(Long) Skill Comparison of Predator-based classes

[-vali]

Hello everyone, been a while since I posted, but I've done quite a bit of work I think I should bring foward. - Fistly, I play a ranger, currently level 35. My class so far, seems to lack a niche - ie. Many people consider Rangers as a utility class. As a ranger, I know this to be untrue. The only utility we provide is the basic things that every scout provides (pathfinding, evac, disarm). I began to think about what my role in a group is - what does a ranger really bring to the table? I started with a broad analysis of all classes, and tried to narrow it until I came to mine. - The are 2 fundamental classifications that all classes fall into - core classes, and 'extra' (for lack of a better word). Core classes are healers and fighters. Ever try to make a group without one of these classes? Yes, it's do-able - but not very effective. The point is, core classes lay the foundation for a group. The 'extra' classes make the group effective. For example, a group full only of healers and fighters could concievably work, but wouldnt kill thing very quickly (debatable lol), and have difficulty in a variety of situations. - When I look at the 'extra' classes, mages and scouts - I notice some themes emerging... - The way I understand it, each of the 3 kinds of scouts have a varying degree of utility at the expense of self-utlity or DPS. For example, bards have the highest group utility, but the lowest self-utility and DPS. Predators are on the other end of the spectrum - low group utility and high self-utility and DPS. Rogues being a hybrid class in the middle. - This same theme applies to mages as well. Enchaters = high group utility, low DPS and self-utility, compared to Sorcerers with high DPS, but low group utility, with Summoners in the middle.I may be wrong here, as I do not play a mage. This theory is based solely on my experience in grouping with the mage classes, and viewing the skill lists provided on the EQ2 website. - Ok, so my role seems to be that of a self-utility and DPS class. The other class that shares this role is assassin. As I purview my list of upcoming skills, and those I have already, I notice some common themes. Curiosity compelled me to compare my class with the other 'mirror' class - assassins. - With that said, I embarked on a honest comparison of a ranger to an assassin. I am frustrated with the seeming uselessness of some of my skills, and wanted to see what was on the other side. The only difference between the two classes is alignment - we're both predators. The difference should be in the execution, not effectiveness. - </i> Disclaimer: This post is not meant to incite a debate over "what class is better" but to spark discussion regarding play-balance of skills and uniqueness of class. I'm not really interested in who is the uber-DPS pwn'd j00 class. If you are, then download a parser at www.thescoutsanctuary.com and find out for yourself. There will be discussion of DPS as it relates to effectivenss of each CA, however. </i> - From the EQ2 official class page:Predator: Predators are relentless hunters who use stealth and cunning to stalk their prey. At home in the shadows, predators use the element of surprise to give their allies the upper hand.Ranger: Rangers are natural outdoorsmen and trackers, masters of stealthy movement in the undergrowth. The use perception and cunning to gain the advantage over their adversaries.Assassin: Assassins are cruel mercenaries who hunt down their prey, showing neither mercy nor compassion. The survey dark corridors for potential prey as well as hidden dangers that may be lurking ahead. - Level by Level Analysis of Skills: (note: this is all drawn from the official skill lists on EQ2.com)(format = Class / CA name / level / power / concentration / Description)Ranger Wounding Arrow 20 24 0 A ranged attack, it lowers the enemy's parry and deflection ability on hit.Assassin Cut Throat 20 24 0 An extra attack, it stifles the target on a successful hit. The assassin must be stealthed to use this ability.Verdict: These two skills are fundamentally different, one is an interrupt, the other a debuff - no use comparing apples and oranges. Ranger Makeshift Arrows 21 0 0 Creates arrows from scrap wood.Assassin Assassin's Mark 21 26 0 Creates an extremely vulnerable point on the target. If any attacks strike that point, the target takes extreme damage.Verdict: These two skills are fundamentally different, one creates arrows, the other a debuff - no use comparing apples and oranges. The only difference here is one is an attack, the other is self-utility. Ranger Shadowflame 21.6 26 0 A high fire damage stealth attack.Assassin Poisoner's Blade 21.6 26 0 A high damage stealth attack that decreases enemy poison resistance.Verdict: This is a common theme you will see during the analysis - rangers get an elemental attack, whilst assassins get an additional debuff. An elemental attack is neither a benefit nor a detriment- as some creatures will be vulnerable, and some will be resistant. The assassin's ability to reduce poison resistance is superior because it is useful in all situations, given that both skills give 'high damage'. Note that both classes rely on poison for DPS. Advantage Assassin (score: A1-R0)Ranger Steady Aim 22 0 2 Increases your ranged skill.Assassin Slip Away 22 0 0 An out of combat stealth, it also increases your movement rate.Verdict: Apples and oranges again, both are self-utility skills. Note that rangers never get a high-speed stealth, except as advanced training options - this will be discussed in the "Intangibles" section after the analysis) Ranger Corner 22.6 18 0 Decreases enemy defense. It has an extended range.Assassin Vex 22.6 18 0 Decreases enemy defense and slashing resistance.Verdict: Another common theme is that rangers have 'extended range' attacks, while assassins recieve an additional debuff. IMHO- not all ranger skills need to be ranged attacks, Rangers will still be masters of ranged combat, based solely on all their bow skills. I personally think the advantage goes to assassins here, but will not count it into the score. Rather, I'll make a modified score at the end of the analysis, to reflect this opinion. Ranger Impede 23 32 0 Decreases enemy movement speed.Assassin Caltrops 23 32 0 Decreases enemy movement speed and deals low damage.Verdict: Both skills reduce enemy movement speed, whilst the assassin's does damage, albiet low. Clearly, Advantage Assassin (score: A2-R0)Ranger Trick Shot 24 27 0 Deals damage with little hate. The next player to damage the creature will enrage the creature, generating hate.Assassin Assassin's Blade 24 27 0 Launches an attack that deals extreme damage. Assassins must be in stealth to perform this combat art.Verdict: These skills are class definers - meaning that one is a bow-only attack for rangers, and an 'assassination' type skill for assassins. From my personal experience with Trick-Arrow, it is rarely used, except in situations where I am pulling. Even in those situations, the effect is negligable if you have a decent tank in your group. Still, it is fun to use when duo'ing with a summoner, as you can taunt onto their pets. This is a relatively rare situation, and I think most people would agree that a attack that does 'extreme damage' vs. a situational taunt weighs to the damage dealing attack. Especially considering the discussion of role, at the top of this post. It is another Apples and Oranges situation, therefore, I will not count it into the score. However it will appear in the modified score at the end. Ranger Shadow Lunge 24.6 27 0 Requires stealth and a position behind the enemy. A melee attack with extra range that deals very high damage.Assassin Ebon Blade 24.6 27 0 Requires stealth and a position behind the enemy. An attack that deals very high damage and reduces piercing resistance.Verdict: Comparable skills, only difference looking like ranged vs. debuff. It will not count in the score, but if you agree with me about the issue of 'rangedness', it will be in the modified score.Ranger Natural Instinct 25 22 0 Increases ranged attack and stalk skills.Assassin Friendly Shadows 25 22 0 Increases agility and the stalk skill.Verdict: Agility affects your chance-to-hit, and your chance-to-get hit, using both ranged, and melee weapons. It also affects your power pool. Ranged attack affects your chance to hit with a bow, and your CA abilities with bows (I think?). Given that agi is the prime stat of our classes, and the limitations associated with the ranged attack skill vs. agility, Advantage Assassin (score: A3-R0)Ranger Hidden Shot 26 28 0 Deals high damage from a distance. It requires the ranger to equip a bow and be in stealth.Assassin Head Shot 26 28 0 Launches a ranged attack that ignores the target's armor. Verdict: Hidden shot kind of stinks, you would think it'd be a class defining skill for rangers... being that it's a stealth-only bow attack. However, it does much less damage than other skills, and has the longest timer of any of our attacks. I do not know how Head Shot compares, as the description isn't that useful. For that reason, I'll reserve judgement on this one - Apples and Oranges.Ranger Leaping Cut 26.6 19 0 A ranged extra attack that deals piercing damage over time.Assassin Agonizing Wound 26.6 19 0 A precise extra attack that deals piercing damage over time.Verdict: Both attacks are DoT, one is 'ranged' while the other is 'precise'. TBH, I do not know what SOE means by 'precise' in this context, and b/c both of these attacks serve the same purpose - DoT, I find them comparably equivalent. Ranger Forester's Insight 27 23 0 Increases agility and movement speed.Assassin Bleeder's Talent 27 23 0 Increases agility and attack speed.Verdict: Movement speed vs. Attack speed. One's good for running away, the other is good for making sure you do not have to run away. Clearly, Advantage Assassin (score A4-R0)Ranger Lunging Thrust 27.6 40 0 A ranged extra attack that decreases enemy defense.Assassin Insidious Cut 27.6 40 0 An extra attack that decreases enemy defense and slashing resistance.Verdict: Another instance of trading a debuff for a 'rangedness' . Will be reflected only in the modified score. Ranger Triple Shot 28 30 0 A series of three ranged attacks. If one attack misses the series ends.Assassin Hidden Assault 28 30 0 An area of effect attack. One must be in stealth to use it.Verdict: I know from experience that triple-shot is a great ability. The description of Hidden Assault does not really assist. Given that Triple Shot is useful in any situation, while HIdden assault is only really effective in group situations, here we have the fist Advantage Ranger (A4-R1)Ranger Lightning Strike 29 23 0 A quick attack that deals lightning damage.Assassin Cut 29 23 0 A quick attack that deals medium damage and does slashing damage over time.Verdict: Another instance of rangers getting an elemental attack, and Assassins getting something thats IMHO better - a DoT this time. While its arguable that an elemental attack is roughly equivalent to a debuff (in my opinion, it's not), the assassin gets more than a debuff here - DoT. Advantage Assassin (A5-R1)Ranger Sniping Shot 29.6 38 0 Requires a position behind the enemy and a ranged weapon. An extra long ranged attack.Assassin Cloaked Barb 29.6 38 0 Requires a position behind the enemy and a ranged weapon. A precise extra attack.Verdict: Description seems roughly equivalent, just different uses. Too close to call here. Ranger Rip 30 43 0 Deals damage as a ranger rips an arrow from the target and the ranger receives an arrow.Assassin Makeshift Weapon 30 43 0 Uses materials found in the assassin's surroundings to create a fragile makeshift weapon that can only be used once.Verdict: Rip is what creates decent feyiron arrows for rangers, it's a huge skill for us. I don't know if the makeshift weapon does nutty amounts of damage, given that it can only be used once, but even assuming it does - Advantage Ranger (A5-R2)Ranger Flaming Shot 30.6 45 0 Requires a ranged weapon. Launches two shots at once and deals fire damage, ignoring some enemy armor.Verdict: I did not see any 30.6 level skill listed for assassins on the webpage. If it exists, then please post a follow up. Clearly, Advantage Ranger (A5-R3)Ranger Huntsman's Trap 31 0 0 Allows stealthed movement, the ability to see hidden enemies, and snares enemies if the ranger is attacked.Assassin Murderer's Flight 31 0 0 Allows stealthed movement, the ability to see hidden enemies, and grants a burst of speed if damage is taken.Verdict: Same result, different executions, no clear winner here.Ranger Miracle Shot 32 46 0 Deals damage from a distance. It does not require line of sight.Assassin Numbing Strike 32 46 0 Launches a melee attack that roots the target on successful hit.Verdict: While miracle shot is pretty cool - it's basically a pulling trick, if you can get a target, and then lose LoS. Keep in mind that you must have LoS before you can target the creature, which pretty much kills the idea of this attack. I guess you could sneak into a room, target something, back up to a safe camp, and miracle shot it, to avoid adds. This is a pretty limited situation, and totally converse to the idea that rangers are outdoorsman (this is a dungeon pulling trick, basically useless outdoors). Being able to root a target means a preditor can hit one of those dirty backstabs, midcombat and solo. (unless the creature can rotate while rooted, im not too sure about that). Even without the ability to use Numbing strike to hit a mid-combat backstab, a rooting ability has more situations where it is useful - how many times have you been in a party where a mob needed to be mez'd/rooted, compared to a situation where a monster needs to be tagged without line of sight? Even though it is fundamentally Apples and Oranges here, the situations where a root is useful vastly outnumber the situations where a non-LoS attack is useful. Advantage Assassin (A6-R3)Ranger Adroit 32.6 46 0 Increases parry, defense, and agility, while reducing attack speed.Assassin Lethal Resolve 32.6 46 0 Increases parry, defense, and strength, while reducing attack speed.Verdict: Str vs. Agi buff here, and this skill is targetted at those situations where the preditor is tanking all of a sudden. As agi helps you avoid getting hit, Advantage Ranger (A6-R4)Ranger Pouncing Attack 33 46 0 A ranged flanking attack that deals medium damage and stealths the Ranger.Assassin Exposed Attack 33 46 0 A flanking attack that deals medium damage, increases the assassin's damage and slightly decreases defense while stealthing the assassin.Verdict: Whoa, what - same exact skill, except assassins get extra damage, and a 'slight' debuff vs. the 'rangedness' The two benefits an assassin gets with this attack outweigh the 'rangedness' situation which I do not typicall count into the official score, so Advantage Assassin (A7-R4)Ranger Spring 33.6 46 0 Requires stealth. An attack that deals medium damage to all enemies in an encounter.Assassin Slaughter 33.6 46 0 Requires stealth. A precise attack that deals damage to all enemies in an encounter.Verdict: One is 'precise' while the other is not. Otherwise identical. As stated before, I'm not sure what 'pricise' means in this context - is it more accurate? Regardless, these are close enough.Ranger Crippling Arrow 34 47 0 A ranged attack, it lowers the enemy's parry and deflection ability on hit.Assassin Slice Throat 34 47 0 An extra attack, it stifles the target on a successful hit. The assassin must be stealthed to use this ability.Verdict: Stifle vs. Debuff. Damage mitigation vs. Damage infliction. Essentially equal, I think. Ranger Raven Embers 35 47 0 A high fire damage stealth attack that reduces enemy slashing resistance.Assassin Murderous Blade 35 47 0 A high damage stealth attack that decreases enemy poison and piercing resistance.Verdict: Piercing vs. slashing resistance, essentially equal. Trading an elemental attack for poison resistance. This'll be counted in the modified score. Ranger Take Aim 36 24 0 Increases your ranged skill.Assassin Vanish 36 0 0 An out of combat stealth, it also increases your movement rate.Verdict: Apples n Oranges, both class-definers. Assassins have more stealth-required attacks, it seems, and rangers defintely have more ranged attacks. Effectively equal.Ranger Pick Off 36.6 33 0 A medium range attack that decreases enemy defense and reduces agility.Assassin Torment 36.6 33 0 Decreases enemy defense, slashing, and piercing resistance.Verdict: Agi debuff vs. slashing and piercing resistance. As discussed in one of the earlier skills, the agi-debuff will affect the target's ability to hit, as well as chance-to-hit. For these reasons, the ranger skill is superior. Advantage Ranger (A7-R5)Ranger Entrap 37 34 0 Decreases enemy movement speed and refreshes the ranger if hit.Assassin Moor 37 34 0 Decreases enemy movement speed, deals damage, and applies a minor damage shield to the Assassin.Verdict: The assassin ability deals damage, and wards, while the ranger ability refreshes the ranger if hit. Think about using this mid-combat, right before a lil kiting, coming back to combat with a minor ward attached, plus some extra damage puts you in a better position than a bit o power-refreshment. If you're out of power, you're screwed anyways. Advantage Assassin (A8-R5)Ranger Trick Arrow 38 51 0 Deals damage with little hate. The next player to damage the creature will enrage the creature, generating hate.Assassin Bloodthirster 38.6 53 0 Requires stealth and a position behind the enemy. An attack that deals very high damage, reduces piercing resistance, and interrupts the target.Verdict: Supposedly class defining, a replacement for trick-shot (with no real improvements, the descriptions are indentical) vs. 