A plan to fix rangers and scouts

[CyberE]

<DIV>7 steps to fix all scout classes. </DIV> <DIV>1 step to fix the ranger class.</DIV> <DIV>2 steps to make the game funner</DIV> <DIV>4 precautions to make to prevent people from exploiting. </DIV> <DIV>9 benefits that come from this plan.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To fix all scout classes</DIV> <DIV>==================</DIV> <DIV>1. Make it so all scouts can use poisons. </DIV> <DIV>2. Make it so all poisons hit epic mobs, but resist rates are 50%+. </DIV> <DIV>3. Make it so all arrows hit epic mobs. </DIV> <DIV>4. Make a new type of poison that can hit epic mobs with low reist rate. </DIV> <DIV>5. Make it so woodworkers can craft NORMAL fulginate arrows (99 per combine). </DIV> <DIV>6. Increase all bow style damage by 300% if using player-crafted "damage-specific" (e.g. pierce/slash/crush) arrows. </DIV> <DIV>7. Change damage table according to weapon type. Strength damage bonus > agility damage bonus at a rate of about 2:1 (to keep fighters in par when not tanking). Most crushing weapons are based 90% on strength and 10% on agility. Most slashing weapons are 60% strength / 40% agility. Most piercing weapons are 90% agility, 10% strength. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To fix ranger class</DIV> <DIV>================</DIV> <DIV>1. Reduce timer on storm of arrows to 45 seconds. And after the 300% damage buff, reduce damage of storm of arrows by 300% so it does the damage it does now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make the game funner</DIV> <DIV>===================</DIV> <DIV>1. Create 2 new arrow types that deal magic and fire damage that does 500% more damage when using styles, BUT each combine can only make ONE arrow. </DIV> <DIV>2. Create poison types that work better on a certain type of mob, but weaker on others</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Precautions</DIV> <DIV>================</DIV> <DIV>1. Reduce the number of charges on EPIC specific poison to 2 or 3. </DIV> <DIV>2. Reduce the number of arrows per combine of the "damage-specific" arrows to 10. </DIV> <DIV>3. Remove hunting arrow types from city merchants. </DIV> <DIV>4. Change damage type of Double Shot bow styles to depend on arrow type</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Benefits</DIV> <DIV>================</DIV> <DIV>1. Scouts can now choose to, or not to outdamage the fighter classes depending on whether if they are willing to pay for player-crafted poisons. </DIV> <DIV>2. Predator types can choose to do more damage than the rogue-types if they are willing to pay for arrows. </DIV> <DIV>3. Predator types can choose to do more damage than the sorcerer-types if they are willing to pay for the arrows (which IMO, they are supposed to due to zero unique ability). </DIV> <DIV>4. With storm of arrows changed, rangers can now be distinguished from assassins for the fact that assassins do massive single target damage, while rangers do AE damage (like wizards vs warlocks, only that we have to pay).</DIV> <DIV>5. Fixes the woodworker class, as arrows are now worthwhile to craft, and can be sold. </DIV> <DIV>6. Fixes the alchemist class, as poisons are now worthwhile to craft, and can be sold. </DIV> <DIV>7. Balances the classes so that </DIV> <DIV>    a) Mage > Fighter > Scout if scouts do not use poisons. </DIV> <DIV>    b) Mage > Scout > Fighter if scouts use poisons. </DIV> <DIV>    c) Predator > Sorcerer if predators choose to use arrows. </DIV> <DIV>8. No need to invent a new utility for the predator class</DIV> <DIV>9. No nerfs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remarks</DIV> <DIV>=========</DIV> <DIV>The poison change should increase bard damage a little to make them come in par with fighter types, and would help alchemists to sell poisons because only PC-poisons can land on epic mobs. A slight increase in poison damage would help balance the scout vs fighter DPS problem. Brawlers should be able to outdamage rogues if rogues don't use poisons. But rogues should be able to come close to brawler damage when rogues use poisons. </DIV> <DIV>The time-sink created from decreasing the charges will prevent scouts from exploiting their damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The arrow change should further increase scout damage and help the predator types in particular. This change will make rogues do more damage than brawlers if they use poisons and arrows. This change will also make predator types do more damage than rogues given that both are using arrows. Because that predator types have almost zero utility, unable to buff, debuff, transfer power, interrupt or stun on raids, the change to allow predators to do the most damage, even more than sorcerers if they are willing to pay the price, will also increase the value of predators on raids. (which at the moment, there is almost none)</DIV> <DIV>The time-sink created from decreasing the number of arrows per combine will prevent scouts from exploiting their damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In general, the DPS concept of Mage > Scout > Fighter > Healer won't change, because scouts would not always be willing to pay for those expensive arrows and poisons, and alchemists and woodworkers would not always be willing to spend that much time to make those expensive arrows and poisons. But poisons will at least change it so that scouts can do more damage than fighters at a given cost. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>===========</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>New Change as of March 20th, </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- 99 arrows PER combine of NORMAL fulginate arrows. This will allow rangers to do the damage they are doing now at a lower price. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- 10 arrows PER combine for DAMAGE-SPECIFIC fulginate arrows. The time-sink prevents ppl from exploiting the damage. Even leaving a macro to do this would be time consuming, so the overall effect remains. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- All poisons land on epic mobs with a high resist rate. All poisons keep the number of charges they have now. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- Epic-specific poisons are created. Epic-specific poisons only have a few charges (as they do high damage and can hit epic mobs)</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- Changed damage table. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Thank you for your insights. =p</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by CyberEva on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 AM</span>

