All scout classes need to /bug and /feedback the agi problem ingame.

[Dub]

<DIV>Flood them with complaints.  Its crap that I not longer am agile and able to parry and reposte more than a tank that is made for taking hits.</DIV>

[Cex]

<DIV>Why?</DIV>

[Sirlutt]

yep i gotta ask Why ? aswell.I dont see a problem with it.See sig.

[Aulerd]

Its a nerf they have done on purpose =( . Just wait for the respec of ability choices that people are buzzing about. Just pile half agi half str. since agi is bollocks now =(

[michael_r]

<DIV>Dont know what lvl the 2 ppl who are happy with the agi nerf is, but at 32 it is bad.</DIV> <DIV>Sure i can still solo (and do) but its not as 'fun' now as it used to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i thought this was a game, and game = fun to me.</DIV>

[Bromious]

<DIV>I keep seeing everyone calling this a nerf. I don't think it's a nerf, it's a fix.  I can't imagine it was working properly considering I was able to duo (with 32 Fury) a level 39 redder than hell solo mob. Now after the patch I wouldn't even think about tanking for that kind of encounter. I don't think I as a Ranger was ever meant to tank, tank is really the wrong word, I should say Avoid. We weren't able to tank pre-patch, we were able to avoid incredibly well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has it been more challenging to solo after the patch? Absolutely, it has forced me to refine my solo tactics a little more. I'll break it down like this so far in my experience: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Green Solo mobs</FONT>: Still cake, if you have a problem with green solo's it's a tactics problem or a problem with the mob being overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Blue Solo mobs</FONT>: A little tougher but still easily soloable, can get away with a couple mistakes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White Solo Mobs: Time to  start paying attention, a tough fight but still a win for the good team, can maybe get away with a mistake if you have the nerve to stick around if your health gets into the teens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Yellow Solo Mobs</FONT>: You better have a [FaarNerfed!] near perfect fight, pull tactics, debuffs on inc etc, using snare when you can for bow shots and so forth, very tiny room for error. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Orange Solo Mobs: </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>You might get lucky.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Red: </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Debt can suck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Group </STRONG>mobs: They're meant for <STRONG>groups </STRONG>, pretty easy to understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is of course all subjective and my experience with soloing since patch, is it any less fun for me? No, I still enjoy the game a lot. That being said about 75% of my time is spent grouping. This is all of course based on my current level and most of level 32. I know there a ton of variables involved and don't pretend to know them. I would consider myself an average player as well, certainly not the best but not the worst (have experienced this one first hand).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp worth, nothing more than a [Removed for Content] of wisdom on the toilet paper of life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Bromious on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Coyt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bromious wrote:<BR> <DIV>I keep seeing everyone calling this a nerf. I don't think it's a nerf, it's a fix.  I can't imagine it was working properly considering I was able to duo (with 32 Fury) a level 39 redder than hell solo mob. Now after the patch I wouldn't even think about tanking for that kind of encounter. I don't think I as a Ranger was ever meant to tank, tank is really the wrong word, I should say Avoid. We weren't able to tank pre-patch, we were able to avoid incredibly well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has it been more challenging to solo after the patch? Absolutely, it has forced me to refine my solo tactics a little more. I'll break it down like this so far in my experience: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Green Solo mobs</FONT>: Still cake, if you have a problem with green solo's it's a tactics problem or a problem with the mob being overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Blue Solo mobs</FONT>: A little tougher but still easily soloable, can get away with a couple mistakes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White Solo Mobs: Time to  start paying attention, a tough fight but still a win for the good team, can maybe get away with a mistake if you have the nerve to stick around if your health gets into the teens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Yellow Solo Mobs</FONT>: You better have a [FaarNerfed!] near perfect fight, pull tactics, debuffs on inc etc, using snare when you can for bow shots and so forth, very tiny room for error. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Orange Solo Mobs: </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>You might get lucky.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Red: </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Debt can suck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Group </STRONG>mobs: They're meant for <STRONG>groups </STRONG>, pretty easy to understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is of course all subjective and my experience with soloing since patch, is it any less fun for me? No, I still enjoy the game a lot. That being said about 75% of my time is spent grouping. This is all of course based on my current level and most of level 32. I know there a ton of variables involved and don't pretend to know them. I would consider myself an average player as well, certainly not the best but not the worst (have experienced this one first hand).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp worth, nothing more than a [Removed for Content] of wisdom on the toilet paper of life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gretz</DIV> <DIV>33 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>32 Provisioner</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Bravo , I agree 100% , I can still solo 3 green (No ^) group mobs , so I feel lucky. I wish people would stop complaining, solo solo mobs. <BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gavranch]

