troll another classes' forum to complain about that class.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I suppose in the end I am just whining about whining, which isn't constructive either =D But it does provide something to do while my ship on EVE Online is warping to the next jumpgate, or while waiting for someone's stupid PP's timer to run out. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>But good points here in the last part. I agree with that =D</FONT></P> <P>That's nice. Personally I'm just trying to enjoy it while it lasts. I never played EQ1 (thank god) but I view this moment in the sun as payback for what sounds like years of gimpery. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <HR> </SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deml

12-29-2005, 09:09 PM

<P><SPAN>Case in point. This was actually an outright lie by the other poster then, not just an exxaggeration. I didn't really know, because, while I do PLAY a ranger, I haven't really raided with the ranger.<BR><BR>I also do not see why you would have to change resistance poison during the same raid. Only the actual target really needs that extra debuff, not yard trash, but if you WANT to waste poisons....<BR><BR>Oh, and last I checked, resistance debuffs were made from COMMON loam and not rare loam, so they should be much more affordable anyway!</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>[] <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217301205" target=_blank><SPAN>Sokolov</SPAN></A> - 60 Jeweler | 46 Warlock - <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target=_blank><SPAN>New Outriders</SPAN></A> []<BR>[] <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=356952205" target=_blank><SPAN>Loklan</SPAN></A> - 52 Berserker - <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target=_blank><SPAN>New Outriders</SPAN></A> []<BR>[] <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=331515205" target=_blank><SPAN>Maridith</SPAN></A> - 60 Defiler - <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target=_blank><SPAN>New Outriders</SPAN></A> []<BR>[] <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217347205" target=_blank><SPAN>Rebekah</SPAN></A> - 43 Ranger - <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target=_blank><SPAN>New Outriders</SPAN></A> []<BR>Happy Frostfell! </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>First off, it wasn’t an outright lie on my part.<SPAN> </SPAN>I have never used Hoorendous Atrophy, never even seen a vial of it on any broker at any time on Grobb.<SPAN> </SPAN>Therefore, I didn’t even know it existed.<SPAN> </SPAN>After reading this thread about it working on epics I went to eq2alchemy.com and looked it up.<SPAN> </SPAN>After this post I’m making one on my guild boards to have some made for future use.<SPAN> </SPAN>It was lack of knowledge on my part about 1 poison (and I’m not ashamed to admit I didn’t know about it), not a lie.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Put on 1 debuff poison, it will last past more than 1 named mob.<SPAN> </SPAN>If the damage poisons work on the first mob then the Shissar I usually have running if fine.<SPAN> </SPAN>If the mob is completely immune to damage poisons then it would be in my best interest to switch to something like a heat/cold resist, slashing resist, piercing resist poison to increase the dps of the raid as a whole.<SPAN> </SPAN>If Ranger’s have the utility you keep coming here screaming we have, then changing poisons like this would be a common occurrence and would drive the amount of money we spend on poisons up even more, again shooting a hole in your theory that we don’t pay nearly as much as we say we do.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>You’re right, resistance debuff poisons are common and don’t need a rare loam.<SPAN> </SPAN>As for them being more affordable, come to Grobb and check the broker.<SPAN> </SPAN>Both in Qeynos and on the fence you can never find any debuff poisons anymore, people are only selling Adeste at 10g a vial.<SPAN> </SPAN>When you special order the debuff poisons you are still paying 5-6g per vial of debuffs.<SPAN> </SPAN>It’s all based on server economy, not what we’d like it to be or what we think it should cost us.<SPAN> </SPAN>The simple fact that I know non-rare poisons and debuffs can be made for about 1 gold per vial is why I started an alchemist alt.</SPAN></P> <P> </P>

Jay

12-29-2005, 09:18 PM

<P>Also, it's worth noting that special effects poisons (like the stifle you mentioned) do not last long at all - maybe 3-5 mobs, depending. So maintaining a constant application of stun or stifle poison does get costly. Yes, debuffs are made from common ingredients and generally aren't as expensive as Legendary poisons, but we're still talking about an average of around 5g+ from what I can tell. </P> <P>I'm not sure what the point of all this is, but yes, we do spend money on poisons. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm not complaining about it, myself, b/c I like the flexibility and effectiveness that I can gain by investing in good ones. But until you're playing in tier 6 and raiding with your ranger, you'll just have to believe us when we say that the poisons can get expensive. (Though I understand and agree with your point about certain people exaggerating those costs.) </P>

Saihung23

12-29-2005, 11:41 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The_Wind wrote:<BR>This is a post of mine from earlier, I'm gonna copy and paste it here, and then give you the link. <BR><BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> I'm through with them. All of them. I'm a ranger. I am above this. I will take what is dealt, and I will make the best of it. I will overcome such petty desires. I am a Ranger, and I will live simply as such. We did it once before, when wizards were unbeatable, we continued to strive hoping for greatness. We went from groups despising us, to groups rejoicing at our arrival. If we get nerfed, we will take it in stride, make the most of it, and still show them we are greater. Its what we do, survive. The only difference is we, as Rangers, will continue to stick together. Let the petty squable over who should be greater. We have better things to do than pity the weak minded and jealous. Let them drown in their own sorrows. Some of the masses cannot be saved, its not evil, its just fact.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=16012&view=by_date_ascending&page=2<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE</P> <P> </P> <P>I am tired of it <period> </P> <P>The incessant arguing. Wizards want to prove how much more mature they are than other classes? Then take your posts and criticism of the Ranger class back to your own forum. Make your stand for your class there. Dont indulge your own selfishness by coming here to flame us for being content. Dont come here with your ranger alt to prove how unbiased you are in your cries for uberness. </P> <P>Ranger forums are not the battleground for fixes to wizards. I take exception to all of it. How dare you come in and create strife where peace resided? I for one dont give a whit about whether or not rangers get nerfed (it happens all of the time), I do care whether or not a class is lobbying for it and that is how you wizards come off as sounding. Whiny, selfish, and mean spirited.</P> <P>I for one never encouraged rangers to post in your forums when you began posting in ours. I also never took my wizzie alt and used her as proof that I must be right about MY views. In addition, I see extremely little of that going on in our forums. I do see wizards doing that. In our forums, it is generally frowned upon when someone makes disparaging remarks about any classes, especially scout classes for obvious reasons, ie they are our cousins. When rangers were not where they should be in terms of DPS, I did not go out and immediately make a wizard so I could feel "uber" again.</P> <P>I play my toon because I have a deep feel for rangers. This post may have generalizations in it about wizards as a whole, and I understand that just like I am with my ranger, some wizards are with their toon. So, please, if you wish to reply, try not to lecture me about this. Also, if you wish to debate...fine...there are other places to debate this than our class forums...like the char. forum, or in PM.</P> <P>Just do all rangers the big favor of leaving our class forums to our class. </P> <P>Peace Health and Happiness</P> <P>Saihung </P> <P>P.S. The problems I have with some of the wizards does not change the fact that I WANT them brought in line with where they should be...I dont want to see any class doing less in groups than they should be able to.<BR></P>

tweety1972

12-30-2005, 12:26 AM

<P>It's funny, i can't find a group unless it's got a wizard or warlock in it. and i still get the..............</P> <P>they /ooc 2 LFG 26-35 pst</P> <P>I /tell I would like to join if its ok</P> <P>they /ooc 2 LFG 26-35 MT pst</P> <P>Not even a no thanks just ignore. ty to all the other players that helped me along tho and they are from all classes, just a little wierd sometimes.</P> <P>(p.s. how can I complain when i can get 800 or so dps in the first melee at level 26?)</P>

Saihung23

12-30-2005, 12:26 AM

<P>I just want to point out something...most of this friction between Rangers and Wizards started because of a thread started by a ranger "bragging" about solo'ing triple up yellows (if I remember)</P> <P>Now check this out:</P> <P> </P> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=19521#M19521" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=19521#M19521</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will likely be warned about linking to another post but I have to show that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They want to use our forums against us...well right there poochymama says she can solo ^^^ yellow heroics. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shame that you dont have a leg to stand on. You argue for uberness...you got it pal. Now go home and solo some more ^^^ yellow heroics, and dont worry....we wont hold it against you that your arguments are hypocritical in origin and nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh...one more thing...I like dots....:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just go in peace and fight for your class fixes with honor in your own forum....people get banned for posting food concerns in the wrong forum...I would not like to see that happen here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(cripes I am getting to be a mean old bastidge...I hate fighting/arguing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung</DIV>

Sokolov

12-30-2005, 01:43 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div></div> <p><span>Case in point. This was actually an outright lie by the other poster then, not just an exxaggeration. I didn't really know, because, while I do PLAY a ranger, I haven't really raided with the ranger.I also do not see why you would have to change resistance poison during the same raid. Only the actual target really needs that extra debuff, not yard trash, but if you WANT to waste poisons....Oh, and last I checked, resistance debuffs were made from COMMON loam and not rare loam, so they should be much more affordable anyway!</span></p> <p><span>[] <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217301205" target="_blank"><span>Sokolov</span></a> - 60 Jeweler | 46 Warlock - <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target="_blank"><span>New Outriders</span></a> [][] <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=356952205" target="_blank"><span>Loklan</span></a> - 52 Berserker - <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target="_blank"><span>New Outriders</span></a> [][] <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=331515205" target="_blank"><span>Maridith</span></a> - 60 Defiler - <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target="_blank"><span>New Outriders</span></a> [][] <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217347205" target="_blank"><span>Rebekah</span></a> - 43 Ranger - <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=148205" target="_blank"><span>New Outriders</span></a> []Happy Frostfell! </span></p> <p><span></span> </p> <p><span>First off, it wasn’t an outright lie on my part.<span> </span>I have never used Hoorendous Atrophy, never even seen a vial of it on any broker at any time on Grobb.<span> </span>Therefore, I didn’t even know it existed.<span> </span>After reading this thread about it working on epics I went to eq2alchemy.com and looked it up.<span> </span>After this post I’m making one on my guild boards to have some made for future use.<span> </span>It was lack of knowledge on my part about 1 poison (and I’m not ashamed to admit I didn’t know about it), not a lie.</span></p> <p><span></span> <span>Put on 1 debuff poison, it will last past more than 1 named mob.<span> </span>If the damage poisons work on the first mob then the Shissar I usually have running if fine.<span> </span>If the mob is completely immune to damage poisons then it would be in my best interest to switch to something like a heat/cold resist, slashing resist, piercing resist poison to increase the dps of the raid as a whole.<span> </span>If Ranger’s have the utility you keep coming here screaming we have, then changing poisons like this would be a common occurrence and would drive the amount of money we spend on poisons up even more, again shooting a hole in your theory that we don’t pay nearly as much as we say we do.</span></p> <p><span></span> <span>You’re right, resistance debuff poisons are common and don’t need a rare loam.<span> </span>As for them being more affordable, come to Grobb and check the broker.<span> </span>Both in Qeynos and on the fence you can never find any debuff poisons anymore, people are only selling Adeste at 10g a vial.<span> </span>When you special order the debuff poisons you are still paying 5-6g per vial of debuffs.<span> </span>It’s all based on server economy, not what we’d like it to be or what we think it should cost us.<span> </span>The simple fact that I know non-rare poisons and debuffs can be made for about 1 gold per vial is why I started an alchemist alt.</span></p> <hr></blockquote> First, so since you hadn't actually used NOR seen a stifle poison.... you decided to simply ASSUME they couldn't be used on epics and stated that AS FACT to defend your position. But it is NOT a lie? I am not sure how that works, but alright. Next time you don't know something, instead of pretending like you do and using it as fact let's just go with what you do know, eh? Then no one can call you a liar. Second, I am not coming here "screaming" that rangers have utility. God, where do you get this stuff? I was simply countering the fact that someone said "Rangers only have DPS," (paraphrased) which is an ABSURD statement. Period. Nothing more. When *I* play MY ranger, I don't just do DPS for my group. And I SUGGEST that any ranger who ONLY does DPS may not be living up to the full potential of the class. Third, "check the broker?" EVERYONE knows prices on broker can't be trusted and that direct orders from crafters almost always gets you a better price, usually significantly so. Fourth, from your statemnt about poisons, it seems you do not understand that you do not need to "switch" from damage poisons to resist poisons. They STACK. </span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-30-2005, 01:45 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<p>Also, it's worth noting that special effects poisons (like the stifle you mentioned) do not last long at all - maybe 3-5 mobs, depending. So maintaining a constant application of stun or stifle poison does get costly. Yes, debuffs are made from common ingredients and generally aren't as expensive as Legendary poisons, but we're still talking about an average of around 5g+ from what I can tell. </p> <p>I'm not sure what the point of all this is, but yes, we do spend money on poisons. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm not complaining about it, myself, b/c I like the flexibility and effectiveness that I can gain by investing in good ones. But until you're playing in tier 6 and raiding with your ranger, you'll just have to believe us when we say that the poisons can get expensive. (Though I understand and agree with your point about certain people exaggerating those costs.) </p><hr></blockquote>Well, in my defense, I do craft the bottles and vials and work with an alchemist on poisons, up to and including T6. So the costs involved are not a secret to me despite not being able to use them myself.</span><div></div>

