Rangers - State of the Union?

[-vali]

Greetings to the sharpshooters of Norrath!     Curiosity drives me to revive my posting on the EQ2 ranger boards - some of yall old timers may remember me. I played eq2 since launch, and did a silent switch over to WoW after feeling like player concerns weren't really being addressed. All that stuff aside (this is not meant to be a game comparison at all, just a lil background on where I've been) - how do you all feel rangers have been over the past couple months? That's my burning question....     Have player concerns regarding skills / snares / arrows / balance been addressed? Did rangers get a lil dev love? Or has the class been relatively stagnant since feb? Seems like these boards aren't nearly as active as they once were. I also wonder how my ole guild and server's been (antonias dragoons / lucan dlere). I read that rip/tear are finally giving better arrows, and that some bugs with the 40+ skills have been addressed. Is this it? Or have there been further improvements? [finally, offlline selling!]    Initially, upon rummaging through the forums a bit, it doesn't seem any significant changes have happened regarding class balance. This is distressing to me, as I notice that there's an expansion slated for august, which is going to introduce some sort of PVP. From all the WoW I've been playing, I've had a lot of PvP experience, and think I should point out a few things which I would think are universal to PvP mechanics. First - class balance is essential. Having PvP introduces competition. Competition demands a certain degree of 'fair play'. Fair play is impossible with unbalanced classes. Whether radical class balancing occurs before or after the introduction is irrelevant. The point is - class restructuring and pvp go hand in hand - it will undoubtedly happen. (why? SOE doesn't want to release a stinker for an expansion. A big draw of the expansion is going to be the PvP. If they don't balance for pvp.... certain classes will emerge as superior, due to poor balance; certain classes wont compete; whole segments of the playerbase is effectively excluded from the new content; then the expansion flops, customers get angry, and people leave - bad for SOE) Second - PvP ideology demands the devs take a certain approach to class balance. For example - EQ2 is a group oriented game, despite all the solo play stuff that's constantly being added. The devs can take a rock/paper/scissors approach and have certain classes foil other classes. The net result would be that a well-rounded group would have limited weaknesses and be generally successfull in pvp. Hence, the R/P/S approach is the same as the group approach. The other, harder, approach is the total balance idea, where potentially any class can beat any other class, purely determined by skill of the player. This is the solo approach, where every class must contain some sort of foil to the playstyle of every other class. The hybrid approach would be to combine the two - where skill plays a large role in determining the pvp victor, however, some classes just tend to have natural advantages over some other classes. Another hybrid would be implementation of  multiclassing. Finally - What could be perfectly balanced in PVE can be drastically unbalanced in PVP. This is where you'll start seeing how this ties in to rangers. Almost all ranger power attacks need to occer from behind. Either in close range melee, or long range from a bow. This is a huge disadvantage. A player, unlike a mob, isnt going to stand still and let you backstab them repeatedly. While this is a problem for assassins as well, the positioning is harder when you need to be at range. Think about it. You're in range, facing an opponant's back. What is a half-way intelligent opponant going to do? Rotate their char 180 degrees. How far do you need to move to get back into postion? All the way to the other side of them. (as opposed to melee attacks, where you wont have to run nearly as far to get back into position). Just an example of what works against (mostly) stationary mobs in pve being totally impractical in pvp. To tie in all the PvP points, and apply to rangers:   - DEMAND class balance, start a ruckus. Not just for your class, but for ALL classes. Rangers stand to be very hurt in PVP, due to their ranged backstab approach.   - Rangers stand to be dominant in pvp as well. Snares, probably the most useless effect you can place on a mob, are a godsend in PVP. Snare + run buff + kite + skills you can use while moving = melee characters get destroyed.   - However, ranged attackers will trounce rangers. With a mere stationary turn, your big attacks are fully negated. Snares are negated when the opponant does not have to move to damage you. Run buffs are negated when mobility is not a issue. Mark my words - the biggest threat to ranger in PVP will be nukers. Simply because they do not require position to damage you, and none of your skills that work against melee characters will be of any practical use. Conclusion - Even if you do not want to play PvP, you can use it to leverage your demands for class balance. Many players will want to PvP. Especially when you've capped your level and obtained your end-game gear. What's left to do that offers challenge? PvP - that's it. Start making petitions to have your class examined, under the guise of the pvp mechanic that is going to be implemented in august. PVP is a lot of fun, when implemented properly. Do you want to miss out on that fun? If not, then demand class balances. Enough people get angry and make themselves heard - and the devs will listen. If they don't listen, consider whether you want to play a game where player input is meaningless.....

[Absinth]

In no particular order: Bugs with some high level skills have been fixed. Rip/Tear are giving higher level arrows. Makeshift is not. But since we still have no idea what arrows do, and since they don't affect combat art damage, it hardly seems relevant. There have been no radical balance changes. The devs are working on what I would characterize as a major overhaul to the combat system that will affect play across a wide range of dimensions. They are not doing things piecemeal, but are testing changes and will roll them all out together. At that time, we will (according to devs) see an increase in scout dps relative to fighter archtypes. No specifics have been provided. PvP: I disklike pvp, I don't care about pvp, I don't do pvp. I disagree with your premise that it can be used as a lever for getting class balancing. First off, they have revealed little about their PvP plans but have said it will be something different than has been done before. Until they reveal what they're working on, using PvP as any kind of negotiating point is not productive. Second, class balance is a worthy goal on its own; it does not need PvP reasons to support it, and certainly not in a game like EQ2 where PvP doesn't even exist yet. Third, you say "rangers stand to be dominant in pvp as well." But if they are, then they are clearly not balanced. You seem to be advocating superiority for rangers, not balance, and those can't work together. So if your question is "How have things been?" then the answer is "slightly improved, mostly the same, bigger changes are coming but have yet to be revealed." <div></div>

[Jay]

