Can you hear the nerf bat calling?

[Icehunter612]

<DIV>I was reading the wizard forums cuz my alt is a lvl 38 wizard, and found this post right here.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=18505" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=18505</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read the entire thing. Wizzys are about to start spaming feedback board becuz they are [Removed for Content] off. Not like anybody DIDN'T see this coming but prepare yourselves.</DIV></DIV>

[King Leor]

<P>Ya, I remember reading that the other day as well. Kinda silly. Our snare as effective as a root. Please, roots hold mobs. snares slow em down. And as for stuns. Well, we get em from poisons which = pricey. Oh well. I think were safe. prolly no need to worry.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[Jay]

I responded. Don't follow my example, please. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Having a horde of rangers come crashing down on that thread will just increase the hate, and our hate reducers are still refreshing from the last attack. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Very good response.  I'm not going to troll the wizzy board, although it is very tempting when they open themselves up like that, especially when making statements like:</DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>"As we are trying to point out, RANGERS ARE BETTER THEN WIZARDS and its NOT APPLES TO ORANGES...."</FONT></P><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> <P>Of course rangers are better than wizards.  We have a much higher drop rate.  Most people who try to play a ranger never make it to level 30 before they quit and re-roll a new character.  At least we now know what class all those ranger drop-outs play.</P></DIV>

[Kyriel]

Most people dont seem to realize that it is nto evey single player of a class that can do this type of stuff, gear , spells, combinations has a lot to do with it.  Rangers are not equal some will prevail same as any other class, some zerkers can do triple up heroics their equal lvl some cant. It jsut depends on how well you know your class.

[black_cap]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zemfira wrote:Most people dont seem to realize that it is nto evey single player of a class that can do this type of stuff, gear , spells, combinations has a lot to do with it.  Rangers are not equal some will prevail same as any other class, some zerkers can do triple up heroics their equal lvl some cant. It jsut depends on how well you know your class. <div></div><hr></blockquote>100% agreed.  Most classes have the ability to if they know how to play and play their class well.</span><div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:I responded. Don't follow my example, please. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Having a horde of rangers come crashing down on that thread will just increase the hate, and our hate reducers are still refreshing from the last attack. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sry, i just HAD to post there too... Im sick of those nerf calling whiners who dont get their facts straight and dont learn to play their classes and/or learn how to use their own skills/spells best in a group and instead concentrate on whining for nerf to other classes. Bleh... ++Xan

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>xandez wrote:<blockquote><hr></blockquote>Sry, i just HAD to post there too... Im sick of those nerf calling whiners who dont get their facts straight and dont learn to play their classes and/or learn how to use their own skills/spells best in a group and instead concentrate on whining for nerf to other classes. Bleh... ++Xan <hr></blockquote> I noticed the invasion of Rangers on the Wizard board - and felt the urge to go trolling a bit myself <span>:smileyhappy:</span> Do you guys actually think it is <i>fair </i></span><span>that Assassins and Rangers can do 50-100 % more damage on a raid boss mob than a Wizard or warlock ? Wizards or Warlocks has no utility on raids that could balance that kind of DPS discrepancy. It is clear that the problem is underpowered wizards and not overpowered rangers, like 90 % of the people of that thread are saying. The problem is not that wizard is underpowered solo or in groups but on raids. Personally I don't care how they restore balance between the DPS classes - either by nerfing scouts or boosting my Wizard. They got the DPS tiers pretty much right for soloing and exp-groups of 6 people when not everyone has optimal buffs, but on raids when people are properly buffed and everyone is using decent poison they are completely out of order. Since obviously Rangers was a bit broken as DPS class before the revamp,  one might ask for a bit better understanding of our problems than what is evident from the troll posts by rangers like xandez on wizard boards. </span><div></div>

[Alli]

~<span>Personally I don't care how they restore balance between the DPS classes - either by nerfing scouts or boosting my Wizard.~ Nerfing scouts.....see again a broad generalization, saw it alot on the wizard boards. I sure as hell care about how they bring things back into balance.....lets take away all the wizard warlock group buffs, and give them 25%-35% more DPS. That work? I know Assassins and Rangers dont get jack for group buffs.....pathfinding....ooo....16% run speed. in a group nearly useless since everyone at higher lvls has hourses and carpets <span>:smileytongue:</span> . </span><div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> masseman wrote: <P><SPAN>I noticed the invasion of Rangers on the Wizard board - and felt the urge to go trolling a bit myself <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR><BR>Do you guys actually think it is <I>fair </I></SPAN><SPAN>that Assassins and Rangers can do 50-100 % more damage on a raid boss mob than a Wizard or warlock ? Wizards or Warlocks has no utility on raids that could balance that kind of DPS discrepancy.<BR><BR>It is clear that the problem is underpowered wizards and not overpowered rangers, like 90 % of the people of that thread are saying.<BR>The problem is not that wizard is underpowered solo or in groups but on raids. Personally I don't care how they restore balance between the DPS classes - either by nerfing scouts or boosting my Wizard. They got the DPS tiers pretty much right for soloing and exp-groups of 6 people when not everyone has optimal buffs, but on raids when people are properly buffed and everyone is using decent poison they are completely out of order.<BR><BR>Since obviously Rangers was a bit broken as DPS class before the revamp,  one might ask for a bit better understanding of our problems than what is evident from the troll posts by rangers like xandez on wizard boards. </SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thanks for stopping by, and for keeping it constructive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I don't think it's fair, at all. But then, I don't think any of my posts on this issue have said "the current DPS output of all classes is perfect and should not be changed." I don't play a wizard in raids, so I don't know the issues you're facing. You're right, though, the situation generally deserves more of our sympathy than anything else, being fellow DPSers who went through more than six months of gimpery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem (and the reason you're probably not seeing much sympathy) is that the posts we become aware of are the ones calling us overpowered and demanding that WE get nerfed. You can imagine the kind of feeling that generates, right? In a perfect world, we'd all have a clear understanding of every classes' situation and would be able to offer sympathy and/or advice and information to those in need. But unfortunately, most people don't have a ton of insight into the nuances of every class and the effect of patches and changes on those classes. That's why I post in those threads, to try and correct the assumptions that get made about my class - the only one I *do* know a bit about. I sincerely don't mean to trivialize or turn a blind eye to the problems you DO have - unfortunately I'm just not intimately familiar with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps. I'm all for dialogue between our classes if you think it would help, I'm just not sure what we can offer you besides sympathy and encouragement. FWIW, we really did go through a long, difficult time for our class, but it obviously improved - so I'm sure your situation will too. It's just not in SOE's interests to force ppl to play broken classes forever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck out there, I really do hope you guys get some Dev lovin' soon. Take care.</DIV>

[Knayil]

