The honest truth about Troubadors..

[Llars]

I have a little level 17 Troubador as an alt.  I am enjoying him a lot so far.  I still love my Brig who is my main at 39, but I do enjoy that Troub when I want a little break.  It took me a while to figure out a strategy that works because he is very different from my Brig but at this point he can take out white group encounters and the occasional yellow group.  Single mobs one level above him are pretty consistant so I am happy with his ability...  My question is this: Is there going to come a point where his ability to solo takes a drastic turn for the worse?  I hear a lot of people say "Don't do it!" in a tongue-in-cheek way but there is often a little bit of truth to such comments.  There are also a number of people who say they love their Troub but are putting him/her on the shelf until a number of issues are dealt with... yadda yadda.How bad is it really?  And please, be candid.  If a friend of yours was in my position, would you suggest that he save himself the grief, or would you say that, if he's enjoying the class now then there is a good chance he will continue to enjoy it as it levels?Thanks<div></div>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>I would recommend you stick with it. Yes we have alot of issues, but what class doesn't? You can find a list of our gripes linked in the stickys. i suggest you read it and then decide yourself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as soloing goes, we can do it, but it is VERY slow. Our soloing technique consists of mezzing the mob then waiting 5 minutes to regen, then doing damage, then mezzing again and waiting. Or if you have the room, you can kite. Using these two methods you can kill most thingsup to white heroics... if you have ALOT of patience.</DIV>

[Cuz]

Personally I would wait til they "revise" the bards before going too far with one. I wish I would have leveled up my swash instead of my troub if that helps.<div></div>

[Jeger_Wulf]

I recommend staying with another class. At higher levels, the troub just doesn't bring enough to the table. Good luck whatever you decide.

[Rampagious]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> I recommend staying with another class. At higher levels, the troub just doesn't bring enough to the table. Good luck whatever you decide.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats a pretty ignorant statement.

[Ebilmuff]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>I've never had the patience to level a troub before, or a dirge for that matter.  I just recently started one up and she's 24 so far and I still love her.  Yes, she's a lot more fragile than oh... pretty much ALL my other characters (monk/swash/brig/inqu/fury/defiler/assassin/ranger/illusionist/bruiser), but... she's a blast in a group and if I'm careful I CAN solo, it's just not as brainless as it was with the other classes *grins* I have to actually be semi-smart about it.  Honestly, I'd suggest possibly trying to find groups too.  I have a regular group starting up with Angeni and it's making a huge difference.  As for what troubs bring to the table, one of the friends I'm starting the alt group with is a heavy raider and she told me she'd kill for someone to play a troub for her.  So, apparently they bring enough to the table <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></DIV>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>>  As for what troubs bring to the table, one of the friends <BR>> </FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>I'm starting the alt group with is a heavy raider and she <BR>> told me she'd kill for someone to play a troub for her</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=4>Everyone recognizes that troubadours are wanted in raiding groups. If that's enough for you, then troubs are probably good for you. However, if you want to actually play your toon as opposed to be a buff bot, troubs don't bring enough to the table. It's just my opinion, but it must be a lot of others, too, because troubs are the least-played class in EQ2.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 PM</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>If you decide to play a troub:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=11711" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=11711</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>has a lot of good information. Also check out:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=10883" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=10883</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>Pessimistic much? I beleive the saying goes something like this: IFL2P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors are a great class and i don't care how many people whine about it.</DIV>

[Thrashercat]

I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus. <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just because he's pessimistic doesn't mean he's wrong.  How long have you been playing your troub, just out of curiousity?  </P> <P>If you haven't lived through all of the nerfs since LU13 (really, the nicest thing they did for troubs in any update since then was to NOT touch us in any way), or even most of them, it's hard to be as pessimistic about your troub.  </P> <P>To the OP... a lot of what we are complaining about, you will barely notice, because you won't know what it was like before.  Also, it takes a while to become totally disillusioned with any class, even a bard.  I love my troub, but I only raid with her.  I used to bring a great deal more to groups and to myself solo than I do now.  The mezz and charm changes don't effect my raiding since I couldn't use those abilities on raids anyway.</P> <P>But, I have to be honest with you... you can kill a hell of a lot more at your level than you can at the high levels... there is a major difference in your strengths and abilities.... but most people don't become bards to solo as they are a group oriented class anyway.</P> <P>I say keep it up with the class until you stop liking it... if you continue to enjoy your troub all the better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Take away our buffs that take a concentration slot for a second, what are you left with? Stealth, run speed buff, disarm, bad DPS, Jester and PoM. Most would probably bring more to the party than we would. Now add your conc slot buffs and tell me how much gameplay that was. Once you put your buffs up what "defines" a troub is done. </P> <P>Honnestly it's like having a healer where he would have 3 diffferent passive-conc-slot-consuming heals. If the group is good, well use 2 of your 3 passive heals, and use the other for a bit more DPS. While you're "healing" go stand behind the mob and do pathetically low damage.</P> <P>In short I find there's no skill or art to the troub. (PvE)</P><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Take away our buffs that take a concentration slot for a second, what are you left with? Stealth, run speed buff, disarm, bad DPS, Jester and PoM. Most would probably bring more to the party than we would. Now add your conc slot buffs and tell me how much gameplay that was. Once you put your buffs up what "defines" a troub is done. <FONT color=#ff0000><snip></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You seem to have forgotten the debuffs we have that let our groups take on things that they wouldnt normally be able to survive.</P> <P>Bad DPS? According to a parse in Courts (t6 raid zone) i add 300ish DPS to everyone in my group. That combined with my personal DPS of 500ish means im adding more DPS than ANY other class in the raid. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!<BR></P>

[Krescendo]

<P>There was some game,  (maybe early EQ1..honestly don't remember) where, you rolled your guy up and were stuck with the stats. Many folks would re-roll, re-roll, re-roll. The pure at heart would take what they got and do the best with it. Thats kinda bards in EQ2, to my way of thinking.</P> <P>If you try and play a troub like a Swashy (or any other scout class) or God forbid, a berserker or guardian. You are gonna be disappointed. If you play em like a bard, well, you'll get the most bang for the buck. I am not saying they are perfect, and I think they need a bit of attention, which has come (in small doses) recently and apprears to be possible on the horizon...better late than never.</P> <P>I have a 70 blue server dirge and my current main, a 40 troub is on a red server (pvp). Most people who roll a bard think they are gettin a high dps scout class with extra utility. When they can't rush an orange solo or a blue heroic and blow it away, they get dissapointed.  What my troub ain't is a solo pvp (or PvE) god. Pick your fights and the circumstances and you can be successful solo (or at least people better than me say they are). </P> <P>PvP  groupwise, while I don't make groups totally bullet-proof, my groups never lose to other other opposing even-con groups. They appreciate the in-combat runspeed buff (everyone has  a pony or a sow for out of combat rs) and I am a great chaser for runners, because of cast-on-the-fly. Like any class, you got to know your weaknesses and play your strengths. I have been using a group setup (gearwise) for my troub more like a mobile mage than a scout, with some success.</P> <P>What isn't necessarily right, but is sure something to remember. Most people can come close to fully Master spelling their troubs because the masters aren't overpriced. In fact often rares for Adept III's sell for more than troub masters. Unfortunately, the new tradeskills have put a dent in some of that, because the masters are being transmuted. </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Krescendo on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:47 AM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Take away our buffs that take a concentration slot for a second, what are you left with? Stealth, run speed buff, disarm, bad DPS, Jester and PoM. Most would probably bring more to the party than we would. Now add your conc slot buffs and tell me how much gameplay that was. Once you put your buffs up what "defines" a troub is done. <FONT color=#ff0000><snip></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You seem to have forgotten the debuffs we have that let our groups take on things that they wouldnt normally be able to survive.</P> <P>Bad DPS? According to a parse in Courts (t6 raid zone) i add 300ish DPS to everyone in my group. That combined with my personal DPS of 500ish means im adding more DPS than ANY other class in the raid. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're right I did forget the debuffs; however they do not save my groups. If I cast them or not will not swing the tide of a battle, or rather it hasn't yet.</P> <P>I'm assuming that your raid group is pretty tailor made for you. I strongly doubt that in a PUG or even a guild group that I'm adding 300 to everyone in it.</P> <P>And for the reccord I could easily smoke a pipe while playing a troub.</P><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Pessimistic much?</P> <P>No - I am a fairly optimistic guy. I have four alts and my main. I enjoy all four alts and would recommend any of them. (Mystic, Necro, Warlock, and Swashbuckler.) While I have fun playing my troubadour, it's nowhere near as much fun as any of my alts. I am sure you can have fun playing the troubadour. However, it's a seriously flawed class, IMO, and you'd have MORE fun playing many other classes. </P> <P>If you disagree - great!!! I am glad there are still some people who like to play the troubadours. It's already very hard to find them around, and they are useful to have in raids.</P> <P> </P>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <P>You're right I did forget the debuffs; however they do not save my groups. If I cast them or not will not swing the tide of a battle, or rather it hasn't yet.</P> <P>I'm assuming that your raid group is pretty tailor made for you. I strongly doubt that in a PUG or even a guild group that I'm adding 300 to everyone in it.</P> <P>And for the reccord I could easily smoke a pipe while playing a troub.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The debuffs aren't huge when fighting white-con or lower mobs, but when you've got a tank who is 4-5 levels below the mobs those debuffs can mean the difference between easy XP and the group wiping. Also, mezzing takes a HUGE chunk of the incoming damage off the tank. Charming takes it off the tank and adds it to the mobs for 14 seconds. We CAN be the deciding factor in a fight.</P> <P>Example: got into a pick-up group for Den about a month back, maybe slightly longer. They had a level 62 berzerker tanking for some strange reason. Anyway, they'd managed to get up to the first named mob (the one who drops the voulge, hes in a round room) and they basically had no chance of killing this thing. they'd wiped three times getting to the name and 4 times more on the named itself... it just wasn't going to happen. When i arrived we took the name down first attempt. The encounters in De consist of one ^^^ and one ^^ in each encounter. Mez one and kill the other meant that the group didnt take a single death until the water-elemental thing. They called it a night at that point, but the troubador in that group was the only reason that they managed to get past the first named. Was also the sole reason that we managed to get any further. they were wiping to the trash mobs. DEBUFFS FTW!</P> <P>My raid group is generally:</P> <P>me, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Warlock. And then whoever is left, occasionally a conjuror, sometimes a swash, and sometimes a monk or ranger.<BR></P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Charming takes it off the tank and adds it to the mobs for 14 seconds.</P> <P>Be careful here. Charming takes it off the tank for 14 seconds IF you are 70 and have the Master of the spell. At my level (high 50s) I don't find charm useful enough to use. By the time I select the mob, cast the charm (a long cast time), select a new target and direct attack, it might hit once or twice (assuming it wasn't resisted outright.) When it's done, the mob is then mad at me (which the tank does not appreciate.) All-in-all, I only use charm on rare occasion.</P> <P>If crowd control was my thing, I'd much rather play a coercer.</P>

[Krescendo]

<P>Speaking as a 40 troub.</P> <P>Yeah, charm--sheesh. Needs fixed in my opinion. It has a chance to be a significant part of the class definition, and, in general, its not there where you need it.</P> <P>It also removes all the debuffs from the mob when it breaks (right?).</P> <P>I have cast it on so-so solo mobs and had multiple resists, enough that I might have had a successful encounter without it, but wasting the time trying to land charm blew the encounter for me.</P> <P>I have had it go full term on yellow epics?? Thats just odd.</P> <P>In pvp the odds of it lasting long enough to do any good are very low. I cast it as a novelty or when desperate. The exception is the smart-rump standing next to the bell taunting you. If you are lucky and land it, you can jump in the water and he follows. My group can usually dispose of him whilst he is trying to figure out what key he hit by mistake. (dirge fear, is better for that, imho)</P> <P> </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krescendo wrote:<BR> <P>Speaking as a 40 troub.</P> <P>It also removes all the debuffs from the mob when it breaks (right?).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup. On top of not being tauntable or attackable in any way. So if you're tank is strong in AoE, you may want to let the tank hit it first with an AoE before you charm it. I'd just mez it, problem is that you only get the spell at 50, which I find is dumb.

