Rangers and the Revamp.

[Sirlutt]

Heres a few of my thoughts on what I'd like to see change with us in the revamp. <ul> <li>Less snares, maybe a root.  Give us a couple of snares, but give us other things aswell.. a root (not the one we got from splitpaw) so we can get behind mobs solo, or stop mobs chasig us.</li> <li>Give us a boost to our attack speed and DPS, alot of our damage should come from regular attacks in mellee.  Same with assassins.. that should be a predators bread and butter.</li> <li>Let us use some, or all of our bow attacks at point blank range.  Being masters of the bow we should be able to use them in close combat.</li> </ul> I think those 3 are the main issues.  Give us some new abilities, or change some older ones to let us buff our DPS and attack speed.. not just the 2 buffs we have... thats how we should climb the DPs totem .. by melle damage. Thoughts ? <div></div>

[Mirdo]

<P>Hi,</P> <P>Well, SoE have stated that with the combat revamp they intend to make autoattack damage 'more meaningful'. Sorry but I can't find the rest of the quote but 'more meaningful' is exact. Not sure exactly what they mean by more meaningful - have to wait and see.</P> <P>A single, decent root would be nice for CC or soloing but I guess they don't want us doing the root n shoot thing. With our avoidance and mitigation it looks like they want us tanking mobs if we are not kiting them.</P> <P>The trouble with PB shots is that effectively it turns us into assassins - except we get the choice as to whether our damage is delivered up close or ranged - and Assassins won't be happy with that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Maybe a concentration skill or % damage reduction could be applied for PB shots - but not sure how such a system would work.</P> <P>As for 'a lot of our damage should come from regular attacks in melee' - well sorry but I don't agree. If I had wanted a high damage melee char I would have made an assassin. I deliberately chose a Ranger for the ranged and positional nature of their attacks. Anyway, looking at my first paragraph (and believeing what the Devs' say) it looks like we might be heading there anyway.</P> <P>Having played EQ1 I know that SoE can and will do anything they like with characters. The Ranger in EQ1 had a very blurred role for a long time. Debates and arguments raged on forums for literally years over whether they should be primarily melee or ranged. I hope we don't see that happening to the EQ2 Ranger. Right now their role and damage delivery system seems clear (not perfect, but at least well defined).</P> <P>Anyways, with the combat revamp (presumably) getting closer, we'll know what direction we are headed soon enough.</P> <P>Mirdo</P> <p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 AM</span>

[Akakill]

<P>One thing I dont personally like about rangers is the fact that so many of our attacks have to be positioned, if we are supposed to be masters of the bow, then we should be able to do the same damage from the front as we do from the back, a few positional attacks are fine, but if I wanted to be doing dmg from the back all the time,........ I would have rolled up an assasin, as the above poster said</P> <P>Secondly I dont think that we should have pb ranged combat, thats why its called ranged, and also rangers are not only known for great ranged combat, but also are known to be skilled swordsman, therefore if I am in the heat of close combat, im going to be using swords, not a bow. </P> <P>Just my 2cp</P> <P>Killa</P>

[Jay]

<P>Hmm. I personally think a point-blank bow attack might be nice, but allowing us to use all of our ranged attacks in melee would be pretty unbalanced. And once you get the hang of finding the sweet-spot, you can essentially use all you ranged attacks in melee anyway. </P> <P>Positional attacks I can understand and accept; that's a halllmark tactic of the predator classes. Those should stay as-is, IMO. I've never had a problem with them as I just spend every battle directly behind the mobs, assisting the tank and looking right at her over the enemy's shoulder. Or between the enemy's legs, as the case maybe - like when fighting level 50 ^^ Defenders of Thyr outside Solusek's Eye. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I don't think more or most of our melee damage should come from autoattack, but I'll tell ya, once you get in the higher levels that starts to happen naturally. Especially once you're sporting some haste items (Ancient Slayer's Ring + Flowing Black Silk Sash = 18% haste), you really start to churn out some nice damage just by sitting behind the mob with autoattack running. Especially once you factor in poison, melee procs, self-haste (Honed Reflexes) and amplified DPS (Feral Instinct), the results are actually very noticeable.</P> <P>I definitely agree on making snares and roots more meaningful. Whether that means giving us additional skills or tweaking existing ones, it'd be nice to see some actual effects from all these slow effects that we're supposed to have. </P>

[Merkad]

<div></div>Moorgard has already said that fighters will be losing their innate melee damage bonus, and that we shall be given that, so expect our melee dps to go up. As for point blank, I want it, now. As long as I am not the primary tank/aggro recipient, there is no logical reason why I cannot use a bow next to my enemy. As long as I have room to draw it, I could use it. You cannot say a gun cannot be used PB because it is a ranged weapon, that makes no sense. Ranged, simply means that it can be used at range, not that it has to be used at range. And to head this off before it starts, why do people insist on making ranged more penalized than melee? Last I checked, melee can hit from quite a larger distance than the weapon can actually reach.. talk about a discrepancy in implementation. Perhaps we should petition to have melee attacks more realistic, make everyone get within 3-4 feet of the mob to be able to hit it (sarcasm). Not to mention the near legendary skill mobs must have, to be able to parry so many archery attacks from the front, so much for the speed of the projectile having any relationship to the games combat engine. As for all the positional attacks and stealth required.. man I hope they remove that constraint on some of our attacks. Not all, because it does add some minor flavor, but some. I don't solo outside quests now a days, but it is amazing how much dps we lose if we solo or get aggro. That and I already feel too much like a Rogue.. man I want my EQLive Ranger ported into EQ2s world/ruleset. At any rate, this is a sore spot for me, I am just bewildered that so many people are looking to make things harder for our class when we already have numerous disadvantages. That, and there really is no logic in some of it. Merkades, 50th Ranger. Tradeskills suck, 28th Jeweler. <div></div>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merkades wrote:<BR> You cannot say a gun cannot be used PB because it is a ranged weapon, that makes no sense<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, but guns don't fire a <FONT color=#ffff33>3-4 foot bullet</FONT> out the end either. If I'm standing 3-4 feet behind my target and fire an arrow in it, it'll be sitting a few inches to a foot away when I'm done. To me, at least, that seems kinda silly. I'm of the opinion that NONE of our bow CA's should work within about an 8-10 foot radius. I'm more interested in submerssion and realism than I am being "UBER" though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having grown up on a 1000acre cattle ranch and growing up with both guns and bows, I can personally attest to the fact that using a bow to shoot something 3-4 feet away is ridiculous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless I'm going to use an arrow as a melee weapon, there should be no PB Bow attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackan - 50 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>Dominion - Toxx</DIV>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Don't want to get everyone's hopes up...but I group regularly with a berserker who managed to get in on the Desert of Flames beta.  At least a portion of the combat changes now reside on that server.  Don't ask me any specifics, because he was very tight-lipped, but according to what he said he saw in /ooc chat from other rangers, we are going to '<i><b>really</b></i> like' the combat changes.  That was all he would say. That being said, I have no problems with a minimum distance to use my bow.  That makes sense.  When grouped, we have some awesome melee attacks that we can use to make up for that when we get close to the mob, <i>and are behind it</i>.  Therein lies my only wish.  And that is for one or two high damage frontal attacks(on separate, but long timers) that don't stand such a chance of missing/being blocked or parried.  Whether it was a stealth nerf, or the same 40-up difficulties that my fellow rangers have talked about for so long(or maybe I've spec'd my character in some way that leaves her lacking), soloing is becoming increasingly difficult.  I gave up on Splitpaw.  Probably won't go back except for the group stuff....bah...I'm rambling now... No heals, no super buffs, no controllable pet, nothing extreme.  I think one or two high damage attacks that we can use when face to face with the mob would go a long way to making us a viable solo class without having to resort to kiting(which seems to be getting harder, as well).  But even this I don't wish for until the combat changes.  I really want to see SOE's vision of what we should be in this revamp. </font><div></div>

[Boruden]

