What's wrong with ranger

[Gr]

<DIV>I played a ranger to level 25 in beta. I said I was going to repost this at launch, so here it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo ability is awful. You can't use your bow abilities, and most of your good melee attacks require stealth and/or flank or rear positioning, which is only usable once every 30 seconds when cheap shot recharges (assuming it works, which it often does not). Soloing with the old HO system required skill and thought to set up chains and compensate for missed/parried attacks. The new system dumbs it down by removing the multiple starter moves that made chaining possible. With the one starter move now on the same ten second recast as the moves required to complete the HO, it is reduced to mindless button mashing with no skill or adaptation required because the wide variety of moves with the dagger icon means that you will always be able to complete a chain in less than ten seconds and you will always have a coin and dagger move ready when the starter recharges.<BR><BR>Limited group utility. You get the basic scout abilities .... and that's it. Rogues have taunt, mez, stun, group-stealth, etc, bards have all kinds of stuff, and assassin is somewhat lacking but they at least get stifles and a root. Ranger only has the shared scout abilities (snare, the Dirty Tricks line, the agi buff, etc) and attack moves, usually attached to debuffs of questionable value or hate manipulators that have the potential to backfire horribly and switch aggro to someone who doesn't want it.<BR><BR>Both rogue classes and assassin get stifle or interrupts at level 19-20. Stifle prevents mobs from doing most special attacks, so it's very useful against both caster and melee mobs. Ranger doesn't get an interrupt until 43 in the form of a ranged attack from behind, and has no stifles.<BR><BR>All other scouts get fast stealthed movement at 17 (bards), 19 (rogues), or 22 (assassin). Ranger doesn't. Instead, they get a self-buff to "ranged skills" that lasts for 30 seconds, has a 5 minute recast, and doesn't seem to do anything.<BR><BR>Ranged combat is pretty lame. Autoattack is incredibly slow and not very damaging. When grouped (the only time you can use ranged for more than pulling, because kiting takes forever, uses tons of arrows, and you can't do specials while moving) you do more damage by staying in melee range as much as possible because the much faster melee autoattack gives you a lot more chances to trigger various procs like poison, blade flurry, and all the stuff that casters can put on you. Other classes can just stay at melee range for the whole fight, but bow users have to run back and forth to get to bow range and take the risk of aggroing more mobs in areas with patrollers or high mob density. This is particularly bad with large enemies like giants and griffins because the bow minimum range is determined by the size of the target. <!-- THE POST --></DIV>

[FrozenSol]

sounds like its exactly what weve all come to expect from a ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/dragon_molds/sig.jpg" >

[Kaga]

<DIV>There is nothing wrong with ranger. I am the first level 20 on my server, and I am a ranger. I can solo just fine, using back shot / open shot or wound shot, I can drop a green / blue to almost half health soloing. The stealthed moves, are good because they make it easier to group and do damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This class is definelty one that takes brains to play, as it requires massive tactics to use, ie when to use an attack that puts you in stealth to either shadow blade, or pounce, or when to use which positional attack. In the few chances I got to group, the group always noticed a significant dps jump when I started playing my predator, like a killer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Predator / Rangers only job is to hunt, track, kill. That's it. We are not tree loving hippies, we are the NRA of Norrath. </DIV>

[To]

<DIV>100% agree with the first post</DIV>

[Tecums]

<DIV>I hav not gotten near the ranger class yet, but I am (<EM>was)</EM> planning it.  The first post  makes some great arguements; arguements that have been leveled at the ranger class in multiple games.  As I read posts about the ranger class I can't help but agree.  Will tracking and archery are right in line with the ranger ideal, it does not sound like the benefits match similar advantages of other professions of that level.  Missile attacks should rock for Rangers, it does not sound like it is this way.  In the end, very disappointing. :smileysad:</DIV>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tecumseh wrote:<BR> <DIV>I hav not gotten near the ranger class yet, but I am (<EM>was)</EM> planning it.  The first post  makes some great arguements; arguements that have been leveled at the ranger class in multiple games.  As I read posts about the ranger class I can't help but agree.  Will tracking and archery are right in line with the ranger ideal, it does not sound like the benefits match similar advantages of other professions of that level.  Missile attacks should rock for Rangers, it does not sound like it is this way.  In the end, very disappointing. :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I am a ranger, and missle attacks rock. Currently, I am the only ranger in EQ2. I can solo in TS no problem. I have solo'ed my way to level 20, and am loving the ranger class, until you experience being a Ranger, don't rely on someone who just didn't know what he was doing to pass judgment for you. </P> <P>The ranger class is not for everyone, it's a class that you have to be very knoweldgeable to get it to work. </P> <P>The stealth attacks I can use during a fight, by using attacks that put me in stealth, and if hte mob misses his attack after I go into stealth I can pull a stealth attack move off...</P> <P>On top of me being able to drop a yellow's health by about 1/4 - 1/2 by using Back Shot, Wound Shot, and Open Shot. </P>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>There is nothing wrong with ranger. I am the first level 20 on my server, and I am a ranger. I can solo just fine, using back shot / open shot or wound shot, I can drop a green / blue to almost half health soloing. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>while you [Removed for Content] around with green/blues, everyone else your level can easily solo white or more</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>This class is definelty one that takes brains to play, as it requires massive tactics to use, ie when to use an attack that puts you in stealth to either shadow blade, or pounce, or when to use which positional attack.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>did they finally fix pounce, or have you not yet noticed that it does about five damage?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>"tactics" are a joke:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>1) stand behind mob</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>2) mash buttons</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the few chances I got to group, the group always noticed a significant dps jump when I started playing my predator, like a killer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>they also would have noticed a significant dps jump if you were another scout class or a mage, and those classes have infinitely more utility than the ranger.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kaga]

<blockquote><hr>Griz wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kagara wrote:<BR><DIV>There is nothing wrong with ranger. I am the first level 20 on my server, and I am a ranger. I can solo just fine, using back shot / open shot or wound shot, I can drop a green / blue to almost half health soloing. </DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>while you [Removed for Content] around with green/blues, everyone else your level can easily solo white or more</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV><DIV>This class is definelty one that takes brains to play, as it requires massive tactics to use, ie when to use an attack that puts you in stealth to either shadow blade, or pounce, or when to use which positional attack.</DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>did they finally fix pounce, or have you not yet noticed that it does about five damage?</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>"tactics" are a joke:</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>1) stand behind mob</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>2) mash buttons</FONT></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In the few chances I got to group, the group always noticed a significant dps jump when I started playing my predator, like a killer.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>they also would have noticed a significant dps jump if you were another scout class or a mage, and those classes have infinitely more utility than the ranger.</FONT></DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><hr></blockquote>I can also solo yellow's and oranges at level 20, I don't do them unless they are associated with a quest because you get a better xp intake ratio with blues / greens. Pounce is fixed, I used it and did 70 damage to each mob that was near me. And these are groups that had a scout in them already, adn loved the damamge I did. Notice how Vyspel, a ranger, has the higest damamge in all of EQ2, if you were following the trends, you would notice that the highest melee hit was from a bow for a long time.

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR><BR>And these are groups that had a scout in them already, adn loved the damamge I did. Notice how Vyspel, a ranger, has the higest damamge in all of EQ2, if you were following the trends, you would notice that the highest melee hit was from a bow for a long time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>that's only because there aren't any assassins with their five minute megahit yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited buffs. other scouts and mages boost group damage output just as much, only they do it through buffs procs etc and can do other things besides mindless button mashing.</DIV>

[Jerik_EQ2]

I played a Ranger to level 22 in Beta. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed it... but I probably won't play one in retail.One of my beefs with the class is that its unique, high damage attacks (bow shots) often require both DISTANCE (oops.. too far.. oops.. too close) and POSITION to use. No other class has those requirements.For opening solo shots it's not so bad, but the more you group, particularly in dungeons where space is limited.. and where the tank is pulling to gain instant aggro... you wind up either sticking to your basic melee skills (that are shared by all scouts), or trying to move in and out of range to switch between bow and melee whenever the bow skills refreshed. Dancing in and out allowed me to have nice DPS, but also greatly increased the chance that I would aggro other mobs. Especially since I'm trying to stay behind the mob... which usually means further into the space mobs are still standing.If was putting together a good dungeon group... who would I pick to add to the group... the Ranger that is either not using half his good skills or constantly aggroing stuff... or the other scout classes that bring just as much dps, but can stay nice and tight to the encounter, while offering better group buffs and abilities?

[Kaga]

The max distance for your weapon hits is the min distance for bow, I can sit in one place during a fight and switch between the two no problem, using both ranged, and close attacks. Again, just because you don't know how to play ranger, doesn't mean it's a bad class.

