Troub is boring, change pls

[Concordant]

Hello! I have a 70 Troubadour and I used to love him. It was fun to group and raid with him, but no more. Why? Because our role is WAY to passive. The diffrence giving all in raids and a bot, just running on autofollow, is insignificant. (before posts about gear arise: I am fully fabled and almost mastered out) Yeah, I know, we can PoM and Jester, debuff and use some CA. I am not talking about dps here, we are not. But being outdpsed by healers is disgusting. So ignore our dps, we dont have any. Ah, our debuffs, wait, ability debuff? ineffective. Magic resist debuff YEAH, at least for a little. So overall ignore our debuffs. Jester is nice, so we can do some every 30 secs. LOL PoM is nice, again, every 2 minits. And the rest? Why they even want us in raids? Easy. It is all about our passive group buffs, which are sweet. Powerregen and Hatereduction mainly, Aria for procs too. Yes, we are needed in raids, yes, we make a raid better, yes, it is ok, that we are no uber dps, yes, it is ok for me to sacrifice whatever my output is to the enhanced output ouf the group/raid. NO, it is not ok to make so little diffrence to a bot on autofollow, NO, it is not ok to make playing Troubadours boring. By the way, just sort this post under "Random Troubadour Rant"    /sarcasm off I still have hope Concordant <div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

if you're being out-damaged by healers, then they are probably not healing. thus, not needed to heal. replace with better dps.<div></div>

[Rampagious]

I don't get it.  People make these posts saying "I used to love my troub when we weren't buff bots."  Well what I would like to know, when were we not ever buff bots?  Atm we are able to play our class more than we ever have, not saying it is enough but.  Ever since, t5 its been the exact same way.  Actaully t5 we did no dps, and just were extremely overpowered with swansong.  So I'm not sure why these people who are pushing for a more active role like t5 the best /sigh.<div></div>

[Concordant]

Thank you for reply. You are right, they should heal and they do. BUT that they have the possibility to outdps a Troub is kinda funny. I just mentioned this to show how insignificant our dps is. But thats not the focus of my post. Dont get me wrong, this is no dps discussion here. I dont want uberdps. We have debuffs, so please make them have any effect. And give us some more ACTIVE stuff like Jester. Just want a better activity vs bot output here. Concordant <div></div>

[Concordant]

Thanks for reply. In T5 we had a more active role, because our group buffs had to be recast, generating lots of aggro, so we had to use deaggro etc. Dont get me wrong, I like the perma-buffs. In T5 our debuffs had more effect. You could even powerdrain epics to 0, which is another useless ability now by the way. There is a change to more passiveness since T5, maybe not too much, but still. Making our debuffs worthwhile and another shortterm buff like Jester would make a lot of raiding Troubadours happy. It is not dps I am talking about, thats for other classes. But what do we have, if our debuffs are tiny and we just have Jester and PoM. Booooooooring. Concordant <div></div>

[thorvang]

at least in early t5 raids (with our buffs lasting for ~3 mins) you could see the difference between a good and a bad troub. the bad troub needed to be rezzed 5 times, the good just 2 times <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />tho... yes, we were mainly buff bots back then, but due to our vastly overpowered swansong we were so critical to mt groups we didn't noticed.i don't want overpowered buffs. i also don't want twisting back. but something needs to be done to make playing a troub on raids mean something. the raid should benefit greatly from a good bard and notice if a bard is not using his potential to the fullest (or is afk for that matter).and give us some variation. we have lots of buffs but most of them are a waste of concentration. the first thing that crosses my mind are things like overhaste or more single target short time buffs (like jester) with powerful effects.

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div>i don't believe any healer can out-damage a troubador. certainly not on his own and without troubador buffs. the highest dps i've seen from a healer is around 450-500. the highest claims i've heard are around 600. i've seen parses on this forum for troubadors well over 900.healers getting 900 dps? fat chance on that.i realize it's not the point of your post, but supplementing a post with false information isn't the way to make a point either.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:32 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR> i don't believe any healer can out-damage a troubador. certainly not on his own and without troubador buffs. the highest dps i've seen from a healer is around 450-500. the highest claims i've heard are around 600. i've seen parses on this forum for troubadors well over 900.<BR>healers getting 900 dps? fat chance on that.<BR>i realize it's not the point of your post, but supplementing a post with false information isn't the way to make a point either.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <SPAN class=date_text>10-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would have to argue that dps for troubs 900 and up is REALLY not the norm... it's in a fabulous group that works perfectly for the troub's performance as well as the troub being fully fabled and mastered out...

