Werent scouts supposed to be the highest dps in the game?

[Dub]

<DIV>I thought our main rolls where DPS and damage avoidance (agi)  Well agi has been nerfed, I hardly ever parry or reposte anymore and mages got increased damage out put that puts me well behind them.  My reasons for playing a scout are gone now.  When will SoE fix the broken scout classes?</DIV>

[Absinth]

<DIV>And what are you basing this expectation on? Something you read from SoE, or just what you think things should be like?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I think it's perfectly reasonable to trade off some DPS for some survivability. Otherwise what would be the point of playing a mage? The idea behind a balanced system of classes is that each has different strenghts and weaknesses. You can't expect to have the ultimate DPS and still be able to tank a little.</DIV>

[CyberE]

<DIV>You can tank? what are you smoking? </DIV>

[DevlDeg]

He must be under lvl 25.

[Dashofpepp]

<DIV>Tank?  Yeah!  If all my gear is orange...I can do a decent job tanking.  I can't tank yellow two arrow up stuff, and its hard with white two arrow up stuff, but below that; with a healer to help...I can tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade your gear and your spells...and you can tank stuff your level.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fantasizing that at L30 if I get a full set of pristine feysteel and some uber jewelry that I'll even be able to solo blue double arrow up mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV>

[stainremov]

impossible. you will never be able to keep aggro with the healer spamming heals just to keep you alive. nice try though.to o.p.: devs are assessing melee dmg. as of right now, fighters have too much dps. almost all fighter classes outdmg scouts in epic encounters because they dont need power to keep their dps up. once a scout is oop (which ALWAYS happens against raid mobs), his dps drops to crap.

[Kyriel]

<DIV>actually on the eq2 guide it states that rangers would be the highest dps gamewise.read up.</DIV>

[Jay]

<DIV><FONT size=2>LOL, okay, page number please? And if you're talking about the online guide, paste a link. I gotta see this. </FONT></DIV>

[Cex]

<DIV>I tank quite well at 50. However Im most productive on single mob encounters or mutliples with an enchanter. With no taunt keeping aggro is the only issue. This isnt hard when you can concentrate on a single mob.</DIV>

[Kyriel]

<DIV>page? read ranger proffesion on the back with all the proffessions, and is the prima strategy guide</DIV>

[CyberE]

<DIV>I think the developers are doing a very good job straying away from that guide. -.-" </DIV>

[Kyriel]

<DIV>lol they are <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *smacks eva* "chicken wings yummy"</DIV>

[Whett]

I'll take the Devs word over the 'Prima strategy guide'. The Dev's word being the damage chain is Mage, Scout, Fighter Priest.

[GoNom]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fantasizing that at L30 if I get a full set of pristine feysteel and some uber jewelry that I'll even be able to solo blue double arrow up mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Keep fantasizing, because the rweality far more harsh, not only will you not be able to tank it, they will own you within seconds.  At 34 with all armor yellow/orange.  The highest I dare to solo is white solo cons, anything more is suicidal.  I tried a Green ^^ beetle in EL the other day and got to about 60% before i evac'd with 8% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need no assistance on strategy/techniques either and all my damage spells are of Adept I or higher, with everything being of App IV or higher.  I have 1884 HP unbuffed and AC around 3.5K or so.  I use nothing bet Feysteel Arrows or higher, and am telling you, without an once of doubt, that unless the mob gets struck by lightning in the middle of the fight for about 3K worth of damage, you will have absolutely no prayer of taking Blue ^^ cons down solo.  Of course this all relevent to the current mechanics of the game, it's not your skill that will determine the outcome, it's the lack of avoidance at higher levels that will plague you.</DIV>

[GoNom]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whettam wrote:<BR>I'll take the Devs word over the 'Prima strategy guide'. The Dev's word being the damage chain is Mage, Scout, Fighter Priest.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I aggree with your chain, however there should be an oerwhelming difference, in favor of scouts and mages, between the first 2 and the last 2.</P> <P>Hypothetical numbers only:</P> <P>If lvl 50 mage equal 120DPS then:</P> <P>Scout = 100dps</P> <P>Fighter = 50dps</P> <P>Priest = 20 DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>That's my opinion only of course, but its how I read the initial information leading up to release, and it is what prompted me to play a Ranger again in EQ2.  Again those numbers are hypothetical, let's not fill the thread with the customary comments of "100?  I can barely maintain 75, and mages is more like........." that kinda stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am saying that our DPS should be close to twice that of the Fighter trees.  And Mages, more specifically, Wizy's and Warlocks, shopuld be slightly higher then us, not overwhelmingly as they are now.</P>

