Please tell me this isn't the norm.

[Bromious]

<DIV>I want to start by saying I don't bring this kind of thing up to start flames etc. I'll set it up a bit by letting you know what led me to post this. A group of us went  to do the Roost the other night, 5 guildies and one other Ranger from another guild. Everything was fine and everything went well, we cleared in about 40 mins. During the clearing I would check the other Rangers buffs (lvl 53 btw). I love that we get to see what other folks have up by targetting them.  When I checked this Rangers buffs I was shocked. First off I know this guy was fairly well equiped, wielding prismatic etc, some t5 fabled etc.. So obviously not new to the game. He had no poisons up ever, none, zip, zero. Generally I'll ask another Ranger or Assassin what he's using for debuff poisons so we don't overlap, but didn't this time. He also had Blade Flurry up the whole time, yes Blade Flurry. Zero ring buffs etc. Now I know this was probably an isolated incident (I guess anyway) but what can you say to someone without sounding like an [Removed for Content]. " Hey man you're operating your toon at about 30% capacity, may want to look yer buffs."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally try to have everything up I can when grouping, true buffs/poisons drops quick and it takes a few to get it back up. It's made soooooo much easier to rebuff now with the hotbar changes etc. No more popping bags open and closed swicthing our rings, poisons, potions etc. I try to absolutely maximize what I can get out of my Ranger when grouping ( I know what I can get away with when soloing). Am I expecting too much? I guess I try to play as wide open as I can without getting myself or my group members killed.  Any thoughts?</DIV>

[Konth]

As far as the 53 ranger goes, well he may not have been "opperating" at maximum capacity for many reasons.  Like he didnt care/didnt want to.  Or had a friend play his toon and his friend wasnt "well" aware of the ranger class.  But as far as i go, i always have all my buffs up(poisons/food included) at all times.  So if that was what you were asking hope it helps. 

[King Leor]

<P>I cant help but laugh at the blade flurry thing. But even if it was this guys firend, he woudn't or at least shouldn't have blade flurry on his hotbar for the friend to even touch. Maybe he never got the new offensive stance?? lol. Blade Flurry..lol.....sigh</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[Dasanhgul]

<P>Can't say much about the Blade Flurry deal also, but I can tell you i've ran out of a bag filled with poisons so fast in a group in Clefts last nite, it made my alchemist friend curse me :smileyhappy:</P> <P>So it could be he was probably out of poisons at the time... <EM><shrug></EM></P> <P> </P>

[Nulad]

I've taken to not using poisens when grouped sometimes, If you have a Tank who is having difficulty holding agro (I normally group with a Guardian and they got battered with the N-Bat badly) then poisens just make things worse, I can't tell you the number of times I've stood back for a good 5 to 10 seconds so the tank can build agro, then hit trick arrow only to have arrow frenzy and poisens proc and the mob come hightailing it over to me cos I annoyed it something rotten.  Some fights are just better taken a little slower <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nul. <div></div>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<div></div>I play on a german server. Here you found only a few poisons in the broker. Our gild alchimist only had crafted the spells and forgot the poisons and potions. So nobody knows something about it. But then came the time he starts a Ranger and a few went to raid and need potions. After this time he knows all about it and our rangers and swashbucklers are well equiped. So if you do not have a gild with crafters it might  happen you did not hear anything about it. By the way as a ranger i choose alchimist for cratting Job. And this is great. I always have strong box full of poison and potion with me. Now we have 3 Rangers and 3 alchimists.<p>Message Edited by sAs-Bartleby on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 AM</span>

[Draughi]

