crippling shot master

[hieronym]

<DIV>seen this on the broker for 60 gold, just wondering if this is worth the upgrade to my app4 as the damage is not that much better and the parry is the same amount. Being a master is it more likely to hit more often?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks</DIV>

[GoNom]

<DIV>Just one poster's oppinion, I would hold off on buying any adepts, as the benfits do not justify the costs.  As rare as they are they should do no less the double the effectiveness of the ability.  60g is alot to spend on an ability that will improve the damage by hom much 20-30?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Save your money, use it to complete something like PGT heritage, so you won't have to harvest for ten days to get the piece of fir you need to make it.  The investment will pay off far more.  If you just have money to burn, and wanna have bragging rights, that having an adept ability brings, go for it.</DIV>

[Flipya4Re]

<DIV>Just an FYI to the previous poster, the original poster's question was in reference to the Master 1 Crippling Arrow, not Adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of my personal opinions on adepts/masters:</DIV> <DIV>======================================</DIV> <P>1.)  It seems that the majority of people have complaints about the minimal or sometimes nonexistant increase in damage, debuffing, and other properties of a CA as it progresses through Apprentice - Adept - Master.  In some cases this is probably a valid complaint.  However, I think that one of the primary purposes of upgrading CA's to higher quality levels is being overlooked because it is somewhat of an intagible.  </P> <P>That intangible is the overall effectiveness and longevity of usefulness of your combat art as it increases in level.  A higher level CA is going to give you several benefits:  it will be resisted less, it will strike the opponent more frequently, and the damage dealt will be mitigated less as the level of your combat art increases.  Your ability to dish out damage to a mob is a factor of the combination of your level AND your CA's level in relation to the mob's level and defensive abilities.  </P> <P>Think of your CA as a weapon seperate from the one(s) that you hold in your hand, but akin in functionality.  Just because you're level 50 with 9382 Slashing skill, doesn't mean that you can run around pummelling dragons with a rushy longsword.  You may be able to get to sword   You may be able to slip your Two-Handed Tetanus Tormenter (rusty sword) past the pariries and dodges b/c of your skill in wielding it, but when it strikes the target all you're going to end up with is an iron cluster and a nice ringing sensation in your sword arm.  </P> <P>2.)  Regarding dishing out 60gp to upgrade to Master 1.  My person opinion...NO WAY!  Crippling Arrow gets upgraded to Debilitating Arrow at level 49.  I personally do not upgrade any CA's past Adept 1 unless it is the final CA for that line/timer.  Of course, if you've had to upgrade to a three room apartment so that you can have an extra room to facilitate your giant pile of platinum, then have a blast.</P> <P> </P>

[kyshander]

Awesome!  I want to have a three room apartment for my pile of platinum..... oh well, I mean my pile of gold..... oh well, maybe my 7 gold will get me a pile of silver, maybe a small pile..... hah!  I will have a pile of copper to fill my rooms! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> yay!

[Sirlutt]

<span><blockquote><hr>Flipya4Real wrote:<div>Just an FYI to the previous poster, the original poster's question was in reference to the Master 1 Crippling Arrow, not Adept 1.</div> <div> </div> <div>A couple of my personal opinions on adepts/masters:</div> <div>======================================</div> <p>1.)  It seems that the majority of people have complaints about the minimal or sometimes nonexistant increase in damage, debuffing, and other properties of a CA as it progresses through Apprentice - Adept - Master.  In some cases this is probably a valid complaint.  However, I think that one of the primary purposes of upgrading CA's to higher quality levels is being overlooked because it is somewhat of an intagible.  </p> <p>That intangible is the overall effectiveness and longevity of usefulness of your combat art as it increases in level.  A higher level CA is going to give you several benefits:  it will be resisted less, it will strike the opponent more frequently, and the damage dealt will be mitigated less as the level of your combat art increases.  Your ability to dish out damage to a mob is a factor of the combination of your level AND your CA's level in relation to the mob's level and defensive abilities.  </p> <p>Think of your CA as a weapon seperate from the one(s) that you hold in your hand, but akin in functionality.  Just because you're level 50 with 9382 Slashing skill, doesn't mean that you can run around pummelling dragons with a rushy longsword.  You may be able to get to sword   You may be able to slip your Two-Handed Tetanus Tormenter (rusty sword) past the pariries and dodges b/c of your skill in wielding it, but when it strikes the target all you're going to end up with is an iron cluster and a nice ringing sensation in your sword arm.  </p> <p>2.)  Regarding dishing out 60gp to upgrade to Master 1.  My person opinion...NO WAY!  Crippling Arrow gets upgraded to Debilitating Arrow at level 49.  I personally do not upgrade any CA's past Adept 1 unless it is the final CA for that line/timer.  Of course, if you've had to upgrade to a three room apartment so that you can have an extra room to facilitate your giant pile of platinum, then have a blast.</p> <hr></blockquote>Can you prove #1 ? I'm more inclined to think that if the app and master descriptions/damage and effects are the same then the things you say probably dont change either. the bottom line is SOE needs to revisit ALL skills and make sure that upgrading them provides a definate tangible verifiable increase... only then will these things be worth buying <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Jay]