I think something else all these wizards are missing on is they are comparing wizards to all scouts. They are also trying to rely on some parsing program to prove this and not considering that maybe the scout, like me has all master CA's while the wizard had maybe adepts. But then they also forget how much it cost me each fight to do that high dps. So lets examine that... Combat Abilities + Stacks of T6 arrows + T6 poisons +T6 Food & Drink that are constantly used up and have to be purchased vs Spells bought once + T6 Food & Drink. Sure, I will take a nerf if you can balance the cost as well while your at it. Give me some of those group spells, make it so I can summon arrows that arent grey, & poisons that match my level. <div></div>

[xandez]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>I noticed the invasion of Rangers on the Wizard board - and felt the urge to go trolling a bit myself <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>hehee, welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></SPAN><BR>Do you guys actually think it is <I>fair </I></SPAN><SPAN>that Assassins and Rangers can do 50-100 % more damage on a raid boss mob than a Wizard or warlock ? Wizards or Warlocks has no utility on raids that could balance that kind of DPS discrepancy.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Doesnt sound fair, but i think thats situational? Dunno, but the fact is that our DPS can be boosted majorly by STR and INT buffs, also haste buffs are not worthless to us (opposed to wizards)... The raid mobs that resist elemental dmg are certainly the worst case for you. Dunno if the piercing/slashing/blunt resists are that significant, but like i said, our DPS can easily be boosted and boosting yours is not that easy since most of ya tend to keep the INT near max anyways?</FONT><BR><BR>It is clear that the problem is underpowered wizards and not overpowered rangers, like 90 % of the people of that thread are saying.<BR>The problem is not that wizard is underpowered solo or in groups but on raids. Personally I don't care how they restore balance between the DPS classes - either by nerfing scouts or boosting my Wizard. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Personally its not fair that you want us to be balanced according to what is happening on raids. Not all ppl do raids. I know that its common policy to observe the top dogs on each class and make _balances_ according to that. Theres a big difference between the majority average Joe rangers vs. near top raiding rangers. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Im sure the difference is not that great with wizards since (this is my own thinking, have no proof on this) the equipment doesnt matter that much to wizards. You dont need to hit the enemy with your weapons for instance. I think you got the idea...</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>They got the DPS tiers pretty much right for soloing and exp-groups of 6 people when not everyone has optimal buffs, but on raids when people are properly buffed and everyone is using decent poison they are completely out of order. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Well, that might be the case... how to adjust this? Maybe adjust the affect of STR a bit? That would make all melee classes cry i think. The right thing to do would be to upgrade your (wizards/whom it may concern) abilities so that you could keep up in the raid situations also. But usually they tend to do the opposite i.e. nerf the other class, then smile and call it balanced <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><BR><BR>Since obviously Rangers was a bit broken as DPS class before the revamp,  one might ask for a bit better understanding of our problems than what is evident from the troll posts by rangers like xandez on wizard boards. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Excuse me, im not a troll, im a woodelf <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>I just wanna defend my class against ppl like you who seem to cry for our nerf. (Well, thats how i felt after reading your post). And im gonna defend my beliefs and surely if you mock me and/or rangers as a whole, i will defend myself and our class.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>I will not have to write any lies, if the fact that im telling you how things really are is troll posting, well... dunno what these forums are? </FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900><SPAN>Ppl have opinions, sure. Ppl also tend to be a bit subjective. This is the case with me, i 100% confess that.<BR><BR>Nerfing others and calling that balance in any way is wrong. Small adjustements is another thing. Also balancing things according to some individuals (which may have yber gear / spells) is totally wrong. I think you will still hear from this "troll"</SPAN><SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>++Xan</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>"the infamous forum troll"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>ps. all the best to you btw and i hope that you could maybe see things my way too. I kinda already see things your way, just trying to say that the way disgussion is going in wizard forums is not the right way...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>pps. my post on the wiz forum wasnt that bad? or was it? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 PM</span>

[Teksun]

We have been nerfed on raids. We no longer get to root. All we have is damage, and most of that comes from poisons. ALL of our damage in raids comes from a cash expendeture. Summoned arrows rarely work on raids. Legendary poisons START at 12gp and must be reapplied after every wipe. While we MAY do more damage on raids at least Wizards don't have to spend up to 50gp for the privelege... <div></div>

[Saihung23]

Oops...I replied...just saw this thread..hehe...I tried to be nice <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>We have been nerfed on raids. We no longer get to root. All we have is damage, and most of that comes from poisons. <STRONG>ALL </STRONG>of our damage in raids comes from a cash expendeture. Summoned arrows rarely work on raids. Legendary poisons START at 12gp and must be reapplied after every wipe. While we <STRONG>MAY</STRONG> do more damage on raids at least Wizards don't have to spend up to 50gp for the privelege...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ahem.</DIV> <DIV>It's funny sometime the extent to which people will go to make others believe they have it tough....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summon arrows works perfectly for skills and sorry but auto attack is still a very small percentage of our total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If legendary poison is such a burden for you ( by the way for 50g you get 5 vials which is 35 charges on AB, I have yet to wipe 35 times in a day of raiding...) you can use crafted common poison, you will still do 90% of your damage and well as we have to kinda watch our damage in raids and not go full dps you can make up for it by using a few more skills...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At worse in a raid I will spend 1 vial of poison, 1 vial of poison debuff and 1 legendary debuff, that's like 25g total and I can always sweep by Clefft and make up for it in 10 minutes killing the named that are currently up. ( and usuaklly guild will provide some of the poisons at very low cost).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the 'we may do more damage than wizard' , it's not may, we do and you perfectly know it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Saihung23]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ail wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>We have been nerfed on raids. We no longer get to root. All we have is damage, and most of that comes from poisons. <STRONG>ALL </STRONG>of our damage in raids comes from a cash expendeture. Summoned arrows rarely work on raids. Legendary poisons START at 12gp and must be reapplied after every wipe. While we <STRONG>MAY</STRONG> do more damage on raids at least Wizards don't have to spend up to 50gp for the privelege...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ahem.</DIV> <DIV>It's funny sometime the extent to which people will go to make others believe they have it tough....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summon arrows works perfectly for skills and sorry but auto attack is still a very small percentage of our total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If legendary poison is such a burden for you ( by the way for 50g you get 5 vials which is 35 charges on AB, I have yet to wipe 35 times in a day of raiding...) you can use crafted common poison, you will still do 90% of your damage and well as we have to kinda watch our damage in raids and not go full dps you can make up for it by using a few more skills...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At worse in a raid I will spend 1 vial of poison, 1 vial of poison debuff and 1 legendary debuff, that's like 25g total and I can always sweep by Clefft and make up for it in 10 minutes killing the named that are currently up. ( and usuaklly guild will provide some of the poisons at very low cost).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>As for the 'we may do more damage than wizard' , it's not may, we do and you perfectly know it...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont know jack!  I dont have some frelled up parser to know if I do more damage than a wiz.  But I do know that trying to tell someone they know something is accusing them of lying if they dont really know.  I dont...bully for you folks on Bayle getting a good deal on poisons...does that trickle down to me on Faydark? no...so thanks for the info on the 10 pack of poison...I will try buying them like that from now on...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One other thing...summoned arrows do not nearly always work with epics...sure your ca's might...but what if it is immune to piercing...then what buddy?  Just ignore being able to buy arrows that will do autoattack damage? No, not when those auto attacks are sometimes for halfway decent damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God...if you are going to just post argumentative replies for your fellow rangers or accuse them of something...go do it elsewhere.  The attitude isnt appreciated.<BR></DIV>

