Arrow level no longer important - number proof inside [Archive]

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Timt

03-24-2005, 03:02 AM

After reading that arrow damage seems to have been increased in last patch (no mention in patch notes though so who knows if this was intended, or yet another bug), I decided to try it out to see if it was true. I also checked to see if it was an "across the board" increase (good) or just setting everything to the same (bad). Well, here are my results of an evenings battles using vendor Iron Arrows (basic arrow, costs 5c each), Feyiron Ripped Arrows (mid level 30-40 arrow) and also player made Feyiron Hunting arrows (should be the best right, otherwise what's the point in PM arrows, it ain't cost ?). This was against yellow/orange mobs (including ^ and ^^ ones) in PF (mobs were ranged from level 45-48, in other words 2-5 levels above me i.e. pretty normal group targets) I logged all my data and boy is there a lot of it ! I started off analysing just one CA skill, Crippling Arrow as it was a single attack and I use it a lot. Here are the results: - Iron Arrow - Highest hit 285, Lowest hit 134, Average over evening 187 - Feyiron (rip) - Highest hit 222, Lowest hit 135, Average over evening 190 - Feyiron Hunting (player made), Highest hit 243, Lowest hit 120*, Average over evening 190 *The player made Feyiron Hunting arrow was the only one to be successfully parried by a mob <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was going to analyse my results some more, but looking at this has made me wonder what the point would be. I would say that all three arrows average out to be more or less the same. The 3 damage points difference is only 1-2% and that's not really significant. If anyone else wants to do the same for the other CAs, please post your findings here, but I suspect it will be the same. So, what can we deduce from these damage numbers ? 1. The quality/level of arrows has no affect on the damage your ranged CA attacks cause 2. The quality/level of arrows has no affect on the lchance of hitting a mob with a ranged CA attack. What does this mean for Rangers ? 1. We should stop complaining about arrow costs, we can simply use the cheapest arrows we can find and they will do the same damage. In my view, this is an absolutely typical SOE response to a problem.. Ranger complain about cost of arrows and lack of DPS, so rather than fixing it properly (tear gives decent arrows, making your own arrows is cheaper, player made arrows do more damage), what do they do ? They make all arrows equal and up the damage on them all. No thought to player made arrows, no thought to reselling arrows, no thought to Tear skill (why use it, just use Makeshift Arrows to get your arrows). Sometimes I wonder if the devs even know what game it is they are writing stuff for... <div></div>

Sirlutt

03-24-2005, 03:21 AM

why did you buy arrows ?.. why not use makeshift arrows? if this is true we dont have to buy arrows again.... i'd rather see Rip and Tear (which will provide better arrows iam told) provide arrows that scale the damage up. ie makeshift carbonate do what you have there.. average for 190.. RIP Feyiron (not bought) do average fo say 230 and Tear Fulginate do 280 or so.. something like that. regardles.. this is most definately a step in the right direction... just like to see it scale. <div></div>

Merkad

03-24-2005, 03:45 AM

Actually, I wonder if SOE would have made it so arrow types no longer matter on CAs, but do matter on regular archery. To me that would rock. I dont use my bow for regular archery, just CAs, so if they finally removed the cost associated with the main dps portion of archery, then I would be happy. And if arrow types still matter for regular archery, then there is a purpose to having better arrows for those who want to waste their time, and subsequently, a purpose for the rip/tear+ skills. I hear alot about player made arrows, my thoughts on this is simple, I dont want them. Why in the world would a regular person care if they have to spend their cash at the arrow vendor or the broker? I dont want to pay for my DPS period. And at least the Merchants are not greedy like the player base (that is not to say they don't charge too much right now). Drink still costs a gold+ for tier 5 for most drinks, even after the changes to make it cheaper, once have I actually found a good deal, that is it (2:30hour drink, high, level 50 for 25 silver.. just once). Merkades, 48th Ranger. <div></div>

Sotaudi

03-24-2005, 04:00 AM

The results are interesting and appear conclusive, but we need to get more data before we can draw conclusions. Bear in mind that you used hunting arrows as one of your arrow types. These do slashing damage, not piercing as the others do. Also, if you did not try this on the same critter type throughout, you are dealing with differences in resists and damage types that could skew the results. So I would like to see some more experimentation, and I will certainly see what I experience the next time I am out.