Teksun

12-30-2005, 02:15 AM

I don't think alchemist profit was the gist of Kaeros' statement. The point is: How much do Wizzy's spend to do they're craft? There is nothing more disheartening then spending 25gp on a poison for a raid, and seeing that resist flag fly up. <div></div>

Saihung23

12-30-2005, 02:47 AM

Time for me to log and go home! Time to go group with some Wizards and show the other classes what we can do working together ><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is how it should be...wizards and rangers united against the evils of freeport <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God I hope they fix wizards soon or just do something to appease them...</DIV>

Gareorn

12-30-2005, 02:53 AM

<DIV>The longer this thread goes on, the more convinced I am that people who constantly complain about class balance are merely compensating for other, more personal, shortcomings. Those who go as far as to take their complaints to another class forum have even more to compensate for. And, those who take their complaints to another class forum because of an unwarranted perception that a third and seperate class is conspiring to keep them down are... Well... uncultivable.:smileytongue:</DIV>

Sokolov

12-30-2005, 02:56 AM

Yes, let's all discuss class balance in insolation, because it only concerns one class at a time, and while we are at it, let's start segregating our community by class and only respond to those who are of the same background as us because Antonia knows they have no right to be posting in "our" board. *rolls his eyes* <div></div>

Gareorn

12-30-2005, 03:19 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>Yes, let's all discuss class balance in insolation, because it only concerns one class at a time, and while we are at it, let's start segregating our community by class and only respond to those who are of the same background as us because Antonia knows they have no right to be posting in "our" board.<BR><BR>*rolls his eyes*<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's how you interpreted my post? I am seldom amazed and often amused, but you got me there. Wow.

meest

12-30-2005, 03:24 AM

I'm sensing a jelousy attack. Since my piece of cake is bigger than theirs they're telling mom on me. So next time they should get the bigger piece. Dang, Welcome to life, get a helmet. *Goes and eats his cake* <div></div>

Jay

12-30-2005, 04:22 AM

<P>So stun, stifle, and debuff poisons = utility? Cool! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>And here I thought we were talking about class abilities, not accessories. It's like saying that all fighters can invis b/c they can equip a totem. Hell, ALL classes have a ton of utility once you factor in equippable items. </P> <P>/shrug</P><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:25 PM</span>

12-30-2005, 06:27 AM

<P>Anyone seen the movie "The Castle" and the warden tells the guard to only give the inmates one basketball?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I think soe maybe trying the same thing<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

The_Wind

12-30-2005, 07:20 AM

RE: Sokolov<div></div>Not about isolation, segregation maybe. But not our fault. After all, this is the RANGER forum, and in keeping on topic, with that, discussing wizard imbalance isn't quite a ranger type conversation. Granted it may involve us, but what it all comes down to is wizards having issues. As far as them having no right, well no, they don't have a right to post in our forums about their shortcomings. They have their own for that, and plenty of other "general" forums as well. This is a class specific forum, with information pertaining to the Ranger class. Why should we have to defend ourselves against every verbal assault and frothy jealous remark of some wizard who got angry that he wasn't the best of the best? Its got nothing to do with us. I'm not saying you're forbidden to post on here, but if its got nothing to do with rangers, then quite frankly, its got nothing to do with THIS forum. But the segregation was caused by Sony, to allow others of the same backgrounds a common place to discuss issues, questions and whatnot regarding their "common background." I'm sorry if you feel we should all be meshed, but snide little remarks like this one are best left to yourself. <div></div>Edited due to the lack of quotations working for me, and so that someone didn't feel i had targeted them incorrectly. This was all directed to you Sokolov.<p>Message Edited by The_Wind on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 PM</span>

Stormhawk

12-30-2005, 02:47 PM

<div></div><div></div>Why not just make a potion that a wizard/war can drink that gives them a magical aura of spell procage similiar to the Troubador buff. Given that spells occur less frequently then combat attacks, reduce the number of total procs to allow basically the same amount of "running time" in comparison to damage poison. They would not recieve debuff versions of it, just purely damage, because they already have more utility then us in spell form. BUT instead of the debuff potion, they will recieve a aggro decreaser version. They will be locked into a resist type for the procs, lets say magic. Let them feel the utter joy of being forced to spend money on DPS. <div></div><p>On that note, I was under the impression that part of ranger utility was flexability. That is pretty much all we have in terms of utility. We rely a lot on other classes helping us to get to the DPS we get to. But again, that falls back on flexability. It is the only thing we have outside of damage. <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>12-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 AM</span>

Sokolov

12-30-2005, 02:54 PM

First, I don't even SEE a wizard hate thread (whatever that really means, but it seems that from earlier in this thread, "hate" means calling for a nerf, which is just absurd if you subscribe to the school of thought that nerfing is just one edge of the balancing knife) on this forum, so I don't know what the gripe here is about. Personally, I think it's a pretty poor attitude to not care about class balance as long as you are happy with your class. I mean, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], who wouldn't be happy to be sitting at the top of the DPS pyramid? But all this means is you have the luxury of taking the moral highground and sounding all haughty when you denounce the other people who are complaining. "We never complained like that," you say with your chin up. Ultimately I find it selfish and egotistical and an extension of "Don't nerf us, fix other classes if they need it" phenomenom wherein class X wants to be left alone because they don't want to lose their stuff and are usually unwilling to admit even the possibility that their class might be the odd one out or even be a part of the problem. It's a DPS TIER people, not single DPS classes in insolation. Again, I am not saying rangers should be nerfed, it's the attitude I am concerned with here. Heck, I am starting to hate you and I don't play a wizard, I play a ranger! <div></div>

Sokolov

12-30-2005, 02:59 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>So stun, stifle, and debuff poisons = utility? Cool! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p> <p>And here I thought we were talking about class abilities, not accessories. It's like saying that all fighters can invis b/c they can equip a totem. Hell, ALL classes have a ton of utility once you factor in equippable items. </p> <p>/shrug</p><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">12-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Aw, come on, what are you trying to pull here? Everyone can use invis totems, thus it really isn't a change in utility for any class, that's elementary. It is also expected that the ability for people to use these items decreases the utility of classes that can group invis or invis other people. That's also easy to see. The fact is tho that 4 subclasses in the game can utilize poisons and therefore this gives them some factor of utility based on what those poisons can do. These are not items readily available to every class, heck, they are actually class restricted right on the item! Utility should not be measured in whether you use them, but whether you have the potential to utilize them. Anyway, personally, I dislike the term utility and its general definition. People will always, like Jay here, find some way to twist it and say "that's not utility." The point is that rangers CAN do more JUST DPS - which is what I was contending against. I am not quantitifying this and saying it's better utility than a wizard or whatever, I just don't like misinformation and lies.</span><div></div>

coltla

12-30-2005, 07:08 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I just don't like misinformation and lies.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Irony is fun.

Khevy

12-30-2005, 09:11 PM

<P>The key here is Rangers have to PAY for their utility! T6 posion is not cheap. The more "utility" we want the more it costs us. No other class except the scout class has to pay for their utility. I am not complaining to much becasue I choose this class, however it dosn't mitiate the fact that we have to pay for it. </P> <P>What I would like to see is one of these wizards go out and parese a Ranger not using poisons and see where he falls into the DPS Tier and then compare it to a wizard.</P> <P>the hate I refer to in the original post was referring to on several boards and threads where wizards are talking, excuse me crying about, not being on top of the DPS pyramid. I have no problem withem asking for a fix, but when they start asking for a nerf on us, when they are the ones who can easily solo named heroics, is just plain crazy. After reading several of the threads about wizard DPS I am now at a point where I am like screw em. They can solo named heroics so that is good enough.</P>

tweety1972

12-30-2005, 10:10 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khevynn wrote:<BR> <P>the hate I refer to in the original post was referring to on several boards and threads where wizards are talking, excuse me crying about, not being on top of the DPS pyramid. </P> <HR> <P>Since I am newer here I may not get it yet, but i thought the classes were supposed to work together. Tanks, Healers, Mages, and Scouts. If one can do it all what does he need others for? I have yet to roll a mage as i have to get up to a decent level before my friend returns from Iraq, but I know teams work alot better than solo.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

12-30-2005, 11:02 PM

<P>To me this discussion is just all about "I want more cuz you have more and if I cant get more then I want you to have less"</P> <P> </P> <P>If someone think they will get any sympathy for changes in their direction that way I suggest they grow some social abilitys.</P>

Gareorn

12-30-2005, 11:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tweety1972 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Since I am newer here I may not get it yet, but i thought the classes were supposed to work together.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Kudos to the new guy for injecting some sanity back into this thread. I thought we were doomed when I read about Jay being all about lies and misinformation. Yes, when I see the name Jay42, the first thing that comes to my mind is lies and misinformation. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

The_Wind

12-30-2005, 11:22 PM

You keep misunderstanding some of us. I say some, because not everyone subscribes to the same school of thought. We're not happy that were sitting at the top of the DPS pyramid. We're happy that we're sitting higher than we were 4 months ago. Some of us aren't trying to sound haughty, or all mighty. I believe it was you earlier, who said anyone that has an ability to solo a heroic^^^(group only) mob, should have that ability restricted, and removed. It does unbalance the game. I'm not arguing with this point. But what you're discussing is actual parse logs of DPS on raid mobs. Whereas too many factors come in to determine a precise amount of DPS. Its why I do not look at parse logs. They're deceiving. And most people who see them only see them ONCE, and determine that to be the solid outcome of all rangers. I said it before, put a naked ranger, in any situation, vs a naked wizard in any situation. Who is going to do more damage? The wizard, of course.People fail to take into account things such as equipment, play ability, mobs resistances, if the person went afk a little or not. Just way too many factors to determine a clear parse. In normal, solo situations, my Stream of Arrows hits for 500-600 damage. On raid situations where there is a Brigand present, my Stream does 1k+ on damage. Not DPS, but actual damage hits. If wizards, or warlocks don't have a class which does that for them, then maybe SOE should give a class the ability to help wizards along. I personally don't mind paying for poison, it seems more realistic. What I find hilarious is that people get [Removed for Content] off at rangers solo ability, but fail to comprehende what the word, "RANGER" means. <div></div>

Kaelos_

12-31-2005, 02:46 AM

On raid situations where there is a Brigand present, my Stream does 1k+ on damage. Not DPS, but actual damage hits. If wizards, or warlocks don't have a class which does that for them, then maybe SOE should give a class the ability to help wizards along. Funny you say that. I 2 box a 60ranger/60 Troubadour. I've thought about starting a wizzy to 2 box with my troubador too, but anyway. Troubs are great caster buffers. They have buffs that increase disruption, ordination and a bunch of other caster skills. They also have a proc song that has a 30% chance to proc 200-300 extra damage on caster debuff/dot/dd. They also have a 43% hate reduction song at adept3. They can also lower mob mitigation to spells. Those casters that know what a Troub can do.. love their troubadour friends. So if you're a caster and see a troub lfg. give em a try. I was in a group 1 time and we only had 1tank, 1healer, 2mages, 1 ranger and we were headed for AT. Lower level mage says, "sorry guys my spells won't land on those mobs, better find a replacement." I said," I have a troubadour I can 2 box and he can help with that." Lower level mage says, "what's a troubadour again?" We get into AT and lower level mage says, "OMG I can bomb them with no problems." <div></div>

pharacyde

12-31-2005, 03:03 AM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaelos_CZ wrote: On raid situations where there is a Brigand present, my Stream does 1k+ on damage. Not DPS, but actual damage hits. If wizards, or warlocks don't have a class which does that for them, then maybe SOE should give a class the ability to help wizards along. Funny you say that. I 2 box a 60ranger/60 Troubadour. I've thought about starting a wizzy to 2 box with my troubador too, but anyway. Troubs are great caster buffers. They have buffs that increase disruption, ordination and a bunch of other caster skills. They also have a proc song that has a 30% chance to proc 200-300 extra damage on caster debuff/dot/dd. They also have a 43% hate reduction song at adept3. They can also lower mob mitigation to spells. Those casters that know what a Troub can do.. love their troubadour friends. So if you're a caster and see a troub lfg. give em a try. I was in a group 1 time and we only had 1tank, 1healer, 2mages, 1 ranger and we were headed for AT. Lower level mage says, "sorry guys my spells won't land on those mobs, better find a replacement." I said," I have a troubadour I can 2 box and he can help with that." Lower level mage says, "what's a troubadour again?" We get into AT and lower level mage says, "OMG I can bomb them with no problems." <div></div><hr></blockquote>All that buffing of disruption will only lower the resist rate of casted spells. It will not increase the dps potential of mages, so it's maybe nice to land the nukes better, but it doesn't boost our dps. And the procs are nice, but since we cast so slowly we don't get many procs off. Just compare your proc song to a haste boost for melee. 33% to get an extra 250 damage average. That is like 250 damage on 3 nukes. Well 3sorcerer nukes do easely 1.2k + 2.4k + 1k = 4.6k. Yeah add 250 damage to that. It's a 5-6% boost. (also most our dots do 1k so you will get the same percentage approx.). Melee classes get hasted for 20% easily and get a 20%damage boost, plus procs of 10% chance to go off and so on ... You see where the imbalance is getting ? Casters don't get buffed as much as melee classes.. The dps on those nukes aren't that good as you might think. The nukes I am using now have a total of 8.5sec casting time. 5k damage in 8.5sec is a dps of 500-600dps. In raids of course thx to the debuffs we can go up to 700-900dps if we get lucky on single target. It's not a huge boost. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by pharacyde on <span class=date_text>12-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 PM</span>