[massem]

<span><blockquote> <p><font color="#ff9900">ps. all the best to you btw and i hope that you could maybe see things my way too. I kinda already see things your way, just trying to say that the way disgussion is going in wizard forums is not the right way...</font></p> <p> </p> <p><span class="time_text"></span></p> <font color="#ff9900">pps. my post on the wiz forum wasnt that bad? or was it? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> <p><span class="time_text"></span></p> <p>Nah - yours only happened to be last one I read before I decided to switch forums and troll somewhere else, so i used your name as an example when I basically could have used any of them. They were all pretty much the same. This I shouldn't have done - so I apologize for that - "ranger trolls" without any names mentioned would have been more appropriate <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. </p> <p>Cheers, </p> </blockquote></span><div></div>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ail wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>We have been nerfed on raids. We no longer get to root. All we have is damage, and most of that comes from poisons. <STRONG>ALL </STRONG>of our damage in raids comes from a cash expendeture. Summoned arrows rarely work on raids. Legendary poisons START at 12gp and must be reapplied after every wipe. While we <STRONG>MAY</STRONG> do more damage on raids at least Wizards don't have to spend up to 50gp for the privelege...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ahem.</DIV> <DIV>It's funny sometime the extent to which people will go to make others believe they have it tough....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summon arrows works perfectly for skills and sorry but auto attack is still a very small percentage of our total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If legendary poison is such a burden for you ( by the way for 50g you get 5 vials which is 35 charges on AB, I have yet to wipe 35 times in a day of raiding...) you can use crafted common poison, you will still do 90% of your damage and well as we have to kinda watch our damage in raids and not go full dps you can make up for it by using a few more skills...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At worse in a raid I will spend 1 vial of poison, 1 vial of poison debuff and 1 legendary debuff, that's like 25g total and I can always sweep by Clefft and make up for it in 10 minutes killing the named that are currently up. ( and usuaklly guild will provide some of the poisons at very low cost).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>As for the 'we may do more damage than wizard' , it's not may, we do and you perfectly know it...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont know jack!  I dont have some frelled up parser to know if I do more damage than a wiz.  But I do know that trying to tell someone they know something is accusing them of lying if they dont really know.  I dont...bully for you folks on Bayle getting a good deal on poisons...does that trickle down to me on Faydark? no...so thanks for the info on the 10 pack of poison...I will try buying them like that from now on...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One other thing...summoned arrows do not nearly always work with epics...sure your ca's might...but what if it is immune to piercing...then what buddy?  Just ignore being able to buy arrows that will do autoattack damage? No, not when those auto attacks are sometimes for halfway decent damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God...if you are going to just post argumentative replies for your fellow rangers or accuse them of something...go do it elsewhere.  The attitude isnt appreciated.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You don't need a parser to know you are outdamaging a wiz when you are running a 48% hate debuff and they have none and you still pull aggro from them....<BR>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>ps. all the best to you btw and i hope that you could maybe see things my way too. I kinda already see things your way, just trying to say that the way disgussion is going in wizard forums is not the right way...</FONT></P> <P></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P><FONT color=#ff9900>pps. my post on the wiz forum wasnt that bad? or was it? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Nah - yours only happened to be last one I read before I decided to switch forums and troll somewhere else, so i used your name<BR>as an example when I basically could have used any of them. They were all pretty much the same. This I shouldn't have done - so I apologize for that - "ranger trolls" without any names mentioned would have been more appropriate <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN>. <BR></P> <P>Cheers,<BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God I just hate those two words together...[Removed for Content].  Ranger and Troll should never go together.  Unless it is a Troll Ranger ;P

[Saihung23]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well...gee, guess what [Removed for Content] I dont think I have grouped with more than one or two Wizards since creation...so you know what, no, you are still making assumptions and you are still arrogant.</P> <P>And answer me this...if I was grouped with a wizard...what the hell was he doing with agro in the first place?  If he/she had agro...methinks the DPS was pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good.</P> <P>So, go get another scenario bright boy and serve it up to me...</P> <P>Hey here is one...A wizard with all apprentice ones is out DPS'd by a ranger decked out in fabled...BOOO!! no fair nerf the rangers gear, right?</P> <P>Here is another one you probably want to argue for, A wizard ten levels below a particular ranger was out DPS'd by that ranger.  Nerf ranger levelling.</P> <P>Why not go get some parses of a handicapped (item wise and spellwise) wizard grouped with an uber l33t raid ranger?  Then you can use that for your argument....</P> <P>Like I said...I am tired of these arguments...who gives a frack who is doing the most dps, not me! I find it disturbing that your LOGIC says a ranger is overpowered and should be nerfed because of comparisons to wizards.</P> <P>I apologize, and contrary to my post subjected: Dont Move! Dont leave the house! </P> <P>I am leaving...tired of this...and it will continue till I leave...so see you all next time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Peace Health and Happiness         You too Ail :smileymad:</P> <P>Sai</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well...gee, guess what [Removed for Content] I dont think I have grouped with more than one or two Wizards since creation...so you know what, no, you are still making assumptions and you are still arrogant.</P> <P>And answer me this...if I was grouped with a wizard...what the hell was he doing with agro in the first place?  If he/she had agro...methinks the DPS was pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good.</P> <P>So, go get another scenario bright boy and serve it up to me...</P> <P>Hey here is one...A wizard with all apprentice ones is out DPS'd by a ranger decked out in fabled...BOOO!! no fair nerf the rangers gear, right?</P> <P>Here is another one you probably want to argue for, A wizard ten levels below a particular ranger was out DPS'd by that ranger.  Nerf ranger levelling.</P> <P>Why not go get some parses of a handicapped (item wise and spellwise) wizard grouped with an uber l33t raid ranger?  Then you can use that for your argument....</P> <P>Like I said...I am tired of these arguments...who gives a frack who is doing the most dps, not me! I find it disturbing that your LOGIC says a ranger is overpowered and should be nerfed because of comparisons to wizards.</P> <P>I apologize, and contrary to my post subjected: Dont Move! Dont leave the house!</P> <P>I am leaving...tired of this...and it will continue till I leave...so see you all next time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Peace Health and Happiness         You too Ail :smileymad:</P> <P>Sai</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ahem I am going to try to make it look simpler....</P> <P> </P> <P>If you are running primal agility adept 3 ( or even adept 1) it means you run 48% hate debuff.</P> <P>If despite this you still grab aggro in group over anyone it means the following :</P> <P>Your damage *0.52 >> anyone else damage ( including the wizard in group if you have one, wizard are a good example as they have no significant detaunts),</P> <P>Which means that roughly you had to do close to double the damage of any wizard in the group to pass him on the hate list.</P> <P>And I'm not speaking of burst damage, but sustained. A ranger can easilly sustain 800 dps as it is ( more with fabled equipment)  ad vitam eternam, the wizard will be limited by his power pool....</P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Halade]

