some questions for you Troub raiders

[Domyr Farseeker]

<DIV> <DIV>I recently started 2-boxing my 70 Troub along with my Fury in raids, and had a few questions for you raiders. I've been pouring through these forums the past couple of weeks, and got some great tips on song setups and such. I appreciate you all sharing your strats on the forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone gets all offended at the hint of buff-bot, I'm here specifically to get some suggestions for taking him past that role. :smileyhappy: The first couple times I brought my Troub along, he didn't get much attention since I was focusing so much on my Fury's healing. The Troub was there mostly for his maintained songs. As I'm getting more comfortable running both and more familiar with which songs to put up for different group setups and encounter types, I'm trying to get the Troub more involved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far, I've tried to spec him out to get the most out of him I can without too much distraction from my primary healing responsibilities. I really can't focus enough once the fighting starts to get a group Jester's rotation flowing, but I have some hotbar macros set up to cast Jester's on myself, Maestro, and spam my debuffs. Not as effective as the cast and cancel routine (I don't have that many hands), but I can squeeze Maestro's in once or twice in each encounter and he's getting a good spurt of damage just by spamming them all over and over while Maestro's is up. In-between, I'm mostly hanging out about 20meters from the melee with my spells and ranged attacks on a single hot key macro (do_file_commands). Every once in a while (not often) I can get him in melee position and I have 2 more hotkeys with melee and backstab CA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've steadily bumped his dps up over the past 7 raids, but it's a far cry from what I'm used to from raiding with my Ranger. In Lyceum last night I parsed out at just over 212 ext-dps zone wide. We're not a fine-tuned force, yet - for comparison, our top dps was an assassin at 894 (not in my group). The next 4 top dps were all casters in my group and anywhere from 5-11% of their damage was from Dissonant and Precise note.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was wondering what kind of dps you guys were parsing when really set up for your raid groups (not maxing personal dps), how much should I expect Dissonant and Precise Note to contribute to overall raid damage (compared to the 5-11% I parsed last night), and what classes do you typically find get the most bang out of those procs? Do you cast Maestro right off the bat to ride the incoming debuffs, or wait for the tanks to get control over the encounter? We seemed to pull aggro a few times when I opened with that Maestro sequence, but it might have just been a overly fiesty caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was also wondering what your thoughts were on ranged attacks. I looted Wurmslayer the other day and it seemed like that would be a perfect fit with the INT stats and shorter range. My Ranger would never have used a short bow, because of CA delays and poison proc advantages to the long delay on the longbows. Wurmslayer just looked to be made for autoattack damage. But WOW does that thing chew up the arrows. I'm not sure it's worth going through 60-100g a night in T7 arrows when I'm only putting out 212 dps. heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, I really want my Troub to be more than just a portable mage battery. I'd like to get a feel for how far away I am from really adding the value in that Troub slot. Any comparisons you guys can share or tips/hints where you think I should focus on maximizing my potential would be MOST appreciated.</DIV></DIV>

[TonyBagz]

<DIV>A good Troub should be able to get about 500-600 DPS zonewide (as always depending on group setups) a great troub should get 750+. A troubs DPS doesn't rely in ranged damage, it's getting in their and getting those abilities off as soon as they light up...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having a good casting order helps too, along with using the secondary buffs, Jester's, POTM.   Remember thoughs something else. Your zonewide is dependent on how fast the mobs die, if you help your group bring them down faster then your DPS goes up. Think of it this way:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You do 1,000 Damage. The fight takes 10 seconds, that's 100 DPS...</DIV> <DIV>You do 1,000 Damage...You cast jester's, POTM etc and the fight takes 5...that's 200 DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It might also help to not two box, unless you really need too. Although I've never two-boxed a raid, for me two boxing a regular group instance or zone is hard enough to maximize both toons.</DIV>

[Troubador Vina]

<P>Most bang for your buck upgrades:</P> <P>Proc Gear:  All troubs reach a dps plataue in normal raids unless you start doing crazy things with the groups.  The way to get DPS up past this plateau is with proc gear.  Get a Bone Clasp Girdle and Earring of the Invoker at least.  Other proc gear will come with raids.</P> <P>Wield Slow Weapons:  Most scouts have 0.5 casting CAs, ideal weapon delay for them is 0.9 seconds (0.5 cast + 0.5 recovery = 1 second) so they will get 1 auto attack round inbetween CAs.  However, bards have slow casting debuffs and nukes.  So, the slower you weapon speed, then less auto attack rounds you miss out on.  Not to mention higher delays will let you proc more on melee strikes as the base delay is what is in the formula and haste song gets a lot more attractive.  Wurmslayer is a nice slow weapon and perfect to achieve this as is the Grinning Dirk of Horror (Lyceum).</P> <P>The rest just comes from spell quality, gear/stats/buffs and casting order.  As your two boxing, you'll never get to focus on your casting order to max DPS.  If your ranging, make sure your INT is as high as it can be so your nukes hit hard.  Oh, and save Meastro for dispatch and unleash your nuke chain.  Casters have enough agro and the MT needs time to generate hate so don't do it on the pull.  On multi mob pulls cast Meastro before all the adds die or it's a waste and give it a text macro so the casters know to use fast cast spells and/or AEs.</P>