[bli]

<DIV>hoo.  Good thread guys.  I don't think the ranger is necessarily MEANT to be good indoors though.  It talks about them being the masters of the brush, etc, and the assasins being good at scouting out dark cooridoors.  Hmm. </DIV>

[Karnacc]

<DIV>Its probably all for nothing....I wouldnt scrap the class if i really wanted to be one and play one. Remember how gimped rangers were in EQ1? They became extremely fun and useful after soe realized that they had issues. SoE will balance and tweak and do whatever to make all classes fun. They wont get it right the 1st time on all of em, but im sure Rangers will be fine.</DIV> <DIV>I plan on playing one till the end so I wont abandon mine if it seems a little gimped in the beginning. I guess it's everyones personal opinion though. If you are NOT having fun then dont play it . Play something else. But if you're patient and like the class for its uniqueness, ranged attacks or whatever, then stay with it--it'll get fixed (if it is broken).</DIV> <DIV>Its what you make of it also. If you know how to play it and take advantage of the special attacks you'll like it. Challenging classes just arent fun for some people. They wont it easy. If so, Ranger just aint your thing.</DIV> <DIV>It'll get balanced anyways till where playing ranger--like everything else, will be a matter of person play style. If you think about it, it already is.</DIV>

[Blacka]

<DIV>It would be nice to see rangers as a good class...for a change. Rangers are supose to be deadly with bow or sword, not sneak attacks or back stabbing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What they should do is give them a high percentage crit bow shot that, when in a group, can drop an average mob to half health in one shot without the huge agro-based on the distance. Heck, let em take a mob down half again with another crit if they get two in a row.  Next, make them the highest sword damage dealer in the game (not piercing, just swords), again, with the skill to avoid agro.  Keep them at the defense levels they are at, but give them huge dodge skills, parry skills. Give them outstanding outdoor travel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats it. They don't need rogue skills, they need ranger skills. A few changes that would make them a superb class, a class as good as any other but played based on what type of char you would want to play.</DIV>

[Kaga]

<DIV>Rangers are Hunters. Hunters need to be able to get to their prey, and attack from the shadows. This is what the vision of EQ2 Rangers is. We need to be focused on death. While I do think it would be nice to get the extra damage, my damage with bows is fantastic right now. </DIV>

[ST-Rebo]

<DIV>ok, so this thread has been great. My question is, how do the bow attacks really work, im level 9 - almost 10 right now. When i get my bow can i not just stand back and shoot, similar to a mage? is there always the neccesary moving in and out of melee range?  </DIV> <DIV>  either way, ranger is fun, ive had a great time in the early stages, i love attacking from the back while a fighter tanks.  </DIV>

[Audio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR><BR>And these are groups that had a scout in them already, adn loved the damamge I did. Notice how Vyspel, a ranger, has the higest damamge in all of EQ2, if you were following the trends, you would notice that the highest melee hit was from a bow for a long time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>that's only because there aren't any assassins with their five minute megahit yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited buffs. other scouts and mages boost group damage output just as much, only they do it through buffs procs etc and can do other things besides mindless button mashing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If you don't like it, don't play it.  Pretty simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously there are others out there who do enjoy the Ranger and how he is played.  Rangers do have a job, yes damage is it.  But they also have another job which is doing opposite of what Fighters do (taunt).  Rangers have to know how to keep aggro off of them.  That's why there are specials such as evade, stalk, trick shot, etc.  So there are a lot of tactics to a Ranger, you have to know when to play your cards, much like wizzies of EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, Rangers get some special damage attacks such as lighting strike and flaming shot and they share attack debuffs against piercing and slashing with the Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>None of us have played a Ranger extensively.  Level 25 isn't extensive.  It's like playing a Ranger for about 5 mins.  After some of us have reached level 35-40+ I think we'll be able to judge the class fairly.  Before that, if it's not for you play another class.</DIV><BR>

[To]

<DIV>To kagara : <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/guide.vm?classId=39&id=20" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/guide.vm?classId=39&id=20</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scout is not an hunter but an achievers....rofl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think  devs hate the ranger class........why ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we don't have any group buff...ohhh no excuse me... we have pathinding....(but in a fight pathinding don't work..).</DIV> <DIV>We don't have any utility in a groupe. </DIV> <DIV>Dps ? Mage class and fighter class have more dps than us ( moorgard wrote that fighter is a dps class ).</DIV> <DIV>HO maybe ? Hmmmm now with the new system of HO, all the class can do great HO, we have just the coin to change the HO.</DIV> <DIV>Disarm ? A group without disarm can open a chest with a little damage..... if a group have a big damage with a chest we will have just more downtime.</DIV> <DIV>Track now. Yeeeaaahhh cool track is great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but with the future website like allakhazam all the player will know where he can find their npc and the track will be useless. ( I don't see any npc move a lot. Just fanglord in a little forest in antonica..).</DIV> <DIV>And the ranger class have to buy poison and arrow...so we must do alchimist or woodworker......tsss</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solo now.. is not a fight with a mob but it's a fight with your keyboard. It's like street fighter. but i like this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to compare the ranger with the other scout subclass...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bard have a great utility in a groupe with their buff songs, Swach have a great group stealth, mezz etc.... THEY HAVE AN UTILITY IN A GROUP, and the ranger.........................................not hing............................................!! !!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In eq2player we can see that the scout class is the last class take by the players and i understand why......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't ask for an ubber class but just a real utility in a group ( disarm and track is a little bonus not like buff ). Maybe more dps ? or more group buff  ? or more bonus maybe.... I don't know.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the dev create the ranger in the game : They toke the rogue...output the group buff or the group utlity.... and input the bow skilll and they said " you will be the ranger... :p )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the lore the ranger like the nature and the nature like the ranger but why a bear hate me ? In eq1 the ranger are amiably with animals and i understand that it's normal...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my ranger but i don't want be like the druid in Eq1. I want find a group like a priest can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please devs , do a correct balancing the next time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : Sorry for my very bad english but i'm french.</DIV> <DIV>PS n°2 : You can see that the ranger board it's the only board where you can find negative post for a subclass.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[To]

<DIV>To kagara : <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/guide.vm?classId=39&id=20" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/guide.vm?classId=39&id=20</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scout is not an hunter but an achievers....rofl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think  devs hate the ranger class........why ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we don't have any group buff...ohhh no excuse me... we have pathinding....(but in a fight pathinding don't work..).</DIV> <DIV>We don't have any utility in a groupe. </DIV> <DIV>Dps ? Mage class and fighter class have more dps than us ( moorgard wrote that fighter is a dps class ).</DIV> <DIV>HO maybe ? Hmmmm now with the new system of HO, all the class can do great HO, we have just the coin to change the HO.</DIV> <DIV>Disarm ? A group without disarm can open a chest with a little damage..... if a group have a big damage with a chest we will have just more downtime.</DIV> <DIV>Track now. Yeeeaaahhh cool track is great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but with the future website like allakhazam all the player will know where he can find their npc and the track will be useless. ( I don't see any npc move a lot. Just fanglord in a little forest in antonica..).</DIV> <DIV>And the ranger class have to buy poison and arrow...so we must do alchimist or woodworker......tsss</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solo now.. is not a fight with a mob but it's a fight with your keyboard. It's like street fighter. but i like this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to compare the ranger with the other scout subclass...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bard have a great utility in a groupe with their buff songs, Swach have a great group stealth, mezz etc.... THEY HAVE AN UTILITY IN A GROUP, and the ranger.........................................not hing............................................!! !!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In eq2player we can see that the scout class is the last class take by the players and i understand why......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't ask for an ubber class but just a real utility in a group ( disarm and track is a little bonus not like buff ). Maybe more dps ? or more group buff  ? or more bonus maybe.... I don't know.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the dev create the ranger in the game : They toke the rogue...output the group buff or the group utlity.... and input the bow skilll and they said " you will be the ranger... :p )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the lore the ranger like the nature and the nature like the ranger but why a bear hate me ? In eq1 the ranger are amiably with animals and i understand that it's normal...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my ranger but i don't want be like the druid in Eq1. I want find a group like a priest can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please devs , do a correct balancing the next time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : Sorry for my very bad english but i'm french and it was very difficult for me to wrote this post.</DIV> <DIV>PS n°2 : You can see that the ranger board it's the only board where you can find negative post for a subclass.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Audio wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR><BR>And these are groups that had a scout in them already, adn loved the damamge I did. Notice how Vyspel, a ranger, has the higest damamge in all of EQ2, if you were following the trends, you would notice that the highest melee hit was from a bow for a long time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>that's only because there aren't any assassins with their five minute megahit yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited buffs. other scouts and mages boost group damage output just as much, only they do it through buffs procs etc and can do other things besides mindless button mashing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If you don't like it, don't play it.  Pretty simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>that's why I'm playing a bard now</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously there are others out there who do enjoy the Ranger and how he is played.  Rangers do have a job, yes damage is it.  But they also have another job which is doing opposite of what Fighters do (taunt).  Rangers have to know how to keep aggro off of them.  That's why there are specials such as evade, stalk, trick shot, etc.  So there are a lot of tactics to a Ranger, you have to know when to play your cards, much like wizzies of EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>the only times I ever pulled aggro in a group was when </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A) tank was incompetent and would not taunt</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>B) every single attack in my initial sequence hit and got good damage rolls, and even then it'd only pull aggro once every several hours of hunting</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>so no, there are no aggro-management tactics required, all you do is stand behind the mob and mash the buttons as they refresh</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, Rangers get some special damage attacks such as lighting strike and flaming shot and they share attack debuffs against piercing and slashing with the Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>whoopee, different damage types. damage is damage, and nothing but damage is boring as hell.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>None of us have played a Ranger extensively.  Level 25 isn't extensive.  It's like playing a Ranger for about 5 mins.  After some of us have reached level 35-40+ I think we'll be able to judge the class fairly.  Before that, if it's not for you play another class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>skilltree to 50 has been available for quite a while and it's just more of the same.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Trobon the Oran]

<DIV>Rangers are teh lords of Everquest. We are not the most respected due to our hygine, but we rule all that we see. We are not understood by all and that's why we are rarer than other more falshy classes, but that suits us fine. If you don't like ranger fine, but don't troll our board any more, cause we have better things to do.</DIV>

[Archanis]

<DIV>I played a ranger to level 27 in Beta, and although I agree with some of what Griz is saying, I still had a blast playing my ranger.  One thing I don't do is try to compare myself with other classes (even within the archtype).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had a lot of fun with the bow combat abilities.  I really can't say how good they are because the combat arts changed a lot during the last few weeks of beta -- I didn't get all my skills up to at least adept 1.  I was still doing some great damage with app2 skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mind not having all the utilities that other scouts have.  Yes I wish we got increased movement speed while stealthed like the other scouts -- I think everytime a scout levels, they should move a little bit faster while stealthed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember Griz, that was beta, and they were still doing a lot of tweaking.</DIV>

