Stacking multiple damage poisons??

[Jay]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the Guide to Kiting thread, SteathMode suggests that you can indeed stack multiple damage poisons. To my knowledge, this has been examined and re-examined, and the recurring conclusion is that stacked poisons do <STRONG>not</STRONG> add additional chances to proc on a given attack, but only work sequentially - such that when the first application runs out, the second begins taking effect. Has anyone evidence to the contrary? Do we have any reason to believe this has changed?</DIV>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>I do stack poisons and they will stack a target, just not on the same hit (or maybe they will). I say the latter because of a recent encounter in BB. I stacked the poisons, and when it went to hit a named enemy in the mines area, it said resisted 4x...My only conclusion is that you can stack them and they each try each turn....in battles previous to this encounter, I would battle foes (discovered this accidentally in SV yesterday) with stacked poisons and notice 4 damage indicators going off. On successive rounds when I wasn't even swinging (about every 6 seconds like the timers on the poisons DOT), I noticed the opponent taking ORANGE damage multiple times (at least two-three). I assume these are the poisons as I was not attacking when the damages occurred.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will do further testing and report back with my findings (complete with screenies). If I weren't so lazy I'd demo it with fraps.</DIV>

[Flust]

<DIV>Thast interesting.  Last time I ran that test was awhile ago and it came up with the first poison ran out then the second poison kicked in.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess its time to go grab a few npc poisons and run some more tests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JaggNomr]

<DIV>It is possible that when you saw the orange damage show up, it could have been from a riposte...From, my personal experiment, the poisons don't stack and kick in when the other runs out....The resist X4 could have come from a multiple attack.</DIV>

[Jay]

<FONT size=2>I may have to examine this myself tonight. The problem is, I don't know how to conclusively prove that multiple poison applications are directly correlated to specific sources of damage. Your combat log only says "YOUR Poison hits <enemy> for <damage amount>" (or at least that's the case last I checked), it doesn't say "Your Irrepressisible Vexation hits <enemy> for <damage amount>." But I have two different vials of damage poisons (the Vexation and Rancorous Affliction), so I'll try and apply them both and see what there is to see. I'll admit I'm skeptical - no disrespect intended, StealthMode, just would be surprised if this has changed. The results we saw from the fairly exhaustive tests that Erasmus, Shader, and others ran seemed conclusive, at least to this particular layman. But I'm not a number-cruncher and I'm not fluent in math... if I shoot stuff and it dies, I'm usually happy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>

[conmcb]

Ok a dumb question probably but how does one stack 5 poisons when you have two activatable spots??????? :confused:

[Alluna E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> conmcb25 wrote:<BR>Ok a dumb question probably but how does one stack 5 poisons when you have two activatable spots??????? :confused: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Use the poison, replace it in activable slot and use it, replace with a third poision and click use, etc.</DIV>

[Jay]

<DIV>I assume you drop the bottle in the slot, click Use, switch out the next bottle, click Use, etc. You don't need to have it equipped to continue receiving the benefit, you just need the vial in an equip slot for the initial application. But I've never bothered applying more than one damage poison at a time, so I could be wrong. </DIV>

[Bayler_x]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>I may have to examine this myself tonight. The problem is, I don't know how to conclusively prove that multiple poison applications are directly correlated to specific sources of damage. Your combat log only says "YOUR Poison hits for " (or at least that's the case last I checked), it doesn't say "Your Irrepressisible Vexation hits for ." But I have two different vials of damage poisons (the Vexation and Rancorous Affliction), so I'll try and apply them both and see what there is to see. I'll admit I'm skeptical - no disrespect intended, StealthMode, just would be surprised if this has changed. The results we saw from the fairly exhaustive tests that Erasmus, Shader, and others ran seemed conclusive, at least to this particular layman. But I'm not a number-cruncher and I'm not fluent in math... if I shoot stuff and it dies, I'm usually happy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The behavior that's been demonstrated in the past is that while you can apply multiple damage poisons, only one of them is active at a time.  Poison #1 will proc, and the rest won't, until #1 wears off.  Then #2 will go proc until it wears off, etc.</P> <P>The easiest way to test if that's happening is to apply several poisons, and watch the times at which they wear off.  Lange's Formula dictates that a player-made poison should last for right around 40 minutes of nonstop autoattack, assuming no combat arts are used.  (NPC poisons should last half that, since they have half as many procs.)  In real fighting, it might be more like 30 minutes or 60, depending on the type of fighting.  The key factor though is that if they're used serially, like people have shown before, you'll see the first one wearing off after some long period of time, and then the next after roughly the same length of time, and so on.  On the other hand, if they all have a chance to proc, they'll all wear off at roughly the same time.</P> <P>Another test would involve looking closely at your log files.  Apply two oposite damage poisons: ideally one very-large-DD and one very-small-DD.  If I'm remembering correctly, when a poison procs it always shows two lines in the log: first the DD amount, and second the first tick amount (even though it happens instantly).  If your logs always show low-then-high, or always high-then-low, then only one of the poisons has a chance to proc.  On the other hand, if sometimes you see low-then-high and sometimes high-then-low, that suggested that either can proc.</P> <P>A third test would involve looking at proc percentages from a speciallized parser (like the one Rijacki and I used for <A href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/tier4poison.html" target=_blank>her poison tests</A>), but the results are pretty difficult to interpret in cases like that.</P></DIV>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>I tested this most of the afternoon. Heres what I found out....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can only double stack. Anything past two and it doesn't see it I dont think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I can definitely verify two poisons can hit at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen it in the message window, I hit two poison damage messages. The other three I guess are a waste, I will try to do more testing this evening to see if their is any way to stack the other poisons up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing to note about stacking 5....After a few encounters (like 1-2) some poisons will wear out. I found this out today in testing. I swapped out my 2-3 poisons for my 4-5 poions and the first poison I applied wore off within 5 minutes (12 hour duration normally). So possibly there is a check in there somewhere that will attempt to kill multiple poison applications. I have only seen this occur ONCE with FIVE poisons loaded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Screenie below of two poisons doing damage at the same time....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warning this image is at a large resolution, it will probably expand the tables of this thread dramatically...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://stealthmode.homestead.com/files/EQ2_000048.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see although I had 5 poisons loaded, only two were causing any damage...</DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 PM</span>