<P>We all saw the tiering system that SOE is aiming for, but the lines between those tiers were not clearly drawn and implication many have taken is that a wizard/warlock at thier worst would out DPS a scout at their very best because they are in a higher tier, or even that an average wizard/warlock will always out DPS an average scout for the same reason.  As evidenced by player experiences, there is a very fuzzy line if such a line exists at all.  </P> <P>We have nowhere near the data that SOE does.   Parsing our own numbers even over multiple encounters is only indicitive of our own potential.  Very little decisive, and conclusive research has ever been conducted with a single source of data that can be generalized to an entire population over time.  Especially with all the variables that effect the data: gear, player skill, mob characteristics, etc, and lest we not forget the random numbers.</P> <P> </P>

[TaleraRis]

<span><blockquote><hr>xandez wrote: <p><font color="#ff9900"><span>Also balancing things according to some individuals (which may have yber gear / spells) is totally wrong.</span></font></p> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> I completely agree here. Balancing to the top tier only leads to the huge gear gap that raiding and non-raiding players had there, especially if SoE listens in EQ2 and makes raiding gear what the raiders want it to be.  I know it's not quite on the topic of wizard versus ranger, but comparing only the top dogs is a dangerous path to go down. And mass, I only saw two ranger posts by the time you had come to this thread and one of those was Jay. His comments were constructive and trying to explain our situation, and then you come here being antagonistic and inflammatory and have the gall to call *him* a troll? <p><font color="#ff9900"><span> </span></font></p></blockquote></blockquote></span><div></div>

[massem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And mass, I only saw two ranger posts by the time you had come to this thread and one of those was Jay. His comments were constructive and trying to explain our situation, and then you come here being antagonistic and inflammatory and have the gall to call *him* a troll? <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff9900><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then you need to check the date settings of your computer - there were alrealy plenty of posts. I usually don't read the ranger boards but became curious about what had caused this sudden influx of Rangers onto the wizard boards  and ran into this thread by accident.</P> <P>If the intentions are not to troll, why go the wizards forum and try to explain to us that it is ok that wizards have poor DPS on raids because you have to paz for poison to achieve yours ? :smileyhappy:</P><BR>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P align=left><BR>I dont know jack!  I dont have some frelled up parser to know if I do more damage than a wiz.  But I do know that trying to tell someone they know something is accusing them of lying if they dont really know.  I dont...bully for you folks on Bayle getting a good deal on poisons...does that trickle down to me on Faydark? no...so thanks for the info on the 10 pack of poison...I will try buying them like that from now on...</P> <DIV>One other thing...summoned arrows do not nearly always work with epics...sure your ca's might...but what if it is immune to piercing...then what buddy?  Just ignore being able to buy arrows that will do autoattack damage? No, not when those auto attacks are sometimes for halfway decent damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God...if you are going to just post argumentative replies for your fellow rangers or accuse them of something...go do it elsewhere.  The attitude isnt appreciated.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Poison price can and will very on every server.  But all rangers should be able to find a nice Alchy to become a consistent custom of and get good deals from.  I know I have.</P> <P>As for summoned arrows and raid mobs Ail is correct.  There is no need to spend lots of money on high end arrows.  I am in a raid guild and raid alot so I know what I'm talking about here.  I carry two quivers as anyone can.  One is filled with summoned arrows a.k.a. piercers and the other with iron hunting arrows a.k.a. slashers.  Those hunting arrows cost about 12s a stack by the lighthouse in Antonica.  If a raid mob is pierce immune all you have to do is switch quivers and bammm all your CA's hit it.  Sure the auto attack damage from a T2 slashing arrow sucks but who cares.  Auto bow attack accounts for less then 5% of your DPS.</P> <P>Ail you did miss a couple factor in your hate comparison.  Number one is distance to the mob.  If a ranger is moving in and out using melee ca's along with bow ca's he will generate more hate.  Proximity to the mob makes a big difference in hate generation.  Try starting stream up at minimum distance vs maximum distance and you'll be amazed at how much faster you pull aggro.  Next one I'm not positive on but seems to be the case.  The fact that wizards to spaced out huge nukes vs steady damage of a scout causes them more aggro also.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Zholain]

<span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Crychtonn wrote: </font><p><font size="2">If a raid mob is pierce immune all you have to do is switch quivers and bammm all your CA's hit it.  Sure the auto attack damage from a T2 slashing arrow sucks but who cares.  Auto bow attack accounts for less then 5% of your DPS.</font></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Actually, that is not entirely accurate.  Your CA's will hit regardless of arrow type or tier.  As of LU13, our archery CA's no longer inflict piercing or slashing damage.  They inflict 'melee' damage.  The only time you should be seeing immunities with archery attacks is in the case of things like Precise Shot which inflicts heat damage.  I have yet to find an encounter in which a mob was immune to my archery CA's.  Highly resistant maybe, primarily due to level difference, but not immune.</font></span><div></div>

[Fennir]

You're both right. "Melee damage" means the weapon will do the damage assigned to it by either the weapon in your primary hand (for melee arts) or by the ammo in your quiver (for ranged arts). So if you put piercing arrows in your quiver, you will do piercing damage with your 'melee damage' CAs and will not hit, for example, Darathar (who is pierce immune).  If you put slashing arrows in your quiver, you will hit Darathar. <div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Isn't that what I said Tobias ?  Well that's what I was trying to say at least.  And yes you bow CA's do do the damage type of the arrow you have in your quiver.  Sometimes people miss this do to seeing lots of proc damage still going off.  If a mob is pierce immune and you have pierce arrows in your quiver your CA will not hit for any damage.  You can still proc all your poison's and equipment though.  On new raid mobs it's very important to watch your damage and make sure your actual CA is hitting and not just your proc's.</P> <P>As I said I find it easist to carry two quivers.  One in the ammo slot and one as a bag.  Each with a different arrow type.  When you come across a pierce immune mob all you have to do is swap the two quivers which takes very little time.</P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

<P>/curls up in the corner of the Ranger forum for a nap</P> <P>Wake me when it's over  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Fennir]

<span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<p>Isn't that what I said Tobias ?  Well that's what I was trying to say at least.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes.  Which is why I didn't understand why she was correcting you. Was just attempting to clarify.</span><div></div>