<P><FONT size=2>Heya Valis, welcome back to the fold. Secret ranger grip! </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I can't speak to most of your points about PvP, valid as they are. But while you were off galavanting thru Cartoon Land, someone had to keep the home fires burning for the ranger community. I'm not sure who that person is, but I'm sure they're around somewhere. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Anyway, IMO the answer to your question is yes, we've gotten a bit of Dev lovin'. Remember when the ranger forums were a mad uproar every day? I think the current calm is due to the changes that have addressed many of the issues that used to plague us. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Arrow cost is no longer such a factor now that summoned arrows return basically the same CA damage as storebought, higher-quality arrows. Rummage around a bit if you want to find the threads, but a few enterprising rangers did some tests and confirmed that for CA purposes, you're generally okay using summoned arrows. Auto-attack is a different story; higher-quality arrows do return much better damage there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Rip and Tear were improved, IIRC. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Epic mobs are no longer so resistant to multiple types of damage. If a mob is immune to piercing, they're no longer immune to slashing as well. I assume this went a long way toward making rangers more viable in raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Various skills have gotten tweaked and fixed. Stealth skills don't break as easily anymore. Not that it was a problem, but Pathfinding can now be cast while moving, AND it lasts 30 mins instead of 15. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Poisons have gotten some work, making crafted poisons more effective. Clearly a necessity for the discerning ranger.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>- Ranged damage was increased across the board, IIRC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>There have been lots of other changes, and I'm probably forgetting some big ones. But all in all, I feel like our lot has greatly improved in the past few months. See you around.</FONT></P>

[Zemeckis]

Yes rangers have got some loving from the devs but the truth is scouts in general still need to be fixed.  Their dmg output should be much higher then crusader/warrior classes, that's the reason behind picking a scout class.  I picked mine to be a high dmg dealer w/o being a caster, cuz i never really got into casters.  When most fighter classes can do dmg thats on par with mine, whats the point of having a scout on a raid.  The devs did say that scouts dmg output was going to be looked at, but that was a month or 2 ago.  Hopefully we hear some good news soon.

[A]

<DIV>I sure hope SOE doesn't go through a round of class balance for the purpose of PVP game.</DIV> <DIV>EQ is first and foremost a PVE game and it was marketed as such.</DIV> <DIV>If you want pvp , there are others games on the market for that.</DIV> <DIV>If you play eq2 and complains about the lack of pvp or the way it is implemented , it just means you didn't read the box before buying the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would really hurt the game if there was a full round of balancing for the pleasures of a few players having arena fights..........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think SOE has enough work fixing and improving the current game without letting a minority of players taking the game in a direction it was not designed for...</DIV>

[MrNamehasalreadybeentaken]

<P>personally, i hate how there is no PVP yet in EQ2, there was an original plan for it(and also a lot of other plans, but lets not get into that)  </P> <P>eq2 needs something like that, and in the new expansion(if you read the pvp part of it) is awesome, </P> <P>Jest of Befallen</P> <P>31 Ranger </P> <P>70 Wizard, Povar Server</P> <P>*Triton*</P>

[hieronym]

<P>PVP</P> <P>ranger V Wizard...</P> <P>start...</P> <P>Wizard nukes ranger for 3000</P> <P>ranger dead</P> <P>the end...</P> <P>:smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">I would beg that absolutely NO class balancing be done for PvP.  I bought this game over WoW specifically because there was no PvP, and it was stated by SOE that there were no plans to ever put PvP in the game.  I actually sacrificed being able to play with friends/co-workers because of my choice.  There's actually not a single person from my office playing EQ2, but at least a dozen playing WoW.  And I'm not complaining one bit. Anyway, welcome back Valis.  I hope you're back for an extended stay.  As for the implementation of PvP in EQ2, as I understand things, it will be added as a sort of 'arena' style system with a completely distinct and separate ruleset from EQ2 PvE.  Beyond that, SOE hasn't been very open with their information.  Understandably so, I guess. As far as the state of our subclass....the changes have not been drastic, but have been enough to placate us to the point that we're relatively content.  Improvements and adjustments are still needed, but we're definitely better off than a few months ago.  I can tell you that I have no trouble finding groups now, and that my guild seeks me out, and even waits for me to log on sometimes before venturing out on their quests.  This gives a tremendous feeling of usefulness and makes the game even more enjoyable. Now...the upcoming combat changes...they're almost as tight-lipped about this as they are PvP..but, a couple things I've seen just don't seem logical.  Such as 1.  Somehow avoidance is no longer so closely tied to race/archtype/subclass, but rather the type of armor that you wear.  Heavier armor=low avoidance, and the lighter you go in armor, the higher the avoidance.  This in my opinion is silly.  2.  AGI no longer will enhance avoidance, but will enhance mitigation ( I know..doesn't make sense...you'll have to check the test boards/dev tracker)  This again is silly.  3.  STR basically will enhance avoidance.  Again....silly. I may be misunderstanding what I have read...if so I hope my fellow rangers will correct me..but I think for the most part this is generally how things will work.  SOE apparently has this greater vision that on the surface seems completely different than what we've seen in previous RPG's, both single-player and MMO.  The devs make it sound like the end-all, be-all ultimate combat system...  I'm cautiously optimistic at this point Again...welcome back.  Grab a cup of coffee and make yourself comfortable. </font><div></div>

[Sulas]