[Flust]

Stealthmode, all that looks like is one initial proc.  When poisons go off, they do a DD and the first round of DoT dmg.  You will always get 2 hits from a poison intial.  Obviously debuffs poisons and a couple of the rare poisons are different.   But on a 100 count npc poison or a 200 player made poison, the intial proc will alwasy do 2 hits, one DD and one DoT dmg.  It is not two different poisons going off.  It appears you had a poison proc off of that last hit and you were using a low DD/High DoT dmg poison.  

[Bayler_x]

That doesn't show two poisons hitting at once.  It's normal, with only one poison applied, for a proc to generate two damage lines in a row.  The first is the DD portion of the poison, and the second is an over-time tick (even though no time has elapsed). <div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>These were dots, the 6 second timer ones. If you notice this was after the battle. Those last two entries about poison were not the initial damage, but the 6s dots. About 24 seconds after the poisons initially hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will try to document this better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll turn /log on and parse it after some adventuring later this evening. I should have just fraps'd it, that way you could see that the initial DD was TWO seperate entries, while the recurring was also TWO seperate entries. Hopefully when I parse the logs later it will help shed some light on the subject....</DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 PM</span>

[Flust]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV>These were dots, the 6 second timer ones. If you notice this was after the battle. Those last two entries about poison were not the initial damage, but the 6s dots. About 24 seconds after the poisons initially hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will try to document this better.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I doubt it.   Mainly due to all the testing that went on right after realease.  Here are a couple suggestions for your next test.  Only use two dmg poisons this time.  Use ones that are not close in dmg, on both DD and DoT side.  As well, please expand your melee combat window to help show more of the log.  Might be able to catch the intial proc on each that way.  Lastly, please keep an examine window open on both, so we can see the stats of the poisons.

[Sollum]

Why can't the game makers include in the games manual explanations as to what can and can't be done. Someone there in software writing land knows the answer to these questions and must me sat there reading these forums with a smirk on his face whilst we all struggle to find out as to what is supose to be happening.

[MrNamehasalreadybeentaken]

<DIV>then the game wouldn't be any fun... i love figuring stuff out and how it works, it would be foolish to explain EVERY point of this game, </DIV>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Well....we could just decompile the engine and figure it out real easily....but we'd get in trouble with SOE. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be nice of them to provide better documentation. So that we don't have to waste our time doing tests on things that should already be documented. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, when someone does decompile the engine and someone gets the idea to make a similar game....well, what can I say, it all started because someone wanted a better understanding of the game.</DIV>

[conmcb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alluna EQ2 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> conmcb25 wrote:<BR>Ok a dumb question probably but how does one stack 5 poisons when you have two activatable spots??????? :confused: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Use the poison, replace it in activable slot and use it, replace with a third poision and click use, etc.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>Duh, do I feel stupid now :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Tried it last night and it worked like a charm, thanks for clearing that up for me. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Just goes to show ya you can learn something new everyday.</P> <P>Now if we could only figure out if the debuffs stack with the poison :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bayler_x]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well....we could just decompile the engine and figure it out real easily....but we'd get in trouble with SOE. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be nice of them to provide better documentation. So that we don't have to waste our time doing tests on things that should already be documented. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, when someone does decompile the engine and someone gets the idea to make a similar game....well, what can I say, it all started because someone wanted a better understanding of the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very little of the game's mechanics take place on the player's computer; nearly all of it, wisely, is done on the server.  For the most part, the player's computer only deals with movement/position, and user-interface.</P> <P>If, indeed, details like damage amounts were dictated by the player's computer, hackers would cripple the game by writing cheats that always hit, and always hit for 100,000 points of damage.  You see that sort of thing in peer-to-peer networked games, but usually server-driven games are smarter these days.  (Most of the hacks or exploits you see in server-based games involve things that the client needs to have control or knowlege of, like boosting the player's movement speed, or displaying what's nearby that the player might potentially see.)</P>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>....it can be done. The server farms themselves aren't as secure as people think. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well....little thing called a packet sniffer...I've seen other games server farms hacked that have standalone servers seperate from a client. Example: Client Alpha logs into the game...his packet sniffer is on, and he now has the ips of the servers as well as actual packet data. Hacker/client Alpha runs a security scan on the network for vulnerabilities (easily obtained trialware can do this). Hacker/client Alpha now modifies a malformed packet that exploits vulnerabilities in ANY portion of the servers software (operating system, ftp, etc.). Hacker/Client Alpha now has root access to the server. Client a downloads or remote decompiles at his/her convienence. Now the tricky part here is the hacker/client can and usually will infect another system (hijack it with worms, malformed packets, etc.) and use that system (as well as others) to do their dirty work, leaving a very difficult trail to backtrace. And making other people look like the culprits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only reason I posted about it is because even the most inexperienced "hacker" has access to these tools/knowledge. And well to be honest, I don't think Sonys network is as secure as people think.</DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Flust]