<P>I don't understand people asking to remove the positional/stealth requirement on some skills.  I play a level 38 ranger and currently only have 5 skills with requirements like this: Crippling Blade(Stealth and Position), Raven Embers (Stealth), Spring(Stealth), Pouncing Attack (Position), and Sniping Shot (Positon).  All the rest of my skills can be used at any time.  Granted Crippling Blade and Sniping Shot are hard hitters and I feel helpless when I cannot use them.  However, I love the situational aspect of this class.  It makes it that much more interesting to play.  Mages are boring to me.  Sit back and blast.  I loving having to know where I am standing and making adjustments in order to be effective.  This game is very simple at its core.  Auto-attack and click some skills.  Adding positional and stealth attacks makes us have to pay attention.  The combat is more exciting. For me anyway...  Seeing as there are only 5 skills, that I have, which have situational requirements, I do not think it would be necessary to change them.  It really isn't too much and it's what makes rangers fun.  Granted these requirements should be taken into consideration when comparing Mage DPS to Scout DPS.  But seriously I would take less DPS and more involved combat any day.</P> <P>Boruden  </P>

[Rumbi]

<P>From what I've heard (a rumor from a reliable source.. oxymoron, I know), Rangers will be able to Melee and Range attack while standing in the same place.  The downside is that all bow attacks will be interrupted if moving.  This means: much easier positioning for regular fights (to use both range/melee) but goodbye to kiting.</P> <P>Don't quote me on this, because I dont play on DoF Beta.. just what I have heard.</P>

[draconetti]

Personally, i'm not too fond of much of whats been said.... i enjoy playing the rampant ranger diving around mobs while every other class stands around pressing buttons <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> the positional element and need to find range add an element of thought i've found other classes to be lacking, the where should i stand, whens safe to move out for bow ca's and so fourth issues never being far from any rangers thoughts although the idea of a PB bow shot sounds like it'd be great, i'll think it'll also make it boring something along the lines of a 2mins buff for PB bowing with a 10 min recast that takes 2 conc may work imho, allowing the dps to be kept up in certain situations if PB bowing and static bow shots are the flavour of the upgrade, i fear i'll become rather bored off my characterless ranger <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div>

[Sulas]

SWEET JEBUS I hope not.  If they remove kiting I'm gonna be ticced. <div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> draconetti wrote:<BR>although the idea of a PB bow shot sounds like it'd be great, i'll think it'll also make it boring<BR>something along the lines of a 2mins buff for PB bowing with a 10 min recast that takes 2 conc may work imho, allowing the dps to be kept up in certain situations<BR><BR>if PB bowing and static bow shots are the flavour of the upgrade, i fear i'll become rather bored off my characterless ranger <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I strongly agree here. Maybe it's just part of playing a kerran ranger, but I <EM>move </EM>in combat, even when I don't need to! I run up walls, jump over the mob, turn and slash in the air, dive behind them and stealth for a big backstab, then turn and circle as I fire off some bow specials. It's all part of the fun for me. Obviously I sit tight and watch myself when I'm in more dangerous areas (lava bath, anyone?) but I like the freedom of movement that we are allotted in the current system. </P> <P>It sounds like some folks just want their rangers to be more uber <STRONG>and</STRONG> easier to play. I guess I'm just not in that camp; I don't feel like I'm that restrained. Playing my ranger is not hard, it's fun - positional attacks, ranged weaponry and all. If I wanted to stand in one place and click buttons, I'd roll a wizard. I actually enjoy the tactics and demands of playing a ranger. And no, I'm not asking that they make our job harder (still not sure where you saw that, Merkades) just more sensible without compromising the current tactics and combat style that we currently enjoy. </P> <P>And c'mon, people - those of you asking to use melee and ranged attacks from the same spot without moving? YOU CAN. Right now. It's there, in the game, totally possible and easily used. Just get in melee range, back off a bit, and use arts like Sniping / Culling to test your minimum bow range with Lightning Strike / Blazing Thrust to test your maxium melee range. Even if you can't figure out the exact placement, it's just not hard to move 3-5 feet forward or backward to alternate your attacks. </P> <P>PB bow use should be restricted to a single CA (or a line of CAs) or a buff like Draconetti described - even better! That could become VERY useful in close-quarters combat where we just cannot back off far enough to easily use the bow. Or even a Point Blank Stance - give up some of your bow CA damage for the ability to use it at melee range, uses three concentration slots, etc. I'd rather use my bow with reduced damage that not use it at all. </P>

[Akakill]

<P>if they make ranged CA's not useable while moving, there pretty much goes kiting as we know it, the only thing that would solve that woudl be to make snares and roots for us and make them actually friggen work, I could see you not be able to move because it would be more realistic, but they casting time woudl have to be greatly shortened I think, like to a half a second, because when we have to stop for the mob to catch up, we are pretty much screwed.</P> <P>killa</P>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">I had not heard the part about needing to be stationary for CA's.  If that is true, that will be the worst freaking nerf we've suffered to date.  I <b><i>depend</i></b> on that movement sometimes.  I could care less about kiting, but launching a CA <i>while</i> wheeling around to the tank's newly aquired target is part of my m.o.  Looks like new strategies are in order for us all.  I hope you guys are ready to adapt and overcome...again. BTW...SOE has been anti-kiting since release.  It would not surprise me in the least if they have implemented a way to eliminate it completely. </font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[Rumbi]

Recently got this corfirmed.. DoF = no more kiting for rangers.. unless something changes between now and September 12th.

[Tov]

<DIV>From what I gather from all I've read one of SoE's goals is that the game becomes more challenging and nobody solo's heroics or higher anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a realistic front, as long as I can kite a mob but it can't reliably hit me, I can defeat a mob. To stop my ranger's personal ability to solo heroic+ mobs you have two choices as far as I see. One is the need give every heroic+ mob a root, a snare, the ability to summon, or some awe inspiring ranged attacks of their own. The big problem with this option is that very few people will ever be able to escape from heroic+ mobs. The other option, as I see it, is to make it so I can't use my ranged abilities while in motion. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not in beta or anything so I can't know for sure, but the above makes me give at least some credability to this rumor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If, as a tradeoff, I can use my ranged abilities from melee range, I can accept that change. As somebody who has used bows since I was 7 years old, I find close range archery to be more realistic then shooting a storm of arrows while running backwards or in a circle. When you hit something the arrow goes into it a foot or more, be it a foam target or a critter. Unless you're shooting at a tree where the arrow will only go in a few inches, there is nothing really stopping you from letting fly from only a few feet. Again, chain firing arrows while running in a circle backwards is what I find unrealistic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In terms of gameplay. close range would mean I'll be more viable in tight, dangerous areas. I would still be able to solo normal mobs - that part may even be easier. Groups won't be a cakewalk anymore. Heroic+ will be out the window, but as said I think that's the idea not just for Rangers but for everybody.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll have to play with it once it goes live to give my final judgment, but I think trading archery while in motion, for point blank archery could be an acceptable compromise.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tover on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span>

[draconetti]

with the previous nerfs to kiting, 2m off bow range and a boast to mob run speed, i personally wasn't kiting heroics... groups of solo yes but i found kiting a waste of time for the gain. loss of kiting hasn't largely been whats bothered people (well, not mentioned directly), its more the loss of diversity within the ranger class imho. and if we lose kiting i hope mages lose their snares <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Kla]

I dont think its good idea when the rangers would loose their ability to kite mobs. For me, the kiting part is a big part of the rangers gameplay. Its fun to know that you can kite lvl50 heroic  mob with lvl 47. And its well balanced too at the moment. The time you spend and the EXP you get equals with killing solo mobs. But with killing solo mobs you get much more rewards and its not as risky as killing heroics. If the rangers loose their ability to kite, all casters should loose their ability to root the mobs or we should get the root ability. But that doesnt make sense in my eyes, because kiting is much funnier than standing around, root the mob and shoot it down. <div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>A new ranger ability I wish was in the revamp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say you are using your bow, but are being swamped by a mob (they caught up to you). Instead of pulling out sword in hand immediately, twould be nice to have a ca that stabbed them with an arrow in your hand. Sort of like a desperation ca before going to sword (defensive arrow for lack of a better name). Would be more realistic. Swords take time to draw, arrows are already at hand. Sort of like a reverse rip ca. Instead of tearing it out, it would insert it. Not high damage, just something to maybe stun/stifle a second or two while you whip the swords out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think they will ever make us stay stationary to shoot, least I hope not. Think of mounted archers...what a waste the mount would be...just standing there looking silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my .02</DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