Sokolov

12-31-2005, 05:22 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>coltlane wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I just don't like misinformation and lies.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Irony is fun.<hr></blockquote>If you wish to direct to me where I have passed on information that is false, I will attempt to rectify it (admit I was wrong) or explain where I obtained the information (if I believe my information is correct).</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-31-2005, 05:27 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> tweety1972 wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <p>Since I am newer here I may not get it yet, but i thought the classes were supposed to work together.</p> <hr> </blockquote></blockquote> <div>Kudos to the new guy for injecting some sanity back into this thread. I thought we were doomed when I read about Jay being all about lies and misinformation. Yes, when I see the name Jay42, the first thing that comes to my mind is lies and misinformation. :smileyvery-happy:</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for actually reading what I said! I said, "Saying that Rangers ONLY do DPS is a lie."</span><div></div>

Sokolov

12-31-2005, 05:37 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Tevf wrote:<p>To me this discussion is just all about "I want more cuz you have more and if I cant get more then I want you to have less"</p> <p>If someone think they will get any sympathy for changes in their direction that way I suggest they grow some social abilitys.</p> <hr></blockquote></span>Anyway, I copied what I typed in another thread: <span> IF Tier 1 DPS classes are not currently balanced. THEN Tier 1 DPS classes should be adjusted using a SOME combination of increases AND nerfs. WHILE keeping in mind OVERALL DPS balance vs mobs. This is what I am trying to say. I am just not sure where people get the attitude where they throw up their hands and say "Don't you dare touch my class!" as though if one class has an issue it's an isolated problem with that one class. ANY changes to ANY class has an indirect on your class as long as you play the game. That's how it works. So yes, I am sorry, if there is a preceived issue with Tier 1 DPS balance, then it DOES involve Rangers and a fix MAY have to involve a nerf. This is NOT a crime or selfishness. Selfishness is when you only look at your own and glare at anyone who dares to suggest changing it.</span><div></div>

12-31-2005, 10:38 AM

<P>What you fail to see is one point.</P> <P> </P> <P>That point is that if you nerf a t1 dps thats around 1200 down like a ranger then no class will be t1 dps we will all be t2 dps along with rogues and summoners.</P> <P> </P> <P>What you want is for wizzards and warlocks to be t1 dps together with assassins and rangers. Nerfing rangers wont do that it will just make us t2 dps together with four utility subclassess.</P> <P> </P> <P>If they think nerfing down rangers when they are where they supposed to be will solve the problem with class balancing, then your wrong.</P>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-01-2006, 04:14 AM

<P>i think the debilatating poisons like stifle and stun shouldnt be nerked. they should still effect epics, only in a different way. It would be better to decrease the likliness of the stun/stifle to 1% chance or 2% chance. Then you can still stunn the epic, only not as often as old world. Like i said before in a post on some thread, probably about the revamp at dof release, you should mke the game harder, not the ability to play your character. No one in their right mind would use stun/stifle poisons on regular groups like xp groups or looting groups. you would want damage poisons so you can burn through things faster.</P> <P>Maybe come out with an interrupt poison? That would be wicked. But then again that can be counted as a stun or partial stifling effet and get nerfed to. F**K! This is stupid to do to dps classes. Warlocks don't get much love eaither, they are almost pointless on raids now since most of the aoe encounters can easily be burned by scouts or a zerkers rampage and open wounds combo. Wizards kinda suck since their dps is only good if they dump it all and even then the recast timers conflict with a good dumping plan. And their large dps abilities have way too long of a recast so they dont do as good as they should be able to. </P> <P>They should make raids more tactical. Like the djinn master encounter of godking anuk, and even the twin dragons. Not just burn burn burn burn burn burn burn debuff debuff burn burn b.... ugh this is lame and uneventful. So much for a difficult game. Only thing I'm doing is struggling to play my character after they nerfed those abilities that used to be good from me. Boy, I wish they would make the resistance to that ability a little better rather then making me relearn how im supposed to be useful every patch.</P>

Stormykat

01-01-2006, 04:46 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<p> No one in their right mind would use stun/stifle poisons on regular groups like xp groups or looting groups. you would want damage poisons so you can burn through things faster.</p><hr></blockquote>I use stun poisons a lot when I "tank" in a group, cause it keeps the mob off me. But Scouts can have three types of poisons up - one debuff, one damage, and one stun/stifle type. </span><div></div>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-01-2006, 02:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Stormykat wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>I use stun poisons a lot when I "tank" in a group, cause it keeps the mob off me. But Scouts can have three types of poisons up - one debuff, one damage, and one stun/stifle type.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oh, i didnt know that. i remember when you could use as many as you wanted. (like before marhc or so, in 2005) thats pretty good then. but still if stifle and stun are only useful on heroic encounters, it is more costly to use them than thought. ultimately you would want your money being used effectively, and in raids of course. I still think that it is lame that stun and stifle cannot affect raid targets. it does however put more tact into raiding though, but in a forceful way. like i said before and ill say it again, make the game harder, not the ability to play it. forcing a class or more classes to relearn how they play their class is just plain dumb and i feel bad for those that have to do so because another ability gets changed due to nerfing (SOE calls it balancing)</DIV>

Gailstryd

01-01-2006, 03:00 PM

It seems to me the basis of Sokolov's whole reason for even existing is trying to get across his idiotically conceived notion that Rangers as whole (yep you fail to make the distinguishment that it is only a handfull of us at best) don't want any nerf done to our class. Most of us could easily accept and live with a nerf of a fair proportion and I for one will be somewhat happy the day they get around to reeling our class in some, I don't like being at the top of any pyramid because it sprouts trolls like Soko. Soko I think if you actually had a truely valid point that mattered and weren't a jerk, you'd get better reception of your idea's. You seem to post a lot, but in the course of your some odd 1600 posts you haven't picked up a bit of tact, or at least I don't see any evidence of it in your flame trollings. In all there really isn't a need for this entire thread. There are a proverbal handful of wizards at best out of all of them that bare our class any hate or wish to be nerfed and that goes the same for just about any other class that has shown us any anymosity. It's all subjective bs anyways, so stick to our forums and use them for the purpose they were created. To clearify that purpose isn't spreading the anymosity by making posts putting words into an entire classes mouth. Now if anyone has anything meaningful to say or add do so, but I find that it'd probably be a mute point at best. This thread needs locked and closed because it just a giant stagnation feeding on its own lack of necessity that along with the cracked ministerings of Sokolov has led to bickering amongst ourselves. I keep reading the title and wondering at how its become twisted into something more like "Why all the hate?"--> from Rangers.

Deml

01-01-2006, 11:58 PM

<P>Ok, since this thread really seems to be Sokolov attacking Ranger's on what we can and can't do and stating that we need to be nerfed I'll make this my final post on the thread and then ignore him completely.</P> <P>Stun poisons don't work on epic mobs. All the info I have says that stifle doesn't work on epics as well (hence Coercer's talking about 99% of their spells being useless vs epic mobs). Because of that I made the assumption that those poisons didn't work on epics as well. Finding out that the slow poison works on them makes complete sense, it was more of a fact that I didn't know the slow poison existed. As for it being cheap utility, the slow poison is Legendary which jumps the price up. I know exactly what poisons do and do not stack, thank you very much. I've helped many Rangers on these boards and in game both figure out which poisons they can use at the same time, to have the greatest effect.</P> <P>Your entire line of comments on this thread really seems to be taking what most of the rangers here have said about what our classes do and don't have, turn it around and say we have no idea what our class offers because you think we have some huge amount of utility, but you try to exclude any utility items that multiple classes can use as a general thing that doesn't change your argument. You talk about Ranger's not having to pay much for things, but continue to say how we have poisons to add our utility. You talk about poisons stacking but only get half the info right. Damage poisons and debuff poisons stack. Multiple debuff poisons (that supply all that utility as you call it) do not stack. </P> <P>Realize that Rangers want all classes to be balanced. We have always said we hope Assassin's get brought up to where they should be. None of us are saying there isn't room to improve wizards some. Now, go back to your wizard forums, stop giving wizards a bad name, stop whining in general and just leave the Ranger boards to the real Rangers, not wizards who make Ranger alts just so they can say they know what they are whining and crying about. It has been stated multiple times in this thread alone. We, as Rangers, hope wizards get balanced along with all the other classes, we just don't care to continue your childish mudslinging.</P>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-02-2006, 03:39 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, since this thread really seems to be Sokolov attacking Ranger's on what we can and can't do and stating that we need to be nerfed I'll make this my final post on the thread and then ignore him completely.</P> <P>Stun poisons don't work on epic mobs. All the info I have says that stifle doesn't work on epics as well (hence Coercer's talking about 99% of their spells being useless vs epic mobs). Because of that I made the assumption that those poisons didn't work on epics as well. Finding out that the slow poison works on them makes complete sense, it was more of a fact that I didn't know the slow poison existed. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What kinda slow type is it? Attack speed or movement? Being a bard and only raising a ranger part of the way in old world, I never got a chance to explore them very well. Can anyone provide a link to another thread that has a plethora of info on poisons? Im kinda a nerd when it comes to knowing these types of things for better planning. Being a bard I feel it is my responsability to be able to buff players as much as possible and this even concerns that I will spend my own coin that I work hard for, to purchase potions and poisons for raids. This way I can assure that the players that dont have the time to farm farm farm, can at least increase their dps to the max they can. I know the majority of what potions can be stacked, think it was 1 stat potion can be combined with anything that isnt a stat potion, like ac, hp, resistance...etc. Poisons I dnot have too much knowledge of, and would like to know, so I can better my selection when I make the orders from my alchemist friend. Thanks ranja's!

Fennir

01-02-2006, 10:16 AM

Just so you guys know, the T6 legendary stifle poison seems to proc 4 times on epics. AKA under 15 seconds of bow shots. WOW i mean WOW <div></div>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-02-2006, 11:28 AM

right it *may* proc but will not affect the performance of the epic mob. remember the update that determined epic foes are immune to the effects of stuns and stifles.

Sokolov

01-02-2006, 05:13 PM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:Realize that Rangers want all classes to be balanced. We have always said we hope Assassin's get brought up to where they should be. None of us are saying there isn't room to improve wizards some. Now, go back to your wizard forums, stop giving wizards a bad name, stop whining in general and just leave the Ranger boards to the real Rangers, not wizards who make Ranger alts just so they can say they know what they are whining and crying about. It has been stated multiple times in this thread alone. We, as Rangers, hope wizards get balanced along with all the other classes, we just don't care to continue your childish mudslinging.<hr></blockquote>If you feel that balance should be a goal, I am right with you! But read the other posts made by your fellow rangers, some of them have clearly said they don't care as long as rangers don't get touched. That's the attitude I have an issue with. Well that, and the lying.</span> And, by the way, I am not a wizard =) And, as a Ranger who isn't even Tier 6 yet, I think the class is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good. Which makes me sad for the other classes. (I have had all 4 archetypes covered for quite a while, incase you wondered, the ranger isn't a new development, in fact, she was my 2nd character to level 26.) Anyway, I apologize if you people think I am just ranger bashing or "mudslinging" as you call it. But I am not really. Heck, I gave the wizards hell for calling 45 second recast for Ice Comet "the longest" when most other classes high damage abilities are on significantly higher timers. And what? I can't think poisons are utility? I can't be annoyed when someone smugly tells me you should something about poison when he clearly didn't know what he was talking about? I don't really think I've been mudslinging, but again, sorry if you think so. What does drive me crazy is how everyone is nerf-phobic, and it's not just rangers, it's everyone! Even the so-called Hating Wizards sometimes preface their words with "I am not calling for a nerf but.." and I give them a hard time for that too. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>01-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 AM</span>

Sokolov

01-02-2006, 05:14 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Demlar wrote: <p>Ok, since this thread really seems to be Sokolov attacking Ranger's on what we can and can't do and stating that we need to be nerfed I'll make this my final post on the thread and then ignore him completely.</p> <p>Stun poisons don't work on epic mobs. All the info I have says that stifle doesn't work on epics as well (hence Coercer's talking about 99% of their spells being useless vs epic mobs). Because of that I made the assumption that those poisons didn't work on epics as well. Finding out that the slow poison works on them makes complete sense, it was more of a fact that I didn't know the slow poison existed. </p> <hr> </blockquote>What kinda slow type is it? Attack speed or movement? Being a bard and only raising a ranger part of the way in old world, I never got a chance to explore them very well. Can anyone provide a link to another thread that has a plethora of info on poisons? Im kinda a nerd when it comes to knowing these types of things for better planning. Being a bard I feel it is my responsability to be able to buff players as much as possible and this even concerns that I will spend my own coin that I work hard for, to purchase potions and poisons for raids. This way I can assure that the players that dont have the time to farm farm farm, can at least increase their dps to the max they can. I know the majority of what potions can be stacked, think it was 1 stat potion can be combined with anything that isnt a stat potion, like ac, hp, resistance...etc. Poisons I dnot have too much knowledge of, and would like to know, so I can better my selection when I make the orders from my alchemist friend. Thanks ranja's!<hr></blockquote><a href="www.eq2alchemy.com" target=_blank>www.eq2alchemy.com</a></span><div></div>