[Tr]

<blockquote><hr>1. Scouts can now choose to, or not to outdamage the fighter classes depending on whether if they are willing to pay for player-crafted poisons.<hr></blockquote>Why should we have to pay to out dps a class that's built for tanking ? Give me 3x my hp and I'll agree.

[CyberE]

<DIV>This is to keep things in balance while making no nerfs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should not outdamage brawlers if we don't use poisons and arrows. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But! Rogues should outdamage brawlers if they use poisons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rogues shouldn't outdamage sorcerers, but they can do 90% of sorcerer damage if they use arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should not outdamage rogues if we don't use arrows. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But! We will even outdamage sorcerers by 20-30% if we use arrows. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Asking for a fix to nerf a class is just asking to get flamed. This is a compromise. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol, did you just 1 star me?  </DIV><p>Message Edited by CyberEva on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[ifightwithmyfis]

And to think SOE actually pays people to balance out the game...

[Tr]

I don't star people if you were accusing me. Anyways....We shouldn't have to waste our time and money to go buy arrows and poisons just to keep up with the dps of other classes that don't have to. Tell me why brawlers should get to save up their money for armor/weapon upgrades when we constant have to buy stuff to keep us close to them.Rangers in eq1 did just fine with fletching easy arrows/buying merchant ones till you get EQ, it should be similar in this game.

[Thesp]

Rogue and Predator subclasses should always out dps fighter sub-classes regardless of use of poisons or arrows. We should be above fighters and below mages in terms of dps and poisons should allow us to close the gap somewhat between us and mages.

[Tr]

I agree, no reason fighters with 3k more hp than me should out dps me and have better buffs than me. Scouts are bred for dealing damage, that's the specialty all that's the best thing we'll be good at period.