[Ibixat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sulas wrote:SWEET JEBUS I hope not.  If they remove kiting I'm gonna be ticced. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I might be, but it all depends, if I'm able to launch my bow attacks at point blank range I don't care so much about having to stand still to use them, the problem now is that I need to be able to move around to make sure those bow attacks are in bow range to actually fire... Even when fighting and not kiting mobs as a ranger you must run backwards from time to time if you want to use your bow ca's for the damge they offer, which when soloing is really the only good damage we get. Point blank + stationary = not so bad same range requirements + stationary = bad As long as we dont' get totally screwed out of being able to use bow ca's when fighting a set of solo grouped mobs it won't be a big deal I think.</span><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>I guess it's all about which rumors you choose to believe at this point. There's no real sense in speculating, but I can't help but be a bit nervous at the thought of removing our ability to use bow arts on the run. </P> <P>Quites simply, Rangers in this stage of the game are designed for kiting. We are <EM>supposed</EM> to do it. We don't have to, but our skills align in such a way as to suggest that it was intended that we would. Bow arts fire on the run, half our attacks (should) cause snares or slows, many melee attacks have extended range, and we get abilities that increase our movement speed. All of these factors point to kiting as a solo tactic intended for rangers to use to their advantage. </P> <P>If they remove the ability to fire bow arts on the run, the whole equation falls apart. Those slows and the extended range melee attacks become useless, or at most a small added convenience. They'd better "revamp" a whole hell of a lot of our skills if they disable one of our primary features. The arch collapses without the keystone. </P> <P>Again, it's only rumors, and I shouldn't be starting to dread the revamp... but I am. I fear that come September, we're going to log in and find ourselves playing a different character class in a different game. I like my class <EM>now</EM>. I like <EM>this </EM>game. I'm not going to know how much I'll enjoy the new game until I play it, but I sure hope I don't end up so disappointed that my eight months of progress taking Kaeros from 1 to 50 will end up a waste of time and money. </P>

[Axxon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Quites simply, <STRONG>Rangers</STRONG> in this stage of the game<STRONG> are designed for kiting</STRONG>. We are <EM>supposed</EM> to do it. We don't have to, but our skills align in such a way as to suggest that it was intended that we would. Bow arts fire on the run, half our attacks (should) cause snares or slows, many melee attacks have extended range, and we get abilities that increase our movement speed. All of these factors point to kiting as a solo tactic intended for rangers to use to their advantage. </P> <P><STRONG>If they remove the ability to fire bow arts on the run, the whole equation falls apart</STRONG>. Those slows and the extended range melee attacks become useless, or at most a small added convenience. They'd better "revamp" a whole hell of a lot of our skills if they disable one of our primary features. The arch collapses without the keystone. </P> <P>Again, it's only rumors, and I shouldn't be starting to dread the revamp... but I am. I fear that come September, we're going to log in and find ourselves playing a different character class in a different game.<STRONG> I like my class <EM>now</EM>. I like <EM>this </EM>game</STRONG>. I'm not going to know how much I'll enjoy the new game until I play it, but I sure hope I don't end up so disappointed that my eight months of progress taking Kaeros from 1 to 50 will end up a waste of time and money. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I could not agree more, and could not have said it any better than you.  I will be sorely disappointed if the rumors come to pass.  <BR>

[kavek]

I think that just reducing the delay and increasing the range on bows would make a huge difference. I can only get off 2 CA's before most mobs reach me. I do kite on occasion, but I always feel like I'm cheating the system. I can't believe that kiting is something that the developers wanted people to do.  

[Sulas]

<div></div><div></div>I should have elaborated. I also enjoy being able to move around while i fight.  I agree with the others who like to Stun and fire off a CA while i stealth and get behind the MoB.  I get a huge kick out of wheeling around the MoB and hitting it with Melee and Bow CAs.  I love when others stop to watch my manic style of play. I like being a ranger, i like being unique, and if I wanted a static Avatar I would have picked a different class. Go*****t Sony! Quit trying to make the classes alike!  It takes me forever to kite a singel Mob, and frankly, I'm not very good at it.  I'm certainly nowhere near as fast as a soloing Mage... who sics their pet ( a better tank than i am) on the MoB and then blasts it with a DD. Please, just leave me be...  I'm having fun NOW. Don't ruin it. Kavek, Consider what Jay42 wrote.  Most of our CAs are bow shots, that work while moving and take a long time to fire off.  You're not 'getting' away with something.  You're doing what you're supposed to be doing. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sulas on <span class="date_text">07-26-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:12 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sulas on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[Rumbi]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Quites simply, Rangers in this stage of the game are designed for kiting. We are <EM>supposed</EM> to do it.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I am pretty sure that SOE has been pretty clear about them <EM>not</EM> wanting any class to be able to kite in EQ2.  I agree that some of the skills lead to that assumption, but this is what they stated a while back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could dig up the quote, but that would take a while.. if you don't beleive me, I might have to, though. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Merkad]

Ahh, how did I ever manage to forget that I posted here. Blacken, sillyness aside, what part being 1 foot away from your projectile after it has impacted is not "real"? You said it yourself, that you could, but would feel silly. That is the reality, it is doable. I don't mind you having your opinion, I really don't, I just don't fancy people putting their opinions on me. Whether I have said it or not on these boards (I know I have on the Ranger's Glade boards) I personally favor melee more than archery, so what I am arguing for is not even my perferred method to fight, simply fairness. It has nothing to do with being Uber, as you labeled me, and I dare say, from your previous posts you probably are more uber than I will be for quite some time. What I want is the so-called realism you are advocating for. How you can call it as doable but silly seeming, and then say it is not "real" or break immersion is beyond me. I do agree that I would not want to be less than a foot away from my arrow after impacting in real life, maybe 3-4 for me, but this is not real life. Games are about fun, and fun should always trump mechanics, unless it breaks the game in some fundamental way. Seeing as how you advocate no PB for bows because they are ranged, then let me ask you this more directly, since you did not bother with that segment of my last post: If bows are to be restricted from use in an unusual, but not impossible way, then why not also restrict melee weaponry in the same fashion? I don't hear you nor anyone else clamoring about how unrealistic it is for people to hit mobs from 3-30 times the weapon's + individual's reach. You want to go on about "unrealistic" or how it breaks "immersion", then how can you, or anyone else, leave that out? I really cannot stress the inequality of this enough, from a realistic standpoint. But in the end, this is a game, a fantasy one at that. If a mere mortal can take hits from mutli ton giants and shrug them off, if people can cast spells to summon comets of ice, if people can transcend time through dark rituals, surely one must have figured out how to shoot a bow from closer than 8-10 feet. One thing I will agree on, the gun x bow comparison was not entirely apt to my point as the medium used is not similar, even though the basics of attack are.  Regardless, many inequalities abound in this game, I just cannot see the point in stressing to restrict us further when it affects almost exclusively Rangers and Assassins. I think the effort would be better spent trying to get things that affect everyone implemented/removed, the last thing I want is one more hoop to jump through. Merkades, 50th Ranger. Tradeskills suck, 29th Jeweler. <div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">"I could dig up the quote, but that would take a while.. if you don't beleive me, I might have to, though."</font> <font size="2"> We are all aware of that quote.  It has been discussed many times on these boards.  There's no need for you to look it up for us. I don't want to speak for Jay, but I don't believe he's talking about what is documented.  I believe he is talking about what is actually happening in-game.  The following is not speculation.  It is a fact.  <i><b>A large portion of our combat abilities have a snare effect.</b></i>  That alone should tell you that kiting is a viable method of combat.  (Some may consider the following to be speculation) In fact, if a ranger wants to solo effectively in EQ2, s/he better learn to kite proficiently.  Due to a modification to agility, we take a lot more hits than we probably should in close up fighting.  And when we do get hit...it hurts...probably more than it should considering that we can wear medium armor. If they remove the snares...fine.  If they modify our CA's so you must be stationary...fine.  But we should be provided with something that allows us to solo </font><font size="2">(this coming from a person who strongly advocates grouping)</font><font size="2"> at least as well as a templar.  I did not adopt kiting because I wanted to...I did so out of necessity, as have many other rangers judging from what i have read. </font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Merkad]