Sokolov

01-02-2006, 05:17 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:right it *may* proc but will not affect the performance of the epic mob. remember the update that determined epic foes are immune to the effects of stuns and stifles. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep, which sucks even worse for Coercers =/ But please again recall my point about this was to counter the line where someone suggested that rangers can only do DPS. It may be what they are BEST at, but... *shrug*.</span><div></div>

Fennir

01-02-2006, 10:51 PM

You gotta be pretty dumb to think we do anything very well besides DPS. Any debuff we can land is most likely already covered by another class on a raid, and also probably doesn't even stack with those debuffs. At best we can debuff a damage type or two by ~600. Incredible. No one brings me on a raid to debuff mobs, and no one brings me on a raid to buff anyone. I kill stuff. That's it. While I'm rotating wizards, warlocks, conjurors, etc. in and out of the MT group based on buffs, I'm sitting in group 3 or 4 99% of the time, or MAYBE in group 2 helping a paladin lock down agro. I don't do anything 'well' except damage. Here's my question: what's more fun, playing a ranger or an alt-hopping forum nitpicker troll? I know what I choose =) <div></div>

Amistead

01-03-2006, 12:27 AM

<DIV>The players of Sorceror classes in high end raiding guilds parse consistently. There seems to be a perception that this is an expression of arrogance, and while there may be an element of that with some players, the majority of high end raiders parse so they can improve their play. When players in high end raiding guilds parse consistently, their play improves. This means that we can beat harder targets.</DIV> <DIV> Having pointed out that parsing is a tool to improve play, there is an offshoot. You notice what other classes are doing. This information helps you optimize group builds and improve raid structure. It also points out significant disparities in class design.</DIV> <DIV> There are several scout classes that are designed VERY well, ranger amongst them. The design implementation is such that with proper group structure and simply clicking on Primal Agility for instance, it is impossible for rangers to peel aggro. Sorcerors can put out similar numbers theoretically, but in reality that is not the case. Sorcerors have one deaggro CA. Every scout dps class has a deaggro buff and two deaggro CA's. If a ranger goes all out, the berserker holds aggro. If a sorceror goes all out, the mob takes a timeout to one shot the sorceror. </DIV> <DIV> Flame wars are useless. All Sorceror classes need is something on par with the Scout DPS class deaggro capacity, and things will be even. I think it is disingenous for players of the scout classes to say, "Look, those Wizards and Warlocks are complaining because they can't do as much dps. They want us nerfed!"</DIV> <DIV> We don't want rangers nerfed; frankly the reliable and safe dps of rangers is a huge asset to a raid. Sorcerors just want equivalent tools so we can play our toons. </DIV> <DIV>FUN FACTS: After looking at many raid parses, poison accounts for about thirty percent of ranger dps. Sorcerors are consistently about thirty percent behind in dps.... (Except in extended AOE situations, where Warlocks are godlike. Wizards are just the suck all the time.)</DIV> <DIV> I expect the "Learn how to play your class you noob!" posts to continue. So be it. The people who are pointing out the problems in class imbalance are the people who know how to play. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alezara</DIV> <DIV>Warlock of the 60th Order~Core~Unrest</DIV>

Poochymama

01-03-2006, 02:09 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <P>I just want to point out something...most of this friction between Rangers and Wizards started because of a thread started by a ranger "bragging" about solo'ing triple up yellows (if I remember)</P> <P>Now check this out:</P> <P> </P> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=19521#M19521" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=19521#M19521</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will likely be warned about linking to another post but I have to show that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They want to use our forums against us...well right there poochymama says she can solo ^^^ yellow heroics. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shame that you dont have a leg to stand on. You argue for uberness...you got it pal. Now go home and solo some more ^^^ yellow heroics, and dont worry....we wont hold it against you that your arguments are hypocritical in origin and nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh...one more thing...I like dots....:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just go in peace and fight for your class fixes with honor in your own forum....people get banned for posting food concerns in the wrong forum...I would not like to see that happen here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(cripes I am getting to be a mean old bastidge...I hate fighting/arguing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My complaints have nothing to do with soloing ability. Wizards rock at soloing. My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps in a situation where both classes are doing their utmost potential.

Gareorn

01-03-2006, 03:03 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR>Wizards rock at soloing. My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL. Priceless!<BR>

Fennir

01-03-2006, 04:55 AM

<span>df</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>01-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 PM</span>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-03-2006, 06:22 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<BR>right it *may* proc but will not affect the performance of the epic mob. remember the update that determined epic foes are immune to the effects of stuns and stifles. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, which sucks even worse for Coercers =/<BR><BR>But please again recall my point about this was to counter the line where someone suggested that rangers can only do DPS. It may be what they are BEST at, but... *shrug*.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I completely agree. Nothing like making coercers and illusionists completely useless on raids except for some buffs and very little damage. Oh and who can forget mana battery? Most of the adds that spawn with raid encounters or come with the initial pull are easily burned away and do not cause any particular threat for coercers or illusionists to really shine with their abilities. At elast raids like arch lich udalan and some of the ones in spirits of the lost and other old world encounters called for some crowd control.</P> <P>Hey Sokolov, thanks for the like to eq2alchemy, I found most of the info to be extremely helpful and well done. They are still missing some things for T6 and a little update to the site/info might help. Overall great link, thanks.<BR></P>

Sokolov

01-03-2006, 08:25 AM

No problem =) I love that site. <div></div>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-03-2006, 11:37 AM

<P>im surprised that someone finaly did this. it is definately a great site</P> <P> </P>

Dasanhgul

01-03-2006, 01:20 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amistead wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> We don't want rangers nerfed; frankly the reliable and safe dps of rangers is a huge asset to a raid. Sorcerors just want <FONT color=#ff0000>equivalent</FONT> tools so we can play our toons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alezara</DIV> <DIV>Warlock of the 60th Order~Core~Unrest</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Both classes have NOTHING in common, except perhaps that we now all share (if you can call sharing the constant bickering and nerf calling) the same DPS tier. Two different classes, different spells/CA's, different dev "visions" on how each class is supposed to be played.... except the Ranger happens to have something you want, a hate reduction spell/buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have it too... its called control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>PS</U>: i said to myself I would stay out of this, but its too late now... bah. This actually used to be a nice forum, and I do hope it returns to its old self when you are all done with this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dasanhgul on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 AM</span>

Gareorn

01-04-2006, 03:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dasanhgul wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>PS</U>: i said to myself I would stay out of this, but its too late now... bah. This actually used to be a nice forum, and I do hope it returns to its old self when you are all done with this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The forum is still the best of all of the class forums. Please don't judge the entire forum by a couple of heavily trolled threads. The trolls will eventually go away.</DIV>

Poochymama

01-04-2006, 05:16 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR>Wizards rock at soloing. My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL. Priceless!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why is that? Do you find nothing wrong with the fact that rangers can put out 1500 dps when wizards cap at 800?</P> <P><BR> </P>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-04-2006, 05:52 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Poochymama p wrote:</P> <P><BR>Wizards rock at soloing. My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think that the guild you raid with favors rangers because of one thing; Rangers have a unique ability set. they are just as useful up close as they are at ranged. This allows them to be a great asset in both ranged battles and gives them the upperhand at being able to give out auto attack dps as well.</P> <P>When you really look at dps comparison between casting and melee, take in account to subtract auto attack dps from the melee character. You will see that the dps of a caster will be much heavier than that of a melee character. Other points for this, is that casters just wait and sit there letting the recasts tick down so they can do more damage, and often the recasts conflict with each other. On a scout more specifically predators and rogues, the timers can be manageable enough to continually burn abilities. Another point is that while a scout is waiting for recast to come back up they have auto attack damage that can be hasted and damage per second increased by buffs. Caster classes, once they aer oop, that's it, they cannot do anymore damage till they have mana. They don't have any damage per second buffs, other than intelligence and spell proc song from troubadors. Rangers will of course be thought of as better dps but you need to realize the circumstances that they each need to do their maximum. A ranger requires less buffing and has more options to be buffed over a wizard or any other caster.</P> <P>Melee's can have: Str (to hit harder), Agi (to hit more), Haste (to hit faster), DPS buff (increases the overall damage output of melee), Auto-Attack damage (which is also effected by the buffs), and combat abilities like hail of steel and stream of arrows. (Which no caster gets an equivalent)</P> <P>Melee characters can be: parried and avoided (which doesn't happen often when you are behin a mob) or they may need to switch weapons due to immunity to crush/slash/pierce. Debuffs of agility on a mob are the only thing a scout needs to start opening up their dps in encounters, the mitigation debuffs on encounters are just a little bonus and do not largely impact melee dps increase.</P> <P>Caster's can have: Int (allows their spells to have more damage), Aria of XXXXXX (spell proc song from troubador 30% chance to do xxx-xxx dmg proc per spell success), and lastly Precision of the maestro. (which is a 20 second 100% chance to proc xxx-xxx dmg per successful spell, from troubadors also) Troubadors also give a disruption/subjugation/ordination/ministration/focus buff to aleiviate resists on some types of mobs.</P> <P>Caster's can be: Resisted, even after the resist decreasing buff is on. Need a mob to be debuffed to their elemental skill set so they can do more damage, an also they may just be completely immune to a casters elemental skill set, such as magic, poison, disease, cold ...etc.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Balmung of the Azure Sky on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 PM</span>

Deml

01-04-2006, 08:24 PM

<P>Last post on this thread, I mean it this time. lol</P> <P>Rangers are not as effective up close as they are far away. Our bow skills do a TON more damage than our melee skills. Force a ranger up close where they are meleeing a mob and the fight drags on a lot longer than if they were back shooting it.</P> <P>We had this same arguement in my guild just two days ago. One of the wizards starting complaining that I needed to be nerfed because he couldn't parse the same damage I was doing on raids. After about 20 minutes of pointing out to him why Wizards were still useful, and having the other Wizards in my guild point out the same thing, I asked him one simple question. Over the course of a fight with a named raid mob, how much time do wizards spend nuking the mob and how much time do they spend rebuffing people or feeding mana to the main tank/healers? THAT is where your difference in DPS comes in. Wizard nukes hit for just as much as Ranger nukes. The reason Rangers parse for higher damage is because we never turn away from the mob. We don't have to rebuff someone or feed mana to someone, we just keep firing away with arrows. Those same fights could not be won if it weren't for the wizards there buffing the main tanks resists or feeding him mana so he can taunt, which allows the Ranger to do more damage. This isn't a solo game, especially on raids which is where this argument seems to come from. You join guilds and raid to work together as a team. Without all the things Wizards bring to the fights, Rangers can't do what they do. You have the same dps as we do, you just can't focus it on the mob the entire fight because you have other important roles that you have to fill for your guild and the raid as a whole to win the encounter.</P>

Berek_IronAxe

01-04-2006, 08:50 PM

<P>Absolutely Correct Demlar. I have a 35th lvl Ranger, 42nd lvl Wizard, and a 58th lvl Guardian. My ranger is never targeting anything but the MT's mob, all Arrows all the time-Constant DPS on target, if for some reason my Bow CA's are down I close for a quick Backstab and then I am back to my bow. While my Wizard Nukes hit and a my DOT's are running, I am dropping shields and Power on MT and Healers to boister there abilities-I am constantly off target to assist the rest of the group.</P> <P>Now my Ranger is a few levels below my Wizzie so I can not give a compared DPS but when my Poisons drop off my DPS sinks dramatically. While my Wiz is a constant DPS machine. I love running both it is a nice change from a MT roll to just sitting back and blowing things up. My 2 cents or so...</P>

Saihung23

01-04-2006, 10:05 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <hr> </blockquote>My complaints have nothing to do with soloing ability.<font color="#ff0000"> Wizards rock at soloing.</font> My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps in a situation where both classes are doing their utmost potential. <div></div><hr></blockquote>QFE So, if my understanding is correct...you are upset that in a group/raid of fully buffed char.'s a ranger is out dps'ing you. So, your beef is with group buffs. Therefore...wouldnt the appropriate forum be something like combat or abilities...or something other than the ranger forum. Perhaps, you mistook this forum for that one. NO PROBLEM let me direct you folks to the door. It is right over there, as you leave you will notice the forums you passed up to come here and argue for your "Character Fix" (that sounds so much nicer than "argue for rangers to be nerfed"...which is what it honestly is). Over there you will see the wizard and warlock forums...I know you tried talking about your "fix" in those forums but strangely, I see that many many of your own classes (wiz and war) dont agree with you about "fixing" rangers. And further on down the line here are mage forums, over there are the spells abilities and combat arts. That could be a nice haven for you to expound on your "fix". There are also the combat and encounters forum...not quite a skintight fit but...could work for you. However, let me show you this huge mansion of a forum right here...it is called The Glass House. It is called such to remind folks that you shouldnt throw stones when you live in a...you guessed it...Glass House. Because you may just destroy your home in the process. I have a feeling this is where this argument belongs. Again, as stated in previous posts, I apologize rangers...but I have to say, some folks need to get bent, get lost, and if they are lucky, get a life. Peace Health and Happiness Saihung Talechaser</span><div></div>