Hey Valis, you have been missed.  Welcome back, even if only for a bit. I'm only 28, but I'm pretty happy with my Ranger.  I do a good bit of soloing and I'm pretty good at it.  I'm starting to pick up how to kite, blah blah blah. I'll also concur with the above posts.  I will be very disappointed if SoE so much as tweaks one thing in the name of PvP balance.  If I want to PvP, I'll go elsewhere. So, thanks very much for checking in...  but I can't agree with the meat of your post. And yeah, it has been a little quiet, but I really don't see the constant complaining that was so characteristic of these boards in Feb. Well, that's my 2p.  Great to see you! <div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div><div></div>I'm relativly new to EQ2 (1 month) and quite a new ranger as well, so first off I want to say hi to all here. Especially to Jay42, who seems to be the old Ranger Master on this forum (I loved your 'steely eyes' post <span>:smileywink:</span>), and Valis, who's 'Ranger adventuring tips' is probably the first i read in these forums <span>:smileyvery-happy: (and welcome back as well) The state of our class: I started first a mage and while still on the Isle (trial...<span>:smileyhappy:</span>) I thought I'd start a scout, with the thought of him becoming perhaps my ranger second char. Well... I had so much fun, he rapidly became my ranger main char <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I don't know how it was before I started, but I'm enjoying my ranger, others seem to as well. So it looks like the state at moment is quite good. </span><span>As for balancing classes: why not Zholain? just because you don't like PvP and the balancing will be due to PvP, doesn't mean it's not good to balance classes (well, as long as they don't nerf it... <span>:smileywink:</span>) And just so you know: I'm not an PvP fan. But it doesn't bother me either if it's around. And: your choosing EQ2 over WoW because it's not PvP... Hmm, I sure hope that's not your only main reason. <span>:smileytongue:</span> Anyway, they stated a lot. They stated it will have PvP. They stated it will not. They stated it will not have PvP at release. In general, they state a lot of what they think they'll do. If it's what will be is always an other story... <span>:smileytongue: </span></span><span>And last but not least, the changes. I'm not sure, but are you all talking about the combat changes which Moorgard mentions in this post? <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45" target=_blank> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45 </a> If I look at it, it seems to me that that point 2 and 3 of Zholains post are not right? Correct me if I'm wrong and just too much a newbie to find the right statement of the combat changes they are testing. Ryilan Wood Elf Ranger 23 Craftsman 19 Runnyeye Server<span></span> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class="date_text">05-18-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:19 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2"><span></span></font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">jarlaxle888 wrote: I'm relativly new to EQ2 (1 month) and quite a new ranger as well, so first off I want to say hi to all here. Especially to Jay42, who seems to be the old Ranger Master on this forum (I loved your 'steely eyes' post <span>:smileywink:</span>), and Valis, who's 'Ranger adventuring tips' is probably the first i read in these forums <span>:smileyvery-happy: (and welcome back as well)The state of our class: I started first a mage and while still on the Isle (trial...<span>:smileyhappy:</span>) I thought I'd start a scout, with the thought of him becoming perhaps my ranger second char. Well... I had so much fun, he rapidly became my ranger main char <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I don't know how it was before I started, but I'm enjoying my ranger, others seem to as well. So it looks like the state at moment is quite good.</span></font><font size="2"><span><span>As for balancing classes: why not Zholain? just because you don't like PvP and the balancing will be due to PvP, doesn't mean it's not good to balance classes (well, as long as they don't nerf it... <span>:smileywink:</span>) And just so you know: I'm not an PvP fan. But it doesn't bother me either if it's around.</span></span></font><font color="#996600" size="2">Balancing the general game for PvP is a completely different task than balancing for PvE.  Think about it.  You being a scout/ranger, you have a movement speed debuff.  In a PvP setting, you cast this on a fighter(pally, zerker, guardian, whatever) and you almost automatically win the fight.  All you gotta do is kite around and loose a few arrows.  Now, say you're in a fight with a mage.  Mages have roots.  They throw a root on you and you're basically helpless.  They sit back and launch a couple 1000hp nukes and the fight is over.  Okay, what happens when they balance that out?  Are you gonna wanna go fight Vox or Darathar if your mage has been limited to a 200hp nukes?  The current game has been designed arround a <b>group</b> of people <b>teaming</b> up to achieve a <b>common goal</b>.  Each individual's skills are collectively necessary to be victorious.  I like that.  To balance out the general game for PvP would mean eliminating part of that, and you'd basically have WoW with different character models.</font><font size="2"><font color="#996600">  Don't be so quick to make assumptions, because I am one of the advocates for class balancing.</font><font color="#996600">Don't get me wrong, I don't want the game to be restrictive to other players...but I hate the ganking and other childish annoyances that seem to accompany PvP games.</font><span></span><span>And: your choosing EQ2 over WoW because it's not PvP... Hmm, I sure hope that's not your only main reason. <span>:smileytongue:</span>Anyway, they stated a lot. They stated it will have PvP. They stated it will not. They stated it will not have PvP at release. In general, they state a lot of what they think they'll do. If it's what will be is always an other story... <span>:smileytongue:<font color="#996600">I never said that was my sole reason....but when it's a toss-up between the two games, and you specifically dislike PvP, you choose the game that doesn't have it.  Both games have positives and negatives.  And they never stated the game would have PvP, until recently.  You may have seen this in some unofficial statement, but I believe the direct quote from the head guy at SOE read something like "There are no plans to include player vs. player combat in Everquest2."</font></span></span><span>And last but not least, the changes. I'm not sure, but are you all talking about the combat changes which Moorgard mentions in this post?<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45</a>If I look at it, it seems to me that that point 2 and 3 of Zholains post are not right? Correct me if I'm wrong and just too much a newbie to find the right statement of the combat changes they are testing.<font color="#996600">Read the full post, in detail...then read some of the follow up threads, as well as the dev tracker.  I was going from memory, but I wasn't far off.  OK, so agi still improves avoidance, but not longer effects defense/parry/etc(I believe it currently does).  Str increases these, and I believe this is different that the current system.  Moorgard's post only contains a high-level overview of the information that's been given.You are not faced with the same problems that those of us who are looking at end-game stuff pretty soon.  You are aware of the upcoming changes and can choose your racial traits/special abilities accordingly.  I was level 30 before these changes were ever announced, as were Jay, Neecha, Valis, and many other very respected rangers.  We have dedicated our toons to increasing agility, while trying to achieve a balanced level of strength in there as well(the agility nerf also plays into this).  I was simply advising Valis of changes coming down the pike that he may want to be aware of, if he hasn't played in a while.  All of us will be required to make adjustments.Jay...feel free to jump back in here....I'd love to hear your insight.</font>RyilanWood Elf Ranger 23Craftsman 19Runnyeye Server<span></span></span></font><p><font size="2">Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class="date_text">05-18-2005</span><span class="time_text">08:19 PM</span></font></p><p><font size="2">Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class="date_text">05-18-2005</span><span class="time_text">08:21 PM</span> </font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2"><span><span><span></span></span></span> </font><font size="2"><span></span></font><div></div>

[Rian18]

<P>As stupid as it may seem right now, I'm keeping as balanced as possible until these combat changes come through.</P> <P>Who knows how they will interpet agi and str with the changes.   I've read much about it and have yet to get a clearly defined explaination.</P> <P>As such I'm going to keep a balanced set of stats.  Currently I'm running roughly 155 Agi and 125 Str Self buffed.</P> <P>After the changes I'll wait and see which way I feel works better and balance up in that direction.</P> <P>Its just too uncertain, to tell whether you'll be better off heading to 200+ agi and decent str say 130's or if your better off going with substanially more str and much less agi.</P> <P>Only time will tell.</P> <P>Nial Bladestorm</P> <P>36 Ranger</P> <P>Order of the Silverflame<BR>Antonia Bayle</P>