Let's see, other posts I read after the intial response I wrote today... @Boruden -  You are missing one and a 1/2 skill lines, Hidden shot/hidden fire require stealth. Spring as you did mention is the half point. It is on a seperate timer from Natural Selection, which means they can be used back to back. So you are looking at 6 dedicated skill lines, and one bonus attack that requires stealth and/or position. That is about half of your attacks that you might use per fight. And, imo, the worst ones of those are the Spring/Natural Selection line. Mobs you AE tend to die fast.. very fast. Being one of the few classes that requires stealth then activation on our basic AE, you may find mobs die before you get the skill off, or at least both skills. Which is further compounded by the skill not landing on the remainder of the mobs if the intital target has died. And, for all our stealth and positional dps, it sure does not show up on the dps charts, not overall class usefullness (hence, combat revamp). @Jay42 - By harder I do not mean to imply that I think the Ranger of EQ2 is hard, I find the Ranger in EQLIve much harder and much more fun to play. By harder I simply mean that adding unecessary restrictions, additional clicks what-have-you is tedious and annoying. Not difficult. I do kinda like the mobility aspect of the ranger, instead of just sitting there, but you know, if they added PB I probably would stop doing it, feel free to rp it though. In general - I fail to see the whole Uber shenanigan that has been mentioned a bit often. It is not like Rangers get buffs people want, great defense, top damage. We *are* supposed to be pretty high up on dps, but, while we do do good dps, we are not top, nor are we even currently in the top 4, as our class is supposed to be. (though that is free for debate, and various things can change it, but the combat revamp is happening for a reason). For my own personal crusade -  Tover brings up an excellent point, so many people cannot see something much more realistic like PB archery, yet they have no issue with Storm of Arrows? Don't get me wrong, I love the skill, but man, I feel like taking a brick to my head reading some of these weirdly construed anti logical posts. (mainly because people argue one thing and leave out every other thing that may have mitigating effects, or be downright more ludicrous) Merkades, 50th Ranger. Tradeskills suck, 29th Jeweler. <div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rumbite wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Quites simply, Rangers in this stage of the game are designed for kiting. We are <EM>supposed</EM> to do it.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am pretty sure that SOE has been pretty clear about them <EM>not</EM> wanting any class to be able to kite in EQ2.  I agree that some of the skills lead to that assumption, but this is what they stated a while back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could dig up the quote, but that would take a while.. if you don't beleive me, I might have to, though. :smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It's interesting, b/c yeah, they do have the whole anti-kiting stance. So why were we provided the skillset we were if not to use it as such? I think it's a nuanced situation - which SOE has a hard time dealing with - b/c kiting can be both an exploit and a legitimate soloing technique. Were the kiting model to work legitimately, though, SOE would have to somehow stop it as an exploit but make certain subclasses "more" able to do it, again, as a legitimate technique, for soloing especially. But let's take it a step further and scrap the idea of "kiting" altogether.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the problem as we see it is pretty simple - we need room to use our bow arts. That's why most soloing rangers kite in the first place. I do like moving in combat, but I don't really get thrilled by sprinting in a backwards circle - I kite b/c I can't field more than half of my damage if I don't. So really, SOE needs to enable us to deliver that bow damage, especially in a solo situation, by somehow allowing for an intervening space between the ranger and the enemy (assuming that they don't alter the PB range conditions and don't allow for mobile bow arts). Maybe the roots really root, or snares REALLY snare - like a reduce move speed by 75% or something more significant like that. Hell, we already have a Leg Shot, why not make it for real? Seriously cripple the mob for X seconds so you can get off a mess of ranged CAs before they break and close for melee. If our slows were a LOT more meaningful, that would make a noticeable difference too, especially if we got some kind of additional in-combat move speed increase. You could slow or snare the mob, run back, stop, and fire a few times before the slow or snare broke or your speed boost expired. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other changes and ideas accompanying any complete eradication of kiting are going to determine whether that removal seriously hurts our ability to solo or not.  If we can't keep that space to use our bow arts somehow - or if we dont need to, but I personally don't want unlimited PB range - we're going to have some really limited effectiveness as soloers. Perhaps have even less effectiveness in groups, too. And while I spend probably 80-90% of my time grouped or at least duoing, I don't want to be forced to rely on a group to do the damage I'm designed to deliver. </DIV>

[Rumbi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Rumbite wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jay42 wrote: <p>Quites simply, Rangers in this stage of the game are designed for kiting. We are <em>supposed</em> to do it.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I am pretty sure that SOE has been pretty clear about them <em>not</em> wanting any class to be able to kite in EQ2.  I agree that some of the skills lead to that assumption, but this is what they stated a while back.</div> <div> </div> <div>I could dig up the quote, but that would take a while.. if you don't beleive me, I might have to, though. :smileyhappy:</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>It's interesting, b/c yeah, they do have the whole anti-kiting stance. So why were we provided the skillset we were if not to use it as such?</div><hr></blockquote>Thats a very good question.  I dont agree with what Sony is doing, but this is the reality of the whole situation.. unfortunately.. <span>:smileysad:</span></span><div></div>

[Te]

<P>Hehe just a sidenote iv found funny to think of sometimes.</P> <P>Would be fun to have a pet that actually attacks when ordered to, it doesnt need to do a lot of damage but would still be fun<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Sirlutt]

wow didnt mean to open up this storm .. lol. I guess my pet peeve right now is the 3 single damage dealing CA's i can use solo ..i have some debuffs that dont do alot of damage directly.. i'd prefer more attacks to use..or a higher DPS output via haste, or a DPS buff so I can do more DPs with just plain weapons .. in close fighting. .my bow is useless.. alot of my attacks are rear attacks ..  i'm left with less than half my attacks functioning. <div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>If they remove the snares...fine.  If they modify our CA's so you must be stationary...fine.  But we should be provided with something that allows us to solo </FONT><FONT size=2>(this coming from a person who strongly advocates grouping)</FONT><FONT size=2> at least as well as a templar.  I did not adopt kiting because I wanted to...I did so out of necessity, as have many other rangers judging from what i have read.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Great minds think alike, eh Zho? And you managed to say it in three sentences, while I took three paragraphs. And I'm supposed to be a writer? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Either way, I think this is the crux of the issue. <STRONG>We must be allowed to use the majority of our attacks while soloing</STRONG>, like most any other class I can think of. Our damage depends on it, and damage is the purpose for which we're designed. I'm not all that durable, I can't heal, I can't stun or root or mez, I can't buff much - so my viability rests on damaging the mobs faster than they can damage me.</P> <P>I think this need could be met in a variety of creative an interesting ways. It'd be fun to play up our mastery of the bow, and give us some amazingly accurate shots that produce an effect that slows / stuns / roots the enemy. For example, say we get a new CA line - "Blinding Shot" or something, which is only useable when the enemy is facing you (nice counterpart to Sniping), and produces a slow or stun effect that lasts for X period of time, rather than breaking as soon as we fire another shot. Since our bow skill should be legendary, it's fitting that we could put an arrow through a nightblood's eye socket at 50 paces. They either stumble around blindly, or just for game purposes are "stunned" and we get a few seconds to fire off another volley of bow CAs before they charge.</P> <P>Good discussion here, folks. A lot of this IS speculation, but who know, maybe SOE sees this and takes some of our concerns or ideas into account.</P>

[Vydian]

I'm with the majority here in thinking that if kiting is taken away from us, it will need to be replaced with SOMETHING to let us use our bow arts while solo. On top of that, it would be nice if our stealth attacks were abit more reliable solo than they are now. I can work the cheap shot -> <insert stealth/hate reducer here> -> <insert stealth attack here> chains, but it isn't very reliable as poison procs break the stun alot. What I would like to see doesn't even require new arts, just alterations to existing ones. First, make our snares unbreakable, lastingt the full duration. If this happens, we can snare, back up, and get a few CA's off before the mob can get to us. It's not kiting, but it would probably be enough to use bow CA's while soloing. Second, make it so poison procs DON'T break the cheap shot stun. Heck, make it so ANY damage doesn't break the cheap shot stun. It's a stun, not a mezz. We all know the idea behind it is to aid in positional attacks while soloing, but better than half the time now, the poison will proc and break the stun right when I need to land a good stealth attack. Think about it. Cheap shot lasts like 5 seconds if no damage is being done (I think). Poison once applied procs every 6 seconds. Hmm, a 1 seconds margin of error all while the person is moving around a mob while hitting the stealth button. 5 seconds *is* enough time to work with, but only if the poison hasn't procced yet or you have your timing down REALLY well.. Just my thoughts. Zylin 38 Ranger 36 Provisioner