Balerius

03-24-2005, 05:03 AM

I note that you only parsed damage from your skill Crippling Arrow. If your results are accurate, then it might be that SOE has begun treating CA damage from arrows exactly like they have been treating CA damage from bows.... namely: CA damage is independent of the type of weapon/bow/arrow used. It would have been useful for you to have parsed the non-CA damage from the various types of arrows to see whether damage still scales by arrow tier for regular bow attacks.

Jiinx

03-24-2005, 07:25 AM

<div></div>From the March 21 patch notes (page 2): "The range of damage shown when examining most spells or combat arts that initiate a melee attack will no longer change based on the weapon equipped. There are are few spells/arts (such as the Berserker's Fury art) that vary based on weapon type, but the overwhelming majority of spells and arts are not affected by weapons." As mentioned by others, perhaps for the combat art, neither the bow nor the arrows affect damage? This would be in line with the patch note quoted above; it specifies "melee attack", but it is reasonable to think that it applies to ranged attacks as well, and that while specific language was used, it wasn't being used carefully. And as mentioned by Merkades - Yay!, for arrows being irrelevant for bow-based combat arts. Has anybody determined whether there is arrow-based damage for normal ranged attacks? <blockquote><hr>Merkades wrote:Actually, I wonder if SOE would have made it so arrow types no longer matter on CAs, but do matter on regular archery. To me that would rock. I dont use my bow for regular archery, just CAs, so if they finally removed the cost associated with the main dps portion of archery, then I would be happy. And if arrow types still matter for regular archery, then there is a purpose to having better arrows for those who want to waste their time, and subsequently, a purpose for the rip/tear+ skills. I hear alot about player made arrows, my thoughts on this is simple, I dont want them. Why in the world would a regular person care if they have to spend their cash at the arrow vendor or the broker? I dont want to pay for my DPS period. And at least the Merchants are not greedy like the player base (that is not to say they don't charge too much right now). Drink still costs a gold+ for tier 5 for most drinks, even after the changes to make it cheaper, once have I actually found a good deal, that is it (2:30hour drink, high, level 50 for 25 silver.. just once). Merkades, 48th Ranger. <div></div><hr></blockquote>

Echothunder

03-24-2005, 05:11 PM

Perhaps this is a higher level CA issue? I went and tested this on Giants in Thundering Steppes.. but only with Iron Arrows bought from Npc and Carbonite Makeshift. Using Backshot Iron arrows were hitting for low 60 dmg- high 110 avg below 100, switch to carbonite and use same back shot and low was 135 high was 260 I have noticed other threads mentioning issues with 40+ CA's also where does type of arrow vs mob come into all this? Ie- piericing , slashing , and crushing arrows. Message Edited by Echothunder on 03-24-2005 04:12 AM

Ijiamee

03-24-2005, 11:28 PM

<DIV>Feyiron arrows do not hit for as much as Indium.</DIV>

Sotaudi

03-24-2005, 11:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ijiamee wrote: <DIV>Feyiron arrows do not hit for as much as Indium.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For CA's or for normal Ranged attacks (or both)?

Ijiamee

03-24-2005, 11:51 PM

<DIV>For CA's, I don't use normal ranged attacks.</DIV>

Ebjelen

03-25-2005, 09:39 AM

The problem is that you are trying to use statistics to prove something. I've said it hundreds of times before, I'll say it again. Probability is NOT math. Probabilty is the use of math to make a guess.. Just because some people call it a math course does not make it so. Statistics is NOT math. Statistics is the use of math to quantify data based upon probability and unknown variables. Notice the phrase "use of math" that's why you find these things in math books. That does not make them math, it makes them applications of math. Moreover, as several people have already pointed out, there are many variables missing. I'm not going to iterate the missing variables because many of them are unknown. And, I'm in flame mode anyway.