[Jay]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Me?? The "old wizened Ranger" of these boards?? Hahaha, I'm flattered, but I'm hardly all that sagacious. I like to help people is all. There's plenty of other rangers who are more informed than I am, some with characters lower level than mine - Sotaudi comes to mind, among others. Equally flattered to be included with Zho's short list of veterans, hehehe... I hardly think I deserve such accolades, but I appreciate the kind words nonetheless. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>RE: the PvP balancing issues... IMO it's just so difficult to anticipate how that will pan out. I hope we don't see a complete 'rebalancing' of the classes such that the game and the characters we know and love are mangled beyond belief. I'll comment in more detail later when I can read and respond more intelligently, but for now I'm basically witholding judgement. I'm one of those who's pretty firmly in the PvE camp, but I'm willing to maintain a cautiously open mind about the potential there. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>good hunting,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Kae</FONT></DIV>

[-vali]

Yikes, the one-star bandits struck a killer blow ;-D  - There are dedicated RP and PvE WoW servers, just thought i'd clarify that players have the option to participate in PvP or not.  - The EQ2 PvP system, which will be ariving in August, is going to be an arena type system, so you too will have the option to participate in PvP (no gankers in the wilds)  - EQ2 PvP will be part of an expansion pack. SOE wants their expansion to sell. If it turns out that the PvP in the arena is wildly unbalanced (lets say, wizards n warlocks trash everyone, no contest. And hypothetically, Illusionists never ever win), then whole player segments (classes) are getting disenfranchised from the true fun of PvP - challenge.  - There is no challenge to winning as an overpowered class. There is too much challenge to winning as a nerfed class.  - Rangers, for example:     - Rangers have some abilities that will absolutely dominate melee classes     - Rangers have no abilities to counter a nuking class.     - This implies a rock/paper/scissor system.  - Healers (another example)     - Will be the first target (focus fired on) in any group PvP     - The heavy armor healers will be in dramatically more demand. (live longer, less power wasted on self-heals)     - Light armor healers shafted. Due to imbalances, combined with SOE's desire to sell their expansion pack (cha-ching!), there will be radical class balancing. Dont shoot the messenger. Just brace yourself for the impact. So what? Take advantage of the situation. If there's going to be class balancing (there will be, I guarantee it), then get your foot in the door early. Start petitioning for changes. What skills stink? What skills rock? What abilities are going to be useful in pvp? Which aren't? Can you counter class X's Y skill? Oh and I'm not totally back - subscrip runs up in June, figured I'd show my ugly face around here and see if it was worth coming back ;-D Battlegrounds next patch for WoW..... makes the decision easy Good luck rangers, I'll check in a bit till June ;-D

[Cinamy]

<P>There has not been much specific Ranger (or Scout) love recently. As someone else said the whole combat system is being overhauled rather than any specific class. I think that's a better approach, but only time will tell how well they manage it.</P> <P>As regards PvP they have stated they have two sets of figures for each CA for PVE and PVP so that PvP balancing will not affect PvE at all. There will of course be heavy balancing iniitally as the players find ways to do things the devs didn't think of. Although it would have a nicer feel to have CA behave the same in both, I think seperate settings for PvE and PvP will work better for players (less disruption).</P> <P>I love my Ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[jarlaxle8]

OK Jay, want to know why you're in my view 'the old wizened ranger'? Well, you mostly answered that question yourself, and it has been reinforced through opposite examples in this thread. To have wisdom doesn't only mean you know a lot. - It means telling others what you know and giving advice accordingly. - It means admiting you don't know much and saying you'll comment when you are informed. - It means not making up some wild fantasies about how nerfed everything will get and whine around, without knowing a dam thing what you're talking about. Like PvP: All who made up those scenarios with root-nuke, snare kite or whatever, put your hands up if you ever experienced PvP (probably none). Now put your hands up, if you have no chance taking on a caster mob (I hope none). They can root and nuke, but it seems there's not much trouble there, if you do it right. So what's the problem, they have (except for special mobs) the same mechanics as players. You live against a nuker mob, why not nuker player? Or as an other example: I played EQ1 as a wizard. I duelled with a thief friend. Well in short: I get backstabed, root him (with a lot of fizzles due to interupting), nuke him once. root brakes (!) and he's on me again like a rabid hound. I try casting again, but due to fizzles I'm quickly bleeding to death at his feet. You overestimate the nukes of wizzies and there health and underestimate the quickness and health of a scout. And resistances as well. Example 2: nercro and enchanter duell. Does the enchanter die? Nope, they are not as bad as you may think. Chanter charms necro pet and gives the necro a good wopping with his own pet. As for tanks and kiting: kiting was not really intended by SOE. Or to take an other approach: We rangers can kite a ^^ red mob around, tanks can't. So for PvE that's fair, but PvP is a different matter or what? If you think it is, ask anyone who can not kite (like a tank). I never asked them, but I'm sure they don't think it's really quite fair. - It also means you just don't say something in the name of others. - And you also don't state something wich somehow doesn't make sense because of other things you said, did or are. like Zholain: 'I invested in agi'; but why are you a high elf Zholain? So why not choose a woody or halfing from scrap? Now, before you start hating me real bad: I assume your choice is because you just wanted to be a high elf. That's a good and fair reason, so if it's like that, sorry for the comment. As for that, the agi a woody has more doesn't really make much difference in the long run, due to gear. Same with the traits: all in all up to lvl 50 you can push your agi up 14 points. It probably won't effect you badly. I hope so, it's not that I wish you ill. Perhaps an option would be the /respec command i read about somewhere here? As for the strength issue (no, i don't think you're stupid Rian, I would say you're smart), as much as i know it always affected damage, so only pushing up agi is even without these planned changes probably not best choice. -And last but not least (quote) '<font size="2">I'm willing to maintain a cautiously open mind about the potential there'. </font>To be openminded is a great trait. OK, that was my honest opinion. Don't kill me, but i just don't see much sense of bashing changes and bashing PvP, just because you don't seem to like it and your dislike is based on some ideas you have of the form it takes. And no, I am still not a PvP fan. But a form of it was around on EQ1 on PvE servers, and it didn't effect PvE in any way. And to not make you think 'look here now, the newbie thinks he knows it all'. No, I don't know it all. But I have a background of almost 20 years of RPG, electronic and pen&paper, and i've been game master (the pen and paper one, not customer support <span>:smileyhappy:</span> ). so - concerning my comments about mobs having same mechanics like players - I know quite some basic things of RPG player and mob mechanics. Yes, at last the end of post <span>:smileytongue: Ryilan Wood Elf Ranger 23 Craftsman 19 Runnyeye</span><div></div>