[Teler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CyberEva wrote:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV>To fix ranger class</DIV> <DIV>================</DIV> <DIV>1. Allow vendor-sold arrows to hit Epic mobs. </DIV> <DIV>2. Increase all bow style damage by 300% if using player-crafted arrows. </DIV> <DIV>3. Reduce timer on storm of arrows to 45 seconds. And after the 300% damage buff, reduce damage of storm of arrows by 300% so it does the damage it does now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV>Benefits</DIV> <DIV>================</DIV> <DIV>1. Scouts can now choose to, or not to outdamage the fighter classes depending on whether if they are willing to pay for player-crafted poisons. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't want to chose if I outdamage a fighter other than by chosing to leave Autoattack off and/or not use any combat skills</FONT></DIV> <DIV>2. Predator types can choose to do more damage than the rogue-types if they are willing to pay for arrows. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why should I have to pay to outdamage a class that has more utility and same tanking than I do?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>3. Predator types can choose to do more damage than the sorcerer-types if they are willing to pay for the arrows (which IMO, they are supposed to due to zero unique ability). </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>That is what I always said: the part of our DPS that derives from payed options has to place us at top spot of DPS. The normal options will have to place us just below Sorcerers for Sony's Vision sake.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>4. With storm of arrows changed, rangers can now be distinguished from assassins for the fact that assassins do massive single target damage, while rangers do AE damage (like wizards vs warlocks, only that we have to pay).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Only that we have to pay... no, since again: We should only have to pay for what makes us better than the ones we should be similar to or even the ones that should be better than us if we do NOT pay.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>5. Fixes the woodworker class, as arrows are now worthwhile to craft, and can be sold. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In my opinion those can be fixed by being able to produce items other Adventurer classes have to buy. Why should they have such a market anyways while the other Crafter classes still have a market for only very limited products?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>6. Fixes the alchemist class, as poisons are now worthwhile to craft, and can be sold. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In my opinion those can be fixed by being able to produce items other Adventurer classes have to buy. Why should they have such a market anyways while the other Crafter classes still have a market for only very limited products?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>7. Balances the classes so that </DIV> <DIV>    a) Mage > Fighter > Scout if scouts do not use poisons. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>no, since you cannot put Scouts in one pot (e.g. Bards are clearly not intended to be direct DPS classes) and Fighters are tanks, they should not even get close to a DPS class with their DPS even if that DPS class is "only using their free skills".</FONT></DIV> <DIV>    b) Mage > Scout > Fighter if fighters use poisons. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>compared to a) this sound like "if neither Scouts nor Fighters use poisons, Fighters are better DPS, and if Fighters then use them (even if Scouts do too), Fighters are worse". Why should Fighters use poisons and become worse than Scouts? Aside from the fact that no Fighter should come close to a Pred/Rog in DPS anyways...</FONT></DIV> <DIV>    c) Predator > Sorcerer if predators choose to use arrows.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>yes</FONT></DIV> <DIV>8. No need to invent a new utility for the predator class</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>yes, as I am Predator, I am pure DPS anyways, I don't want any utility to be balanced. Utility is Rog/Bard area. If balancing Predators means to put them aside Sorcerers in DPS, then why don't just do that?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>9. No nerfs. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>nerfs are always bad....</FONT></DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>edit: typos... tired... sorry</DIV><p>Message Edited by Teleria on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 AM</span>

[Dashofpepp]

<DIV> <DIV>Hmm...I came to Everquest 2 from Lineage 2.  I had a Phantom Ranger (Dark Elf) and a Silver Ranger (Light Elf) there.  The idea of paying for dps has merit if it is applied in such a way to give you an advantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In L2 for instance, you could "kite" a mob; shoot - run, shoot - run; repeat...until the mob was dead.  The advantage to soloing was obvious; you could kill something without having to go toe to toe with it.  Mages could also kite, but not for as long; Rangers were faster.  Then they made virtually all mobs arrow-resistant and faster than a wind-walked ranger but that's another story...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point being; Paying for DPS is fine.  I'm ok with paying for dps.  However, the advantage we are supposed to get with that is lacking.  If a fighter class and I of the same level and relative gear stand next to identical mobs and turn on auto-attack --and neither of us use any skills, my mob should die first.  That's the initial flaw; it isn't happening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The paying for dps idea...poisons and arrows...should not be to bring my dps above fighters, it should be to bring it in par with mages.  Mages do a ton of damage; I can compete if I'm willing to pay for it.  That is what is lacking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mages don't pay for spell reagents.  They do a lot of damage.  They die fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts pay for arrows and poisons.  They don't do a lot of damage.  They die fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank don't pay for broken armor/weapons.  They don't do a lot of damage.  They don't die fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone else see the missing link here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV></DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dashofpepper wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>If a fighter class and I of the same level and relative gear stand next to identical mobs and turn on auto-attack --and neither of us use any skills, my mob should die first.  That's the initial flaw; it isn't happening.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think you really gotta figure in CA use in that equation, we should be able to out dmg a fighter hands down through the use of CAs alone and poisons and expensive arrows should give us an even great edge that closes the gap with mages.</DIV>

[CyberE]