[ted]

<P>bad dps huh wow u must be one sorry troub consider i parse around a 1000 ever t7 fight, its all in how u play the class... I can jester and PoTM and still blow through a parse. sorry but a decent equiped troub can have very high succes. Not many classes can solo the nest... I know I can, so I wouldnt complain to others how you do not understand the troub class nor their songs.</P> <P>most troubs dont even understand why INT is our most important thing maybe u should look into this first before u complain about our DPS sucking. Gear wise there are tons of proc gear do the quest they are easy. 3 quest = 100 extra dps, proc on the weapon probably another 20, diety quest another 20. so on so on, 600 int = 1700 to 1750 max hit for perfect shrill. sorry but I fail to reason with u on bad DPS when I have wizards complaining a troub is out dpsing them... know ur buff know other peoples buffs, u will sure hear a wizard beg for that flower song... tell them to give u their proc... also learn what songs to play it differs each fight because we are a multiple class ranging from group, solo, to raids u have atleast 8 buffs to choose from that are well enough to distingish what is best for the fight. such as do i want to haste casters? duh no it is worthless sept to the troub.... is there a better buff most likely which would probably increase ur dps more than 26% haste.  consider ur weapons hitting 1.6 a second haste drops it down to 1.0 u can not go below this so sometimes u have to think a little harder.  a troub can solo almost any named solo even with the changes! I dont hear other scouts saying well dang i soloed a heroic 72 triple up. nor many other classes for that matter, besides a wizard... </P> <P>troub is a different class which u can not compare to others, masters are cheap its one of the least played classes in game so invest in some!</P>

[Cuz]

<P>So what you're saying, is that I don't know how to play my class because I don't have the right proc items? Never mind what level I am, what strat I use, who I group with, the strats we use in groups. Nope. I don't know how to play my class because of equipment that I probably can't use at my level. </P> <P>Thumbs up.</P>

[ted]

<DIV>well considering u know so little and claim how useless we are and cant do anything, yes u are correct in saying u dont know how to play ur class. masters, int, and proc gear is a given even coercers can parse in the 1000s its all in how u play the class. who u group with and whose buffs do what. with the right set up u might even be able to parse i dunno 200 dps on the parse</DIV>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> and claim how useless we are and cant do anything</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No-one here is saying they are useless or can't do anything. Most people find them boring - like playing a buff bot. That's why troubadours have fallen until they are the least-played class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm glad you find your troub fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ted19 wrote:<BR> <DIV>well considering u know so little and claim how useless we are and cant do anything, yes u are correct in saying u dont know how to play ur class. masters, int, and proc gear is a given even coercers can parse in the 1000s its all in how u play the class. who u group with and whose buffs do what. with the right set up u might even be able to parse i dunno 200 dps on the parse</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I try to get all my skills to adept 3 or higher (I have a handful that aren't), my int is reasonably good for someone who doesn't raid, and I have all the proc items I can find / afford. In your books that makes me a good troub.

[ted]

in my books that doesnt make u a good troub, much less having any gear or masters makes anyone a GOOD player, knowing how to play ur class makes u a good player! it is easy to find players who cant play. like playing with a tank that doesnt know how to taunt it gets pretty annoying when everyone dies because they forget to change targets to taunt. What u have said though is that u dont know how to play ur class nor understand how to use one effectively just stating ur obvious facts from prior conversation.  Any class can parse and do dps and do what they were originally made to do, it just takes going beyond the conventional buff bot to get past those nice cliche people seem to believe troubs are. so yes gear = 1 thing, spells another, but a bad player is a bad player and maybe should look for a easier class to play such as swashy where u only have damage spells and debuffs to worry about.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> bad player is a bad player and maybe should look for a easier <BR>> class to play such as swashy where u only have damage <BR>> spells and debuffs to worry about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I bow to your uberness. It's good to know that someone as skilled as yourself chooses to play a troubadour. Conversely, it must be comforting to you to know that newbs such as myself prefer other classes.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ted19 wrote:<BR> in my books that doesnt make u a good troub, much less having any gear or masters makes anyone a GOOD player, knowing how to play ur class makes u a good player! it is easy to find players who cant play. like playing with a tank that doesnt know how to taunt it gets pretty annoying when everyone dies because they forget to change targets to taunt. What u have said though is that u dont know how to play ur class nor understand how to use one effectively just stating ur obvious facts from prior conversation.  Any class can parse and do dps and do what they were originally made to do, it just takes going beyond the conventional buff bot to get past those nice cliche people seem to believe troubs are. so yes gear = 1 thing, spells another, but a bad player is a bad player and maybe should look for a easier class to play such as swashy where u only have damage spells and debuffs to worry about.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My point is that you haven't actually mentioned anything dynamic that you do. I have no idea if you have a better strat then I do because all you mentioned is having high int and proc stuff. But you seem to think you're a lot better than I am at playing a troub, so I'm interested in knowing what you do to be so fantastic.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ted19 wrote:<BR> <P>bad dps huh wow u must be one sorry troub consider i parse around a 1000 ever t7 fight, its all in how u play the class... I can jester and PoTM and still blow through a parse. sorry but a decent equiped troub can have very high succes. Not many classes can solo the nest... I know I can, so I wouldnt complain to others how you do not understand the troub class nor their songs.</P> <P>most troubs dont even understand why INT is our most important thing maybe u should look into this first before u complain about our DPS sucking. Gear wise there are tons of proc gear do the quest they are easy. 3 quest = 100 extra dps, proc on the weapon probably another 20, diety quest another 20. so on so on, 600 int = 1700 to 1750 max hit for perfect shrill. sorry but I fail to reason with u on bad DPS when I have wizards complaining a troub is out dpsing them... know ur buff know other peoples buffs, u will sure hear a wizard beg for that flower song... tell them to give u their proc... also learn what songs to play it differs each fight because we are a multiple class ranging from group, solo, to raids u have atleast 8 buffs to choose from that are well enough to distingish what is best for the fight. such as do i want to haste casters? duh no it is worthless sept to the troub.... is there a better buff most likely which would probably increase ur dps more than 26% haste.  consider ur weapons hitting 1.6 a second haste drops it down to 1.0 u can not go below this so sometimes u have to think a little harder.  a troub can solo almost any named solo even with the changes! I dont hear other scouts saying well dang i soloed a heroic 72 triple up. nor many other classes for that matter, besides a wizard... </P> <P>troub is a different class which u can not compare to others, masters are cheap its one of the least played classes in game so invest in some!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Post your zonewides hot shot!  3 zones.</P> <P>Also, there is no 1sec hard cap on melee attacks, that was removed some time ago.</P> <P>I'd like to be uber, please share your vast wealth.</P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Take away our buffs that take a concentration slot for a second, what are you left with? Stealth, run speed buff, disarm, bad DPS, Jester and PoM. Most would probably bring more to the party than we would. Now add your conc slot buffs and tell me how much gameplay that was. Once you put your buffs up what "defines" a troub is done. <FONT color=#ff0000><snip></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You seem to have forgotten the debuffs we have that let our groups take on things that they wouldnt normally be able to survive.</P> <P>Bad DPS? According to a parse in Courts (t6 raid zone) i add 300ish DPS to everyone in my group. That combined with my personal DPS of 500ish means im adding more DPS than ANY other class in the raid. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Back it up Paikis.  I'd like to see how you add 300 dps to 5 people in your group in a zonewide parse in t6.

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>It wasn't zonewide, it was 2 fights that i parsed. I think my guild would be [Removed for Content] if i turned up to raid and just didnt do anything for the whole zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The group was: conjuror(scout pet) wizard, warlock, warlock, fury, me. On the two fights i parsed there was a different of around 300 DPS on all 5 of those mages. I agree that if there were scouts in the group the DPS added would be less, but there werent. I also agree with your coming statement that 2 fights are not enough data. It is however all i have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone elses guild wants to let them do nothing for a whole zone, go for your life.</DIV>

[TonyBagz]

<P>I usually parse about 500-650 on most T7 raids. I know it's not awesome, but I don't think it's that bad considered our raids for the last 4 months or so haven't been dropped many Duel-wields, so I don't have any <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   But when you combine the groups proc buffs and POTM and jester's, allegro for reduced casting etc.etc. A troub doesn't greatly increase the DPS of the group. Combining with debuffs to the actual mobs blah blah blah DPS goes up for the whole raid.</P> <P>The only people who complain about troub's being buff bots are those who have no idea how to play the class. It's like saying the only point of a Coercer is to mem wipe Alzid on the Vyemm pull...</P> <P> </P> <P>Kouros</P> <P>lvl 70 Troubador of Stasis</P> <P>Nek Server</P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> The only people who complain about troub's being buff <BR>> bots are those who have no idea how to play the class. </P> <P>I'm glad you enjoy the class. Do you have an explanation regarding why the troubadour has fallen until it is now the least-played class? </P> <P>Perhaps you are happy with the situation and enjoy being one of the few troubadours: Able to buy Masters relatively cheaply and wanted in raids. If so, you win - that's exactly what you have.</P> <P>If you'd rather see a few more people play the class, perhaps you need to listen to those people you dismiss so easily.</P> <P>I know how to play the class. </P>

[TonyBagz]

<DIV>Haha simple spelling mistake, I was agreeing with you both. That's doesn't increase....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SHOULD BE DOES!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With full AA the proc buff has a 45% chance of procing and I think Jester's when it's full has a 48% or 50% recast reduction. The proc alone in a casting group is going to hit almost every other landed spell. When looking at zonewides for my guild it usually procs for between 1 - 1.5 million extra damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the reason why troubs are the least played are because people don't know what we're all about. Everyone wants to smack like 1400 DPS on a raid, troubs will never do that, but we'll help those doing 1400 do a couple hundred more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheap masters, I picked up my POTM for 15p. Maybe I'm thinking too highly of the spell, but considering it's one of the most important for Troubs, but I think it's like a Wiz picking up Ice Nova for 15p...</DIV><p>Message Edited by TonyBagz on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TonyBagz wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the reason why troubs are the least played are because people don't know what we're all about. Everyone wants to smack like 1400 DPS on a raid, troubs will never do that, but we'll help those doing 1400 do a couple hundred more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by TonyBagz on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the reason they're not played a lot is because they're dull for a good long while, and get a bit better way late. Mez you get at 50, PoM at 58 and then Jester's at 65. Those spells to me are what I think troubs are all about. They're very well designed, and fun. That's 3 spells and the first one you get at 50. It's too little too late in my books.<BR>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> I think the reason why troubs are the least played are <BR>> because people don't know what we're all about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People in EQ2 range from smart to dumb just like everywhere else. However, a good portion of the population is just as smart as you are. If troubadours were all that, people would start playing them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadours are the least-played class, because other classes offer more. I think Jenoy said it pretty well. If you'll excuse my executive summary: "too little, too late."</DIV>

[TonyBagz]

<DIV>Yea that's true to. Thinking back, I was kinda bored with my troub before I started getting into the 50s.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TonyBagz wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yea that's true to. Thinking back, I was kinda bored with my troub before I started getting into the 50s.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think proper internet protocal has it that one of us has to insult the other before the thread can actually get constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're a poop face.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Leaving typos there so you have fodder for your rebutal :p</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Thinking back, I was kinda bored with my troub <BR>> before I started getting into the 50s.</P> <P>I don't know when you were in your 50s, but if it was before the nerfs to Mez and charm, then it's even worse now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I played my troub with the old mez for a few weeks. I had a LOT of fun with it and was real excited to level up. I saved my groups from wipes with it a few times.</P> <P>I also remember getting a yellow ^^^ heroic add while fighting a tough mob. We killed the mob, but both our healers were OOP and our tank was at about 5% health. The yellow heroic was full strength. In a frenzy of clicking, I dropped three buffs (back then charm took three conc slots) and charmed the mob. I kept it charmed until healer power was good enough, and we killed it. </P> <P>*sigh* Those were the days ...</P> <P>*sigh*</P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