Amistead

01-04-2006, 10:18 PM

<DIV>Dasanghul wrote:</DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>....except the Ranger happens to have something you want, a hate reduction spell/buff. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have it too... its called control.</DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Don't cast Primal Agility. Raid for a week without it. Then make a less than informed comment like this. Sorcerors are [Removed for Content] because we cant play our toons because SOE decided to </DIV> <DIV>a. Drastically reduce relative hate generation of tank classes.</DIV> <DIV>b. Drastically increase relative hate generation of DPS classes. In the process of increasing hate generation, they gave hate deaggro buffs to Swashbucklers, Rangers, Brigands, Troubadors, and Assassins. Sorcerors got nothing. So we sit on our hands. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I reiterate. If you feel so confident in your play skill, and want to know what the situation is like for Sorceror's, do not cast Primal Agility, and you can only use one deaggro CA. (Evade is roughly equivalent to the deaggro CA for Sorcerors). Try it for a week, and see how much you like playing your toon when you are constantly watching the dps meter to not peel and endanger your raid, counting to four mississippi on pulls, creating T4/T5 hotbars to help moderate dps numbers in casting sequences when your dps gets close to being too high... and all the while you are doing this, playing your butt off to not peel aggro, look over at the ranger and the brigand spamming and doing twice the single target damage. THAT IS WHY SORCERORS ARE [Removed for Content]. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alezara</DIV></DIV></DIV>

Saihung23

01-04-2006, 11:06 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Amistead wrote:<div>Dasanghul wrote:</div> <div>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div> <div> <div>....except the Ranger happens to have something you want, a hate reduction spell/buff. <div> </div> <div>You have it too... its called control.</div> <div>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div> <div> </div> <div> Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Don't cast Primal Agility. Raid for a week without it. Then make a less than informed comment like this. Sorcerors are [Removed for Content] because we cant play our toons because SOE decided to </div> <div>a. Drastically reduce relative hate generation of tank classes.</div> <div>b. Drastically increase relative hate generation of DPS classes. In the process of increasing hate generation, they gave hate deaggro buffs to Swashbucklers, Rangers, Brigands, Troubadors, and Assassins. Sorcerors got nothing. So we sit on our hands. </div> <div> </div> <div> I reiterate. If you feel so confident in your play skill, and want to know what the situation is like for Sorceror's, do not cast Primal Agility, and you can only use one deaggro CA. (Evade is roughly equivalent to the deaggro CA for Sorcerors). Try it for a week, and see how much you like playing your toon when you are constantly watching the dps meter to not peel and endanger your raid, counting to four mississippi on pulls, creating T4/T5 hotbars to help moderate dps numbers in casting sequences when your dps gets close to being too high... and all the while you are doing this, playing your butt off to not peel aggro, look over at the ranger and the brigand spamming and doing twice the single target damage. <font color="#ff0066"> THAT IS WHY SORCERORS ARE [Removed for Content]. </font></div> <div><font color="#ff0066"> </font></div> <div>Alezara</div></div></div><hr></blockquote> So what! You are [Removed for Content] at rangers? Know what I play a ranger as my main...always have...never once became "[Removed for Content]" that sorcerors did more damage than me, never once invaded other class forums because of ANY displeasure I had with rangers. So why are you here again? What is your justification again as to why you are here distracting rangers from sorting through their own issues when you obviously feel sorcerors have very pressing problems and are in need of some luvin? Oh thats right because you just want to argue your point...you just want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan about sorceror woes to another class. Well let me be the first to shed a tear for the death of your class....hold on here it comes...nope nothing. I dont even have much sympathy anymore. Just irritation that you folk are so self absorbed that you would think our forum should take up your cause. Why not get other sorcerors to take up your cause? Likely they are tired of your complaining too...probably sent you here...just so they didnt have to watch your whiny tactics. This thread should be trashed. or maybe moved to the wiz forum <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Saihung the [Removed for Content] off old man</span><div></div>

Jay

01-04-2006, 11:45 PM

<P>Hmm, I go away for a weekend, and get accused of <STRONG>being a liar and spreading disinformation</STRONG> because I don't agree that poisons qualify as utility. </P> <P>I agree, Soko, the term "utility" is often misunderstood or defined in different ways. Case in point - I don't think I've heard of poisons being defined as utility before you mentioned it. It's an interesting point, but not a real significant one. </P> <P>Soko, you complain a lot about attitude and nerfaholism and the like. Well, consider this my complaint about your attitude, and your baseless accusations. I have absolutely no problem with your actual game-related points; in fact, I tend to agree with many of them and I've said so at various times in different threads. But calling me a liar b/c I don't agree that the ability to use poison should be considered utility is sinking to a new low. I'm disappointed in you, up until recently you made your points in a pretty solid manner. But when you resort to name-calling, I'm left wondering why I'm wasting my time talking to you. Besides, you've already made your points: that people shouldn't be selfish about class balance, that you hate the attitude of ALL classes when it comes to nerfs. Why you continue to trumpet this opinion is beyond me, you're not saying anything revolutionary. I've said the same thing myself before, to my colleagues here. We aren't all terrified of having our class changed. Most of us who aren't power-players realize and accept that it <STRONG>will </STRONG>change, and we <STRONG>will </STRONG>adapt and move on like we always have.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>So, moving on: <STRONG>I agree that sorcerors really need more hate reduction.</STRONG> I discussed this with a good friend (60 wizard) last week, and that was the biggest discrepancy we came across in comparing our skills and aptitudes. Our Primal Agility buff is immensely useful, and wizards and warlocks have nothing that compares to it. Add in our two skills that can reduce hate on the fly and we're probably in the best overall situation for inflicting the most damage while generating the least hate. Since every DPS class is limited by hate generation, that puts rangers in a better position than sorcerors, especially on raids. That's not the rangers' fault, and complaining to us about it isn't going to solve anything, it will only generate animosity. <STRONG>Go ahead and point me to a thread the appropriate forums, and I'll back you up and provide the necessary info from the ranger class to help make your case.</STRONG></FONT><STRONG> </STRONG></P> <P>Edited to emphasize the above paragraph. People on both sides of the line need to hear this and accept it if we're going to get past all this BS mudslinging from both rangers and sorcerors. </P><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class=date_text>01-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

Saihung23

01-04-2006, 11:53 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>Hmm, I go away for a weekend, and get accused of <strong>being a liar and spreading disinformation</strong> because I don't agree that poisons qualify as utility. </p> <p>I agree, Soko, the term "utility" is often misunderstood or defined in different ways. Case in point - I don't think I've heard of poisons being defined as utility before you mentioned it. It's an interesting point, but not a real significant one. </p> <p>Soko, you complain a lot about attitude and nerfaholism and the like. Well, consider this my complaint about your attitude, and your baseless accusations. I have absolutely no problem with your actual game-related points; in fact, I tend to agree with many of them and I've said so at various times in different threads. But calling me a liar b/c I don't agree that the ability to use poison should be considered utility is sinking to a new low. I'm disappointed in you, up until recently you made your points in a pretty solid manner. But when you resort to name-calling, I'm left wondering why I'm wasting my time talking to you. Besides, you've already made your points: that people shouldn't be selfish about class balance, that you hate the attitude of ALL classes when it comes to nerfs. Why you continue to trumpet this opinion is beyond me, you're not saying anything revolutionary. I've said the same thing myself before, to my colleagues here. We aren't all terrified of having our class changed. Most of us who aren't power-players realize and accept that it <strong>will </strong>change, and we <strong>will </strong>adapt and move on like we always have.</p> <p><font color="#ffff33">So, moving on: <strong>I agree that sorcerors really need more hate reduction.</strong> I discussed this with a good friend (60 wizard) last week, and that was the biggest discrepancy we came across in comparing our skills and aptitudes. Our Primal Agility buff is immensely useful, and wizards and warlocks have nothing that compares to it. Add in our two skills that can reduce hate on the fly and we're probably in the best overall situation for inflicting the most damage while generating the least hate. Since every DPS class is limited by hate generation, that puts rangers in a better position than sorcerors, especially on raids. That's not the rangers' fault, and complaining to us about it isn't going to solve anything, it will only generate animosity. <strong>Go ahead and point me to a thread the appropriate forums, and I'll back you up and provide the necessary info from the ranger class to help make your case.</strong></font><strong> </strong></p> <p>Edited to emphasize the above paragraph. People on both sides of the line need to hear this and accept it if we're going to get past all this BS mudslinging from both rangers and sorcerors. </p><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">01-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>QFE Jay makes very good suggestions and points here...please take them and understand that he is dead on right. Maybe the aa's will offer some solutions (though...fixes shouldnt be had through aa's). Saihung</span><div></div>

Sokolov

01-05-2006, 03:09 AM

<span><span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <b>But calling me a liar b/c I don't agree that the ability to use poison should be considered utility is sinking to a new low. </b><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">01-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span></span><span></span>Okay, I think people are getting confused here, so let's RECAP. Xandez wrote: Predators SHOULD be better DPS than wizards in ANY situations! Why? Simple, we have only our DPS to bring to the group, no resist buffs, no power buffs, etc... just the plain DPS. I disagreed and pointed out, for example, that poisons give rangers group utility. JayZ disagreed that poisons are utility. I responded and gave reasons why poisons should be considered utility, but pointed out that the original idea was to counter the lie that was "Rangers only does DPS." Gareorn misread this line to mean that I was calling JayZ a liar. I responded clarifying. JayZ also misread and possibily skipped my explanation and made this last post. I am again clarifying that the lie I was referring to was not written by JayZ.<span> </span><div></div>

Sokolov

01-05-2006, 03:31 AM

<span><span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote: <p>Hmm, I go away for a weekend, and get accused of <strong>being a liar and spreading disinformation</strong> because I don't agree that poisons qualify as utility. </p> <p>I agree, Soko, the term "utility" is often misunderstood or defined in different ways. Case in point - I don't think I've heard of poisons being defined as utility before you mentioned it. It's an interesting point, but not a real significant one. </p> ... <p><font color="#ffff33">So, moving on: <strong>I agree that sorcerors really need more hate reduction.</strong> I discussed this with a good friend (60 wizard) last week, and that was the biggest discrepancy we came across in comparing our skills and aptitudes. Our Primal Agility buff is immensely useful, and wizards and warlocks have nothing that compares to it. Add in our two skills that can reduce hate on the fly and we're probably in the best overall situation for inflicting the most damage while generating the least hate. Since every DPS class is limited by hate generation, that puts rangers in a better position than sorcerors, especially on raids. That's not the rangers' fault, and complaining to us about it isn't going to solve anything, it will only generate animosity. <strong>Go ahead and point me to a thread the appropriate forums, and I'll back you up and provide the necessary info from the ranger class to help make your case.</strong></font><strong> </strong></p> <p>Edited to emphasize the above paragraph. People on both sides of the line need to hear this and accept it if we're going to get past all this BS mudslinging from both rangers and sorcerors. </p><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">01-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span></span><span>I actually believe this is a very significant point. How people define utility is the crux of many debates on these forums, mostly in the form of "X class has better utility than Y class because Z ability isn't really utility In all honesty, I believe everything a class can do, including damage should be considered that class' utility towards a situation. If utility is considered in this manner then damage becomes arguably the most important utility any class can bring. Skills such as Primal Agility and other hate reducers then become utility also and cannot be ignored by the "DPS vs Utility" argument if utility defined much more narrowly. When viewed from that prespective, it is much easier to consider whether classes are actually balanced. Of course, most people don't agree with this view so I don't talk about it much, but it's how I consider classes in my own thoughts. </span><span>I agree that giving Sorcerers a hate reduction buff will cause their DPS to increase. But what kind of effect does that have on the game as a whole? </span><span>I think it's a good idea in terms of Tier 1 DPS balance, but again I question the wisdom of increasing the underdog. In my opinion, we already have a situation in the game where there is too much DPS. So much so that, for example, fights are over before the mob even breaks thru the ward I casted before my group pulled. Any change which results in an overall increase to average group DPS, I think, would only serve to further trivialize content. (This is why I caution against nerfphobia, part of the reason for the original Combat Update was due to tweaks and fixes that increased the player's potential to trivialize content. Unfortunately, the adjustments to mobs, the advent of fixes, Tier 6 rare jewellery and significant increases in DPS for several classes in Tier 6 arriving along with DoF/CU meant that the situation would soon resurface.) </span><span><span></span> </span><div></div>