<FONT size=2></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=2>Yeah, I see where FlipYa is coming from - the methodology he describes would make a lot of sense. But I'm leery about spending my money on upgrade where there <STRONG>may</STRONG> be an invisible benefit, but one that I have no way to assess until I spend that money. I'd like to see some proof or substantial evidence that Adept- or Master-level skills really do have those 'intangible' benefits before I lay out the cash. (Thanks for the posting, tho, Flip - I don't want this to sound like I don't believe you or think you're wrong...in fact, I really want to believe you're right.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>And 60g?? No f'in way. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Artr]

I can prove one.  Cheap shot.  At app1 i could stun a thing after level 20 or so.  I'm 38 now with it adept and I stun all the time.  Actually Flipya makes a very sound point about the purpose of upgrading skills.  that said, yes 60gp is a rip even if you do have an [Removed for Content] load of plat. <div></div>

[hieronym]

<P>thanks for the replies. </P> <P>I didnt go for it in the end as i didnt feel it justified the cost and also the player selling it was a 50 ranger lol</P> <P>As for the description this is a big grey area that needs addressing big time. We just done know what we are getting half the time and its a lottery spending your hard earned cash on something not knowing that it will be better. </P> <P>I can confirm that even though the description of entrap adept 1 is not different it does work a lot better. I was helping out a few guys kill a monk for the sash quest and the tank died twice so i entrapped it and kited it around until the tank was rezzed and back to health then let him take over. Even at my then lvl of 38 i could hit the 44^^ mob every time and slow it down while pinging away with the bow and keeping a good distance :smileyhappy:</P> <P>So the morale of this story is just cos it doesnt look any better it may not mean it isnt...</P>

[Sirlutt]

yah.. i sometimes think that the spells themselves DO improve.. but in a rush to get things out the door and into the game.. the descriptions are just a copy of previous ones.. might explain why things look the same.. the detailed descriptions were added later.. i wish they'd fix this though and make it so we can determine how effective an upgrade is. <div></div>