'very high damage', a pierce debuff, and a stifle. The bloodthirster has many more applications than the narrowly useful trick-arrow, and when combined with the debuffs, is clearly better. Advantage Assassin (A9-R5)Ranger Crippling Blade 38.6 53 0 Requires stealth and a position behind the enemy. A ranged attack that deals very high damage and slows enemy movement.Assassin Condemning Blade 38.6 53 0 Launches an attack that deals extreme damage. Assassins must be in stealth to perform this combat art.Verdict: Extreme damage vs. Very high damage + movement speed debuff. Considering that rangers have other methods to reduce movement speed, and how inanely useless it is to reduce movement speed in a group situation (solo? yes given, you could lead with this attack - then kite a couple bow shots. But you could also lead w/ something else, and use entrap to kite a bit. In fact, movement speed debuffs do not really add much to kiting anyways, and SOE discourages kiting anyways) the assassins have the upper hand here. Advantage Assassin (A10-R5)Ranger Primal Reflexes 39 15 0 Increases archery, ranged, and stalk skills.Assassin Murderous Intent 39 15 0 Increases agility, stalk, and assassin skills.Verdict: Identical skills, no winner here.Ranger Feral Instinct 40 45 0 Increases the damage and agility of the ranger.Assassin Murderous Focus 40 45 0 Increases the damage and piercing skill of the assassin.Verdict: As discussed before, better to increase agi than a piercing (or similar) skill. Advantage Ranger (A10-R6)Ranger Deadly Reminder 40.4 47 0 A ranged extra attack that deals piercing damage over time and decreases the agility of the enemyAssassin Seeping Wound 40.4 47 0 A precise extra attack that deals piercing damage over time and decreases the strength of the enemy.Verdict: Essentially equivalent, strength vs. agi debuff. Str is going to keep the mob hitting you/the tank less hard, whilst the agi debuff will help you get hit less often. Both are prime stats, not mere resistances. No clear cut winner here, although I would tend to have a agi-debuff rather than a str-debuff. This'll show on the modified score.Ranger Hidden Fire 40.8 71 0 Deals high damage from a distance. It requires the ranger to equip a bow and be in stealth.Assassin Assassin's Shot 40.8 71 0 Launches a ranged attack that ignores the target's armor.Verdict: These appear essentially equal, depending on how effective ignoring armor is. I honestly dont know, so I'll reserve judgement. Ranger Veil of the Forest 41 5 0 Increases agility, movement speed, and disease resistance.Assassin Merciless Villainy 41 5 0 Increases agility, attack speed, and increases damage on a successful hit.Verdict: Disease resistance? What ranger inflicts disease? We have poisons... not germs. Movement speed vs. Attack speed? Not even close, I think. Advantage Assassin (A11-R6)Ranger Survival of the Fittest 41.6 94 0 A ranged extra attack that decreases enemy defense and stamina.Assassin Infected Wound 41.6 94 0 An extra attack that decreases enemy defense, slashing, and poison resistance.Verdict: Both debuff defense, rangers lower stamina while assassins lower slashing and poison. If assassins only lowered one or the other, rangers would clearly win. However, given both classes' reliance on poisons, this one is too close to call.Ranger Triple Fire 42.6 71 0 A series of three ranged attacks. If one attack misses the series ends.Assassin Shadow Assault 42.6 71 0 An area of effect attack. One must be in stealth to use it.Verdict: Too different - Apples and oranges here again. But by the same reasoning that Triple shot won above, for rangers, this goes to Advantage Rangers (A11-R7)Ranger Blazing Thrust 43 47 0 A quick attack that deals fire and lightning damage.Assassin Lingering Blow 43 47 0 A quick attack that deals instant medium damage then slashing and crushing damage over time.Verdict: 2 kinds of elemental damage (both neither benefit or detriment) vs. 2 kinds of DoT? DoT wins. Advantage Assassin (A12-R7)Ranger Culling the Herd 43.6 72 0 Requires a position behind the enemy and a ranged weapon. An extra long ranged attack that interrupts casting.Assassin Spitting Viper 43.6 72 0 Requires a position behind the enemy and a ranged weapon. An precise extra attack that reduces enemy poison resistance.Verdict: Again, SOE uses precise in a description... cant really weigh in on the exact implications of it. However, a casting interrupt vs. a poison debuff is better for group situations. Not solo though (you see many mobs casting things while they're chasing after a kiter? Or before the encounter?) Poison debuff is universally useful, while a casting-interrupt, which is only useful when you're not tanking, is not. Too close to call, therefore.Ranger Leg Shot 44 72 0 A ranged attack, it hinders the target's movement on a successful hit.Assassin Cripple 44 72 0 An extra attack that severely lowers your target's defense technique on a successful hit.Verdict: Would you trade a movement speed debuff for a an attack that 'severely lowers' enemy defense? Advantage Assassin (A13-R7)Ranger Sharp Shot 44.4 72 0 Requires a ranged weapon. Launches two shots at once that deal fire damage, ignoring some enemy armor with a small chance to snare. Assassin Faltering Blast 44.4 72 0 Requires a ranged weapon. Launches two shots at once, ignoring some enemy armor and interrupting spells.Verdict: One is elemental, and has a small chance to snare vs. Double interrupt. If it was purely elemental w/ no snare, then the interrupt would win. Does a small chance to snare push it over the top? I think not. Advantage Assassin (A14-R7)Ranger Tear 44.8 73 0 Deals damage as a ranger rips an arrow from the target and the ranger receives an arrow.Verdict: Tear gives feyiron arrows, which were appropriate last tier. This is the point where rangers are compelled to buy arrows, if they want to maintain appropriate DPS for their tier. I am not sure if this is how it's supposed to be, or merely a bug. Yes, rangers get a skill, and assassins do not. But this skill is just as useful as Rip, which we got at level 30 - they both give the same arrows. However, I'll still give it to Advantage Rangers (A14-R<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ranger Stalk Prey 45 0 0 Allows stealthed movement and the ability to see hidden enemies. If the Ranger is damaged the enemy is reduced in speed and the ranger is granted an increased piercing resistance.Assassin Espionage 45 0 0 Allows stealthed movement and the ability to see hidden enemies. If damage is taken, the assassin is granted a burst of speed and increased agility.Verdict: This all comes down to increased agilty vs. Piercing resistance. As I have reasoned many times before, the Agi buff is more valuable. Advantage Assassin (A15-R<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ranger Dance of Leaves 46 74 0 Greatly increases parry, defense, and agility, while reducing attack speed.Assassin Creeping Impetus 46 74 0 Greatly increases parry, defense, and strength, while reducing attack speed.Verdict: As reasoned in the section where rangers won on the Adroit skill, they win here too. Advantage Rangers (A15-R9)Ranger Miracle Arrow 46.6 74 0 Deals damage from a distance. It does not require line of sight.Assassin Paralyzing Strike 46.6 74 0 Launches a melee attack that roots the target on successful hit.Verdict: Same reasoning as before, root vs. LoS. Advantage Assassin (A16-R9)Ranger Longshank 47 75 0 A medium range flanking attack that deals medium damage, grants a chance to slow movement speed, and stealths the Ranger.Verdict: Assassins really don't get a level 47 skill? Ok, if the skill list on the website is accurate, then Advantage Ranger (A16-R10). Note: This is bugged right now, an doesnt work anyways Ranger Natural Selection 47.6 76 0 Requires stealth. An attack that deals medium damage and slows the movement of all enemies in an encounter.Assassin Massacre 47.6 76 0 Requires stealth. A precise attack that deals piercing damage over time to all enemies in an encounter.Verdict: DoT vs. Yet another snare? No contest Advantage Assassin (A17-R10)Ranger Debilitating Arrow 48 77 0 A ranged attack, it lowers the enemy's parry and deflection ability on hit.Assassin Garrote 48 77 0 An extra attack, it stifles the target on a successful hit. The assassin must be stealthed to use this ability.Verdict: A stifle requiring stealth vs. a double debuff? Considering assassins have more ways to enter stealth (with better effects, mind you) - its fundamentally a question of whether a stifle outweighs 2 debuffs. I think it's close enough not to call, but reserve for the modified score.Ranger Tanglethorn 49 82 0 A high fire damage stealth attack that reduces enemy slashing resistance and has a chance to stun.Assassin Punch Blade 49 82 0 A high damage stealth attack that decreases enemy poison resistance, piercing resistance, and defense.Verdict: Slashing and piercing being essentially equal, poison resist + defense debuff vs. 'chance' to stun? The 2 defintes outweigh the 'chance' of the single stun. Advantage Assassin (A18-R10)Ranger Focus Fire 50 50 0 Increases your ranged skill.Assassin Disappear 50 0 0 An out of combat stealth, it also increases your movement rate.Verdict: Class-definers, apples n oranges.Ranger Snipe 50 64 0 A ranged attack that decreases enemy defense and agility.Assassin Anathema 50 64 0 Decreases enemy defense, slashing, piercing, and crushing resistance.Verdict: Essentially, whether a 'ranged' + agi duff outweighs a slashing, piercing, crushing debuff. Noted before, the 'rangedness' isnt a huge factor, but the agi is. But compared to a triple debuff? Too close to call.Ranger Storm of Arrows archery 50 96 0 An area of effect ranged attack, it deals great damage.Assassin Assassinate 50 96 0 Assassinate is a lethal ambush attack that can kill weaker enemies outright.Verdict: Class definers, both are apparantly awesome ;-D - IntangiblesConsider: - Rangers rely on arrows in addition to poisons (which both classes rely on).- Tear does not give appropriate level arrows. We must buy them instead, which makes our class the most costly. No other classes pay for their dps as dearly as rangers. In fact, I cant even use the feyiron ones from Rip all that often, as I'd run out, well before the end of the xp'ing party. - Ranged attacks vs. Debuff: Rangers can be masters of ranged attacks, because they have the most bow skills. We do not need essentailly melee attacks to work from a extended distance, as we are all quite used to running into and out of melee combat anyways. Considering how costly it would be to stay in ranged combat all the time (see the above point), we're always going to be running into and out of melee combat, right till level 50 and beyond. I would gladly trade some 'ranged' attacks (they dont even use the bow!) for some additional damage, debuffs, or regular buffs. Given that Assassins have less of an option to move into ranged combat - how much of an disadvantage is this? In a group situation, it's almost nicer to *not* have to go into ranged combat. Furthermore, we pay dearly for our bow-skills in terms of $$$ to be able to use them. Our skills should not be weaker, merely because they require a bow - we're already paying for that. - Rangers never get a high-speed stealth, except through advanced training. I thought we were "masters of stealthy movement" (emphasis added - from official EQ2 description). Assassins, monks, and various mages all get high speed stealths. Are they more than "masters of stealthy movement"? - Given, there is no listing of recharge timers on the EQ2.com website, where I pulled all of these skills from, and from my understanding, Assassins have some pretty lengthy ones on many of their 'assassination' skills. However, they get to also own the top 100 melee spots on their server as well. That's fair enough, IMHO. - Common theme of elemental attacks for rangers, whilst assassins get debuffs instead. Some monsters are reistant to elemental attacks, while others are weak to it. An elemental aspect of an attack is not an advantage or disadvantage, and as such, should not weigh hevier than debuffs. - Common theme of slowing movement speed. Ok, well it's nice to be able to have this skill. With that said, rangers have it in excess. Trade us some nice debuffs instead. - Recent AGI nerf - hurts us all.... hurts us all..... - Scores, Thoughts & SuggestionsSo Assassins win on the final score, with 18 to Ranger's 10. That's almost double. And that doesn't take into account the modified score, which is about 25-12 or so (didnt count precisely ;-D). Further considering the intagibles I listed, it seems clear to me that something needs to be done to make rangers more balanced, in terms of overall utility. - If any Devs are reading this, it is not a request to nerf any class, rather a request to bring our class into line with the others -Rather, I can propose some general suggestions: - Don't punish rangers so harshly for having ranged attacks. The rangedness of attacks isnt that much of an advantage, it's merely an aspect of what a Ranger is. Either: Make the attack require the bow (which we pay for) or make it a pure melee attack, with some other debuff. Please, no more movement-speed ones too. - Change some movement speed debuffs into attack-speed debuffs. While assassins can haste themselves, wouldnt it be comparable for rangers to be able to slow attack speeds? - Give assassins some elemental attacks too! Perhaps ones that are poison elemental - but dont forget to balance this skills again after! - Perhaps throw us a bone with maybe one or two attacks that do 'extreme damage' The hidden shot line is a great candidate for this - it's class defining: In stealth, long timer, and with a bow. It's ripe to do some 'extreme damage' instead of just fire elemental, for about 200 damage. We melee harder than that with shadow lunge. That's dissappointing. It's kind of boring to see that top 100 melee damage rankings just full of assassins - give the good and evil predators something to compete over. - Stay true to the vision of of the classes, and diversify: Perhaps Rangers get a natural agi buff when outside, and a detrement for being in dungeons/cities. Perhaps Assassins would get the reverse. Swash's would get a buff when close to the opposite gender, and be depressed when surrounded by people all their own gender... You get the idea. - Reduce the agi nerf. Ok, so buffing up to nutty amounts of agi allowed some scouts to tank better than others. That's fixed now. Also keep in mind that most of our skills as Rangers and Assassins take place from behind the mob. It's really hurt us bad, or solo has basically gone to crap. With the focus that SOE is doing on making the game more soloable - the reverse is happening to predators. - ConclusionEveryone's sick of people whining about their class without any real evidence or analysis. If you've made it this far, I hope you don't consider me a whiner, as I have provided evidence. You may feel another way than I do, and feel free to post criticisms, on which parts I've got wrong. But, I think the trend is clear. Rangers get elemental attacks, and lots of movement slowing attacks, at the expense of stifles, stuns, debuffs, and damage. I don't want to play an assassin, I like the RP possibilities of rangers - it suits me well. With that said, I don't desire to play a class that cannot really compete with it's evil counterpart. I will take my ranger to level 50, and deal with whatever changes come my way, I write this in hopes that some of those changes will be for the better. As fifghters and healers will never have problems finding parties (they're fundamental to groups) - the rest of us rely solely on the 'extras' we bring to the table. In my opinion, having a lot of elemental attacks, and movement speed debuffs is not really all that 'extra'. The only 'extra' we bring is are skills that other classes already have covered, like evac, pathfinding, and tracking. -Thank you for your time, and have a great day!<p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 PM</span>