[Rian18]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jarlaxle888 wrote:<BR>OK Jay, want to know why you're in my view 'the old wizened ranger'? Well, you mostly answered that question yourself, and it has been reinforced through opposite examples in this thread. To have wisdom doesn't only mean you know a lot.<BR><BR>- It means telling others what you know and giving advice accordingly.<BR><BR>- It means admiting you don't know much and saying you'll comment when you are informed.<BR><BR>- It means not making up some wild fantasies about how nerfed everything will get and whine around, without knowing a dam thing what you're talking about.<BR>Like PvP: All who made up those scenarios with root-nuke, snare kite or whatever, put your hands up if you ever experienced PvP (probably none). Now put your hands up, if you have no chance taking on a caster mob (I hope none). They can root and nuke, but it seems there's not much trouble there, if you do it right. So what's the problem, they have (except for special mobs) the same mechanics as players. You live against a nuker mob, why not nuker player? <BR>Or as an other example: I played EQ1 as a wizard. I duelled with a thief friend. Well in short: I get backstabed, root him (with a lot of fizzles due to interupting), nuke him once. root brakes (!) and he's on me again like a rabid hound. I try casting again, but due to fizzles I'm quickly bleeding to death at his feet. You overestimate the nukes of wizzies and there health and underestimate the quickness and health of a scout. And resistances as well.<BR>Example 2: nercro and enchanter duell. Does the enchanter die? Nope, they are not as bad as you may think. Chanter charms necro pet and gives the necro a good wopping with his own pet.<BR>As for tanks and kiting: kiting was not really intended by SOE. Or to take an other approach: We rangers can kite a ^^ red mob around, tanks can't. So for PvE that's fair, but PvP is a different matter or what? If you think it is, ask anyone who can not kite (like a tank). I never asked them, but I'm sure they don't think it's really quite fair.<BR><BR>- It also means you just don't say something in the name of others.<BR><BR>- And you also don't state something wich somehow doesn't make sense because of other things you said, did or are.<BR>like Zholain: 'I invested in agi'; but why are you a high elf Zholain? So why not choose a woody or halfing from scrap? Now, before you start hating me real bad: I assume your choice is because you just wanted to be a high elf. That's a good and fair reason, so if it's like that, sorry for the comment. As for that, the agi a woody has more doesn't really make much difference in the long run, due to gear. Same with the traits: all in all up to lvl 50 you can push your agi up 14 points. It probably won't effect you badly. I hope so, it's not that I wish you ill. Perhaps an option would be the /respec command i read about somewhere here?<BR>As for the strength issue (no, i don't think you're stupid Rian, I would say you're smart), as much as i know it always affected damage, so only pushing up agi is even without these planned changes probably not best choice.<BR><BR>-And last but not least (quote) '<FONT size=2>I'm willing to maintain a cautiously open mind about the potential there'. </FONT>To be openminded is a great trait.<BR><BR>OK, that was my honest opinion. Don't kill me, but i just don't see much sense of bashing changes and bashing PvP, just because you don't seem to like it and your dislike is based on some ideas you have of the form it takes. And no, I am still not a PvP fan. But a form of it was around on EQ1 on PvE servers, and it didn't effect PvE in any way.<BR>And to not make you think 'look here now, the newbie thinks he knows it all'. No, I don't know it all. But I have a background of almost 20 years of RPG, electronic and pen&paper, and i've been game master (the pen and paper one, not customer support <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN> ). so - concerning my comments about mobs having same mechanics like players - I know quite some basic things of RPG player and mob mechanics.<BR><BR>Yes, at last the end of post <SPAN>:smileytongue:<BR><BR>Ryilan<BR>Wood Elf Ranger 23<BR>Craftsman 19<BR>Runnyeye</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I need to clarify a few things wrong with this post in my opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>1.  In your low 20's no mobs are a problem really.  Casters included.  As you level up the damage done by caster mobs and their health seem on increase dramatically.</P> <P>I can solo 42^^ at 36 with ease.  I can solo Red heroic groups with little problem.  A yellow con solo caster is a 50/50 proposition at best.  When your dotted for 250 a tick and being nuked for 500 a pop you drop much faster then you can kill him.</P> <P>You may not see it now at 23 however you will begin to see it very soon I promise.  </P> <P> </P> <P>2.  Most people here I believe are basing their pvp predicitions based on two factors.  The basis for pvp in eq 1 and the the combat system in eq 2.</P> <P>You said in EQ 1 you couldn't take a rogue.  Thats very well true low hp casters couldn't stand up to dps melee long enough to kill them...normally.  Now take that same caster and outfit him in high end gear and he would nuke the rogue dead before he even went through his various spell shields.  My point is in EQ 1 gear was greater then everything.   My Paladin could not be killed in eq 1 duels.  It was next to impossible having been in a mixture of time/qvic gear.  I could literally stand there and just melee you down as I just healed myself and lost almost no mana due to my FT.</P> <P>The point is in EQ 2 gear isn't as overwhelming a factor.  It will be all about player skill and how they use their combat abilities.</P> <P>If you take the current system and change nothing Rangers will be utterly dominant against any non ranged attackers.</P> <P>Zerkers, Paladins, Guardians, Monks, Bruisers etc will have no chance when they must close to melee range and we can just use our in combat movement buffs like foresters insight and our massive ranged damage skills to kite them around as we keep their movement speed reduced via snares.</P> <P>It would be cake really to kite around a melee character, much easier then kiting around something that hits for 2k.</P> <P>Now the flip side, how would we ever kill say a fury? Or a Warlock?  A fury who would just run keep themselves healed while nuking us and watching us die on their damage shield?  Very simpley w/o back attacks they can heal faster then we can kill them.  Yes their is a chance.  Perhaps if we get the jump on one with a big back attack etc, but in straight up pvp very little chance.</P> <P>Same with wizzies and warlocks.  A wizard who can simply root us and drop a 3k nuke.  Well I don't know about you but 3k is well over my total health so all he would have to do is hit me with one spell and i'm done.</P> <P>Now however a Paladin, maybe able  to heal off the the nuke damage rapidly and close in and using a combination of damage attacks, heals and stuns take down the caster.</P> <P>See what I'm getting at?  It seems to be a paper rock scissors system.  We beat the paladin who beats the warlock who beats us.</P> <P>That would be fine.  I would prefer a system where any class has a chance to beat any other but that would require a whole slew of rebalancing. </P> <P>For example warlock nukes would have to be tuned down in pvp.  You can't be one shotting other players and have it fair.  Perhaps fix nuke dmg at 65% or so.  Snares would have to be more easily resisted.  Archery would have to be tuned down in damage.  Mitigation and avoidance would have to be reworked.  Granted you could keep all the variables as they are for pve but in terms of pvp the ruleset would have to change.</P> <P>Its a hell of a lot of work.  As such I believe they will just go to the paper, rock, scissors formula.</P> <P>EQ 1 was about gear first and foremost.</P> <P>EQ 2 will be about class and abilties.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nial Bladestorm</P> <P>36 Ranger</P> <P>Order of the Silverflame</P> <P>Antonia Bayle</P> <P> </P>