[GoNom]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipya4Real wrote: <DIV>Just an FYI to the previous poster, the original poster's question was in reference to the Master 1 Crippling Arrow, not Adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just an FYI to you, I meant it when I said <STRONG><U>All Adpets</U> </STRONG>  But, for you will clarify it, all Adept III's and Masters, are worthless for the amount of coin it takes to get them, especially if he is talking about Crippling arrow, there is a skill upgrade to it, its not the highest on its skill tree. So he will be paying for a skill, 60g mind you, that he will recieve a free upgrade in less then 12 levels that will be more effective at the App I level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flipya4Real wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just an FYI to the previous poster, the original poster's question was in reference to the Master 1 Crippling Arrow, not Adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of my personal opinions on adepts/masters:</DIV> <DIV>======================================</DIV> <P>1.)  It seems that the majority of people have complaints about the minimal or sometimes nonexistant increase in damage, debuffing, and other properties of a CA as it progresses through Apprentice - Adept - Master.  In some cases this is probably a valid complaint.  However, I think that one of the primary purposes of upgrading CA's to higher quality levels is being overlooked because it is somewhat of an intagible. </P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Intangible - Incapable of being perceived by the senses. Incapable of being perceived by the senses. Incorporeal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In other words, having no noticiable benefitr, in this case.  So thier worth is what?  Prestige?  Ooh Ohh I have a Master I, that effectively does nothing to benefit me!  Wooohoooo!  Think I only had to empty my bank ac[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to get it.</FONT></DIV> <P>That intangible is the overall effectiveness and longevity of usefulness of your combat art as it increases in level.  A higher level CA is going to give you several benefits:  it will be resisted less, it will strike the opponent more frequently, and the damage dealt will be mitigated less as the level of your combat art increases.  Your ability to dish out damage to a mob is a factor of the combination of your level AND your CA's level in relation to the mob's level and defensive abilities. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>There is absolutely no evidence to back this, the spells skill level does not increase, IE Archery max skill of 200, so the math the game uses to determine resists is altered in no way shape or form.  All the increases, adn I use the word "increase" very lightly here, is damage and debuff.</FONT></P> <P>Think of your CA as a weapon seperate from the one(s) that you hold in your hand, but akin in functionality.  Just because you're level 50 with 9382 Slashing skill, doesn't mean that you can run around pummelling dragons with a rushy longsword.  You may be able to get to sword   You may be able to slip your Two-Handed Tetanus Tormenter (rusty sword) past the pariries and dodges b/c of your skill in wielding it, but when it strikes the target all you're going to end up with is an iron cluster and a nice ringing sensation in your sword arm. </P> <P>2.)  Regarding dishing out 60gp to upgrade to Master 1.  My person opinion...NO WAY!  Crippling Arrow gets upgraded to Debilitating Arrow at level 49.  I personally do not upgrade any CA's past Adept 1 unless it is the final CA for that line/timer.  Of course, if you've had to upgrade to a three room apartment so that you can have an extra room to facilitate your giant pile of platinum, then have a blast.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The one comment that I agree with, in 2 short paragraphs you managed to contridict yourself twice.  Buy it because they have tangible benefits, but don't buy it because it will be replaced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My suggestion, don't buy any, Adept III's  and Masters, untill Sony starts fixing the Skill set system.  They are a shear and utter waste of coin that can be invested elsewhere.</FONT></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[GoNom]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Artrus wrote:<BR>I can prove one.  Cheap shot.  At app1 i could stun a thing after level 20 or so.  I'm 38 now with it adept and I stun all the time.  Actually Flipya makes a very sound point about the purpose of upgrading skills.  that said, yes 60gp is a rip even if you do have an [Removed for Content] load of plat.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Cheap Shot App I and I stun all day long with it, no problem what so ever.  Level 35 by the way.  Tested today, soloing Orcs in Zek, White cons.

[KetMali]

<DIV>I didnt read any of this stuff, but cripple [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]/debilitating shot is worthless. Not sure what lvl but you get maesyns incapacitating shot (or something like that). It is about same as a adep 1 deb arrow, but it also debuffs ac. So I use it the most.</DIV>

[Flipya4Re]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>GoNomar:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>There is absolutely no evidence to back this, the spells skill level does not increase, IE Archery max skill of 200, so the math the game uses to determine resists is altered in no way shape or form.  All the increases, adn I use the word "increase" very lightly here, is damage and debuff.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Since you obviously have the source code to the EQ2 combat engine, please feel free to enlighten the community to its inner workings at your leisure.  </P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Intangible - Incapable of being perceived by the senses. Incapable of being perceived by the senses. Incorporeal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In other words, having no noticiable benefitr, in this case.  So thier worth is what?  Prestige?  Ooh Ohh I have a Master I, that effectively does nothing to benefit me!  Wooohoooo!  Think I only had to empty my bank ac[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to get it.</FONT></DIV> <P>Also, you're dictionary quoting is lackluster at best.  Nowhere in your definition does it state that something that is intagible has no benefits, only that it cannot be perceived by the senses.  I also said "somewhat of an intangible."  If you want to take things out of context and then quote a dictionary and then make false correlations to the definition which you posted such as something being intagible having no benefit then go right ahead, it only makes you look like an idiot.  On the other hand you could just jump off a cliff and stop wasting oxygen, after all oxygen can not be perceived by your senses, so it must not have any benefit to you.  Myself, I'm glad that some intangibles exist.</P><p>Message Edited by Flipya4Real on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>