[Rikare]

<DIV>hmm, I am starting to get nervous now. </DIV> <DIV>If they remove kiting, I would really like to know why. I don't see it as a cheat or exploit. More like an art-form and for us a way of fighting if we wanna kill anything else but green non-heroics. I wonder if SOE think that kiting is unfear, and makes us better than other classes? Do we ruin the gameplay for other classes? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think im gonna run to Ferrot and lvl up fast as hell... Good luck to all u Rangers, and Assassins or other players kiting out there. I truly hope we will have fun even after DOF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jay]

<P>I agree on the remarks re: the snares, and Cheap Shot. Frankly, I think Cheap Shot and Corner shouldn't just expire and go gray, but be replaced by better stuns and debuff attacks later on. And I want my Blinding Shot, dammit! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Dojoc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rumbite wrote:<BR>Recently got this corfirmed.. DoF = no more kiting for rangers.. unless something changes between now and September 12th. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>official post? where to find, or maybe some1 copy&paste it here? i want to see it with my own eyes ...beta forums are closed for non-beta users</P> <P>ays</P>

[Fedayki]

Jay42, Corner gets replaced by Snipe. Cheap shot unfortunatelly doesnt get a replacement. <div></div>

[gossi]

<div></div>Kiting will most likely be and should be removed from our combat arsenal.  The reason for my opinion is that I have seen too many people, ranger and not, kite heroic and epic mobs....this should not happen.  Now you say, why not just make all these mobs have a summon character or have extreme run speeds.  If every heroic and epic mob had those abilities, the game would get old quick.  I think certain arts should be available while moving, perhaps make a constant, that would allow a player to only move "x" number of feet before the art is interrupted. Linyen 50 Ranger Permafrost Fires of Heaven <div></div><p>Message Edited by gossin6 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 PM</span>

[Orophin]

Hey if they are going to kill our kiting, then nerf the hell out of mages mezzes since they can also stand there and take heroic mobs on their own. Oh and Templars with their super heals... and how about taking some AC of those pesky tanks? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[gossi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Orophin wrote:Hey if they are going to kill our kiting, then nerf the hell out of mages mezzes since they can also stand there and take heroic mobs on their own. Oh and Templars with their super heals... and how about taking some AC of those pesky tanks? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span> Every class is being looked at and is being changed, the whole combat system will be different. I doubt they saw that Rangers were way too juiced and needed to make sure that their bow kiting was top priority to nerf.  Maybe just sit back and wait for the revamp and then start discussing it.  Until you know whats happening to every class, its just rumors and blabber. Linyen 50 Ranger Permafrost Fires of Heaven <div></div>

[Teksun]

<span><blockquote><hr>Orophin wrote:Hey if they are going to kill our kiting, then nerf the hell out of mages mezzes since they can also stand there and take heroic mobs on their own. Oh and Templars with their super heals... and how about taking some AC of those pesky tanks? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I have to disagree with you here. Just because we may be getting the shaft I DO NOT want anyone else to. Argue the point for RANGERs NOT against anyone else. If we call for other classes to get nerfed than we are hurting ourselves as well (do you ever group?) That said. I agree with the stun. It should NOT be broken by damage. The MoBs stun/mez never is (check out Harclave - mezzed for 10 seconds getting hit the whole time). I hate the idea of taking away are CA's on the move. Taking away are ability to kite would hurt enough, but not being able to move in group combat, YIKES!!!</span><div></div>

[ArcticRang]

<DIV>Hello Fellow Rangers,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>     I don't post very often until I see something worth throwing a few coppers at.  But for this revamp we all really don't know which way SOE will go until we can have people that are Beta testing to talk to.  But with this NDA going on even they won't speak.  Coming from Dark Age of Camelot, those of you who know about the game and the archer classes there know the kinda BS I went through as a ranger.  I'd like to see some upgrades or revamps on skills that have been greyed out but we still use, cheap shot? the kick to the groin for a stun, and Blade flurry , Deadly reminder needs to use the damage type we are currently wielding instead of pierce damage which some mobs are immune to.  Honestly our Avoidance should be much higher than our mitigation.  We should not get hit often but when we do it should hurt.  Maybe a use for the 2-3 extra concentration spots we have left over when we have blade flurry up.  And my biggest problem and this falls under realisim...how the heck do you parry arrows?  and then again how do you parry multiple or rapid fired arrows in succession?  Fix our snares/slows/roots to work correctly or take them out and give us something that works.  Sorry for the jumble of thoughts.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ArcticRanger on <span class=date_text>07-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[Donc]

<P>I agree with a lot of the posters (Boruden, Sulas, Jay) here, especially about the need for kiting OR an alternative which allows us to be a viable class for soloing. 90% of my play is solo so I have a strong self-interest. I don't disagree with posters who say we should get a PB bow ability of some sort and I would take it if that is the alternative that SOE offers. However, I like the idea of Blinding Shot or stronger snares/roots. Maybe it could be something that is applied to arrows like a potion/poison but which would stack with everything. I can see the scenario where I hit a mob with one of these imbued arrows and a blinding flash occurs which disorients and slow the beast for x seconds. Also, Hidden Shot could be made such that the mob doesn't initially react because the Ranger is stealthed when s/he shoots.</P> <P>I know that the Ranger class is more difficult to play, especially for solo. However, I enjoy the challenge and excitement of staying mentally sharp during most encounters. I hope SOE doesn't change the class so much that we become another button-mashing class.</P>

[Sulas]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>gossin6 wrote:<span></span> Every class is being looked at and is being changed, the whole combat system will be different. I doubt they saw that Rangers were way too juiced and needed to make sure that their bow kiting was top priority to nerf.  Maybe just sit back and wait for the revamp and then start discussing it.  Until you know whats happening to every class, its just rumors and blabber. Linyen 50 Ranger Permafrost Fires of Heaven <div></div><hr></blockquote>Linyen, I appreciate and even understand the spirit of what you're saying, but we've learned that silence regarding this level of change is an awful mistake.  What we really need to do is raise Holy He*l before our movement/ kiting is nerfed.  If any of these are on the table: forcing me to stand in one spot; losing the challenging (read: enjoyable) abilty that is kiting; or even messing with the fun I have bouncing around  - then I want the Devs to understand just how pi**ed off we're really going to be if they actually implement the above changes.  The Devs need to be made aware of what we're really enjoying about the game as it is *now*.  I don't care about the game as *they* wish it to be.  If it works and is entertaining us... don't fiddle with it just to match some months-old template.  My only hope is that every other class community would make very loud and clear pronouncements about what they love about their classes. So, in short: No, I won't be quiet; I'm not waiting until it's too late. edit: reminder to proof-read</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sulas on <span class=date_text>07-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Gneen]

<P>Kiting is fun.   For me, it is a lot more fun than standing toe-to-toe.</P> <P>Granted I can take on higher level mobs and groups of mobs that would wipe the floor with me otherwise ... maybe that's why I find it fun??</P> <P>I enjoy the planning of it ... finding the place without adds ... avoiding the casters ... running without bumping into stuff ... it is a learned skill like any other.</P> <P>Is it realistic?  I'm not sure I care in a world filled with Orcs and Gnolls and spells.</P> <P>Ah heck ... kiting is just plain fun.</P> <P>Please don't take my fun away.</P> <P>=Gneen - Leaver of Shards</P>

[Mithremakor]

Blacken, have you ever seen a real bow?  I have but I have never seen a three foot arrow, that's a spear.  I'm a bow hunter in RL.  I shoot 28 inch arrows and that's dead average.  I could shoot something at arms length with full damage as well. <div></div>

