Definition of a forum and the wailings of one Troubadour

[CelandineStar]

Forum:  a place of assembly for the people to discuss items of public interest.Apparently, these particular forums are not for expressing any opinions, because every time a troub does so, we are either locked or deleted.  Awesome.  Let's stick to facts then.Fact:Most if not all Troubadours are frustrated to the point of quitting the game because we feel that our class is rapidly becoming useless.  No one really knows what we're supposed to be anymore, because every one of our abilities is improved upon by another class.Fact:There are several very nice threads about what can be done to improve the class, and to date not one of these ideas has been implemented.Fact:The last time a developer posted on the troubadour forum was in May, when we were told that "Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24."  Oh, indeed they were not.  I rather wish they had been.So how does a thread complaining about the lack of response from the developers constitute a violation of forum rules, no matter how snarky or demanding it is?  And how does deleting the thread help the situation?  This is incredibly frustrating to say the least.  I've been playing my Troub for two years now, ever since launch.  I've been through all the ups and downs and I've threatened to quit many times.  But like the fool that I am, I've hung in there.  I like the idea of being a bard, but I feel like the devs just look at our little forum and giggle to themselves.  I think they're hoping that if they keep chopping off bits of us soon we will all give up and go quietly and they can get rid of us once and for all.Isn't that a valid enough concern?Don't we deserve a reply instead of another locked thread?Please,  someone say something constructive to us.  Tell us you hate the class and you're thinking of deleting it altogether.  Tell us you just hired some fabulous new person who's going to work on nothing but our class.  Tell us you have no idea what to do about anything but that you know there's a problem.  There are still many of us who love our toons and we're waiting for just the briefest glance in our direction to make it worth coughing up another month's rent around here.And for the love of Tunare, let us speak our minds.  We don't demand that other classes be nerfed, and we don't scream obscenities at each other.  For the most part we're articulate and thoughtful when we post.  Maybe the problem is that we *do* speak the truth, and it hits a little too close to home for some.  We are bards, after all, telling the story is what we're good at.Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubador of Mistmoore<div></div>

[thorvang]

hm, i tried to "reopen" the locked thread and i got deleted...<hr>Please refrain from reopening locked threads. If we'd wanted discussion to continue, it wouldn't have been locked in the first place.<hr>i still don't get why it has been locked. we troub's crave for attention for like what, a year now? and yet all we get is some new AAs of uselessness and some more nerfs. don't you expect us to get a little upset and start insulting the ones in charge for our class? you can't behave nice forever...

[Echgar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CelandineStar wrote:And for the love of Tunare, let us speak our minds.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I've dealt with a few of these threads today.  I understand that some of you are frustrated, but frustration does not equate with a license to rant, insult others, and violate other <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">forum rules</a>.The reason I quoted what I did is so I could reference my favorite quote from the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">Forum Rules of Conduct</a>:<blockquote>In general, you may post any material written in a courteous and mature manner, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is constructive and appropriate for all those capable of reading the forum.</blockquote>Posting a thread calling for developers to be fired is neither courteous or mature.For all of you that feel the developers never visit this forum, I will let you in on a little secret.  I found out about two of the threads I have moderated here today from ... a developer (who was browsing this forum and reading your threads). <span>:smileyhappy:While you may feel you aren't getting enough attention to your issues, please do not assume the developers are unaware.  They may not always reply, but they do read a lot and greatly appreciate your <i>constructive</i> discussions.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Echgar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 PM</span>

[CelandineStar]

