Raiding - DW Adorns

[ForgottenFoundling]

<DIV>Hi there,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just curious what other raiders have chosen for their DW weapon adorns (piercing especially).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, I've seen 2 scenarios:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) using +pierce (fabled) adorns to be able to buff our complete LACK of pierce skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) using the treasured (5% proc) +magic dmg (350+)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had thought originally that the +pierce adorns would be worth the investment since we miss a significant portion of our melee auto attack, but I'm not seeing too much evidence that the +10 pierce would really make much of a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are you doing to maximize this portion of your dps?</DIV>

[Will.]

<blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div> </div> <div>1.) using +pierce (fabled) adorns to be able to buff our complete LACK of pierce skill.</div><hr></blockquote>Troubs have slash, pierce, and ranged. Don't think we have crush yet. Maybe in LU54 when we get to dual weild maracas. -Will <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<DIV>I realize that throughout the course of leveling a toon that one will achieve a piercing skill of 350 at current level cap.  This equates to about a 70% or less to hit percentage over the course of a level appropriate raid zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why I asked my question.</DIV>

[Rampagious]

I have like 396 pierce mod solo, it makes a HUGE difference - I would suggest the + skill adornments

[Jordinn]

<P>I'd recommend the +pierce as well.  I recently came back to playing my troub from playing an inquisitor and in a recent raid we parsed to hit% just to see how folks were doing.  With comparable gear for the most part, I parsed about 7-8% less hit rate than the other troub.  He has +pierce adorns, I have no adorns yet on my DW.</P> <P>Probably not a large enough sample of fights to be sure that number is accurate as a benchmark, but it lead me to believe that +pierce is the way to go.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>EDIT: Typos</P><p>Message Edited by Jordinn on <span class=date_text>01-20-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[TonyBagz]

<DIV>The + pierce definitely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recently added the +12 piercings to both my duelwields and my bow (+36 total) and have seen my Zonewide DPS go up about 125-175 depending on the zone. I'm always in the same setup (Wiz,Fury, Conj, Necro, Some scout usually swashy).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Going deeper into my parses, the auto-attack is connecting about 10-15% more often since I added them. I'll take take over a garbage proc that goes off once or twice a minute.</DIV>

[aelder~]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TonyBagz wrote:<BR> <DIV>The + pierce definitely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recently added the +12 piercings to both my duelwields and my bow (+36 total) and have seen my Zonewide DPS go up about 125-175 depending on the zone. I'm always in the same setup (Wiz,Fury, Conj, Necro, Some scout usually swashy).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Going deeper into my parses, the auto-attack is connecting about 10-15% more often since I added them. I'll take take over a garbage proc that goes off once or twice a minute.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ummm, the +12 <STRONG>treasured</STRONG> adornments are +12 <STRONG>piercing damage</STRONG> (or slash etc).  The <STRONG>fabled</STRONG> adornments are +5 <STRONG>piercing skill</STRONG> (or slash if you prefer) modifier.  The +12 damage adornments you have added should have zero effect on your to hit %.  Per hit, you should be doing more damage.  It seems unlikely that your change in DPS of > 120 is attributable to these adornments.  If you <STRONG>hit</STRONG> the target once per second, your increased DPS should be higher.  Higher by... 12.  This assumes the +12 damage is not strength modified (if it is, it would presumably be higher, but not by more than a factor of 10x).  Further, I imagine the damage mods are weapon specific, so you may not get +36 per hit.  You can probably see the exact effects using a bow attack as your arrows are likely to be slash damage while you have added a +12 pierce adornment to you bow; I suspect, therefore, that you may be able to see this distinction in your combat spam to see exactly how much damage is added by you bow's adornment.</P> <P>I don't doubt that the +pierce skill fabled adornments help a great deal more than the damage adornments or proc adornments... that's why they are fabled and probably cost you 10x the treasured one(s).  As a side note, I can't see using the legendary +12 heat / magic etc weapon adornment.  Perhaps they are an improvement b/c mobs don't mitigate this damage as easily as physical; however, it would seem likely they have a save opportunity vs. this type of damage too.  I don't have any so I can't check them.</P> <P>I don't parse myself and nor do I follow combat mechanics all that closely but it seems to me (some squid who knows pls comment on the math and logic) that the treasured proc and damage adornments are roughly the same... 1.8 procs per min x 396 damage / 60 seconds = +11.88 damage per second.  If you can, through fast weapons and haste, score a hit each second on a mob, that sounds about right.  I know procs are scaled to delay but not sure on the damage modifiers.</P> <P>One final note on attack skills and DPS.  I believe our HOs changed and its worth noting.  I think Swindler's Gift used to be either increased accuracy or an extremely brief stun, and Bravo's Dance was 20% self haste buff.  Check your buff icons next time, but I think Swindler's is now specifically +23 pierce, slash, crush [go figure], ranged buff and Bravo's is +DPS (either in addition to or in place of the 20% haste -- i have to check again).</P> <P>Happy hunting,</P>

[TonyBagz]

<P>Lol, hmm I guess I misunderstood the adornments. But my DPS is higher...I must just be hitting buttons faster...But it does seem my auto-attack is hitting more often as well...</P> <P>I guess I'll need a few more zonewides to look at and post back here with what I find.</P>