[jarlaxle8]

Rian, that's a great post. Thx for the detailed clarifications, I see now where the trouble lies. I admit that I only can comment on what I've seen so far and what i saw in EQ1. I would never have thought that the CAs/Spells would become so powerful. So I apologize for making the assumption it would scale up from my current lvl. <span>:smileysad:</span> Your scissors/rock/paper model is a very good picture for short description how it could be. Perhaps it will be like that. The other approach of special PvP rules seems likely too. Would be fair, if looking at solo vs solo PvP. The above would only work in grps. But what I at least can say due to EQ1 experience: PvP can be around without beeing a drag for people who dislike or even hate PvP. I personally would hate it as well if I had to watch my back on every step (hardcore PvP), or the classes would get nerfed like hell. But on the roleplaying side PvP would make sense in a way. At least for evil vs good. Somehow in EQ1 I always had a strange feeling of 'not quite what it should be', beeing a high elf, but grouped with dark elves, trolls and that. Course I could have just done the roleplay and tell the Delfs who wanted to grp to go to hell (or Innoruuk) <span>:smileywink:</span> But it's hard to keep up the play if you're almost the only one doing so. I read that it would be like arena style, so it doesn't seem it will effect the PvE gameplay (or at least not much). Thx again for your insights, it has given me a more clear picture <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <span> Ryilan Wood Elf Ranger 23 Craftsman 19 Runnyeye p.s. You've been timegeared in EQ1? You lucky dude... <span>:smileywink:</span> Sadly, I never got that far. </span>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <P></P></FONT> <HR> <P>jarlaxle888 wrote:<BR>OK Jay, want to know why you're in my view 'the old wizened ranger'? Well, you mostly answered that question yourself, and it has been reinforced through opposite examples in this thread. To have wisdom doesn't only mean you know a lot.<BR><BR>- It means telling others what you know and giving advice accordingly.<BR><BR>- It means admiting you don't know much and saying you'll comment when you are informed.<BR><BR>-And last but not least (quote) 'I'm willing to maintain a cautiously open mind about the potential there'. To be openminded is a great trait.<BR><BR>OK, that was my honest opinion. Don't kill me, but i just don't see much sense of bashing changes and bashing PvP, just because you don't seem to like it and your dislike is based on some ideas you have of the form it takes.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2>Hey Jarlaxle....thanks again for the very kind words, I hardly think I deserve them but I appreciate it nonetheless. That said, I think you're going a bit far in calling people's opinions 'bashing' just because they don't concur with your own opinions. If you appreciate open-minded tolerance and acceptance, try and refrain from sniping at someone's posts or thoughts in that manner. I try to just agree to disagree and be respectful; we're all on the same team here. Personally I'm very glad that the negativity that haunted the ranger boards back in Jan-Feb has more or less evaporated; I visit some of the other forums and it's SUCH a drag to see how people can treat each other over something so trivial. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>PS: Zholain, this is totally out of the blue, but I didn't get a chance to respond in the thread where you mentioned being on the same server with me and grouping together. That would indeed be highly excellent, and seriously deadly. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good to see you around! </FONT></P>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div>Hello again Jay. Wise <span>:smileywink:</span> and true words. It was perhaps too much and I overreacted. It just seemed to me not quite fair against Valis, who seems to have put an effort in his post, to just answer like 'No way, i hate PvP'. Valis didn't post PvP suggestions, he posted an idea to use this for class fixing/balancing. But I was a bit sniping too much, I must admit... Perhaps Assassin would be more apropriate <span>:smileywink:</span> <span>---------------------------RyilanWood Elf Ranger 23Craftsman 19Runnyeye---------------------------</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class=date_text>05-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span>

[Mithremakor]

<font size="4">First off let me  say that I've been around a while but I'm new to the boards.  I've just spent all my time playing (Rangers exclusively).    That being said, I can say that things have improved a lot for Rangers of late and especially for us RP'ers who love to solo and my personal vision of a Ranger is a lone wanderer fighting for good wherever he/she may be.  If you really want to know how it's improved, log on and give your Ranger a run before your subscription ends<span>:smileywink:</span>   On the subject of PvP, if they change the balance for the whole game it will destroy the game outside the arenas.  If they allow PvP outside the arenas I will cancel my subscription (unless there are non-PvP servers).  I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek for a while but I left the server in disgust because the PvP players had no idea how to use the power in role playing and I soon found I couldn't RP myself without being jumped every time I turned around.  I soon began to avoid other players completely when outside of towns and then I said to ---- with it and left the server for a RP server. Rangers rule! The other classes just help out now and then<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> </font><div></div>

[joh]

