The troubadour is the best class in the game...

[Rutabegah]

<DIV>for running around on autofollow behind my 70 dps fury.<BR><BR>tracking<BR>emergency evac<BR>run speed<BR>power regen</DIV> <DIV>health regen</DIV> <DIV>extra damage on all hostile spells<BR>str/sta<BR>jester's cap<BR>AA - Don't Kill the Messenger<BR>AA - even more run speed<BR>AA - faster casting times<BR>AA - extra spell casting range<BR><BR>Plus I can set him on autoattack for extra damage on single names</DIV>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>Troubadors and Dirges are NOT, repeat NOT! buff bots. Well played, a troubador can do personal DPS around 600-800 easily and also increase group DPS by a fair amount. We mez (Often saving groups from wipes) we charm (again, saved several groups from wipes with this, as it isnt broken with damage) and hell, i can even tank and hold agro fairly well. We are a jack of all trades and so we aren't fabulous at any one particular role... but we can do things that no other class can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Editted to not be quite so offensive.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mildavyn on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[Cuz]

<div></div>We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.<BR><BR>Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Tell me something i can't do, and i'll tell you how i CAN do it.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Tell me something i can't do, and i'll tell you how i CAN do it. </P> <P>You can't make me think troubadours are as much fun to play as Mystics, Warlocks, Necros, or Swashbucklers (the other classes I play.)</P>

[RainieSummer]

I love being a <font color="#ff3300">buff bot!</font> w/e, less things i have to worry about.Being the best class ever? You do have a really cute imagination heh...I wouldn't worry to muches about parse's, put on AF grab a nice drink, popcorn and a book and you'll have a much better time (if they notice, shame on you)In PvP, eh can be fun stalking bots; at least i enjoy it. For fighting realy players w/ Avg or better mental resist you'll be lucky to land 1/10 songs sorta makes you feel like a grey fighting a red con w/ how frail your class is. Though at least we do get to land that one song, of course I suppose it could be worse.    *cookie monster*Do i count as a bardie?<div></div>

[Zygwen]

The OP did qualify his statement to only applying to a Fury auto-following buff bot in which case he is probably correct. However, if I had that set up I might consider doing it the other way around and have the Fury on auto-follow. As for Rogues being the true jack of all trades that is debatable. It depends on what trades you are considering since Rogues have no combat related group buffs while bards are all about group buffs and debuffs. Rogues can play the roll of Tank and DPS but they make very bad healers. <div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Best class in the game, one of the least played?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess everyone see's either majority of player has not the intellect to choose </DIV> <DIV>the right class, or the statement with the best class is simply not true in empirical view. </DIV>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Best class in the game, one of the least played?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess everyone see's either majority of player has not the intellect to choose </DIV> <DIV>the right class, or the statement with the best class is simply not true in empirical view. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>apparently you didnt read the rediculous content of the op </P> <P> </P> <P>however  either way troubs are a highly versitle and fun class  </P> <P>as another poster said theres so much we can do that if u can truely master the class theres no comparison </P> <P> </P> <P>and to the pvp comment i play on a pvp server and im universaly feared on my troub SOLO and in group </P> <P>i readly drop reds and oj's and rarely get resisted so i dont know what in the world your issue is </P> <P>try maybie LEVELING your casting skills ? and properly gearing yourself like the CASTER you are and you wouldnt have that problem </P>

[Cuz]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mildavyn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jenoy wrote: <div></div>We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class="date_text">01-05-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Tell me something i can't do, and i'll tell you how i CAN do it.<hr></blockquote>Scout DPS, tanking like a swash or brig, Hate gain like a swash or brig, crowd control 4 mobs, heal, use poisons.</div><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:18 AM</span>

[Rutabegah]