<DIV>While I've been been having trouble soloing, I tend to agree with your appraisal of the cons to toughness.  I don't mind it being challanging, as long as it's equitable for all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem I have, more precicely, is that when I talke to just about any other class in my guild (enchanters, guardians, templars, palidans, inquisitors, etc), they are completly suprised at the difficulty.  As an example, I've recently fallen behind with my main XP partner.  The reason is that he, as a guardian, was soloing yellow and orange mobs for yellow solo quests where as I, with the above mentioned battle risks, was constantly evacing and collecting debt (eventually, after two deaths, I quit so it wasn't that much, but still).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem, in summary, is that even if our soloing experiance is what is desired, we are the ONLY one that is 'fixed'.  Whether they intend it or not, the made it *no* fun to play solo.  Every time I find I'm in a close battle with a blue, or about to die to a white, I think 'If only I was a bezerker, I wouldn't have this problem.  I could get XP.'  And that thought, I think everyone can agree, is an awful one.</DIV>

[Cex]

<DIV>Well said Bromious</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fyi:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Catalyst 45 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV> <DIV>Officer of Paragon</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cexia on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Bromious]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gavranchet wrote:<BR> <DIV>While I've been been having trouble soloing, I tend to agree with your appraisal of the cons to toughness.  I don't mind it being challanging, as long as it's equitable for all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem I have, more precicely, is that when I talke to just about any other class in my guild (enchanters, guardians, templars, palidans, inquisitors, etc), they are completly suprised at the difficulty.  As an example, I've recently fallen behind with my main XP partner.  The reason is that he, as a guardian, was soloing yellow and orange mobs for yellow solo quests where as I, with the above mentioned battle risks, was constantly evacing and collecting debt (eventually, after two deaths, I quit so it wasn't that much, but still).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem, in summary, is that even if our soloing experiance is what is desired, we are the ONLY one that is 'fixed'.  Whether they intend it or not, the made it *no* fun to play solo.  Every time I find I'm in a close battle with a blue, or about to die to a white, I think 'If only I was a bezerker, I wouldn't have this problem.  I could get XP.'  And that thought, I think everyone can agree, is an awful one.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>From your point of view I can understand where you might be disappointed. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have never concerned myself with whether the grass is greener on the other side. I'm much more concerned with refining my Ranger abilities and knowing exactly what I can and can't do. Just from the tone of your post you sound like a Zerker in Rangers clothes :smileywink: I just don't think that all classes can be all things.  Some will inherantly be able to do some things better than others ie: Solo. I just happen to better than most at running away from mobs :smileytongue:</P> <P>Bottom line: I think playstyles have a lot to do with how much you enjoy your toon. How willing are most to become very good at playing their class? From what I've seen, certainly not the majority. This is based entirely on my pick up group experience. Going to shut my pie hole now before I get myslef in trouble hehe.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Bromious on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 PM</span>

[Mik91]

<DIV>Isn't a Green ++ mob supposed to be the same as a Whte Solo con? Then therefore shouldn't we be able to solo it? </DIV>

[Kthaara]

<DIV>A couple of guildmates (Zerkers) can still solo green^^ with ease as long as the mob is 4 levels below them.  If it is 3 below them, they cant do it .  Blue, white and most yellow solos for them are still easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that both of you are right - I agree with the con system and think that taking on a yellow should be very difficult.  I also think that it should be difficult for every class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to play much longer as a ranger just to keep up with my guildmates.  Fix it so that every class has the same chance at soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kwentavius</DIV> <DIV>Exigent Circumstance</DIV> <DIV>GUK</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kthaara on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[Gavranch]

<DIV>It's not that, really, though I can see how you got that impression.  I could have said Enchanter, or anything else really.  I chose Ranger because I liked the notion of being able to stealth to get around, being a utility player in a group, and being able to do damge (but needing to work for it).  I enjoy the positioning of combat, trying to get behind and drop to range without agroing new mobs, etc.  I like the idea of a Ranger, and I had been enjoying playing on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I stopped having fun was when I stopped being able to keep up with my guild mates.  That was the real issue.  I now still have several quests open that I should have had done, that I still need to do with pulls me out of some group.  They get XP, and I fall behind.  It's that social aspect that is *really* frusterating.  It's not the gameplay, because as I said I agree with your appriasal of the cons.  It's the fact that, currently, I can find no benifit at all to playing a ranger.  An Assassin outdamaged me by over 1500k in one fight (double overcon yellow mob.  We both went all out.  I was out of power, he still had some).  My main benifits (as with most scouts) is a challange to take advantage of soloing (keeping range or getting behind is a challange, that in general I like, but that in the context of the game is a burden).  I don't have the group buffs of other classes (clerics, wizards, Swashbucklers, etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My utility in a group is my ability to dish out damage when the conditions are right.  But even in that I'm just one of a few classes that do that.  Even so, I can live with that because I like the *flavor* of the damage I dish out and the interactivity of the manuvering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, not only is my solo experiance very much less interesting and fun than other classes but I'm being left behind in my group because of it.  That one thing I had, that flavor of DPS that I do, is ALSO being ruined because I am slowly slipping away from my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That sucks.</DIV>

[nyox]

<DIV>i would be happy if they would just make swindlers luck hit once per fight.</DIV>

[Nulad]

<blockquote><hr>Mik911x wrote:<DIV>Isn't a Green ++ mob supposed to be the same as a Whte Solo con? Then therefore shouldn't we be able to solo it? </DIV><hr></blockquote>If it was then it would be labeled as White Solo... It might be roughly equivalent but it's a mob designed for more than one person to be tackling which is why you should have difficulty beating it.Nul.