While I might possibly be wrong about this....  For arena only combat, I think SoE could use some tricks to balance the classes without radically changing their skills.  Things like limiting the damage spells can do on players,  increasing resist rates for movement spells in PvP.  Increasing mitigation for heavy armor classes in ranged combat situations... but also increasing avoidance for light armor classes in close combat situation.  All this can possibly be done through buffs and debuffs that are givin to you just cause you enter the arena.  Again I could be completely wrong, but with a strictly arena based pvp system, I dont think it would be that hard for them to impliment enchancements and restrictions for pvp combat, and leave group and solo pve the way it is..... -Jeapordy Nyofacesuka (47 Ranger)  <Army of Darkness>   Butcherblock <div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Wow!  Look at the people come to defend the lady...LOL. Jarlaxle, I think you may have read hostility into my post when indeed there was none.  I would ask that you please read some of my previous posts before you bash me.  I always try to be as friendly and courteous as I know how to be.  I would never say anything to intentionally offend or insult anyone.  Valis' insights and words of wisdom are a large reason that I didn't give up on my ranger at around lvl 24 or 25(which was the same time that rangers seemed to be hurting the most because of SOE's changes).  I have great respect for him, as well as all my senior rangers and a majority of those who have yet to reach the higher levels.  And you will not find anyone more open-minded than I. The guys...and gals...who have been working with their rangers since launch have seen a lot of changes, both good and bad.  I speak from my experience, which may, and likely will, differ from most others' experiences.  Reading these boards, take the information that is given and use it to your advantage.  The experience and knowledge gained by those a few levels ahead of you is invaluable.  I know I have greatly benefitted from it.  The ranger boards probably have the greatest feeling of community than any other...it has evolved into a great place to spend an hour or so each day reading and learning...as well as chatting with friends.  I only wish to do my part to continue that. As far as my race selection...my bio gives my roleplaying info.  It is really my own choice, however, as to how I play this game.  But since I'm feeling talkative...hmmm...dwarven ranger? nope...dwarven women have beards.  Ogre ranger?  nah...can't fit through any of the doors in Baubbleshire.  Troll ranger?  heh..have you ever seen a troll female?(if not..wait til you see one..you'll be seriously disturbed)  nope...not a troll ranger.    Seriously, I completely created one of each of the logical choices(except ratonga) and the high elf most closely suited what I wanted in my character.  And indivuduality is part of what an rpg is supposed to encourage. </font><div></div>

[Jay]

<P><FONT size=2><hugs Zholain> You hit the nail on the head, hon. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>(Jarl, kudos to you for the re-read, too.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>RE: PvP... as long as it's kept inside the arena, I'll probably be okay with it. Some part of me is still a little 'meh' on even that, b/c it opens up the door to a lot of /duel challenges, but life will go on. As long as the game outside the arena doesn't become completely different just to accomodate PvP, I'll deal with it. I just saw some screenies of the new city and some mobs from DoF, and they look splendiforous.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>RE: Player races... I think Jarl's original comment was a bit misdirected in that "pursuing AGI" doesn't necessarily mean you forsake everything else to gain AGI at all costs. Obviously most of us consider AGI the primary stat, tho we're in the unenviable position of having to buff STR as well if we want to do better melee damage. That said, your starting race choice is more or less irrelevant, IMO. The stat differences are minor and the racial traditions won't make or break your character. I chose to play kerra for a few reasons; they're unique relative to my experience (I've never played a feline humanoid in an RPG), they look damned cool, I liked the idea of a kerran predator (makes sense, no?) and they have a good balance of stats for melee classes. The stat consideration was a minor one, but given that he was my first character, I wasn't quite ready to go for an ogre mage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div>Zholain, sorry for the bashing. It is true, with first of what I thought people not understanding Valis and then your answer to my post I was upset and started the snipe post. Your name in these forums is as well known to me as some others, and those I've seen are friendly - although not always in line of what I think <span>:smileywink:</span> But that's perhaps of me still beeing barely past predator. As for your race choise: I can't see your bio! Am I doing something wrong? How you play this game is good, I know that it's not important to choose an ideal race concerning stats. Your arguments of the other races: lol <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> . No, I've been lucky so far as not meeting a troll female. That would probably scare my pants off, especially in a dark alley... <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> What about dark elf female? They are cute too, and would be a nice roleplay as ranger... but perhaps the good dark elf ranger is a bit worn. While I'm around here, I can take the oppurtunity to ask a quick question: Yesterday I was in a grp, and there was a guardian as tank. I parsed the log, and I saw, that most of the time he was around the same dps, sometimes a lot better, a few times I was clearly in front, but not much. That seriously disturbed me. What did I do wrong? I tried as much as I could, stepped back to let fly my bow CAs, did a lot of shrouded strike/shadowflame, stalk/shadow blade. I had some hard time running around trying to get in the back of the mob. Could it be because of that I loose some dps time getting into position? Shall I inform the tank that he should pull and switch to next enemy in an encounter in a way that I can have a quick go on the back without having to run to other side? It probably would be a good idea, cause I sometimes needed to be on the side where the enemies have been pulled from and in that way risking getting a roaming add. Don't know, but I would like some advice, insight and ideas of what I've gotten wrong. Or is it just the unbalanced issue? I read somewhere the same with zerkers. Can it be that a guardian can out dps us at the moment as well, due to them beeing same class? <span>--------------------------- Ryilan Wood Elf Ranger 24 Woodworker 20 Riverwind Alliance Runnyeye ---------------------------</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class=date_text>05-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[-vali]

*** Dueling *** - Now you can challenge enemies or allies to a duel! - Targeting another player and typing /duel sends them an invitation to battle. - You can fight in any location, whether it be in a city, inside a house, outdoors, or in the deepest dungeon. - To give up before the death blow is landed, type /duel_surrender to end the duel. - If two players are battling and one zones, camps, or goes linkdead, that player surrenders the duel. - The outcome of the duel is broadcast to everyone in the zone, whether it be death or surrender. - Be warned: Dying in a duel results in the same penalties as death to an NPC. You will drop a shard, incur XP debt, and take damage to your equipment. Nobody said duels were without risk. - You can neither offer nor accept a duel if: - You are in the same group as the potential opponent. - Either of you is considering another duel challenge. - Either of you is currently dueling someone else. - Either of you is locked to an encounter. - Either of you is on the hate list of an NPC. - Either of you is currently dead. - Either of you is on the other's ignore list. - Either of you is on a griffin. - Dueling tests not only the abilities of your class, but how well you play it. Let the battle begin! PvP arriving a little sooner than expected....

