Nerf on Thorny Trap Now What?

[hawk987]

<font size="5"><font size="4">Well I guess they nerfed the trap.  I know that in a way it was an unfair advantage being that the ranger was the only class able to root an epic, but this was the great thing about the trap.  The trap now is basically useless it has no real use.  Other classes get immune to AOEs and great thing like that and now what did i spend my pearl on?  A trap that breaks as soon as the mob takes a single point of damage.    You can say that it help with groups but really I barely will ever use it now.   Other classes use their lvl 52 spell in raids not me any more. SOE please either make this trap be able to be used against epics or make it so the root sticks through damage.  No other root in the game breaks as easy as our trap and making it so our trap is useless in raids makes the trap a dead spell that I wont use , but maybe once a week. Miller 60 Ranger Toxx Dominion </font></font><div></div>

[Fennir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>USELESS? LOL ok i guess if all you do is raid then you might think this spell is useless for the rest of us who don't just raid it's definitely not useless.  please don't pretend to speak for anyone but youself.  i think we all saw this 'nerf' coming, and if you didn't, you were kidding yourself. <div></div><p>also... there are adds in raid zones that are still rootable...  and if i was only being invited to raids because of my trap i would probably join a different guild<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[JaggNomr]

<P>I will speak for myself....</P> <P> </P> <P>.... I am useless. </P> <P> </P> <P>that is all.</P>

[King Leor]

<DIV>This does really suck...alot I might add. For me anyways. I dont solo at all anymore and pretty much only raid and or do instances with groups and I certtainly dont need the trap while doing instances. Not sure if the trap will work on the epics adds anymore. It used to work on boss and adds. so now it prolly wont work on either as the notes said "The root from Thorny Trap is no longer effective against epic encounters"...............Bummer. Oh well, back to DPS only lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</DIV>

[Halade]

<P>/shrug.  Like the OP said, I think we all saw this coming... Touch of the Beholder anyone?</P> <P>It was fun to use in (and trivialize) old world raids though, it could almost make up for a whole group in terms of crowd control... I didn't get to use it too many times... but glad I got a few kicks out of it.  </P>

[T0D]

<BR> <DIV>Yes i was very sad when i read the update notes this morning :smileyindifferent: And as myself being a raiding ranger i found the one shread of utility  i had taken away. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ohh and fennir if you tell someone not to pretend to speak for anyone but yourself, why use terms such as "for the rest of us" seems like your speaking for others then yourself.</DIV>

[Fennir]

I made a truthful statement, not a request to the devs to keep a game breaking effect on a spell.  Quite a difference. <div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Are we seriously going to start getting Chicken Little Syndrome everytime they change one of our skills? This is getting kind of disappointing. </P> <P>Did they take away my bow? No? Okay. Life goes on. </P>

[GrayStorm]

<DIV>Oh great, 2 out of 3 specialty spells nerfed into gayn3ss.</DIV> <DIV>Lemme guess, tomorrow when I log in Sniper Shot will be nerfed down to do only 500 dmg, and useless against epics.  Bahahahaha!  Dam U Sony!!!  =P               </DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GrayStorm wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh great, 2 out of 3 specialty spells nerfed into gayn3ss.</DIV> <DIV>    <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hahahahaha... lemme guess, Stream is "useless" too? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sad state of affairs here, the rangers of old were a far more persistant bunch. I guess the elevation of our class was bound to have these kind of side effects, where people run for the Kleenex whenever our class is even mentioned in the patch notes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know what? Take away all our ancient teachings skills completely, and we STILL have a huge arsenal of fantastic skills. I guess I count myself fortunate that I get to continue having fun with my toon while some folks sob themselves to sleep at night. LOL!!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Cron]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> GrayStorm wrote: <div></div> <div>Oh great, 2 out of 3 specialty spells nerfed into gayn3ss.</div> <div>     <hr> </div></blockquote> <div>Hahahahaha... lemme guess, Stream is "useless" too? </div> <div> </div> <div>Sad state of affairs here, the rangers of old were a far more persistant bunch. I guess the elevation of our class was bound to have these kind of side effects, where people run for the Kleenex whenever our class is even mentioned in the patch notes. </div> <div> </div> <div>You know what? Take away all our ancient teachings skills completely, and we STILL have a huge arsenal of fantastic skills. I guess I count myself fortunate that I get to continue having fun with my toon while some folks sob themselves to sleep at night. LOL!!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like some have forgot about the journey to get where they are.  Personally, I have one ancient teaching (Trap) and I am just now starting to remember to use it.  Like Kae said, as long as we have our bows, we will be just fine.  Harder?  Sure, but we are all about adversity.. right?</span><div></div>