<P>I have been running tests today.</P> <P>I have been using Sting of the Soulreaver.  Low DD/High DoT dmg. Listed damg is. Inflict 150, decrease 150 every 6 secs and inflict 146.   </P> <P>I also have had Rancorous Affliction on.  A Very low DD/Very High DoT dmg poison.  Listed dmg  Inflict 133, decrease by 133 every 6 secs, inflict 50 dmg.</P> <P>So far, with just using Bow attcks as openers, since they have the highest proc rates. Then just auto melee attack on Field frights in RV.   My Sting of the Soulreaver has been the only poison procing.  It is also the first one I applied.  Rancorous has yet to proc.</P>

[Sotaudi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sollum wrote:<BR> Why can't the game makers include in the games manual explanations as to what can and can't be done. Someone there in software writing land knows the answer to these questions and must me sat there reading these forums with a smirk on his face whilst we all struggle to find out as to what is supose to be happening.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>One reason is that MMOs constantly change.  When I first bought SWG shortly after release, I also bought the "Official Prima Guide."  Even a couple of weeks after release, the guide had information that had little to do with reality in the game.  It contained information about things that had been planned or were actually in Beta, but had undergone major changes between the time the guide was written and game release.  It is probably not worth the cost of trying to keep such information up to date.  In the end, the majority of the gaming population just wants it to work, and only a minority of the population cares enough about that much detail.  Add to that the fact that the more information you provide, the bigger the edge you give your competitors in designing competing systems and the easier you make it for people to find weaknesses and exploit them, and I would say that a cost to benefit analysis would probably show that it is just not worth doing.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>StealthM0de wrote:<div></div> <div>These were dots, the 6 second timer ones. If you notice this was after the battle. Those last two entries about poison were not the initial damage, but the 6s dots. About 24 seconds after the poisons initially hit.</div> <div> </div> <div>I will try to document this better.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'll turn /log on and parse it after some adventuring later this evening. I should have just fraps'd it, that way you could see that the initial DD was TWO seperate entries, while the recurring was also TWO seperate entries. Hopefully when I parse the logs later it will help shed some light on the subject....</div><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class="date_text">05-25-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> If it was after the battle, then how come the next line -after- the 2 poison listings was the sabertooth neophyte being interrupted.  You can't interrupt something that's dead. The 5 NPC purchasable poisons and their crafted counterparts have a very specific way they work:      Direct damage hit (initial amount very small to very large, listed in the details at the bottom of the examine)      Direct damage hit (the second direct damage amount also listed in the details at the bottom of the examine)      6 sec delay, then damage over time every 6 seconds. The difference between the NPC bought, common crafted, and rare crafted is in the initial direct damage amount. Some have noticed (and this would be in keeping with all other spells and overwrites) that if there is another proc before the dot runs out, the previous dot is negated, or rather is over written by the same spell being applied to the target. As for damage and debuffs stacking.  You can stack one debuff and one damage and have both active and procing at the same time. Doing tests in T2 (my ranger-to-be is 16), I tried out the mez potion and had a damage potion applied at the same time.  The mez potion (though with very few procs) works GREAT.  The bear I shot just stood there, at range and moaned and groaned from the poison, which proc'ed at the exact same time (lucky me) while I just watched doing nothing at a distance.  The poison procs did not break that mez.  The bear was nearly dead when it reached me, the poison having had a chance to entirely run its course.  I tried again.  I got another bear to stand still at a distance.  This time I was trying to see what would break the mez or if it stayed for full duration.  I shot arrows.  I hit with both arrows and poison (I was having a good day).  I did see how a new application of poison overwrites the first.  I also killed the bear before it ever reached me.  I used the mez to split targets in group encounters that I was soloing.  It worked like a charm (when it would proc *laugh* or I didn't forget to reapply after it had expended its procs *laughes more*).  Hit one with the mez and poison (those real lucky shots), switch to the other running at me to melee it, and by the time I had the first dead, the other would be on me (about 1/2 though the fight the mez would wear off) but it would already be at least 1/4 down from the damage poison. It is harder to exactly "see" the other types of debuff poisons proc'ing, but with Shader's comparative damage tests in T4, the difference in damage between when the poison debuff was applied and when it wasn't truly shows how much it lends to the poisoning power.</span><div></div>

[Rijacki]

One last thing.... one of the reasons it is so devasting to poisons users that the large direct damage with small damage over time and very large direct damage with very small damage over time being incorrect in details and actual damage to their damage types is that it lessens the ability of the poison user to maximise his damage if he is relying on the initial damage burst for the majority of the poison damage (as most would be). As an alchemist, I want this FIXED for you, the poison users. <div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Rijacki I meant that the screenshot was taken after the battle. I scrolled up on the message window afterwards. Sorry for the miscommunication.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haven't played since my previous post waiting for the launchpad.exe_delta file to finish (it is moving so slow on the scanning for updates window).</DIV>