Jay

01-05-2006, 03:39 AM

<DIV>Sorry then - given the context, that totally looked like it was directed at me. (I'm not Jay-Z tho, I think he's a rapper or somehin. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way, though, Xan wasn't 'lying' when he said that rangers don't bring any utility to a group. I don't agree with his statement that predators should always outdamage wizards, but his assessment of our utility is not a "lie." You make it sound like a deliberate cover-up - like we have all these abilities that we're trying to hide. While I've agreed with your point about <STRONG>all</STRONG> classes trying to downplay their abilities to avoid nerfing, calling someone a liar b/c they don't define 'utility' the same way you do (whether that person is me or another player) is going a bit far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most people generally define "utility" as skills or abilities that provide benefits to an individual, group, or raid that do not easily fit into categories like tanking, healing, crowd control, or DPS. IMO, this includes all manner of buffs and debuffs, mana regen, powerfeeding, teleporting, move speed bonuses, etc. As you well know, we have three skills that are generally defined as "utility:" Pathfinding, Tracking, and Evac. All scouts have these abilities; predators are granted the least utility of all scout classes b/c we're designed to have the most DPS. We're very focused on that singular purpose. I don't think anyone here is crying about not having enough utility, but the original point was that wizards and warlocks DO bring more utility to the table than rangers and assassins. Even if you factor in the ability to use poisons, I still believe that sorcerors have more utility than predators. Is that wrong or unfair? No, but it's a fact of the class design as it exists currently. As you've said before, when we're discussing class balance, we have to take all these factors into account.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Disclaimer cuz you need 'em nowadays: I'm in no way saying that sorcs should lose utility or preds should gain utility, just clarifying what I believe was one of the original points of this discussion, which has since been lost in the sound and fury.</DIV>

Sokolov

01-05-2006, 03:49 AM

May I ask why self hate reduction and self buffs, both of which increase DPS, are not considered utility, but another class' group buff which increases DPS for other members of the group IS considered utility? <div></div>

Jay

01-05-2006, 03:52 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><BR></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Skills such as Primal Agility and other hate reducers then become utility also and cannot be ignored by the "DPS vs Utility" argument if utility defined much more narrowly. When viewed from that prespective, it is much easier to consider whether classes are actually balanced. </SPAN><SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ahhh, very good point. You're right, our hate reducers and perhaps even our snares should be considered utility; I hadn't thought of that before. I do think a hate reducer for sorcs would help alleviate the specific situation WRT our DPS at Tier 1, but it may just be the kind of fix that causes other problems elsewhere. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the bigger picture about balancing the game as a whole... you raise some interesting thoughts. I'm admittedly pretty focused on my class and I don't tend to see the forest for the trees; I'm not wired that way. I tend to familiarize myself with the specific aspects of the game that concern me and my class (poisons, dual-wielding, ranged combat, etc), and I don't often step back to consider the grand scheme. You may be right that we have a glut of DPS in the game at the moment - that's a hard situation to assess without being the designers. On the one hand, I tend to feel that post-50, <STRONG>all</STRONG> classes should be capable of some pretty incredible feats, but by the same token, the mobs at that level should present a challenge that corresponds accordingly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've said it before and I will again: my class <STRONG>will</STRONG> be changed. Probably we'll get toned down a bit; this is just a moment in the sun for us and I'm enjoying it while it lasts. Maybe the Second Combat Update (I'm making that up, don't freak) will re-balance the poor mobses and elevate the challenge in the end-game, or maybe the balance will be restored by taking certain classes down a notch. Personally, I won't cry if rangers get reined in, but we both know there will be a lot of howling from any class that gets anything other than candy and presents during a live update. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Gareorn

01-05-2006, 03:52 AM

<P>Sokolov,</P> <P>Just to clarify, I didn't misread your post. I knew what you meant. The way you worded your post made it look like you were calling Jay a liar and I found it to be funny. I thought the "very funny smiley face" communicated the humor I felt. The problem with this thread is that a few people are taking it way too seriously. If you look at my comments throughout this thread, you'll see they are mostly tongue and cheek type of comments if not outright laughing at some troll's post.</P> <P>This thread is by far the worst thread on the Ranger Forum and is pretty much useless except for the fact that, at times, it can be entertaining to read. For a while I was shocked that it didn't get locked, but after browsing through some of the other class forums recently, this thing feels pretty tame by comparison. I find it hillarious that some wizards are here complaining about their class, as if Rangers can do anything about it. One self-absorbded wizard basically states that he doesn't have a problem with his DPS, but rather that Rangers have better DPS. Now that's some funny stuff. It reminds me of a time back when I was 6 and I wanted to play with my little brother's Tonka Truck, but that's another story.</P> <P>I don't care how loud a wizard screams on this thread. It isn't going to do a darn thing toward fixing their class. This is a Ranger forum, not a Dev forum. The louder they scream, the harder I laugh. Like I said, this thread can be entertaining to read at times.:smileyvery-happy:</P>

Poochymama

01-05-2006, 06:41 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My complaints have nothing to do with soloing ability.<FONT color=#ff0000> Wizards rock at soloing.</FONT> My complaints have to do with group/raid dps and the fact that rangers nearly double wizard dps in a situation where both classes are doing their utmost potential. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>QFE<BR><BR> So, if my understanding is correct...you are upset that in a group/raid of fully buffed char.'s a ranger is out dps'ing you. So, your beef is with group buffs. Therefore...wouldnt the appropriate forum be something like combat or abilities...or something other than the ranger forum.<BR><BR> Perhaps, you mistook this forum for that one. NO PROBLEM let me direct you folks to the door. It is right over there, as you leave you will notice the forums you passed up to come here and argue for your "Character Fix" (that sounds so much nicer than "argue for rangers to be nerfed"...which is what it honestly is).<BR> Over there you will see the wizard and warlock forums...I know you tried talking about your "fix" in those forums but strangely, I see that many many of your own classes (wiz and war) dont agree with you about "fixing" rangers.<BR> And further on down the line here are mage forums, over there are the spells abilities and combat arts. That could be a nice haven for you to expound on your "fix". There are also the combat and encounters forum...not quite a skintight fit but...could work for you.<BR> However, let me show you this huge mansion of a forum right here...it is called The Glass House. It is called such to remind folks that you shouldnt throw stones when you live in a...you guessed it...Glass House. Because you may just destroy your home in the process. I have a feeling this is where this argument belongs. <BR><BR>Again, as stated in previous posts, I apologize rangers...but I have to say, some folks need to get bent, get lost, and if they are lucky, get a life.<BR><BR>Peace Health and Happiness<BR>Saihung Talechaser<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly the problem is not rangers it is their ability to be buffed by other classes.

spo

01-05-2006, 06:54 AM

<div>Hi!</div><div>Simple answer: You are good.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

01-05-2006, 10:53 AM

<P>There are a lot of things unbalanced in the game.</P> <P>But some of the posts on forums are imho facts that are "altered" to prove a point and taken out of the big picture.</P> <P>One can call nerf for rangers if you want but I doubt we will have any bigger nerf on us. Especially since we are probl where we should be.</P> <P>You can point at that ranger and say "hey he dps for 1500". Sure I can do that too, for about 3 seconds then its back to good ol 700-1100 dps over all on a long fight (depending on what I fight and what person and class is tanking and whatever buffs I get and debuffs a mob get from another utility class)</P> <P>I can see wizzards having a problem with low overall dps yes. But no I cant see after SOE lowered mobs hp, that we as rangers do too much dps cuz the mobs go down too fast so we need to get nerfed.</P> <P>So what you want is that wizzards do more dps (a justified demand imo)</P> <P> </P> <P>But no, going to ranger forum and call for nerfs wont get you more dps and probl not a nerf on rangers.</P> <P>Not sure when I was a kid my first thing to do was not to say "Papa my sister has that I want you to take it away from her and give it to me" would get me anything, so when I grew up and got wiser I understod why. You just dont get things from the world by saying "I should have more and you should have less" as an argument.</P>

Balmung of the Azure Sky

01-05-2006, 12:55 PM

<P>Just a few things to note all, not some, but all mages have poor anti-aggro:</P> <P>Group: troubador, necro, conj, wizzy, warlock, illusionist, paladin (troubadors hate reduc song on alins tranquil serenade ad3 which is 49% hate generation reduction to all non fighters in group. paladin has amends a hate siphon on troubador at the time.</P> <P>-cast precision of the maestro (back when all the damage proc came from the troubador)</P> <DIV>-have the group dump everything they can into the burn time.</DIV> <DIV>-even with all of us dumping anti-aggro, and hate siphoning reduced hate while the raid tank is dumping into taunts and recieving his own hate feed from assassin i think, I took all the aggro and died after almost the entire minute (what precision used to run for) and I would bit the dirt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>scenario 2</DIV> <DIV>same thing except there is no hate reduc or siphoning this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i got aggro, died within 10 seconds of casting the proc buff, then each of the mages in group followed almost instantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario 3</DIV> <DIV>*After Precision of the Maestro is made for the players sepraetly to proc the dmg and only lasts for 20 sec, like blade chime*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the aggro reduction and hate siphoning the mages could not make it through the 20 seconds without one or 2 of them dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario 4</DIV> <DIV>no hate reduction and no hate siphoning.</DIV> <DIV>we wiped our group which then wiped the raid. we did not last the full 20 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*ON THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM*</DIV> <DIV>have hate reduction (toubador hate reduc) to a group of rangers using stream of arrows and they have their hate reduc as well (primal agility?) have a dirge cast cacophany of blades (blade chime) not one ranger gets tagged, nor if they dumped into the mob along with stream of arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Goes to show that a lot of points are true. I wasn't sure myself so I looked at my old logs and compared the data. Tried the ranger thing recently though. But I think I would be upset too. Rangers have some good debuffs like any other class, but for an equivelant to ranger (wizard we'll use) keep up with each other in the dmg abilities they are using. (low-medium-high dmg spells/ca's) The wizard will get the shaft way ahead of the ranger. Im not sure if spell and melee damage aggro is calculated differently, but there's no reason why both of these types of dps classes shouldn't have equal hate reduction, or lessen the scout hate reduction altogether for the predators and rogues. Yes, we all agree that ogues and predators need the reduction, but not in a way that they are made untouchable. Rangers also have debuffs (snipe, foresters noose, debillitating arrow and a couple more) some don't realize what rangers are able to do, they mostly ahve a damage attack pasted to the debuff shots. If you also look at the abilities of wizards and rangers, they both only have i think 3 debuffs each for T6. That looks equal to me so no one can use the "well you can debuff and this and that" defense. Rangers themselves do not need to be nerfed, but the aggro reduction capability of mages and scouts does need a good look over. </DIV>

Jay

01-05-2006, 05:42 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Poochymama p wrote: <P>Exactly the problem is not rangers it is their ability to be buffed by other classes.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well... on behalf of rangers everywhere, I apologize for our ability to be buffed by other classes. We'll try and knock it off. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Jay

01-05-2006, 05:52 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Goes to show that a lot of points are true. I wasn't sure myself so I looked at my old logs and compared the data. Tried the ranger thing recently though. But I think I would be upset too. Rangers have some good debuffs like any other class, but for an equivelant to ranger (wizard we'll use) keep up with each other in the dmg abilities they are using. (low-medium-high dmg spells/ca's) <FONT color=#ffff33>The wizard will get the shaft way ahead of the ranger.</FONT> Im not sure if spell and melee damage aggro is calculated differently, but there's no reason why both of these types of dps classes shouldn't have equal hate reduction, or lessen the scout hate reduction altogether for the predators and rogues. Yes, we all agree that ogues and predators need the reduction, but not in a way that they are made untouchable. Rangers also have debuffs (snipe, foresters noose, debillitating arrow and a couple more) some don't realize what rangers are able to do, they mostly ahve a damage attack pasted to the debuff shots. If you also look at the abilities of wizards and rangers, they both only have i think 3 debuffs each for T6. That looks equal to me so no one can use the "well you can debuff and this and that" defense. <FONT color=#ffff33>Rangers themselves do not need to be nerfed, but the aggro reduction capability of mages and scouts does need a good look over.</FONT> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hokay! So we're all in agreement then? Mages have lame aggro-reduction and can't do the damage that we rangers can because of hate generation, so the precious Tier 1 DPS hierarchy is unbalanced. (Nevermind the entire rest of the game, we'll leave that alone for now.) Sorcs in general need a DPS boost on raids or something to enable them to be more effective in long fights. Right? And as for that minefield known as "utility," we'll just call it about equal for the sake of concluding this whole 'discussion.' </P> <P>So, cool, we're set then right? Mages, thank you for stopping by, I'm glad we could help you figure out some of the problems with your classes. If you feel it necessary and/or useful, go ahead and post these conclusions on a more appropriate forum (if you assume that the Devs need that information). Let the SOE gods balance things as they see fit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

Dasanhgul

01-05-2006, 07:24 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote: <P>So, cool, we're set then right? Mages, thank you for stopping by, I'm glad we could help you figure out some of the problems with your classes.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And make sure you take this with you guys on the way out... ohhhh watch that step <EM><oops></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4626/nerfbat3gi.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Saihung23

01-05-2006, 10:07 PM

I just wanted to let you folks in on a conversation I had with one of my friends who plays a wizard main. He thought it to be hypocritical of me to post in the wizard forums if I had a problem with them posting here. After a dicussion (not as lively as the ones we have on here mind you <span>:smileywink:</span> ) he understood what I was doing and how it is inherently different than what irked me about all of this. 1) I only have a problem when someone decides that they must post in a forum that has nothing to do with the class in question. If a wizard has a problem with how much damage they do compared to ANYONE else, they should post in a wizard forum or combat forum. I.E. A paladin has a problem with how well guardians manage agro...should he post in the guardian forum or the paladin forum...obviously the paladin. 2) I have nooo problem with someone who plays mainly another class coming over and giving us suggestions or trying to determine our function in a group or strats. I.E. That same paladin who had a problem with guardians wants to know what kind of de agro rangers have and what steps we take to reduce our agro. Maybe he is critical of how we do things...THAT IS GREAT!! Woohoo I say...woohoo. Another class came to our forums to discuss something that is in direct relation to our class. I encourage that wholeheartedly. 3)If someone is coming to any forum to start discussions on how their class is borked because ours needs to be nerfed...well, I dont think that would fly in any forum. If any of the folks who posted here feel like they were mistreated I do apologize but you should understand that you did not come here to make nice nice, you came to incense our community. And that will not get you the welcome mat brought out. I can appreciate the discussion but not the approach nor the place. I honestly look forward to discussing this in another forum. Peace Health and Happiness Saihung <div></div>