[Alli]

<DIV>Thorny Trap is no where near useless for me. I dont know what the f~ your talking about. This change to rooting epics should have been expected, escpecially since SOE nerfed our kiting of epics some time ago through various changes to both mobs, and shooting on the run. Trap doesnt always break on dmg, it breaks everytime bow procs on it, but no proc shots or auto attack bow doesnt break it for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My major complaint is how a mob can leg shot me and it lasts full duration, but if I leg shot it breaks after next shot. THAT needs fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see letting the DOT land on epics at least though, kind of like dmg component of stun spells / abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[leafnin]

<P>I think people have a right to be upset about this.  It's not as game breaking as some like to make it out to be.  We weren't the only class that could root Epics.  The root was easily breakable and had a high recast so you couldn't chain cast it.  If we were the only ones who could root Epics I'd agree that this needed to be 'fixed', but we weren't.  Your right about one thing Jay42 this isn't the end of the world and most need to move on.  The problem I have is your patronizing of other Rangers just cause this doesn't effect you like it does others.  We aren't Guards, Temps, Warden, etc.  we don't need their drama.  Let the complaining Rangers get it out of their systems and move on it might be for the best.</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon</P> <P>60 Ranger</P> <P>Kithicor </P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leafnin wrote:<BR> <P>Your right about one thing Jay42 this isn't the end of the world and most need to move on.  The problem I have is your patronizing of other Rangers just cause this doesn't effect you like it does others.  We aren't Guards, Temps, Warden, etc.  we don't need their drama.  Let the complaining Rangers get it out of their systems and move on it might be for the best.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How does it not affect me? Because I have a different skill set? No, I play the same class as the rest of you. </P> <P>You're right, we don't need drama here, but I'm going to express my disappointment with people's reactions if I feel disappointed. That's all - and my disappointment is nothing more than one person's reaction. I hope you're right, that people get the complaining out of their systems and move on, I just hope it's not moving on to another issue to complain about. The community here has never been about whining, and I'd hate to see that become a regular part of our forum. </P>

[smoody]

<P>Personally I am disappointed in this change. While the change doesn't make the spell useless, it does take away an interesting and fun aspect of using the skill. Several days ago, a group of my friends finished the Desert Power heritage. We didn't have a chanter in the group, so I would place the trap and the tank would run the last mob of each group over the trap and allow the group to get reorganized before we killed it and had to fight the next group. The spell worked very well as long as everyone coordinated their efforts and didn't attack the mob while it was rooted. The whole encounter was very fun so I am disappointed to see the ability removed.</P> <P>Fredethel</P>

[lilmohi]

I was expecting it to be nerfed to not affect heroics as well, so the fact that it only doesn't work on epics, is quite alright with me.  Even if they took away the root component all together i'd still use it for the nifty amount of group damage it does.

[Crychtonn]

<P>While I don't like that the trap will no longer work on Epic's I can understand why it was changed.</P> <P>The issue I have is it appears they did more then just change this.  I've been using the Trap spell alot the last couple days and it's root is terrible compared to what it used to be.  The root from the Trap is breaking alot faster then it used to.  If it wasn't for the snare effect on mobs breaking the root I'd be close to just tossing this skill.</P> <P>Can Lockeye or one of the other Dev's please look into this.  This is still a great skill and fun to use.  But if it can't keep mobs rooted for more then a few seconds it's use will go away.</P> <P> </P>

[Saihung23]