[aelder~]

<DIV>One other thing to keep in kind about the skill adornments.  A modifier of +5 skill doesn't seem all that impressive relative to base of 350/350.  However, +5 = 1 level.  So a pair of them would in effect make you 2 levels higher wilth respect to melee ability.  Turning an orange con into a yellow con or white to blue in effect I think puts this in proper perspective.  With respect to measuring the impact I'd have to defer to Ramagious (+46 pierce ability -- wow -- good god man) or the like, but logically it seems quite valuable.</DIV><p>Message Edited by aelder~ on <span class=date_text>01-29-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:54 PM</span>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>The +12 pierce/slash/etc adorns are weapon specific and are scaled to delay (but not increased if delay > 3.0 secs).  So, your +12 dmg on a 1.0 delay weap is only 4 dmg per swing.  The treasured adorn for 300+ mgc dmg proccing at 1.0 time per minute (3.0 second delay = 5% proc) actually will prove to be more dmg (look at the high dps assassins adorns on their weaps).  Also, Troubs often have great int which will increases the proc dmg amount.</P> <P>Mob type is very important for determining how effective these mods are on dps.  I've found, proc gear plus a moderate amount of +skill adorns is the way to maximize dps for my playing style.  I boosted my skill to Ramp levels (around 400) and didn't see as much dps as I did with my proccing items.</P> <P>I'm still experimenting with this and will chime in some more when I get some more data.</P> <P> </P>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>I actually have 2 sets of different weapons with different adorns.</DIV> <DIV>When I'm fighting white or below mobs, i use the set with the damage procs.</DIV> <DIV>When fighting yellow or above mobs i use the onces with +pierce.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I found having higher skill to be almost useless against white and below, but they help tremendously against yellow or higher.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>aelder~ wrote:<DIV>One other thing to keep in kind about the skill adornments.  A modifier of +5 skill doesn't seem all that impressive relative to base of 350/350.  However, +5 = 1 level.  So a pair of them would in effect make you 2 levels higher wilth respect to melee ability.  Turning an orange con into a yellow con or white to blue in effect I think puts this in proper perspective.  With respect to measuring the impact I'd have to defer to Ramagious (+46 pierce ability -- wow -- good god man) or the like, but logically it seems quite valuable.</DIV><p>Message Edited by aelder~ on <span class=date_text>01-29-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:54 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Wow, welcome to DoF and beyond skill system. +5 does NOT mean +1 level, this is pre-DoF combat system. If you get +105(455) you have an extra 20% chance to hit the mob, and it scales expoential up to that 20% based on your piercing skill. Sure you hit more, but +10 does not make you hit like you were Level 72. This is not the original combat system anymore. Please, figure that out.

[aelder~]

<DIV>Calaglin:  fair enough.  I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't on a diminishing returns curve now (still, when level caps are expanded a 72 troub will have 360 pierce skill).  Given diminishing returns, however, it remains that the first +5 (or +10) will go farther than incremental improvements.  But I was not aware that the curve topped out at +20% to hit as you indicated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A related question... DW proc adornments say something along the lines of "on a successful melee attack, this effect triggers an average of 1 time per minute; if a melee attack is used, only the primary weapon can trigger this effect" (rough paraphrasing since I am not in game at the moment).  Can someone please translate this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(a) do weapon procs only trigger off of auto-attack (or combat arts as well -- i can't see spells being "melee attack" obviously)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(b) does the primary weapon component of the description mean each swing of the main hand has an equal chance to proc the adornment from either or both of adorned primary/secondary weapons?  If so you could in theory proc twice?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If (b) is the case, that suggests that it's irrelevant which hand has the +5 pierce and which has a proc, if you go with one of each.  Sound right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

[Pogopuschel]

To my knowledge, both (a) and (b) are correct. In fact, if (b) wasn't correct, it would not make sense to have any proc'ing adorns or weapons itself in the off-hand, and also the "if using dual wield, only main hand will trigger"-description wouldn't make much sense. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aelder~ wrote:<BR> <DIV>Calaglin:  fair enough.  I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't on a diminishing returns curve now (still, when level caps are expanded a 72 troub will have 360 pierce skill).  Given diminishing returns, however, it remains that the first +5 (or +10) will go farther than incremental improvements.  But I was not aware that the curve topped out at +20% to hit as you indicated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A related question... DW proc adornments say something along the lines of "on a successful melee attack, this effect triggers an average of 1 time per minute; if a melee attack is used, only the primary weapon can trigger this effect" (rough paraphrasing since I am not in game at the moment).  Can someone please translate this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(a) do weapon procs only trigger off of auto-attack (or combat arts as well -- i can't see spells being "melee attack" obviously)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(b) does the primary weapon component of the description mean each swing of the main hand has an equal chance to proc the adornment from either or both of adorned primary/secondary weapons?  If so you could in theory proc twice?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If (b) is the case, that suggests that it's irrelevant which hand has the +5 pierce and which has a proc, if you go with one of each.  Sound right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>a.) weaps have a chance to proc off of CA's and auto attack</P> <P>b.) proc spells are only off of main hand, weapon procs will proc based on which hand is swinging and only that hand, +skill adorns are overall rather than weapon specific (think having +pierce on a helm - you don't attack with your helm).<BR></P>