[Blacka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rangers are Hunters. Hunters need to be able to get to their prey, and attack from the shadows. This is what the vision of EQ2 Rangers is. We need to be focused on death. While I do think it would be nice to get the extra damage, my damage with bows is fantastic right now. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I understand what you are saying here, and that is well and good, but the game is, and will eventually come down to, grouping worth. In order to be a viable class, the ranger has to fall into that. In short, have the ability to work with a group that is pulling and continually killing, or raiding a top end mob. </P> <P>That is why I stated that the ranger needs a more viable role. That can be done with the bow with little problem. Group only crits will solve that with the ranger having a high percentage of taking 1/8 the hp of a mob, less % of taking 1/4 hp, even lesser percent of 1/2 the hp, and the very rare chance of takng 3/4 hp-with the percentages going up or down depending on the level of the mob. That alone would make bowfighting worth it, and make rangers viable.</P> <P>Add to that, high end sword dps, a couple of buffs, great dodge and parry skills (so he can't really tank, but can avoid damage) and you have a great killing machine that would be desired in any group. </P> <P>Just how I see the ranger class. </P>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackard wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rangers are Hunters. Hunters need to be able to get to their prey, and attack from the shadows. This is what the vision of EQ2 Rangers is. We need to be focused on death. While I do think it would be nice to get the extra damage, my damage with bows is fantastic right now. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I understand what you are saying here, and that is well and good, but the game is, and will eventually come down to, grouping worth. In order to be a viable class, the ranger has to fall into that. In short, have the ability to work with a group that is pulling and continually killing, or raiding a top end mob. </P> <P>That is why I stated that the ranger needs a more viable role. That can be done with the bow with little problem. Group only crits will solve that with the ranger having a high percentage of taking 1/8 the hp of a mob, less % of taking 1/4 hp, even lesser percent of 1/2 the hp, and the very rare chance of takng 3/4 hp-with the percentages going up or down depending on the level of the mob. That alone would make bowfighting worth it, and make rangers viable.</P> <P>Add to that, high end sword dps, a couple of buffs, great dodge and parry skills (so he can't really tank, but can avoid damage) and you have a great killing machine that would be desired in any group. </P> <P>Just how I see the ranger class. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well I will almost be exclusively grouping with my guild, so I won't have too much worry about desirability. Keeping Blade Flurry up all the time, I can drop a mobs health failr quickly when it procs, you have no idea how important this skill is, always keep it up.</DIV> <DIV>Use your buffs, you will do massive damage every once in awhile, that will make groups seriously desire your DPS. </DIV>

[Blacka]

<DIV>Kag, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> That is along the lines of what I wanted to hear regarding ranger bow damage. Nice to see something like that.</DIV>

[Pale_Fire]

<DIV>I'm still not sure what the fuss is about.  You're evaluating the worth of a class based on 5 levels of experience.  Rangers don't get their bow specials till 20.  They have no bow related specials prior to that.  By 25, they've gotten a handful of the skills they'll be using over the course of their career as Rangers.  In a way, it's almost like starting a new character.  Obviously, there are a number of post level 25 Rangers who've seen success with the class.  By the way, describing the class as boring because all you do is mash buttons is just stupid.  All classes are that way.  Fighter, Mage, Cleric and Scout are all button mashing festivals.  You push the buttons in the right sequence to get the desired result.  Clerics and crowd controllers are a little more sophisticated, but not by much.  I'm not gonna accept the opinion of one or two people who've only played 5 or 6 levels of the class.</DIV>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pale_Fire wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm still not sure what the fuss is about.  You're evaluating the worth of a class based on 5 levels of experience.  Rangers don't get their bow specials till 20.  They have no bow related specials prior to that.  By 25, they've gotten a handful of the skills they'll be using over the course of their career as Rangers.  In a way, it's almost like starting a new character.  Obviously, there are a number of post level 25 Rangers who've seen success with the class.  By the way, describing the class as boring because all you do is mash buttons is just stupid.  All classes are that way.  Fighter, Mage, Cleric and Scout are all button mashing festivals.  You push the buttons in the right sequence to get the desired result.  Clerics and crowd controllers are a little more sophisticated, but not by much.  I'm not gonna accept the opinion of one or two people who've only played 5 or 6 levels of the class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You get bow special attacks starting at level 15 and 16, then one special at 20. </P> <P>Now while you can not really say you know a class till it's lived in, you can get a feel for combat. But I think people should be moving a lot of these comments to the Predator forum, until they are actually a ranger, and can comment. <BR></P>

[Pale_Fire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pale_Fire wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm still not sure what the fuss is about.  You're evaluating the worth of a class based on 5 levels of experience.  Rangers don't get their bow specials till 20.  They have no bow related specials prior to that.  By 25, they've gotten a handful of the skills they'll be using over the course of their career as Rangers.  In a way, it's almost like starting a new character.  Obviously, there are a number of post level 25 Rangers who've seen success with the class.  By the way, describing the class as boring because all you do is mash buttons is just stupid.  All classes are that way.  Fighter, Mage, Cleric and Scout are all button mashing festivals.  You push the buttons in the right sequence to get the desired result.  Clerics and crowd controllers are a little more sophisticated, but not by much.  I'm not gonna accept the opinion of one or two people who've only played 5 or 6 levels of the class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You get bow special attacks starting at level 15 and 16, then one special at 20. </P> <P>Now while you can not really say you know a class till it's lived in, you can get a feel for combat. But I think people should be moving a lot of these comments to the Predator forum, until they are actually a ranger, and can comment. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My bad.  I thought bow attacks didn't start appearing till 20.<BR>

[Lord Bi]

lol, where are you guys digging up all this stuff? Rangers are the Lords of Norrath, NRA of Norrath, Killers of Norrath ... we skulk in bushes and foist the lives from our prey with the greatest of skill!! ... blah blah. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was considering playing a Ranger. Apparently I need to cook up some grandiose titles for him if I do.

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lord Biff wrote:<BR>lol, where are you guys digging up all this stuff? Rangers are the Lords of Norrath, NRA of Norrath, Killers of Norrath ... we skulk in bushes and foist the lives from our prey with the greatest of skill!! ... blah blah. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>I was considering playing a Ranger. Apparently I need to cook up some grandiose titles for him if I do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Dude, rangers are the shizzy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You have to be the baddest, and play the same if you hope to survive <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ZNI]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited  buffs.....</P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm... the above sounds like a Mage. I guess we should take them out of the game too?</P> <P>In any case, I'm a scout and torn between the 2.  One thing that does disappoint me, is that they call a ranger a "stealth based" class, yet they don't get group stealth?  What's with that?</P> <P> </P> <P>Z</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bli]

<DIV>In the fantasy world rangers are notoriously solitary, usually only congregating with other rangers.  It's not surprising, then, that a ranger would have no need of group stealth.  Whereas an Assassin, a hired thug, might need to hide hirelings of his own that he picked up to help with a job.  Hey, just working with the Genre.  Shoot me down.</DIV>

[ST-Rebo]

<DIV>Guys, look at EQ2 players website and look what class has all the highest melee damage hits! Its the predators! we own! we just need a tank so we can attack fro mthe backside and use our stalk.  </DIV> <DIV> one question though, what is the reconassaince skill do? and what does it mean hehe? </DIV> <DIV>thanks for the help</DIV>

[Cex]

<DIV>Yup ranger sucks ballz. Everyone should just drop subject and go play something else now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>waiting...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>waiting...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>still here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But ranger suck, why are you still here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hurry along now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Odd. Rangers suck but you cant seem to move on. Sounds like commitment issues. Now run along, less competition for me.</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZNICK wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited  buffs.....</P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm... the above sounds like a Mage. I guess we should take them out of the game too?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>did you miss the parts where I said that mages do a hell of a lot more than BUTTON MASH FOR TEH WIN? they have all kinds of buffs, debuffs, DOTs, summons, etc.</FONT></P> <P>In any case, I'm a scout and torn between the 2.  One thing that does disappoint me, is that they call a ranger a "stealth based" class, yet they don't get group stealth?  What's with that?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>group stealth is a rogue-exclusive ability. "stealth based" class means most of their decent attacks are done from stealth.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cexia wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Odd. Rangers suck but you cant seem to move on. Sounds like commitment issues. Now run along, less competition for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>did you miss the parts where I said I AM NOT PLAYING A RANGER?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Pale_Fire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZNICK wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ranger does damage by button-mashing, and that's it. they serve no other purpose whatsoever. no taunt, no crowd control, very limited  buffs.....</P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm... the above sounds like a Mage. I guess we should take them out of the game too?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>did you miss the parts where I said that mages do a hell of a lot more than BUTTON MASH FOR TEH WIN? they have all kinds of buffs, debuffs, DOTs, summons, etc.</FONT></P> <P>In any case, I'm a scout and torn between the 2.  One thing that does disappoint me, is that they call a ranger a "stealth based" class, yet they don't get group stealth?  What's with that?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>group stealth is a rogue-exclusive ability. "stealth based" class means most of their decent attacks are done from stealth.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cexia wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Odd. Rangers suck but you cant seem to move on. Sounds like commitment issues. Now run along, less competition for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>did you miss the parts where I said I AM NOT PLAYING A RANGER?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Griz, all classes have a degree of button mashing, particularly fighter classes.  It's obvious you're bitter that SOE's Ranger class isn't what you wanted.  Play you're Bard and move on.<BR>

[bli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>did you miss the parts where I said that mages do a hell of a lot more than BUTTON MASH FOR TEH WIN? they have all kinds of buffs, debuffs, DOTs, summons, etc.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The only problem with this statement is that, you cast debuffs and dots, and control pets, by depressing (mashing) buttons.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have all kinds of attacks, stealthed, range, etc.  your argument is stupid, a video game is button mashing period.  We mash buttons more often because our buttons refresh faster, that doesn't change the fact that all classes push a certain and often identical combination of buttons to survive an encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really, that was a nice try.  Too bad about being wrong and all.  Kisses!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-blitz</DIV>

[Sembri]