Well...it was bound to happen.  And I dont mean the nerf...I mean my 2cp being thrown in....in reality...I dont think my opinion on this is even worth that. This is my approach to LU's, combat changes, and nerfs in general.   It is somewhat zen...Everything is constantly in a state of change...nothing ever remains the same...at some point the bad changes are going to be changed again...if you wait long enough things will even change back to what they were before.   Never get completely used to something that you cant go without it. BTW It would bug me greatly if I were a raid ranger....that said, I, me, Saihung, would get past this change and focus on the things working right for me.  You are only useless if you do nothing at all.  Even then...you are not completely useless..because you are then good for nothing.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Jay/Kaeros isnt trying to be condescending...it may read that way but Jay has the interests of Rangers as a whole when he replies to someone.  I feel the same way, however, I am also I hot tempered [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who cant express it as well as some people.  I mainly would like to see us discuss changes made and brainstorm further changes to tweak the original change...for better or worse. Good Luck All Peace Health and Happiness <div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lilmohi wrote:<BR>I was expecting it to be nerfed to not affect heroics as well, so the fact that it only doesn't work on epics, is quite alright with me.  Even if they took away the root component all together i'd still use it for the nifty amount of group damage it does. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Having it nerf'd to not effect heroics would by completely unfair.  All the other classes with roots and stuns have them work on heroic mobs.  Could you imagine the uproar from the caster classes if their roots and stuns got nerf'd to not work on heroic's.</P> <P>Scouts already have been stuck with a gimped stun for heroic's that no other class has.  Sorry but a 2 sec stun on a mob is useless.  The way it was before Cheap Shot had some use against heroic's now it serves no purpose.</P> <p>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[lilmohi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lilmohi wrote:<BR>I was expecting it to be nerfed to not affect heroics as well, so the fact that it only doesn't work on epics, is quite alright with me.  Even if they took away the root component all together i'd still use it for the nifty amount of group damage it does. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Having it nerf'd to not effect heroics would by completely unfair.  All the other classes with roots and stuns have them work on heroic mobs.  Could you imagine the uproar from the caster classes if their roots and stuns got nerf'd to not work on heroic's.</P> <P>Scouts already have been stuck with a gimped stun for heroic's that no other class has.  Sorry but a 2 sec stun on a mob is useless.  The way it was before Cheap Shot had some use against heroic's now it serves no purpose.</P> <P>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>unfair? Yes, Surprising? no.</P> <P>I actually like the change to cheap shot, since i can still lasts long enough for me to step back and fire off the double arrow fire CA.  The way it was before poisons were allways seeming to break the stun before i could get a hit off.<BR></P>

[Cron]

<span><blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div></div> <p>I think people have a right to be upset about this.  It's not as game breaking as some like to make it out to be.  <font color="#ffff00">We weren't the only class that could root Epics.  The root was easily breakable and had a high recast so you couldn't chain cast it.  If we were the only ones who could root Epics I'd agree that this needed to be 'fixed', but we weren't. </font> Your right about one thing Jay42 this isn't the end of the world and most need to move on.  The problem I have is your patronizing of other Rangers just cause this doesn't effect you like it does others.  We aren't Guards, Temps, Warden, etc.  we don't need their drama.  Let the complaining Rangers get it out of their systems and move on it might be for the best. </p><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure about all other classes, but I know the chanters saw a huge nerf in their stun, binds, and stifles of said epics and they took that swing before they swung at Rangers.  Besides, those classes still can't lay down fire like we can and that's what I'll focus on.  Death, distruction, and mayhem.</span><div></div>

[GrayStorm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hahahahaha... lemme guess, Stream is "useless" too? </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/whispers shhhhh! don't tell them it's still uber hehe.</P> <P>don't get your panties in a bunch Jay, you should know by now not to take me seriously.<BR></P>

[hawk987]