GoNom

03-25-2005, 02:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote: The problem is that you are trying to use statistics to prove something. I've said it hundreds of times before, I'll say it again. Probability is NOT math. Probabilty is the use of math to make a guess.. Just because some people call it a math course does not make it so. Statistics is NOT math. Statistics is the use of math to quantify data based upon probability and unknown variables. Notice the phrase "use of math" that's why you find these things in math books. That does not make them math, it makes them applications of math. Moreover, as several people have already pointed out, there are many variables missing. I'm not going to iterate the missing variables because many of them are unknown. And, I'm in flame mode anyway. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Nothing like a good mah vocabulary flame to get the night going, thanks! I woke this morning and said to myself "you know what? I think statistics is math, and hopefully someone can prove that wrong today" . Last time I checked the validity of something being math or not being math had no bearing as to whether the flipping DEVS LOOK AT IT!!!!! /flame off

Timt

03-25-2005, 05:26 PM

<blockquote><hr>Ebjelen wrote:The problem is that you are trying to use statistics to prove something. I've said it hundreds of times before, I'll say it again. Probability is NOT math. Probabilty is the use of math to make a guess.. Just because some people call it a math course does not make it so. Statistics is NOT math. Statistics is the use of math to quantify data based upon probability and unknown variables. Notice the phrase "use of math" that's why you find these things in math books. That does not make them math, it makes them applications of math. Moreover, as several people have already pointed out, there are many variables missing. I'm not going to iterate the missing variables because many of them are unknown. And, I'm in flame mode anyway. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I'm not sure if you are talking about my stats, or somebody else's, but I there is nothing wrong with my stats. My results show that Crippling Arrow does the same damage regardless of arrow and regardless of mob. Hence my proclamation that arrow levels are no longer important. If the arrow levels or the mobs resist levels made a difference to damage then you would see a variety in the results as I would be bound to be killing more of the "easy" mobs with one arrow and more of the "harder" mobs with another. The chances of my getting a completely even distribution of arrows/mobs by chance is pretty unlikely. As it was, I just killed random stuff for hours on end and then averaged out the results and each arrow type showed the same results. For each of the arrows to come out with the same damage proves that I should just have used the iron arrows all the time. There was no advantage to using arrows costing 200x more. If somebody believes I am wrong and wants to prove it, don't come here generalising or trying to be clever with word definitions. Bring me number proof that and show where I am going wrong. Now, the point people seem to be missing here, is what is the point of using anything except the cheapest/free arrows ? Nobody (at least no Scout) uses normal ranged attacks at all. All bow attacks are CAs. If you are in a position to use a ranged attack, then you should just use the bow CA instead. As soon as the mob is too close for ranged, you switch to melee and use that instead. Runing away kiting a mob using non CA attacks is a very poor way to kill a mob. So, if high level arrows are pointless, where does this leave all the high end woodworker/rangers who thought they would be making their own special damage dealing arrows to help take down their foes ? <div></div>

Jay

03-25-2005, 11:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote: The problem is that you are trying to use statistics to prove something. I've said it hundreds of times before, I'll say it again. Probability is NOT math. Probabilty is the use of math to make a guess.. Just because some people call it a math course does not make it so. [And so on...more of the same.] <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Does that big head of yours make it hard to get out the door in the morning? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Show a little respect and you might actually earn some yourself. There's very little education or intelligence required to grasp your rarely-complicated points. (Assuming your posts have a point other than self-aggrandizement.) Anyway, the findings are interesting to say the least - thanks for taking the time to test and post this, Tim. This test alone may not prove anything conclusive, but it's enough to let other rangers know that ranged weapon damage for combat arts is changing. I didn't do any hard testing last night (wasn't parsing), but there didn't seem to be a noticeable difference between store-bought feyiron arrows and my usual makeshift carbonite. Thanks again for posting, Tim.