<DIV>I'm still yet a Predator (13) but I'm going Ranger.  Bummer that so many people seem to be unhappy with the class, but I'll wait until I'm higher level to pass judgment on it.  Regardless, just like EQ and all the other games I've played, I'm going ranger and sticking with it through thick and thin.  If indeed it is gimped compared to other classes, I'll just have to trust to SOE to help the class out.  It took them 4 years in EQ to makes Rangers a class actually wanted for grouping, but they did it.  I think they've learned since then how to balance classes a bit more, and they do listen to us when we have valid complaints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lot of people are like me and just want to play a Ranger regardless of anything else.  I may have to lean on RL friends and guildies for groups later on, but I'll worry about it then.  If you don't want to play a Ranger, don't.  Some people seem obsessed with maximizing their DPS potential and being leet.  I'm sure the Assassin and Bards classes will love to have ya!  I'm here to have fun, and so far I am.</DIV>

[podu]

<DIV><FONT color=#009900>I wish I would have read this post before I started down the dark path....oh well.</FONT></DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>So many people?  It looks like ONE person that's been unhappy.  Focus.  One.  It's going to be OK. </DIV>

[AS7GAtl]

<DIV>People here seem to think the ranger class is "[Removed for Content]" such as it was in EQ1.  Negating the fact that no one ahs a ranger higher than 25, you are not realizing that a ranger class is a lot harder to play.  In EQ1 rangers were a very good class, except that most people playing them were idiots who didn't know how to play the class (myself included).  There was one ranger that got Cazic Thule down to half health solo.  Rangers have always been a good class.  They just require a bit of brains behind the keyboard to be viable.  You can't expect to be an awesome tank or crowd controller while being a ranger.  As a ranger you have to concentrate on doing as much dmg as possible as quickly as possible.  So chances are if you have a ranger in your group and he's doing nothing viably for the group, then chances are he's and idiot that should play a simpler class,  such as a fighter or mage.</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>ZING.  Go atlas.  You crazy battlemech sunuvawoodelf.</DIV>

[Reichevel]

<DIV>During beta the class with the highest melee hit was a swashbuckler.  Just thought I'd clarify that.</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>But if you recall the last two weeks of beta, an incredible amount of changes were made, especially to the scout class in general.</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AS7GAtlas wrote:<BR> <DIV>People here seem to think the ranger class is "[Removed for Content]" such as it was in EQ1.  Negating the fact that no one ahs a ranger higher than 25, you are not realizing that a ranger class is a lot harder to play.  In EQ1 rangers were a very good class, except that most people playing them were idiots who didn't know how to play the class (myself included).  There was one ranger that got Cazic Thule down to half health solo.  Rangers have always been a good class.  They just require a bit of brains behind the keyboard to be viable.  You can't expect to be an awesome tank or crowd controller while being a ranger.  As a ranger you have to concentrate on doing as much dmg as possible as quickly as possible.  So chances are if you have a ranger in your group and he's doing nothing viably for the group, then chances are he's and idiot that should play a simpler class,  such as a fighter or mage.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What are you on about? Ranger is the most MIND-BLOWINGLY BORING CLASS when grouped. All you ever do is stand behind the mob and mash the same sequence of attacks over and over. Caster, melee, single, multiple, NO DIFFERENCE. It's all the same and it's all boring as hell. It requires no tactics or thought and has very little in common with the EQ1 ranger.</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>Griz, you whiny son of a gnomish knave, I've SEEN you on Steamfont.  You're a level 10 Fighter.  FIGHTER.  Fi-gh-t-er!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really have no idea how complex a ranger can be to play, it's because you don't understand how this game is played.  That being the case, you will never, ever become good at any class, and no one will ever want to group with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plz enjoy your life as teh suck.  kthxbye.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>xoxo,</DIV> <DIV>blitz</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blitz wrote:<BR> <DIV>Griz, you whiny son of a gnomish knave, I've SEEN you on Steamfont.  You're a level 10 Fighter.  FIGHTER.  Fi-gh-t-er!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Is this supposed to be a joke, or are you seriously so stupid that you have not realized that</DIV> <DIV>1) there are a lot of servers</DIV> <DIV>2) forum name is not the same as character name</DIV> <DIV>3) I SAID SEVERAL TIMES THAT I AM PLAYING A BARD</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>No, it wasn't a joke, but when I'm flaming someone I like to test them, the test works like this;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I put in two parts of the flame, a part that is idle trash talk and a part about their real deficencies. Now, if they respond to the whole post equally it doesn't really tell me anything.  If they pretty much ignore the idle trash talk and respond to the meat of the flame, it shows a person of intelligence, and I don't automatically discount them, but read their response and consider changing my viewpoint.  However, if they respond only to the idle trash and glaze over the actual FLAME portion of the flame, I tend to immediately discount them and anything else they say.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You win the top prize!  Thanks for playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>xoxo,</DIV> <DIV>blitz</DIV>

[Boza]

<DIV>Griz,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isn't there something in the Bard forums you can be crying about?  While I think everyone appreciates your candor, your stupefying, ignorant approach to intelligent discussion is mind-numbingly boring.  Certainly there are elements of the Ranger class that need to be re-evaluated and re-balanced.  I have experienced none of the "button-mashing monotony" that you claim is so prevalent, and clearly others have not either; if I may be blunt, the entire game is one series of button-mashing tasks after another.  If that's not your bag, Half-Life 2 came out this week--the button-mashing is combined with physical aiming in that game, try it.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My damage is very comparable to the rogue in our group indoors, and if we're outdoors I offer significantly more utility.  This seems to be by design; rangers were never designed to be an indoor-centric class.  It sounds to me like you were expecting some kind of Ultimate Super Ninja class that simply doesn't exist, or you expected the Ranger to offer the nonstop action of a FPS game--I'm not sure.  I'd also like to point out that, if EQ2 is like any other fantasy MMO that's ever existed, none of us will really know what the class's TRUE functionality is until the endgame.  Having played rangers in EQ1 and DAoC and infiltrators in Planetside and DAoC, I can comfortably say that complaints about a class's "utility" or perceived lack thereof tend to be ubiquitous in the early phases of the game before most players have had an opportunity to test their mettle in large group encounters and find their niche.  I suspect EQ2 will be no different.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's been said before in this thread, but I'll reiterate:  if you don't like the class, don't play it, and don't cry about it--don't complain that they didn't consult Griz's Big Book of What a Ranger Should Be before they designed their game.  It's far too early to be demanding sweeping changes to a class, and frankly the only element of your post with which I agree is the assertion that we should get rapid stealth movement earlier (outdoor-only, at the very least).  </DIV>

[Boza]

<P>double post</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Bozack on <span class=date_text>11-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

[bli]

<DIV>Bozack, I am humbled.  Nice post.</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bozack wrote:<BR> <DIV>Griz,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isn't there something in the Bard forums you can be crying about?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I rather enjoy bard and have not found anything tremendously annoying or broken. I can even solo mobs two levels above.</FONT>   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My damage is very comparable to the rogue in our group indoors, and if we're outdoors I offer significantly more utility.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>What utility? You don't have ANYTHING except damage moves and some rather useless debuffs or hate manipulators.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's far too early to be demanding sweeping changes to a class, and frankly the only element of your post with which I agree is the assertion that we should get rapid stealth movement earlier (outdoor-only, at the very least).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The skill lists have been available since a few days after the big change in beta - looking at the skill list shows that nothing changes later and you don't get anything except more of the same damage moves and rather useless debuffs.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Boza]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000> "The skill lists have been available since a few days after the big change in beta - looking at the skill list shows that nothing changes later and you don't get anything except more of the same damage moves and rather useless debuffs."</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>This is a statement so grounded in ignorance that I'm loath to even respond to it, but what the heck, I'll take the bait.  You do realize that saying this is akin to saying "lolz I read it in teh Prima guide so that's teh way it is lololoz u n00b!" right?  Looking at a skill tree and pretending to be the end-all be-all arbiter of a class's utility is absurd to the extreme.  The <STRONG>only </STRONG>way to evaluate the full skill-set of a class is to play the class, period.  If, in a couple months, the bulk of the Rangering community expresses similar dissatisfaction with the role of their class, then threads like this will be justified.  As it stands now, however, this is just more of the same puling nonsense that ends up getting classes nerfed beyond recognition in every MMO, ever.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have rogue envy, play a rogue.  Period.  I'm thrilled that you're enjoying the bard, and that you can solo pairs of monsters two levels higher than you--though if that is the case, I can't wait to see your response when some whining member of another class sees you doing it and demands a nerf or cries because their class can't do the things bards can.  This type of self-interested whining in the early phases of the game is precisely why so many MMOs are doomed before they begin--everyone wants to be the flavor-of-the-month uberclass, and if they can't solo/tank/pull/nuke/heal/sneak as well as [insert class here] they cry like babies and demand the devs give them satisfaction.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not everyone is going to be the special and unique snowflake.  If the Ranger class isn't helping to fill whatever empty void exists deep down inside your self-esteem, play your Bard and revel in his ability to do all of the things you feel the Ranger can't.  In the meantime, the rest of us will continue to enjoy our class, and when things have settled enough that we can get a true, accurate, objective analysis of how we match up to the other classes, then we will speak up about tweaking if necessary.  Pre-emptive crying based on a table you read on a website is silly, IMHO.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If nothing else, I sincerely hope that this thread has discouraged all the kids who wanted to have a guy (named Aragornnn or Legoleaf or NeoTheOne or Wulverine) and hoped he would be the Ultimate Super Uber Fighting Ninja Machine from playing a Ranger. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Pale_Fire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bozack wrote:<BR> <DIV>Griz,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isn't there something in the Bard forums you can be crying about?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I rather enjoy bard and have not found anything tremendously annoying or broken. I can even solo mobs two levels above.</FONT>   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My damage is very comparable to the rogue in our group indoors, and if we're outdoors I offer significantly more utility.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>What utility? You don't have ANYTHING except damage moves and some rather useless debuffs or hate manipulators.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's far too early to be demanding sweeping changes to a class, and frankly the only element of your post with which I agree is the assertion that we should get rapid stealth movement earlier (outdoor-only, at the very least).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The skill lists have been available since a few days after the big change in beta - looking at the skill list shows that nothing changes later and you don't get anything except more of the same damage moves and rather useless debuffs.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Griz, the one thing you seem to cling to is this button mashing.  You don't seem to particularly interested in pointing out that other classes have this same "issue", if that's what you want to call it.  Fighters have it in abundance.   I repeat, go play your bard and leave this board alone. <BR> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P></FONT><FONT face=Arial> </P></FONT></DIV>