[Zeijandi]

This is well done. Devs need to look at this and take note. Actually, I've asked that a dev take a look at this.<p>Message Edited by Zeijandi on <span class=date_text>02-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 PM</span>

[-vali]

Excellent! Thank you, was hoping for a little bit of developer insight ;-D

[Tr]

Its honestly getting ridiculous anymore. I'm a 45 ranger, and I was grouping at TTs in Everfrost. My group consisted of a wizard, 2 berserkers, a brigand, and a templar. Every single fight I was next to last on the dps chart. My power drained so quickly that some of the fights I was out dps'd by one of the zerkers by 120. For the mobs we were killing, everyone's damage was balanced except ours. I was using all of my abilities, I'm well equiped, and I still couldn't compete. I understand our role in groups as single mob burst damage, but rangers can't even compare anymore at this level. Even worse is on raid mobs, we either drain power so quickly or don't even do anywhere close to the dps of other classes. Wizards and warlocks are getting their fixes to completely change their class, and we're struggling to find groups. Not even mentioning our broken spells, we are seriously an unbalanced class. I'm not whining because we're not the flavor of the week class, because I'm sticking with my ranger, but give us a break please.

[Criteri]

Awesome post, pretty much agree with everything you said.Troz Said: "and we're struggling to find groups" Last 4 days I've been in 1 group and still im always looking for one. I don't know if I'm unlucky, if it's a coincidence or if people got something against Rangers but I got a zerker and a fury who are both higher lvl then my Ranger and I never ever had any problems getting a group in TS(that's where I mainly hang out, I'm lvl 24). Those times I'm LFG are often even when 2 or even 3 instances in TS are filled up and i go between instances LFG, and I still don't get any group. I try to solo in the meanwhile but we can't solo for crap. Last 4 days I've lvled once and 35% of that is from a quest which didn't involve killing anything. That isn't much compered to how much I'm on.

[Denog]

Bravo Bravo *claps right on the money with this one!We are one of the worst solo classes now yet we do not bring much to a group other classes don't do better! I really hope the powers that be take a look at this forum, and hope against hope we at least get a response that it is being looked at.Compared to some of the other class forums we Rangers have not complained nearly as often or with as much venom.