[Cersiana]

<DIV>Personally where someone thinks rangers can out dps wizzards ALWAYS... thats stupid IMHO.. I know a wizzy in my guild who can out dps me always.. mages also have the ability to lands hits on higher mobs than melee... Normally anything more than 5 lvls above the melee... well it makes for hard hitting.. as for mages they seem to go with the scale better.. YES we can out dps them . YES we do get stuns (not as effective)..... YES we have snares ( i prefer roots cause then i dont have to run around like a chicken with my head cut off)  YES mage roots are pretty weak atm (i'd know i have a coer i play {lvl 38} and a friends wizzy {52}) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... But you know what... You CAN NOT make everyone happy.. people are gonna complain.. nerfs are gonna come... buffs are gonna come.. SOE can only do so much, they are a company of regular people just like every other company in this world and INSTEAD of yelling for each other to be nerfed or talking about how ONE ranger out dps's most mages she /he comes across. We sould worry with our own classes... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i know thats not gonna happen. But when a class gets over powered in such ways (rangers duoing epics cause of over powered stun poisons) SOE will take care of that. So lets not talk about how over powered anyone one is... Cause if someone is truly over powered. SOE will see this and fix it asap. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets be nice .. dont make [Removed for Content] of yourselves and just enjoy .. Its just a game .... And i mean no disrespect to anyone. dont take it that way ^_^</DIV>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Forgive me.  I was at work, and was in a hurry to finish something else and rushed through the post.  The way you explained it may not have been completely clear to newer rangers.  I failed in the same manner, however. Jay....I'm about to revert again.  This is rediculous.  I can't believe what I've seen on these boards today. </font><div></div>

[Dasanhgul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><BR><BR>Jay....I'm about to revert again.  This is rediculous.  I can't believe what I've seen on these boards today.<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm about to do the same... Ranger forums have been a wonderfull place so far, and it seems the peace and quiet has ended and the flame wars, finger pointing and "grass is greener" syndrome has strike our home.</P> <P>Going into passive reader mode.... </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

Looking on the slightly positive side though - I didn't know about the melee damage notation so at  least one of us learnt something from this thread. :smileywink:

[Tevilspek]

<P>Once upon a time, a large group of Wizards stormed through the fields of Norrath, pitchforks in hand, chanting "Nerf the Warlocks! Nerf the Warlocks!" over and over.<BR>They moved from town to town, chanting and shouting "Nerf! Warlocks!", not giving up on their tirade.<BR>Then one day, a fellow Wizard came to them and said "Hey guys, they've nerfed Warlocks!"<BR>The crowd rejoiced.<BR>And all was peaceful.<BR>Until the Wizards again grew complacent. Then one day, a figurehead turned to the crowd and shouted "Nerf... the Scouts! Nerf the Scouts!"<BR>And the chant was raised, and the campaign began.<BR><BR>What a crock. How about instead of calling for nerfs, you petition SoE to let you pay lots of gold for your DPS too?</P>

[Sollum]

<P>Ooops! I've also replied on their board before reading through all this. I was fuming with him and couldn't resist this angry outburst. Probably not constuctive for our mutal relationship, so appologies  fellow rangers and appologies to all the nice wizards too :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>Grimdayl wrote:<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for  dps group slots?  It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results.  The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard.  We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status.  Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us.  Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Comparing wizard and scout:</DIV> <DIV>   - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off)</DIV> <DIV>   - scout can tank </DIV> <DIV>   - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as wiz root spells</DIV> <DIV>   - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   - scout has anti-aggro attacks</DIV></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights</DIV> <DIV>   - has same utilities like invis and evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edited out since off-point]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-23-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:01 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-23-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> <P><BR> </P> <DIV>Yeah. If you want all those skills listed above, then be a ranger, if not, then quit yer whining!</DIV>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>masseman wrote:</P> <P>If the intentions are not to troll, why go the wizards forum and try to explain to us that it is ok that wizards have poor DPS on raids because you have to paz for poison to achieve yours ? :smileyhappy:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i think what you may have overlooked is that the OP of that thread in the wizard forum just pointed out general things he has seen when he compered himself to scouts. he didn't mention raid in any way. he did mention what a ranger was able to solo though.</P> <P>so it seems some posts may be claiming there is nothing wrong with wizards; that's because they responded to the OP and his claims. the other thing is, some rangers (or even wizards) pointed out some background info on our class which has to be taken into account, and also corrected some things which the OP looked as more then it really is in the norm (tanking ability for example).<BR>another thing why we may be jumpy is a certain post which was on the wiz forum where the title already was close to 'nerf rangers'...</P> <P><BR>and yes, we have to pay for poison. sorry about that, but it's like that, and the money spent can't be used for CA/gear upgrades.</P> <P>anyway, the whole 'class xy is better' thing isn't good. in general there should be fun, and you should have fun with the playstyle of your class and not look at what others can do, because there are too many factors which can be overlooked.</P> <P>our playstyle is based on position and stealth and we need poison to up our dps. if someone wants the dps plus the armor and doesn't mind the requirements, he should not play a wizard, but a ranger or assassin. if someone doesn't like all the stealthing, positioning, poison buying, and doesn't care if he wears cloth, then the wiz is the way to go for DD, warlock for AoE. it should be a matter of what you want PLUS what restrictions you can live with, not pure dps.</P> <P>it may be that some more group buffs which can influence the dps of mages may be good. or that mages can up their damage with a spell component. donno. and i do feel your pain of heat/cold resistant mobs. played a wiz in EQ1 and have seen that situation as well...</P> <P>--------------------------<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target=_self>Ryilan Nightbreeze </A><BR>--------------------------<BR></P>

[The_Wind]