[Mithremakor]

Personally, I think they will destroy our class if they take away kiting.  I prefer to solo most of the time and if I have to group just to kill some heroics for a quest I'm not gonna be a happy camper.  As buggy as this game is getting anyway, if they take away our kiting and start pushing harder for groups it may be time to try another game. <div></div>

[Ird]

<DIV>In my opinion, I've noticed a few things about rangers, myself, guildmates, and groups:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, lots of people become rangers because we're seen as a sort of mixed class. We can be a somewhat backup tank when _absolutely_ necessary (don't take me wrong, I hate being in melee combat as much as the next ranger). We are a high DPS, specially with DoT posions or DD posions. As it was mentioned, we're not #1... or #2, or #3, but we're high enough for it to matter. Every group love PF and evac i've noticed. And of course (no one is going to say Sony ment for this to happen, quite the opposite) but the way we're built, kiting is in our nature. In fact, I don't know if anyone noticed this, (I think the skill is Wounding Shot) <---- this skill was originally made so you cant use it while moving. Lo and behold, recently I noticed that perticular thing was removed. Now ask, why would Sony remove the "don't move if you want this skill to work" feature if we're absolutely ment to note kite?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, which I strayed into up here, if a Ranger cannot kite, whether solo or group, we're asking for a beating. In melee, we are getting beat, and often baddly, if we're the ones taking damage. Sniping shot (only skill in mind right now) slows the mob down so we can run away and shoot again. If we are ment to stand still and shoot, they're going to have to do better than a 32% speed reduction. 32% lets me get far enough away to lay off one of my faster CAs before the mob is back on me and hitting me for 5-10% of my health (thinking of the Splitpaw Pit Champion right now).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next, maybe this is just my DnD nature coming into play, Rangers are not here what they are in many other games. Rangers are often thought of these woodsy, outdoorsy, handle any situation that comes to them sort of thing. Almost a jack-of-all-trades; note quite amazing at any one thing but possible for anything. Again, DnD, rangers have pets, heal, and still do decent damage. If any of these rumors about DoF are true, Rangers will become the character with medium health, decently easy to hit for high ammounts, no heals, and no methods of distraction. We'll have to use evac as often as not, something which I'm proud to say I don't have to use too often at this moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I first picked a ranger thinking, "Oh, ok, someone best with a bow, can run around and shoot when necessary, can use melee is needed, a general, good character." Now at level 36, soloing, specially in a small space where I can't move around to shoot an arrow, I'm lucky to survive with more than 20% of my health. If i have the room to shoot, even standing still I can take away more than half a mobs health, that's if they don't resist my arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think my point in the end is that if we're going to get a revamp, we could use something that'll aid us in that matter. Like someone said above, a great idea would be give us a pet that can attack. Not high damage, but something to draw aggro and hold it, atleast a while. Maybe give us a minor heal, only able to use outside combat. Give us a or many better snares/roots. As I'm leveling, I'm finding my skills as a ranger in less and less demand. Can't do the DD or crowd control of a mage, can barely tank at all unless the mob is white or blue to me, obviously cant heal, and only have 2 group buffs. I remember getting picked into a party specifically because I had evac. I don't want to be the class known for evac. And if we lose our inadvertent kiting abilities, rangers will be next to useless, IMO.</DIV>

[Rikare]

<DIV>I think u made many good poins Irdal. Kiting is what we do to survive..and it is what makes us able to kill even green normal mobs. I take a lot of beating if I meele 2-3 green mobs. Blue are almost a certain death. And another thing: Kiting is really fun. I love to Kite in Nektulos and take down a few bears cause it takes a lot of practice if u don't want to draw agro from the other mobs there. U got to avoid trees, mushrooms etc. It is not easy, but it is a lot of fun when u make it. In tight areas like SH, sewers, etc we have a hard time making it out alive solo. So, if they remove kiting, they hurt us in many ways. Ability to solo, they remove alot of the things that are fun about rangers and assassins. (I hate to stand still and cast spell). If I end up like a static meele fighter, I can just quit and play wow or something. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am so frustrated, cause I have so much fun with me toons( got a 38 ranger, and 27 assassin). I would not play them if they were boring. I solo a lot for different reason, and I think choosing priest would my progress really slow..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do hope, that in the end SOE see that removing kiting, is not about balancing the game in any way. It is not about removing an exploit or arresting us for cheating. It is purely about ruining some of the (I think) most fun classes at least for me to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ibixat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mithremakor wrote:Blacken, have you ever seen a real bow?  I have but I have never seen a three foot arrow, that's a spear.  I'm a bow hunter in RL.  I shoot 28 inch arrows and that's dead average.  I could shoot something at arms length with full damage as well. <div></div><hr></blockquote>28 inches = arrow yes ---- 36 inches = spear? uh, no. I think you are both guilty of some exaggerations here on that front.  Generally speaking if the arrow can clear the bow between you and your target you are doing ok, you don't want impact before the arrow has left contact with the bowstring, that would be problematic.  Our minimum bow distance is really too big, being able to take 1 step back and fire would be good, but would still screw us on soloing, unless the range check is only implemented when we start firing and not checked when the timer is done as it is now. </span><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Hmm. I've never thought of us as a jack-of-all-trades kind of class. That's the rogues, IMO. We are the ranged DPS subclass in the scout archetype - we're pretty limited to doing only that. I don't ever think of myself as any kind of off-tank. Obviously I step up before the dude in robes, but that doesn't make me an off-tank, just the next unlucky guy in line. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I see our purpose as very focused - ranged damage - b/c we don't get much else. Nor do I really <EM>want </EM>much else. I like that purpose, I've been fulfilling it pretty well for about 25 levels or so, and I hope that purpose isn't changed. </P> <P>I know I'm in the minority on this, but I absolutely do NOT want a pet. Please, do not make me dependable on some poorly-implemented AI to play my class well. No matter what precedent we have in D&D or whatever. (Though if you want to talk precendents, I need only point to Tolkein - Aragorn and the Dunedain didn't have cute animal pals following them around like trained circus attractions.)</P> <P>I could see adding some additional minor abilities that might key off our wilderness lore - traps, snares, etc - maybe even an "herbal medicine" skill by which we can increase our health regen by a limited amount for a certain period of time. But I really hope they don't mess with the fundamental vision of our class or the role we occupy in groups. </P>

[Ird]

<DIV>Oh, I'm not in any way saying we should be jacks-of-all-trades, just my DnD nature coming out :-p (although rogues are the real varaible classes even there). And yah, by off-tanks I did mean the next guy. But I'd rather try to pull aggro if the tank falls and we stand a chance of winning rather than letting the wizard or templar of the group suddenly take a beating. And as for the pet, I'm not for it as it currently stands, but if they do impliment a "now you can only shoot if you're standing still" we'll either need very good root/snares, or we'll need something that can hold our aggro, atleast on and off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no offence at this, but if you're only 25, you'll see as you go that rangers do somewhat become more than pure damage. Debuffs and stuff (I'm not counting the ridiculus meaningless slows), are part of us, but it all goes back to the kiting that SoE hates so much. We is kiting, we needs kiting, we are only group fillers without kiting. Atleast if we end up off-tanks in a open field, we can kite the mob to death while the group wizards blast it away. I've had more than one occasino grouping with a wizard where i'll kite around and he/she'd lay off a dd every time i passed close by :-p</DIV>

[Fallnangel]

<DIV><FONT color=#99ff00 size=2><STRONG>I'd like to see us have better range with our arrows too.  Nothing more depressing than running with a pally, only to have them fire off one of their "blue snowballs" and hit a mob that I've been trying to hit and getting "too far away" messages:smileysad:.  </STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[Zholain]