[Bayler_x]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV>....it can be done. The server farms themselves aren't as secure as people think. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well....little thing called a packet sniffer...I've seen other games server farms hacked that have standalone servers seperate from a client. Example: Client Alpha logs into the game...his packet sniffer is on, and he now has the ips of the servers as well as actual packet data. Hacker/client Alpha runs a security scan on the network for vulnerabilities (easily obtained trialware can do this). Hacker/client Alpha now modifies a malformed packet that exploits vulnerabilities in ANY portion of the servers software (operating system, ftp, etc.). Hacker/Client Alpha now has root access to the server. Client a downloads or remote decompiles at his/her convienence. Now the tricky part here is the hacker/client can and usually will infect another system (hijack it with worms, malformed packets, etc.) and use that system (as well as others) to do their dirty work, leaving a very difficult trail to backtrace. And making other people look like the culprits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only reason I posted about it is because even the most inexperienced "hacker" has access to these tools/knowledge. And well to be honest, I don't think Sonys network is as secure as people think.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <SPAN class=date_text>05-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, I suppose it's possible that you could find a vulnerability in SOE's network: a network that is the lifeblood of a multimillion-dollar-per-month revenue stream; a network that is responsible for more than 1/3 of the Internet traffic in the city of San Diego; a network that only needs to expose a single application on a narrow range of ports that they can change at whim using a proprietary protocol.  Yeah, your freeware programs might find a way in for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's certainly possible that you could reverse-engineer the server executables.  It would take some time, of course: machine code for several multithreaded networked applications, optimized by the complier, written in heavily-templated C++ using smart-pointers, where all of the strings have been internationallized, and relying on an insane volume of data from hundreds of files and database tables.  It's... possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you could commit these federal felonies (arguably acts of terrorism in the current political climate), for the sole purpose of determining whether multiple poisons actually work together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, you could just type /log and figure it out from there.  Either way is fine.</DIV>

[Sotaudi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR>One last thing.... one of the reasons it is so devasting to poisons users that the large direct damage with small damage over time and very large direct damage with very small damage over time being incorrect in details and actual damage to their damage types is that it lessens the ability of the poison user to maximise his damage if he is relying on the initial damage burst for the majority of the poison damage (as most would be).<BR><BR>As an alchemist, I want this FIXED for you, the poison users.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I appreciate your concern, and thank you.  However, I am not quite sure what you are saying here, Rijacki.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you explain the problem you are concerned about a little differently?</DIV>

[Jay]

<P><FONT size=2>Yeah, that one left me pretty dizzy too. I stopped trying after the second attempt. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>But at this point, given the responses here, I'm going to continue using one damage poison at a time, per business as usual. If the only evidence that even two poisons are working at once is those two lines in StealthMode's log (which we routinely see from DD / first DoT), it's a shaky case. Just wanted to confirm that my assumptions are still correct here, thanks to all for the information. </FONT></P>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>@Bayler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No actually I never said "I" would so please do not infer nor insinuate that I would.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, felonies don't matter to hackers, most are never caught.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, if it were hacked, I am sure they would be going for something other then stats/information. More probably credit card info, and the game engine itself preferably in a pre-compiled stage, more valuable to the individual as then they could solicit the engines "secrets" to other software developers. While a major crime, unless someone knew they were doing it from someone elses computers (very hard to track) all trails would not point to them (IP redirect/spoofing).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, the trialware I specifically refer to is by no means freeware. It is a $1,000 licensed professional network vulnerability scanner with a 15 day fully functional free trial. The one we use at work to probe our customers networks is Retina by EEye Digital Security. This one program doesnt matter what port you switch to, will track any open ports and what programs are running on them. As well as spit a report out on any known vulnerabilities (HINT SONY HINT) on the network. It will mine the network for any unprotected user login accounts (which I hate to say it but I bet Sony uses microsoft and everyone knows about the holes in microsofts products)...saving a lot of time with the malformed packets. Then there is Iris also by EEye Digital Security and available in the same trial time period. That is a packet sniffer to the nth, the absolute best one on the market today, also very expensive to purchase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The scary part is, recently it was discovered someone found a way to crack both trial versions (EEye is working on the issue now). So expect these two awesome pieces of network security testing to go mainstream to most hacking groups soon (including ones which play eq2). The fallout could be catastrophic. Many companies are starting to report their credit card info databases are getting hacked. Wasn't it less then a month ago one company said 400+ of its customers credit card numbers were hacked out of their system...and they were another multi-million dollar merchant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a network security consultant in my civilian capacity, and am well versed in the how-tos and the realistic possibilities of network vulnerabilities. Every company has them believe it or not. Even multi-million dollar giants like SOE...And far as San Diegos bandwidth, you have no idea how much bandwidth San Diego Naval Base has do you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@ Jay Far as me only providing one ss so far, sorry I got a real life. Said I'd check it out as I got the time...</DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Flust]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sotaudi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR>One last thing.... one of the reasons it is so devasting to poisons users that the large direct damage with small damage over time and very large direct damage with very small damage over time being incorrect in details and actual damage to their damage types is that it lessens the ability of the poison user to maximise his damage if he is relying on the initial damage burst for the majority of the poison damage (as most would be).<BR><BR>As an alchemist, I want this FIXED for you, the poison users.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I appreciate your concern, and thank you.  However, I am not quite sure what you are saying here, Rijacki.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you explain the problem you are concerned about a little differently?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think she is refering to the resist checks on poisons.   Before the DoT resist check, the gap between High DD/Low DoT and Low DD/High DoT dmg was considerable.  Since, the intial DD portion had to go through the resist check, where as the DoT dmg never did.  It would hit for full everytime.  That isn't an issue anymore, since the DoT resist change several weeks ago.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still dissappointed that Rijacki didn't make her Ranger a Gnome.:smileytongue:</DIV>

[Jay]