[Kaga]

<DIV>Uh yeah... about the rangers suck thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am the highest level ranger in EQ2 at the moment... and ummm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People ALWAYS want me in their groups, I do massive damage. I can pull amazingly, and those "worthless" hate manipulators... well when a ranger pulls with one, adn the tank get's aggro, the tank keeps aggro, regardless of what everyone else tries to do. </DIV>

[Audio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pale_Fire wrote:<BR><BR>Griz, the one thing you seem to cling to is this button mashing.  You don't seem to particularly interested in pointing out that other classes have this same "issue", if that's what you want to call it.  Fighters have it in abundance.   I repeat, go play your bard and leave this board alone. <BR> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P></FONT><FONT face=Arial> </P></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/agree</P> <P>I dont' know what this guy is hung up on.  If you're not playing a ranger then let it go.<BR></P>

[Jowa]

<DIV>If you were level 40+ in Beta, may be your assessments would be more accurate?  20 something is hardly high enough to see the overall picture about a class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want rangers to kickass AND an overall lack of "button-smashing" as well as "PERFECT teamwork" in parties, go try out FFXI - I am sure it'll make you cry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If something's broken about a certain class, it's likely to be fixed - I doubt ANY MMORPG is balanced at the time of launch.    Bringing up balance problems is nice, but when it turns to [Removed for Content] rants it gets stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my two cents.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jowana on <span class=date_text>11-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>Uh yeah... about the rangers suck thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am the highest level ranger in EQ2 at the moment... and ummm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People ALWAYS want me in their groups<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I saw you saying LFG every 10 minutes in Thundering Steppes for at least two hours</DIV>

[pseudocide]

<blockquote><hr>Griz wrote:<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>What utility? You don't have ANYTHING except damage moves and some rather useless debuffs or hate manipulators.</FONT></DIV></hr></blockquote>rangers have no utility? we might not be "jacks of all trades" like bards in eq1, but we can still pull, track, scout, and cast pathfinder, that is about what rangers could do in eq1(not taking into account lame druid hand-me-downs, and since eq1 snare doesnt exist in eq2)<p>Message Edited by pseudocide on <span class=date_text>11-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span><p>Message Edited by pseudocide on <span class=date_text>11-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>Uh yeah... about the rangers suck thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am the highest level ranger in EQ2 at the moment... and ummm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People ALWAYS want me in their groups<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I saw you saying LFG every 10 minutes in Thundering Steppes for at least two hours</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You did not see the groups I was rejecting either. I was after something very specific for my final armor quest, and was soloing the whole time. On top of this, most of the higher level groups now just want to make sure they stay higher level than me, as on our server most people think I am competition.

[Neec]

<DIV>Well i have to agree i chose predater cuz i wanted to be a ranger i didnt get to see the skills past level 20 until i was level 16 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> looking at the ranger skills they do all seem bow based.. )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now at 20-30 thats not really a problem cuz im sure your skills like shadow blade and that will still be quite effective in melee.. but after level 30 i can see a very big problem for rangers if they can only deal good damage with a bow and anyone thats tried kiting knows its  well its just not good..   You cant run forward cuz you cant see the mob to shoot at it.. so you have to run backwards when you cant actually see where your going so you dont know if your going to pick up agro or not .. suppose you do run forward so you can see where your going you have to stop and stand stil lto use a bow special by which time the mob is on you and our getting spammed with your too close to the mob.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really want to be a ranger but i would like a balance of bow and melee skills, i dont want the UBEREST melee skills but i would like to think that at level 35 say i can hold my own in melee combat  cuz if i can only rely on bow at that level rangers are pretty much excluded from dungeons / coves or any confined spaces  or even spaces with lots of agro mobs.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have big concerns at the moment, i will go ranger and see how it plays  but i really hope i dont end up having to reroll to a useful class that is welcomed in groups and that can solo..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OH im in quenos so i dont really have much choice but to go ranger... im not sure if i have to betray quenos to become an assasain..   OOh im so confused.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to rely on a class that is no use whatsoever if the servers get laggy.. but i also want my pet Hawk and panter.... .</DIV>

[Reichevel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <DIV>Uh yeah... about the rangers suck thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am the highest level ranger in EQ2 at the moment... and ummm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People ALWAYS want me in their groups<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I saw you saying LFG every 10 minutes in Thundering Steppes for at least two hours</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You did not see the groups I was rejecting either. I was after something very specific for my final armor quest, and was soloing the whole time. On top of this, most of the higher level groups now just want to make sure they stay higher level than me, as on our server most people think I am competition.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>O.K.  I don't get involved in these flame fests as a general rule but I just had to point something out.  Could you be anymore concieted?</DIV> <DIV>Nobody gives a Ratonga's backside how high of a level you are or if your the highest level ranger in game.  You keep posting and making Griz's argument more and more valid by sounding like a condecending, concieted, overbearing individual.    Keep in mind I'm not calling you this but your posts make you sound like that.  Guess what?  I don't care if your a lvl 50 ranger.  You will never be the best at anything because you blow your own horn more than Dizzy Gillespy at a jazz festival.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any opinion you have, no matter how valid or correct, is overshadowed by the way you come across.     </DIV>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reichevel wrote:<BR> <DIV>O.K.  I don't get involved in these flame fests as a general rule but I just had to point something out.  Could you be anymore concieted?</DIV> <DIV>Nobody gives a Ratonga's backside how high of a level you are or if your the highest level ranger in game.  You keep posting and making Griz's argument more and more valid by sounding like a condecending, concieted, overbearing individual.    Keep in mind I'm not calling you this but your posts make you sound like that.  Guess what?  I don't care if your a lvl 50 ranger.  You will never be the best at anything because you blow your own horn more than Dizzy Gillespy at a jazz festival.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any opinion you have, no matter how valid or correct, is overshadowed by the way you come across.     </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know why my point is more valid? Because I have experience playing a Ranger past beta. You know why my level is important? Because I have more experience playing Ranger past beta. You know why I get to blow my own Horn, because I contribute more help to more ranger, and rangers to be than most others do. So you know what? [Removed for Content] off. I get people that will join my server to ask questions, or send me tells from other servers / EQ for questions. I get to blow my own god **bleep** horn, because I earned the right. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like my attitude, you can go ahead and cram it up your butt. My points are valid because I actually AM a ranger, and Griz is NOT. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kagara on <span class=date_text>11-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Reichevel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kagara wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reichevel wrote:<BR> <DIV>O.K.  I don't get involved in these flame fests as a general rule but I just had to point something out.  Could you be anymore concieted?</DIV> <DIV>Nobody gives a Ratonga's backside how high of a level you are or if your the highest level ranger in game.  You keep posting and making Griz's argument more and more valid by sounding like a condecending, concieted, overbearing individual.    Keep in mind I'm not calling you this but your posts make you sound like that.  Guess what?  I don't care if your a lvl 50 ranger.  You will never be the best at anything because you blow your own horn more than Dizzy Gillespy at a jazz festival.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any opinion you have, no matter how valid or correct, is overshadowed by the way you come across.     </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know why my point is more valid? Because I have experience playing a Ranger past beta. You know why my level is important? Because I have more experience playing Ranger past beta. You know why I get to blow my own Horn, because I contribute more help to more ranger, and rangers to be than most others do. So you know what? [Removed for Content] off. I get people that will join my server to ask questions, or send me tells from other servers / EQ for questions. I get to blow my own god **bleep** horn, because I earned the right. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like my attitude, you can go ahead and cram it up your butt. My points are valid because I actually AM a ranger, and Griz is NOT. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kagara on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I rest my case.  I played a ranger during beta.   I know some of your points are valid.  The fact that you have more levels than anyone else right now doesn't make you the end all know all.   You, sir, have a serious attitude problem.  It bleeds over into your posts and makes you <EM>sound </EM>like a blowhard.   I appreciate the fact that you are a ranger now.   I know the class is powerful.   I played one all through beta.  This does not change the fact that, due to your attitude, alot of people do not consider your points valid.   This is, possibly, why Griz is giving you such a hard time.  Just food for thought.  By the way your insults and suggestions as to what to cram up my butt, while quite humerous, just proves the fact that your taking this too personally.  It's a game and nobody has to give you respect.  You earn it.  You, sir, have not earned one iota of respect from me.   Like I stated before I played a ranger throughout beta and there isn't anything you can tell me about them I don't already know.   I wish you good luck and safe travels and I hope that eventually you will realize you aren't God at EQ2 and your contributions are not God like.     Show some humility man.  In the end people will respect you more.<BR>

