Please Tell Me This Isn't Right

[Arba]

<DIV> <P>First I had a Ranger in EQ1 and many other Online Games and I just started to use a bow in EQII.  We no longer carry our weapons in hand so it is tough to see what weapon you have readied. So I setup my Range attack on Alt 1 I target a mob and have no idea what range the bow or arrow have so just take a guess and hit Alt 1 to attack with my bow and as soon as I hit range attack the mob is running for me and is whaling on me before my arrow even flies. Please tell me this isn't how archery is intended to work in EQII? There is no time to get off a second shot and I am hitting melee attack split seconds after hitting range attack due to mobs somehow knowing that I attacked via range before my arrow is released.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> </DIV>

[Elenden]

<DIV>If you're not seeing the arrow hit with points drifting above the target, then you didn't cause any damage.  They will aggro on you regardless.  I don't use keyboard shortcuts for fighting so I'm not sure if that makes it more difficult to change to melee or not.  I prefer to have a couple rows of fighting styles listed.  One for stealth related the other for ranged/upclose melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ranged weapons work great, imho.  Especially with Backshot and the others as you move up after level 20.  </DIV>

[Males]

<DIV>Yep, that pretty much sounds like the way it works.  As soon as you start your attack, your enemy aggros against you.  I usually prefer to start off with a Sneak attack, but in the event that the foe is still aggro even when I'm in Sneak, I'll open with a ranged attack.  I'll slowly creep in to range and start with a back shot.  No, there's no perfect range indicator, so sometimes you have to try a couple of times and get the message to get closer.  You quickly get a feel for it, though.  As soon as my backshot is in the air, I start running backwards and light off a double shot.  Once those hit, my target is often 1/2 dead, and I switch into melee.</DIV> <DIV>I, too, have multiple hotkey bars on the bottom of my screen.  I group together my masks, capes, coins, and daggers for ease of HO's, and I also have my ranged all together.</DIV>

[bli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malessa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yep, that pretty much sounds like the way it works.  As soon as you start your attack, your enemy aggros against you.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's not exactly true.  The way this makes it sound is that the enemy aggros without you having the opportunity to do ANY initial damage; in point of fact the enemy does not aggro until your first ranged attack has been calculated and applied to their hitpoint pool.  So, hit or miss, they don't move until they've been fired at, the shot has reached them, and the round has completed.<BR>

[Tolil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blitz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malessa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yep, that pretty much sounds like the way it works.  As soon as you start your attack, your enemy aggros against you.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's not exactly true.  The way this makes it sound is that the enemy aggros without you having the opportunity to do ANY initial damage; in point of fact the enemy does not aggro until your first ranged attack has been calculated and applied to their hitpoint pool.  So, hit or miss, they don't move until they've been fired at, the shot has reached them, and the round has completed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Not sure about that.  What I have experianced is that as soon as I fire an arrow, the mob will start its run at me.  The arrow will hit (or miss) and the damage is calculated whilst the mob is running at me, or has reached me.</P> <P>The fact is that mobs seem to aggro before any damage has been done to them.</P>

[bli]

<DIV>Yeah, I know the behaviour you're describing, but if you stand close enough to the mob you can see it react from the Hit.  What you want to watch, all at the same time, are the mobs character, your text screen, and your animation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The numbers floating over the mob are delayed.  Here's what you'll see, if you hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Press a special, it will launch the bar.  As SOON as the bar closes, your chat box will say "Your Backshot hit a Gnoll Poopoohead for 123 points of damage."  -OR- "You attempted to hit a Gnoll Poopoohead with Backshot but MISSED!" Now here's the key, SIMULTANEOUSLY the gnoll will jerk if you hit him, as if stricken by invisible daggers.  As the gnoll jerks, your character will begin to raise his/her bow and proceed to fire an arrow.  Sometime between beginning to raise the bow and the arrow actually striking, you'll see the numbers appear above the gnoll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you see, the problem isn't that mobs aggro instantaneously, it's that the animation starts too late.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, you cannot think of this game like a First person shooter.  the mob doesn't take damage as a result of an arrow striking him or her, nor does he take damage as a result of a sword slicing him or her.  the mob takes damage as a result of a mathematical calculation that is completely based on your skill vs their defense, and a random roll of the dice.  The graphical overlay we see is simply a way of translating this essentially pen and paper based combat system into a living breathing entity that we can relate with.  So when you think you see a problem, think about it programatically.  Would they have created a system where it is possible for a monster to attack you based on INITIATING an attack, not COMPLETING an attack?  Probably not.  If they did, why wouldn't the mob aggro at the initiation of EVERY attack?  Why not when your bar first goes up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play with it, I think you'll see that the mob aggros appropriately.  One of two things need to be "fixed" in order to resolve this misconception.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) they need to start the bow animation when the special bar is about 2 tenths from the end, granting enough time to line up the damage with the arrow landing on the character model.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or 2) they need to lengthen the time between the ENDING of the special (bar closes) to the application of damage to the Mob's health pool, granting enough time for the animation to carry out after the bar has closed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you notice, it's done the same way with the melee combatants, their damage is applied, then their attack animation is carried out.  Damage for special attacks is ALWAYS applied the Second a special ends, and thats when the animation begins.  so you see the problem, I hope?  They didn't realize that for us, applying the damage at the START of the animation was wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can apply these same principles to bow autoattack, not just specials.  It's the same idea, without the delay or added damage.  you hit autoattack and the shot is applied.  When it is being applied, the animation is started.</DIV><p>Message Edited by blitz on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[Arba]