Another thing most people don't take into account is that a wizards power AND damage comes from one single stat, whereas rangers have to up two different stats.  Granted alot of items have both stats were after, but trust me when I say its not easy to get them, or they're not worth it.   On top of it, we pay for poisons, we use arrows, and yes, we take advantage of our items and their ability to proc.  On a side note, as far as the guy sayin scouts can tank.  Last time i checked, rangers don't tank all that well and still maintain DPS.  Hell, as a ranger, i sacrificed mitigation for stats, being that i wanted more damage.  Brigands can offtank if needed, but they were designed to do that.  I don't see many assassins goin out and tanking, or bards.  Can we take heroic mobs?  Yes, we can.  Can coercers? or Wizards?  Yes, i've seen them do it.  They can whine about what a person can/can't do all they want, but most times its NOT about class balance its about the players ability to actually PLAY.  And like we said on these forums when that guy came by callin for a nerf on rangers because assassins weren't up to snuff, we said, and we'll say it again, If you think your class is gimped, then ask them to FIX it, not BREAK another class to make you better.  <div></div>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>If you think your class is gimped, then ask them to FIX it, not BREAK another class to make you better.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm isnt't that what all the Wizards in that thread are doing ? - didn't see anyone asking for a ranger nerf <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. </span><div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><BR>Jay....I'm about to revert again.  This is rediculous.  I can't believe what I've seen on these boards today.<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It's disappointing, I'll agree with you there. I don't understand the need for so much sound and fury over one silly wizard post. They have problems! Their class needs help! We are RANGERS, hello, remember the last 6-8 months?? We had problems, we needed help too, and we were lucky enought to get it eventually. If anything, they should get sympathy from us, not condemnation and flaming. I sincerely tried to confine my post in that thread to correcting some of the assumptions that were getting made about our class. I probably didn't do as good as job as I should have. Those of you going out there and spewing hate-filled crap at wizards and other rangers are basically just making yourselves (and by extension, the rest of us) look really bad, and you're not bringing anything beneficial into the situation. I'm not into that. I don't like when a few people's carelessness and venom spoil something that many of us have worked to build and preserve. The fact that you've got people like Zho wondering if she should even read our forum should be a big clue that we've gone astray. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zho, you do what you have to, same as always. I guess if anything, I'd just say that this is a single situation that got blown WAY out of proportion, and will pass in the next few days. The fact that we still have threads around here like the Ranger Awards thing and the two threads about how helpful our board is s/b evidence that this forum isn't headed for a one-way trip into the toilet. But I'll agree that things are definitely more volatile here than they have been. I can live with that, and I hope you can too. If you leave, this place will be that much worse off for your absence. </DIV>

[The_Wind]

My post was based off my own views, not anything I read.  Lord knows I have little attention span as it is and coming to the ranger forums is one of the few i visit in a day.  Wizards have, since EQ1 complained when someones DPS outdid theirs.  It just nets my ire every time, because its just a big whinefest.  Eventually you get someone who says, "They have this and this and this and this that lets them be better than us, nerf them."  I'm just tired of always having to have this argument.  If the wizards are sayin, "Fix us!" instead of, "Rangers are overpowered!" then congratulations, you've gained my respect.  But are the wizards really broken?  Would they much rather be 100% equal to rangers in everything?  The good and the bad?  What happened to class diversity.  Each class is supposed to be unique in its own aspects.  We've had SOOOOO many dicussions in this forum about junk like this, are we over powered, are we underpowered.  Like i said, it nets my ire so easily because people can't be happy until either they become godlike, or someone else gets put lower than them.  I'm happy being a ranger.  Being one before LU13 makes me more thankful now than most could imagine.  It makes me really angry when people call for nerfs.  I don't do it.  I didn't do it before LU13, and we were BROKEN then.  We couldn't get groups unless they just absolutely needed fillers.  Thats why i'm thankful, and thats why i'm angry.  If wizards need fixing, then by all means, you're justified.  I don't play one, i haven't even tried.  But I don't see why you need to bring us into it.  We are rangers, not wizards.  I don't expect to be equal to a ranger, i'm a completely different class.  Jay was right before, when he said that looking at parsers only causes conflict like this.  Too many random variables, and all it does is bring out the green eyed monster.  I have never parsed, and never will feel like it.  I am a ranger, 100%, and will take what i get, when i get it.  If my place changes, i'll adapt, and if i can't adapt thats when i'll question.  So if I caused people to quesiton coming on here, then I do apologize, as a man, and as a player.  <div></div>

[Deml]

<DIV>I think the best thing we can do is ignore the wizard forums.  Grimdayl really just seems like he wants to b&tch and whine.  I've read through most of that thread and even a lot of other wizards are disagreeing with him.  Basically, you have a handful of wizards over there throwing a fit because some scout (it looks to be an assassin actually but they say all scouts) out dps'd them. Just let them go.  Most of the wizard forums seem to agree with most of us here.  Wizards have issues that need to be addressed but they are not related to scouts in any way, whatsoever.  I hope the wizards get the fixes they need, like smaller mana costs for a lot of their spells, less heat resistant mobs, or more of an equal spells in their spells between heat and cold.  I can sympathize with them (anyone who played a mage that raided in plane of fire in eq1 can sympathize with having 1/2 of your skills be useless).  I had some 2 page word document full of replies to their post I'm about to delete rather than post over there, it's just not worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The people that are throwing a fit over on the wizard boards about scouts doing so much more damage on raid mobs really seem to be forgetting all of the melee debuffs that are thrown on raid mobs.  When you drop a mobs defense vs piercing and slashing by 500 or more, then naturally a scout who only uses pierce/slash weapons will do more damage.  Just like when we, as rangers, drop Forester's Noose on mobs to debuff their fire resists, do wizards fire nukes start hitting for more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I consistantly out damage wizards on raids like they say on their thread?  Yes I can, but EVERY time I do, I pull agro from the MT as well and end up dying because of it.</DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff33>Just let them go.</FONT></STRONG>  Most of the wizard forums seem to agree with most of us here.  Wizards have issues that need to be addressed but they are not related to scouts in any way, whatsoever.  I hope the wizards get the fixes they need, like smaller mana costs for a lot of their spells, less heat resistant mobs, or more of an equal spells in their spells between heat and cold.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>QFE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree Demlar </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you</DIV>

[Gailstryd]

<P>Everybody just chill and be good.  Rangers keep to yourself that's what we do best minus the perver..... hmmm silly things some of you other Rangers do with tree's or bears /shudder <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. DON'T LIE DEMLAR YOU CAN'T HIDE THE TRUTH <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> SMOKEY THE BEAR KNOWS!  Wizards need a boost and to be honest I think they do need to have a bit of an edge to there dps over ours since that IS why they can't take a hit.  Stop the smear campaigns on both sides and instead lets help each other out.  Rangers aren't hurting so much right now so let's do the dps neighborly thing and give the wizards and other mage classes that need it our support in getting fixed.  Bare minimum stick to your own boards and constructively seek atonement for your classes kinks and knots. And last but not least watch the below it should make you a lot less likely to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the next time you post.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffdb6f><A href="http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=527" target=_blank>http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=527</A> </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffdb6f></FONT> </P> <DIV>And if you still want to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] after watching that then just so you know this is what happens to [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffdb6f><A href="http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=851" target=_blank>http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=851</A> </FONT></DIV>