[GriftyMcGrift]

<DIV>5 Stars. Great read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was checking out some of the skills on <A href="http://www.thescoutssanctaury.com/" target=_blank>www.thescoutssanctaury.com</A> and a few of the ranger skills have longer timers than the asassins, exepct for their big attacks. Check out ranger 28 Triple shot 60sec vs. Assassin 28 Hidden assault 30 sec. I would be happy if we could just get some self hastes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by GriftyMcGrift on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Fingolfin2]

<DIV>Excellent comparison! Rangers have to work hard and pay alot to keep their dps in groups. Defineately the most expensive class to play. Some of our important skills (longshank, Natural selection, Tear) are clearly broken. Those buffs that are suppose to increase movement speed along with agility do not do anything to movement speed either. <BR><BR>The class is playable but broken enough and unbalanced that we are not reaching the potential of our predator brethran or rouges for that matter who have better utility. The Devs certainly need to look at this. </DIV>

[sjaste]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sjastein on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[sjaste]

<DIV><BR> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sjastein on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[sjaste]

<DIV>quote "Ranger Huntsman's Trap 31 0 0 Allows stealthed movement, the ability to see hidden enemies, and snares enemies if the ranger is attacked.<BR>Assassin Murderer's Flight 31 0 0 Allows stealthed movement, the ability to see hidden enemies, and grants a burst of speed if damage is taken.<BR>Verdict: Same result, different executions, no clear winner here." end quote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that Assassins have it better here as if a group of 2+ mobs jump you then you only snare one of them whereas assassins run away faster. My only sugestion for fixing this is AoE snare within the encounter.</DIV> <DIV>That is what I think you may think otherwise.<BR></DIV>

[-vali]

Yes, I did treat this as a 'all enemies snared in the encounter' type effect.... it does say 'snares enemies' instead of 'enemy' - is it bugged perhaps?So, it's only one monster? The one that hits you? If so, then it too would be unbalanced...<p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 PM</span>

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>Great post. There has been alot of complaining from those who love the mage classes and they get fixed. Their spells/skills are being upgraded. The fact is all skil/spells from every class need a real hard look and many fixes. I play a Zerker, Monk and Ranger. I would prefer to play my ranger more, but it is so dam hard to get a group with him. I have been very dissapointed with the outcome that is real with the class and the bogus one definied by SOE. Rangers have no advantages. Not one. In fact the class has many disadvantages. Developers really need to focus on the scout classes with the next big patch. All the shadow strike line of skills rarely work. So many other skills depend on this skill working. When it don't work the others are useless. This class has so many skills/spells that don't make it to my hot bar simply because personal testing have proven total ineffectiveness. What SOE creates is not what they say they create. They have a credability problem. I hope they stop the false analysis and start making true statements about all classes and what their place is in the game world. There are so many balance problems in this game they should take another deep look at every class and fit them in where they belong. If Rangers are supposed to be high dps then give them the tools to make them high dps. Rangers shouldn't have to rely on poisons for extra damage. They already have to pay for arrows. The extra damage should be inate and not cost anything.</DIV>

[Bromious]

<DIV>One thing I have noticed about Adroit is that it (the Agi boost) will not stack with my Forresters Insight. Which of course is up constantly. My current unbuffed agi is 121 and 147 with Forresters up. I noticed using Adroit grants me a 7 agi bonus (only at app2 btw) with Forresters down. The defense and parry bumps are nice if you happen to get aggro.  I'm still on the fence as to its worth as a skill. I may be wrong, have been plenty of times before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: added something minor after I read it.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Bromious on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Atilis Wulfbyte]

sticky this post please

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Excellent post. I would also recommend SOE read this thread. Rangers do need help. I wanted to be an assassin originally but did not read the manual about having to go Evil in order to do that... So... I am stuck a ranger. And to express my displeasure in them, I started a Dirge who is getting up in level quite quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just think that the Ranger is lacking in so many ways... we're of the Predator line but we don't do damage like a Predator... especially at later levels. Then you have the utility of the Ranger... Ok, name one skill I have that every other scout doesn't.... waiting.... waiting.... Ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, then it HAS to be damage... more so... damage with a bow. So get a good bow, I have Stormfire (at lvl 31). Its a pretty kickass bow. I hit pretty hard but not nearly as hard as I do with my BLUE steel rapier with Shadow Lunge. Compare Hidden Shot, Sniping Shot, hell, even Triple shot. All of them are not as much. Unbelievable. So basically, I am a crappy predator who has a good bow. *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I'm venting. This has been a frustration of mine from the beginning. Wanna know what's worse? I am a Ranger and a Carpenter. Gosh, I should just delete my character. *shakes head*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some remarks on the excellent post:</DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ff00>"Common theme of elemental attacks for rangers, whilst assassins get debuffs instead. Some monsters are reistant to elemental attacks, while others are weak to it. An elemental aspect of an attack is not an advantage or disadvantage, and as such, should not weigh hevier than debuffs."</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>I don't know if I understand this statement. First off, if you are saying that elemental attacks are equal to debuffs, then I strongly disagree. An elemental attack in a group situation means I get to hit with extra damage. A debuff in a group situation means that everyone gets to hit with extra damage. Thus, it increases the overall DPS of the group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ff00>"Don't punish rangers so harshly for having ranged attacks. The rangedness of attacks isnt that much of an advantage, it's merely an aspect of what a Ranger is. Either: Make the attack require the bow (which we pay for) or make it a pure melee attack, with some other debuff. Please, no more movement-speed ones too."</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Strongly agree. I remember EQ1 where Rangers were a mix of druid and warrior. I'm not suggesting to look back at EQ1... but for crying out loud, we suck. There are *NO* rangers in the top 100. And if there are, they are not in the top 10. I don't mind. I still rule DPS in my groups... but then again, I have never grouped with an Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><EM>"Perhaps throw us a bone with maybe one or two attacks that do 'extreme damage' The hidden shot line is a great candidate for this - it's class defining: In stealth, long timer, and with a bow. It's ripe to do some 'extreme damage' instead of just fire elemental, for about 200 damage. We melee harder than that with shadow lunge. That's dissappointing. It's kind of boring to see that top 100 melee damage rankings just full of assassins - give the good and evil predators something to compete over. "</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agreed. I have been relatively disappointed with our bow skills as compared to our basic predator skills or the comparable skills of the Assassin. Really disappointed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, with all that said, give us a bit more utility in the group. We don't have utility. Even an ASSASSIN has utility in that they can debuff targets, slow their attack speed, etc... What do we get? Snares (which I personally only use when pulling/kiting).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, that's all for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur</DIV>

[-vali]

Quoting:"Common theme of elemental attacks for rangers, whilst assassins get debuffs instead. Some monsters are reistant to elemental attacks, while others are weak to it. An elemental aspect of an attack is not an advantage or disadvantage, and as such, should not weigh hevier than debuffs."I don't know if I understand this statement. First off, if you are saying that elemental attacks are equal to debuffs, then I strongly disagree. An elemental attack in a group situation means I get to hit with extra damage. A debuff in a group situation means that everyone gets to hit with extra damage. Thus, it increases the overall DPS of the group.(/end quote)I was saying that elemental attacks are not as good as debuffs - good point about debuff's being helpful to the whole party. In the comparison I did, it seems like rangers are often traded an elemental element, instead of a debuff, which assassins get. I further stated that an elemental aspect of an attack could be a potential disadvantage (as well as advantage... or neither) about half the time.Basically, we agree. =)<p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class="date_text">02-14-2005</span><span class="time_text">05:44 PM</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span><p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span><p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 PM</span>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Sounds like we do. And I also agree that elemental attacks are neither an advantage or disadvantage... However, with one caveat, I believe that, in later levels, mobs will get higher and higher resistances to the elements. This means that even the advantage gained from the attacks would eventually fade away while the advantage of debuffs always lasts (removing resistances is always a benefit).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I believe the reason I keep bringing this up is to reinforce your analysis to the extreme. The situations that you decided to consider at the end, I would have considered throughout the process. Essentially, the score would be closer to the 25-12 then the 18-10.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At any rate, I completely agree with your analysis and felt it important to reinforce your statements a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur, Neriak</DIV>

[Gavranch]

<DIV>First off, I tend to agree with you on the elemental thing.  But there two contrary points that I feel that I must bring up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, while any single attack when not knowing the resistances of the mob may result in a 'break even' (meaning that because it's an unknown that you're just as likely to to lower, as normal, as extra damage to a mob), this is not the case in practice.  It is a false assumption because, as players, we generally do know the resistances of the mob we are attacking.  Because we know that we have the ability to use abilities that we *know* have a good chance of doing extra damage and avoiding using abilities that are a waste of power.  As a result, by having a variety of attacks that deal a variety of elemental damage, we can effectivly increase our DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, in my experiance magic and poison resistance are the highest in your average player and average mob.  In order to get poison to proc debuffs are almost necessary.  While Rangers do not get this ability (currently, my DOT-heavy posion DDs for about 50, and then procs for around 20 4 times for around 120 damage), we do get the elemental attacks which can be used intelligently.  My elemental attacks (Shadowflame and Lightning Strike, currently. I'm lvl 29) recycle in about 9 seconds and hit for around 150 for the flame and 110 for the strike... to make my point work I need to find mobs that have low resists and normal resists so I can see if the 'smart use' damage actaully gets up to the poison damage.  I'll let you know.  But right now, it's worth considering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, this is an isolated instance and not a rule, but there are good uses for ranged attacks.  Mostly in Raid or bosses with AoE attacks.  As an example, in Nek Castle there's a 45 demon that spawns, but he's rooted in place.  He can attack, and you can attack him, but he can't move (whether this changes as he nears death, I don't know).  The mage and I were able to hurt him from afar, though.  Got him down almost 10% before we called it quits to finish other quest.  But it was promising.  OUr tank got near him to try and hit him and almost died in one hit.  What we need is a mage that can cast a root that doesn't break when the mob is attacked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-vali]

I see where you're going with your ideas on elemental attacks, but in practice, it's a different story. I would agree with you if we had more options, as far as 'what element to use'. We don't. We have lightning and fire. If you come accross a mob that has high fire resist, are you simply not going to use your fire-based skills? I doubt it. For example, consider lightning strike. The mob is heavy resist to lightning. Are you going to not-use lightning strike? No. Why? Because you have nothing else to use in it's place. If you had 4 different skills, all effectively equal to lightning strike, but consisting of various elements, like fire, cold, disease, poison, (etc) all of which were on the same timer, then and *only* then would the 'elemntal' aspect of the attack become useful. Because you would have the opportunity to 'play smart'. The grim truth is, we don't have that opportunity. If the mob can resist fire and lightning, rangers are effectively 'up the creek'. We do not have a way to 'play smart' because we have no option to use different elements in place of fire or lightning. The only option you have is: 1. To use the elemental attack or 2. Don't. I certainly am not going to use a greyed out 'pierce' in place of lightning strike, even when the mob resists lightning. Pierce still wont do as much damage. An option between using an old grey non-elemental skill and using a current elemental skill is not a effective choice. Perhaps when solo, it's arguable that you have the choice to pick prey that's vulnerable to your elememts. This reasoning fails on a couple points: - Quest mobs: no choice here, eh? - Scouts are intended to facilitate group combat, it's what we do best. In groups, you do not have an option to pick your prey. "Hey guys, that named dragon resists fire, lets go do some scarecrows instead" doesn't cut it in groups. - Rangers would be limited to picking certain prey, in order to recieve the 'benefit' of an elemntal attack, while the assassin's additional debuff does not impose that limitation. - Assassins debuffs work for the benefit of the entire party, everyone benefits from lower def, agi, resists, etc, while only the elemental attack has a possibility (rather than guarantee) of effectiveness. It also has a corresponding possibility of non-effectiveness as well.The key here is that the elemental aspect of an attack is not an benefit by itself. A benefit would be a choice among which element to use. We don't have that choice, therefore we do not have the corresponding benefit.