<DIV>Thanks for the replies everyone. I am only level 12 so I have no speacial bow attacks and I am only doing standard range attacks.  This is not a graphical thing and a game mechanics thing. I was comparing how it is in EQ2 with other games and EQ1. In EQ1 my Ranger would stand back fire a shot and the mob would not react till hit I may have enough time to shot again depending on the bow speed, distance and arrows used.  I would then hit Snare and kite the mob till it was time to finish off with Melee. Rangers in EQ1 as in EQ2 have limited Melee skills and AC compared to true fighters and are not meant to stay in melee combat to long.  With things as they are in EQ2 I have no choice the mob is on me before I can do anything else and I have to fight it in melee. My casters do not have this issue the mobs they attack do not react till they are hit with the spell and this gives the caster time to cast again and it is not so with my Scout/Predator as soon as my finger hits the range attack key the mob is running for me. Sure some damage is done but I have no time to see that as I am in melee or run mode and have to scroll back.  Honestly it seem every game has a problem with the archer class and they do something to reduce the damage they can do from range and by all indications I have so far EQ2 has made it next to impossible to really be effective from range with a bow. Again I am only level 12 and I am hoping things get much better for a true Ranger at higher levels that is why I was asking about this. All replies seem to point to the fact that this "unfortunately" is how it is in EQ2.</DIV>

[Rydaga]

Blitz has it right. You need to watch the numbers in your text window. The mob should turn toward you at the exact same time damage is displayed there. Its just a delay in the animation. Usually, I can get another shot off after firing a backshot, and the damage from the second shot scrolls by in my text window before the first even hits in the animation. Delay on bows in EQ1 was lower than the newbie bows in EQ2. Once you get a bow with a low delay, you will be able to get off more than one shot before the mob gets to you, but kiting as you know it from EQ1 has been designed out of EQ2. Its an intentional balance of risk vs. reward. Also, rangers may lack AC in both EQ1 and EQ2, but they certainly do not have limited melee skills in either.<p>Message Edited by Rydagant on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[bli]

<DIV>Well said, Rydagent.  I'd like to bring up one point; kiting has DEFINITELY been designed OUT of EQ2, but it can still be done.  Make sure you have Pathfinding on, and use Ensnare or Impede.  It's more of a "Frantic dash for your life while using Open Shot to inflict damage" but it's doable.  Not at ALL like it used to be, of course, but it's still doable. I  usually kite solo oranges to about half health before turning to Melee them.  The combination of Pathfinding and Impede can actually allow you to walk Backwards away from a mob, utilizing more ranger bow specials.  It's tricky, and idiotic, but do-able. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Ra]

<DIV>Pathfinding speed boost effect is suspended during combat.  If it's not, then it's a bug.</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>maybe it's psychological :p</DIV>

[Shadebring]

<DIV>Actually I've had great success kiting mobs with my bow, fire at it from your max range and with straffe maneuvers circle around it continuously firing on auto bow attack with a few specials thrown in, if the mob gets too close run away a bit then circle it again, been working fine for me, and I find the constant moving around impedes the mobs to hit rolls, I seldom finish a fight taking more than a bubble of health in damage usually none at all</DIV>

[Tolil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadebringer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually I've had great success kiting mobs with my bow, fire at it from your max range and with straffe maneuvers circle around it continuously firing on auto bow attack with a few specials thrown in, if the mob gets too close run away a bit then circle it again, been working fine for me, and I find the constant moving around impedes the mobs to hit rolls, I seldom finish a fight taking more than a bubble of health in damage usually none at all</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I can see an autocircle/Eq1 Bard type argument breaking out if this becomes a widely used tactic :smileysad:</P>

[bli]

<DIV>I hate to sound like a crotchety old man, but, people should really mind their own business.  Us (as a class) running around in a circle doesn't effect their gameplay, if the old EQ1 bard kiting discussion breaks out, I swear I'll bust some skulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, 90% of the time I group, but it's nice to be Able to solo, if I find a good non-aggro area to do this (docks in TS was good for about 4 levels, now everywhere I hunt is surrounded by Aggro anyway)</DIV>

[Mus]