[Mulilla]

<P>I have been playing little time these days due to RL issues, but last night with some guildies went to Academwhatever.  It was a 5 man grp having just fun, testing spells and AAs, not triying to do max DPS nor anything like that.  I was with a dirge who has the grp increase chance to proc AA and i only had 2 AAs in aria AA.  The description of the spell said 46% chance to proc and i tried to test it zonewide with the wizzy in our grp.  After finishing the instance aria procs from the wizzy were more than 20% of his total dmg (acording to ACT).  I was shoked...</P> <P>I just cant imagine how much dmg would be a full caster grp with a troub playing aria+5AAs and a dirge with enhance poc AA.  sure it aint going to happen in raids since noone would grp a dirge+troub in the same grp while raiding (unless you have tons of troubs and dirges, wich i doubt <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  but im sure it would be A LOT of damage.</P> <P>Well, i didnt have to play actively, since buffs are cast and go, and i could be just afk, but this is one of the times that your group can see one of the things (with numbers) that a troub brings to the grp.  Wish i could parse the same way my other buffs.</P>

[Ferguson]

I'm not sure if it's the lack of interactiveness that's causing the low population of troubadors.   The previously least played class, Coercer, is probably the *most* interactive.<div></div>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> The previously least played class, Coercer, is probably <BR>> the *most* interactive.</P> <P>You have a good point. I think it's not enough to be interactive - it needs to be fun. When I tried the coercer it seemed like when everything went right, it was fun. When anything went wrong, I was dead. It got frustrating, although I hear it has been improved.</P>

[Rampagious]

<DIV>Idk I have fun on my troubador - my buffs are incredible - my solo ability is fine, my dps is DEFINATELY fine - I average 850-1.1k zonewides every single zone.  Imo the reason why people complain about the troubador, is because our counterpart dirges are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing retardedly incredible - and make a NOTICABLE differnce on raids - the troubador makes a huge differnce, but you don't notice a troubador like you notice a dirge.</DIV>

[Rampagious]

<P>And for those of you who are about to tell me I am lieing...again...here is a parse from tonights LoA, this is entirely random and not digging up my best parses - and to take note, we only had 16 people in raid.</P> <P>Zonewide:</P> <P>Allies: (35:36) 35746990 | 16735.48<BR>Pryz 3708876 | 1736.37(10%)<BR>Pickme 3585350 | 1678.54(10%)<BR>Nueen 3573300 | 1672.89(9%)<BR>Hoopdee 3553310 | 1663.54(9%)<BR>Dragorn 3529613 | 1652.44(9%)<BR>Kobal 3157920 | 1478.43(8%)<BR>Quenthal 2599770 | 1217.12(7%)<BR>Calaglin 2461532 | 1152.40(6%)<BR>Falcogen 2408438 | 1127.55(6%)<BR>Rampagious 2271315 | 1012.72(5%)</P> <P>My best named encounter, Gnorbl the Playful:</P> <P>Allies: (01:26) 2068105 | 24047.73<BR>Dragorn 231536 | 2692.28(11%)<BR>Pryz 231152 | 2687.81(11%)<BR>Falcogen 221032 | 2570.14(10%)<BR>Hoopdee 202705 | 2357.04(9%)<BR>Pickme 189447 | 2202.87(9%)<BR>Kobal 186361 | 2166.99(9%)<BR>Quenthal 152875 | 1777.62(7%)<BR>Rampagious 131654 | 1530.86(6%)</P> <P>This is definately not bragging, just proving that troubadors definately can do fine dps, for those of you complaing about it.  For those of you wondering my group consisted of 2 wizards, a warden, a necro, and a swash.  And a link to my gear: <U><FONT color=#810081><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=490341107" target=_blank>Rampagious</A></FONT></U><BR></P><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 PM</span>

[ted]

That is around my standard parse as well. Usually I range in 1200 to 1500 in LoA, Labs about the same HoS decreases to around 1000. depends on the raid zone.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ted19 wrote:<BR> That is around my standard parse as well. Usually I range in 1200 to 1500 in LoA, Labs about the same HoS decreases to around 1000. depends on the raid zone.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Right, but we know that Ramp is a great troub in one of the premiere raiding guilds in this game.  You boast higher than his zonewides in an "easy to parse zone - LoA".  So, I want to see your proof.  3 zonewide parses.  Let's see them.</P>

[Thrashercat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thrashercat wrote:<BR>I am glad that a lot of us realize that this class is in fact fun to play no matter how much others like to rain on the parade because they aren't 100% satisfied. I started out wtih a fury and went to a troub so I could have more flexibility and fun raiding, plus my guild needed one at the time. I love her and don't regret it at all. Plus we are in high need which is always a bonus. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just because he's pessimistic doesn't mean he's wrong.  How long have you been playing your troub, just out of curiousity?  </P> <P>If you haven't lived through all of the nerfs since LU13 (really, the nicest thing they did for troubs in any update since then was to NOT touch us in any way), or even most of them, it's hard to be as pessimistic about your troub.  </P> <P>To the OP... a lot of what we are complaining about, you will barely notice, because you won't know what it was like before.  Also, it takes a while to become totally disillusioned with any class, even a bard.  I love my troub, but I only raid with her.  I used to bring a great deal more to groups and to myself solo than I do now.  The mezz and charm changes don't effect my raiding since I couldn't use those abilities on raids anyway.</P> <P>But, I have to be honest with you... you can kill a hell of a lot more at your level than you can at the high levels... there is a major difference in your strengths and abilities.... but most people don't become bards to solo as they are a group oriented class anyway.</P> <P>I say keep it up with the class until you stop liking it... if you continue to enjoy your troub all the better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have been playing my troub since May 20, 2005 so I have lived through before and after the LU13 and beyond changes. I guess I have a somewhat rose-colored glasses view as I try not to be pessimistic as it just leads to a snowball effect of negativity. I did not mean to imply that just because the OP was pessimistic meant he was wrong. I went through quite a while of whining about how much I hated my troub and how much we sucked..etc... To tell you the truth, I really started to love her more when I was high enough to raid. I realized how much more free I was in a raid with a troub. I did not have to worry about the health of my group, I got to debuff, run all over the place, decrease casting times, mez, and switch bujffs when needed. Yes I do admit that it can appear dull at times. I guess I just try and do  my best. To the OP, stick it out, see what you think, if you don't like it, don't force yourself<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Tanatz]

<div></div>I haven't read all the responses but one thing I bet hasn't been mentioned yet:both in EQ1 and EQ2 whichever of my alts happened to see the most new content was the one I ended up making my main.  In EQ1 my first class was a Magician, then I made about 10 different alts until finally decided on a Magician again.  I powerlevelled like mad, saw all sorts of new stuff and I became enveloped in him and I just enjoyed the game without thinking about why my class was better or worse or what needed to be changed.  It just wasn't an issue because I was having fun, making friends, earning insane loot and cash and raiding in an awesome guild.Same thing is happening now with EQ2.  My main is a Troubador, lvl 54.  Naturally, I've seen more of the world with her than I have with any other toon, she has the best gear, the most cash, the most masters, the most quests started and completed and the highest earning potential of any alt - so I play her the most.  Eventually, she'll get to 70 and eventually she'll get scooped up by some raiding guild and eventually she'll have a full set of amazing gear all because people come here and complain or read complaints and then reroll - more opportunity for me.  I get groups no problem now, it's gotten easier as I've gotten higher level.  I usually log in, go lfg immediately and - no exaggeration - 4 out of 5 times I get an invite within 30 seconds.  If not, I take advantage of her stealth, run speed and tracking and knock off easy quests until I get an invite or make a group myself.  I'm seeing new stuff daily, especially with the expansion.  I'm getting AA xp like mad, my gear is pretty terrible so practically every time I get a group I land some sort of ugprade.  Moral:  if you're having fun stick with it, I guarantee you'll still have fun later on, moreso probably.  If not and if you're truly bothered now by what others see as apparent flaws in the class, then reroll because you're just wasting time.  Get out there and see all that there is to see, I'm convinced the game is fun no matter what class you play.edit:  I'll admit, sometimes I yearn for a bit of firepower so I rolled up a Woof Elf Assasin and a Dark Elf Warlock.  I don't have the funds, time or patience to twink them to the brim so that is an added motivation for me to level my Troubador - so she can be my cash cow for the little ones~<div></div><p>Message Edited by Tanatz on <span class=date_text>12-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[Isaelee]

<DIV>I've been having fun with my Troubador so far. Also happy it's part of the scouting class. He's only lvl 19, but it's been fun.</DIV>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> <P>> The only people who complain about troub's being buff <BR>> bots are those who have no idea how to play the class. </P> <P>I'm glad you enjoy the class. <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Do you have an explanation regarding why the troubadour has fallen until it is now the least-played class? </STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Perhaps you are happy with the situation and enjoy being one of the few troubadours: Able to buy Masters relatively cheaply and wanted in raids. If so, you win - that's exactly what you have.</P> <P>If you'd rather see a few more people play the class, perhaps you need to listen to those people you dismiss so easily.</P> <P>I know how to play the class. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yes in fact i DO </P> <P>its rather simple </P> <P>most other classes can be played and perform there primary function with little thought and little effort </P> <P>not to say there arnt truly great players of those classes but even an amiture can perform acceptibly and successfully with most any class</P> <P>but a troub unless truely well played is lackluster </P> <P>so troubs are the least easy mode class in the game yet when played well there exceptional in both pve and pvp </P> <P>ive solo'd green and blue ^^^ NAMES as well as just last night i solod a twinked 53 monk on my 43 troub </P> <P>so a truely good player will love the chalange and rewards of playing a troub while a lesser player will simply be bored and move on <BR></P>

[Rampagious]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ted19 wrote:<BR> That is around my standard parse as well. Usually I range in 1200 to 1500 in LoA, Labs about the same HoS decreases to around 1000. depends on the raid zone.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Since you we're talking about HoS, here is tonights run <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Allies: (45:09) 57825645 | 21345.75<BR>Ishbu 5404773 | 1995.12(9%)<BR>Falcogen 5302323 | 1957.30(9%)<BR>Snarks 5125959 | 1892.20(8%)<BR>Pickme 4835100 | 1784.83(8%)<BR>Hoopdee 4349205 | 1605.47(7%)<BR>Flauros 4210398 | 1554.23(7%)<BR>Nueen 4038473 | 1490.76(6%)<BR>Calaglin 3726702 | 1375.67(6%)<BR>Dragorn 3710400 | 1369.66(6%)<BR>Kobal 3617274 | 1335.28(6%)<BR>Rampagious 2993349 | 1104.97(5%)<BR>Morphling 1969996 | 727.20(3%)<BR>Kurizobo 1800193 | 664.52(3%)</P>

[Slapfish]