[Domyr Farseeker]

<P>Nice :smileyhappy:...Thanks for the suggestions you guys. </P> <P>I agree that 2-boxing is not going to result in the best output from either character. I'm really only doing it at the request of our raid leader. It has become sort of addictive, though. I went solo on a smaller raid recently and the pace of the combat seemed sooo much slower. heheh. One of the reasons I'm trying to focus more on the Troub's performance is that I might need to drop one of my characters once our raid attendance stabilizes and we can field a full raid of regular attendees. I'm assuming that wil make me a full-time Troub, since healers are easier to come by than bards.</P> <P>The last couple raids I've been more selective about which toon I focus on. We've had more healers available, so I've been able to concentrate more on my Troub on several encounters. When I focus on my healer, I usually parse first or second on the heal list, when I focus on my Troub, I've been parsing right about on par with the dirges. I think I need to bump my STR and resists though, if I plan a steady diet of melee. Doesn't sound like I'll be able to make a living as a chain wearing caster. lol.</P> <P>I've been waiting for the Dirk to drop, but haven't seen it yet. The rest of my gear is steadily getting better though. Got a couple of nice Nightcord pieces recently (hat dropped yesterday - woot). Right now, my melee weapons are fast dual wields. I tend to spend a lot of time in auto-attack when I need to focus on heals. My ranger uses slower weapons for the proc rates on poisons, but I don't have any proc gear on my Troub yet (a couple of adornments, is all), so I hadn't given that much thought. I'll have to focus on getting a few proc pieces and try some slower weapons when I'm actually casting CA's and spells. </P> <P>Thanks again for the replies. Very helpful.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Thraxarious]

  Right Now I've been trying to focus on bettering my groups. I usually get stuck with four mages and one healer. My Song line usually consists of Alin's, Dove Song, Brias, Aria, and the last concetration gets used to buff up either elemental, or Arcanes depending on where we are raiding and what we're fighting at the time. I usually fire off Jesters Caps to various mages to boost them up DPSwise or if we're in a bind, at the healers. Works great on pulls before the debuffs are all fired off on a nasty hitting mob. Other than that, my first songs are usually my debuffs, Kian's and Demoralizing processional. I hit Precision of the Maestro during a big x4 encounter with multiple mobs, otherwise our raid tends to shred through most things before I fully wear it out and I have to cancel so we can move again. I try to make sure I get Lore's in on the current mob and hit through each of my debuffs to make things easier for us, caster mobs getting Clara's. This always varies depending on the mob and what kind of range I am trying to stay in... Has anyone any ideas on the effectiveness of the various Debuffs? So far we seem to be doing great, but if I can focus elsewhere, that would be swell.

[Pogopuschel]

If your casters have at least Adept III spells, unless you fight an orange con mob Dove's is a bit of a waste in my opinion, and even then only keep it up until the mob is deb uffed. Raxxyl's might be a better choice here, because of  the STA component. Hitpoints is the best mitigati on against everything after all. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jait]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>If your casters have at least Adept III spells, unless you fight an orange con mob Dove's is a bit of a waste in my opinion </blockquote><p> Exactly right.</p><p>Dove is a major waste outside of orange cons.  Raxxyl is a good choice, but in an "All Caster" group I prefer to leave my self buff up.  500 hp isn't going to make the difference in wether or not a caster dies when pulling aggro.  They still tend to get 1-shotted regardless.  The 217ish INT gained however causes Maestro and Aria to proc much higher, and Mages love a good proc <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Also resists are a total waste of time in "All Caster" groups.  You should be out at Ranged, or Jousting the AE's anyway.  Only put up Resists if ordered, or on the fly.  Speaking of...</p><p>Keep in mind (all troubadours) our buffs DO NOT take long to cast.  As such, Resists are best cast "As needed".  If you're on a PvP server however your lineup should consist of both resists, Dove, Raxxyl, and Balletic.  Depending on group/raid makeup you can play around with other spells.  RoR can be interesting..... but it all depends on who you're facing.  Again...cast as needed.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

Well, there's a few AEs in the game you cannout joust. What I forgot to mention is that Dove's ministration(?) component will make your group's healer's spells cost less mana. I never put it up because of that, but it might be of help in some of the longer fights where mana is an issue (a few mobs in EH come to mind).