<P>I would not run by fury behind my troub..<BR><BR>A troub cannot solo yellow, white, blue, and many green con heroic ^^^ mobs<BR>A troub cannot tank 16 green con trash mobs for farming purposes<BR><BR>My fury can...<BR><BR>The troubadour is a buff-but plain and simple.  He makes what I can do already, even faster and more efficient.  No other class has that kind of utility.<BR><BR></P>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rutabegah wrote:<BR> <P>I would not run by fury behind my troub..<BR><BR>A troub cannot solo yellow, white, blue, and many green con heroic ^^^ mobs<BR>A troub cannot tank 16 green con trash mobs for farming purposes<BR><BR>My fury can...<BR><BR>The troubadour is a buff-but plain and simple.  He makes what I can do already, even faster and more efficient.  No other class has that kind of utility.<BR><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I did Skylord and Enmity (sp?) solo with my troub the other night.  Both yellow ^^^.  About a 45 minute fight for each, but I got about 95p out of it (Archlich and Owl's Reparation  dropped)

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR>Tell me something i can't do, and i'll tell you how i CAN do it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Scout DPS, tanking like a swash or brig, Hate gain like a swash or brig, crowd control 4 mobs, heal, use poisons.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>01-07-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Scout DPS: Soloing, I parse around 300-400 DPS. In a group, i add 100-200 DPS to any scouts and 200-300 to any mages. In a raid group, i can add up to 1500 DPS to the group, and bring 400-500 of my own. 2000 DPS = pretty damned good!</P> <P>Tanking like a swash or brig... O.K, i'll admit flat out that without the defensive stance I don't have as much Mit as a rogue, but i can hold agro quite nicely thank you. Play Alin's Serene Serenade, and cancel it on yourself. 40% less agro generation from your group, and normal agro for you. If you cant hold single-target or single encounter agro, you need help.</P> <P>Can only crowd control 3 mobs at a time, 4 if you count tanking one as crowd control. </P> <P>Healing is done via Quirons. 134/tick isnt great, but combine it with mez and you're all set.</P> <P>Poisons is a sore point, but i dont need poisons to add nice DPS to a group.</P> <P>Everyone is always set on seeing the BAD points about being a troubador, try looking at the GOOD points. (read the boards, myself and a few others have posted the good points, everyone else seems to whine too much to care.)<BR></P>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rutabegah wrote:<BR> <P>I would not run by fury behind my troub..<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>A</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> troub cannot solo yellow, white, blue, and many green con heroic ^^^ mobs</FONT><BR><FONT color=#6633ff>A troub cannot tank 16 green con trash mobs for farming purposes</FONT><BR><BR>My fury can...<BR><BR>The troubadour is a buff-but plain and simple.  He makes what I can do already, even faster and more efficient.  No other class has that kind of utility.<BR><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>Care to make a wager on that? I garuantee i can solo a yellow ^^^. It will take me 40-50 minutes, but i know i can do it.</FONT><BR>I have never tanked that many, and the troubador's complete lack (seriously, we have none) or blue AEs would certainly make holding agro a problem... however, if its only a few encounters i think i could manage... I have enough Damage sheilds on me that i do a nice chunk of damage just from being hit... surviving would be the problem.

[Mentla]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mildavyn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jenoy wrote: <div></div>We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class="date_text">01-05-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Tell me something i can't do, and i'll tell you how i CAN do it.<hr></blockquote>Don't argue with him!  Agree that we suck and they may fix us!</div>

[Hajji]

<P>Some good points there Mild, and I agree, with the right style and song config, troubs are still a very effective class. I parse 500-700 consistently, even just ranged, casting spells.  But it takes an active style to do that, we can't just sit back and auto-attack for tons of damage the way the assassin/brigand/swashbuckler can.  I don't plan on ever abandoning my troub, but it is easy to see how others have come to the decision to abandon theirs or turn it into a buffbot.  However, the critical thing to remember here is that the bard class is in a huge decline right now.  The numbers don't lie, dirges have become as rare as a pink diamond, and troubs....almost every one I see (of the few that I do see running around) has been created within the last year.  There's something wrong (as we've all been saying for months) when the class goes through such a significant decline in the experienced players.</P> <P>P.S. damage is by no means the most critical thing that needs fixing, simply the only facet of the argument I chose to address.</P><p>Message Edited by Hajji on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Everyone is always set on seeing the BAD points about <BR>> being a troubador, try looking at the GOOD points. (</P> <P>There are good points to all classes. We are not trying to tell anyone the troubadour isn't fun to play. All classes that I have played in EQ2 are fun. The troubadour is the least-played class in all EQ2, though, and we are trying to identify why.</P> <P>Obviously, there is disagreement on that. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Valshyra]