Mordock of the Highwynd

03-26-2005, 03:29 AM

<DIV> "The problem is that you are trying to use statistics to prove something. I've said it hundreds of times before, I'll say it again. Probability is NOT math. Probabilty is the use of math to make a guess.. Just because some people call it a math course does not make it so." When we investigate the game, we can only do so in one way--generate data and analyze it. The only tool we have for analyzing data is statistics. It might be nice to prove that all arrows generate the same damage in the same sense that we can prove that the intersection of closed sets is closed. But we can't. On a scale of 1 to 10: Original post: 10 Really useful and based on a decent sample over the same general mobs by the same player. Stat/Math reply: Heat 4 (not a big flame in the scheme of things) Light 0 (no applicable point) Julian Granger (Juliun) 26th level Assassin The Discipleship Antonia Bayle Server </DIV>

Balerius

03-26-2005, 05:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timtim wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Now, the point people seem to be missing here, is what is the point of using anything except the cheapest/free arrows ? Nobody (at least no Scout) uses normal ranged attacks at all. All bow attacks are CAs. If you are in a position to use a ranged attack, then you should just use the bow CA instead. As soon as the mob is too close for ranged, you switch to melee and use that instead. Runing away kiting a mob using non CA attacks is a very poor way to kill a mob. So, if high level arrows are pointless, where does this leave all the high end woodworker/rangers who thought they would be making their own special damage dealing arrows to help take down their foes ? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> I can think of at least two high end raid encounters where using regular ranged attack is a very viable means of attack in between a ranger's bow CA attack refreshes. So please don't make sweeping statements about how there is no purpose in using higher end arrows. Moreover, I can think of several additional high end raid mobs that are immune to one or more types of arrow damage (i.e., piercing or slashing). In case you don't get it, if a mob is immune to both piercing and slashing, just how to you propose to damage it? So I, for one, am very interested in whether: 1. Bow CA attack damage scales or not based on the tier of arrow. 2. Whether bow regular attack damage scales with the tier of arrow. So far, aside from the original post, I haven't seen any evidence presented on either of the above questions.

Trei

03-26-2005, 09:23 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I tested last night with tin and carbonite arrows. Average damage using CAs (headshot, openshot and backshot) on same mob types from con grey to orange was pretty much the same. I did not do large samples of each, so I cannot confirm for a fact that ammo tier now no longer matters at all. But the difference between now and pre-patch is very significant, to the point that it is safe to say that even if it still actually matters, it isn't by any practical or noticeable amount. Anyhow, I managed to complete the first two steps of zek access solo simply by kiting the blue-to-me orc marauders to death with tin arrows :smileyvery-happy: nevermind the fact that it took me 10mins for each encounter. edit: oh yeah forgot to mention - ammo level does still matters just as much as before with ranged autoattack. <div></div>Message Edited by Trei49 on 03-26-2005 08:28 AM

Ebjelen

03-28-2005, 09:59 AM

I didn't say anyone's stats were wrong, I said they were worthless. Just because a lot of people think statistics is a valid analysis tool does not make the myth true. And just because I disagree with everyone else does not make me wrong. Also, just because I am blunt does not make me crass or impolite. Lastly, who said I was trying to impress devs? If you can't handle the truth then don't ask for it by blantly using mythology to quantify non-existant variables. Someone challenged the truth, I challenged back. 1 stars will never change that.

Jay

03-28-2005, 11:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote: If you can't handle the truth then don't ask for it by blantly using mythology to quantify non-existant variables. Someone challenged the truth, I challenged back. 1 stars will never change that. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Literally laughing out loud here! This is so hilarious for so many reasons. These boards need a lot more humor, thanks for providing some.