[hieronym]

<DIV>solo and ranger should never be used together <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hieronymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>solo and ranger should never be used together <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>No offense, but you prolly aren't playing the class correctly. I solo quite efficiently actually as a 38 Ranger. At 38, we have 6 different Bow Skills at our disposal and, if done right in combo with our snare, can get them all off before entering melee. Usually, by the time something gets close enough for me to pull blade on it, it's down to 50% at least. And that's talking Even-Yellow con. Blues and greens are pretty much a joke.</P> <P>Granted, there are certain types of mobs that will DT or Enrage or have other very large opening attacks that twist the fight in their favor early on and make it almost unrecoverable, as there are also times that we'll get some resists from our Bow SKills. Not every single fight is perfect of course. I'd say around 90% of my fights with a typical Even/Yellow are easy and leave me with 50% or better health and an extra .4-.6% on my Exp Bar.</P> <P>Rangers not solo? On the contrary, we probably are some of the better solo. Surely the best solo Scout class.</P> <P>Now, resorting back to the initial post and topic... No, we're not the highest DPS class. Mages are and should be the highest DPS. I've no problem with that. Mages don't get HALF the cool skills we get. They have to walk around in pajamas and NEVER get the thrill of looking their prey in the eye as that moment of death comes to them. The guides written for EQ2 are wonderful and packed with great info about the game, world, classes, monsters, etc. But they are not written by the folks that make the game. They are 3rd party licensed folks, hired and given a nod by Sony to make the guide. Their info is not law.</P> <P>Very simply put, if you want to be able to wear heavy armor & Tank, Sneak undetected, use a bow with great skill, heal yourselfduring/after fights, cast cool and deadly nuke spells, have the fast runspeed, buff your stats, mez monsters at bay, escape certain death, Solo efficiently as well as have groups begging you to join, etc, etc, etc.... you're in the wrong game. But... If you'd like to be able to pick a few of those and do them really well, pick a Ranger.  :smileywink:</P> <P>Black</P>

[Teler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackin_DeMaster wrote:<BR> <P>...</P> <P>Now, resorting back to the initial post and topic... No, we're not the highest DPS class. Mages are and should be the highest DPS. I've no problem with that. Mages don't get HALF the cool skills we get. They have to walk around in pajamas and NEVER get the thrill of looking their prey in the eye as that moment of death comes to them. ...<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually I do have a problem with that. Both Scouts and Mages are Offensive oriented classes (apart from maybe bards and enchanters), thus neither should get into the danger of tanking, thus defense capabilities are not the main concern for the classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Ranger I can compare myself best to Sorcerer Subclasses, Wizards and Warlocks. Both Sorcerers have more utility than I have, insanely more DPS and NOT ONE restriction that is as unique as the Scout restrictions (placement and stealth that can be broken needed for attacks, need to pay for the DPS), and all that just for worse tanking and lower non-skill/spell DPS (I say lower since they CAN swing weapons)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for tanking while soloing - Mages have tools to make their tanking less needed while they can sustain their full DPS even when the mobs are facing them (which is normal for soloing). Scouts don't, at least not Predators. We have to tank the mobs toe-to-toe when soloing AND we lose a huge chunk of our DPS doing so in addition!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if SOE says that their vision is Mage/Scout/Fighter/Priest, it doesn't mean that their vision is well thought, balanced and logical.</DIV>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<DIV>Hrmmm... Been trying to figure out how best to reply to that without coming across as rude or snooty...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the time comes that I don't enjoy playing my Ranger, or feel they are so cheated compared to other classes... I'll shelf my Ranger and play that <STRONG><EM>"Grass is greener on the other side of the fence"</EM></STRONG> class that so inspires and awes me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Might I recommend you try the same?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, you're lvl 50 and I'm 38. You've seen far more content than I have and I respect that. I may very well feel differently than I do now in another 12 levels. I certainly hope not though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Black</DIV>

[Teler]