<div></div>Well, pardon me if that doesn't make me feel much better.  "They're here, they just think you're unworthy of a response unless they don't like your post!"Fabulous.I understand that you have to be fair and upbeat and even-handed, but frankly, I can't do that.  I've spent a lot of time on my character and put a lot of money into this game only to be told to put up and shut up every time there's an update that yanks yet another piece from our class.  This latest one, with an aa that <i>graciously</i> gives us back our power regen after they TAKE IT AWAY FROM US is a prime example.  How in the world am I supposed know that a dev is reading our forums when they let things like this happen to an already miserable class?Assuming, for one blessed moment, that I can control my cynicism and believe that the devs aren't reading our boards just to find things to shut down or scoff at, I offer this: devs, if you have questions about the threads Troubs have started or the issues we've raised, contact me.  I agree with the great majority of them and would be glad to talk to you about how to balance a class that I feel like I know inside and out.  I bet a lot of others on this board would offer up their time as well - they've already taken the time to give you seven pages of ideas here and another handful of pages worth in the testing feedback.  We care about the class.  We care about the game.  I'd waste *hours* giving someone my thoughts and opinions if I thought they were listening.  I would ignore <i>glowies</i> if I could get someone to tell me they cared about our class.Troubs are not the only ones who think they're being ignored, either, and if the devs are reading the boards then they know it as well as I do.  We  just happen to be getting to the point where we're fed up, and getting banned from the forums doesn't seem like a harsh punishment in comparison to what we've been through so far.Seriously.  /tell Alexis.~Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubadour of MistmooreP.S. The little dig about <i>constructive</i> feedback was unnecessary.  The Troub community has given all the <i>constructive</i> criticism they can possibly give, and it doesn't seem to be working.  While I agree that suggesting someone be fired is neither courteous nor mature, I can't say I think it was unwarranted.  Many Troubs have cancelled their accounts, if the boards are anything to go by.  Where I work, losing the company money usually has negative effects on employment, but I'd rather see something get fixed than someone get fired ANY day.<div></div><p>Message Edited by CelandineStar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Echgar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CelandineStar wrote:<BR><BR>And for the love of Tunare, let us speak our minds.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I've dealt with a few of these threads today.  I understand that some of you are frustrated, but frustration does not equate with a license to rant, insult others, and violate other <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>forum rules</A>.<BR><BR>The reason I quoted what I did is so I could reference my favorite quote from the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum Rules of Conduct</A>:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>In general, you may post any material written in a courteous and mature manner, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is constructive and appropriate for all those capable of reading the forum.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Posting a thread calling for developers to be fired is neither courteous or mature.<BR><BR>For all of you that feel the developers never visit this forum, I will let you in on a little secret.  I found out about two of the threads I have moderated here today from ... a developer (who was browsing this forum and reading your threads). <SPAN>:smileyhappy:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>While you may feel you aren't getting enough attention to your issues, please do not assume the developers are unaware.  They may not always reply, but they do read a lot and greatly appreciate your <I>constructive</I> discussions.</FONT><BR><BR></SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Echgar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Could you... oh I don't know... ask him or her to post something? <BR>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Echgar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CelandineStar wrote:<BR><BR>And for the love of Tunare, let us speak our minds.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>For all of you that feel the developers never visit this forum, I will let you in on a little secret.  I found out about two of the threads I have moderated here today from ... a developer (who was browsing this forum and reading your threads). <SPAN>:smileyhappy:<BR><BR><STRONG>While you may feel you aren't getting enough attention to your issues, please do not assume the developers are unaware.  They may not always reply, but they do read a lot and greatly appreciate your <I>constructive</I> discussions.</STRONG><BR><BR></SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Echgar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know Ech, I'd actually hope that they weren't reading our forums due to the complete lack of respect they give the people playing the troubadour class.  Between spells not scaling between an entire tier, broken mechanics and severe nerfs that they have levied against us, I'd actually prefer an "oh, my bad guys, yeah, we'll look at your class".  </P> <P>As someone relatively close to the Devs and the information that they have access to, it would be insanely easy for you to see how the class has been suffering in both numbers of players and numbers of supporters.  And there are actually many "constructive" posts with valuable feedback addressing those reasons.</P> <P>Virtually all of the "constructive" posters have left this game due to the lack of developer response to issues that are created everytime they decide to turn the class on its head or even worse, when they adjust mechanics to address some problem and leave us (troubadours) all fragged with collateral damage.</P> <P>It's disgusting to see the lack of attention given this section of the gaming populace and every day that passes is another day that players grow more and more enraged.  </P> <P>I have been playing for almost 2 years now and have quit the game 2 times only to come back with hopes that previous concerns were addressed professionally and completely.  </P> <P>The part that angers me even more is that myself and many others see SO much potential in this game and issues like the ones being discussed are relatively easy to examine and resolve... but then they aren't.  That is a failing of the developers and relationship managers that are assigned to this game.</P> <P>So, Ech, play "hall monitor" and stick to the letter of the law (as it is your job), but have some empathy for your charges.  We're not as "digital" as your "law" makes us appear to be.<BR></P>

[Jaimster]

<P>All of this is so true. Please feel free to read the multiple (one even stickied) posts that all contain constructive feedback; the posts that are made by troubs in jest in a half hearted attempt to de-stress about the butchery done to our classes.  It gets really tiring.  See how many dev posts you can find in the entire troubador threads... i think you might find 3 or 4 - total. ... in two years...  is there really any wonder why we think that there either isn't a dev at all for the troubs or the one there is really doesn't care about our class... in reality he'd rather be working on another class, but this is the one that he got assigned to??</P> <P>Communication is key in any relationship, and that includes a business and customers.  So far, your troub customers have been communicating unbelieveably well, with continued hope, and all in a generally pleasant manner and it has not worked well for us at all. SOE has given us beyond miserable communication.  Official threads get started for run graphics and why they were changed. An entire class gets distorted and changed for the worse repeatedly and we get NOTHING... no explanation, no suggestion that we shouldn't be concerned because it will get better.</P> <P>I don't think we can be considered cynical or impatient anymore... it's gone beyond insulting and ridiculous... at least it has for me.</P> <P> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Echgar wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CelandineStar wrote:And for the love of Tunare, let us speak our minds.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I've dealt with a few of these threads today.  I understand that some of you are frustrated, but frustration does not equate with a license to rant, insult others, and violate other <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">forum rules</a>.The reason I quoted what I did is so I could reference my favorite quote from the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">Forum Rules of Conduct</a>:<blockquote>In general, you may post any material written in a courteous and mature manner, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is constructive and appropriate for all those capable of reading the forum.</blockquote>Posting a thread calling for developers to be fired is neither courteous or mature.For all of you that feel the developers never visit this forum, I will let you in on a little secret.  I found out about two of the threads I have moderated here today from ... a developer (who was browsing this forum and reading your threads). <span>:smileyhappy:While you may feel you aren't getting enough attention to your issues, please do not assume the developers are unaware.  They may not always reply, but they do read a lot and greatly appreciate your <i>constructive</i> discussions.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Echgar on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:00 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If thats true all they had to do was drop by and post, "Were looking into these issues, we appreciate your concerns."Thats 1 sentence that would make EVERY SINGLE BARD STOP HATING SOE.  So obviously your wrong and they dont read these forums as much as you would like us to think.  You also delete or lock alot of our posts voicing our concerns.  I say back off and let us have this one, its time bards are heard.  </div>

[Echgar]