<DIV>Holy off-topic posts, yeesh. Okay, we realize you're a smart network guy, but the discussion was about your claims regarding poison use in EQ2. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Yeah Jay, I got way off topic there sorry. Far as the poison thing, I am still testing for all intents and purposes, it appears that at least two of the poisons are working at the same time. I'll try collecting more info on this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, /log....I had it on, zoned into the hidden meeting (thinking it was still on to log the DD and Dots) and guess what? Unless I type /log in each zone I go into...it doesn't record. Least thats what it did last night...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1117084923)[Thu May 26 01:22:03 2005] Logging to 'logs/Antonia Bayle/eq2log_Stealthmode.txt' is now *ON*<BR>(1117084963)[Thu May 26 01:22:43 2005] aNPC 12220 Shieldsmith Azima Kaddor:Shieldsmith Azima Kaddor/a says,"Go on take a look at the stock.  You'll never beat this price in the city I guarantee it!"<BR>(1117084973)[Thu May 26 01:22:53 2005] You begin to focus upon your elven reflexes.<BR>(1117084974)[Thu May 26 01:22:54 2005] You have entered a Discreet Meeting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats it, other then that my log is empty...seems when I zone in to a new place the log turns off automatically. Anyone know of a way to stop this?</DIV>

[Langel]

<div></div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=5395" target="_blank">I have tested this.</a> You CAN stack a "debuff" poison (20% chance to proc, 80 procs) and a "damage" poison (25% chance to proc, 200 procs).  I'm starting to think, though, that it may actually be possible to stack <i>three </i>poisons. I started asking myself WHY these poisons were stacking and I think it has to do with the % chance to proc. I suspect that 15%, 20% and 25% chance to proc poisons will ALL stack. If I'm right, what that means from a practical / balance point of view is actually pretty cool. We would be able to have three poisons up: 1. A base damage poison (25% chance to proc, 200 procs) 2. A mitigation debuff poison (20% chance to proc, 80 procs) 3. A stat debuff/stifle/slow/etc poison (15% chance to proc, 4+ procs - variable) Obviously, with the lower number of total procs, not everyone will want to use the third type at all times but it does give us a tiny boost when fighting named mobs, etc.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Langeloc on <span class=date_text>05-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[Bayler_x]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, /log....I had it on, zoned into the hidden meeting (thinking it was still on to log the DD and Dots) and guess what? Unless I type /log in each zone I go into...it doesn't record. Least thats what it did last night...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats it, other then that my log is empty...seems when I zone in to a new place the log turns off automatically. Anyone know of a way to stop this?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Try checking both in /logs and /logs/Antonia Bayle.  It puts files in both places sometimes.  (I normally leave game logging all the time, and it usually puts the file in /logs.  I think it only puts them in /logs/Antonia Bayle when I explicitly turn them on or off.  Perhaps zoning is when it switches over from one to the other, or maybe zoning causes you to lose part of your logs altogether?  I'm not sure of the details.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My apologies, too, for the off-topic debate.</DIV>

[Flust]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langeloc wrote:<BR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=5395" target=_blank>I have tested this.</A> You CAN stack a "debuff" poison (20% chance to proc, 80 procs) and a "damage" poison (25% chance to proc, 200 procs).<BR><BR> I'm starting to think, though, that it may actually be possible to stack <I>three </I>poisons.<BR><BR>I started asking myself WHY these poisons were stacking and I think it has to do with the % chance to proc. I suspect that 15%, 20% and 25% chance to proc poisons will ALL stack.<BR><BR>If I'm right, what that means from a practical / balance point of view is actually pretty cool.<BR><BR>We would be able to have three poisons up:<BR>1. A base damage poison (25% chance to proc, 200 procs)<BR>2. A mitigation debuff poison (20% chance to proc, 80 procs)<BR>3. A stat debuff/stifle/slow/etc poison (15% chance to proc, 4+ procs - variable)<BR><BR>Obviously, with the lower number of total procs, not everyone will want to use the third type at all times but it does give us a tiny boost when fighting named mobs, etc. <P>Message Edited by Langeloc on <SPAN class=date_text>05-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:45 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The debuff stacking is known.  I mainly use them for raids.  I saw a post on the alch's board about the idea that different proc rates stack.  There are some rare 4 charge dmg poisons that have a different proc rate than the 200 charge ones.  I haven't had a chance to test that out, since I really don't feel like paying 30g for 4 procs.  </P> <P>As for the normal DD/DoT poisons, I have yet to see any procs off of both while they were both active.   been testing is all day.<BR></P>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>YOUR Open Shot hits a Giantslayer tracker for 37 points of piercing damage.<BR>(111714562<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu May 26 18:13:48 2005] YOUR poison hits a Giantslayer tracker for 52 points of poison damage.<BR>(111714562<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu May 26 18:13:48 2005] YOUR poison hits a Giantslayer tracker for 9 points of poison damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had all 5 poisons loaded. This is only ONE that hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wrote down all the DD and DoTs of the poisons and the only one that actually did anything was the first one I loaded (caress of the phantom).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poison+dd+dot...</DIV> <DIV>Caress of the phantom 54, 9, 8/6 </DIV> <DIV>Acidic Massage 45, 15, 13/6</DIV> <DIV>Crypt Sludge 33, 8, 30/6</DIV> <DIV>Abrasive Goo 22, 13, 12/6</DIV> <DIV>Blight of the Eventide 25, 20, 23/6</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All DMG poisons. Only the first one I loaded was doing anything (Caress).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I was so wrong its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Far as these buff poisons. I can only use tier 2 poisons atm. Where would I find these stat/buff poisons? I am interested because I want to try them out, but I don't know where to get them. Also, I was using Caress, but I am noticing it does relatively no damage on the DoT and thats where I think I am messing up. Its a nice initial power hit (especially in combo with the sneak attacks 120+ dmg so far max. on initial hit), but I think I want something thats going to do the most recurring damage (54 hp intitially is nice. but only 9hp every rd thereafter is kinda weak). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Out of all the poisons above that I can use (at least till I can access tier 3 poisons) would you say Crypt Sludge would be the best well rounded poison for DD and DoT? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or what would you recommend?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When does one get access sufficient enough to get these buff, etc. poisons? I haven't seen  any that I can use yet (to my knowledge) and I have been to the poison shop in SQ. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What level does one gain access to higher level poisons?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, I apologize for getting everyones hopes up. But it got us testing again, and we found out that some poisons can get stacked. Just not DMG ones with its own kind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Flust]