<DIV>Is this the norm? Maybe.  I have a 59 ranger, I use blade flurry sometimes when I'm not going all out ranged.   I don't always use my poisons.  It depends on the group and the mob.  If I am the only DPS class in the group, and the tank can hold agro, sure I'll go three poisons, archer's frenzy and stream of arrows til my hearts content...hold about 700DPS this way.  But oftentimes (in Roost), our group slaughters mobs so fast it makes no sense to waste the precious poisons.  So, I don't use them.  Getting three procs with prismatic, frenzy, and gleaming for the arrow shots as it is.  I oftentimes will go just melee when I don't have a lot of arrows, so I'll crank up blade flurry.  The melee proc is nice with the new updates.  Rings, I don't always use either.   22str agl help, but again, group and mob specific times.  </DIV>

[JaggNomr]

<DIV>Just curious if you two were talking about each other or if this was seperate incedents. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried to use a lower tier offensive stance to see what happened in a group. Not much, I used the same amount of poison. I just hit for less. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So all out Offensive or Defensive is my vote.</DIV>

[Deml]

I don't think it's the norm but you do see some people that are like this.  I had a ranger in my guild that was lvl 50, this was Pre-DOF, that said he had never used poisons at all.  I've known assassin's who don't use poisons either.  Some people think that it's not needed for them to do their full dps, others don't want to spend the money for them and still others just don't know about them (although I think the last one is someone living in a cave while they levelled). 

[Star]

<P>I use poison when I have them but generally try to stick to purely legendary which I usually save for situations where I actually need the added DPS. Zones where I know that we can clear them quickly and cleanly with ease... well if I still have poison up from before, great. If not, oh well. Usually between bow procs and Arrow Flurry (or which ever it is at 56) I can dish out enough DPS and the poison procs don't make a whole lot of difference. If I see mobs takeing a while to go down or I'm the only good DPS in the grp (like taking 58+ mobs with a 53 wizzie, he's going to be taking a huge DPS hit from resists) I'll throw on a poison.</P> <P>When I do use poison I generally strictly keep to damage poisons with an stifle poison sometimes if the mobs needs to be stifled. I find that in most groups I don't need to debuff, thing just go down way to fast for it to matter *that* much. I don't solo at all really so I don't need them for that and in a raid situation I leave the debuffing to the debuffers. We haven't started hitting a whole lot of the T6 raid though so that mind set might change in the future.</P>

[GrayStorm]

I am always running some type of poison... at least the damage poison.  Get some cheaper stuff for those times when the killing is trivial.  Save the Adeste's for the tougher mobs.

[Crychtonn]

<P>The Blade Furry part seems a little odd but the rest isn't that unusual.  Alot may have depended on what class you had as a MT.  If it's a Gaurd or Pally that can reduce the Ranger's hate then he could go for higher DPS.  If it's a Zerker, Monk or Bruiser I can understand not using poison.  At high levels even without using poison it can be pretty easy for a Ranger to pull aggro.  So sometimes it's just easier to go without it.</P> <P>Rings not being up I'd guess happens alot.  I know I forget to redo them all the time.  Only really pay attention to have them up on raids.  For normal groups and instances it doesn't make that much of a difference.</P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

When maximizing my DPS is not essential, I tend to use old T5 poisons. I still have many vials of Disruptive Vexation, so that's my fallback. I'll tell ya tho, that Adeste's is <EM>addictive.</EM> I switch out to a lesser damage poison and I keep looking to my buffs and rings and stances wondering why my DPS is so lame...  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[hieronym]

<DIV>i have been using less and less poison lately, mainly because I use them up in minutes and the price was getting silly for them, also unless the MT is a pally and he has amends on me poison on a group of mobs makes them mad and for the tank to hold aggro is a bit of a problem. I do use them when i go to solo though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the rest i still see noobs running round, guess they just dont understand the game still</DIV>

[Sotaudi]