<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div><p>So, Ech, play "hall monitor" and stick to the letter of the law (as it is your job), but have some empathy for your charges.  We're not as "digital" as your "law" makes us appear to be.</p><hr></blockquote>Absolutely.  I was actually taking that into consideration when I decided to make a post here last night instead of just locking or removing what is essentially a reopening of a locked thread.  I still may end up closing this thread if it gets out of hand, but I want everyone here to understand we are interested in your concerns.I hear posters use the word "constructive" a lot as well as say things like "this is a 'valid' issue" and it is all too often embedded inbetween some pretty over the top comments that are a personal attack, insulting, or otherwise pretty disrespectful (such as the "fire the dev" type of theme that I closed).  There are ways of expressing criticism while still being respectful.I understand some/several of you are frustrated.  Without a whole lot of effort though, I could point to issues on several other forums where players are frustrated about this or that.  It is the curse of a successful MMO with a large, passionate playerbase. <span>:smileyhappy:</span>I am in no way going to attempt to speak for the developers (they've threatened to feed me to the trolls they keep in the basement for use as models for some of the in-game art if I do), but if you look at what they're doing now is they are very busy putting the finishing touches on EoF.  Developers are always busy trying to keep ahead of the tsunami of player desires, but it takes time to get from problem, to discussion, to plan, to implementation plus everything has to be prioritized.Help us help you.  Make sure your issues list is up-to-date and inclusive of EoF changes.  If it isn't, spruce it up -- developers appreciate summaries of information.  If they have to read through 20 pages of discussion and debate to understand what your issues are, that makes it less likely that they'll see what you see.As for what is moderated here and what isn't, don't give me a reason to step into a thread with my lock club.  Stick with the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>forum rules</a> and you won't see a whole lot from someone like me (except for maybe an occasional friendly "howdy!"). <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[CelandineStar]

<DIV>This is where I think the miscommunication lies:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I was actually taking that into consideration when I decided to make a post here last night instead of just locking or removing what is essentially a reopening of a locked thread."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is NOT re-opening a locked thread.  This is an entirely seperate thread stating how frustrated we are with the locking/deleting/ignoring process that seems to be standard issue around here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I understand some/several of you are frustrated."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, ALL of us are frustrated.  EVERY HIGH LEVEL TROUBADOUR is in agreement on this.  We are not debating among ourselves whether or not the changes have been and will continue to be bad/ineffective.  We are all mourning together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of those "finishing touches to EoF" are exactly what we've trying to voice our opinions on, except that we keep getting silenced.  And then after EoF comes out they'll move onto the Next Big Thing and we'll be relegated to the sidelines again because the devs have better things to do than listen to such a small segment of the customer base.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as the other boards, (as my mother used to say) this is about the Troubadour boards, not all the other boards.  Yes, I think a lot of them are a bunch of whiners.  I also think a lot of them have "valid, constructive" comments that also get ignored.  You keep telling us to provide some "constructive" comments, but my impression is that no matter what we post, it's up to interpretation as to whether you believe it's constructive or not, which is a bit of a catch-22.  Do you want an outline?  A brief synopsis of the idea thread?  Should we add some cute graphics to make it more appealing?  At this point, if you told us we would only get a response if the post was written backwards in pig latin with size 13 bookman font, believe me, I would re-write the post for you.  We're willing to offer anything we can, but no matter what we do we get the "sorry, try again next time" message.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as us being insulting, the only item you've cited has been the "devs getting fired" post, which makes me feel like you just let us set our own trap.  One person finally got frustrated enough to post something inflammatory and now every thread we create is considered a spinoff of that thread and therefore lockable, or we are simply not being constructive enough or positive enough or whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you're not speaking for the Devs, then please don't.  I am tired about hearing the woeful tale of the overworked devs who really care about us SO MUCH but gosh, they just don't have time to give us all the personal attention that we deserve.  Wizzies start screaming and someone runs to comfort them.  Brigands freak out because a dev hasn't posted on their board in a week and someone is right there to assure them that they are loved.  Troubadours try to tell you we are MAD AS HECK and we get the standard, "Oh everyone feels this way" line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lock this post if you want to, but don't just link the forum rules at us.  We are well within forum rules on this post, so that's just a waste of time.  We are being as kind and rational as we can possibly be, considering the circumstances.  As far as being distrespectful, I'll tell you another one my mother told me - you have to earn respect.  The devs are completely disrespectful toward us, but I guess that's ok because they're devs, right?  We should be as meek as possible and hope that one day they will throw us a wee crumb of change...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubadour of Mistmoore </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Echgar wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div><p>So, Ech, play "hall monitor" and stick to the letter of the law (as it is your job), but have some empathy for your charges.  We're not as "digital" as your "law" makes us appear to be.</p><hr></blockquote><b>I understand some/several of you are frustrated.  Without a whole lot of effort though, I could point to issues on several other forums where players are frustrated about this or that.  It is the curse of a successful MMO with a large, passionate playerbase. <span>:smileyhappy:</span></b></div><hr></blockquote>Show me another forum where the class has a 12+page post and counting WITH people that dont even play the class agreeing something needs to be done and ill agree.  But im betting you wont find one.  Bards are geting frustrated and vocal because ITS THE ONLY WAY TO BE HEARD.  No forum has had a 12+page post go unasnwered like the bards have.  Im sorry but you just wont find it.  </div>

[Raijinn]

Hey folks, you are not forgotten. Please continue to post your thoughts in a constructive manner so we can better understand how you feel about the situation. We always look at and analyze gameplay for everyone so we always appreciate the feedback.Thanks!