<DIV> <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Everyone is always set on seeing the BAD points about<BR>>being a troubador, try looking at the GOOD points. (</P> <P>There are good points to all classes. We are not trying to tell anyone the troubadour isn't fun to play. All classes that I have played in EQ2 are fun. <STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>The troubadour is the least-played class in all EQ2, though, and we are trying to identify why.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Obviously, there is disagreement on that. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <DIV>Jeger Wulf 5X Troubadour, Najena</DIV></DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________</P> <P> </P> <P>I would wager to say it's because people keep insisting we are buff-bots /shrug!!! I  love my troub, yes we have issues that need to be fixed, we don't have a stance like other scouts, but like a few have said i can take out yellow cons. My  question to the fury would be this--- sicne your draggin your Troubie around, is he outfitted to be the one tanking? i'm assuming no on that....Gear will make all the difference as will spells being upgraded.. just this Troubies 2 cents...</P><p>Message Edited by Valshyra on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valshyra wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Everyone is always set on seeing the BAD points about<BR>>being a troubador, try looking at the GOOD points. (</P> <P>There are good points to all classes. We are not trying to tell anyone the troubadour isn't fun to play. All classes that I have played in EQ2 are fun. <STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>The troubadour is the least-played class in all EQ2, though, and we are trying to identify why.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Obviously, there is disagreement on that. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <DIV>Jeger Wulf 5X Troubadour, Najena</DIV></DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________</P> <P> </P> <P>I would wager to say it's because people keep insisting we are buff-bots /shrug!!! I  love my troub, yes we have issues that need to be fixed, we don't have a stance like other scouts, but like a few have said i can take out yellow cons. My  question to the fury would be this--- sicne your draggin your Troubie around, is he outfitted to be the one tanking? i'm assuming no on that....Gear will make all the difference as will spells being upgraded.. just this Troubies 2 cents...</P> <P>Message Edited by Valshyra on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:07 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't think it's a very complicated answer. The class is generally less fun then the others to play. Please note that I said "generallly".

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> I would wager to say it's because people keep insisting we are buff-bots /shrug!!!</P> <P>This happens in MMOs everytime a class is low-played. Some people say it's because the class has problems - others say it's because people are pointing out the class's problems.</P> <P>I believe that most people in EQ2 don't read these boards. The reason people don't play troubs is because the class has problems - not because we are talking about the problems.</P> <P>Like Jenoy, I think the problem is complex and the troubs are generally less fun to play than other classes.</P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Valshyra]

<DIV>i love that ... 07 the year of the Troub!!! :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> and i agree with both of you, it is complex, sorry if it seemed like i was saying it was just because of the buff-bot label..</DIV>

[Blakeavon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class="date_text">01-05-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Um Swashy and Brigs noooooooTroubiepart caster (like wizzie etc)part scout dps (swashy, brig)mezz'er (like illusionist, coer)charmer (like illusionist)trackerbuff botum lets look at a swashynope they dont castyep they backstabno mezz, charmtrack yesenhance group fighting abilities... nope they only have a FEW group buffsBards have always been a jack of all trades, right back to DnD which the class is based. it is the reason they exist.</div>