<P>Does anyone know if Blade Fury stops working at higher levels?  Because it is not necessarily a bad idea to have it available if it does not.  Note the descriptions:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><U>Blade Fury</U> - Grants the predator a chance to strike for an additional attack with each successful <EM><STRONG>melee</STRONG></EM> hit and increases offensive combat skills, at the cost of decreased defense and parry skill. This is the predator's primary offensive stance</P> <P><U>Arrow Flurry</U> - Grants the ranger a chance to strike for additional damage with each successful <STRONG><EM>ranged</EM> </STRONG>attack and increase offensive skills, at the cost of defense and parry skill. This is the ranger's primary offensive stance.</P> <P><U>Arrow Frenzy</U> - Grants the ranger a chance to strike for additional damage with each successful <EM><STRONG>ranged</STRONG></EM> attack and increase offensive skills, at the cost of defense and parry skill. This is the ranger's primary offensive stance.</P> <P><U>Archer's Frenzy</U> - Grants the ranger a chance to strike for additional damage with each successful <EM><STRONG>ranged</STRONG></EM> attack and increase offensive skills, at the cost of defense and parry skill. This is the ranger's primary offensive stance.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Blade Fury is the only stance we have that procs on melee hits.  Thus, unless it stops working at some point, switching to Blade Fury while using melee attacks and back to the ranged stances when using the bow will increase your DPS, even though the Blade Fury procs may not do as much damage as the others.  Even if it were just a few points of damage per proc, each proc can also trigger a poision, so even using Blade Fury would be better than no proc at all while in melee mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, that assumes the Blade Fury procs do not stop working past a certain level.  Does anyone know for sure if this is the case?</DIV>

[Nulad]

No idea, we need someone to parse it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Note also that Blade Flurry is the Predator's main offensive stance wheras the others are Ranger offensive stances, it's assumed by the game that because you are a Ranger that you <i>will </i>be using ranged for your damage, however if it proves to be the case that Blade Flurry still works even though gray then I for one will start using it again when in melee range. Nul. <div></div>

[Jay]

<P>I don't plan on ever using Blade Flurry again, the proc just is not worthwhile. The later stances don't proc on melee, but they do increase all offensive skills (Piercing, Slashing, Ranged, and Focus, I believe?) and it seems that the tradeoff for using Blade Flurry would mean that my offensive skills are all lower than they could be if I stick with Arrow Frenzy. </P> <P>I'm betting that I still do more melee damage using Arrow Frenzy than I would with the proc from Blade Flurry. I'd be interested in seeing evidence to the contrary, as that's just my gut feeling.</P>

[King Leor]

<P><U>                                                                                                                                                                                                                 </U></P> <P>I don't think it's the norm but you do see some people that are like this.  I had a ranger in my guild that was lvl 50, this was Pre-DOF, that said he had never used poisons at all.  I've known assassin's who don't use poisons either.  <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Some people think that it's not needed for them to do their full dps</STRONG></FONT>, others don't want to spend the money for them and still others just don't know about them (although I think the last one is someone living in a cave while they levelled). </P> <P></P><U></U> <P><U>                                                                                                                                                                                                                 </U></P> <P>That statement is just not right. If a scout expects to do "full DPS" than they have to use poisons. otherwise they are missing out on a huge chance to to proc alot of dmg. Anyone who thinks they dont need poisons to do max dmg should not be a scout. They shoudln't even play EQ.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by King Leoric on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 AM</span>

[Deml]

<P>I have to agree with Jay (without making any cat jokes this time).  I don't use Blade Flurry at all, and actually wonder why I still have it on my hotbar.  The time it takes to drop out of Archer's Frenzy and into Blade Flurry, along with the loss in stats, just isn't worth it for me.  Especially since the main attacks I use for "melee" are the backstabs, lunging blade and deadly reminder, all of which can actually be used from range.  I just stick with the bow offensive stance, enjoy the stats and figure 1-2 procs from that will make up any damage I might have done from engaging the melee stance.</P>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>I dont see the need to have a debuff poison up 24/7 but I am suprised when I don't see some form of damage poison up on a pred/rogue.  Sadly though, I've recently also come to the conclusion that no poison is fairly normal.  I've finally shown my guildies how powerful the stuff is at the cost of my own life at times. :p  So the people that weren't using poisons are now getting it stuffed down their throats. Lets just say this, I was #2 DPS on our first Darathar fight and I was using piercing arrows (I forgot to restock slashing arrows /cry) with Adeste's Disruption.  I was [Removed for Content] off at myself for my performance after the fight, but then I saw the logs and um.. yea. There is far too many DPS classes that aren't all out DPS even when they are supposed to.  This goes for far more then just scouts, lazy robe wearers think they can get away with 1 or 2 big hits and say look at their awesome DPS.  Yea, they had 700 DPS but I did 30,000 more points of damage then them with my 400 DPS. Oh and like Jay, I'm addicted to Adeste's. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Jay]