<span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Irdal wrote: </font> <div><font size="2"> And no offence at this, but if you're only 25, you'll see as you go that rangers do somewhat become more than pure damage.</font> </div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">LOL...Jay's lvl 44, Irdal.....  He was referring to the fact that we can not really even classify ourselves as a 'ranged' warrior until level 20.  He's fully aware of the buffs/debuffs we get at the high end.  In my opinion, our 'utility', if that's what you want to call our buffs/debuffs, is trivial compared to some of the other classes.  We get some slashing/piercing/agility/defense debuffs that don't seem nearly as effective as others that I've seen.  I'm not complaining about them, because I do enough damage that anything further without assistance from one of the other classes would be overpowering. I don't think you'll see anything as complex as a pet for us in the update.  For that I am thankful.  More likely, you'll see our mitigation greatly inproved if we choose to wear medium armor, and our agility greatly improved if we choose to wear light(SOE has referenced this in tha past).  I don't see my role as that of utility, or as the jack-of-all-trades.  I am purely DPS.  If I use all my abilities wisely, then I can be exceptional at my job. I just think it's most likely that SOE will have found a much more simplistic approach to replace the loss of shoot-while-moving, rather than implement an entirely new concept.  I hope I haven't come across too strong.  If I have, please don't take that way. </font></span><div></div>

[Ird]

<DIV>Hehe good point. And no, it didnt come across strong. But i fgured, this thread started at what we'd like to see, so why not a pet that can do something? :-p</DIV> <DIV>(sry about the lvl mistake... i jsut recently started paying attention to the boards)</DIV>

[Zholain]

In that case welcome.  I think in general, the ranger board is probably the friendliest of all the EQ2 forums.  There have been a couple 'heated' discussions recently...but those are rare. The pet is not a bad idea at all.  It's just my personal preference to not have one.  But in the end, all I wish for is for all of us rangers to be able to solo as well as we could back before the agility modification.  Perhaps SOE will make agility more meaningful in the revamp.  Who knows? <div></div>

[Mirdo]

I'm obviously in favour of us being able to solo effectively, but like some others,  totally against pets as a way of doing this. Also. I don't believe we require any utility over and above what we have. I've found that the higher I levelled, the less skills like evac were used. As far as I can tell,  Rangers have always been a 'DPS class' - I want nothing more than to exercise extreme prejudice against any mob i come across. And yes, we do get some debuffs at higher levels, but as already stated, they are not nearly so effective as other classes. It's only my opinion, in a board full of opinions, but all I want to do is to be able to deal damage mainly with my bow and then some with my melee weps while the big bow skills refresh. I want to be joint top of the melee damage tree along with assassins (if I'm using poison, poison debuffs and a little common sense). That's it. I don't want much <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> While I respect the opinions of others about pets etc., if it ever comes down to it, i'll be in here having my nay vote counted and advocating weapon damage (even the hated melee) above all. I've seen SoE give people what they ask for too many times - it's like getting wishes from a Genie - they seldom turn out to be what you had in mind when you made your wish. I probably repeated a lot there but it's 02:00 here and I'm struggling <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Mirdo. <div></div>

[Teksun]

Pets? we don't need no stinking pets!! As an alternative, maybe a 'charm animal' like EQ1. It wouldn't be useful in a lot of zones, and when it broke/wore off you would get attacked. I would love a root. Even if short duration, long recast. All in all though, I am very happy with my ranger the way he is and hope I can say the same after the revamp... <div></div>

[Volkov]

<DIV> <P>I am just a young ranger, but to stop the kiting of epic and much higher level mobs, could the speeds of players and the mobs be scaled?  For instance, you can easily outrun a green mob, you keep even pace with a white, and a red will run you down?  Heroics get speed boosts and Epics are just ridiculously fast.  Rangers could then have effective roots/snares to tip the balance of this some, but not take things to the extreme.  Just an idea, this may already be the case to some degree, I have not been able to kite too much at my level, but I have read quite a bit on the forums.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Just a thought.</P></DIV>

[theorbell]

<P>Well it seems that some of the changes have gone live on Oggok as of this past weekend.  I was doing writs in LS when lo and behold, i could use my bow at short range.  The resulting dps was sickeningly sweet!  i couldn't get enough of how fast mobs were going down, then i realized how many arrows i was using /sigh.  Kiting was still possible too, but i wonder how long that will last or if there was some mistake in implementing what changes i did see.</P> <P>Anyone else notice changes on their servers?</P>

[Sporttst]

<DIV>Seems like I can kite a bit better. Heck,I even did it with close quarters arts yesterday. Couldn't believe it but it worked. As for pets I think they're fine and we should be able to get one if we wish. Wish the goofy bird we can already get did something worthwhile....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A side question: Does anyone use a 24 or similar slot box in place of a bag in the inventory list? I've got a 24 slot in place of one bag and it doesn't seem to affect my speed or ability to kite. If I go with two or more,it slows me down way too much. But one doesn't appear to be a problem. And it allows me to carry much more than usual with a bag. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                     Sporty</DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                     Level 32 Kerra Ranger</DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                     Guk</DIV>

[athitchcock]

<P>I pretty much only solo, which means I'm usually forced to kite a bit. It's frustrating to be fighting a blue solo mob, drop it to 40% with ranged CAs on the pull and die because I figured I could tank it the rest of the way (admittedly I have poor resists). The burst damage we do can be silly (triple shot with swipes and poison procs), but not being able to finish the job without running around is a bit weak.</P> <P>Also, I'm not totally up on current events, but I didn't see anyone say anything about ranged attacks working on heroic opportunities. That's something that's bugged me for a while. I like to stand back and launch arrows and it's a minor inconvenience to run in to melee range to complete or shift a HO. Of course if they added this and kept kiting, that would be very powerful for us.</P> <P>Sporttster, I carry a 24 slot bag I got as a quest reward (not sure which one) and three 16 slot boxes and two 12 slot bags, it's good to be an ogre. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But it's bad to die and be horribly encumbered.</P> <P>Gnaril<BR>37 Ogre Ranger<BR><Dynasty of Heroes><BR>Unrest Server</P>

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

<DIV><EM>(Though if you want to talk precendents, I need only point to Tolkein - Aragorn and the Dunedain didn't have cute animal pals following them around like trained circus attractions.)</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>This would of course be the same Aragorn who fought with a sword not a bow of course despite being a supposed master ranger so not a very good example. The Dunedain were also mountain fighters with a great reputation for commando-esque raids including hand to hand combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was in fact one of the reasons I was so disappointed that rangers go full missile essentially at higher levels as I want to play Aragorn dammit!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not bothered about the removal of kitting as I have always hated it. I do it because I have to but its tedious, irritating and often unusable as I do a lot of writs in dungeon areas. As long as they replace it with something that allows soloing then yay!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jay]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Zholain wrote: <P><SPAN><FONT size=2>LOL...Jay's lvl 44, Irdal.....  He was referring to the fact that we can not really even classify ourselves as a 'ranged' warrior until level 20.  He's fully aware of the buffs/debuffs we get at the high end.  In my opinion, our 'utility', if that's what you want to call our buffs/debuffs, is trivial compared to some of the other classes.  We get some slashing/piercing/agility/defense debuffs that don't seem nearly as effective as others that I've seen.  I'm not complaining about them, because I do enough damage that anything further without assistance from one of the other classes would be overpowering.<BR><BR>I don't think you'll see anything as complex as a pet for us in the update.  For that I am thankful.  More likely, you'll see our mitigation greatly inproved if we choose to wear medium armor, and our agility greatly improved if we choose to wear light(SOE has referenced this in tha past).  I don't see my role as that of utility, or as the jack-of-all-trades.  I am purely DPS.  If I use all my abilities wisely, then I can be exceptional at my job.</FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><Hugs Zho></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've said it before, I'll say it again - you're a blessing to have around. Nail hit firmly on head. (AKA "I agree with you as usual.") And thanks for defending my honor, dear.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'Cept you got one part wrong... I'm 45 now.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <dances> </DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lysanthir Ahmquissar wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>(Though if you want to talk precendents, I need only point to Tolkein - Aragorn and the Dunedain didn't have cute animal pals following them around like trained circus attractions.)</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>This would of course be the same Aragorn who fought with a sword not a bow of course despite being a supposed master ranger so not a very good example. The Dunedain were also mountain fighters with a great reputation for commando-esque raids including hand to hand combat. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think I said that they used bows and bows only, did I? Just that they didn't have pets (that I know of). If that point is incorrect, by all means, enlighten me. My 'example' was only meant as an informal allusion to a precedent in the concept of 'ranger.' Obviously, Tolkein's "ranger" and SOE's "ranger" are worlds apart.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Teksun]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Lysanthir Ahmquissar wrote: <div><em>(Though if you want to talk precendents, I need only point to Tolkein - Aragorn and the Dunedain didn't have cute animal pals following them around like trained circus attractions.)</em></div> <div><em></em> </div> <div>This would of course be the same Aragorn who fought with a sword not a bow of course despite being a supposed master ranger so not a very good example. The Dunedain were also mountain fighters with a great reputation for commando-esque raids including hand to hand combat. <hr> </div></blockquote>I don't think I said that they used bows and bows only, did I? Just that they didn't have pets (that I know of). If that point is incorrect, by all means, enlighten me. My 'example' was only meant as an informal allusion to a precedent in the concept of 'ranger.' Obviously, Tolkein's "ranger" and SOE's "ranger" are worlds apart.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Hehe Tolkiens ranger is unlike any other ranger in any fantasy book i've read or game I've played. To use his concept as a model for the game would be a little crazy.</span><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Wasn't it the original arcade Gauntlet where "Elf" was one of the four character classes? Two were occupations (warrior and wizard) and two were more like races (valkyrie and elf), IIRC. Yeah, I don't know what made me think of that either, other than the idea that Legolas is more like an EQ2 ranger than Aragorn.  ANYWAY... <un-derails thread></P> <P>I guess my desires for our class in the revamp can be summed up as follows:</P> <P>1. Don't cripple us as soloers; provide some mechanics by which we can field both melee and ranged CA damage if kiting is absolutely removed.</P> <P>2. Don't make us a pet-dependent class. (I think this is highly unlikely, fwiw.)</P> <P>3. Allow us to continue to fill our primary role (ranged DPS). </P> <P>4. Fix our broken skills, reassess spell upgrades, and perform some much-needed general maintenance.</P> <P>As Zholain said, I hope that the changes in the revamp will effectively simplify and streamline the classes and their roles, rather than completely changing them or cluttering the situation even further. At the end of the day, our class is distinguished by a collection of characteristics: our emphasis on bow arts, our high DPS, and our use of stealth and positional attacks. We're focused on a relatively simple purpose, and I don't expect that they will lose sight of that purpose or dramatically alter any of these characteristics. </P>