[Zholain]

<div></div><div></div><span><font size="2">Don't sweat it Jar.  One of the disadvantages of text messages is it's not easy to convey inflections and a general 'tone' of various comments.  I'll check my StationPlayers thing....I may not have it set to be viewable by others. Funny you should mention the dark elf race.  I actually considered it, but I read so much about the betrayal quest being so difficult, that I was intimidated by it.  But in the end, I've been pretty happy with the high elf.  My guildies seem to enjoy my company, and I have never been excluded from any event because of a lack of usefulness or effectiveness.  Also, I now have the best of both worlds, as I've completed The Missing Mask...Guise of the Deceiver is pretty cool. As for your dps, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in parser results.  I used one for a little while, but discovered that I was becoming too worried about dps rather than fulfilling my role...so I uninstalled it and haven't used it since.  If you get a general 'feeling' that your damage isn't what it should be, check the obvious and make sure that you're using poisons appropriate for your level and that you haven't out-leveled your weapons.  Guardians should never even come close to your dps...a berzerker may come close from time to time, but you should consistently have higher output.  That being said, (and I'm not sure what the state is now because like I said I don't use a parser any longer) there have been numerous threads regarding dps output of rangers compared to other classes.  I have seen some...ahem...dissatisfaction... among some rangers regarding this.  I know that some changes have been made to epic mobs to correct at least a portion of this, and I am hopeful that the combat system overhaul will better structure the subclasses so that their roles fit where they should.  It sounds like you were doing all the right things, and the switching from side to side is just something that I've gotten used to.  I try not to tell the tank how to perform his job, unless I see something that he can do that would benefit the group as a whole....like spinning the mobs(If you find a tank that already does this, put him on your friends list and group with him often), protecting the healer, etc.  You'll get it sorted out.  <span><span>:womanwink:</span></span> Hey Valis. Yep.  I saw this on Friday.  Very interesting.  I was very surprised to see it this soon, but part of me thinks that this may be a sort of test for the devs...to help them determine the class balancing issues for the real PvP system in September. Edited for content...I misinterpreted the release notes..this will be very interesting, indeed. </font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class="date_text">05-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:44 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Mithremakor]

<font size="3">This is in response to Valis' PvP announcement.  I find it very disturbing.  I really learned to hate PvP in EQ1 and the idea of it being in EQII at all gives me the willies.  The bad part though is being able to do it anywhere.  That means if PvP rebalancing of skills is done it will most likely affect PVE as well.  I reallly don't want to give up this game to the gladiatoral types with no real sense of what a RPG is or what it means to role play.  I only hope I'm wrong about this<span>:smileysad:</span> </font><div></div>

[Kyriel]

I wonder how long til /duel hits live servers

[JaggNomr]

I wouldn't worry about the duel thing...it is only an option if you WANT to do it...you don't have to participate in it if ya don't want to....Persoanlly,....we gonna rock the house...I can't wait to start Kiting the loud mouths all over the zones <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kyriel]

I wanna take on Ranger Vs Assasin ^_^

[Mithremakor]

<font size="3">Actually, I'm not concerned about dueling per se, I'm concerned about what they'll do to our characters to 'balance' them for PvP.  Dueling within instanced arenas allows for changes to player stats  only within those instances but when duels are allowed anywhere?  All I can say is it makes me nervous. </font><div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>{OT}</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zholain you do now WoW has PvE right? PvE servers are exactly like eq2. With one exception. You attack an NPC and you are fair game for anyone. Some people trick newer players into this on PvE servers, but the majority do not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I gave up WoW for EQ2...I just like EQ2 better. Now when Dungeon & Dragons online comes out 2nd half of 2k5. I may be gone from EQ2. DDO devs guarantee NEVER PVP. The games engine / combat system sound great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its being developed by Wizards of the Coast (Distributor of PnP (paper and pen) D&D) and turbine software (A very good software company, I'd go so far as to say better then SOE). So far in just the alpha/beta testing any major issues the community of testers have brought up have/are being addressed. <A href="http://www.ddo.com" target=_blank>www.ddo.com</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry didn't mean to plug them, didn't realize until after I typed it that I did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>{BOT}</DIV> <DIV>I have only been playing my character since the 28th of April. So far the experience has been fun if not totally interesting. So much so that I've been neglecting my tradescraft to level up so I can get my ranger title (level 18 now, finished ranger sub-class quest trying to boost to 20 so I can get armor/title, then taking a break to catch up on my tradescraft). When grouping with similar levels but various classes I notice a few things...I do more damage then anybody except fighters. I think its the poisons though, cause my weapons base damage is REAL low (5-16). Hopefully I'll find a good weapons drop from a mob soon as my sword now tells me "you are overqualified for this item", for that matter so does my bow and armor, but I cant use the sub-class reward bow (arrels bow) yet, I dont think I can use that till 20, same with medium armor (I assume I will be able to use medium it says as much in the manual. Funny thing is I have all this medium chainmail stuff. But I cant use it yet. So I am selling it, and because the market is the way it is, I am selling it usually for only a few silvers...so I can get rid of it (gotta remain competitive in your pricing of goods if you want to get sales).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@ present I have coif, coat, bracers, and boots all chainmail, and totally unusable by me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully 149% experience will be gained by the end of the weekend so I can get to 20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But overall I like the ranger, I like him a lot. </DIV> <DIV>He has the ability to go quietly where others cannot.</DIV> <DIV>He has the ability to totally dominate an opponent with the sneak attacks, especially those master (1) attacks.</DIV> <DIV>Ranged is awesome. Using the sprint buff in combo with a bow and decent arrows/poison can be quite deadly to a group of 4 or more.</DIV> <DIV>I haven't tried dual wield at all yet, because at present I get better buffs/procs/dmg from my sword and shield then any of the dual weapons I have come across that I can use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mithremakor]

<font size="2">  You will be able to use medium armor and the bow when you make Ranger at 20.  And the bow is the weapon that does the real damage for us, especially with a good variety of poisons<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> </font><div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Thanks for the info Mithremakor. I look forward to lvl 20 that much more now. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sry for hijacking the thread partially.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zholain]

<span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">StealthM0de wrote: </font><div><font size="2">{OT}</font></div> <div><font size="2"> </font></div> <div><font size="2">Zholain you do now WoW has PvE right? </font></div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote><font size="2">Errrr...yes?  I'm not sure why you direct that at me.  I've stated earlier in this thread as well as others that PvP is just not anything I care about.  It won't bother me to have it in the game if SOE can find a way to avoid the foolishness that seems to always accompany it.  I think my coworkers have had dissimilar experiences than you.  They all elected to play WoW (and are on PvE server), and it is the exception on the mornings when they come in and don't have stories to tell about one character trying to lure another into PvP.  They don't seem to mind it much, but it's just not for me. Yes D&D Online looks to be interesting.  However, I'm currently having too much fun in EQ2 to consider switching.  And I just can't afford the time to play two MMO's. </font></span><div></div>