<P>No worries Stealthmode.  I wish you were right, thats why I went out and did the testing again. </P> <P>The mitigation, Mez, Stifle, etc poisons are player crafted.   Some are rare and some are common.  I know, my favorite the poison/disease mitigation debuff is a common one.   Most Alchs have stocks of rare by products which is what is used to make those rare poisons.  I only pay 5g for my t5 rare poisons, whichn't isn't to bad since common t5 poisons go for 1-2g on my server. </P> <P>You get access to new poisons every 10 lvls.  At 20, you will be able to use t3, 30 t4, and at 40 t5.   For now, its probally best to stick with vendor made.  Not sure if this is your first char or not.  If it is, its better to save your money and buy vendor poisons.  The difference isn't that much at the lower lvls between PC and vendor.   I didn't switch over to player made until the late 20s.  By your 30s, you should have switched already, the differnce is noticable. </P> <P>As for which to go with.  Personally I prefer the Very low DD/Very high Dot ones.  I like to kite and those are the best for kiting.   In groups, I usually get a poison hit off of Hidden as an opener, so a full bodied Dot is great for that.  It depends on yoru style.  With my group sequence, its probally better for me to go with a High DD/low Dot, since I use my bow shots at the end.  But, my solo sequence is better with the opposite.  It really depends on your game play.  Either way, I think going to one of the extremes of the poison dmg is the best. </P>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Thanks for the info fluster. Yes this is my first character for the game ever. I love rangers. Its pretty much all I ever played in PnP D&D too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Far as money, not a problem, fortunately I found some rather nice rares in the first levels after trial of the isle (bronze, silver, blackened iron, etc.). And on the Antonio Bayle server these rares go for 10-20gp per. I have almost 1pp at present, still in my 1 room flat in Willow Wood, moving soon. Got my house pet, getting my travelling pet at 20 in Eldarr Grove. After that moving into a 2 room flat in NQ, then I should have around 50-60gp left. Do you think I would be able to pick up decent tier 2/3 poisons for a few gp?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll solicit some alchemists and see what they say their fee would be. Although I don't think tier2 offers anything but DMG poisons. Have to check on that. Although would be interesting if I could find custom tier2 DMG poisons that had better DD and DoT over the merchant ones for my tier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Update: Just made a post in my home servers marketplace forum. Hopefully I'll find a good alchemist and get me some good juice to coat my blades and arrows with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any alchemists are browsing this forum from Antonio Bayle server, please check out the marketplace forum. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 PM</span>

[Flust]

<P>Thats good you are set on money.  Way ahead of where I was at yoru lvl hehe.</P> <P>For prices, I don't think it should be that much.  Probally more in the range of 30-50s per for t2/3.   Also, do a LFW search, you might get lucky and find an alch that is willing to help you out or find one that is lvling up and is in your tier range.   Also doesn't hurt to join the crafters chat and try and find some alchs that way or atleast get some pricing info from them.  Thast how I found my armorsmith.  </P> <P>Here is a good page with the poisons and potions listed by tier and what they do.</P> <P><A href="http://home.earthlink.net/~shader_eq2/potions.html" target=_blank>http://home.earthlink.net/~shader_eq2/potions.html</A></P>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Ty for that list. I was looking for an alchemists list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now what would stop me from attempting to make these myself other then the increased cost in fuel (since I chose outfitter instead of alchemist)?</DIV>

[Flust]

You can't make final products of other crafter classes.  You can only make sub components.  So, if youwanted to make them yourself, you would have to lvl up an Alt in Alch.

[Zholain]

<font size="2">I may be stating the obvious, but a good way to make friends with an alchemist is to harvest the necessary raw materials and work out long-term trade agreement with the alchy.  This is what I did, and it worked out very well.  You may eventually get to the point where the alchy will make the poisons for you at no charge.  You will undoubtedly find raws for other potions and stuff that you don't care all that much about.  Give 'em to the alchemist.  S/he benefits...you benefit...can be a great arrangement.  If the alchy's a hard-core crafter, s/he will also have friends in the tradeskill community of other professions.  This will open doors for you if you ever need armor/weapons and such made.  Just a thought.... </font><div></div>

[Langel]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><font size="3">The debuff stacking is known. I mainly use them for raids. I saw a post on the alch's board about the idea that different proc rates stack. </font><hr></blockquote>Fluster, Yes. I know. It was my post on the alchemist boards (the one I linked above) that you saw. I reposted it for those who hadn't seen it yet and because we haven't tested the idea of different proc rates stacking (i.e. three: 15%, 20%, 25%) - just the idea of a damage and debuff stacking (i.e. two). <><span class="time_text"> EDIT: I guess I should have been more clear that the only poisons I've been able to get to stack are a "debuff" and a "damage" - although, as I said, I'm now starting to suspect that it's the different proc chances that are stacking. As expected, once the OP tested multiple damage poisons himself, he saw that they fire consecutively not simultaneously. </span><><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by Langeloc on <span class=date_text>05-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Bayler_x]

Lange's theory definitely warrents some investigation; it's important to know your options.  Since most of the 15% poisons have low proc counts and highly situational use, it would certainly be nice to be able to apply and use them without having to cancel our existing damage poisons.  It also would mean that the Extreme DD poisons could be actually quite useful.