[Sporttst]

Ok....you mentioned six bags/boxes and there's only four slots. How you doin that??? Box inside a bag or something? I can carry only four.....

[Te]

<P>Oh jolly forget about the pet will you /tease;P</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway I can think of several things that would balance out the difficultys rangers have. But maybe I shouldnt mention them cuz soe will think they would overpower us anyway wich it wouldnt if they did it propper.</P> <P>As for raids and dps I must say that ranger dps are good on raids even if you compare to a assassin who usually end up overaggro anyway and die wich result in no dps.</P> <P>As for soloing I dont know much about other than casters are nasty and are to be avoided. Mainly cuz I dont solo much and tend to know wery little about that due to lack of experience.</P>

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

<P>He he I managed to cut off half my post. Teaches me not to cut and paste off word documents before I post!</P> <P>I agree Jay on your points and have no desperate desire to have a pet myself. I was just trying to point out that Aragorn may not have been a good example as Aragorn is dissimilar (?) to most rangers since. As usual I mixed that up. :smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[Huugr]

Many good things already said so i ll just add "new" stuff <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- To start with, the changes mentionned here will not prevent me to kite if i want to. It will just be longer, probably "only" twice as long which is not prohibiting. But they will wipe out a lot of the fun of playing a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- I don't see why kiting is such a bad thing. Kiting gives poor xp, poor cash and very poor drops. In eq1, it was a problem when one could make very nice exp and/or loot but it is not afaik the case here. Developping a bit, solo mob drop more sellables than group ones. Treasured loot is at best broker trash past 40. Metal chest drop rate is so low that it is not really worth to kite. I talk about named and group encouter kiting, not multi-groups encounters. For these, i don't think rangers are efficient at it. I didn t extensively tried but what i've experienced is that at some point the encounter will just warp on me and ignore most damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If things are changed in the way said in this thread, i don't see what make the ranger a class different from others. We will be assassins with bows or wizards with daggers or something along those line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- I hope devs are aware that it is a pain to use CA not allowing movement atm if you are ment to move at all. I mean that with the changes mentionned i will still have to position myself around as targets die or move along with the tank. So i will have to move, freeze, wait that the server or whatever acknowledge that i stopped then start my CAs ... from what i ve seen the time required for the stopped acknowledgement is VERY long compared to the pace of eq2 fights. Already in eq1 it was ridiculous how you were getting interrupts because of movement and the fights were much longer. This is for me the big thing to be afraid of if they actually go that way. Btw this is not as big an issue for "some" other classes like wizard as they do not have to constantly reposition themselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fallnangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> theorbell wrote:<BR> <P>Well it seems that some of the changes have gone live on Oggok as of this past weekend.  I was doing writs in LS when lo and behold, i could use my bow at short range.  The resulting dps was sickeningly sweet!  i couldn't get enough of how fast mobs were going down, then i realized how many arrows i was using /sigh.  Kiting was still possible too, but i wonder how long that will last or if there was some mistake in implementing what changes i did see.</P> <P>Anyone else notice changes on their servers?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#99ff00>I thought I was imagining it, but you are right...I seem to be able to use my bow (a longbow) at short range as well.  </FONT><BR>

[draconetti]

not to be a pain guys but any chance of some in depth info from anyone on test at high-lvl? seems the assasin board has an analysis of the changes running (mainly looking at ca changes) save us all speculating any longer <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Sirlutt]

sure thing soon as sony gets off their butts and allows a one time character copy to test.. which should have happened as part of testing the revamp. <div></div>

[Bromious]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>sure thing soon as sony gets off their butts and allows a one time character copy to test.. which should have happened as part of testing the revamp.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree 100%</P> <P> </P> <P>As a casual player I don't have time to level another toon to level 50 on test. Not to mention the hell of leveling the same freaking class to 50. I can guarantee if they ever did a "selective" copy to test they would be innundated with people wanting to go test the game. Heck even if they offered copy to the top 50 of each class on each server not everyone would want to go but they would get enough to fill the server. </P>

[jordaann]

They have responded to this numerous time.  For reason they have already shared character will not be copied over to test with exceptions being for specific tests.  The abscence of a char copy should not be an issue with having hi level rangers familar with the new changes informing us.  The people involved in the DOF beta have had the NDA lifted as far as the combat revamp goes and should be able to provide plenty of info. <div></div>

[Bromious]

<DIV>Regardless of whether they've responded numerous times, it's still something I'd like to see happen. Will it? Obviously not at this point. Even with the nda lifted it's obvious that we won't see much info on the changes. There has been a little bit of info on the Ranger changes but for the most part I've gotten the mojority of the info on changes from tthe other scout boards. There just doesn't seem to be many Rangers willing to post on what they've experienced in beta/test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and give us a nice detailed post on what's up. Sony just needs to copy my toon to test and I'll do it :smileywink: .</DIV>

[Gailstryd]

I'll try to get more info posted and out there it is just hard to colaberate and thoroughly present all the info I would love to share from playing in beta.  That and most posts with all the new revamp info in other forums is a bunch of gloom and doom about how bad such and such class has it.  Once you get past the fact that Rangers have lost the ability to kite, we really came out in good shape the other side of revamp.  Our class just needs some bug fixes and a little tweaking.

[KnightOfTheWo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gailstryder wrote:<div></div>I'll try to get more info posted and out there it is just hard to colaberate and thoroughly present all the info I would love to share from playing in beta.  That and most posts with all the new revamp info in other forums is a bunch of gloom and doom about how bad such and such class has it.  Once you get past the fact that Rangers have lost the ability to kite, we really came out in good shape the other side of revamp.  Our class just needs some bug fixes and a little tweaking.<hr></blockquote>That's great news, at first I was all in a panic about the loss of kiting...but then I realized that there's no reason to panic, it will require us to improvise, adapt and overcome...which is of course what Rangers do. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> Hopefully the loss of kiting will be compensated with the new CAs, etc. Definitely looking forward to your impressions/analysis!</span><div></div>