[Arondur]

<P>Thanks for the Post Raijinn, however a quick look at the Troub threads will show how many of us feel.  What I think, more importantly is if they do infact read troub input they simply dont care enough to communacate....AT ALL.</P> <P> </P> <P> taking 5 points of power regen from Bria's then turn around and let us Buy it back with AA points.  Huge slap in the face IMO.  </P> <P> </P> <P>How about some reason for that, as a start?</P> <P> </P> <P>edited for spelling</P><p>Message Edited by Caladwen on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Filthysnake]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR>Hey folks, you are not forgotten. Please continue to post your thoughts in a constructive manner so we can better understand how you feel about the situation. We always look at and analyze gameplay for everyone so we always appreciate the feedback.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>you are just a forum hall monitor. its your JOB to spin things. its a development member to actually change things. your spin jobs really give little comfort to any of us. we would actually like to get some feedback or get to know what the plan for troubadors are bards are from those that actually make changes rather then parrot manual responses.</P> <P>if you think we are getting hostile well you are right we as a community are starting to get really REALLY annoyed at the lack of progressive development towards a class we pay to play. as mentioned before we have the longest running post on the feedback testing forum with no response and that alone speaks volumns to us as a community.</P> <P>it also says a lot that you only decide to respond to our concerns when things are close to hitting critical mass just before an expansion hits. what does it take to get some actual INFORMATIVE feedback / acknowledgment on these forums. *clearly* giving feedback is only going one way at this point.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by Filthysnake on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:Hey folks, you are not forgotten. Please continue to post your thoughts in a constructive manner so we can better understand how you feel about the situation. We always look at and analyze gameplay for everyone so we always appreciate the feedback.Thanks!<hr></blockquote>Ok wow...first i would just like to say your statement comes off as a bit jaded because it seems like your just saying this to calm us.  Which may or may not be true.  Im hoping that your very sincere about what you say, so i think your going to have to prove yourself.  If we are indeed NOT forgotten as you say what are the devs feelings about the current state of the bard class.  Most of us will say and agree we are very much outdated and its time to clean house.  Would you agree or not agree...that is the question.  </div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caladwen wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p><b> taking 5 points of power regen from Bria's then turn around and let us Buy it back with AA points.  Huge slap in the face IMO.  </b></p> <p>How about some reason for that, as a start?</p> <p>edited for spelling</p><p>Message Edited by Caladwen on <span class="date_text">11-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I would also like to state that changes like these are VERY upseting.  There are a couple DIRGE EOF AA's like this as well.  Sapping shot is one of them.  You add 5 sec to the spell in LU24, then in EOF you are giving us an AA to decrease reuse speed by 5 sec. What is that!?  Do you think we are dumb?  Its very insulting that you would even try this BS with the bard community at this point in time.  </div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR>Hey folks, you are not forgotten. Please continue to post your thoughts in a constructive manner so we can better understand how you feel about the situation. We always look at and analyze gameplay for everyone so we always appreciate the feedback.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'd like to see the devs defend the Troub in it's current state and the new AAs. I'd like to know why they find the class is ok the way it is, and the reasoning behind the new AAs.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> I understand some/several of you are frustrated.  Without a <BR>> whole lot of effort though, I could point to issues on several <BR>> other forums where players are frustrated about this or that.  <BR>> It is the curse of a successful MMO with a large, passionate <BR>> playerbase. <SPAN><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Every class in every MMO has some problems, but there are always classes that stand out. You can take many measures that indicate that troubadours have it hard. Troubadours have been close to last in terms of people to 70. They are <STRONG>the</STRONG> bottom class if you don't include the classes restricted to one realm.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Recently the troubadours dropped from third-least-played to the second-least-played class overall. The only class worse is coercers, which most people would agree also could use help. OTOH, coercers recently DID get some help, so even if you think it wasn't enough, you can see that some effort was made.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Troubadours have been nerfed, not helped, and the official boards don't even spell the name right.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Oh well, back to my necro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></P>

[Raijinn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Filthysnake wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p></p> <p>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:Hey folks, you are not forgotten. Please continue to post your thoughts in a constructive manner so we can better understand how you feel about the situation. We always look at and analyze gameplay for everyone so we always appreciate the feedback.Thanks!</p> <p></p> <hr> <p></p> <p>you are just a forum hall monitor. its your JOB to spin things. its a development member to actually change things. your spin jobs really give little comfort to any of us. we would actually like to get some feedback or get to know what the plan for troubadors are bards are from those that actually make changes rather then parrot manual responses.</p> <p>if you think we are getting hostile well you are right we as a community are starting to get really REALLY annoyed at the lack of progressive development towards a class we pay to play. as mentioned before we have the longest running post on the feedback testing forum with no response and that alone speaks volumns to us as a community.</p> <p>it also says a lot that you only decide to respond to our concerns when things are close to hitting critical mass just before an expansion hits. what does it take to get some actual INFORMATIVE feedback / acknowledgment on these forums. *clearly* giving feedback is only going one way at this point.</p></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by Filthysnake on <span class="date_text">11-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually I do a bit more than spin things and do the hall monitor thing, that might surprise some but yeah...What I can do for the community is help convey the importance of your concerns that you brought up. I can also bring forward the suggestions and point people to certain threads which should be looked at. ....Which is why I suggested that we keep this feedback constructive, we get a lot more from constructive feedback than just ranting. So, while I can understand your frustration with not seeing any posts on your concerns that doesn't mean we don't read them.Bottom line here folks, keep it constructive or I'll have need to be a bit more strict on enforcing the rules here.Thanks.</div>