<P>I'm reading this thread with interest because my daughter is playing a Troub and at level 25 making the decision to stick it out or roll something else, much like the OP. While I understand the loyalty to your chosen class I would also like to know the honest truth of the matter. </P> <P>IF you had it to do all over again, would you start a Troub or would you save yourself a lot of frustration and play something else?</P> <P>Believe me, I understand what it's like to play a class that Devs have failed to give proper attention to. I played a Mystic to level 42, got frustrated and quit the game altogether for over a year. I just got my daughter interested in the game again (which is nice for me) and I don't want her to get frustrated and quit. I would rather see her play a class that is capable of being successful in the game in all ways a character needs to be. </P> <P>Will she be able to solo writs before they are gray and give no exp? Will she be able to do the solo parts of HQ's that no one likes to help with? Will she have the utilities needed to reach tough places on the maps and talk to necessary NPC's or get to grouping spots? What about other fun solo quests? Will she have to ask for help killing Sea Turtles and Sand Crabs?  Will she be able to solo exp at a reasonable rate if she can't find a group? Will she look around in frustration as she sees players 5 levels below her take on MOB's she has to run from?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slapfish wrote:<BR> <P>I'm reading this thread with interest because my daughter is playing a Troub and at level 25 making the decision to stick it out or roll something else, much like the OP. While I understand the loyalty to your chosen class I would also like to know the honest truth of the matter. </P> <P>IF you had it to do all over again, would you start a Troub or would you save yourself a lot of frustration and play something else?</P> <P>Believe me, I understand what it's like to play a class that Devs have failed to give proper attention to. I played a Mystic to level 42, got frustrated and quit the game altogether for over a year. I just got my daughter interested in the game again (which is nice for me) and I don't want her to get frustrated and quit. I would rather see her play a class that is capable of being successful in the game in all ways a character needs to be. </P> <P>Will she be able to solo writs before they are gray and give no exp? Will she be able to do the solo parts of HQ's that no one likes to help with? Will she have the utilities needed to reach tough places on the maps and talk to necessary NPC's or get to grouping spots? What about other fun solo quests? Will she have to ask for help killing Sea Turtles and Sand Crabs?  Will she be able to solo exp at a reasonable rate if she can't find a group? Will she look around in frustration as she sees players 5 levels below her take on MOB's she has to run from?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would have played another class.  Back in Nov '04 I rolled a troub as I liked the "buffer role" in scout form and it was offered as a Qeynos character.  It was my understanding that my troub would be able to dps similar to other scouts albeit at a lesser pace.  I also liked the defensive capabilities of the troubador.  </P> <P>I was at level cap and raiding when the first troub revamp occurred.  The defensive capabilities that I loved were completely gutted from the class, but now I'm raiding full time, so it's not as much of an issue.</P> <P>Now with each change that we go through it makes it harder and harder to keep playing this toon.  I don't play as much as I used to and I have no inclination to bring another toon up to level cap, grind AAs and secure all the masters for that character.</P> <P>So, I'm stuck with a troub.</P> <P>The plus is that although I often feel inadequate in raids, I know that I'm very valued for my passive buffs and my above average dps (for a troub).  I still am envious of the "real" dps classes that achieve VERY tangible effects by playing their characters well.</P> <P> </P> <P>For your other questions:</P> <P>- solo writs should be doable by all classes</P> <P>- HQ parts are purely dependent on level, quest and gear.  Some are soloable at high levels, but most are not soloable at the appropriate level for the rewards.  </P> <P>- Utiliy, runspeed and invis will make it easy for her to travel and discover areas on maps.  </P> <P>- Solo quests should be doable, but some may be difficult.  </P> <P>- Solo xp isn't very good for the troubador as we are not efficient soloers.  </P> <P>- She may look around in frustration when seeing others kill mobs that she has no prayer of killing by herself.<BR></P>

[Faelgalad]

<P>My Main is a Paladin, so I'am used to suffering. </P> <P> </P> <P>Rolled a Troubadour, 'cause my Raid has not enough, I'am the Raidleader and a Troubadour can stand arround, giving me time to analyse and give commands, while beeing useful with the Buffs. Hope Troubs can take an AOE or two from an Epic, like my Paladin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Leveling up is not so much a problem, my Raid will shuttle me up. </P> <P>That's I guess more an special case of becoming an Troubadour. </P>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slapfish wrote:<BR> <P>I'm reading this thread with interest because my daughter is playing a Troub and at level 25 making the decision to stick it out or roll something else, much like the OP. While I understand the loyalty to your chosen class I would also like to know the honest truth of the matter.</P> <P>IF you had it to do all over again, would you start a Troub or would you save yourself a lot of frustration and play something else?</P> <P>Believe me, I understand what it's like to play a class that Devs have failed to give proper attention to. I played a Mystic to level 42, got frustrated and quit the game altogether for over a year. I just got my daughter interested in the game again (which is nice for me) and I don't want her to get frustrated and quit. I would rather see her play a class that is capable of being successful in the game in all ways a character needs to be.</P> <P>Will she be able to solo writs before they are gray and give no exp? Will she be able to do the solo parts of HQ's that no one likes to help with? Will she have the utilities needed to reach tough places on the maps and talk to necessary NPC's or get to grouping spots? What about other fun solo quests? Will she have to ask for help killing Sea Turtles and Sand Crabs?  Will she be able to solo exp at a reasonable rate if she can't find a group? Will she look around in frustration as she sees players 5 levels below her take on MOB's she has to run from?</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i would gladly do it again</P> <P>my inquis (which i love) has fallen tot he wayside do to my love of my troub</P> <P>with good gear and spells and a bit of practive we can solo many things that others cannot  do to our unparrlelled kiting skills </P> <P>a troub isnt as easy to learn as some othe classes but once u know it and know it well its fantastic<BR>i would make a few recomendations though</P> <P>rember we are NOT scouts were bards</P> <P>that means were CASTERS with scout skills</P> <P>while you shouldnt neglect ur agi and st you should focus more on ur int  especcialy since most of ur kiting is done with spells that u can cast on the fly</P> <P>i recomend melodic armor  (its made for our class)</P> <P>and mostly caster jewlery  with str agi weapons   ( hex dolls can be used to make up for ur lower stats if u wish )</P> <P>the melodic armor gives str agi and int</P> <P>while the caster jewlery gives u plenty of int some resists witht he wis and your much needed stamina</P> <P>masters or adpts  are a must for ur self buff your str buff  your snare/mental debuff your aria's and ur cast on the fly spells if nothign else get those master or adept 3 atleast  it will make a huge differance ( although as always all masters/adept3 is best )</P> <P>if u can get more ur health regen buff is very helpfull soloing</P> <P>troubs can be a real chalange to master but  can be highly rewarding once u do</P>

[Steelbreath]

I agree with Ispideri. Take a look at the least played classes, for the most part they are the classes that aren't easily defined. Are there problems with troubs? Yes, but there are issues with all classes, and if you read these forums enough you realize that a large protion of the posters aren't happy with their classes.<div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelbreath wrote:<BR>I agree with Ispideri. Take a look at the least played classes, for the most part they are the classes that aren't easily defined. Are there problems with troubs? Yes, but there are issues with all classes, and if you read these forums enough you realize that a large protion of the posters aren't happy with their classes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>abosloutly people tend to take the eazsy road and go for ealy defined classes  and catagories </P> <P>healer, dps scout ,dps caster , tank </P> <P>cut and dry  while they may all have complexites there main focus is specific and defined while troubs and other less played classes are more difficult to quantify and more dificult to learn but no less rewarding  </P>

[Cuz]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Steelbreath wrote:I agree with Ispideri. Take a look at the least played classes, for the most part they are the classes that aren't easily defined. Are there problems with troubs? Yes, but there are issues with all classes, and if you read these forums enough you realize that a large protion of the posters aren't happy with their classes. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>abosloutly people tend to take the eazsy road and go for ealy defined classes  and catagories </p> <p>healer, dps scout ,dps caster , tank </p> <p>cut and dry  while they may all have complexites there main focus is specific and defined while troubs and other less played classes are more difficult to quantify and more dificult to learn but no less rewarding  </p><hr></blockquote>I'd say that healer, tank, dps scout and dps caster are more of a challange to play in group than a troub. Not to shoot the legs off your high horse, but troubs are by far, the easiest class I've played in this game. Possibly any mmo.</div><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>12-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

[Ballads]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><blockquote><div></div>I'd say that healer, tank, dps scout and dps caster are more of a challange to play in group than a troub. Not to shoot the legs off your high horse, but troubs are by far, the easiest class I've played in this game. Possibly any mmo.</blockquote> </blockquote></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I mean you can be a suckass troubador and slack off all you want ,yeah, but the same can be said for about any class. Not reconizing good Troubadors/dirges from suckass ones is the sure sign of a nub. How [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard is it to play a wizard ? I mean nuke,nuke,dot,canni wow thats real [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard.Edit: wait this bullcrap really pisses me off . What uber hard class do you play jenoy ? Tell ya what ill trade you classes for a night and lets see who plays what class better.Love to see you put up 1kdps while jester's capping 5 people, avoiding everyother ae, and maintaining all debuffs you arogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Ignorant people think a bards job is easy because are buffs are so great and all of those can be cast pre-fight, but there is alot more to playing a bard well then just that. As a troub i bring more then most to any raid im in. A dirge brings more with res. My only real complaint as a troubador is i have nothing as good as a dirges 2 resses.</div><p>Message Edited by pickle27 on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 PM</span>

[Jooneau]

If you have any doubts about how much fun you will have playing a Troubador in the long run, I would switch to another class before it's too late. It's no coincidence that Troubadors are among the least played classes in EQ II. They really just aren't that much fun or powerful compared to the other classes. I've a level 70 Troubador so I've experienced what it's like to play one from beginning to end.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>I totally agree with Jenoy. Of the five classes I play, the troubadour is the easiest to play well. The necro and mystic are hardest to play well. The swashbuckler and warlock somewhere in between.</P> <P>Edit: Once I get Precisions of the Maestro, and Jester's Cap, the troubadour could become more interesting. I still don't see it being any more than middle of the pack in terms of difficulty in playing.</P> <P>> As a troub i bring more then most to any raid im in.</P> <P>I think everyone recognizes that.</P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>pickle27 wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><blockquote><div></div>I'd say that healer, tank, dps scout and dps caster are more of a challange to play in group than a troub. Not to shoot the legs off your high horse, but troubs are by far, the easiest class I've played in this game. Possibly any mmo.</blockquote> </blockquote></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I mean you can be a suckass troubador and slack off all you want ,yeah, but the same can be said for about any class. Not reconizing good Troubadors/dirges from suckass ones is the sure sign of a nub. How [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard is it to play a wizard ? I mean nuke,nuke,dot,canni wow thats real [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard.Edit: wait this bullcrap really pisses me off . What uber hard class do you play jenoy ? Tell ya what ill trade you classes for a night and lets see who plays what class better.Love to see you put up 1kdps while jester's capping 5 people, avoiding everyother ae, and maintaining all debuffs you arogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Ignorant people think a bards job is easy because are buffs are so great and all of those can be cast pre-fight, but there is alot more to playing a bard well then just that. As a troub i bring more then most to any raid im in. A dirge brings more with res. My only real complaint as a troubador is i have nothing as good as a dirges 2 resses.</div><p>Message Edited by pickle27 on <span class="date_text">01-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The classes I play that harder than my troub:- Monk- Swashbuckler- Fury- NecroClasses that I have played that are harder than my troub.- Mystic- Illusionist- Coercer- Ranger- WarlockJust because you've never tried another class doesn't mean you have the right to play the ignorant card and spout crap. As for your [Removed for Content] contest, how about this, you win. You're a better troub than me. Do you feel better? Was making yourself look better on the internet what you needed? I'm sure you'll get all the ladies now. Get 'em tiger.Ps. Can't wait to see if keeping Jester up on 5 people is really any hard.</div>