[ForgottenFoundling]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Well, there's a few AEs in the game you cannout joust. What I forgot to mention is that Dove's ministration(?) component will make your group's healer's spells cost less mana. I never put it up because of that, but it might be of help in some of the longer fights where mana is an issue (a few mobs in EH come to mind).</blockquote> From the feedback that I've received from healers it's minuscule.

[Ebaej]

Well I've been raiding for a while now with my Troub and with EoF here is basically what my setup is like.  I am always in a group with all casters and 1 healer.  My AA line for Bard is Bladesinger for AOE Immune and Harbinger for Don't kill the messenger.  Harbinger line really helps the crits and casting speed. For songs I run: Raxxyl's Brazen Descant ,Alin's Serene Serenade, Bria's Inspiring Ballad, Aria of Acclamation, Rousing Opus .....lately and depending on the raid zone..I've been using Requiem of Reflection.  Master level is only 12% chance but I am reflecting or absorbing some of the big AOE's in EoF zones now.  Depending on the EoF mob...I stay back and use ranged attack because we cannot take the hits even in full fabled gear.  I am better use alive to my group than dead.  When I am in on melee I avg 400-700 dps.  Also I always use Precision of the Maestro and Jesters Cap so i am busy. Ebaej of Reborn 70 Troubador Befallen

[Bumblethither]

Would recomend DD adornments on your weapons and not the DoT's for raids also. That way you are getting the full damage from them up front. With DoT's mobs may die before the whole thing runs its course. On slow weapons I don't think the +12 to pierce/slash adornment are going to buy you much either, again better to go with the DD procs.

[Cynnigig]

Ebaej@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>For songs I run: Raxxyl's Brazen Descant ,Alin's Serene Serenade, Bria's Inspiring Ballad, Aria of Acclamation, Rousing Opus .....lately and depending on the raid zone..I've been using Requiem of Reflection.</blockquote><p>In an all caster group I see little reason to run Rousing Opus. I put up Dove Song, or if there is a warlock in the group, Daeli's.</p><p>I haven't tried out Requiem for a long time. On what encounters does it work best? I found that it does nothing against AOE's, for it to do that, group members have to take damage before the AOE hits to trigger Requiem. I have only found it slightly useful for Cruor, it may absorb a tick of the DOT for one or two group members. All in all though, too much chance is involved.</p>

[Ebaej]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ebaej@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>For songs I run: Raxxyl's Brazen Descant ,Alin's Serene Serenade, Bria's Inspiring Ballad, Aria of Acclamation, Rousing Opus .....lately and depending on the raid zone..I've been using Requiem of Reflection.</blockquote><p>In an all caster group I see little reason to run Rousing Opus. I put up Dove Song, or if there is a warlock in the group, Daeli's.</p><p>I haven't tried out Requiem for a long time. On what encounters does it work best? I found that it does nothing against AOE's, for it to do that, group members have to take damage before the AOE hits to trigger Requiem. I have only found it slightly useful for Cruor, it may absorb a tick of the DOT for one or two group members. All in all though, too much chance is involved.</p></blockquote> Well I did some test with Dove Song and my group which is the same everyday didn't notice much difference so I keep Opus for myself sometimes.  As far as Requiem goes, it is only 12% chance at Master level and in MMIS on the D'Lizta mobs they attack with this nasty AE which is poison or disease which on some fights I reflect a lot.  We use AOE Immune around 11% which is the big nasty one.  I need to do more testing but I am finally seeing some use with it in EoF.  Hmm I thought the whole idea was to either reflect profession spells or absorb ?  When I reflect..I never take damage. Anyway..more testing needs to be done and it is a slow process because u don't want to wipe your group when testing hehe.

[Cynnigig]

<p>I find it quite noticeable, when Requiem procs: a sound plays, sometimes an animation (I raise my hands and levitate) and I can see who it proced on in my maintained spells. If it does anything then is a bit harder to notice, I haven't found anything in the logs. I think a chat message is generated when damage is absorbed.</p><p>In any case this is a spell which can use some love, especially a higher proc chance with higher levels of the spell. 1% difference is not that much.</p>

[Ebaej]

Yeah I tested it last night in Freethinkers.  I always get the icon for whom it reflected or absorbed for.  So if everyone in my group reflected I get a icon with a duration.  I am currently going through our dps parse and creating a filter for all my troub songs.  I am the only troub in our raids...the rest are all dirges hehe.