[-vali]

w00p! double post! my bad ;-D<p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 PM</span>

[Araze]

<DIV>5 stars</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont see how any warrior should outDPS a predator, a predator who also have to pay lots in order to maintain the minimum of DPS (poison and good arrows)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers need:</DIV> <DIV>-Increased DPS</DIV> <DIV>-Lowered cost of good arrows, or make tear generate fulginate</DIV> <DIV>-A unique classs defined skill (like superior tracking, quick evac, superior pathfinding)</DIV>

[Milig]

<DIV>Excellent points. I'd also love more DPS.</DIV>

[xandez]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arazeth wrote:<BR> <DIV>5 stars</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont see how any warrior should outDPS a predator, a predator who also have to pay lots in order to maintain the minimum of DPS (poison and good arrows)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers need:</DIV> <DIV>-Increased DPS</DIV> <DIV>-Lowered cost of good arrows, or make tear generate fulginate</DIV> <DIV>-A unique classs defined skill (like superior tracking, quick evac, superior pathfinding)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>couldnt agree more, this IS kinda silly that we have to pay for our DPS and still we get oudps:ed by classes that dont <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR><BR>++Xan<p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[TheWays]

<DIV>Three stars from me, and all that is for effort.  While it is a "decent" comparison between the two classes, I feel that there is simply way too much information left out for this to be a true comparison, let alone one that should dictate some sort of developer action.  The information missing is a comparison of damage range, debuff amount, and recast time.  Something else that was excluded from your comparison was the fact that 80% or more of all assassin arts can only be performed while stealthed and/or from behind/flanking the mob.  Its seems to be somewhat the opposite for rangers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something else that should be mentioned is that alot of the basis of comparison between the two skills listed as well as the reasons for awarding your "score" is blatantly uninformed.  Many of these arts are simply broken or do not perform the actions listed in the art description.  Assassins Mark, until recently, did absolutely nothing.  Now it does create a chance for <U>anyone</U> to hit the mob for additional damage, yet drains the assassin of about 20 power for each "proc".  The only way to yield this benefit is for the assassin to <STRONG>stay </STRONG>in stealth for the duration of the fight.  Murderers Flight offers no runspeed buff upon breaking, nor does it offer the "see hidden" component outlined in its description. This a couple examples, the truth is that most of the arts in your comparison offer little if any benefit toward an encounter that would sway its outcome one way or another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I understand the intention of this post was not to cause some sort of subclass debate, its kinda inevitable when you paint your subclass as the balance victim of your class.  If rangers want to be able to do all the things that are listed as assassin arts, guess what - so do assassins :smileywink:.  I do think that its inconvenient that rangers have to spend more money than any other class because of arrows, but thats just the way it goes.  If you can put forth a comparison that shows the damage, recast timer, and amount of effect for each art while still taking into consideration other factors (range that rangers need to be at to complete the art, need for stealth, need for placement) then I believe that would be something worth 5 stars.  Even if the comparison is only theoretical (actual effects may vary) then it would still something unrefutable and very much worth considering.  As this comparison stands now, it sounds like nothing more than "this is how I think assassin arts work and its unfair" post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One more thing, assassins above lvl 35 simply cannot group together.  I'm not sure if rangers have the same problem, but because of the debuff effects of our arts only one may be active on the mob at a time.  This cuts the second assassins dps down considerably.  While I'm sure rangers do need some help with their class, please don't look across the fence at assassins for answers/benchmarks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-=An assassins opinion=-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Artr]

I think is a great post. However, in regards to the elemental attacks, I would ask the question, "Is there a bonus or penalty for the attack?" I'm not the hihgest ranger but from what I've seen (and now with the new spell discriptions)it doesn't look like there are. There is a set damage and that is that. The only thing that would make a difference would be a defense debuff or something along those lines.

[Fingolfin2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWays wrote:<BR> <DIV> As this comparison stands now, it sounds like nothing more than "this is how I think assassin arts work and its unfair" post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One more thing, assassins above lvl 35 simply cannot group together.  I'm not sure if rangers have the same problem, but because of the debuff effects of our arts only one may be active on the mob at a time.  This cuts the second assassins dps down considerably.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-=An assassins opinion=-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Since you are an assassin why not comment each skill with your own analysis? A comparison of 1 person who has played both classes is impossible at this point in the game. <BR><BR>There are a few ranger skills that do not work with another ranger in a group. I imagine the skills are comparable to the Assassin ones. <BR>

[TheWays]

<DIV>I would happily Fingolfin, but the comparison would probably take weeks to compile and would have been impossible without the new spell descriptions that have been added (even though some may be erroneous I believe it is a fair basis of comparison).  If I have the free time it would be something I would do, however, I don't think I have the drive that the OP had to complete such a daunting task (why would an assassin want to compare his combat arts to some treehugging hippie with a bow :smileyvery-happy: ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to answer about the elemental damage questions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When an assassin performs a regular melee damage combat art it checks against the mobs AC which is derived from various sources (defense skill, armor, etc). The value of the AC dictates the amount of damage that is actually done to the mob.  Elemental attacks that rangers, wizards, etc perform work slightly different.  Instead of checking against the melee AC of a mob, it checks against the elemental resistance of a mob.  If that resistance is natural low, or has been debuffed - the art can do close to 100 percent damage every time.  And in general, resistances (AC versus poison, fire, cold, mental, etc) are much much lower than melee AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Assassin Fred uses Deadly Shot against an Ice Giant doing 70% maximum damage for that art because the rest is mitigated by the giants AC.</DIV> <DIV>-Ranger Barney uses Flaming Shot against an Ice Giant doing 90% of the maximum damage for that art because the giant has a naturally low AC versus Fire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If both arts have the same recast time, power usage, and max damage the ranger would easily beat out the assassin over time because its less resisted damage.  The downside is that a certain creature may be highly resistant to a certain type of attack (elemental in this case) and end up doing less damage than a pure melee attack.  Again, however, resistances are generally much lower than melee AC values on any given subject and easy to debuff (its much easier to cut fire AC in half than melee AC).</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Ok, I've done this much. I'm a level 32 Ranger. I have created a list of skills that I have and their actual effects (along with my current tier of them app1, app2, adpt1, etc...) and their current power usage. I also have included casting and reuse times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I need an Assassin to fill in the missing details for the chart so we can do some sort of comparison. I realize a lot of abilities say certain things but might not actually *do* those things, I have included what I could from the descriptions of the skills as they are IN MY knowledge book. I also admit that the damages in my knowledge book are higher than my average hit for them (which I gathered from using a parser on my log files). The skills usually mentioned upwards of 100 more damage then what I was ACTUALLY doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, here it is.</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/image_view.vm?imageId=255834" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/image_view.vm?imageId=255834</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Oh, and to detail some of my findings...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would appear that at App1, assassins and rangers basically use the same cast, recast and power for similar abilities. I would be interested in knowing how the gap widens when skills are upgraded to different tiers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also mentioned was the Assassin's reliance on Stealth and Flanking attacks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at the spreadsheet, Assassins require Stealth in 8 abilities, Flank position in 2 abilities and both in 1 (ebon blade).</DIV> <DIV>The Ranger requires Stealth in 4 abilities, flank position in 1 ability and both in 1 (Shadow Lunge).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranger abilities have the highest recast time of 600 seconds for Makeshift Arrows and Natural Instinct. We share the Assassin highest recast time of 300 seconds for Steady Aim.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It should be noted that while the Assassin requires stealth in 8 abilities, one of these is considered a bug (assassin's mark) that requires stealth but doesn't say that it requires stealth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, just wanted to keep this going. Gonna get back to work now. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur</DIV>

[TheWays]

<DIV>This has been discussed on other forums as well.  The reason that you are actually doing a significantly lower amount of damage than is listed (at times around half) is because of the AC values of the mobs.  It seems that even with considerable debuffing of the mobs, the actual amount of damage that hits the target is still off by a great margin.  This most notably affect melee classes unfortunately.  Something else that should be considered is the way that arts work at various levels.  When you get a new art and it is orange it will do remarkably less damage than when it is white lower (just like weapons).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that comparing actual spell data listed on the arts is a fair comparison since mob levels and AC values can radically change from mob to mob.  </DIV>

[TheWays]

<DIV>By my count assassins require stealth in 13 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Cut Throat (lvl 20)</DIV> <DIV>- Poisoners Blade (lvl 21)</DIV> <DIV>- Assassins Blade (lvl 24)</DIV> <DIV>- Hidden Assault (lvl 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>- Slaughter (33)</DIV> <DIV>- Slice Throat (34)</DIV> <DIV>- Murderous Blade (lvl 35)</DIV> <DIV>- Condemning Blade (lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>- Shadow Assault (lvl 42)</DIV> <DIV>- Massacre (lvl 47)</DIV> <DIV>- Garrote (lvl 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>- Punch Blade (lvl 49)</DIV> <DIV>- Assassinate (lvl 50)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>flanks in 4 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Cloaked Barb (lvl 29)</DIV> <DIV>- Exposed Attack (lvl 33)</DIV> <DIV>- Killer Instict (lvl 43)</DIV> <DIV>- Mask of Night (lvl 47)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and both in 2 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Ebon Blade (lvl 24)</DIV> <DIV>- Bloodthirster (lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers require stealth in 7 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Shadowflame (lvl 21)</DIV> <DIV>- Hidden Shot (lvl 26)</DIV> <DIV>- Spring (lvl 33)</DIV> <DIV>- Raven Embers (lvl 35)</DIV> <DIV>- Hidden Fire (lvl 40)</DIV> <DIV>- Natural Selection (lvl 47)</DIV> <DIV>- Tanglethorn (lvl 50)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>flanks in 3 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Sniping Shot (lvl 29)</DIV> <DIV>- Culling the Herd (lvl 43)</DIV> <DIV>- Longshank (lvl 47)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and both in 2 combat arts:</DIV> <DIV>- Shadow Lunge (lvl 24)</DIV> <DIV>- Crippling Blade (lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also left out Assassins Mark since it hasn't worked at all until recently so I'm not sure its even working as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's a more detailed comparison of recast timers, I only included those of like effects (damage dealing) with different timers and of the same level:</DIV> <DIV>Lvl xx) Rangers , Assassins</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 20) Wounding Arrow - 30 secs , Cut Throat - 60 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 24) Trick Shot - 60 secs, Assassins Blade - 300 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 26) Hidden Shot - 90 secs, Head Shot - 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Triple Shot - 60 secs, Hidden Assault - 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 33) Spring - 30 secs, Slaughter - 10 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 34) Crippling Arrow - 30 secs, Slice Throat - 60 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Trick Arrow - 60 secs, Condemning Blade - 300 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Crippling Blade - 30 secs, Bloodthirster - 10 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 40) Deadly Reminder - 30 secs, Seeping Wound - 10 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 40) Hidden Fire - 90 secs, Assassin Shot - 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 41) Survival of the Fittest - 10 secs, Ignore Wound - 20 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 42) Triple Fire - 60 secs, Shadow Assault - 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 44) Leg Shot - 10 secs, Cripple - 180 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 47) Longshank - 10 secs, Mask of Night - 40 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Debilitating Arrow - 30 secs, Garrote - 60 secs</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 49) Tangelthorn - 30 secs, Punch Blade - 10 secs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At lvl 50 Rangers get an AoE attack (300 secs) and single target attack and debuff (10 secs) while assassins get a "massive" single target attack on a 1hr timer.  I left out casting times since there were rarely any discrepencies that amounted to over half a second.  I left out the "utility" spells since they appear at different levels and are usually personalized to the subclass.  While there are some differences between the class that give them a bit of individuality, many of the combat arts are on the same timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: all art descriptions were taken from The Scouts Sanctuary. Added Slice Throat and Garrote to the list of Assassin sneak attacks, since they are listed as requiring sneak on the official website (though that information has been unreliable in the past).</DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWays on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 AM</span>