LOL. Well ill say this no im not useless in  a raid without my trustly old trap.  Was it awesome to hvae a small utility? Hell yes!  Root a named while we beat on the adds, or save a certain wipe. I still get in over my fair share of DPS and im not complaining. However back to my point: As a 52 special it does not live up to the other lvl 52 that other classes get now. Brigand-AOE immunity/Monk-Invincible to melee for 12 secs. The trap in my opinion needs to be changed in one of two ways. -Make is so it will root epics as long as we dont do damage!(I know keep dreaming) -OR Make it so if i root a mob thats not epic i can hit up on it a bit before it breaks.  I dont know 10 secs unbreakable/40 secs 40% chance to break. As of now i can root a heroic stare at it and make stupid faces at it for a min the have him run t me.  (and no i dont want to drop poisons or something just to stop trap from breaking) As for the root a group and pick off 1 at a time. Well ya that works but an awful minimal use for such a spell.(I was forced to spend a pearl on this back when i got it remember that.)  No im no crying simplying discussing a skill that in my opinion needs to be looked at and changed.  Is this not what the boards are about.  Ya I love my other skills too, but at the time this [Removed for Content] me off. P.S.  Dont come crying to me when they take away your bow......   you still have tons of awesome melee arts.... Miller 60 Ranger Toxx Dominion <div></div>

[King Leor]

<P>I agree with Hawk987 100%. The spell just does not live up to it's so called "specialness" as we are limited sooo soo much now with it. Like ya we can still have our 1000 DPS while killing a raid mob but it was fun to use it on epics, but the fact that it's only use is to now trap a group and pick em off one by one. Thats kinda lame and i can have any group dead befor it hits trap if I use natural selection and storm of arrows right after anywyas. One funny thing though that both myself and fellow ranger did, was we decided to test it on a group of epics in the LT raid zone. So we laid are traps in hope it works, low and behold though they hit the trap. barreled right through and beat the 2 of us down. Was very sad about that..lol.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[Fennir]

At 52, conjurers not only get a special spell they can't use in combat, they get a spell that only benefits other people. And they have to pay for it! <div></div>

[King Leor]

<P>Thats not really the point of this thread and Call of Hero is an awesome spell and can save alot of time and can benefit an entire raid and or group. Thats like saying all priest spells are useless becasue they dont help them selves just the tank their trying to keep alive.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[xandez]

Why should our root be able to hold epics? Well, maybe if this was INTENDED, but it was not... Thats why it got _nerfed_ Its not useless btw, learn to use it (if you REALLY think its useless) and im sure you'll be happy. ++Xan <div></div>

[Blorgida]

As it was only a matter of time before they removed the ability to trap epics with Thorny Trap, we never really cared to develop a strategy using it on epics. I would've loved to still be able to do it, but life goes on. It was too good to be true I guess.

[Zholain]

<font size="2">I am not going to comment on the changes to Thorny Trap, itself.  I have my own opinion about that, and I understand both points of view. What I will comment on is our acceptance of nerfs in general.  While I agree that there may be certain things that we know/knew are/were overpowered and should just suck it up when those items are balanced, we can't just sit back and allow SOE to bump us down a notch without expressing our frustrations (in a constructive way, of course).  We are finally where we should be in regards of what we bring to the table, whether that be raiding, grouping, or solo.  I certainly don't want to see that go away. I continue to see wizards and warlocks making posts in any board they want about how rangers are always out-damaging them, and to either bring wizards up or take rangers down.  Now we all know that if a wizard/warlock always falls behind a ranger in damage output, then most likely s/he sucks at playing his/her class, or s/he is just spouting out a bunch of crap because they're ticked off that a ranger can <i><b>ever</b></i> out-damage them.  But that doesn't change the fact that these types of people exist, and other people sometimes listen to them. Do you want to blindly accept any change that the devs throw our way?  Will we just suck it up if Sniper Shot is changed to to 3000 damage but is still on a 15 minute timer?  What about if Longshank only granted a % chance to stealth the ranger?  Or Evasion only granted a % chance to decrease threat level?  I know these are hypothetical, and I <i><b>don't</b></i> have the Chicken Little syndrome.  But we can not be so complacent that we just accept any changes the devs make without expressing our desires otherwise.  No we don't control the game, but we have proven in the past that if we reasonably present our concerns to development, we will be heard. <i><b>Right now</b></i>, we are where we should be.  Not after another nerf, not after some ignorant wizard insists that rangers have so much utility that we set the game out of balance since we can out-damage them too. I beg of other rangers not to be so harsh when one of our brothers/sisters expresses displeasure in changes made to our subcless.  Likewise, I would strongly recommend those rangers who do express dissatisfaction to do so in a reasonable and constructiv manner. </font><div></div>

[A]

We're a still a notch above where we should be right now ( I don't think soloing lvl 60 heroic mobs even with a decent chance of dying is where we are supposed to be.) so please stop complaining each time a minor change affects us....