[bli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reichevel wrote:<BR> <DIV>O.K.  I don't get involved in these flame fests as a general rule but I just had to point something out.  Could you be anymore concieted?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Nobody gives a Ratonga's backside how high of a level you are or if your the highest level ranger in game. </FONT> <FONT color=#3300ff><FONT color=#00cc00>You keep posting and making Griz's argument more and more valid by sounding like a condecending, concieted, overbearing individual.   </FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#0033ff>Keep in mind I'm not calling you this but your posts make you sound like that.</FONT>  Guess what?  I don't care if your a lvl 50 ranger.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any opinion you have, no matter how valid or correct, is overshadowed by the way you come across.     </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I have a couple of problems with this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, regarding the comments I have highlighted in Red...You are precisley the exact opposite of right.  This statement was a foolish one, you should have considered the context of our discussion before making it.  The level that he is has an INCREDIBLE bearing on the conversation, because we're discussing the efficacy of the ranger class, something that isn't determined completelyuntil level 40 - 50, but doesn't even BEGIN to be determined until level 25 or so.  So yes, him saying that he's a level 24 - 25 ranger has bearing.  We care because it lets us know that he is speaking from a position of authoritative knowledge, not out of his backside.  So your primary assertion is bunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the blue, "I'm not calling you this" -- that is precisely the opposite of what you're not doing.  Not able to follow that sentence?  Let me rephrase; YES YOU ARE!  in the green text you call him that.  If you HADN'T called him it, you wouldn't be able to say you weren't calling him it.  Don't BS about "Well thats just how it sounds, I'm not SAYING it, I'm just saying he seems that way."  If you're going to insult someone, insult them.  Don't pussyfoot around it.  But if you insult them, dont' say you didn't just, in the sentence immediately following the insult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you decide to join flame wars, please to be joining the side that:</DIV> <DIV>a) didn't start it</DIV> <DIV>b) has more grounds for their beliefs</DIV> <DIV>c) is right</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>xoxo,</DIV> <DIV>blitz</DIV>

[Reichevel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blitz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reichevel wrote:<BR> <DIV>O.K.  I don't get involved in these flame fests as a general rule but I just had to point something out.  Could you be anymore concieted?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Nobody gives a Ratonga's backside how high of a level you are or if your the highest level ranger in game. </FONT> <FONT color=#3300ff><FONT color=#00cc00>You keep posting and making Griz's argument more and more valid by sounding like a condecending, concieted, overbearing individual.   </FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#0033ff>Keep in mind I'm not calling you this but your posts make you sound like that.</FONT>  Guess what?  I don't care if your a lvl 50 ranger.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any opinion you have, no matter how valid or correct, is overshadowed by the way you come across.     </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I have a couple of problems with this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, regarding the comments I have highlighted in Red...You are precisley the exact opposite of right.  This statement was a foolish one, you should have considered the context of our discussion before making it.  The level that he is has an INCREDIBLE bearing on the conversation, because we're discussing the efficacy of the ranger class, something that isn't determined completelyuntil level 40 - 50, but doesn't even BEGIN to be determined until level 25 or so.  So yes, him saying that he's a level 24 - 25 ranger has bearing.  We care because it lets us know that he is speaking from a position of authoritative knowledge, not out of his backside.  So your primary assertion is bunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the blue, "I'm not calling you this" -- that is precisely the opposite of what you're not doing.  Not able to follow that sentence?  Let me rephrase; YES YOU ARE!  in the green text you call him that.  If you HADN'T called him it, you wouldn't be able to say you weren't calling him it.  Don't BS about "Well thats just how it sounds, I'm not SAYING it, I'm just saying he seems that way."  If you're going to insult someone, insult them.  Don't pussyfoot around it.  But if you insult them, dont' say you didn't just, in the sentence immediately following the insult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you decide to join flame wars, please to be joining the side that:</DIV> <DIV>a) didn't start it</DIV> <DIV>b) has more grounds for their beliefs</DIV> <DIV>c) is right</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>xoxo,</DIV> <DIV>blitz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>an A for reading comprehension.  I digress.   You are correct and he is correct.  I am wrong and the Norrath revolves around him.   </P> <P> </P> <P>You should not.</P> <P>a.  read my post and see that I am not disagreeing with his knowledge</P> <P>b. Understand the fact that I never called him any name.  Merely pointed out how he was coming across.</P> <P>c. Really don't care if he thinks he is God and you believe him.<BR></P>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reichevel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>an A for reading comprehension.  I digress.   You are correct and he is correct.  I am wrong and the Norrath revolves around him.   </P> <P> </P> <P>You should not.</P> <P>a.  read my post and see that I am not disagreeing with his knowledge</P> <P>b. Understand the fact that I never called him any name.  Merely pointed out how he was coming across.</P> <P>c. Really don't care if he thinks he is God and you believe him.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, this is about all I am saying on this in regards to Reichaval. I am refuting Blitz's theory, with what I know from actual experience. I don't think I am god, but I for sure have more to say on the way things actually are. At the time of most of what I wrote in this thread, I was the ONLY ranger in eq2. Now more people are leveling and realizing that yeah I am right. This is a thread about comparing FACT to Theory. </P> <P>But thank you for joining the thread, taking it off course, and for some reason thinking that anyone cares about how you think I sound. Way to introduce yourself to the boards... </FONT></P> <P><BR></P>

[Reichevel]

<DIV>Actually I'm not introducing myself to the boards. I was quite active in the beta boards.   I also had quite a post count until they reset everything so introductions are not necessary.  I did not hijack your thread.  I merely pointed out why people may not want to listen to your advice.  Take it however you want it.  I never called you names or said what you were saying wasn't true.   I just said the way you were coming across may leave people a little raw.    Dont even look down your nose at me and act like I haven't provided anything to the boards.  During beta I had countless productive posts that helped iron out issues with the scout/predator/ranger class.    You are not above me.   You just have more time to play on a day to day basis it seems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that having your levels does give you the knowledge, to a degree.   I agree that what you are saying is true about the Ranger class.  I know it's true.  Like I said I played one in Beta.    I can't speak for other players I'm just saying you rubbed me wrong.  Whatever, that's just my opinion and perception of your posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To continue with the topic of the thread since you think I'm hijacking.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ranger class is, possibly, one of the most prolific soloers in game at the moment.  I had no problem in beta using a bow and taking on pretty much anything my level and sometimes yellow.   So, yes, Griz is incorrect in his theory that Rangers "suck".    I will also finish this post by saying the highest melee hit during beta was done by a swashbuckler but on a day to day basis the top melee damagers on the beta servers were predators/rangers/swashbucklers.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Reichevel on <span class=date_text>11-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 AM</span>

[bli]

<DIV>I never said vyspel was God.  Just..you know.  A god.  hahaha.  Don't worry Reichav, we're really much nicer than this, you just hit on a tender spot..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What class do you play?  Ranger I assume?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vysp -- I'm using a sword you discovered!  I just got the blackened iron rapier and the oakmyst forged sabre, and ONE of those two, was discovered by Vyspel of Mistmoore (I don't remember which one)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty stoked to see what my DPS will be with them, since they are med dmg/ med-low delay.</DIV>

[ST-Rebo]

<DIV>i like ranger. its fun.</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Kagara wrote:</P> <P><BR>You know why my point is more valid? Because I have experience playing a Ranger past beta. You know why my level is important? Because I have more experience playing Ranger past beta.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know why the above is total crap? Because the only differences between the current version and the end of beta are disarm traps and tracking range. You know why your level doesn't matter? Because I was higher level when I stopped playing my ranger than you are now.</DIV>

[Kaga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griz wrote:<BR> <DIV>You know why the above is total crap? Because the only differences between the current version and the end of beta are disarm traps and tracking range. You know why your level doesn't matter? Because I was higher level when I stopped playing my ranger than you are now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Well then you are an idiot. I have no problems soloing creatures 3-4 levels higher than me, and can on occaision solo a blue ^^. What is so bad about that?

[bli]

<DIV>One star?  I take back anything nice I said about you Griz.  You gave me a 1 star rating because I flamed you?  You never rate someone when they're flaming you, just because you don't like getting flamed.  OH. I'm so [Removed for Content] about that.  GAH.  So lame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's something to give me a 1 star rating for; </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Low-balling someones rating is the last stab of the utterly uninspired. That level of creativity most commonly associated with particularly smart forms of Fungus and mentally **ZOMG** rats.  The kind of thing that a child would do to spite an older child after being thoroughly bested on some matter or another.  You don't disappoint me; to disappoint would require an initially high oppinion, which I was never burdened with, but you do enrage me with your stupid antics.  I can't believe you'd do something so imbecilic as to strike out with a rating, rather than actually defending yourself.  But I guess you can only do what you're capable of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And sewer rats aren't notorious for their "utility" are they?  Or their DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate revisiting closed issues, but when you pull this business, well Grizzy, I won't let it lie.  Because it pisses me right off, thats what it does.  So how 'bout this, next time you feel like being a little whelp, try to sack up and be a man first.  Speak out, instead of stabbing out from behind the safety of presumed anonimity.  Do I mind getting 1 star if my posts are crap?  No.  Do I mind getting 1 star because I hurt your feelings?  Well, I'd actually Expect it, from...you know..a little girl.  Not a man.  Not a mighty bard. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I expect I'll get one star for this post as well.</DIV>

[DragonK]