<DIV>Nice insights. </DIV> <DIV><BR>Changed original post. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG Teleria ... =.= you look funny!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea is now, we can make fulginate arrows that do the damage we do now. But those are at 99 per combine. Happy? =p</DIV> <DIV>And poisons will stay the way it is now, BUT, there will be new EPIC-specific poisons that CAN hit normal mobs and do good damage BUT, BUT! They have fewer charges. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Troz, hehe I was just wondering too because this is the first 1star post I've made. =p I knew I was gonna get flamed, but as you said, this is a suggestion, and it is better than whining... correct? =)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, the plan changes with every insight you guys give me. Keep spilling them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and about the fighter > scout part, that's because you only need 2 tanks, or 3 at MAXIMUM in a 24 ppl raid. and 1 PER xp group. Com'on, give them a break. =) I am saying this because I have a paladin. OMG, paladins rock XD  Not ALL fighters will use that 3x HP. Seriously! you really only have a few ppl tanking! =.= Assassins > bersekers at least. It's just us! </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'd be ^^^ than them anyway if we use poisons. </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why not just fix the entire predator line? because I don't know how to! I want that 300% increase in bow damage, and I KNOW I won't get it without paying the price. SoEs are all freeport citizens. They were born evil. =p </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>=.= Watching legolas own a ^^^ groupx4 elephant solo in Lord of the Rings.... well... yeah, that would be a cool type of ranger. =p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dashofpepper... yeah. that is a nice trend isn't it? =p We are at the bottom of the chain. But bruisers also die in 1 hit sometimes... same with monks. It really depends on whether if the fighter is really tanking or not. IMO we should do even DPS as fighters if we don't use poisons nor arrows. But if we use poisons we are > than them, and if we use poisons AND arrows, we are > than mages. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by CyberEva on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[Teler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CyberEva wrote:<BR> <DIV>... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG Teleria ... =.= you look funny!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[GoNom]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dashofpepper... yeah. that is a nice trend isn't it? =p We are at the bottom of the chain. But bruisers also die in 1 hit sometimes... same with monks. It really depends on whether if the fighter is really tanking or not. IMO we should do even DPS as fighters if we don't use poisons nor arrows. But if we use poisons we are > than them, and if we use poisons AND arrows, we are > than mages. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Give me one good reason why a class tree that already offers more group utility (buffs + Tanking) should damage equivalent to us?  Ask yourself honestly.  Your Forming a Group/Raid, you have 2 spots to fill.  There are 2 Monks/Brawlers and 2 Assasin/Ranger looking to get in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the Fighters can already do the decent damage that a scout can do without the use of poisons, what Group/Raid leader with halfa clue would take the Predators?  I'm a Ranger and I'd take the Monks, plain and simple.  They offer enough damage sp that its usefull, plus they can offer some utility in the sence of group buffs, and some tanking ability. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So under your solution  I should change my LFG macro to:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/ooc 35 Ranger that just spent 5g on poisons and arrows LFG!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wrong, scout, no Predator damage should eclipse <STRONG><U>ALL </U></STRONG>other classes when using poisons/arrows and be just shy of Mages when not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saying the damage tree should be Mage/Scout/Fighter/Priest, is a semi-ignorant comment.  Does that mean that Chanters should out damage me?  And bards should outdamage Monks?  No is the obvious answer in both cases.  Here is a more specific breakdown of what I felt the damage tree was when we all first started playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Sorcerer</DIV> <DIV>2. Predator (#1 if Using T5 Arrows and Poisons)</DIV> <DIV>3. Rogue/Summoner (take your pick they both offer decent group utility, Mages have the pet though so I personally give the DPS nod to Rogues)</DIV> <DIV>4. Brawler</DIV> <DIV>5. Warrior</DIV> <DIV>6. Bard</DIV> <DIV>7. Crusader</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then take your pick from all Priests and Chanters, as they are not designed to deal damage, its an added bonus, they are there to increase group efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anything short of that is not a fix, it's a joke, an insulting one at that.  Making us pay just to have decent DPS is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  No other class has to dish out the coin we currently have to.  I currently spend about 5g a week in poisons, you wanna balance that out?  Make it so Wizzy's/Warlocks have to start buying player crafted reagents to use half of thier abilities, or buy Vendor one's to have the abilities cut in half.  Because, that is basically what is being done to us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that my arguing is complete let me refine your list, some points are good ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First and foremost - Give us a way to create our own T5 arrow, I'm sick of being the only class that has to finance wood crafters.  Let them sell Feyirons to Warriors.  At least make Rip give me my Fulginate arrows back.  How fricken stupid i that i get an upgraded arrow if I use crappo one's that cost nothing, and downgrades the 3g a stack arrows?  [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?  No one else wanna include that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second - Ranged CA damage needs to be increased, not alot, but some to keep us in line with where we should fall.  The amount of work it takes to get Hidden Shot off, it should do more then 200 points of Damage it does now (with Feysteel).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest problem I currently see, is most of my CA's have increased in damage only marginally since I was in my 20's - yet mobs HP and AC have gone up dramatically.  So while we are still doing decent damage it has not scaled with the difficulty of the encounters, thus by neglect has lowered our DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well thats my 2cp worth.....flame away! </DIV>