MaenaBowy

03-29-2005, 01:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timtim wrote: Nobody (at least no Scout) uses normal ranged attacks at all. All bow attacks are CAs. If you are in a position to use a ranged attack, then you should just use the bow CA instead. As soon as the mob is too close for ranged, you switch to melee and use that instead. Runing away kiting a mob using non CA attacks is a very poor way to kill a mob. So, if high level arrows are pointless, where does this leave all the high end woodworker/rangers who thought they would be making their own special damage dealing arrows to help take down their foes ? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I have to disagree. Other than the aforementioned Piercing and Slashing resistant raid mobs, where crushing arrows are the only things that work, ranged autoattack nicely fits inbetween CA's. If somebody is really skilled, and is able to switch smoothly to ranged autoattack when he backs off for ranged CA's, and switch back to melee afterwards, he will have noticeably improved damage output. Arrow damage is definitely NOT negligable, and an extra 200-300 or whatever whenever autoattack fires off an attack between CA's adds up pretty nicely. "Auto attack" takes no time. Queue one ranged CA after another, and if autoattack has refreshed by the time the first one has finished "casting' you get the free "auto attack" damage between the two CA's. Now granted, it's a hassle, and I'm not good enough at it to make it worth my while, (half the time I tried it I forgot to switch back to melee autoattack) but the damage increase while you're at range is noticeable.

Priestbane

03-30-2005, 03:26 AM

Ooops, sneeki bard in here. This should actually be a plus for you guys... if arrows affected your CAs (not your regular shots) before, then you were being ripped off, since no one else in the game has their CAs affected by what weapon they are holding (aside from prerequisites, like HAVING the arrows, or a particular weapon that the CA may require). You could be holding a level 10 dagger, and as long as you met the prerequisites, your CA would do the same damage. Your regular melee would suffer though...

Xandab

04-17-2005, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timtim wrote: After reading that arrow damage seems to have been increased in last patch (no mention in patch notes though so who knows if this was intended, or yet another bug), I decided to try it out to see if it was true. I also checked to see if it was an "across the board" increase (good) or just setting everything to the same (bad). Well, here are my results of an evenings battles using vendor Iron Arrows (basic arrow, costs 5c each), Feyiron Ripped Arrows (mid level 30-40 arrow) and also player made Feyiron Hunting arrows (should be the best right, otherwise what's the point in PM arrows, it ain't cost ?). This was against yellow/orange mobs (including ^ and ^^ ones) in PF (mobs were ranged from level 45-48, in other words 2-5 levels above me i.e. pretty normal group targets) I logged all my data and boy is there a lot of it ! I started off analysing just one CA skill, Crippling Arrow as it was a single attack and I use it a lot. Here are the results: - Iron Arrow - Highest hit 285, Lowest hit 134, Average over evening 187 - Feyiron (rip) - Highest hit 222, Lowest hit 135, Average over evening 190 - Feyiron Hunting (player made), Highest hit 243, Lowest hit 120*, Average over evening 190 *The player made Feyiron Hunting arrow was the only one to be successfully parried by a mob <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was going to analyse my results some more, but looking at this has made me wonder what the point would be. I would say that all three arrows average out to be more or less the same. The 3 damage points difference is only 1-2% and that's not really significant. If anyone else wants to do the same for the other CAs, please post your findings here, but I suspect it will be the same. So, what can we deduce from these damage numbers ? 1. The quality/level of arrows has no affect on the damage your ranged CA attacks cause 2. The quality/level of arrows has no affect on the lchance of hitting a mob with a ranged CA attack. What does this mean for Rangers ? 1. We should stop complaining about arrow costs, we can simply use the cheapest arrows we can find and they will do the same damage. In my view, this is an absolutely typical SOE response to a problem.. Ranger complain about cost of arrows and lack of DPS, so rather than fixing it properly (tear gives decent arrows, making your own arrows is cheaper, player made arrows do more damage), what do they do ? They make all arrows equal and up the damage on them all. No thought to player made arrows, no thought to reselling arrows, no thought to Tear skill (why use it, just use Makeshift Arrows to get your arrows). Sometimes I wonder if the devs even know what game it is they are writing stuff for... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont think it was much the type of arrer u used to begin with. It also depends on the type of bow. Did u try this experiment with different damage lvl bows? prolly not. Damage rating matters in this as well, not the arrer completly. Some bows hit harder then others no matter what kind of arrer u use. Try that n then lets see the results of yer experiment again.. I'm willing to bet u'll see a significent difference.</DIV>