[-vali]

A couple rebuttals, for fairness' sake...<blockquote><hr>TheWays wrote:<DIV>"Three stars from me, and all that is for effort. While it is a "decent" comparison between the two classes, I feel that there is simply way too much information left out for this to be a true comparison, let alone one that should dictate some sort of developer action. The information missing is a comparison of damage range, debuff amount, and recast time."...and I quote from my original post:"- Level by Level Analysis of Skills:<STRONG>(note: this is all drawn from the official skill lists on EQ2.com)</STRONG>(format = Class / CA name / level / power / concentration / Description)" - Agreed, I would have loved to have damage, debuff amount and recast when I wrote this, but it was before the patch, and all I had to work with was SOE's official skill listings. I mentioned it a couple times even......from the original post:"- Given, there is <STRONG>no listing of recharge timers on the EQ2.com website,</STRONG> where I pulled all of these skills from, and from my understanding, Assassins have some pretty lengthy ones on many of their 'assassination' skills. However, they get to also own the top 100 melee spots on their server as well. That's fair enough, IMHO.""<STRONG>- From the EQ2 official class page: </STRONG>Predator: Predators are relentless hunters... ""Something else that was excluded from your comparison was the fact that 80% or more of all assassin arts can only be performed while stealthed and/or from behind/flanking the mob. Its seems to be somewhat the opposite for rangers."80%? Really? are you sure about that? - Note that assassins also seem to have more ways to get into stealth. - Note that rangers also deal with a large amount of skills requiring stealth and position"Something else that should be mentioned is that alot of the basis of comparison between the two skills listed as well as the reasons for awarding your "score" is blatantly uninformed."Ouch! Blantantly uninformed? Eeep! - I became as informed as I could be at the time, instead of just saying "Oh assassins are uber, I want to be uber too" - Short of levelling a assassin to level 50, there is no other way for me to gain this information, other than SOE's official stuff. "Many of these arts are simply broken or do not perform the actions listed in the art description. Assassins Mark, until recently, did absolutely nothing. Now it does create a chance for <U>anyone</U> to hit the mob for additional damage, yet drains the assassin of about 20 power for each "proc". The only way to yield this benefit is for the assassin to <STRONG>stay </STRONG>in stealth for the duration of the fight. Murderers Flight offers no runspeed buff upon breaking, nor does it offer the "see hidden" component outlined in its description."There are several ranger skills that are broken as well. I'm not interested in which class has the most/least bugs, I'm interested in balance, which has nothing to do with which skill is or is not currently bugged. "This a couple examples, the truth is that most of the arts in your comparison offer little if any benefit toward an encounter that would sway its outcome one way or another." Here are a couple of the more unbalanced ones, from my original post, which could easily make a huge difference in an encounter:Ranger Trick Shot 24 27 0 Deals damage with little hate. The next player to damage the creature will enrage the creature, generating hate.Assassin Assassin's Blade 24 27 0 Launches an attack that deals extreme damage. Assassins must be in stealth to perform this combat art.Ranger Forester's Insight 27 23 0 Increases agility and movement speed.Assassin Bleeder's Talent 27 23 0 Increases agility and attack speed.Ranger Miracle Shot 32 46 0 Deals damage from a distance. It does not require line of sight.Assassin Numbing Strike 32 46 0 Launches a melee attack that roots the target on successful hit.Ranger Pouncing Attack 33 46 0 A ranged flanking attack that deals medium damage and stealths the Ranger.Assassin Exposed Attack 33 46 0 A flanking attack that deals medium damage, increases the assassin's damage and slightly decreases defense while stealthing the assassin.Ok, well you did say "most"... Im not OK with being 'mostly' up to par with assassins' utility..."While I understand the intention of this post was not to cause some sort of subclass debate, its kinda inevitable when you paint your subclass as the balance victim of your class. If rangers want to be able to do all the things that are listed as assassin arts, guess what - so do assassins :smileywink:. I do think that its inconvenient that rangers have to spend more money than any other class because of arrows, but thats just the way it goes. "Fair enough"If you can put forth a comparison that shows the damage, recast timer, and amount of effect for each art while still taking into consideration other factors (range that rangers need to be at to complete the art, need for stealth, need for placement) then I believe that would be something worth 5 stars."Geez, demanding. This original one took me about 4 hours to do... And you want me to do more? Yikes. How bout you get me started and post all the relevant detailed information from the assassin class, or a link to where I can find it. "Even if the comparison is only theoretical (actual effects may vary) then it would still something unrefutable and very much worth considering. As this comparison stands now, it sounds like nothing more than "this is how I think assassin arts work and its unfair" post."Well, yeah. It is that kind of post. And it is pure theory. I never put up numbers, or parsed, or any of that stuff. All my analysis is focused on SOE's description, nothing more or less. Nor did I claim otherwise. "One more thing, assassins above lvl 35 simply cannot group together. I'm not sure if rangers have the same problem, but because of the debuff effects of our arts only one may be active on the mob at a time. This cuts the second assassins dps down considerably."Yeah, we have that problem too."While I'm sure rangers do need some help with their class, please don't look across the fence at assassins for answers/benchmarks."...From the original post:"- Ok, so my role seems to be that of a self-utility and DPS class. The other class that shares this role is assassin. As I purview my list of upcoming skills, and those I have already, I notice some common themes. Curiosity compelled me to compare my class with the other 'mirror' class - assassins.""- If any Devs are reading this, it is <STRONG>not a request to nerf any class,</STRONG> rather a request to bring our class into line with the others -"</br></blockquote></hr>Oh, and for that last post:Rangers require stealth in 6 combat arts:- Shadowflame (lvl 21)- Spring (lvl 33)- Raven Embers (lvl 35)- Hidden Fire (lvl 40)- Natural Selection (lvl 47)- Storm of Arrows (lvl 50) Add in: - Hidden shot - TanglethornDoes storm of arrows require it? Dont think soflanks in 3 combat arts:- Sniping Shot (lvl 29)- Culling the Herd (lvl 43)- Longshank (lvl 47) Add in: - Pouncing attack - Natural Selectionand both in 2 combat arts:- Shadow Lunge (lvl 24)- Crippling Blade (lvl 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by -valis- on <span class=date_text>02-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:01 AM</span>

[TheWays]

<DIV>While I understand that you may feel upset about my criticism of your post, I hope that you at least understand its validity.  It was not my intention to hurt your feelings or discredit you and I don't expect you to provide any sort of service to the community like the one I requested and as all the posters before mine should attest - your work is appreciated.  I'm actually trying to help compile a list for this request in bits and pieces in my spare time which is why I have followed up to this post so much.  I'd really like to see a database of spell effects much like the Lucy database used by allakhazams, since SoE has decided that its only fair to list the exact spell data on the art (which is a godsend) hopefully one will emerge in the near future.  I'd also like to add that I am really just trying to dispell rumors and myths about class characteristics as well as help out other players that might not have as secure a grasp on game mechanics as us old veterans.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In general I will almost always disagree with anyone that compares their class to another.  We are a DPS class and we do share a lot of the same roots, but we are still two completely different classes with different styles and different characteristics.  While I agree that our dps/utility should be fairly equivalent, I don't think that we should achieve this in the same way (otherwise, whats the point of two different classes :smileywink: ).  The reason that I disagreed with your post more specifically though was because of the general lack of information given.  Any player could go to a list of class arts and compare them and likely come to about the same conclusions based on descriptions, the problem I find in your post is that you share a generally uninformed opinion and actually use it as a sort of rating system on which class is better.  I don't expect you to play an assassin to lvl 50 so you can directly compare the effectiveness of the classes, but I also don't think you should definitively rank each combat art for assassins.  I feel that if you posted something more than what one could garner by browsing combat arts at whichever site you please, it would have been a very useful tool for the community and developers alike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the corrections listed for the spell timers and requirements, Tanglethorn is supposed to be where Storm of Arrows is (case of the fingers moving faster than the eyes), and I guess I simply missed Hidden Shot.  Stealth is the only requirement for Natural Selection and I'm not finding Pouncing attack anywhere in the art list at thescoutssanctuary, did you mean Pounce? I left off all the Predator and Scout skills because we share those anyway and the only requirement for Pounce and all its derivatives is stealth, not flanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. I'm not about class superiority and while I'd like assassins to be the best class in the game, I'd rather them be a balanced class that can fill a sought after niche in groups, raids, and even solo.  The one thing that drives me nuts is when I see someone post that x class can do y, so their class should do y as well.  I don't want any class to be just like another one, I want them both to be their own class and while they may share alot of fundamental skills and qualities they do their jobs in their own way.  If rangers are hurting in the dps department, I sincerly hope that they get an appropriate boost.  If they don't provide enough group utility or raid benefits, I hope they find something there as well.  I'm not married to my assassin, but I do enjoy playing him.  Something I enjoy more, however, is simply playing the game reguardless of the class or faction I'm playing and I'd like every class to be just as enjoyable as the next.</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>The Ways,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fairly decent responses... I appreciate your candor in the matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some points I wanted to touch on... in your post response to mine, you put a list of skills together saying they compare, however, you only assume that their description compares. I wanted to respond to them:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The useful ness of Assassin's Blade is superior to the Trick Shot (I don't think I have found a situation where I could use Trick Shot successfully and its damage is laughable). You are correct about Hidden Shot, looked it up and it is 90 seconds... sorry about that. You also fail to mention power consumption of some of the abilities you listed. I don't have as much time today as I did yesterday... but perhaps that should be investigated as well as the overall damage and effect of the ability. I could go back and adjust my list for damages and effects based specifically off of the skills I have. Although, the Tiers will play a major part of that. *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally, I am not about class superiority or 'whay, my class isn't like their class'. I believe in class individuality. However, there is one GLARING problem with the Ranger class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look down our skill list, we do not have any utility skills. We cannot buff a group to give everyone more AC. We can't make the group run faster (beyond what Pathfinding gives us). So our utility is limited. Some could argue that our utility comes from the use of a bow and the ability to pull... but Fighters can use bows. So can other scouts. And frankly, a bow is a large money sink. You could suggest that we don't have to spend money... but I have only been able to do this by keeping a 12 slot bag full with 8 stacks of carbonite arrows and 4 stacks of feyiron arrows. I don't have to spend money but I have to manage when to use my bow and when not to based on ammo. Running out of ammo would mean that I would be limited in some of my abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No real benefit comes with this limitation. We do not do extraordinary damage with a bow or do our abilities that require a bow. Our class is a Predator class. We are considered to be a DPS class. In a group, our role is to dish out DPS and Evac if things get bad. We can scout and track just like every other scout (no more... however, some would argue we do it less in that we have no high-speed stealth). So our DPS... we have to use arrows which is a micromanaging nightmare at times ("Missing Component"... Son of a...)... and, frankly, does not compare to the damage we can do in Melee. Also, you have to consider that if half of our abilities use the bow, we lose a LOT of functionality in dungeons and close-quarters combat. Which, honestly, sounds about right... but we should shine as the sun in an open field. And we don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So as a class that is OBVIOUSLY a DPS class (since we have no skills that lend otherwise), why are we so... mediocre at it? If we *are* to take a back seat in DPS to an Assassin, then it hurts the Ranger class in the event that a Ranger and Assassin of equal levels are looking for a group. I don't mind taking back seat in DPS to an Assassin... just give us something else that makes the Ranger more appealing in group situations then they currently are. Give us some form of defining factor... or raise our DPS. Why would a group pick a ranger over an assassin?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur</DIV>