[Zaviur]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sollum wrote:<p>Ooops! I've also replied on their board before reading through all this. I was fuming with him and couldn't resist this angry outburst. Probably not constuctive for our mutal relationship, so appologies  fellow rangers and appologies to all the nice wizards too :smileywink:</p> <p>Grimdayl wrote:</p> <div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for  dps group slots?  It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results.  The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</div> <div>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard.  We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status.  Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here?   </div> <div> </div> <div>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us.  Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. </div> <div> </div> <div> Comparing wizard and scout:</div> <div>   - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off)</div> <div>   - scout can tank </div> <div>   - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as wiz root spells</div> <div>   - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists</div> <div> <div>   - scout has anti-aggro attacks</div></div> <div>   - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights</div> <div>   - has same utilities like invis and evac</div> <div> </div> <div>[edited out since off-point]</div> <div> </div> <div>Thoughts? </div> <div> </div> <div> This is too Funny first of all Wizzards need a LOT less gear to do the same DPS as a ranger. Poisons cost money to keep in supply what happens if we run we are reduced to doing fighter damage.  Do Wizards have this problem? Scouts have better Power management?  We have one skill that doesn't require us to use power all other skills are based on doing constant damage not big hits.  Compare us to our Assassin counterparts and they burn power like just worse than a wizard.  There are a lot of stuff to fix in this game and comparing apples to oranges isn't a way to get things fix. Now someone hand me a T6 bow so I can go PvP a Wizard.  Oh wait they haven't put them in the game.... </div> <div> </div> <div> <div> </div></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">11-23-2005</font></span> <span class="time_text">01:01 PM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">11-23-2005</font></span> <span class="time_text">04:48 PM</span> </p><hr> <div>Yeah. If you want all those skills listed above, then be a ranger, if not, then quit yer whining!</div> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Kai'va Arros]

<blockquote><hr>Icehunter612 wrote:<DIV>I was reading the wizard forums cuz my alt is a lvl 38 wizard, and found this post right here.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=18505" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=18505</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read the entire thing. Wizzys are about to start spaming feedback board becuz they are [Removed for Content] off. Not like anybody DIDN'T see this coming but prepare yourselves.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Thats annoying. Screwing another class because you feel they are better than you does nothing productive for the game. Its irritating and does nothing but foster hate and animosity. I hate whiners.

[The_Wind]

I'm through with them.  All of them.  I'm a ranger.  I am above this.  I will take what is dealt, and I will make the best of it.  I will overcome such petty desires.  I am a Ranger, and I will live simply as such.  We did it once before, when wizards were unbeatable, we continued to strive hoping for greatness.  We went from groups despising us, to groups rejoicing at our arrival.  If we get nerfed, we will take it in stride, make the most of it, and still show them we are greater.  Its what we do, survive.  The only difference is we, as Rangers, will continue to stick together.  Let the petty squable over who should be greater.  We have better things to do than pity the weak minded and jealous.  Let them drown in their own sorrows.  Some of the masses cannot be saved, its not evil, its just fact.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Wind, that was as well said as I could ever have dreamt of saying it. </font><div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

One fairly substantial factor i didn't see mentioned about ranger raid dps is this:  In a proper setup, a good deal of the ranger's dps can come <i>from</i> the wizard in the group.  Wiz, warlock, conjuror, troub, and i believe the other mages can all put up melee procs on the ranger, which greatly increases our dps.  The parser says the ranger is dropping 1200 dps, but 400 of that is from the rest of the group using the ranger as a vehicle for proc delivery. Rangers buff nothing, and can debuff only a little (heat from our snarre, and poison debuffs).  In a raid, the ranger is really the outlet for the str and int buffs, and all those procs. (yes, your group int buffs increase our damage from all procs)  For my money, the important factor isn't who's first on the parse list, but whether or not the mob is lying flat on his back when we are done. <div></div>

[The_Wind]

Jay has said many times, and in this i whole heartedly agree with, parse lists are pointless.  The ONLY thing they do is cause strife between classes/players.  And as I stated before, I'm through with that, all of it.<div></div>

[King Leor]

<P>I personally LOVE when people are parsing raids. For one. people who are normally  lazy with DPS will actually try cuz they dont want people to see they slacking off. So automatically everyone tries harder and mobs die sooooooo much faster.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>For my money, the important factor isn't who's first on the parse list, but whether or not the mob is lying flat on his back when we are done.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>QFE, totally agree here, and with Wind's post. That's why it's weird to me that after a raid people will go all-out seeking to claim their share of the glory with a bunch of meaningless numbers. It's a GAME!<BR>

[Gailstryd]

<DIV>I like parsers and being able to see where I fall on the dps roster for a raid, but not because I'm trying to show anyone else up.  I like parsers mainly for a self analytical reasons.  I use them to go back over an encounter and see what was hitting, who, what, when, where, why you the typical stuff.  Maybe it's just cause I like to play my character to his fullest and I have a huge belief in no matter your gear or the numbers, the person behind the toon makes a big difference in the end result.  I get that feeling from EQ2, like I make my character what he is more so than what gear or loots I have, which is a huge part of why I like playing so much and why I love being a ranger.  I think the parser should really only have a purpose as a PERSONAL tool, not something to degrade, abuse, or blackmail another class.  I run one and I keep it to myself for the most part because I know the animosity it can generate.  Just don't get mad at me if I'm excited because I did a lot of dps on X mob, I like it so much because it is a personal affirmation that I am doing things right and living up to the silent bargain I make, anytime I accept an invite, to play my best.  In all, a parser is just another level of detail I like added to the game and shouldn't be something people use to stick it to the other guy.  It is a tool for information, and information much like a gun, safe when in the proper hands, perilous in the wrong ones, and just not that good to leave lying around.  Peeps who use it properly can extract from it added levels of game detail, resourcefulness, and fun, while the various trolls and smear merchants that lurk in the dark crevices of the forums often take the information and mock it up as some kind of evidence with dillusions of grandeur at toppling someone else's class or play style.</DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gailstryder wrote:<BR> <DIV> Peeps who use it properly can extract from it added levels of game detail, resourcefulness, and fun, while the various trolls and smear merchants that lurk in the dark crevices of the forums often take the information and mock it up as some kind of evidence with dillusions of grandeur at toppling someone else's class or play style.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/agree</P> <P>I don't have a problem with parsers in general, but people's reliance on them and use of them as rock-solid defintions of class capabilities. There's just too many variables and taking one person's experience in one raid with one character doesn't constitute "X class can do Y in Z situations" in my mind. But I agree, Rhanin, using the parser as a 'personal best' kind of assessment is probably the best way to use them. Once people start getting competitive and calling for nerfs, you're putting WAY too much faith in that 3rd-party utility. </P>

[Sollum]

I use the parser to help me decide which Adpet III I'm gonna upgrade next. Also it's nice to see just how hard I'm hitting too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dasanhgul]

<P>Please let this post just</P> <P><IMG src="http://sch57.msk.ru/~d03belozerov/rip.jpg"></P> <P> </P>

[Cron]