Khevy

01-05-2006, 10:13 PM

<P>I find this funny that other classes want our abilities. Honestly I think this is a reflection on society today where (Everyone gets an "A"). We are not all equal and we should not all have the same abillities. It is what makes us unique. I am sure there are things socerer's and Wizards can do that we cannot. I have no desire to have their abilities. 30% of our DPS costs us money. None of your DPS costs you money. You can AOE nuke. I cannot (2 AOE skils, one of them sucks). etc.</P> <P>I am curious, would wizards be willing to give up the ability to solo named heroics as well as have to buy potions that would increase their DPS just to be equal with us in DPS?</P> <P>Each class can do things others cannot do. Each is better than others in certain situations. The Devs have a very hard problem of trying to balance a game that has so many variables. It is almost impossible to perfectly balance for both raids and normal play.</P>

Sokolov

01-06-2006, 12:05 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Khevynn wrote:<div></div> <p>I am curious, would wizards be willing to give up the ability to solo named heroics as well as have to buy potions that would increase their DPS just to be equal with us in DPS?</p> <hr></blockquote>Firstly, I thought rangers could solo named heroics too. Secondly, I think that, unlike rangers who seem to hate buying poisons, most sorcerers would be happy to buy potions that increases their DPS by the same amount that poisons currently do for rangers. Heck, most Sorcerers I know carry around INT potions as it is.</span><div></div>

Carna

01-06-2006, 01:47 AM

<P>So was that a "yes" you'd be prepared to give up some solo ability for more DPS?... I'm not sure that you actually answered his question.</P> <P>Or was it a "no" you'd not be prepared to give up some solo ability for more DPS?</P>

Sokolov

01-06-2006, 02:07 AM

I wasn't attempting to. I was pointing out that his question appears to have quesitonable assumptions (i.e. Wizards can solo heroic encounters but Rangers cannot). <div></div>

Khevy

01-06-2006, 03:16 AM

<DIV>While I am sure there are a few Rangers that can solo Named Heroics, I cannot. Not that I have put much time in attempting to but once we get into melee range we get owned badly. After the recent change to Poisions it is even worse since a nice chunk of our melee damage was taken away (No I am not complaining about that, I like sitting in the rear shooting arrows). I would guess Rangers who can do it make extensive use of Stun poisons (add even more cost in). However wizards can do it without getting touched and at no cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers are not complaining about buying poisons, its the fact that our DPS costs us money where as yours does not. Also don't give me that BS that Wizards walk around with int potions. They cost no where near what Adeste's Disruption costs us. Besides I carry 2 Different Damage posions, 2 Different Debuffs and a Stifle poison as well as a Str potion. Wizard potion costs equal no where near what mine do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But why don't you address my whole post instead of picking and choosing. we all do not need the same abilities!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly I don't see Sony making a change in wizards. You can solo great, and you do good DPS in raids, honeslty to give yo more DPS would unbalance you. I don't think Sony wants to make Wizards into Rangers who cast spells instead of arrows. It kid of defeats the purpose of individuality. One thing to remember is that this is a MMO, and everything is subject to change at any point reguardless what the box or manual stated when you bought the game. Yes rangers are enjoying the good life for now but I am sure at some point someone else will get their turn to shine.</DIV>

The_Wind

01-06-2006, 03:17 AM

The only reason most rangers can solo heroics like that is because of poison. Wizards, can do it on the fly without pre-reqs. I think that is what the guy was trying to get at. Take away the stun poison, the damage poisons, our dps is decreased by, as some have said about 30%, and without the stuns the mobs beat us down, esp now that they can catch us. True, we have snares, we have roots. Snares are great, as long as you don't wanna hit the mob, root is good, too bad it takes 3 min to recast, oh and then pray that something else running around the area doesn't trigger it first, like one of those damned non-aggro [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] rats runnin around PoF. But this whole issue isn't about being able to solo heroics now is it? This issue was about being able to do the same damage output in raids as their counterpart T1 damage dealers. Or was it about aggro control holding the man down? Or was it about utility, and how it is defined herein? I forget, this topic has changed stances so many times its not funny anymore. <div></div>

Sokolov

01-06-2006, 03:21 AM

Why don't you address the whole thread instead some of the posts? *shrug* First, I don't play a wizard. Second, at level 43, I can solo most heroics, named or otherwise. Altho I do not understand how the poison change affects a ranger's solo ability as a ranger's greatest strength is ranged. Third, if we assume that wizard DPS is lower than ranger DPS, and ranger DPS is augmented by paid for poisons, then the question is - <b>how does ranger DPS compare when there are NO poisons available to the ranger?</b> Viewed from that prespective, the ability to USE poisons, even tho it costs plat, is a BOON for the class because it is AVAILABLE. My feeling is that the potential for extra damage is a good thing. <b>Rangers have a choice to augment DPS with coin, wizards don't - yet rangers cite this ability whic is arguably an ADVANTAGE as a disadvantage.</b> <div></div>

Khevy

01-06-2006, 03:33 AM

<DIV>you dont' understand how the poison change affected the ranger's solo ability? Ok, the change that was made does not allow poison to proc off your secondary weapon, only your primary, so you just lost a good chunk of melee damage. Your right about the biggest strength being ranged but at some point you have to go to melee with the mob, you get 2 bowshots off then you go into melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have suggested that someone Parse out Ranger DPS with no poison and compare it to wizard DPS. Rangers do NOT cite poison as a disadvantage we cite it as an advantage that comes with a COST that no one else has to bear. </DIV>

Sokolov

01-06-2006, 04:37 AM

<div></div>For me, the change affects ranger particularly little as it has no effect on the ranger's greatest advantage, CA procs off the bow's high delay. Even still, it only affects autoattacks with your offhand - CAs still proc (or should) so... you are looking at very little change in the overall picture. As for soloing specifically, I never melee when I solo with my ranger. That would be silly - like asking to be beat up =/ I don't know what you solo, but when I solo things can kill me in 3 or 4 hits >< there's no chance I am landing a melee hit. (Gotta love the ranged melee hits tho.) Assuming I DO melee for like... 2 attack rounds, the liklihood i would've procced with my offhand on a couple attacks (provided they aren't overlapped by a CA) is kind of low even before the change. Of course, if you are soloing stuff where you can melee a lot... I doubt there is much trouble anyway. And as for NAMED, which is where we started, I don't see any ranger meleeing a named heroic and living to tell the tale. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

Sokolov

01-06-2006, 04:39 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Khevynn wrote:<div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I have suggested that someone Parse out Ranger DPS with no poison and compare it to wizard DPS. Rangers do NOT cite poison as a disadvantage we cite it as an advantage that comes with a COST that no one else has to bear. </div><hr></blockquote> Totally agree. I'd love to see a parse of this type. Someone do it please! =D To me, it's kind of odd that only a few classes in the game has the ability to so dramatically increase DPS with some coin. (Of course, rangers get the highest benefit due to the high delay of the bow, but that's a different story.)</span><div></div>

The_Wind

01-06-2006, 04:55 AM

<div></div>You want to compare with the ability to augment vs poison. Ok fine. Where does the poison actually cause a problem? In raid DPS, right? So, take away all poisons from rangers, and maybe their damage might be equal to the wizards. Fine fine, thats considerable. Take away an advantage to put them on par with their peers. That I can understand, except that it unbalances the solo game. Again, most rangers who solo heroics, do so with poisons being their main advantage. Wizards don't have them, however, and are still able to maintain their ability to solo heroics. At what point does it become fair then? Right right, still not fair, ok lets see. Lets not take away all of the rangers poisons, just the damage ones, that way rangers still maintain their utility poisons to compensate. Sounds possible, that might be a fix, but what would that do vs assassin DPS? I'm not quite sure to tell you the truth as I don't see many assassins in here anymore wishing for more DPS. I think they kinda got what they wanted, although this whole mainhand poison proc thing probably peeved them off a bit. So really, the only logical solution for this is to tone down the damage aspects of poisons. Of course, that would affect rogues, and assassins more than Rangers considering they're only able to proc poison off mainhand now, and rangers would still be at an advantage with their bows. So the whole mainhand thing is where the issue comes in. They shoulda left it to proc off both weapons, but reduce the overall quality of damage coming from the procs. If the utility poisons, stun being the one of choice here, is what caused the whole mainhand only issue to begin with, then make all utility poisons proc off mainhand and bow, but damage proc off both. It would reduce the number of utility procs, all the while maintaining the damage procs, but at reduced quality. Wait tho, that still doesn't solve the whole issue of wizards not bein able to keep up. So where do we go from there? Wait thats right, we don't. Thats WIZARDS business. Wrong forum. <div></div><p>Message Edited by The_Wind on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

pharacyde

01-06-2006, 08:35 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Khevynn wrote:<div>you dont' understand how the poison change affected the ranger's solo ability? Ok, the change that was made does not allow poison to proc off your secondary weapon, only your primary, so you just lost a good chunk of melee damage. Your right about the biggest strength being ranged but at some point you have to go to melee with the mob, you get 2 bowshots off then you go into melee.</div> <div> </div> <div>I have suggested that someone Parse out Ranger DPS with no poison and compare it to wizard DPS. Rangers do NOT cite poison as a disadvantage we cite it as an advantage that comes with a COST that no one else has to bear. </div><hr></blockquote>Are you serious only 2 bow shots. What about that back shot that snares the mob, then that doulbe and triple shot, stun the mob move back and do two more bow shots. But seriously on solo mobs most of them are dead after two bow shots and a bit of melee. I can see how that proc change can affect the group or raid dps a bit, but for solo mobs ... Now about the price of poison ... You can buy poison from the merchants in Q, which is as good as the handcrafted non legendary poison. It doesn't cost that much. I understand you want the best for raids, and that's your choice. But you see you have a choice, good or uber poison. Mages don't get that choice.</span><div></div>

Gareorn

01-06-2006, 09:06 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pharacyde wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Now about the price of poison ... You can buy poison from the merchants in Q, which is as good as the handcrafted non legendary poison. </SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is so not right. NPC sold poisons don't even come close to crafted. A crafted poison gives you 1400 charges, NPC poisons give you 500 and they get resisted more than twice as often. Some mobs they hardly touch at all. All that, and when they do hit the mob, they do less damage. For the cost, you'd be better off not using poisons at all.<BR>

Jay

01-06-2006, 11:28 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:<span>Now about the price of poison ... You can buy poison from the merchants in Q, which is as good as the handcrafted non legendary poison. It doesn't cost that much. I understand you want the best for raids, and that's your choice. But you see you have a choice, good or uber poison. Mages don't get that choice.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Boo hoo for the mages, then. Seriously, what you don't seem to grasp is that our DPS is designed with the assumption that we're using tier-appropriate poisons. Poison is NOT "extra" DPS, it's necessary to attain the damage output we're expected to have. Do you really want your spells to be reduced to 70% of their damage capacity and then buy some potions to regain that 30%?</p><p>No, using poisons is not a burden, but it's not the unconditional bonus that mages seem to think it is. If we don't use poisons, our damage falls far short of where SOE intended it to be. So yes, it's a choice, just like wearing armor is a choice. You don't HAVE to use it, but it'd be pretty foolish not to.</p>

Poochymama

01-07-2006, 03:11 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<p>Exactly the problem is not rangers it is their ability to be buffed by other classes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well... on behalf of rangers everywhere, I apologize for our ability to be buffed by other classes. We'll try and knock it off. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>I wouldnt do that cuase then you wouldnt be t1 dps anymore on raids. Wizards just need that same opurtunity to be buffes so they can share the love with you guys.

pharacyde

01-07-2006, 03:32 AM

Well I was saying for just doing normal mobs the generic poison was good enough. Of course for raids you need better ones or you will get resisted.Now, this is what you are totaly right about. That poison is part of your dps. When you compare a sorcerer to a predator in normal groups. Tank + healer + melee dps compared to Tank + healer + caster dps then both classes are probably about the same in dps. They are all T1. If you remove the poison from your dps you will fall short.But here is the problem we are talking about on that other thread you are refering to. The problem is that when you put the group settings correctly you can boost the dps from melee classes alot more then the dps from casters. This doesn't call for any nerfs for rangers or assassins in any way. Because T1 is balanced out of raids. The problem exists only in raids. So we were just asking for buffs, procs, haste items, haste buffs or any way to boost the dps from mages in riads and raids only. We only want it in raids so we wouldn't be overpowered in solo or group situations.I hope this explains what we actualy want to achieve for the end game.<div></div>