[Nuhus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN>Recently the troubadours dropped from third-least-played to the second-least-played class overall. The only class worse is coercers, which most people would agree also could use help. OTOH, coercers recently DID get some help, so even if you think it wasn't enough, you can see that some effort was made.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Troubadours have been nerfed, not helped, and the official boards don't even spell the name right.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Oh well, back to my necro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As you can see by my signature, I'm a Coercer. You seem under the impression we are worse off, I can understand that. For quite a while we were. I have played a Coercer since release, I have always loved the first class I started with on EQ2. I'm absolutely passionate about the Coercer class. At release I started with a friend who I know IRL, we both came from SWG when EQ2 was released. I rolled a Coercer, he rolled an SK. The Coercer class was hard to solo - solo mobs with, I would often get killed by green and blue mobs almost every time no matter what strategy I tried. Almost to the point of frustration, I was pretty much to the point where I would only group, never solo.</P> <P>I got a chance to beta test DoF, live update 13 came along. I was playing a beta buffed Coercer and liked some of the changes I saw. The Coercer class was actually improved upon. We got our 'class defining' spell - charm. I gave PLENTY of /feedback after that was implemented through the tiers - before it was a 30 second charm spell we got at level 38 only, Illusionists got it as well back then. LU 13 it finally had some more useful benefits - but needed a bit of tweaking, at first I hated that spell and almost refused to use it.</P> <P>LU 24? (I think) we had lost the ability to cast our mez spells on epics (LU13), and got it back a while later. Personally I'm happy where my class is now (my opinion).</P> <P>Around the same time, LU 13. A guild mate of mine, before he joined the guild was playing a troubador. Did he join with that Troub? No. He joined the guild with a Necro as his new main. He was not happy with the changes made LU13, we had quite a long discussion about that when the summoner 'nerf' came about. I don't play a Troubador so I cannot know what issues you all have, just what I've heard from a guild mate. I don't believe the devs think things are fine because they don't say anything, I think they don't want to say anything unless it's going to happen. </P> <P>The best advice I think I can give you guys, use /feedback they do read it. (not - my class sucks - FIX IT!) but actual constructive feedback. Ironically I hardly posted on the forum at the time, all my stuff was in /feedback.<BR></P> <P>Coercers went a bit overboard in posting, it didn't really help much at the time. Forum fights don't solve class issues, it really wasn't pretty. </P> <P>It took some time - but we did see improvement. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-- Good luck, Sincerely</P>

[Jaimster]

<P>I don't think you understand how many constructive posts we have made over the years... one is even stickied so not so hard to find.  There is a 12 page thread that started off normal and helpful and constructive, but got no response, so we've now gotten a little petulant.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8570&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8570&jump=true</A></P> <P>I'll start a new one though...  NM, one already started here <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=11103&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=11103&jump=true</A></P><p>Message Edited by Jaimster on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 PM</span>

[CelandineStar]

Thank you for your reply, Raijinn.  I'll be honest and tell you I preferred the second, more candid response to the first (canned) one, even if you *are* threatening us with the mod stick this time around.  I think we do understand that feedback is much more useful to the devs than ranting, just as we hope they understand that visibly acknowledging our concerns is much more useful to us than having a mod tell us that the devs read the boards.  I'd be glad to link to some excellent threads here in the Troubie forums (and I can say that because I didn't really contribute to them and so have a more unbiased view, of course) but I've just read in the Rules of Conduct that it's frowned upon, so alas for that idea.However, the Troub forums aren't all that big, really, so I'm sure it wouldn't be terribly hard to find the threads I'm thinking of.  And there are a few more over on the testing forum that we share with our Dirge brothers and sisters on the state of the Bard class in general.If more or specific constructive feedback is needed, perhaps a dev or mod would like to start a thread asking us about a particular issue?  Although you might not think it here the last few weeks, Troubies in general are a pretty easy-going bunch... we think a lot, we love our toons and we're happy to offer up suggestions to make our class better.<div></div>~Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubadour of Mistmoore

[Antipalad]

Ok, since a red name is reading this. Please look into changing the Zander's choral rebuff line, this is a shared lvl 35 spell for bards that doesn't scale, and for all intents and purposes hasn't worked since LU13.It's not a spell that requires AA's to buff it, we need OUR buffs scaled, not some forgotten bloodlines spell of dubious value.

[Raijinn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CelandineStar wrote:Thank you for your reply, Raijinn.  I'll be honest and tell you I preferred the second, more candid response to the first (canned) one, even if you *are* threatening us with the mod stick this time around.  I think we do understand that feedback is much more useful to the devs than ranting, just as we hope they understand that visibly acknowledging our concerns is much more useful to us than having a mod tell us that the devs read the boards.  I'd be glad to link to some excellent threads here in the Troubie forums (and I can say that because I didn't really contribute to them and so have a more unbiased view, of course) but I've just read in the Rules of Conduct that it's frowned upon, so alas for that idea.However, the Troub forums aren't all that big, really, so I'm sure it wouldn't be terribly hard to find the threads I'm thinking of.  And there are a few more over on the testing forum that we share with our Dirge brothers and sisters on the state of the Bard class in general.If more or specific constructive feedback is needed, perhaps a dev or mod would like to start a thread asking us about a particular issue?  Although you might not think it here the last few weeks, Troubies in general are a pretty easy-going bunch... we think a lot, we love our toons and we're happy to offer up suggestions to make our class better.<div></div>~Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubadour of Mistmoore<hr></blockquote>I never really intend to come across as giving a canned response, although I'm sure it's just what everyone kind of expected someone to say. Perhaps that a fault of mine, but the main thing here is that we're opening up the communication lines for people...Or at least letting them know there ARE actual commnunication lines.I've played a Troubador for a while although I mainly play a Swashbuckler because it fits my play style a bit better. I know some others here who play Troubadors, so we'll gladly attempt to decrypt what's being said and relay the information on.Thank's again for being constructive.</div><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 PM</span>

[Tri]

just wanted to point out that being nice didn't bring much but asking for a dev to get fired really worked <span>:smileytongue:</span> It has to be admitted that feedback from the dev's was very scarce, especially concerning the major changes this class underwent since game launch. <div></div>

[CelandineStar]