Putka

04-17-2005, 08:25 PM

heh as far as I know the quality of bow only determines if you can damage a certain mob with it or not. For example, named mobs require at least a "Handcrafted" quality. And certain epic mobs require legendary. Also, if your bow is long greyed out and you try to shoot a high level mob, it'll say you need to use a bow that requires higher skill to master. The actual damage on bow only matters with non-CA ranged attacks. And the OP tested a combat art.Message Edited by Putka on 04-17-2005 09:26 AM

Kegofbud

04-19-2005, 11:52 PM

<DIV>What bow did the OP use for his tests? It stands to reason that if the bow maxed out at around the area he's seeing his max hits all at that he's not going to get any further damage. Just thinking out loud but on my normal ranged attacks, I noticed a max difference from carbonite to feyiron arrows. I don't have the exact numbers available at the moment but I know I tested a stacks of iron, carbonite and feyiron arrows on normal ranged and noticed slight differences on a Pristine Imbued Cedar Longbow. I don't think there was any difference when using my Blunted Arrows ability.</DIV>

Neec

04-20-2005, 05:30 PM

Arrow damage should work like melee damage now when using CA skills it ignores the weapon and does what the skill is intended to do. Normal bow shots not using specials do scale up with better arrows. Raid mobs still require tier 5 crafted blunts or slashing to hit them lower level arrows get parried a lot. But as a whole for general hunting and having fun normal makeshift arrows suffice the CA damage they do is based on skill not arrow.. Now if you plan on soloing some mobs by kiting and will be using normal bow shots while you oop or w8ing on skills to reset then higher tier arows wil lwork better.

RangerCalis

04-20-2005, 08:47 PM

<DIV align=center> <HR> </DIV> Neecha wrote: Arrow damage should work like melee damage now when using CA skills it ignores the weapon and does what the skill is intended to do. Normal bow shots not using specials do scale up with better arrows. Raid mobs still require tier 5 crafted blunts or slashing to hit them lower level arrows get parried a lot. But as a whole for general hunting and having fun normal makeshift arrows suffice the CA damage they do is based on skill not arrow.. Now if you plan on soloing some mobs by kiting and will be using normal bow shots while you oop or w8ing on skills to reset then higher tier arows wil lwork better. <DIV align=center> <HR> </DIV> Simple, true, and to the point. While Professor Ebjelen rambles on about mythology (a somewhat immature and unfitting analogy) and quantum physics, the OP and Neecha hit it right on the head because they didn't read into it so much. Why "challenge" the obvious? Furthermore, if you don't want to take their word for it, then see for yourselves! It looks to me the prof here was just trying to start a complex debate over something so simple. Anyhow, my experience with the whole thing.... My highest hit thus far was with an Pristine imbued cedar longbow, using the CA storm of arrows (Adept III). I was using tin arrows, was ungrouped, and had my normal everyday self buffs on. The mob was blue con heroic. My analysis is that for CAs, arrow tier doesn't matter anymore. As far as raid mobs go, I've yet to try tin arrows on any myself, I have a habit of using only tier 5 arrows during a raid. And yes, ranged auto attack is used against certain raid mobs. The difference between using tin and fulginate arrows during ranged auto attack is very significant, so tier level does matter in this instance. Edited a "bleep", though I don't understand why it was censored. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by RangerCalis on 04-20-2005 09:52 AM

joh

04-22-2005, 05:15 AM

All of my highest hits have been done with makeshift carbonite. Got a 995 culling the herd last night.. with carbonite. I dont think the type of the arrow has a positive or negitive effect on damage anymore. <div></div>