I'm glad to see those of you astray come back to the fold.  Adapt, Overcome, and just party on... <div></div>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT size=2>Crychtonn wrote:<BR></FONT> <P><FONT size=2>If a raid mob is pierce immune all you have to do is switch quivers and bammm all your CA's hit it.  Sure the auto attack damage from a T2 slashing arrow sucks but who cares.  Auto bow attack accounts for less then 5% of your DPS.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>Actually, that is not entirely accurate.  Your CA's will hit regardless of arrow type or tier.  As of LU13, our archery CA's no longer inflict piercing or slashing damage.  They inflict 'melee' damage.  The only time you should be seeing immunities with archery attacks is in the case of things like Precise Shot which inflicts heat damage.  I have yet to find an encounter in which a mob was immune to my archery CA's.  Highly resistant maybe, primarily due to level difference, but not immune.</FONT><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Darathar is immune to CAs if you use piercing arrows ( because he is immune to pierce).</P> <P>I didn't carry slash arrows so had to go melee using slash weapons to damage him...<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>nevermind Aildiin edited and corrected his post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Zholain]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Ail wrote:</font><font size="2"></font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Zholain wrote:<span></span></font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Crychtonn wrote: </font><p><font size="2">If a raid mob is pierce immune all you have to do is switch quivers and bammm all your CA's hit it.  Sure the auto attack damage from a T2 slashing arrow sucks but who cares.  Auto bow attack accounts for less then 5% of your DPS.</font></p><font size="2"> </font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Actually, that is not entirely accurate.  Your CA's will hit regardless of arrow type or tier.  As of LU13, our archery CA's no longer inflict piercing or slashing damage.  They inflict 'melee' damage.  The only time you should be seeing immunities with archery attacks is in the case of things like Precise Shot which inflicts heat damage.  I have yet to find an encounter in which a mob was immune to my archery CA's.  Highly resistant maybe, primarily due to level difference, but not immune. </font><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">Darathar is immune to CAs if you use piercing arrows ( because he is immune to pierce).</font></p><p><font size="2">I didn't carry slash arrows so had to go melee using slash weapons to damage him...</font></p><p><font size="2">Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">12-07-2005</span><span class="time_text">10:26 AM</span></font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">I thought we had already established this...and that my post had already been rectified.Yes, Darathar goes down very nicely with a wyrmsteel shortblade, a crescent axe, and fulginate hunting arrows.  He is also highly vulnerable to poison. </font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[TheStormrider]

<P>Very simple thought here.</P> <P>What makes us think (Wizards or Rangers) we know the exact formulas, and exact 'optimal' damage output?  Wouldnt you think that SoE has the ability to factor in everything, and parse everything,  in all situations, at their fingertips, and adjust according to that?</P> <P>Last I checked I didnot have the ability to make my character any rase,  any skill level, and look at the mechanical code of the game,  and then test accordingly, against equal competition.</P> <P>While I do agree that some things get overlooked,  ultimately, I think that the developers, although short sighted,  do have the ability to check easily quantifiable things, such as damage.  <BR><BR>Symantics can be argued for days,  agree to dissagree.  Thats what I do.</P> <P><BR>I think the thing wizards should really realize is that if they keep screaming MORE DPS, they will get it.  They will however,  lose something else.  So ask yourself are you saying 'MORE DPS' or 'LESS ROOTS' or 'ILESS MPORTANT SKILL HERE'.  </P> <P>We got more dps,  and lost the ability to do most of it on heroics or above.  Now,  if your looking for equality,  your roots would only last 2 seconds,  you would lose group buffs (and debuffs as other dps), but gain a bit more DPS and a bit of armour. <BR><BR>But really,  if thats what you want,  why dont you play a ranger?  We would love to have you! <BR><BR>Tippo</P> <P>Guildless 60 Ranger/60 Woodworker </P> <P>Grobb</P>

[Aenashi]

<DIV>anyone got a link for a chat parsar?  </DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Cat you should switch to the iron hunting arrows from the lighthouse in Antonica.  They are dirt cheap and give the same damage on your CA's as those fulginate hunting arrows.  The only damage you loose out on is your autobow which makes up only 1-2% of your DPS.</P> <P>This will save you tons of cash.  They are also great to load up and use when you need to rebuild your summoned arrow stockpile.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Teksun]

Um... we've been doing Darathar quite a bit lately. All I been using is summoned arrows, and I've been doing quite a bit of damage... <div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Actually, I also have a stash of the el cheapo's that I use for normal raid nights.  But for special events like Darathar, I tend to use the better quality stuff....just in case for some inexplicable reason I have to revert to auto-bow for any length of time (like Meeting of the Minds to pull back out of AE range of the eye to heal for a bit).  It's just a way to make sure I've got all my bases covered. Something to ponder though...sort of on topic..wonder why the types of arrows we carry determine what kind of damage our melee arts (Longshank, Dire Blade, Fatal Reminder, etc) inflict.  Guess that must have been the easiest way to code it....or are they effected by something else?  I've never seen the ones that specify 'melee' not hitting, but if they are effected by arrow type we wouldn't because those would have already been swapped out.  It's not an issue, but thinking about all this just brought the melee CA's to mind and it just seemed odd. </font><div></div>

[Zholain]

<span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Teksun wrote: Um... we've been doing Darathar quite a bit lately. All I been using is summoned arrows, and I've been doing quite a bit of damage... </font> <div></div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">If it's like everthing else in that encounter....it's bugged   <span>:womanwink:</span></font></span><div></div>

[Aenashi]

<DIV>So, I use primarly summoned arrows for combat.  Never really messed with anything else.  There is a huge difference between the arrows?  You got a chart of the arrows and dmg?</DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<P>The only difference in damage is from your auto bow attacks.  Arrows from different tiers have zero effect on your bow CA damage.  Only thing they add to your CA's is the type of damage caused by it i.e. summoned arrows do pierce damage, hunting arrows do slash damage, and rounded do crushing damage.</P> <P>I don't know of any chart showing the different damage ranges for auto bow damage and arrows of different tiers.  There is a significant difference in damage T2 doing maybe 100 damage and T6 doing 900.  But since 98% of our damage comes from CA's not auto bow I don't worry about that to much.</P> <P>To me it's more important to carry two different types of arrows (pierce, slash) then worry about what tier it is.  As long as I have two types I can easily swap them out and know I can do consistent damage on a mob.</P> <P> </P>

[Zaviur]

I don't know why they don't just add potions to the game that add a temp Focus buff that increases damage.  Make them cost about 12 to 17 gold for 7 charges and cut the whine out.  Nuff said next problem what to make for dinner.

[The_Wind]

Or better yet, give them a self only buff that takes 2 concentration that allows for a 10% chance for a critical spell damage hit, which doubles the damage landed.  That way, their "uber" dps is as random as ours is.<div></div>

[Aenashi]

<DIV>interesting.  Arrows do slashing.  I can see some crushing but not slashing.  Slashing is very important though cause i noticed somethings are immune to piercing weapons but not slashing.  </DIV> <DIV><BR>all summoned arrows are piercing right?</DIV>

[Teksun]

Yes, all summoned are piercing, you have to buy/make the 'hunting' (slashing) arrows <div></div>