I don't know that it was the thread itself so much as the community jumping to defend our fellow Troubie when it got locked. I don't personally agree with making outrageous statements to get attention, but I certainly understood the frustration that fueled the thread.  Honestly, I would prefer not to have Devs and/or Mods thinking that by listening this time they are encouraging us to make more angry posts to get our way - that may be the M.O. for some communities or classes, but it shouldn't be and has not been for the Troubadours.~Alexis Silversong, 70 Troubadour of Mistmoore<div></div>

[Tri]

<div></div><font color="#ccffcc" size="4">Was just trying a bit of sarcasm.</font><font color="#ffcc33">I'm not either for ranting and name calling ( but you just can't help it sometimes )</font><font color="#ffcc33"></font><font color="#cccccc">But , but, but the bad spelling is just incredible</font><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><font color="#ff9999">Or is there some obscure mechanics in this game making the change of</font><font color="#ff9999"></font><font color="#ff9999">the name more than difficult for the class selection and the personae window and spell</font><font color="#ff9999"></font><font color="#ff9999">descriptions.</font><font color="#ff6666">This is also the longest ongoing broken spelll / spell description i know of -> bard stealth</font><font color="#ff3300">And about any player i told about the 1 defense for 4 AA points would say</font><font color="#ff3300"></font><font color="#ff3300">the spell must be broken.</font><font color="#ff3300"></font><font color="#ff3300">And i know it adds more for dirges, but that's a +3 bonus</font><span><span>:smileysurprised:</span></span><font color="#ff00ff">might even think of adding +1 per point in the spell, and still don't bother, go get yourself</font><font color="#ff00ff"></font><font color="#ff00ff">a dragonscale sash</font><span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Trabbart]

<P>Well i started the fire thread, mostly because i felt i was out of options to get some acknowledgement that we as a class do exist. It also feels weird and wrong that we only <STRONG>finally</STRONG> got some attention when we threw a temper tantrum and decided we werent gonna get shut up about it.  I rather be acknowledged for positive behaviour, and hopefully in the future this will be the case.</P> <P>Regarding our class and its (perceived) definition i see many issues and even problems.</P> <P>Firsts of all there is the illusion that we are utility. We are NOT. Or at least we are as much (or less) utility as any other class out there. What crowd control utilty we had has got hit by the nerf stick.</P> <P>Regarding Buffing<STRONG>.  All</STRONG> classes get quite a few group buffs and individual buffs to put on other group/raid members. In allmost all cases theirs outrank ours.  The number of group buffs we get also doesnt outrank any other class by much because the versatility, in practice  is non existent. There is not much use/need for many of our group buffs group/raid wise. So we basically get stuck in 2 standard configurations.</P> <P>I wont touch upon dps/scout-invis/self buff/defensive-offensive stance/instruments/non-scaling upgrades or even our aa lines.</P> <P> </P> <P>With EoF and all these adornments and tinkered items coming I see another problem for our class. Everyone can individually mix/match what we provide. We will be even more obsolete/redundant than we are now.</P> <P>And that may be the best word to describe our class <STRONG>REDUNDANT.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P>Ps : A positive query:   Could it be that in EoF Bards also get port spells? But that because of our dwindeling numbers we havent come accross the quest yet?</P><p>Message Edited by Trabbart on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Caladwen wrote:<P>Thanks for the Post Raijinn, however a quick look at the Troub threads will show how many of us feel.  What I think, more importantly is if they do infact read troub input they simply dont care enough to communacate....AT ALL.</P><P> </P><P> taking 5 points of power regen from Bria's then turn around and let us Buy it back with AA points.  Huge slap in the face IMO.  </P><P> </P><P>How about some reason for that, as a start?</P><P> </P><P>edited for spelling</P><p>Message Edited by Caladwen on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I guess it was a mistake. The spell has been reset to the same power regen it has on live (and on top of that you can buy +5 power regen with AP's) as posted in the "Bria's nerfed" thread

[CelandineStar]

Um, I'd like to say AGAIN how much I appreciate getting *anyone* to respond to us.  Has anybody had a chance to scan any of the other boards?  I guess EVERYONE is screaming that they are quitting the game over AA's. It's... well... pathetic comes to mind, but hey.  I'd like to say, I think at this point what troubadours are left are probably not planning to quit, the mass exodus of our class happened about 6 months ago.  Actually, if they left in our sucky AA's and fixed everything else that's wrong with Troubies, I'd be totally happy.  Of course, if our spells worked, it's entirely possible that our new AA's would no longer suck, but I think the new AA's are more of a symptom of the true problems with our class, really.Also, for those of you posting ideas for improvements in this thread, make sure you drop them in the new Consolidated Issues thread.  Otherwise it's not really consolidated, you know.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's awfully exciting to have a Red Name posting in our forums, but I think if any devs are going to help us out, the best way to help THEM out is to keep all of our ideas in one place.~Alexis SIlversong, 70 Troubadour of Mistmoore<div></div>

[Seenafire]

I will start by saying that I too am glad to see that someone is reading this board.  I was fearing for the bard classes in general and was hoping that I would not have to put this in my "another bad class choice" file.  In EQ Live I was a walking vending machine.  When I started EQ2 I was an SK thinking that they were going to be great.  Sadly I was found to be incorrect.  (My DE SK is now a paly)  I turned to the Troub out of desire to be wanted on a raid.  I love that I can help other achive great DPS and seems do to one of the greatest guilds in the world I have a place on raids...  But I have to say that IF I did not have a great guild I would have most likely switched again.  I have read a lot of boards and I have seen a lot of insults fly but in general the bard boards do not have this issue.  I have seen such a great attemt for the bard (yes both sides) community to pass the needs of the classes along to the powers that be in a calm orginized fassion.  But it can only last so long.  SO please bearers of the RED names listen to these fine people and help us make bards the classes that they SHOULD be. 