Stormhawk

01-07-2006, 04:20 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>Secondly, I think that, unlike rangers who seem to hate buying poisons, most sorcerers would be happy to buy potions that increases their DPS by the same amount that poisons currently do for rangers. Heck, most Sorcerers I know carry around INT potions as it is.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't think it is an issue with Rangers hating purchasing poison. I think we are just trying to relay the fact is used to be VERY costly to upkeep and still sort of is if you use poison to their full potential meaning damage, debuff and stun/stifle/slow up at all times. We solo named with that combo and you aren't going to really solo non-green names without a stun potion which drops *very* quickly. Wizards on the other hand do not have to rely on this to solo heriocs.I have no issues with them adding some beneficial potions for yalls DPS. With the exception that poisons remain more powerful as they are a staple of predator life and the debuff versions of sorcerer poison never exist as you already have additional utility in spell form.</span><div></div>

The_Wind

01-07-2006, 10:24 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:Well I was saying for just doing normal mobs the generic poison was good enough. Of course for raids you need better ones or you will get resisted.Now, this is what you are totaly right about. That poison is part of your dps. When you compare a sorcerer to a predator in normal groups. Tank + healer + melee dps compared to Tank + healer + caster dps then both classes are probably about the same in dps. They are all T1. If you remove the poison from your dps you will fall short.But here is the problem we are talking about on that other thread you are refering to. The problem is that when you put the group settings correctly you can boost the dps from melee classes alot more then the dps from casters. This doesn't call for any nerfs for rangers or assassins in any way. Because T1 is balanced out of raids. The problem exists only in raids. So we were just asking for buffs, procs, haste items, haste buffs or any way to boost the dps from mages in riads and raids only. We only want it in raids so we wouldn't be overpowered in solo or group situations.I hope this explains what we actualy want to achieve for the end game.<div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Best way i've heard it explained Phara. That is the constructive type of commenting we here have been asking for. I salute you! But still, I question the necessity of it being on this forum. I mean, we are rangers really, not wizards, or warlocks. Granted, it didn't start out as elegantly put as you have. So it was quite different situation. But now that the constructive thinking has begun, lets continue it, and see if maybe we rangers can help you guys now, get to where you need to be. I'd be more than happy to post along side of thinking on these terms.<div></div>

Khevy

01-09-2006, 08:30 PM

<div>You know everyone is getting all spun up over this (Myself included), but I got a serious question to ask......When was the last time a wizard was booted from a raid in favor of Ranger for not doing enough DPS? For that matter when was a Wizard ever told you do not do enough DPS on a raid for you to come? Seems like we are all making much to do about nothing. Honestly, it is starting to seem like whose %#@& is the longest type complaint.</div>

Admh

01-09-2006, 09:09 PM

<div></div><div>I hate rangers because... I have to chase them all the time whenever they ask for my fire proc that has a casting distance of 10m :smileymad:</div><div> </div><div>Lol beyond that, you guys are alright.. ya'll don't need nerfage. The wizards that mostly complain are peeps who are also envious of summoners. Raiding doesn't necessarity mean that you have to be the best dps. As a ranger that's your job.. you pummel the hell that's in the mob, but as a wizard, we have other roles such as mana dumps, fire procs etc. It's not all about the glory of an individual, but the glory of a team once a big bad boss mob is dead.</div><div> </div><div>Besides, I wouldn't want SoE to take my ability to solo any ^^^ yellow mob. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Sokolov

01-10-2006, 01:41 AM

<div></div><div></div>For those who mention stuff like "Wizards do just as much DPS" or "Some wizard saw a ranger beat him on one raid and assumes it's all like that," you may want to look at this thread:<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020</a><span><blockquote><hr>Asterra wrote:I've taken a moment to reference the parses provided by the OP and calculate averages, since there was a decently large sample to generate averages from. Because of the sporadic participation of relevant classes, I have ignored all encounters where the classes in question did not participate. Further, when more than one specimen of a given class was in a given encounter, I averaged both of them and used the result as a single individual. The results:Over the course of 18 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 523.686 DPS, vs conjurors' (tier 2) 748.061 DPS.Over the course of 18 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 555.232 DPS, vs rangers' (tier 1) 971.748 DPS.Over the course of 10 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 514.725 DPS, vs necromancers' (tier 2) 641.575 DPS.Over the course of 22 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 517.155 DPS, vs brigands' (tier 2) 557.931 DPS.I need to stress that these are averages of <i>multiple</i> raid encounters, not one-shot anomalies. Speaking from experience, assassins rank up there with conjurors on such encounters, although none were available in these parses. The unavoidable discrepancy is that wizards are doing some 85% too few DPS. This is the reason why literally nobody is trying to pretend that wizards are fine the way they are. Not even the aforementioned crazy troll.<hr></blockquote></span><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:44 PM</span></p>

coltla

01-10-2006, 02:22 AM

<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><div></div>For those who mention stuff like "Wizards do just as much DPS" or "Some wizard saw a ranger beat him on one raid and assumes it's all like that," you may want to look at this thread:<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020</a><span><blockquote><hr>Asterra wrote:I've taken a moment to reference the parses provided by the OP and calculate averages, since there was a decently large sample to generate averages from. Because of the sporadic participation of relevant classes, I have ignored all encounters where the classes in question did not participate. Further, when more than one specimen of a given class was in a given encounter, I averaged both of them and used the result as a single individual. The results:Over the course of 18 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 523.686 DPS, vs conjurors' (tier 2) 748.061 DPS.Over the course of 18 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 555.232 DPS, vs rangers' (tier 1) 971.748 DPS.Over the course of 10 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 514.725 DPS, vs necromancers' (tier 2) 641.575 DPS.Over the course of 22 fights, wizards (tier 1) averaged 517.155 DPS, vs brigands' (tier 2) 557.931 DPS.I need to stress that these are averages of <i>multiple</i> raid encounters, not one-shot anomalies. Speaking from experience, assassins rank up there with conjurors on such encounters, although none were available in these parses. The unavoidable discrepancy is that wizards are doing some 85% too few DPS. This is the reason why literally nobody is trying to pretend that wizards are fine the way they are. Not even the aforementioned crazy troll.<hr></blockquote></span><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:44 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If I'm not mistaken this post further illustrates the need for you wizards to take this to the Combat Forums.

Carna

01-10-2006, 02:26 AM

<div></div><p>I'm not sure where the notion of 85% too little dps comes from. To assume that is to assume that Tier 1 is supposed to be doing Ranger levels of dps.</p><p><em>Maybe</em> the Brigand at 550 dps is in the right place for Tier 2, and <em>maybe</em> the appropriate place then for the Wizard to be is 750 dps. Somewhere around where the poster speculates Assassins as Tier 1 currently are.</p><p>An awaful lot of angst among Asassins and Wizards -- allowing that Wizard are definately short of where any reasonable measure might be -- is that Rangers are taken as where Tier 1 is supposed to be. I personally dispute the validity of that assumtion. I'm not convinced Tier 1 is supposed to be outperfoming Tier 2 by up to 85% (and I note this is the upper limit not the average margin).</p><p>I think a lot of people are quietly aware that Rangers are enjoying a "golden era" and personally I'm happy not to rock the boat, and to let them enjoy it. We're all capable of rolling a Ranger if we desperately feel the need to be uber. But I don't think it's valid that we distort our view into thinking that's how things are supposed to be.</p><p>My concern arises from the fact that Rogues (Tier 2) are a very underrepresented pair of classes, and if you run away with widening Tier 1 and 2 damage differences you'll simply do away with representation of those classes completely... a couple of times I've realised there's only myself and one other Brigand logged into the server... Despite the very real issues of the Wizard, that do need addressed as a matter of importance, the class is very far from underrespresented.</p><p>I get very concerned when I see fights with Rogues parsing 750 and Rangers parsing 1400. That's <strong><em>not</em></strong> how it's meant to be. And it should not be where Wizards think they should be. I'm happy to shrug and simply let Ranger have their fun, but if Wizards and Assassins start clamouring to be at that point then we need to revisit what the hell is happening with bow procs, and what the hell is happening with Conjurors.... I personally think Wizards and Conjurors need to swap places, and we should just pretend bow procs aren't working the way they are.</p>

Sokolov

01-10-2006, 02:37 AM

I agree.For me, there is no "X class is supposed to have YYY DPS." There is no such gauge. The only thing we really have is the released DPS tier which is a RELATIVE statement. Thus, we cannot say that "X class is okay where they are" IF they are not relatively situated in their DPS tier. I see NO basis for any player to come and say "My class' DPS is right where it should be." I mean, what does that even MEAN? It doesn't actually mean anything without context! As a multi-archtype player, when classes are doing DPS values relatively to their supposed DPS tier placements, that's when I will be happy.The point here, folks, is NOT whether Rangers are doing too much damage period. It's whether the DPS classes are performing to spec (i.e. damage consistent with their DPS peer group and relatively following the DPS tier chart).<div></div>

Gareorn

01-10-2006, 04:36 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>For those who mention stuff like "Wizards do just as much DPS" or "Some wizard saw a ranger beat him on one raid and assumes it's all like that," you may want to look at this thread:<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020</a><span></p><p></p><hr><p>I read that last week. As it was posted in the appropriate forum, it may actually get some attention.</p></span></blockquote>

tweety1972

01-10-2006, 05:30 AM

<div></div><p>How long before this gets shut down?</p><p>I have a few issues with the mage class but one is above all others. They (all but 1) are all stuck up. Just once have I met a mage that has said more than 3 words to me, and every time I run in to a mage that person looks on everyone else with contempt. (no I am not blaming all mages just the ones I have met) So it does not supprise me much that someone from the mage class posts here, but while mage classes have some other uses in raids rangers have but one. So if we can not out parse in dps what good are we? If we can not help the team we will be on our own or at the mercy of "guilt" invitations so we can actually raid. Why is that hard to understand?</p><p>Side note Jay42 why do you have so much time to post??? hehe (Its a joke)</p>

Jayad

01-10-2006, 06:32 AM

<div>Having both a T6 ranger and wizard, i can tell you the ranger does better dps in a group setting by far. They are similarly equipped. The wizard actually fares better in longer fights such as raids or in multi-mob encounters, but not enough to make up for the rest. In your typical group fighting where the mob dies fairly quickly, it's not even close. </div><div> </div><div>On the other hand, paying for t6 poisons really hurts so... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>The wizard also has more util for a group, although not enough to make up for the dps gap.</div><div> </div><div>If there was caster gear available that would raise the wizard's int to the same level that the scouts get str and agi (1 skill capped versus 2), then I think it would be even. So it may not be a skill problem so much as not being able to max out the skills for the wizard. The scout gets far more stats from their gear towards their damage since they split 2, whereas the wizard needs int very badly to do damage, and it's hard to find a lot of int. Even if you get a lot of int, you get capped...</div><div> </div><div>Just my thoughts.</div>

ShadarLoco

01-10-2006, 07:31 AM

<div></div><div></div><div>ok here the deal all you wizies and other cloth types you guys get group buffs and the like pets and all manor of cool things</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Ranger on the other hand get 2 self buffs agro control and haste... we also have short lasting buffs self only of 10 second haste 36 second haste and a 1 min haste with ever growing recast, and pathfinding thats it the rest is dps thats all.... no group str buffs no power feeds no nothing we bring nothing to the raid but dps and we have to pay for that...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>my last bill for posions was 12pp... for 120 poisons that will last me to expation........... thats not counting arrows.</div><p>Message Edited by ShadarLocoth on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:33 PM</span></p>

Saihung23

01-10-2006, 08:16 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Admhel wrote:<div></div><div>I hate rangers because... I have to chase them all the time whenever they ask for my fire proc that has a casting distance of 10m :smileymad:</div><div> </div><div>Lol beyond that, you guys are alright.. ya'll don't need nerfage. <font color="#ff0000">The wizards that mostly complain are peeps who are also envious of summoners. Raiding doesn't necessarity mean that you have to be the best dps. As a ranger that's your job.. you pummel the hell that's in the mob, but as a wizard, we have other roles such as mana dumps, fire procs etc. It's not all about the glory of an individual, but the glory of a team once a big bad boss mob is dead</font>.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Besides, I wouldn't want SoE to take my ability to solo any ^^^ yellow mob. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div><p></p><p></p><hr><p>QFE</p><p></p></blockquote>

Yaotzi

02-07-2006, 10:06 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div>Having both a T6 ranger and wizard, i can tell you the ranger does better dps in a group setting by far. They are similarly equipped. The wizard actually fares better in longer fights such as raids or in multi-mob encounters, but not enough to make up for the rest. In your typical group fighting where the mob dies fairly quickly, it's not even close. </div><div> </div><div>On the other hand, paying for t6 poisons really hurts so... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>The wizard also has more util for a group, although not enough to make up for the dps gap.</div><div> </div><div>If there was caster gear available that would raise the wizard's int to the same level that the scouts get str and agi (1 skill capped versus 2), then I think it would be even. So it may not be a skill problem so much as not being able to max out the skills for the wizard. The scout gets far more stats from their gear towards their damage since they split 2, whereas the wizard needs int very badly to do damage, and it's hard to find a lot of int. Even if you get a lot of int, you get capped...</div><div> </div><div>Just my thoughts.</div><hr></blockquote>Int is not hard to get,</span><div></div>