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fluster wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Sotaudi wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Rijacki wrote:One last thing.... one of the reasons it is so devasting to poisons users that the large direct damage with small damage over time and very large direct damage with very small damage over time being incorrect in details and actual damage to their damage types is that it lessens the ability of the poison user to maximise his damage if he is relying on the initial damage burst for the majority of the poison damage (as most would be).As an alchemist, I want this FIXED for you, the poison users. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I appreciate your concern, and thank you.  However, I am not quite sure what you are saying here, Rijacki.  <div> </div> <div>Could you explain the problem you are concerned about a little differently?</div> <hr> </blockquote>I think she is refering to the resist checks on poisons.   Before the DoT resist check, the gap between High DD/Low DoT and Low DD/High DoT dmg was considerable.  Since, the intial DD portion had to go through the resist check, where as the DoT dmg never did.  It would hit for full everytime.  That isn't an issue anymore, since the DoT resist change several weeks ago.  </div> <div> </div> <div>I'm still dissappointed that Rijacki didn't make her Ranger a Gnome.:smileytongue:</div><hr></blockquote> Poison hits and the damage over time starts taking effect, before it can fully run its 4-5 dot ticks (spaced 6 secs apart), a new proc of the poison hits over riding he previously applied poison.  Thus, a large or very large direct damage with small or very small damage over time -might- do more damage over the long run since it's bigger payload always hits (not counting resists).  However, in a resist heavy environment...successive ticks of damage over time -seem- to ignore resists (noted by those who cast dot spells, too), so a larger dose of dot vs direct damage delivers more over the long run especially with slower procs. And my alchemist is a gnome, of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  She's the bestest gnome in my life.  The longer explanation  *chuckle*: I wanted at least one "tallard" for a different look on..umm.. life.. and a half-elf is.. umm.. kinda tall, right?  Mostly... because I am an RPer, I try to keep my characters as different from each other as I can just so I don't accidently slip into one while I am playing the other.  Slipping between characters or droppign too far out of character drops at least 85% of the enjoyment of the game... I quit SWG not because I disliked the game (the crafting is/was awesome there, even if it was hell on my wrists, I was a top armorsmith, it was that I was.. umm.. forced into OOC nearly all the time... and I just.. it lost all it's lustre for me because of that.  I mix mechanics/game-play into my RP, so -that-'s never an issue.. it's the other stuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Flust]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fluster wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sotaudi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR>One last thing.... one of the reasons it is so devasting to poisons users that the large direct damage with small damage over time and very large direct damage with very small damage over time being incorrect in details and actual damage to their damage types is that it lessens the ability of the poison user to maximise his damage if he is relying on the initial damage burst for the majority of the poison damage (as most would be).<BR><BR>As an alchemist, I want this FIXED for you, the poison users.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I appreciate your concern, and thank you.  However, I am not quite sure what you are saying here, Rijacki.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you explain the problem you are concerned about a little differently?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think she is refering to the resist checks on poisons.   Before the DoT resist check, the gap between High DD/Low DoT and Low DD/High DoT dmg was considerable.  Since, the intial DD portion had to go through the resist check, where as the DoT dmg never did.  It would hit for full everytime.  That isn't an issue anymore, since the DoT resist change several weeks ago. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still dissappointed that Rijacki didn't make her Ranger a Gnome.:smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Poison hits and the damage over time starts taking effect, before it can fully run its 4-5 dot ticks (spaced 6 secs apart), a new proc of the poison hits over riding he previously applied poison.  Thus, a large or very large direct damage with small or very small damage over time -might- do more damage over the long run since it's bigger payload always hits (not counting resists).  However, in a resist heavy environment...successive ticks of damage over time -seem- to ignore resists (noted by those who cast dot spells, too), so a larger dose of dot vs direct damage delivers more over the long run especially with slower procs.<BR><BR>And my alchemist is a gnome, of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  She's the bestest gnome in my life. <BR><BR>The longer explanation  *chuckle*: I wanted at least one "tallard" for a different look on..umm.. life.. and a half-elf is.. umm.. kinda tall, right?  Mostly... because I am an RPer, I try to keep my characters as different from each other as I can just so I don't accidently slip into one while I am playing the other.  Slipping between characters or droppign too far out of character drops at least 85% of the enjoyment of the game... I quit SWG not because I disliked the game (the crafting is/was awesome there, even if it was hell on my wrists, I was a top armorsmith, it was that I was.. umm.. forced into OOC nearly all the time... and I just.. it lost all it's lustre for me because of that.  I mix mechanics/game-play into my RP, so -that-'s never an issue.. it's the other stuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gotcha.  I think you are right that sometimes, depending on how often you proc'd during a fight, the High DD/Low Dots can out preform the low DD/High DoTs.   Specially on shots like Triple Shot/Fire.  Where its not uncommon for us to get 2-3 poison procs off of that one CA.  In those cases the we burn 1-3 procs on our poison and only get the duration for a single DoT proc.   Also, it depends on yoru playstyle, but that is really a different topic.  Not sure what else they could really do, having them over ride the DoT dmg, seems like the simpliest and the best solution imo.  The amount of dmg lost isn't that bad, since its not procing on cue.  It just encourages us, the poison users, to carry a couple of different types of poisons for different situations.  Just hope the Alchs follow suit and make more variety of poisons and help educate people on the uses of PC poisons. </P> <P>In resist heavy enviroments, it doesn't matter to much.  The differnce you lose from the potential DD and DoT dmg (ones listed when you examine) and to the actual is the proportional for both the DD and the DoT.   2 months ago, that wasn't the case.  The Devs changed that, in the patch that made all DoT dmg check resist every tic.  It was the one where they made that comment about resist gear will be more valuable to you now, or something along those lines. </P> <P>All of my chars are Gnomes! </P>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fluster wrote:<div></div><p> It just encourages us, the poison users, to carry a couple of different types of poisons for different situations.  Just hope the Alchs follow suit and make more variety of poisons and help educate people on the uses of PC poisons. </p> <p>All of my chars are Gnomes! </p><hr></blockquote> Exactly what I and a few other alchemists are trying to do, not only help spread the word to poison users but to the poison makers, too.  Heck, my sole reason for getting Regn was to try poisons myself and start documenting them in a way I figured would make more.. umm.. sense for others.  We're still working on it ourselves <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Dev help -might- be nice but in a way it's good going through the discovery together.  We're paving roads... Gnomercy!</span><div></div>