[Jarlax]

While everyone here makes a good point, everyone is also forgetting this is our only line of defense. Lets see how well a fighter or a warrior does with fewer hitpoints and lower AC. I cant even imagine what it is like not only for our class but mages or summoners who have no hit points or ac.

[Gavranch]

<DIV>Mages and summoners have pets that can tank for them or spells that can root/fear the mob while they nuke.  We have, umm... impede and it's repleacements.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Impede followed by ranged attacks is, I think, the single more dangerous method of all of them, and the least generall useful (for example, in Stormhold where there's no where, really to run to).</DIV>

[stainremov]

we cant just split agi/str since agi is where we get our power from. what i would really like is to see the effects of agi on to-hit stats. agility is supposed to affect our chances of hitting right? i remember a while ago, against a lvl 27 mob (which was red to me), i was missing like crazy. i'd land like 1/10 hits. while this pal in my grp, which was one lvl above me, never missed at all. sure he's a level above me, but i had 40 agi on him. that's just complete bs if you ask me.and i STILL dont get how monks can tank better than us. we have more ac, more agi. taht's complete bs.

[Jarlax]

<blockquote><hr>stainremover wrote:we cant just split agi/str since agi is where we get our power from. what i would really like is to see the effects of agi on to-hit stats. agility is supposed to affect our chances of hitting right? i remember a while ago, against a lvl 27 mob (which was red to me), i was missing like crazy. i'd land like 1/10 hits. while this pal in my grp, which was one lvl above me, never missed at all. sure he's a level above me, but i had 40 agi on him. that's just complete bs if you ask me.and i STILL dont get how monks can tank better than us. we have more ac, more agi. taht's complete bs.<hr></blockquote>I agree with you Stainremover and agility deals with the chances of the mob hitting you. As you progress through the levels you get better at the weapons that you are using such as piercing, slashing. You are not going to hit a mob better then someone a level higher then you since there level of skill increases with that weapon. I dont want to be a tank that is not a scouts role but I surely want to be able to solo blue mobs. Its bad enough we dont do as much damage as an asassin and now they want to take the only defense we have in the game and nerf it. And all of these other people can sugar coat it all they want they shafted the scout class.

[Ranger_Ni]

<DIV>The thing is that every class had someway of getting around difficult solo encounters and avoiding Death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighters have high defense and lots of hit points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Magic users could heal themselves, summon creature, buff themselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts <STRONG>could</STRONG> dodge and parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However now it seems that since they took our effectivness of avoiding blows we're getting a bad deal here, I think we've been changed into fighters but with lower hitpoints.</DIV>

[CloakV]

Well I have 4 characters. After the agility nerf this is how it runs for me.Warlock 30th level - solo reds no problem, soon with the boosted dammage and spell fixes its gonna be even easier.Warden 25th level - yellows/oranges no problem, not tried any reds but am sure i could just about manage them.Paladin 22nd level - yellows/oranges ok, sometimes orange a little tricky.Ranger 25th level - IF i'm incredibly lucky I might survive fighting a white mob. Infact today a green bear (not even a ^ or ^^) took me down to 23hp from full health. Blues are a realistic challenge.All of my characters have good/top equipment for their levels. So the lone hunter who should by all terms be more of a solo character is the least solo friendly. lolI understand that they nerfed us because in powerfull groups agility could be so high that mobs couldn't hit us, but they neglected to think that when you solo you dont have massive buffs from 5 other players. Its funny that this happened in the same patch that was supposed to make the game more solo friendly. It could well be that all the other characters are overpowered and the ranger is the right setting, but it still sucks that now if i want to get anywhere I have to group with the ranger. Yet with my other characters I can still solo effectivley. I'm sure they'll balance it one way or another sooner or later.Oh also, anyone else noticed that the 25th level buff as app4 does exactly the same as app1. Also steady aim app4 stops the skill from working all together.

[Cex]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranger_Nick wrote:<BR> <DIV>The thing is that every class had someway of getting around difficult solo encounters and avoiding Death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighters have high defense and lots of hit points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Magic users could heal themselves, summon creature, buff themselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts <STRONG>could</STRONG> dodge and parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However now it seems that since they took our effectivness of avoiding blows we're getting a bad deal here, I think we've been changed into fighters but with lower hitpoints.</DIV> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P>Your not using your bow effectively. Theres no reason you should be having trouble with white con mobs at all if your using your skills wisely. You bow is your friend. Use it, live by it, Youll be more effective. Hell you can usually pull off two salvos by using snare mid fight and backing away shooting. Stun is also a nice way to get distance on a mob. Ringing blow also stuns.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[GoNom]

<DIV>Ringing Bow does stun, but its more of an interupt stun, it may give you the chance to back up for a Tripleshot Volley, but not really get behind the mob to get any larger attacks off.  Want a way to "de-nerf" Rangers?  Cut the timer on cheap shot down to 15 seconds.  With that stun we can start to land 4 times as many "Big" hits, Shadow Lunge, Shadow Flame with less damage taken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought</DIV>