[Lordviperscorpian]

And look at the responce this thread has gotten since he posted. NONE.  Its obvious that a mod contacted the community rep to "quell the uprising" so to speak.  I call BS.  I still stand by the OP of the post in calling for whoever works on the bard classes to be fired until we get a REAL DEV RESPONCE.  <div></div>

[CelandineStar]

<DIV>As I said earlier, have you read the other boards?  Seriously.  Take a look at them.  I saw Pallies, Brigands and Wizzies all threatening to quit over their "broken" classes.  EoF goes live tomorrow, and there will be a ton of things to fix and/or fine-tune.  Unlike some of the other classes (who are hijacking completely unrelated threads trying to get a dev to pay attention to them) I personally do not need someone to PAY ATTENTION TO ME RIGHT NOW OMG!  They can have a few weeks and if we still hear nothing I'll post again.  And again and again and again if need be.  We need a TOTAL revamp, which is going to take a long time and a lot of discussion between players and devs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, I play a dirge too, and they're not half as broken as troubies, in my opinion.  I agree completely that dirges need love, but please don't come onto our boards and start making demands and accuations when we are making a valiant attempt to give contructive feedback in hopes of getting our tiny chorus of voices heard.  If they took our Alin's and Bria's away, you would never see a Troub in group again.  Two spells.  We have come down to TWO SPELLS that define our class and give us an excuse to group.  There's something wrong with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're being told that the devs are here and reading.  I think we should give them a break and a chance to prove that they're listening.  And if they're not, we can protest by turning off our Alin's for a week until we get everyone to come out and riot with us.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Alexis Silversong</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CelandineStar wrote:<div>As I said earlier, have you read the other boards?  Seriously.  Take a look at them.  I saw Pallies, Brigands and Wizzies all threatening to quit over their "broken" classes.  EoF goes live tomorrow, and there will be a ton of things to fix and/or fine-tune.  Unlike some of the other classes (who are hijacking completely unrelated threads trying to get a dev to pay attention to them) I personally do not need someone to PAY ATTENTION TO ME RIGHT NOW OMG!  They can have a few weeks and if we still hear nothing I'll post again.  And again and again and again if need be.  We need a TOTAL revamp, which is going to take a long time and a lot of discussion between players and devs.</div> <div> </div> <div>BTW, I play a dirge too, and they're not half as broken as troubies, in my opinion.  I agree completely that dirges need love, but please don't come onto our boards and start making demands and accuations when we are making a valiant attempt to give contructive feedback in hopes of getting our tiny chorus of voices heard.  If they took our Alin's and Bria's away, you would never see a Troub in group again.  Two spells.  We have come down to TWO SPELLS that define our class and give us an excuse to group.  There's something wrong with that.</div> <div> </div> <div>We're being told that the devs are here and reading.  I think we should give them a break and a chance to prove that they're listening.  And if they're not, we can protest by turning off our Alin's for a week until we get everyone to come out and riot with us.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>~Alexis Silversong</div><hr></blockquote>Um where have you been?  Bards have been complaining long before EOF AA's were even thought about.  Go look at our 13+ page post on the test feedback forum.  Bards have been asking for a change about the same time enchanters started yelling for one.  Enchanters got their change and it hit troubadors pretty bad.  Now bards are next in line and we want our turn.  The other classes are complaining for far different reasons than bards.  They want super power 1 shot ability AA's .  We want more temporary(NOT PASSIVE) utility and our buffs concentration cost to be reconsidered. If the devs are reading like you say, something i seriously doubt, then why havnt we gotten a responce on one of the 10+ threads about bards wanting a change?  Its not hard to click the "Reply" button and say "Were looking into it." Until a dev can do that im not going to give them a break. They sure havnt given us one.</div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[CelandineStar]

<DIV>I've been in game playing a Troubadour for two years.  Trust me, I KNOW we've been ignored.  For one glorious moment last week, we had a Red Name posting in our forums, and until they drop the ball again I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  If I can survive two years, I can survive two weeks if that's what they need to get EoF up and running and turn their attention to us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I know what the other classes are screaming about, hence the quotes around "broken."  We happily directed the mod to ALL of the bard threads, not just the ones in our forum.  I know it's a running joke that we have 1 million pages of ideas on our class and nary a response, but maybe one day (in my happy sunshine unicorn land) the Devs will get sick of listening to the other classes whine about their lack of one-shot abilities and decide to come talk to the bards, who at least manage coherent sentences and have valid (YES I SAID IT AGAIN - VALID! VALID! VALID!) concerns about the eroision of our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate posting on forums because I don't want to be one of the great multitudes of whiners and/or fanbois, but at some point you have to take a stand.  Maybe the more people who post, the more posts there are, the more mods wandering through, the more chance we tug at their heartstrings and they put a bug in dev's ears.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, maybe if we all post in rhymed iambic pentameter, someone will laugh and point us out to a dev.  WHATEVER IT TAKES.  But I'm not going to whine after a few days of silence when they're obviously in the middle of a huge project.  I know I'm a newbie forum poster, but it doesn't mean I don't know what's been going on with my class, and other people's classes, and the community response to CS in general.  I want to get a dev to come BACK, not be alienated entirely.</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:<div>Um where have you been?  Bards have been complaining long before EOF AA's were even thought about.  Go look at our 13+ page post on the test feedback forum.  Bards have been asking for a change about the same time enchanters started yelling for one.  Enchanters got their change and it hit troubadors pretty bad.  Now bards are next in line and we want our turn.  </div><div>The other classes are complaining for far different reasons than bards.  They want super power 1 shot ability AA's .  We want more temporary(NOT PASSIVE) utility and our buffs concentration cost to be reconsidered. If the devs are reading like you say, something i seriously doubt, then why havnt we gotten a responce on one of the 10+ threads about bards wanting a change?  Its not hard to click the "Reply" button and say "Were looking into it." Until a dev can do that im not going to give them a break. They sure havnt given us one.</div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class="date_text">11-13-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:04 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i would just like to say, Applesauce has been trying to get things fixed for ALL bards. he has not called a single nerf for troubs while calling for support for the dirges. he has been *extremely* supportive of the troubadors for the last few months and in all he has done is attempt to champion our cause.i appreciate that from a fellow BARD.</div>