[DonSavan]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langeloc wrote:<BR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=5395" target=_blank>I have tested this.</A> You CAN stack a "debuff" poison (20% chance to proc, 80 procs) and a "damage" poison (25% chance to proc, 200 procs).<BR><BR> I'm starting to think, though, that it may actually be possible to stack <I>three </I>poisons.<BR><BR>I started asking myself WHY these poisons were stacking and I think it has to do with the % chance to proc. I suspect that 15%, 20% and 25% chance to proc poisons will ALL stack.<BR> <P>.................. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Alright, I did some testing on this, and am pretty sure that all three stack.  I used a 4proc/15% rare damage poison, a common poison debuff(20%), and a common damage poison(25%).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my first run through, I applied the debuff, then the rare, then the common damage poison.  And all I could really tell was that the rare poison was procing because it dissapeared before the other two.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I tested it the other way around, applied the common damage first, then the rare 4-proc damage, then the debuff.  And again, the rare 4-proc poison dissapeared after a few fights.  This time around I also got a screen shot showing the multiple poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here's a link to show the poisons i was using, and the multiple procs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_gallery.vm?characterId=244990109" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_gallery.vm?characterId=244990109</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also interesting to note, From the screenshot/combat spam, it looks like the rare only has 1 damage line on its initial proc, unlike most other poisons.<BR></DIV>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>DonSavantx wrote:<div> Alright, I did some testing on this, and am pretty sure that all three stack.  I used a 4proc/15% rare damage poison, a common poison debuff(20%), and a common damage poison(25%).</div> <div> </div> <div>On my first run through, I applied the debuff, then the rare, then the common damage poison.  And all I could really tell was that the rare poison was procing because it dissapeared before the other two.  </div> <div> </div> <div>So I tested it the other way around, applied the common damage first, then the rare 4-proc damage, then the debuff.  And again, the rare 4-proc poison dissapeared after a few fights.  This time around I also got a screen shot showing the multiple poisons.</div> <div> </div> <div>here's a link to show the poisons i was using, and the multiple procs...</div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_gallery.vm?characterId=244990109" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_gallery.vm?characterId=244990109</a></div> <div> </div> <div>Also interesting to note, From the screenshot/combat spam, it looks like the rare only has 1 damage line on its initial proc, unlike most other poisons.</div><hr></blockquote>Interesting! It definitely makes a strong case for Extreme-DD and regular damage poisons working together - which makes the Extreme-DD's a far more valuable tool when you need to hit hard and fast. We can't tell from this testimony whether the debuff is procing too, though.  It's possible that the Extreme-DD poison is overriding the debuff: that they use the same channel.  But with such a small number of procs, it doesn't really matter.  Arryn (DonSavantx) showed that it takes priority, so whether it's on the same channel or another, it can be used to load up extra damage at the start of a fight. Bravo!</span><div></div>

[Langel]

<div></div><span><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for posting the screenshot, DonSavantx.The debuff shouldn't be too hard to test with it the biggest problem is the limited number of procs on the 15% type. Some of the 15's have a few more procs though (like the t5 slow).Another way to test it would be to stack three poisons and fight continuously (<font color="#cccccc" size="2">Sidenote [where to test]: do it in a low-moderate tier zone with lots of mobs but ones that still take a few hits to kill or in a moderate-high zone where the mobs can't kill you but it takes you several minutes to autoattack kill them - I tried in TS when testing 20%/25% stacking and found I had to run to get other mobs quite a bit</font>).If you stack the following, they should last for...25% with 200 procs: should last 40 minutes20% with 80 procs: should last 20 minutes15% with 30 procs: should last 10 minutes<font size="4"><i>Do not use any CA's.</i></font> Use only autoattack and try to keep the fighting constant. Shader has posted some standard deviation graphs and there is, of course, a range of times that their time of dissipation will fall into but if the 15% poison and the 20% poison aren't firing simultaneously, then the 20 minute one will consistently run out on the high end of its deviation and even well beyond it.</span><hr><span>Another way to test that the 20% debuff is firing is to use the poison/disease mitigation debuff. Watch for the black-green cloud surrounding the mob. That's its graphic. If you see that graphic while also seeing both types of damage in your chat window, it's probably firing.</span><div></div>

[Rijacki]

I am adding the data found here to the page on poison information on the eq2alchemy site.  Thank you for all the great testing.  <div></div>