<DIV>  Just finished reading the thread. I am sure most parties consider it a dead issue at this point but I do have a question. I have started a Scout and I intend to become a Ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I just made my first bow and a bunch of tin arrows on the Isle of Refuge. It took me a lot of effort to do so. The Elm bow is normal quality as are the arrows. It took me a moment to locate the 'Range Attack' icon and move it down to my attack hotbar. I went out and found a nice blue solo mob and took my shot. It did 2 damage and the mob zinged up and started wailing on me. It took me half of the fight to recover, realize I was not attacking for some insane reason and start attacking with my dagger again and kill the dumb thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  What I am really saying is that this preview of ranged Bow combat really and truly sucked. My sneak attack on non-aggro mobs does 20 damage and my ambush while stealthed mobs does similar plus has a nice but short range involved. So the idea that using my newly made bow to initiate a counter would cost me a ton of upfront damage and throw off teh natural flow of tactics so badly has me rattled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I hear the folks saying 'play it or not' and 'wait for the endgame' but I must say I respectfully disagree with those options. I do not play the endgame. I am too slow, a casual player you know? I do not want to play another class, not because I can't but because I will have invested a lot into this character by the time I learn the hard truths.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  So, I just want to hear that ranged Bow combat works well and does great damage and I will be happy. Does it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Dragonkai</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>People say "play it to the endgame" but they aren't talking about BEGINING to experience bow use, they're talking about knowing what rangers are truly capable of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only problem with your disappointment in bows on the IoR, is that you aren't a ranger.  You're a Scout...scouts were never meant to use bows.  Predators are barely even meant to use bows.  So I agree, "play it to endgame" doesn't cut it; but before level 15 at LEAST, you aren't even at the START of the game.  It's hard facts, but you have to break your teeth before you start to have a decent bite, and that encompasses the first 15 or 20 levels of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You'll see in other posts people talking about the damage they do...I'm nothing special, mid 20's and will be for a while, I try to play for an hour or so each night unless my Fiancee really needs attention...but I've done Backshot's for 200 dmg.  To further illustrate this point; my roommate has a 20 monk, his highest special is 70 damage.  My Lowest special often hits for 70 damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the mid 30's we are equipped (as in, have enough bow CA's) to use bows exclusively, though it is still effective to melee often.  Additionally, my STANDARD bow shots (not CA's) land from 20 - 50, whereas my standard melee hits for around 9 - 20.  This is with Arrell's crappy bow of Alacrity, like I said, nothing special.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but you must understand that at level 6, pure casters can tank as well as Fighters and healers can nuke as hard as casters...you can't base Anything about this game on pre-10, and not MUCH on pre-25, which isn't REALLY the endgame.  I consider myself a newbie ranger.  Even as a newbie ranger my bow based damage is nothing to scoff at, and if I run out of Makeshift arrows everyone knows it.  You really can't judge the ranger class based on level 6. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll leave you with this.  I can't tell you everything about the class, I don't know it all, but I can assure you that if a Ranger is what you want to be, you won't be disappointed with the bow, how it works or how much damage it does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I bet Kagara would be willing to share the kind of damage he does with a bow and the sort of combat he's experiencing at level 40, with Vyspel, if you asked him. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>xoxo,</DIV> <DIV>blitz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Midnight_Ph]

<DIV>I am only a level 22 ranger and still have a lot to learn about playing my class as effectively as I can, but am having a blast and performing well in groups so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know we lost our druid side, and can deal with it, but I REALLY miss not having wolf forms. :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really like the idea of slowly increasing the speed of our stealth move as we level and also that of pathfinding( if it doesnt work that way already)  Otherwise, Iam  content so far.  I just need to get more comfortable and proficent playing the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had a quick question about flipping the coin.  How do we do it?  What do we press to have a chance to change the final outcome?  I see then coin icon on the wheel, but not sure what to do next.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am also having trouble soloing the occasional even con solo mobs.  I guess I need more practice with the bow and need to find one with a longer range.  Anyone have a recomendation of one to look for at 22 that will last a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've read many of the posts from my class brothers and they have been very helpful, so thanks! :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kanl]

<DIV>I'm lost...this entire thread is from a Bard that doesn't like Rangers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me get this straight, you play a flute tooting flamer and your mad because the Ranger is a sexier beast then you?  I'm confused still...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again I'm also confused as to why you expect to be able to take mobs two levels above you face to face as a class that is designed around stealth and element of suprise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now again we also apparently have no buffs...lets see as a 21 Ranger I have Hunters Instinct, Blade Furry, Pathfinder...and everyone loves Pathfinder outdoors trust me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No dots?  I have Bleed (Adept 3...50 dps) and whichever flavor poison I craft for myself that day, the red colored ones usually taste the best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only complaint is that my hawk is basically useless, other then that, I consistantly dominate in melee.  I tend to group with people 2-3 levels higher then me because I do as much damage as they do to mobs their level...I only have apprentice 3's on most of my abilities, save like 3.  As a 21 ranger I hit for 150-230 with Backshoot or ShadowBlade...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally own...sorry your Bard can't sing his scales properly, might want to look into Lip-sync</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><3</DIV>

[adi]

<DIV>This was a lot of fun reading.  I read it cause I did not understand the "flaw" about a ranger and it turns out there really isn't any (other than the normal ones associated with all MMO rangers, in that no one really knows what Ranger should be), but one guy makes an opinion and refuses to give up on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just when you think he is done and his face is full of mud, after some really nice posts by Bozack, Reichevel slams Kagara from out of no where.  What was that?  This totally takes Grizz of the pedestal of shame and now this flame war between Reichevel and you would think Kagara ensues, but no, Blitz decides to be Kagara's champion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Interesting to say the least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think SOE did something very smart, they defined what they believe is a ranger.  That is the first part.  Otherwise there is too many figures in lore to see what a ranger is?  Here are some examples:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Robin Hood (which version?) mainly was a knight who (speaking in Dnd terms) had an incredible thac() and decided to make bow his weapon of choice.  Why? because he mainly lived in the woods and it is an idea weapon for that environment if you are outnumbered.  There was no sneaking and stealth about him.</DIV> <DIV>2. Aragorn is a bit different.  Trained by ranger elves he is stealthy, good with a sword but not as good Boramir, good with a bow but not as good as Le-god-los (I love the scene with the wargs).  If anything Aragorn wasn't a ranger he was a knight who had ranger-type training.</DIV> <DIV>3. Martin Longbow.  The magician series.  I don't think martin ever picked up a sword.  He is probably the greatest ranger that I read or heard about.  He did have stealth ability but very little melee ability.</DIV> <DIV>4. The Classic DnD ranger.  He had very little stealth but as to his affinity toward a bow was no greater than a sword.  However, they introduce the hallmark concept of "hated enemy".</DIV> <DIV>5. 3.5 Ranger.  Here you see the authority in defining a class give up.  They basically said, either fight two-handed or fight with a bow.  Can't have both (unless you choose to be a human fighter and then you can have all those feats).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I am forgetting many famous rangers but the point being, other than some general woodsman idea or a person who has a loner personality, bow, sword, stealth, bravado... there was no real recipe.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good thing SOE did is they offered a general discription of a ranger and seems to be following it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate to address it but the button mashing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I suck at twitch games, if I knew I had to use so much dexterity to hit or "mash" so many buttons in a single freaken encounter as well as hitting the "auto-attack" button off so many times, I would have played a more sedate class.  Kagara is right.  You have to have some skill to mush the buttons right.  You ever try that "cheap shot", hit auto attack button, jump over mob, all in the span of 3 seconds and hit shadowblade?  That is not easy!!!  Maybe I am old, but that is not easy at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for groups:  Small groups, two or three total, is a bit rough and a ranger doesn't contribute as much as the others.  In a large group, 5 or 6 they are a heck of a lot of fun.  I ensare mobs that go after spellcrafters, shoot them with backshot (150 to 200 damage), then go back to sneak attack, shrounded strike, (any of the sneak required attack) combo.  Rangers and do a lot cause all their skills are like 2 or 3 seconds it seems.  I mean I am pushing a button all the freaken time!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if it is balanced or not cause I only play the ranger.  But how do you compare apples to oranges?  I just don't understand how one does that.  It is just a matter of preference.  If you don't like apples and prefer oranges why go to the apple forum and tell everyone you hate apples?  I think I am gonna go on the bard forum and start talking about how much the bard sucks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, slacked from work too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nimana]

<DIV>I quitted playing EQ2 on Thursday Dec. 2.: I stripped my character of all his equipment, gave it to a friend for him to sell, left my guild and has only been fooling casually around since then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the aforementioned date, I finally dinged 20 and could call "myself" a ranger. Alas, the long awaited moment turned out to be a major disappointment...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 20, I found my damage output was poor: Even though I was constantly draining my power pool, I was no where near being able taking aggro from tanks. My Berserker friend, being one level lower, was doing far more damage to mobs than I was. Moreover, leveling was, and had for some time been, SLOW. </DIV> <DIV>At level 17 I grouped with three level 16s, one level 15 and a cleric level 13. The cleric dinged twice during our group session, all the others dinged once. I started the session with 8% xp and ended it with 93%. </DIV> <DIV>At level 19 I announced to my group I had 3% left to ding. The level 20 Shaman in the group then said he had 4% left to reaching his next level. Still, he dinged about 10 mobs before me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition to this: due to some soloing, a firm belief in NBG and high costs buying arrows (I normally bought iron hunting arrows, costing about 6s per stack: I felt obliged when grouping to trying to do proper damage), I was literally broke; I could only afford one apprentice 2 upgrade to the new skills I had acquired, my dual wielding weapons were grey, most of my equipment green, 1 item blue, and 2 yellow. Admittedly, I had spent some coin improving tradeskills, I had a few items I could sell, and I know that there are cheaper arrows to buy. But still: I was experiencing harsh economic restrictions whilst most of my friends at the same level was looking forward to getting their first gold piece...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When hearing the nearly unanimous praise of the ranger class, I'm left wondering where I did go wrong...</DIV> <DIV>I chose to play a Wood Elf scout/predator/ranger after having studied the game manual thoroughly. I now know, however, that the manual is totally unreliable, and that Wood elves do in fact not have the starting attributes indicated therein...But surely this can not be the explanation to my failure as a ranger? </DIV> <DIV>I was always using poison when fighting (think it was called "Addictive goo" or something), I regularly cast Blade Flurry and Hunter's Instinct before fights, and I normally started off fighting with a stealthed Shadowblade attack, quickly followed by Bleed, Impale, Shrouded Strike, Pierce and occassionally Cheap Tricks. Then I withdraw a bit, utilising Back Shot, Open Shot and Wounding Arrow, before engaging in melee again with Sneak atttack, and another round of Shrouded Strike, Bleed, Pierce etc. I kept repeating this routine until either the mob was dead or I was out of power. Most of my skills were app3, some only app2. After having played two different characters to level 20, I've only seen one ranger adept drop so far...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'd really like to know is: What classes have you guys chosen for your rangers, what strategies do you use when fighting in groups and how do you go about maximising damage; in other words how do you succeed playing a ranger?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[Nimana]