[Tri]

<div></div>The scary and frustrating part is that those who whine get more attention.Besides the message with LU 24 ( after so many pages of sincere pleas for a response )I can't remember when this forum recieved a visit from someone.Seems being civic is not the best idea, this hurts <span>:smileywink:</span>It's either whining or entertaining those who fly over these posts.<font color="#ccffcc">Anyway i'm back to rejoicing, Jester's cap has been fixed,</font><font color="#ccffcc"></font><font color="#ccffcc">and this ONLY one expansion after it's release.</font><font color="#ccffcc"></font><font color="#ccffcc">Why should i want anything else?</font>P.S to the mods :  think of slipping one word or two here to avoid having to locka lot of threads in the near future.Unless grinding locked threads numbers helps on your end of monthreport.In that case i will gladly give you a lot of opportunities <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[thorvang]

hope arose in me when i saw the new character creation screen. they not only got rid of the archetype classification, they labeled assassins as rogues, right next to swashbucklers and bringands. rangers, paladins and shadowknights are now a class of it's own. while dirges and troubadours "remained" as bards, this little change gave me hope they're pushing the archetype system over board - in very small steps, like it all started with the removal of starting the game as an archetype.so, if bards aren't scouts anymore - according to the creation screen - they're free to make anything of this class they - or we - want. no one expects them to be comparable with rogues or predators anymore. the first step in freeing the bards has been taken! now totally revamp the bards.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:hope arose in me when i saw the new character creation screen. they not only got rid of the archetype classification, they labeled assassins as rogues, right next to swashbucklers and bringands. rangers, paladins and shadowknights are now a class of it's own. while dirges and troubadours "remained" as bards, this little change gave me hope they're pushing the archetype system over board - in very small steps, like it all started with the removal of starting the game as an archetype.so, if bards aren't scouts anymore - according to the creation screen - they're free to make anything of this class they - or we - want. no one expects them to be comparable with rogues or predators anymore. the first step in freeing the bards has been taken! <b>now totally revamp the bards.</b><hr></blockquote>I also noticed the new character descriptions being changed, and if that means we are freed of being classified as a scout then maybe they are planning to do something. Still though, how hard would it be to say something about it?  All im asking at this point is for a developer to say:1.  Were looking into bards to see how we can update them.2.  We have no plans to make changes ot the bard class.If they said either of those statements all this would stop, and we could all move on.  </div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>hope arose in me when i saw the new character creation screen. they not only got rid of the archetype classification, they labeled assassins as rogues, right next to swashbucklers and bringands. rangers, paladins and shadowknights are now a class of it's own. while dirges and troubadours "remained" as bards, this little change gave me hope they're pushing the archetype system over board - in very small steps, like it all started with the removal of starting the game as an archetype.<BR><BR>so, if bards aren't scouts anymore - according to the creation screen - they're free to make anything of this class they - or we - want. no one expects them to be comparable with rogues or predators anymore. the first step in freeing the bards has been taken! <B>now totally revamp the bards.</B><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I also noticed the new character descriptions being changed, and if that means we are freed of being classified as a scout then maybe they are planning to do something. Still though, how hard would it be to say something about it?  All im asking at this point is for a developer to say:<BR><BR>1.  Were looking into bards to see how we can update them.<BR><BR>2.  We have no plans to make changes ot the bard class.<BR><BR>If they said either of those statements all this would stop, and we could all move on.  <BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At this point they could just copy paste your lines, or even just come here, click reply, and type 1 or 2. We're asking the world of them I tell ya.

[Lordviperscorpian]

I would definatly take a "1" or "2" responce at this point <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[vladsamier]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caladwen wrote:<BR> <P>Thanks for the Post Raijinn, however a quick look at the Troub threads will show how many of us feel.  What I think, more importantly is if they do infact read troub input they simply dont care enough to communacate....AT ALL.</P> <P> </P> <P> taking 5 points of power regen from Bria's then turn around and let us Buy it back with AA points.  Huge slap in the face IMO.  </P> <P> </P> <P>How about some reason for that, as a start?</P> <P> </P> <P>edited for spelling</P> <P>Message Edited by Caladwen on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That "slap in the face" was removed before you posted your message, and was discussed in another thread. Bria's was initially nerfed, but they moved it back to being 46power/tick at master 1 with no achivements used.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>vladsamier wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Caladwen wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Thanks for the Post Raijinn, however a quick look at the Troub threads will show how many of us feel.  What I think, more importantly is if they do infact read troub input they simply dont care enough to communacate....AT ALL.</p> <p> taking 5 points of power regen from Bria's then turn around and let us Buy it back with AA points.  Huge slap in the face IMO.  </p> <p>How about some reason for that, as a start?</p> <p>edited for spelling</p> <p>Message Edited by Caladwen on <span class="date_text">11-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:30 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>That "slap in the face" was removed before you posted your message, and was discussed in another thread. Bria's was initially nerfed, but they moved it back to being 46power/tick at master 1 with no achivements used.<hr></blockquote>It was changed only because we caught them doing it.  Same with the dirge root spell.  They made adjustments because we called them out on several beta posts.  </div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>