I actually like our damage model over the sorceror model. I'd much rather have a lower overall DPS score but be able to fine-tune my output to a greater degree. We can dial our damage payload up or down without too much problem, but that Ice Comet is going to do about 5000 damage no matter what. I prefer more attacks that cause less damage in the same overall timeframe, as it gives me more granular control over my damage output (and thus, my hate generation).

[King Leor]

<P>This is to stormhawks comment, DPS = damage per second. Meaning it's damage per second over the duration of the entire fight. SO if a robe wearer does 700 DPS you cant do 400 DPS and end up doing 30,000 more dmg during the fight because that means they did 300 more dmg per every second of that fight. so at the end if you did the overall most dmg your DPS will be higher.</P> <P>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</P>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>King Leoric wrote:<div></div> <p>This is to stormhawks comment, DPS = damage per second. Meaning it's damage per second over the duration of the entire fight. SO if a robe wearer does 700 DPS you cant do 400 DPS and end up doing 30,000 more dmg during the fight because that means they did 300 more dmg per every second of that fight. so at the end if you did the overall most dmg your DPS will be higher.</p> <p>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</p><hr></blockquote>I'm well aware of how DPS works.  I'm also well aware of how most DPS parsers work in that they calculate DPS based on the person's actions and not the true length of the fight.  Meaning you can have higher DPS then someone and do less damage because you didn't apply constant damage.  The *shock and awe* of the 700+ dps spikers makes people think they are useful but when you look under the covers they are actually do a lot less in the long run because they are only fighting for 1/2 the fight.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[King Leor]

<DIV>I meatn that with no insult to you, just with most parsers I have seen along with the one I use the DPS, mathecs the dmg + length of the fight if ya take time to do the math. I for one and hope all others are like this look at the actual total dmg done to the mob as opposed to just the DPS listed off to the side.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leoric<BR>Level 60 ranger</DIV>

[Stormhawk]

I guess I've had to explain to too many people that the DPS listed off to the side isn't the best thing to look at. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Guess that makes me bitter. heh. <div></div>

[Fennir]

single fight DPS means absolutely nothing in this game most group mobs die before casters can load up their big shots anyway it's all about DPS over time, which is almost impossible to calculate in an XP group because your skills often get extra time to cycle in between pulls if you want to calculate real dps, parse a raid zone and then try to remember that a lot of DPS is indirect and comes from buffs from others, dps from others, and procs from others. <div></div>

[Jay]

<DIV>And by all means, make sure you parse everything to death and do lots of math and complex calculations to ensure that you're "better" than the person(s) you're grouped or raiding with. Cuz in the end, that will matter more than anything else. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm_off  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Epofh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <DIV>And by all means, make sure you parse everything to death and do lots of math and complex calculations to ensure that you're "better" than the person(s) you're grouped or raiding with. Cuz in the end, that will matter more than anything else. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm_off  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/Sigh agree</P> <P>Seems like a lot of people are more concerned with how they measure up against others vs what they can bring to the table to help each other. I love grouping with all kinds of classes, and I would never turn one down based on a parse.... Some people behind the class bring far more to the table than the character they play.</P> <P>btw, yes I am one of those robe "panzies", just stopping in trying to find a decent layout of ranger skills, saw this post and ofc had to post myself :smileywink:</P>