<DIV> <DIV>For some reason, my posting appeared twice, so I've just edited the text here...</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[Arba]

<DIV>I have noticed that cheap shoot will stun the mob! They dont attack you and they get the graphic over head but they will turn with you more thatn 50% of the time making the back attack follow up useless.  I have made sure I have stopped attacking as soon as I queue up cheap shot and when I see the stun graphic go off I run through the mob and hit the special attack. Most of the time though I see the mob rotate while stunned and continue to face me so I cant use that special attack. Is this a BUG?</DIV>

[Milig]

<DIV>I take it as a failed stun. Or more likely, my bleed attack or poison unfreezes them.</DIV>

[Arduv]

The OP makes some good points, but I really enjoy my Ranger. Faster stealthed movement would be nice, but with Pathfinding on it's not bad at all. It would be cool if we got faster movement outdoors than other scouts.My only concern is that archery seems a little borked to me, and almost all my future CAs are for archery. Maybe those specials will tip the scale, but I don't know. With archery, I can get off a couple of shots...an autoattack or two, a back shot (if I'm in position), a wounding shot (sometimes...have to be stationary and that mob closes awfully fast), and that's about it. Open shot takes forever to cast so I can't often use it unless I have room to do a little kiting (thank goodness for big, open and non-aggroing scarecrow fields!). Snare doesn't last very long...hopefully when I have more bow specials I'll be able to fire them off in rapid succession while moving, but so far all archery is good for is pulling a mob away from his aggroable brethren and shaving off a few hps in the process.I HAVE been able to kite bears across the scarecrow fields pretty successfully, but it takes a lot of arrows to do so, and it's not risk-free. The snare breaks pretty quickly, and though they miss a lot, a yellow giant bear still takes a good chunk of your health with each hit. If a bear had me on the ropes in melee, snaring him and kiting him is almost sure to get me killed. Snaring and running is usually a better plan.Just my experience so far. I still like the class, just like to see archery ramped up with crits or a special set of HOs (don't all our HOs work with melee attacks only? that seems like a fundamental flaw).

[bli]

<DIV>Yes, the Mob continuing to turn after the stun is a bug, if you just continue to strafe around him he will stop eventually and you can hit him with sneak attack or whatever.  actually, he goes back to the way he was originally facing, and remains stunned.</DIV>

[bli]

<DIV>Well, first I'd say you HAVE to get your weapons upgrade.  Life and Death.  the Willow Wood Hunting Blade is good and free, just get a cleric friend and do the quest, it should be a cakewalk at 21, seeing as how I did it at 13.</DIV> <DIV>Also, a Carbonite Kris can be purchased in SQ for 20sp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use those, get your skills upgraded and get some poisons.  I really don't see how you're broke, but I can undersrtand how you'd be disappointed with the class if your gear is grey and your hits are low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I'm grouped with a tank that's my level I steal aggro every fight unless I wait for him to build up before my first shadowblade.  Every single encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Shadowblade - 200-250ish</DIV> <DIV>Backshot 200ish</DIV> <DIV>Bleed, 50/tick x 5</DIV> <DIV>By this time poison usually procs, at 40/tick x 5 or 6 (usually 3 right away, 3 over the next 10 - 15 seconds)</DIV> <DIV>Impale</DIV> <DIV>a guardian writ/defiled storm lord /unearthed settler hits you for 100 points of damage"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kanl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nimanael wrote:<BR> <DIV>I quitted playing EQ2 on Thursday Dec. 2.: I stripped my character of all his equipment, gave it to a friend for him to sell, left my guild and has only been fooling casually around since then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the aforementioned date, I finally dinged 20 and could call "myself" a ranger. Alas, the long awaited moment turned out to be a major disappointment...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 20, I found my damage output was poor: Even though I was constantly draining my power pool, I was no where near being able taking aggro from tanks. My Berserker friend, being one level lower, was doing far more damage to mobs than I was. Moreover, leveling was, and had for some time been, SLOW. </DIV> <DIV>At level 17 I grouped with three level 16s, one level 15 and a cleric level 13. The cleric dinged twice during our group session, all the others dinged once. I started the session with 8% xp and ended it with 93%. </DIV> <DIV>At level 19 I announced to my group I had 3% left to ding. The level 20 Shaman in the group then said he had 4% left to reaching his next level. Still, he dinged about 10 mobs before me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition to this: due to some soloing, a firm belief in NBG and high costs buying arrows (I normally bought iron hunting arrows, costing about 6s per stack: I felt obliged when grouping to trying to do proper damage), I was literally broke; I could only afford one apprentice 2 upgrade to the new skills I had acquired, my dual wielding weapons were grey, most of my equipment green, 1 item blue, and 2 yellow. Admittedly, I had spent some coin improving tradeskills, I had a few items I could sell, and I know that there are cheaper arrows to buy. But still: I was experiencing harsh economic restrictions whilst most of my friends at the same level was looking forward to getting their first gold piece...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When hearing the nearly unanimous praise of the ranger class, I'm left wondering where I did go wrong...</DIV> <DIV>I chose to play a Wood Elf scout/predator/ranger after having studied the game manual thoroughly. I now know, however, that the manual is totally unreliable, and that Wood elves do in fact not have the starting attributes indicated therein...But surely this can not be the explanation to my failure as a ranger? </DIV> <DIV>I was always using poison when fighting (think it was called "Addictive goo" or something), I regularly cast Blade Flurry and Hunter's Instinct before fights, and I normally started off fighting with a stealthed Shadowblade attack, quickly followed by Bleed, Impale, Shrouded Strike, Pierce and occassionally Cheap Tricks. Then I withdraw a bit, utilising Back Shot, Open Shot and Wounding Arrow, before engaging in melee again with Sneak atttack, and another round of Shrouded Strike, Bleed, Pierce etc. I kept repeating this routine until either the mob was dead or I was out of power. Most of my skills were app3, some only app2. After having played two different characters to level 20, I've only seen one ranger adept drop so far...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'd really like to know is: What classes have you guys chosen for your rangers, what strategies do you use when fighting in groups and how do you go about maximising damage; in other words how do you succeed playing a ranger?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Nimanael on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This should help...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What level spells are you using for attacks, are they grey/green/blue/yellow/white/orange ETC.</DIV> <DIV><BR>What potency spell are you using, apprentice 1, apprentice 3, adept 1, adept 3, or mastery</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What quality armor do you have?  All Quested, All purchased?</DIV> <DIV><BR>What level armor do you have? Blue, Green, Grey, Yellow, White, Orange</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What level mobs are you fighting? Grey, Green, Blue, White, Yellow, Orange, Red</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>If you are using anything Grey-Blue = Upgrade it.  I personally used to have every single attack I had on 2 bars, and I would drop about 500 HP and all my mana in about 30 seconds...or less, just an estimate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem with that = I kept using skills that did 20-50 damage too often and if the mob was stronger, I was SOL. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a long time I couldn't take a hit either.  This was due to my armor.  I had a hard time finding quests for new armor, so I had low level gear.  I eventually just bought a full set of armor for my current level, and by the time I needed new armor, I could do my Armor Quests for level 20+.  Another big thing is that I can craft all my secondary equipment, IE Jewelry (for my level).  I have a full set of pristine/Fashioned (whicever I feel like wearing) jewelry.  Usually if I think I'm going to die, I wear the fashioned lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A typical attack for myself is pre-buff hunters instinct (it's an adept for me), blade furry and a poison.  Use Hunt, wait for mob...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then in this order: Shadowblade, Bleed, Impale, Pierce, Shrouded Strike, Ambush, Pierce, Impale.  If by that we haven't made much progress I step back and unleash all my archer skills, Wounding Arrow, Backshot, Open Shot consequtively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That order of attacks, I never have to pause to attack more then 1-2 seconds.  When I hit 22, I'll replace Ambush with the new attack and I'm set.  I always draw aggro, I usually have to be in a group with a really good tank, or a tank a couple levels above me.</DIV>

[Arduv]

Are you cycling your HOs in there? A couple of Ringing Blows make all the difference in the world.

[Kanl]

<DIV>Actually this will sound newb, but I have not found where I can get app3 or higher Lucky Break (or whatever it's called) so I don't even use HO's really.</DIV>

[Ijiamee]

<DIV>Level 25: Escape.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best.Spell.Ever.</DIV>

[Kanl]

<DIV>Got an adept for it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...nice to have for the future</DIV>

[Bonedadd]

<DIV>" <DIV>Thats it. They don't need rogue skills, they need ranger skills. A few changes that would make them a superb class, a class as good as any other but played based on what type of char you would want to play."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might be bucking the system, but I think the criticism about the shared skills of ranger and rogue is really off base.  I really approve of the Scout-predator line of abilities.  Just because a ranger is master of the outdoor stealth does not mean that those skills become greatly reduced once indoors, and visa versa, a rogue who is a master of stealth indoors doesn't become a bumbling idiot outdoors.  That is ridiculous!  Nor do I think that giving a ranger some backstabbing skills is out of the question either.  It makes sense that someone who can be stealthy would take advantage of "back-work", doing more damage and surprising the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ 2 did a great job at setting up the class lines.  These classes do not exist in a vacuum with each class having a totally separate existence from one another, there has to be cross over skills and having a similar base.  As the class develops into higher levels, the class abilities become more defined and unique, but I think a similar base is a good concept.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think people get attached to the concept of what they think a ranger SHOULD be without really truly exploring the character abilities themselves.</DIV></DIV>

[Aulerd]

<DIV>Ok i skipped most the page somebody else may have pointed this out. Im a 24 ranger and since i dinged 20 as ranger i am NEVER out damaged by any fighter class at all (oh apart from monk and bruiser ^^' ). You must either not be very good at playing a ranger or your zerker friend has master I or adept III on all his skills =P. </DIV> <DIV>As for robin hood of course he used stealth he was a theif and he hid among the trees. </DIV>