<DIV>Hmm, I hope my former post didn't arrive as an offense to you, as it wasn't intended. I just wanted to post my opinion about the point you mentioned. If I offended you, I am sorry for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point I wanted to bring accross though:</DIV> <UL> <LI>I am not enjoying pure caster classes, so their "grass can be as green as possible", I just don't have access to them. Actually my most loved class in all RPG, be they offline, online (MMORPG) or even Pen & Paper, was always something like a Paladin. The sad and always worsening state of Paladins in EQ1 made me lose faith though in SOE and their vision of that class. So I decided to go for a offensive DPS class, and with Archery being a fun and unique aspect in my opinion, I chose Ranger. Then I saw that the Rangers were </LI> <UL> <LI>"DPS Specialists" amongst the Scouts, no real or unique utility, no high tanking skills but able to survive a few hits, high DPS. I experienced Predators and up to like lvl 30 Rangers and Assassins, as kings of DPS. This I assumed would be balanced since the other pure DPS specialists (Sorcerers) had more utility and less restrictions (see below), therefore we tanked a bit better. But the DPS we had over them would come from the part we would have to pay for (Arrows / Poisons).</LI> <LI>the class with the most restrictions, we need to position ourselfes, we need to prepare certain attacks with Stealth (which can be broken by AoE etc), we need to buy Arrows and Poisons to reach the DPS we are balanced around.</LI> <LI>not yet really able to use Archery at lower levels. They had only few skills, pure archery was not intended due to arrow availability and bow delay. I thought something like Endless Quiver would come by the time I leveled, with the first expansion latest or such, since in most games where Rangers were meant to be Archers, the need for consumable arrows was nullified.</LI></UL> <LI>I am a player who enjoys certain things in the game:</LI> <UL> <LI>The end-, or uber- game since there I expect the real challenges, at least the ones I cannot overcome by higher level.</LI> <LI>The highlevel game since then no one would be able to blast me off by stating stuff like "You lowbie have no clue about blabla" and also because I would have brought the process of leveling (which I dislike) behind me.</LI> <LI>Questing.</LI> <LI>Raiding.</LI> <LI>Doing all above together with a group, raidforce, guild of other players.</LI></UL></UL> <P>Now i see that the endgame has way too many flaws (like in EQ1) and that the classes in mid- to highlevel game are in various aspects seriously unbalanced (not as brutal though as in EQ1).</P> <P>SOE failed to include the unique Restrictions into their Vision of the game when looking at the chapter of Predators and Sorcerers. Actually one can compare the classes to their ancestors from EQ1: Rogues and Wizards. Both of those rightfully claimed the spot as maximum DPS, both burst and sustained. The Wizard tanks worse but has a huge lot more utility than the Rogues, but none of both classes has to pay so much for their job (leaving aside all that both share, arrows and gate frags, gear, spell/skill scrolls). IF one would have to pay though, they could rightfully demand that the part of their DPS they actually pay for would put them above the other respective class.</P> <P>In short: The balance in these games derives from many aspects: (a little simplified)</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ff9900>Healing - DPS - Tanking - Utility - Restrictions</FONT></EM></P> <P>those also determine</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ff9900>Solo Power - Group Attractivity - Raid Value</FONT></EM></P> <P>which need to be balanced as well. But SOE left the restrictions part out... entirely... which is severly hindering the process of balancing classes.</P> <P>Also: EQ1 had the feature of balancing Specialist Classes versus Versatiliy Classes. In this aspect one has to keep in mind that the core features Healing, Tanking, DPS and Utility (here: buffs and debuffs mainly, e.g. Haste, Slow, Mez, Snare, etc.) are the features that make classes attractive for groups and raids, and that classes can substitute each other's shortcomings in a way that a Warrior/Cleric (best Tank, best Healer) could usually function better as core for a group than e.g. a Shadowknight/Druid combo (Hybrid tank and healer). A secondary tank in such a game must be able to tank 90% as good as the respective specialist tank to be worthy to be chosen to tank for a group in a <EM>challenging</EM> area. Same for healers, same for DPS classes, also: Same for Utility classes. </P> <P>The time you spend killing mobs usually in today's MMORPGs results in XP and Loot rewards. That means killing (DPS), Damage Taking (Tank) and Damage Negating (Healer) are the most important classes for either advancement. The Utility that caters those 3 core features are more usefull than any other side utility (e.g. Turning off the rain in EQ1... less usefull than e.g. Mez even if the rain would actually mean anything).</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyways though, in EQ2 the core features are balanced nicely, especially in the about pre-35 levelrange. There are some points that need to be tweaked, like Fighter / Tank DPS being higher than Scout DPS (and partly Mage DPS). This does not necessarily include Bards and Enchanters when talking about DPS classes btw. That issue is known and being worked on though.</P> <P>The issue of Mage versus Scout DPS (Pred vs. Sorc, Rog vs. Summoner, Bard vs. Enc) though is a clear misconception due to SOE having and seemingly continueing to neglect Restrictions for class balance.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sorry for this long drawn explanation, but thanks for having the breath to read through it all if you had <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<DIV>That's a good post. I'm gonna take a bit and re-read it all again here in a bit when work slows down.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[DevlDeg]

Awesome post Teleria!