[vladsamier]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blakeavon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.<BR><BR>Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Um Swashy and Brigs nooooooo<BR><BR>Troubie<BR>part caster (like wizzie etc) <BR>part scout dps (swashy, brig) <BR>mezz'er (like illusionist, coer)<BR>charmer (like illusionist) <FONT color=#ff0000><----- You're wrong. Illusionists have pets, Coercers have charm....</FONT><BR>tracker<FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><BR>buff bot<BR><BR>um lets look at a swashy<BR><BR>nope they dont cast <BR>yep they backstab <BR>no mezz, charm <FONT color=#ff0000>This is actually false. Swashbucklers do get a single target mez, although weaker then any other classes, it still counts.</FONT><BR>track yes<BR>enhance group fighting abilities... nope they only have a FEW group buffs <BR><BR>Bards have always been a jack of all trades, right back to DnD which the class is based. it is the reason they exist.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vladsamier wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blakeavon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> We are not jack of all trades. Swashbuckler or brigand yes, troubs no.<BR><BR>Edit: If something posted on the internet, on a MMO board no less, makes you want to resort to violence or makes you sick, you need help.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Um Swashy and Brigs nooooooo<BR><BR>Troubie<BR>part caster (like wizzie etc) <BR>part scout dps (swashy, brig) <BR>mezz'er (like illusionist, coer)<BR>charmer (like illusionist) <FONT color=#ff0000><----- You're wrong. Illusionists have pets, Coercers have charm....</FONT><BR>tracker<FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><BR>buff bot<BR><BR>um lets look at a swashy<BR><BR>nope they dont cast <BR>yep they backstab <BR>no mezz, charm <FONT color=#ff0000>This is actually false. Swashbucklers do get a single target mez, although weaker then any other classes, it still counts.</FONT><BR>track yes<BR>enhance group fighting abilities... nope they only have a FEW group buffs <BR><BR>Bards have always been a jack of all trades, right back to DnD which the class is based. it is the reason they exist.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>oh no he's arguing semantics w/e shall we do </P> <P> </P> <P>oh yeah ignore him  because the point still stands </P>

[Blakeavon]

oops gee i made two mistakes.. lol ... funny i have a coer so i should have known better :pmy point still stands swashys and brigs are far from a jack of all trades they are designed to be DPS machines which they do brilliantly. as i have a lvl 40 swashy myself.  but they arent a utlility class like troubs, who have parts from most classes so when one class gets nerfed er fixed we lost something. it happenned with proc damage changes, charm and emzz changes, cheapshot changes (though one of the good things the devs ever did<div></div>

[Cuz]

Ok I'll be generous and say there's 3.5 "trades" in EQ2.1- Tanking2- Healing3- DPS3.5- Crowd controlUntil level 50 Swashies are better at tanking, DPS, and Crowd Control. Past 50 they're better at Tanking and DPS. A bunch of different buffs does not make us jack of all trades, makes you versatile. That's how I see it anyways.<div></div>

[Myrddhinn]

<P>Well, imho one of the main reasons why our class is the least played now is triple :</P> <P>- the troubadours have experienced one of the most drastic change in the whole EQ2 history (if we except the loss of the whole crafting interdependancy system). They where intended, announced and effectively played to be buffers (and Dirges de-buffers) and suddenly became Casters' friends (and Dirges Meleers' friends). This alone has decreased the number of troubadours played as we stated and discussed this a long time ago.</P> <P>- consequently, lots of meleers groups now thinks that Troubadours are useless to them. But lots of casters groups do not see yet what Troubadours can accomplish. Using DPS as the main indicator of usefulness, we get one of the reasons too : What a troubadour brings into his group's basket is often unseen... despite the parsing and maths, most of the other players even when they themselves play troubadours, simply do not "feel" what we do in a group.</P> <P>So what is "seeable" : our buffs, manasongs and the like, are obvious. (Thought Doves or Aggro Control are often hard to defend)</P> <P>And sometimes our emergency mezz. But in this case, everyone tends to think that if we had to do this, this is because the group failed in some way... Roamers, Social, Heal Failure... So with the cognitive bias, nobody wants to recognize we save the situation because nobody likes to be remembered his own failures.</P> <P>- at last, i can figure out a third reason. Troubadours are not heroes. They make heroes. Singind lieds, folksongs, sagas or simply storytelling, they have a very special function in the litteracy but obviously not to be the hero of the story. Yet the current paradigm of all the MMO is to give each and every customer the feeling he is the hero.</P> <P>Saying we are buff-bot is (in my opinion) a way to point this gap between what we are waiting for our game investment (to be a hero) and the way this class is traditionnaly perceived by the authors, built by the designers and translated into numbers by developpers.</P> <P> </P> <P>Less numbers. More world.</P><p>Message Edited by Myrddhinn on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>