[Rampagious]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pickle27 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say that healer, tank, dps scout and dps caster are more of a challange to play in group than a troub. Not to shoot the legs off your high horse, but troubs are by far, the easiest class I've played in this game. Possibly any mmo.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><SPAN class=date_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I mean you can be a suckass troubador and slack off all you want ,yeah, but the same can be said for about any class. Not reconizing good Troubadors/dirges from suckass ones is the sure sign of a nub. How [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard is it to play a wizard ? I mean nuke,nuke,dot,canni wow thats real [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard.<BR><BR>Edit: wait this bullcrap really pisses me off . What uber hard class do you play jenoy ? Tell ya what ill trade you classes for a night and lets see who plays what class better.Love to see you put up 1kdps while jester's capping 5 people, avoiding everyother ae, and maintaining all debuffs you arogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Ignorant people think a bards job is easy because are buffs are so great and all of those can be cast pre-fight, but there is alot more to playing a bard well then just that. As a troub i bring more then most to any raid im in. A dirge brings more with res. My only real complaint as a troubador is i have nothing as good as a dirges 2 resses.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by pickle27 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:02 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The classes I play that harder than my troub:<BR>- Monk<BR>- Swashbuckler<BR>- Fury<BR>- Necro<BR><BR>Classes that I have played that are harder than my troub.<BR>- Mystic<BR>- Illusionist<BR>- Coercer<BR>- Ranger<BR>- Warlock<BR><BR>Just because you've never tried another class doesn't mean you have the right to play the ignorant card and spout crap. As for your [Removed for Content] contest, how about this, you win. You're a better troub than me. Do you feel better? Was making yourself look better on the internet what you needed? I'm sure you'll get all the ladies now. <BR><BR>Get 'em tiger.<BR><BR>Ps. Can't wait to see if keeping Jester up on 5 people is really any hard.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ROFL.  For the record no class in this game is very difficult...I can absolutely not believe you listed MONK!??!?!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!  On top of that you listed the hi I can hit 5 buttons necro.  Hi I single handedly break the healing tree with 3 direct heals and 3 group heals, and on top of that I can parse 1400 on raids fury.  Let me rephrase that, healers are the easiest classes in the game, period.  You named enchanters are harder...they are the exact same difficulty minus you never have to change your target.  But what it really comes down to is nothing in this game is hard if you have half a brain, so no, a troubador is definately not either.</P> <P>EDIT:  While I do believe that troubador's are relatively easy, what I am a bit dumbfounded by is how really not any troubadors can even come close to touching Ballads, myself, or Pacc in the DPS category (if you do don't get butt hurt I just don't know you) when we all spam Jester's keep group oriented buffs up, and still dish out the dps.</P> <P>EDIT#2:  And to reinforce my post, I have played every single class in this game on a raid besides a warlock.</P><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 PM</span>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>EDIT:  While I do believe that troubador's are relatively easy, what I am a bit dumbfounded by is how really not any troubadors can even come close to touching Ballads, myself, or Pacc in the DPS category (if you do don't get butt hurt I just don't know you) when we all spam Jester's keep group oriented buffs up, and still dish out the dps.</P> <P>Message Edited by Rampagious on <SPAN class=date_text>01-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:39 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can do between 600-700 dps with only my buffs in a group.  Raid dps is highly group and buff dependent.  Some times I zonewide 700, sometimes I'm closer to 1k.  Lately, I can't say much though as we've been rolling without brigs, so my parses are on the low side.  I'm sure there are many like me though (fully mastered, decently geared) and doing decent dps. </P> <P>The main thing that is killing me in this expansion is the melee misses.<BR></P> <P>btw, keeping 5 people jestered is about as hard as writing 6 macros and watching a buff window.  target macro, jester macro, /assist macro - rinse/repeat</P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>I guess I missed what your point was Rampagious.</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> </div><p>ROFL.  For the record no class in this game is very difficult...I can absolutely not believe you listed MONK!??!?!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!  On top of that you listed the hi I can hit 5 buttons necro.  Hi I single handedly break the healing tree with 3 direct heals and 3 group heals, and on top of that I can parse 1400 on raids fury.  Let me rephrase that, healers are the easiest classes in the game, period.  You named enchanters are harder...they are the exact same difficulty minus you never have to change your target.  But what it really comes down to is nothing in this game is hard if you have half a brain, so no, a troubador is definately not either.</p> <p>EDIT:  <b><font color="#ff0000">While I do believe that troubador's are relatively easy, what I am a bit dumbfounded by is how really not any troubadors can even come close to touching Ballads, myself, or Pacc in the DPS category (if you do don't get butt hurt I just don't know you) when we all spam Jester's keep group oriented buffs up, and still dish out the dps.</font></b></p> <p></p><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class="date_text">01-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">09:39 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>release your uber raid strats to us <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Rampagious]

I use piercers so...all I did was get as much + to pierce skill as possible...get as much dps from adormnets/ring as I could...and then max out spell proc gear and spam my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't do anything out of the ordinary :o

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pickle27 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say that healer, tank, dps scout and dps caster are more of a challange to play in group than a troub. Not to shoot the legs off your high horse, but troubs are by far, the easiest class I've played in this game. Possibly any mmo.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><SPAN class=date_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I mean you can be a suckass troubador and slack off all you want ,yeah, but the same can be said for about any class. Not reconizing good Troubadors/dirges from suckass ones is the sure sign of a nub. How [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard is it to play a wizard ? I mean nuke,nuke,dot,canni wow thats real [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard.<BR><BR>Edit: wait this bullcrap really pisses me off . What uber hard class do you play jenoy ? Tell ya what ill trade you classes for a night and lets see who plays what class better.Love to see you put up 1kdps while jester's capping 5 people, avoiding everyother ae, and maintaining all debuffs you arogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Ignorant people think a bards job is easy because are buffs are so great and all of those can be cast pre-fight, but there is alot more to playing a bard well then just that. As a troub i bring more then most to any raid im in. A dirge brings more with res. My only real complaint as a troubador is i have nothing as good as a dirges 2 resses.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by pickle27 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:02 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The classes I play that harder than my troub:<BR>- Monk<BR>- Swashbuckler<BR>- Fury<BR>- Necro<BR><BR>Classes that I have played that are harder than my troub.<BR>- Mystic<BR>- Illusionist<BR>- Coercer<BR>- Ranger<BR>- Warlock<BR><BR>Just because you've never tried another class doesn't mean you have the right to play the ignorant card and spout crap. As for your [Removed for Content] contest, how about this, you win. You're a better troub than me. Do you feel better? Was making yourself look better on the internet what you needed? I'm sure you'll get all the ladies now. <BR><BR>Get 'em tiger.<BR><BR>Ps. Can't wait to see if keeping Jester up on 5 people is really any hard.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me just say...  My old main was a monk, dinged 69 last night on my troub...  Monks are far far far more easier than a troub...  I would rate monks as one of the easiest classes to dps with.  The hard part of being a monk is learning to position mobs, sure anyone can do it, but properly and quickly is the problem.  Beyond that though, anyone can jump into a monk and be 90%+ efficient on their first time playing the char.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I cannot wait to start equipping my troub, then Rampagious can add me to the list [Removed for Content]...</P>

[Spider]

<P>heheh a well geared and aa'd troub that is played well is simply a thing of beauty <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P> <P>had much fun last night dropping 2 differnt lvl 50 wizzards and a lvl 50 pali last night on my 44 troub (not all at the same time of course ) </P>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div></div>I use piercers so...all I did was get as much + to pierce skill as possible...get as much dps from adormnets/ring as I could...and then max out spell proc gear and spam my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't do anything out of the ordinary :o<hr></blockquote>Ah so that's the hard part about troubs! Finding the loot...</div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR> I use piercers so...all I did was get as much + to pierce skill as possible...get as much dps from adormnets/ring as I could...and then max out spell proc gear and spam my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't do anything out of the ordinary :o<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ah so that's the hard part about troubs! Finding the loot...<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>if nothing else just go all mastercrafted melodic with caster jewlery and adorn as best u can </P> <P> </P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> abosloutly people tend to take the eazsy road and go for ealy <BR>> defined classes  and catagories </P> <P>I can't answer for everyone - only myself. I love classes that aren't well-defined, but bring a lot to the table.  Currently, my favorite is my necro. He can do good dps, he has heals that can be essential when a tank gets a big series of hits or the healer gets aggro, I have a small amount of crowd control, he has a pet to manage and in a pinch he can tank with his pet, and later he will get feign death and rez to add to his arsenal. The necro is easy to play well, but very difficult to play exceptionally well. When you do, you can often save a group.</P> <P>I used to love my troub. The buffs are great, but rather passive and the DPS was average, but the crowd control made up for it. Now CC is pretty much gone, and there just isn't a lot to do. I suppose it will be better with JC and PotM but no reason to wait that long when my necro gives me more right now.</P>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> <P>> abosloutly people tend to take the eazsy road and go for ealy <BR>> defined classes  and catagories </P> <P>I can't answer for everyone - only myself. I love classes that aren't well-defined, but bring a lot to the table.  Currently, my favorite is my necro. He can do good dps, he has heals that can be essential when a tank gets a big series of hits or the healer gets aggro, I have a small amount of crowd control, he has a pet to manage and in a pinch he can tank with his pet, and later he will get feign death and rez to add to his arsenal. The necro is easy to play well, but very difficult to play exceptionally well. When you do, you can often save a group.</P> <P>I used to love my troub. The buffs are great, but rather passive and the DPS was average, but the crowd control made up for it. Now CC is pretty much gone, and there just isn't a lot to do. I suppose it will be better with JC and PotM but no reason to wait that long when my necro gives me more right now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>see thats where ur wrong i cant cout the number of times changing group buffs on teh fly and that last second charm when a mob REALY hates the healer and any number of other situations have save and made the group </P> <P>hehehb est thing was when i was in a group and we were tearing through perma  and someone made a smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] comment about me not doing anything because i wasnt burning through my power ( with regen up and my power stealing spell and aa power sealing adornmetn lol </P> <P>so i said fine next basic mob ill just stand still and do nothing and turn off my power regen </P> <P>they barely survived lol and it was jsut one ^^^ mob not even a named and these are the same mobs we'd been killing in groups of 3 + </P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> <P>> abosloutly people tend to take the eazsy road and go for ealy <BR>> defined classes  and catagories </P> <P>I can't answer for everyone - only myself. I love classes that aren't well-defined, but bring a lot to the table.  Currently, my favorite is my necro. He can do good dps, he has heals that can be essential when a tank gets a big series of hits or the healer gets aggro, I have a small amount of crowd control, he has a pet to manage and in a pinch he can tank with his pet, and later he will get feign death and rez to add to his arsenal. The necro is easy to play well, but very difficult to play exceptionally well. When you do, you can often save a group.</P> <P>I used to love my troub. The buffs are great, but rather passive and the DPS was average, but the crowd control made up for it. Now CC is pretty much gone, and there just isn't a lot to do. I suppose it will be better with JC and PotM but no reason to wait that long when my necro gives me more right now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>see thats where ur wrong i cant cout the number of times changing group buffs on teh fly and that last second charm when a mob REALY hates the healer and any number of other situations have save and made the group </P> <P>hehehb est thing was when i was in a group and we were tearing through perma  and someone made a smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] comment about me not doing anything because i wasnt burning through my power ( with regen up and my power stealing spell and aa power sealing adornmetn lol </P> <P>so i said fine next basic mob ill just stand still and do nothing and turn off my power regen </P> <P>they barely survived lol and it was jsut one ^^^ mob not even a named and these are the same mobs we'd been killing in groups of 3 + </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hahaha, happend last night with me on a raid I attended...  I am in the guild my monk was first in way way back, but moved him on to greener pasteurs, anyways...  They could not figure out why they were doing so well with the mobs that used to whoop on them so badly (before they had me and a defiler raiding with them).  All night, me and the defiler were like wahoo see we do make a difference, and everyone was like naw naw, we have better gear now and our skill level has increased...  So during a fight when the defiler had to go afk (was a group of trash mobs), I decided to go afk also...  Let me just say, they barely survived, while previously we were beating them like red-headed step children...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, point is, our debuffs are nice, our + dmg to the group is nice, and I am falling in love with my Trouby...  I just need to make some macros for jester's cap, and all should be good, sucked having to manually do it last night lol, my first true raid on this toon.</DIV>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> see thats where ur wrong i cant cout the number of times changing <BR>> group buffs on teh fly and that last second charm when a mob REALY <BR>> hates the healer and any number of other situations have save and made the group </P> <P>I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I am glad you like your troubadour. I think you have it wrong on why it's the least-played class, though.</P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Kilnger]