<DIV>I don't know if others have realized the same thing. But the "Ranged Attack" ability with it's weird timer can be a good thing sometimes.</DIV> <DIV>This ability DOES aggro the mob the millisecond you hit it. unlike other ranged abilities you get when leveling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this isn't ALL bad. Myself never use the "ranged attack" ability myself. since it's damage isn't near an opener like backshot etc.</DIV> <DIV>What it is is a wonderful pull ability that works great when there are lots of other people in the area and you need to pull fast or the mob will get "stolen" by someone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Think of it as a SUPER insta pulling thingy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Your backshot for instance, takes a few seconds for the bar to reach 100% and then the shot aggros the mob.</DIV> <DIV>Your Ranged Attack ability aggros the mob as soon as you hit the button. it's an insta-bring-me-mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wins over "Taunt" any time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Mus]

<DIV>I don't know if others have realized the same thing. But the "Ranged Attack" ability with it's weird timer can be a good thing sometimes.</DIV> <DIV>This ability does aggro the mob the millisecond you hit it. unlike other ranged abilities you get when leveling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this isn't all bad. Myself I never use the "ranged attack" ability myself. since it's damage isn't near an opener like back shot etc.</DIV> <DIV>What it is is a wonderful pull ability that works great when there are lots of other people in the area and you need to pull fast or the mob will get "stolen" by someone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Think of it as a SUPER insta pulling thingy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Your back shot for instance, takes a few seconds for the bar to reach 100% and then the shot aggros the mob.</DIV> <DIV>Your Ranged Attack ability aggros the mob as soon as you hit the button. it's an insta-bring-me-mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wins over "Taunt" any time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Sotaudi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arba wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>First I had a Ranger in EQ1 and many other Online Games and I just started to use a bow in EQII.  We no longer carry our weapons in hand so it is tough to see what weapon you have readied. So I setup my Range attack on Alt 1 I target a mob and have no idea what range the bow or arrow have so just take a guess and hit Alt 1 to attack with my bow and as soon as I hit range attack the mob is running for me and is whaling on me before my arrow even flies. Please tell me this isn't how archery is intended to work in EQII? There is no time to get off a second shot and I am hitting melee attack split seconds after hitting range attack due to mobs somehow knowing that I attacked via range before my arrow is released.<BR> <HR> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This may have been more of an early behavior that has been fixed as well.  I, too, noticed that when I first started using my bow, the mob was turning to attack before the animation showed me firing the arrow.  I got used to it and stopped thinking about it.  But lately, I have noticed that this does not seem to happen, especially with specials.  For instance, Backshot and Open Shot have timers, and Open Shot's is pretty long.  If you fire off Open Shot, the mob would certainly have time to aggro and attack before the timer expired and the shot fired.</P> <P>Also, there is another indication that this is not the case, at least any longer.  If you are out of range when you try to fire the shot, the system will tell you so, and nothing happens.  However, if a mob is walking away from you when you fire your first shot, and you are at near maximum range when you started the shot, it is possible for the target to get beyond maximum range before you actually shoot.  When this happens, the animation will go through all the steps and you will shoot off your arrows, but the shot is not actually counted as having been fired (just as if you try it from out of range).  However, if you move up, you will actually see arrows sticking out of your prey, despite the fact that the shot did not count and the damage was not actually assessed.</FONT></P> <P>If the aggro was triggered on the start of the shot before the arrows were fired, your shot would always hit in those circumstances, because he was in range when the shot started or it would have told you that you were out of range, and, rather than keep walking, he would have turned to charge, meaning he would not have walked out of range before the shot fired.</FONT></P> <P>So, as I said, I recall that behavior when I first started using the bow.  But I do not see that happening anymore, particularly since I almost exclusively start with specials anyway.</FONT><BR></P>

[Arba]

<DIV>I have gotten used to the way archery is working for now. One thing I do not see is if I am out of range to shoot my bow I go into melee attack with weapons drawn. As I move closer to the mob and get into bow range I will release a arrow.  This was as of last night 12-5. I would love to get a message saying I am out of range and nothing happens. I am going to continue with my Ranger to be as I love the class and I am looking forward to many of the special bow attacks mentioned here. Thanks again for the input.</DIV>

[Fugh]

The idea from SOE was for EQ2 about Kiting... Can u hurt a mob... the mob can hurt you. With the Bow its possible to kite a little. But u have also to parry the attacks from the enemys but they dont hit so hard as in Melee range. And when u start to hit a Mob with the Bow and would like to change in Melee so u must make the math that the delay from ure Bow infect the melle attack. Exampel: Old Gregors Bow.... Start with this bow to hit a Mob, Mob runs to you.. you change the fightstyle from range to close combat... now u must wait till the 7 Second delay from the Bow will be over till u can start to attack with closecombat. But its a way to workaround this problem... when u start to attack with a fast special like quick attack or whatever. So u can workaround the delay from Range to close.greezWisnu / Faydark