[Fennir]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>King Leoric wrote:<div></div> <p>Thats not really the point of this thread and Call of Hero is an awesome spell and can save alot of time and can benefit an entire raid and or group. Thats like saying all priest spells are useless becasue they dont help them selves just the tank their trying to keep alive.</p> <hr></blockquote>It was made the point of this thread when someone compared our level 52 special spell to other class's level 52 special spells, and you agreed with them.  Don't defend a crappy argument please. And Zholain, there are plenty of things that have been worth complaining about throughout the past year, especially before the combat revamp. This is not one of them.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[Te]

You can either scream and ramble or talk like a sensible person, the former I wont do anything but disagree with and the later ill listen to. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, we shouldnt let other people of other classess whine their way to take us out of our place in the game.</DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><BR>I beg of other rangers not to be so harsh when one of our brothers/sisters expresses displeasure in changes made to our subcless.  Likewise, I would strongly recommend those rangers who do express dissatisfaction to do so in a reasonable and constructiv manner.<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think I've just been reprimanded. And rightfully so. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Sorry, guys. I didn't mean to sound condescending or anything. I just get irate when something changes and people start flipping out like it's the end of the world. Obviously we're going to get frustrated when they limit a skill of ours, and yes, the point of these boards is to discuss issues like those. I just hope we can do so with a better attitude and some more perspective in the future. </P> <P>Again, sorry for my part in agitating this situation. Take care. </P>

[Halade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ail wrote:<BR>We're a still a notch above where we should be right now ( I don't think soloing lvl 60 heroic mobs even with a decent chance of dying is where we are supposed to be.) so please stop complaining each time a minor change affects us.... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I do recall a Dev post (after combat update) which acknowledged that some classes, with appropriate gear and CA's, would still be able to solo heroics if the player was skilled enough in using their class.  If we were taking heroic mobs without fear of dying, i would totally agree that we were above where we should be.  That does not seem to be the norm though, we do have a significant chance of dying when taking on heroics.  It is true that if the random numbers line up right, i can kill even con heroics (using the right combo of CA's) with little difficulty (mostly legendary gear), but it doesn't happen all that frequently... nor is it really productive in terms of loot or XP.  Just my 2cp. </DIV>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cronon wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leafnin wrote:<BR> <P>I think people have a right to be upset about this.  It's not as game breaking as some like to make it out to be.  <FONT color=#ffff00>We weren't the only class that could root Epics.  The root was easily breakable and had a high recast so you couldn't chain cast it.  If we were the only ones who could root Epics I'd agree that this needed to be 'fixed', but we weren't. </FONT> Your right about one thing Jay42 this isn't the end of the world and most need to move on.  The problem I have is your patronizing of other Rangers just cause this doesn't effect you like it does others.  We aren't Guards, Temps, Warden, etc.  we don't need their drama.  Let the complaining Rangers get it out of their systems and move on it might be for the best.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure about all other classes, but I know the chanters saw a huge nerf in their stun, binds, and stifles of said epics and they took that swing before they swung at Rangers.  Besides, those classes still can't lay down fire like we can and that's what I'll focus on.  Death, distruction, and mayhem.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>go take a look at the coercer forum all negativety! since we had that nerf (i have a 57 coercer too, cry) So yes rangers are not useless wihtout a working root! omg they do 10 k damage in a few hits while a coercer does the saem 10 k in a lotta casts or need to take damage for it to happen!</P> <P>Anyways i am really happy with my ranger!</P>