Troubadours are an extremely complicated and involved class to play to its fullest. As much (or arguably) more then enchanters, troubadours are grounded in the realm of micromanagement and efficiency. The differences between a 'bad' troubadour and a 'good' troubadour are hardly noticeable. The difference between both of those and an 'amazing' troubadour is what really blows people away.Naysayers will claim that it troubadours are nothing but lackluster buffbots that are snoozers to play and add nothing to groups. Admittedly, this is like claiming that PUGs are the worst things imaginable and the equivalent of nuclear meltdowns in the grouping worlds and because of this, are incapable of being good. Work with me for a second.I regularly post 500-800 zonewide depending on the zone and the group I happen to be with, as well as how attentive/caring I am. I'm on a PVP server and am only limited to Qeynos classes, and to top it off I'm one of the people who runs a raiding organization (read: mostly pick up raid in the beginning). Sadly, I don't think I'll ever be hitting 1k zonewide DPS due to a lack of brigand, coercer, inquisitor, etc. Regardless of this, I can regularly split Vyemm, add substantial DPS to the magi in my group, and help out the rest of the raid at large with Jester's. For the record, I've been a troubadour since LU 13 and only once during the CC changes was I heavily demoralized (mostly due to life mishaps happening at the same time. Go go double whammies). I've specced every single AA path (including Coin Toss and Shield Focus), tested all sorts of builds (working on FAQ...too...distracted), and done everything I could in an effort to see what I could get out of the class and I came to one final solution:Troubadours can do everything. This is both our ultimate strength and ultimate weakness.Need a DPSer in your group? Adjust songs accordingly and use Jester's to make the DPS present hit harder and more often. Tank or damage mitigation? Bust out the mez, charm, cheap shot, stifles, bellow and even bring out a shield if you feel alive (I've personally tanked and held aggro throughout almost the entirety of Kaladim). Long range DPS? Check. Short range DPS? Check. Control? Check check. Group burst damage? Welcome to Precision of the Maestro or how I learned to stop worrying and love PP:TR trash mobs (I've broken 5k DPS on those buggers before, god it felt good). But wait you say, we cannot heal or ressurrect! We have nothing to stop a horrible turn for the worse from going to heck! A ballad blade, health song, and miracles with enough inventiveness will be our healing (mez lock anyone?). Ask your local healers to keep feathers flowing or just become a tinkerer if you'd like a chance to help ressurrect (not our job, but hey we can do it too!) As for things going to hell, with practice, insight, and luck a troubadour can stop a wipe cold (raid mobs notwithstanding) through the use of mez, jester's, charm, and good old fashioned kiting. But we still can't solo! A troubadour can kill almost anything and everything that is able to be mezzed IF they have enough patience (post lullaby, obviously). Pack a manastone, subjugation gear, health song, and as many non DoT procs as you can get your hands on. Honestly, I feel that the problems most troubadours have currently is Selo's (yea, that's a given) and a few songs that could use a little polishing. Namely Zander's (fix the bug), Lore's (older one mixed with the new one maybe?), Quiron's, and an equalization with the dirge's DPS buff. While more active buffs wouldn't hurt, the only problem that will create are people who whine that some of the more active buffs are worthless and not as good as others, and/or there's not enough time to use them all so only certain ones are used.On a final note, it is very possible to add 300 DPS zonewide to a group, but it will be fairly intricate and nitpicky. Cap yourself 5 seconds before each pull, precision for the casters while capped (spam debuffs while PotMing), coordinate with your casters to juggle cap on them in accordance to their timers, then pack int and stamina hex dolls (the more proc gear the better). If you do this for every single fight (or even every other fight) you will be adding 300 DPS to the group zonewide WHILE adding your own. Don't believe this? After doing that, turn off hate song, aria, power song, and don't even bother capping then just watch. The difference (especially in the hate song) is noticeable. <div></div>

[Cuz]

Could you elaborate on the difference between a good and great troub? I want to know what one does that other doesn't.Oh and another big problem that I have with troubs is that I pretty much haven't upgraded a spelll in 8 levels because the previous version at master 1 is better than the new one at adept 1. I'll have to sit down with my guild jeweler and see what Adept 3s are upgrades.<div></div>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>ALL Adept IIIs are upgrades from the previous master. And I'll be surprised if a few of those Adept Is aren't upgrades as well. Regardless of the numbers, any offensive spell/debuff will be resisted ALOT more by using a lower-level version.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the good vs great... i'll let Kilandara explain, cos i honestly can't think of anything other than charming/mezzing the right target, along with Jester's on the healer in tight spots...</DIV>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>I'm glad you enjoy the class. <FONT color=#ff0000>Do you have an explanation regarding why the troubadour has fallen until it is now the least-played class?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>Perhaps you are happy with the situation and enjoy being one of the few troubadours: Able to buy Masters relatively cheaply and wanted in raids. If so, you win - that's exactly what you have</FONT>.</P> <P>If you'd rather see a few more people play the class, perhaps you need to listen to those people you dismiss so easily.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>I know how to play the class</FONT>. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I have an idea. Because (like you) alot of people dont stick it out until level 70. the 40s and 50s see a huge drop in our DPS compared to other DPS classes. Wizards get Ice Comet. We get Mez. However, once you push past level 5X (where you are at) you get quite a few more toys to play with. The class becomes fun (try being the mezzser in Nizara. Unless you have a Coercer/Illusionist you are REQUIRED to mez (swash dont count) and you are therefore the ONLY thing keeping that group going. Also the class is alot more complex than most others. It actually requires some THINKING. something alot of people dont want to do (just go thome from work etc)</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>I disagree. We do not have this. what we have is no cheap masters (transmuters eat them) and the  only masters we do have are stupidly overpriced. But yes, i do like being a rare class. And i especially like to imagine the looks on those assassins faces when i kill them without getting hit by ANY melee combat arts (assuming they dont stun+decap me for more HP than i have.... then tell me i suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cos i couldnt dodge their non-positional one-shot ability)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Nothing against you personally, but until you hit 65 you DONT know how to play the class. You dont even have all your abilities. You may read about the ability, but unless you've used it, you dont know jack. I had all these brilliant plans for using Precision and jesters to completely destroy everything in PvP... and in theory i won every fight. In practise, Precision roots you and you get owned by anything with a dagger. I say again, you dont know what you're talking about until level 65 at the earliest.</FONT></P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P><FONT color=#ff0000>>I have an idea. Because (like you) alot of people dont stick it out until<BR>>level 70. the 40s and 50s see a huge drop in our DPS compared to<BR>>other DPS classes. Wizards get Ice Comet. We get Mez. However,<BR>>once you push past level 5X (where you are at) you get quite a few<BR>>more toys to play with. The class becomes fun (try being the mezzser<BR>>in Nizara. Unless you have a Coercer/Illusionist you are REQUIRED<BR>>to mez (swash dont count) and you are therefore the ONLY thing<BR>>keeping that group going. </FONT></P> <P>You might be partially right on that. However, with my necro, I don't have to wait until 70 to have a complicated, useful class. It is true that the troub will get more spells as he goes to 70 and possibly become fun. However, the necro will ALSO get more spells as he goes to 70 and be even more fun than it is already.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>>Also the class is alot more complex than most others. It actually requires<BR>>some THINKING. something alot of people dont want to do (just go thome<BR>>from work etc)</FONT></P> <P>I think you are selling the other classes short, or being overly partial to your troub. Many classes in this game require thinking to play. The necro is a great one for a quick-thinking player.<FONT color=#6633ff size=1></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>>Nothing against you personally, but until you hit 65 you DONT know how to play the class. </FONT></P> <P>I do know how to play the class. I just don't know how to play the class at 65. However, the game does not start at 70, it starts at 1. If a class is boring to play from 1-60, it's going to have problems.</P>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Troubadours are an extremely complicated and involved class to play to its fullest. As much (or arguably) more then enchanters, troubadours are grounded in the realm of micromanagement and efficiency. The differences between a 'bad' troubadour and a 'good' troubadour are hardly noticeable. The difference between both of those and an 'amazing' troubadour is what really blows people away.<BR><BR>Naysayers will claim that it troubadours are nothing but lackluster buffbots that are snoozers to play and add nothing to groups. Admittedly, this is like claiming that PUGs are the worst things imaginable and the equivalent of nuclear meltdowns in the grouping worlds and because of this, are incapable of being good. Work with me for a second.<BR><BR>I regularly post 500-800 zonewide depending on the zone and the group I happen to be with, as well as how attentive/caring I am. I'm on a PVP server and am only limited to Qeynos classes, and to top it off I'm one of the people who runs a raiding organization (read: mostly pick up raid in the beginning). Sadly, I don't think I'll ever be hitting 1k zonewide DPS due to a lack of brigand, coercer, inquisitor, etc. Regardless of this, I can regularly split Vyemm, add substantial DPS to the magi in my group, and help out the rest of the raid at large with Jester's. For the record, I've been a troubadour since LU 13 and only once during the CC changes was I heavily demoralized (mostly due to life mishaps happening at the same time. Go go double whammies). I've specced every single AA path (including Coin Toss and Shield Focus), tested all sorts of builds (working on FAQ...too...distracted), and done everything I could in an effort to see what I could get out of the class and I came to one final solution:<BR><BR>Troubadours can do everything. This is both our ultimate strength and ultimate weakness.<BR><BR>Need a DPSer in your group? Adjust songs accordingly and use Jester's to make the DPS present hit harder and more often. Tank or damage mitigation? Bust out the mez, charm, cheap shot, stifles, bellow and even bring out a shield if you feel alive (I've personally tanked and held aggro throughout almost the entirety of Kaladim). Long range DPS? Check. Short range DPS? Check. Control? Check check. Group burst damage? Welcome to Precision of the Maestro or how I learned to stop worrying and love PP:TR trash mobs (I've broken 5k DPS on those buggers before, god it felt good). <BR><BR>But wait you say, we cannot heal or ressurrect! We have nothing to stop a horrible turn for the worse from going to heck! A ballad blade, health song, and miracles with enough inventiveness will be our healing (mez lock anyone?). Ask your local healers to keep feathers flowing or just become a tinkerer if you'd like a chance to help ressurrect (not our job, but hey we can do it too!) As for things going to hell, with practice, insight, and luck a troubadour can stop a wipe cold (raid mobs notwithstanding) through the use of mez, jester's, charm, and good old fashioned kiting. <BR><BR>But we still can't solo! A troubadour can kill almost anything and everything that is able to be mezzed IF they have enough patience (post lullaby, obviously). Pack a manastone, subjugation gear, health song, and as many non DoT procs as you can get your hands on. <BR><BR>Honestly, I feel that the problems most troubadours have currently is Selo's (yea, that's a given) and a few songs that could use a little polishing. Namely Zander's (fix the bug), Lore's (older one mixed with the new one maybe?), Quiron's, and an equalization with the dirge's DPS buff. While more active buffs wouldn't hurt, the only problem that will create are people who whine that some of the more active buffs are worthless and not as good as others, and/or there's not enough time to use them all so only certain ones are used.<BR><BR>On a final note, it is very possible to add 300 DPS zonewide to a group, but it will be fairly intricate and nitpicky. Cap yourself 5 seconds before each pull, precision for the casters while capped (spam debuffs while PotMing), coordinate with your casters to juggle cap on them in accordance to their timers, then pack int and stamina hex dolls (the more proc gear the better). If you do this for every single fight (or even every other fight) you will be adding 300 DPS to the group zonewide WHILE adding your own. Don't believe this? After doing that, turn off hate song, aria, power song, and don't even bother capping then just watch. The difference (especially in the hate song) is noticeable. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>outstanding post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kilnger]