[Fingolfin2]

<DIV>An odd thing about many of ranger debuffs is they include a movement speed decrease. What the heck is that useful for? Maybe earlier in beta mobs would run. The movement speed decrease is useless as the game currently stands. </DIV>

[-vali]

TheWay - Oh, no harm or offense taken at all! No appologies accepted, because none are needed ;-DI was just 'serving the ball back' if you know what I mean; in other words, I was criticizing your criticism. With that being said, consider: - I don't currently have a list of all the detailed info for each skill, etc. Making due with the best I got. Agreed, a comparison based on that specific info would be much more useful. - I'd really be interested in the detailed info, I'd be happy to post & analyze that, when that info becomes available - Another thing im curious about is a listing of which skills replace what other skills. Sometimes it's clear from the description, other times its not. This way we could analyze the entire 'line' of skills, and assign rankings based on each line. It'd be more accurate... - DPS-wise, rangers are probably comparable. There's plenty of threads out there analyzing which has got more DPS, but perhaps we can get some real parsing going on. - Utility is what my post is focusing on. I'm perfectly happy being a ranger, and my ranger will be my main toon for the rest of my time with EQ2. I'm comparing our utility to that of an assassin, which has essentially the same 'role' as a ranger. Both DPS-oriented scouts, just good and evil flavors. - I really don't want to unbalance assassins, that's not my goal here. It's simply to point out a couple imbalances related to raw utility of each skill. I totally agree that rangers and assassins should not have the same skills. However, we should, as you say, have different ways to accomplish our roles as a DPS-scout. Elemental attacks, and movement speed buffs just are not comparable to additional debuffs and self-hastes. - I haven't put enough thought into how a ranger could be changed to balance this, but that's thinking too far in advance. First we have to recognize an imbalance. Once we can agree that the imbalance exists, we can go about solving it. I really appreciate getting the opposite end of the spectrum, and welcome your criticism. I love the socratic method - argument and discussion is what answers questions. But ya gotta be ready to have it 'served back' is all ;-DLet's keep this discussion raging! Perhaps we can get it posted into the Predators forum - maybe more appropriate? And could get more of the other side of the story, instead of having a bunch of rangers gang up on the one assassin who got embroiled? hehe ;-DTake care

[Jay]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Great way to get the ball rolling on an important discussion, Valis. You have been and continue to be a great asset to the ranger community. Kudos to TheWays for offering us some much-needed details on the assassin skills, and to Enoch100 for helping fill in the blanks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I hope you guys continue this analysis. I'm glad you've so far avoided the "well WE have it worse, trust me" BS. I've not played any other game that featured Competitive Moping as a side-game. </FONT></DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Enoch100 wrote:<DIV>The Ways,</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Fairly decent responses... I appreciate your candor in the matter.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Some points I wanted to touch on... in your post response to mine, you put a list of skills together saying they compare, however, you only assume that their description compares. I wanted to respond to them:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The useful ness of Assassin's Blade is superior to the Trick Shot (I don't think I have found a situation where I could use Trick Shot successfully and its damage is laughable). You are correct about Hidden Shot, looked it up and it is 90 seconds... sorry about that. You also fail to mention power consumption of some of the abilities you listed. I don't have as much time today as I did yesterday... but perhaps that should be investigated as well as the overall damage and effect of the ability. I could go back and adjust my list for damages and effects based specifically off of the skills I have. Although, the Tiers will play a major part of that. *shrug*</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And finally, I am not about class superiority or 'whay, my class isn't like their class'. I believe in class individuality. However, there is one GLARING problem with the Ranger class...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Look down our skill list, we do not have any utility skills. We cannot buff a group to give everyone more AC. We can't make the group run faster (beyond what Pathfinding gives us). So our utility is limited. Some could argue that our utility comes from the use of a bow and the ability to pull... but Fighters can use bows. So can other scouts. And frankly, a bow is a large money sink. You could suggest that we don't have to spend money... but I have only been able to do this by keeping a 12 slot bag full with 8 stacks of carbonite arrows and 4 stacks of feyiron arrows. I don't have to spend money but I have to manage when to use my bow and when not to based on ammo. Running out of ammo would mean that I would be limited in some of my abilities.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>No real benefit comes with this limitation. We do not do extraordinary damage with a bow or do our abilities that require a bow. Our class is a Predator class. We are considered to be a DPS class. In a group, our role is to dish out DPS and Evac if things get bad. We can scout and track just like every other scout (no more... however, some would argue we do it less in that we have no high-speed stealth). So our DPS... we have to use arrows which is a micromanaging nightmare at times ("Missing Component"... Son of a...)... and, frankly, does not compare to the damage we can do in Melee. Also, you have to consider that if half of our abilities use the bow, we lose a LOT of functionality in dungeons and close-quarters combat. Which, honestly, sounds about right... but we should shine as the sun in an open field. And we don't.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So as a class that is OBVIOUSLY a DPS class (since we have no skills that lend otherwise), why are we so... mediocre at it? If we *are* to take a back seat in DPS to an Assassin, then it hurts the Ranger class in the event that a Ranger and Assassin of equal levels are looking for a group. I don't mind taking back seat in DPS to an Assassin... just give us something else that makes the Ranger more appealing in group situations then they currently are. Give us some form of defining factor... or raise our DPS. Why would a group pick a ranger over an assassin?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>-Naissur</DIV><hr></blockquote>Rangers do good DPS, they do not have the big hits on long timers but they do a constant amount of damage. They also require a bit more work. I have seen many lazy rangers out there and there the ones complaining about there DPS.

[Enoch100]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR>Rangers do good DPS, they do not have the big hits on long timers but they do a constant amount of damage. They also require a bit more work. I have seen many lazy rangers out there and there the ones complaining about there DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, we do <EM>good</EM> DPS. That good is the important part. I never said that a Ranger sucked at DPS. We do Okay at it. I may be suffering from 'grass is greener' syndrome but I am just unsure and have no facts to base it off of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do know that our bow skills (which <STRONG>is</STRONG> our bread and butter) are not entirely up to par with what <STRONG>I</STRONG> believe they should be. Especially considering the costs weighed in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play my ranger quite well and typically rule the DPS chart (using the combat parser program). My typical group is around the same level (I play with RL friends) of 31-32. A Guardian, Templar, Mystic, Swashbuckler, Brawler and myself. The Brawler is a few levels lower (27 I believe) and doesn't have too much trouble keeping up with me and the swashbuckler. Typically, if I am not using a poison, the swashy and I are pretty neck and neck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our abilities are not entirely power efficient and the fact that poison and arrows are another cost makes it hard to believe that our DPS is... lacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to answer your question, I know how to play my ranger... I'm not a lazy ranger... I do have a high one-time hit of 653 which is pretty good at level 32 (107th on my server last I checked). None of these are the question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See, typically the problem is people similar to yourself that mistake posts such as these to mean that Rangers are complaining because we are not uber and able to deal godly amounts of damage... That is only part of the point...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Rangers should be able to dish out more damage because we have higher costs. Plain and simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I've ran my stats parser... I use Stormfire at lvl 32 and my bow just simply <STRONG>cannot</STRONG> keep up with my melee. Bottom line, end of discussion. My melee cannot keep up with the damage of other high DPS melee classes. I use both in combat, quite extensively... I lead off with my heavy hitting bow abilities (sniping shot, triple shot, flaming shot, etc...) while moving in close... our one "advantage" I use right here... while running in I hit Leaping Cut (the DoT) from a good distance. By this time, I'm close enough, I use Shrouded Strike (which will be replaced soon) and Shadowflame (which is actually the trait version that does a DoT as well). I then do Lunging thrust and Corner and any other debuffer I have (such as a mastery). I then Shrouded Strike and Shadow Lunge. By this time I've done a massive amount of damage. <STRONG>BUT</STRONG>, I have gone through about 10-13 arrows and probably about 50% of my power... and this is one mob. Shadow Lunge, Sniping Shot, etc... have long enough timers that the next mob in the group will likely not feel my wrath as much... the third will... Of course, there's Pounce (which is nice), but it too has a long recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, yes, we have good DPS. The question becomes does our DPS balance out the costs? And, other then DPS, how do we affect a group? Corner, Lunging Thrust and Mastery abilities are practically our only debuffs and we have no group buffs... So, when comparing to an Assassin who "appears" to do more damage, has debuffs that will affect everyone's DPS and Damage Taken in the group, and some abilities that effectively buff the group, why would anyone need a ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... just thought I would explain a bit more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur</DIV>

[Mamasee]

Enoch100,I was not directing my lazy coment at anyone, and anone willing to go compose what you have done, is not lazy. However I do not beleive your assement in some of the ranger/assisian skills are accurate, some styles are apples and oranges. You shoud go read the assisian boards where you will find threads like "Really depressed with our damage" Players seem to have the grass is allways greener view of things. I beleive rangers are all the DPS of assisians, they however do require more work to accomplish that goal. I also noticed you do not mention Heroic Oppertunites, while the same to all the scout classes, working them also increases damage output.