A good troubadour will stumble along, buff his group, and do between substandard and average DPS. They will be able to mez lock two mobs on occasion, keep Jester's on a few people, and create an attack cycle.A great troubadour will buff their group, do average to above average DPS, keep the mob debuffed, prioritize (and talk to those who will receive) Jester's and maximize it's efficiency, evolve an attack cycle to fit the moment, be capable of keeping two to three mobs under control, and be able to keep the situation from going from bad to worse by going so far as to swap out songs if the situation requires it.The biggest difference between good and great can be seen in group situations where other classes are 'required' by everyone and their mother otherwise something is impossible. For example, solo mezzing in Nizara and being able to keep three mobs busy/distracted or more. It's something that has to be seen and not explained.<div></div>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kilnger wrote:A good troubadour will stumble along, buff his group, and do between substandard and average DPS. They will be able to mez lock two mobs on occasion, keep Jester's on a few people, and create an attack cycle.A great troubadour will buff their group, do average to above average DPS, keep the mob debuffed, prioritize (and talk to those who will receive) Jester's and maximize it's efficiency, evolve an attack cycle to fit the moment, be capable of keeping two to three mobs under control, and be able to keep the situation from going from bad to worse by going so far as to swap out songs if the situation requires it.The biggest difference between good and great can be seen in group situations where other classes are 'required' by everyone and their mother otherwise something is impossible. For example, solo mezzing in Nizara and being able to keep three mobs busy/distracted or more. It's something that has to be seen and not explained.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't have jester's cap, and I can only mezz 2 mobs (I only have our first mezz) , the DPS you'll have to be a bit more precise. You're saying a great troub does more damage then a good one. It's sort of a gimme. How would a great troub do more? Also explain "evolve an attack cycle to fit the moment".Currently the only "neet" thing I do is if we're facing a group of mobs I'll use PotM all our bebuffs, bellows, cast Alin's, while the AOE is queing, I'll cancel all the debuffs and recast them all after the aoe is cast.I'm wondering if others use other strats like that.</div>

[Kilnger]

Evolving an attack cycle could be as simple as determining efficiency in terms of damage (for example, AoEing when only X amount of mobs are available), or knowing what abilities to use with what circumstances or effects are up (divine recovery, cacophany, etc) instead of just hitting the same attacks in the same order over and over. This may actually sound like a given, but you would be surprised as to how many players (not even just troubadours) do nothing but hit the same five or six attacks over and over again regardless of the circumstances until hell freezes over.Best example: How many people have seen a caster throw out a dumbfire/temp pet after a raid leader says no dumbfire/temp pets. I know everyone who's raided has. That's an example of someone that will do the same attack cycle over and over again oblivious to the situation =P (that, and they're not listening).<div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Evolving an attack cycle could be as simple as determining efficiency in terms of damage (for example, AoEing when only X amount of mobs are available), or knowing what abilities to use with what circumstances or effects are up (divine recovery, cacophany, etc) instead of just hitting the same attacks in the same order over and over. This may actually sound like a given, but you would be surprised as to how many players (not even just troubadours) do nothing but hit the same five or six attacks over and over again regardless of the circumstances until hell freezes over.<BR><BR>Best example: How many people have seen a caster throw out a dumbfire/temp pet after a raid leader says no dumbfire/temp pets. I know everyone who's raided has. That's an example of someone that will do the same attack cycle over and over again oblivious to the situation =P (that, and they're not listening).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>absoloutly u need to change your attack paterns depending on the situation , are you in an enclosed area with a lot of agro ? then dont plan on kiting </P> <P>but if ur in a nice open space you can refocus your attacks on mostly ranged skills especialy your cast on the runs and debuffs and of course snare </P> <P>and if somethings got a high mental resist u might focus and make sure your using your few skills that do only melee damage as well as debuffing mental as much as possible and making sure you auto attack as much as u can </P>

[Cuz]

Although good advice, I still think that's the difference between a borederline bad troub and a good one. Nothing there is illuminating me on how to get better.<div></div>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>/agree Jenoy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have picked up one piece of advice in these threads I look forward to trying: The suggestion to charm the mob you want to mez first. Can you cast the mez on a charmed mob, or do you need to wait until the charm breaks? Don't take my troub out much, or I would already know by now.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>mbolme wrote:<div>/agree Jenoy</div> <div> </div> <div>However, I have picked up one piece of advice in these threads I look forward to trying: The suggestion to charm the mob you want to mez first. Can you cast the mez on a charmed mob, or do you need to wait until the charm breaks? Don't take my troub out much, or I would already know by now.</div><hr></blockquote>You need to wait for it to break, or cancel it yourself. And no you can't cue it and hope to cancel the charm right before the mez hits. You can't target a charmed mob with any hostile action. </div>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>My usual trick is to charm the mob, pull it AWAY from my group (usually a zerker, warlock, warden, swash combo)  then  break charm myself, cheap-shot it and cast mez straight away. Yes you will get hit, but only once (assuming no resist) and now the mob is happily OUT of range for the blue AEs, and immune to the green ones. no mez breaks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, this is coming from a torub who took both the cheap-shot, charm and mez AAs to 5 points each. Those combined with Dove song and i havent seen a resist on anything less than level 74s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ofcourse to do this, you have to stop hitting things, and you have to stop debuffing things... you can usually just charm, sick pet, and have the other mob dead before charm breaks. My zerker tank has gotten VERY good at taking agro when a charm breaks, i stun, he taunts and off we go. It's pretty slick.</DIV>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Ofcourse to do this, you have to stop hitting things, and you have <BR>> to stop debuffing things... you can usually just charm, sick pet, and <BR>> have the other mob dead before charm breaks. </P> <P>Hehe - not at my level and without AAs. Using the charm to pull the mob away is a great idea, but by the time it gets it me, it will probably be about ready to break anyway.</P>

[Jaimster]

Does charm last longer in PvP?

[Kilnger]

Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.<div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't really have any issues with charm the way it is now (a bit longer would be nice since it was so drastically reduced but I always defended it as being useful after the big nerfs). I was just curious about whether there was a difference between PvE and PvP<BR>

[Kilnger]

Doesn't always last the full duration in PVP because of higher resists (usually) and is a bit harder to land. Other then that, if memory serves correctly the two are virtually identical.<div></div>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.</DIV> <DIV><BR>All you level 70 guys need to remember that people start at level 1. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>14 seconds may be "a LONG time" but those troubs getting an adept 1 charm at level 20 will be excused if they give up on the class entirely.</DIV><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

[Blakeavon]

<div>um no its not, well compared to the what 8mins it was dropped from. its not enough to be of real use to soloers other than buying us some time. yes its good in KoS mobs but to EoF mobs hit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and take far longer to kill. not all of us are raiders who have all this uber gear.  its like they couldnt decide whether to remove the charm altogether. someone must have been screaming nerf for it be dropped by so much, the devs realised how much we cried last time our charm was made 5 slots to cast, then removed altogether for many months.... so they thought  lets just make it 14secs thats half the time it takes to fight one solo mob (in EoF). what is it with this one spell that gets the devs so concerned they cant make up their mind?personally it has to do with PvP (which according to the propaganda before release, was never going to affect our normal servers GROAN)if it a problem on this servers get rid of it there and give us a useful version back <blockquote><hr>Kilnger wrote:Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blakeavon wrote:<BR> <DIV>um no its not, well compared to the what 8mins it was dropped from. its not enough to be of real use to soloers other than buying us some time. yes its good in KoS mobs but to EoF mobs hit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and take far longer to kill. not all of us are raiders who have all this uber gear.  its like they couldnt decide whether to remove the charm altogether. someone must have been screaming nerf for it be dropped by so much, the devs realised how much we cried last time our charm was made 5 slots to cast, then removed altogether for many months.... so they thought  lets just make it 14secs thats half the time it takes to fight one solo mob (in EoF). what is it with this one spell that gets the devs so concerned they cant make up their mind?<BR><BR>personally it has to do with PvP (which according to the propaganda before release, was never going to affect our normal servers GROAN)<BR>if it a problem on this servers get rid of it there and give us a useful version back <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>for pvp its the same time frame the only differance is that its teh only charm in the game that can charm someone of the opposite faction AND make them attakc there own faction </P> <P> </P> <P>as for its change it had nothign to do with pvp so dont go blaming it on that</P> <P>all skills in pvp have a normal version and a pvp version they wouldnt nerf or change somethign alltogether becaus of overpowering pvp they jsut give the pvp version different stats or effects or reduced usefullness</P>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Blakeavon wrote: <div>um no its not, well compared to the what 8mins it was dropped from. its not enough to be of real use to soloers other than buying us some time. yes its good in KoS mobs but to EoF mobs hit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and take far longer to kill. not all of us are raiders who have all this uber gear.  its like they couldnt decide whether to remove the charm altogether. someone must have been screaming nerf for it be dropped by so much, the devs realised how much we cried last time our charm was made 5 slots to cast, then removed altogether for many months.... so they thought  lets just make it 14secs thats half the time it takes to fight one solo mob (in EoF). what is it with this one spell that gets the devs so concerned they cant make up their mind?personally it has to do with PvP (which according to the propaganda before release, was never going to affect our normal servers GROAN)if it a problem on this servers get rid of it there and give us a useful version back <blockquote> <hr> Kilnger wrote:Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">for pvp its the same time frame the only differance is that </font>its teh only charm in the game that can charm someone of the opposite faction AND make them attakc there own faction</font> </p> <p>as for its change it had nothign to do with pvp so dont go blaming it on that</p> <p>all skills in pvp have a normal version and a pvp version they wouldnt nerf or change somethign alltogether becaus of overpowering pvp they jsut give the pvp version different stats or effects or reduced usefullness</p><hr></blockquote>That right there tells me that yes, it was changed for PvP purposes. And that whole "PvP won't have any impact on PvE" has come to be nothing more than a politician's promise.</div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blakeavon wrote:<BR> <DIV>um no its not, well compared to the what 8mins it was dropped from. its not enough to be of real use to soloers other than buying us some time. yes its good in KoS mobs but to EoF mobs hit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and take far longer to kill. not all of us are raiders who have all this uber gear.  its like they couldnt decide whether to remove the charm altogether. someone must have been screaming nerf for it be dropped by so much, the devs realised how much we cried last time our charm was made 5 slots to cast, then removed altogether for many months.... so they thought  lets just make it 14secs thats half the time it takes to fight one solo mob (in EoF). what is it with this one spell that gets the devs so concerned they cant make up their mind?<BR><BR>personally it has to do with PvP (which according to the propaganda before release, was never going to affect our normal servers GROAN)<BR>if it a problem on this servers get rid of it there and give us a useful version back <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Nope. 14 seconds is a LONG time though if you think about it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>for pvp its the same time frame the only differance is that </FONT>its teh only charm in the game that can charm someone of the opposite faction AND make them attakc there own faction</FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P>as for its change it had nothign to do with pvp so dont go blaming it on that</P> <P>all skills in pvp have a normal version and a pvp version they wouldnt nerf or change somethign alltogether becaus of overpowering pvp they jsut give the pvp version different stats or effects or reduced usefullness</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That right there tells me that yes, it was changed for PvP purposes. And that whole "PvP won't have any impact on PvE" has come to be nothing more than a politician's promise.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>no charm as a whole was changed  in pvp ( as in its pvp effect only was changed ) but the troubs charm being so short was left alone </P> <P> </P> <P>rember all skills on a pvp server have double functions </P> <P>the pve version and the pvp version witht eh pvp version adjusted for pvp and the pve version left alone </P> <P>if the charm ws unbalanced in pvp they would simply modify the pvp function of it not the charm as a whole  </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>if the charm ws unbalanced in pvp they would simply modify the pvp function of it not the charm as a whole  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We'll just have to say you have a bit more faith in the devs then I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>if the charm ws unbalanced in pvp they would simply modify the pvp function of it not the charm as a whole  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We'll just have to say you have a bit more faith in the devs then I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>its nto about faith its about simplicity </P> <P>they already have the code to alter spells for pvp only </P> <P>so if somethings a problem in pvp its easier to change it for pvp only than it is to change it for the game as a whole <BR></P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

It's my belief that charm and mez were nerfed in an attempt to boost the usefulness and popularity of illusionists and coercers. The wisdom of nerfing the third-least-played class to help the first- and second-least-played is suspect IMO, but it worked. We are now the least-played.