[Bego]

<DIV>I must agree in ideal settings we kick out som amazing dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hidden shot   150</DIV> <DIV>back shot       250</DIV> <DIV>open shot                100</DIV> <DIV>wounding arrow</DIV> <DIV>trickshot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All equals</DIV>

[Bego]

<DIV>I must agree in ideal settings we kick out som amazing dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hidden shot   150</DIV> <DIV>back shot       250</DIV> <DIV>open shot                 100</DIV> <DIV>wounding arrow</DIV> <DIV>trickshot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All equals</DIV>

[Bego]

<DIV>I must agree in ideal settings we kick out som amazing dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hidden shot               150</DIV> <DIV>back shot                   250</DIV> <DIV>open shot                  100</DIV> <DIV>wounding arrow         80</DIV> <DIV>trickshot                     50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pretty well averaged out</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All equals some good dps even before entering combat. Would be nice to have some utility though only things I realy use on a group basis is pathfinding and wounding arrow for the wea debuff. Oh well can't win everything.</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR>Enoch100,<BR><BR>I was not directing my lazy coment at anyone, and anone willing to go compose what you have done, is not lazy. However I do not beleive your assement in some of the ranger/assisian skills are accurate, some styles are apples and oranges. You shoud go read the assisian boards where you will find threads like "Really depressed with our damage" Players seem to have the grass is allways greener view of things. I beleive rangers are all the DPS of assisians, they however do require more work to accomplish that goal. <BR><BR>I also noticed you do not mention Heroic Oppertunites, while the same to all the scout classes, working them also increases damage output.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I have seen the Assassin "depressed with damage" posts. I have also made note of their broken abilities. Honestly, I'm not sure if the Ranger class is "broken". Yes, we have good DPS but the cost (in supplies and effort) seems higher then others and we get no added benefit. That's probably my biggest issue.</P> <P>I did not mention HO's because every scout can do them, the same with any class for that matter.</P> <P>And Begone, you will probably spend at least double the power and probably about 5 or 6 times the amount of time to get all the abilities off that I would do by doing a Shrouded Strike/Shadow Lunge combo (and I'd probably out damage ya). Sure, Shadow Lunge is a longer recast but the Shadowflame ability is pretty quick. *shrug* Just seems frustrating that a good bow and lots of abiliities (and lots of power, arrows, etc...) would be outdone by two abilities.</P> <P>Anyway, *sigh*. Mamaseeta, didn't mean to attack you (or be defensive) and Begone I don't mean to be that way with you either.</P> <P> </P> <P>I just feel like something's missing or not quite right with our class.</P>

[TheWays]

<DIV>Something I definitely think warrants some consideration is the power cost, cast times, and effects of arts that require ammo.  Going down the list that shows power usage for each art on the original post, there are only a few occasions where power cost is different between "like" combat arts for each subclass.  In a side by side comparison (without knowing the exact effects of each) this looks alot like a double negative.  Even if the dps effects, debuff effects, etc were exactly the same the fact that rangers have to pay an additional ammo cost is pretty unfair.  Sure, rangers get arts that allow them to attain arrows for "free" but according to what you have said, that constitutes a small amount of actual arrows spent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think power costs for such arts as Triple Shot, Trick Shot, Crippling Arrow, and all their evolutions should be eliminated, but they should definitely be at least lowered.  Since I'm not familiar with the dps output of rangers on a level by level basis, i'm not really gonna comment on that other than they should in all fairness be as close to assassins as balance constraints will provide (for better or worse :smileywink: ).  I would very much like to see predators up next for dps evalutation like what has happened with sorcerers.  I'm not insinuating that warlocks and wizards don't have other issues that need addressing, but that predators have a lot of problems with broken or useless combat arts, severe spell stacking issues, and at times lackluster dps compared to other classes (including brawlers...but thats another forum).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>To kinda play devils advocate here:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>The reason that ranged arts require regular power cost plus the cost of ammo is the fact that they allow attacking an opponent without retribution.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>While I can understand this reasoning to a point, I assume rangers especially use there arts in group settings and in places where "kiting" can't really take place "jumping in and out of ranged" so to speak.  For this reason, I think a change should at least be considered.</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Wow, Thanks! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Made my day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for kiting... it works sometimes. But there are a lot of times where "you will no longer gain experience or loot for this encounter". *rolls eyes*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am considering doing a log this weekend (I play mostly on the weekends) to get a good set of data to work with and I'll post my results on Monday. We can then compare notes that way. I'll mark down what my ability's tiers are (app3, etc...), the power cost, the avg damage, etc... I will also put into perspective my DPS versus other classes. We'll get it all out on the floor. If there is a problem with the Ranger class then we'll expose it... if not, I will say there is no problem with them and never mention it again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a 32 (or 33) Assassin that is willing to do the same, could be quite useful. Anyway, I'll post it on Monday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur, Neriak</DIV>

[Enoch100]

<DIV>Ok, after Friday night, I have compiled my stats. Please realize I was buffed through group buffs (Mystic, Templar Guardian and Monk):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Flaming Shot</U> (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 28</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 127</DIV> <DIV>Average: 59.35</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 53</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 3 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 20 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 113-188 heat damage</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 127-212 heat damage</DIV> <DIV>* supposedly ignores some enemy armor</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Swipe</U> (this is a proc from Blade Flurry)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 13</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 37</DIV> <DIV>Average: 21.73</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Sniping Shot</U> (Adept I)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 131</DIV> <DIV>Maximum:  360</DIV> <DIV>Average: 216.51</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 53</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 60 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 346-577 piercing damage</DIV> <DIV>* slows target's movement speed for 6 seconds</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Triple Shot</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 21</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 139</DIV> <DIV>Average: 58.26</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 50</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 60 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 68-113 melee damage</DIV> <DIV>* inflict 102-170 melee damage</DIV> <DIV>* inflict 136-227 melee damage</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Wounding Arrow</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 48</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 157</DIV> <DIV>Average: 81.59</DIV> <DIV>Power: 45</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 30 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 127-212 melee damage</DIV> <DIV>* Decrease Deflection and Parry of target by 5</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Shrouded Strike</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 88</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 209</DIV> <DIV>Average: 141.69</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 43</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 10 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Casts lvl 30 stealth while slowing 50%</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 135-225 melee damage</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Pounce</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 58</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 130</DIV> <DIV>Average: 88.9</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 43</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 60 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 92-153 melee damage</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Lunging Thrust</U> (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 58</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 234</DIV> <DIV>Average: 169.70</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 70</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 20 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 159-265 piercing damage on target</DIV> <DIV>* Reduce AC of target vs. Piercing Damage by 148-220</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><U>Shadow Lunge</U> (Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 275</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 649</DIV> <DIV>Average: 447.89</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 55</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 60 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 389-648 piercing damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><U>Lightning Strike</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 70</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 144</DIV> <DIV>Average: 105.16</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 33</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 9 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 98-164 magic damage</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Giant Masters Sinister Strike</U></DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 95</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 176</DIV> <DIV>Average: 130.5</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Holly's Faerie Fire</U> (Shadowflame trait replacement, Adept 2)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 23 (through DoT)</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 233</DIV> <DIV>Average: 64.44 (this is off because of the DoT)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 43</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 10 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 169-281 heat damage</DIV> <DIV>* Decrease health of target by 17 every 4 seconds for 16 seconds</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Rip</U> (Adept I)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 62</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 90</DIV> <DIV>Average: 77.83</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 53</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 20 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 94 melee damage</DIV> <DIV>* Summons 1 feyiron arrow</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Leaping Cut</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 30 (through DoT)</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 50</DIV> <DIV>Average: 36 (this is off because of the DoT)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 33</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 30 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflicts 44 damage</DIV> <DIV>* Decrease health of target by 24 every 4 seconds (for 12 seconds)</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 34-56 piercing damage on target</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Sneak Attack</U> (App 3)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 49</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 94</DIV> <DIV>Average: 72.33</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Power: 18</DIV> <DIV>Cast: 1 s</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 10 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Skill Description:</DIV> <DIV>* Inflict 67-112 melee damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><U>Skeleton's Mastery Sinister Strike</U></DIV> <DIV>Minimum: 94</DIV> <DIV>Maximum: 181</DIV> <DIV>Average: 143.78</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Forester's Insight</U> (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>No Damage</DIV> <DIV>Power: 34</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 15 minutes</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 30 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Description:</DIV> <DIV>* increase AGI by 24</DIV> <DIV>* increase speed by 5%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My equipment:</DIV> <DIV>Kukuri of Nightfall (cons orange)</DIV> <DIV>Dmg: 7-22</DIV> <DIV>Delay: 1.2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>feysteel kukuri (cons orange)</DIV> <DIV>Dmg: 7-22</DIV> <DIV>Delay: 1.2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stormfire (cons yellow)</DIV> <DIV>Dmg: 48-242</DIV> <DIV>Delay: 7</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Used Makeshift carbonite arrows mostly. On occasion I would use feyiron but didn't notice a significant change. I should be hitting some more good stuff tonight and I'll post my results when I can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For reference purposes, I was lvl 32. I was grouped with a lvl 31 Swashbuckler, 31 (who dinged 32) Templar, 31 Guardian, 32 Mystic, 27 (who dinged 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Monk. According to my logs I was able to keep up with the Monk and the Swashbuckler. What's sad is that I was barely able to keep up. However, I will point out this: In most fights they were pretty quick which meant the other members were able to reuse theire abilities each fight and get one good hit for each ability which would jack up their overall DPS. Substantially. However, looking at total damage, my total damage was usually consistently higher then the other members. Also, we were fighting Greens (doing the PGT quest).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, these are my stats. Also note that during this experiment I was NOT using poisons. I'll record my logs again tonight and post more details while NOT fighting greens. Anyway...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Naissur, Neriak</DIV>

[sjaste]

<DIV>I read this post before thinking that assassins are better but they can't be that much better. Than about last week I grouped in RE with an assassin my lvl (33) and I reached a new highest hit with shadowblade of 599, and she had reached a new highest hit with her move of 1195 thats 3 points less than double our DPS I was outraged. </DIV>

[TheWays]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sjastein wrote:<BR> <DIV>I read this post before thinking that assassins are better but they can't be that much better. Than about last week I grouped in RE with an assassin my lvl (33) and I reached a new highest hit with shadowblade of 599, and she had reached a new highest hit with her move of 1195 thats 3 points less than double our DPS I was outraged. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Considering shadowblade is a lvl 10 art, I'm surprised you got it that high :smileytongue:.  I assume you meant shadowlunge, and heres a little insight into why she did so much more damage: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowlunge is on a 60 second refresh timer and does great damage.</DIV> <DIV>Assassins Blade is on a 300 second (5 minute) refresh timer and does massive damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So overall, her actual dps isn't much higher (if at all) she just has one big hit with a big refresh timer.  Something that should be mentioned, however, is that assassins blade is not the equivalent art that assassins get, ebon blade is.  I don't have access to my account at the moment (on active duty and haven't gotten around to shipping my PC up here) otherwise I'd give detailed art descriptions for assassin arts.  Gonna try to get a post started on the assassin boards that list the various different art descriptions at different levels and skill levels.  Ideally, a lvl 50 with all adept 3's would give the best skill descriptions, but that will be very very rare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a description of Ebon Blade that I have been able to find however:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ebon Blade Adept 1 at lvl 32<BR>- Inflict 379-633 piercing damage on target <BR>- Decrease AC of target vrs piercing damage by 254-395</DIV>

[TheWays]

<DIV>Argh! double post (blasted security check)</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Will fill with better info in the future.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWays on <span class=date_text>02-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 AM</span>