[Kilnger]

Charm was not changed due to PVP. As a matter of fact, charm did -not- work for PVP for a good amount of time even after the change (if I remember) and now the only difference between PVE and PVP is you cannot order players to attack (They'll just 'refuse').<div></div>

[Pogopuschel]

Seen a few Troubadour parses that are simply inexpliquable to me in this very thread. The highest I have ever parsed is 960 on trash mobs in Lyceum. I have relic or fabled equipment, 80% of T6/T7 Masters, and there is not a single second when I don't use a combat art.I have not seen a single, not a SINGLE advice or comment on what some groups or people do differently (referring to T7 raid situations specifically).Let's take out wipes and all that, zone-wide I'd call 650 a good day for me. I couldn't even imagine what else there is to improve, and I refuse to believe it's all based on buffs from other group's members.I use the following songs etc by default:- Bria's- Raxxyl's (because STA is the best mitigation <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )- Daeli's- Alin's- AriaAA wise I have the following up at all times: (don't know the names off the top of my head)- enhanced crit chance- increased casting speed- increased in- and out-of combat movement- enhanced spell range (+5)I was grouped with- warlock- fury- wizard- necro- (empty space, usually a pally these days)It's not like we haven't tried stuff...Does anyone care to enlighten me/us?

[Kilnger]

Off the top of my head, buffs do add a bit, as do debuffs (in terms of things like dispatch, spurn, etc). Capping yourself at the start or before a fight helps, as will your equipment depending on what you do. For example, having significant proc gear will up your overall DPS if you utilize all your spells constantly. It is very possible between all your spells and CAs to use them all with a fairly small break while refreshing. Snaring (mental debuff) is another big one and can mean a bit if your snare is off while you dump your bigger hits. ALYWAYS keep Kian's running except under extreme circumstances.Spell proc gear is generally the way to go for DPS because your casters will typically give you melee procs to fill the void. Insist on agitate if you run with a fury (unless a warrior/tank in your group can better be suited for it) and just try your hardest to keep it going. Getting proc gear that works cohesively could do some things to your DPS as well. For example, BCG works well with Orb of the Invoker and Finger Bone Manacles. Constantly cast, (short of Alin's except on three or more mobs, or if you have tons of spell procs) and keep your CAs cycling. Prioritize your abilities, as some will refresh before others (Eli's I'm looking at you) and could do significantly more damage over time.Daeli's could be swapped for haste (it'd help the other non caster and the necro pet) or dove's (yes, it makes a bigger difference then it seems). Get two similar weapons (two daggers, two swords, etc) and then get as much +slashing as you can. Zhi'feng's is a good bracer to have, for example, for slashers (or just all around really). The more +attack you have for your particular weapon the more damage you will do overall. This is also another good reason to at least have some gear with +disruption.<div></div>On average, I run around 650ish to around 800/900 depending on what/how many mobs they are. I can only raid with Qeynosians, so I have no dispatch/devitalize, no coercer DPS buff, and it's a raid organization (read: not raid guild) so half the time I have a group full of wizards (I get lucky to get a warlock, hell will freeze over when I get a conj/illusionist). Get as much +haste/DPS as you can get your grubby little hands on as it will ALL add up in the end. The vast majority of your damage will probably be shrill, eli's, auto attack, and Kian's. If you manage to get near the 100 mark or pass it on both haste and DPS, and you have semi decent weapons, you will very easily WRECK things and it's more then likely your auto attack alone will be up near the 400-600 mark (which is why allegro is very, very important). The ultimate truth is that buffs and debuffs add up. As little as any specific buff/debuff may be, it can create a huge difference in your overall performance. Throwing out your bigger hits at opportune times while the mob is debuffed to hell and back is leaps and bounds different then at the beginning. There's really no 'magic' secret to doing awesome DPS, it's really a mixture of timing, know how, gear, and constant attacking.

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>I think the question is also how much you are willing to compromise the overall raid dps in favor of your own personal dps. There are a few things you can do to raise your own personal dps, which will generally not help the raid:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- maneuver yourself into a group, where dps or haste or agitate is put on you, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- run Daeli's instead of a group buff</DIV> <DIV>- always run Raxxyl's and Haste buff, even if you are in a caster only group</DIV> <DIV>- give yourself Jester's Cap, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- cast and cancel all debuffs repeatedly - including Zander's, which actually buffs the mobs - while POTM is running</DIV> <DIV>- start your own heroic opportunities and turn all others to one's you profit from, always make sure you finish a heroic opportunity</DIV> <DIV>- don't waste your time offensively debuffing the mob </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or you could do your job right.</DIV>

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynnigig wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think the question is also how much you are willing to compromise the overall raid dps in favor of your own personal dps. There are a few things you can do to raise your own personal dps, which will generally not help the raid:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- maneuver yourself into a group, where dps or haste or agitate is put on you, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- run Daeli's instead of a group buff</DIV> <DIV>- always run Raxxyl's and Haste buff, even if you are in a caster only group</DIV> <DIV>- give yourself Jester's Cap, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- cast and cancel all debuffs repeatedly - including Zander's, which actually buffs the mobs - while POTM is running</DIV> <DIV>- start your own heroic opportunities and turn all others to one's you profit from, always make sure you finish a heroic opportunity</DIV> <DIV>- don't waste your time offensively debuffing the mob </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or you could do your job right.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Running self buff will do way more than any buff you could replace it with would...  at least with how I buff...  Haste buff is only logical if you are in a mostly melee class group...  also with jester's cap you could give it to yourself, and high dps classes...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kilnger]

Self buff is not an overly selfish buff because it does add damage to aria and precision. Haste buff can also be beneficial to a caster group because the pet will be affected as well. There's usually better songs to run then Daelis' though."High DPS" class is extremely debatable, especially with putting jester's cap on because the honest truth is most people don't know how Jester's Cap will affect them or help them. Even worse, you may cause that person to go over the top and pull hate when they very well shouldn't be. People to cap would be those that would help in the moment, ranging from a really good DPS that knows what they're doing to a healer or tank when the excrement has hit the oscillating unit. There's been times where I've not capped the highest DPSer in my raid because if I did, he'd inevitably pull aggro and die. So when he heard the tinkle, he just stopped DPSing to balance himself out.A troubadour capping themselves to improve the RAID'S DPS by adding 200+ damage to himself for 30 seconds is in no way selfish or greedy, especially when putting it on someone else may cause aggro to be drawn and unneeded deaths to happen. The same can also be said to put it on people who are lower DPS (other bards, chanters, etc) because they will gain full use of it and raise the raid's DPS due to their own personal one.The only time to really use it on the high DPS classes is if you coordinate timers with them. Tell each and every class (or certain people) that when they want to use certain timers or abilities, send you a tell and you then cap them and use it to its fullest. Tossing it around willy nilly does add something, yes, but putting it on people who can constantly use it will benefit more then putting it on the ones that 'might' use it. <div></div>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Self buff is not an overly selfish buff because it does add damage to aria and precision. Haste buff can also be beneficial to a caster group because the pet will be affected as well. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty sure Aria is based off the caster's INT, not ours. I know changing your INT changed the numbers shown, but im almost certain that its only YOUR numbers that are changing... try this with a nekid caster some time, see what aria procs for. I agree with the rest of it though.<BR>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Self buff is not an overly selfish buff because it does add damage to aria and precision. Haste buff can also be beneficial to a caster group because the pet will be affected as well. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty sure Aria is based off the caster's INT, not ours. I know changing your INT changed the numbers shown, but im almost certain that its only YOUR numbers that are changing... try this with a nekid caster some time, see what aria procs for. I agree with the rest of it though.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>im pretty sure your int affects the groups aria damage...if not ive been seriously deluded for too long <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VericSauvari wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilnger wrote:<BR>Self buff is not an overly selfish buff because it does add damage to aria and precision. Haste buff can also be beneficial to a caster group because the pet will be affected as well. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty sure Aria is based off the caster's INT, not ours. I know changing your INT changed the numbers shown, but im almost certain that its only YOUR numbers that are changing... try this with a nekid caster some time, see what aria procs for. I agree with the rest of it though.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>im pretty sure your int affects the groups aria damage...if not ive been seriously deluded for too long <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Both PotM and Aria are based on the caster's intelligence.  Just check out a zonewide parse some time of people in your group.  You'll see wide damage variations which would not exist if it were based solely on one person's int.</P> <P> </P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynnigig wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think the question is also how much you are willing to compromise the overall raid dps in favor of your own personal dps. There are a few things you can do to raise your own personal dps, which will generally not help the raid:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- maneuver yourself into a group, where dps or haste or agitate is put on you, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- run Daeli's instead of a group buff</DIV> <DIV>- always run Raxxyl's and Haste buff, even if you are in a caster only group</DIV> <DIV>- give yourself Jester's Cap, instead of a high dps class</DIV> <DIV>- cast and cancel all debuffs repeatedly - including Zander's, which actually buffs the mobs - while POTM is running</DIV> <DIV>- start your own heroic opportunities and turn all others to one's you profit from, always make sure you finish a heroic opportunity</DIV> <DIV>- don't waste your time offensively debuffing the mob </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or you could do your job right.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Last night I zonewided 969 dps (i was #5 on the list) in Labs w/ about 3 groups and no brigand.</P> <P>I was in a decent setup for group (swash, assassin, wizzie, fury, troub, dirge (2boxed)). - group zonewided about 6-6.5k dps</P> <P>I ran aria, alins, daeli's, dove song, raxxyl's - my int was around 800+</P> <P>Dirge ran his str/agi buff (str didn't stack, but agi helped us for power), melee proc, +melee skills, dps buff, bria's</P> <P>I had apply poison and phoenixblade.</P> <P>I used 1 blessing (+dmg on all spells - got about half of it before we died and it was lost) and 1 miracle (sun sphere - kinda sucked)</P> <P> </P> <P>Things that have helped me so much with dps follow:</P> <P>-use high duration melee weap in your main hand (grinning dirk (i don't have) or wurmslayer)</P> <P>-debuff mental every chance you get</P> <P>-alternate spells and melee-based attacks focusing on Eli's, then Shrill</P> <P>-only use alin's or PotM on encounters of 3+ (my dps actually drops when I use PotM, but it helps the other casters).</P> <P>-jesters the brigand (i didn't have one last night) whenever you can and have them wait to cast their debuffs until they see your macro </P> <P>-use spell proc gear when possible (including sol ro cloak)</P> <P>-increase int as much as possible, but don't forget about your str</P> <P>-use +dps adorns where you can (i'm at +30 dps with amulet of the forsworn, moa and judicious sheath)</P> <P>-to a lesser extent increase melee skills</P> <P> </P> <P>In addition to dps, I also jesters the tank and healers on tough encounters and a few dps classes once aggro is established on the tank.  I also keep my debuffs up when needed (for trash, I'll typically just keep Kian's up - should keep parity between the trash and named and not attack debuffing trash makes the two more similar)</P> <P>I'm specced wis/str to the end abilities for KoS AA</P> <P>I have the sonics line (5 shrill, 5 eli's, 3 alin's, 3 PotM, 1 interference), 5 in Aria, 3 in bria's, 3 in quiron's for EoF AA.</P>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> It's my belief that charm and mez were nerfed in an attempt to boost the usefulness and popularity of illusionists and coercers. The wisdom of nerfing the third-least-played class to help the first- and second-least-played is suspect IMO, but it worked. We are now the least-played.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>it works just fine in pvp u just cant order the attck they automaticaly attack whoever your attacking </P> <P> </P>

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <P>it works just fine in pvp u just cant order the attck they automaticaly attack <STRIKE>whoever your attacking</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ff0000>whoever attacks you</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Fixed

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mildavyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <P>it works just fine in pvp u just cant order the attck they automaticaly attack <STRIKE>whoever your attacking</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ff0000>whoever attacks you</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Fixed<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no they auto attack whoever u attack right after charming them i do it all the time 

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>Not for me they don't. I had a mob on me and the guy i charmed went straight for it, even though i had his healer buddy targeted.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mildavyn wrote:<div>Not for me they don't. I had a mob on me and the guy i charmed went straight for it, even though i had his healer buddy targeted.</div><hr></blockquote>That's how it used to work in PVE too. Except way longer.</div>