[Concordant]

Thanks for reply. Totally agree with Janus! To Vallix: I dont say healers outdps Troubs constantly for lots of reasons (need of healing, etc.). But a Fury can do easily, IF focussing on dps. But again, not my main point. I dont even want uber high dps. For me the Troub should be the ACTIVE buffer/debuffer. There is not much to do in that department at the moment. Therefor being active vs being bot doesnt really pay. Concordant <div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div></div>I would have to argue that dps for troubs 900 and up is REALLY not the norm... it's in a fabulous group that works perfectly for the troub's performance as well as the troub being fully fabled and mastered out...<hr></blockquote>healer norm dps isn't going to touch troubador norm dps, anyway. my level 70 warden can usually get about 300-350 if all i do is spam damage spells and use melee. i'd estimate the average troubador's dps at 70 to be around 500-600, which is still significantly higher.you're not going to be out-damaged by a healer unless you're just being a buff-bot. in that case, shame on you for complaining that healers do more damage since they actually take the time to cast a spell.a fury might be able to beat you on a multi-enemy encounter if they throw up both of their aoe DoTs, and then continue to nuke again afterwards. even then, i'd think you'd have to be a lazy bard, or that fury would have to be significantly better geared than you for them to do more damage in the long run.</div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class=date_text>10-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 AM</span>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR> i don't believe any healer can out-damage a troubador. certainly not on his own and without troubador buffs. the highest dps i've seen from a healer is around 450-500. the highest claims i've heard are around 600. i've seen parses on this forum for troubadors well over 900.<BR>healers getting 900 dps? fat chance on that.<BR>i realize it's not the point of your post, but supplementing a post with false information isn't the way to make a point either.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <SPAN class=date_text>10-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>some furies can break the 700 mark and continue healing..its kinda scary. however seeing a non-fury healer break 400 or so is a feat unto itself unless the fight is about 15 seconds long.</P>

[Rampagious]

<div></div>Our templar just parsed 1.3k last night on a named in labs :lEdit: typo<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class=date_text>10-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 AM</span>

[Mishrac]

<DIV>What is wrong with you did this thread say lets talk about Priest-dps??? NO it said that trubs are boring adn what are the dev team going to do about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that there is no active buffing and debuffing in that matter.. you go pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jester Tank to get that aggro fast.</DIV> <DIV>Position.</DIV> <DIV>Auto attack.</DIV> <DIV>PoM</DIV> <DIV>Debuffs x 4</DIV> <DIV>and instant knockdown (dont effect epic but still with PoM running some extra dmg there)</DIV> <DIV>Jester some DPS or Healer depending on how the fight is going.</DIV> <DIV>Then do some Spells and CA:s.</DIV> <DIV>Jester some more.</DIV> <DIV>Maintain Debuffs.</DIV> <DIV>PoM some more if long fight</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well to be honest im kinda ocopied during the raids with this. Or if its a long fight I almost jus focus on debuffs, Jesters and PoM + Claras for that int debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Im kinda busy all the time during raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I do agree some more active buffs would be more fun then the Ca:s and the spells.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mishrac on <span class=date_text>10-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 PM</span>

[Antipalad]

It's not like we don't have anything to do on raids, it's just that we have absolutely nothing that makes a good troub shine on a raid.Right now we're bland buff/debuff/dps, with 2 active buffs we can throw on every now and then. Spice us up a bit please, add some more skill to the class.

[Llewrend]

<DIV>I parsed 1.7k once on a group in lyceum, take that 1.3k healer!</DIV>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <BR>I would have to argue that dps for troubs 900 and up is REALLY not the norm... it's in a fabulous group that works perfectly for the troub's performance as well as the troub being fully fabled and mastered out...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>healer norm dps isn't going to touch troubador norm dps, anyway. my level 70 warden can usually get about 300-350 if all i do is spam damage spells and use melee. i'd estimate the average troubador's dps at 70 to be around 500-600, which is still significantly higher.<BR>you're not going to be out-damaged by a healer unless you're just being a buff-bot. in that case, shame on you for complaining that healers do more damage since they actually take the time to cast a spell.<BR>a fury might be able to beat you on a multi-enemy encounter if they throw up both of their aoe DoTs, and then continue to nuke again afterwards. even then, i'd think you'd have to be a lazy bard, or that fury would have to be significantly better geared than you for them to do more damage in the long run.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <SPAN class=date_text>10-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i wasn't complaining - I was pointing out that you were wrong.... big difference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Concordant]

<blockquote><hr>Mishrac wrote:<div></div> <div>What is wrong with you did this thread say lets talk about Priest-dps??? NO it said that trubs are boring adn what are the dev team going to do about it.</div> <div> </div> <div>I agree that there is no active buffing and debuffing in that matter.. you go pull.</div> <div> </div> <div>Jester Tank to get that aggro fast.</div> <div>Position.</div> <div>Auto attack.</div> <div>PoM</div> <div>Debuffs x 4</div> <div>and instant knockdown (dont effect epic but still with PoM running some extra dmg there)</div> <div>Jester some DPS or Healer depending on how the fight is going.</div> <div>Then do some Spells and CA:s.</div> <div>Jester some more.</div> <div>Maintain Debuffs.</div> <div>PoM some more if long fight</div> <div> </div> <div>Well to be honest im kinda ocopied during the raids with this. Or if its a long fight I almost jus focus on debuffs, Jesters and PoM + Claras for that int debuff.</div> <div> </div> <div>So Im kinda busy all the time during raids.</div> <div> </div> <div>But I do agree some more active buffs would be more fun then the Ca:s and the spells.</div><p>Message Edited by Mishrac on <span class="date_text">10-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:43 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Thanks for reply. Please ignore the dps discussion, because it leads down the wrong path. The other stuff mentioned here is what I want to focus on. I agree, we Jester and we PoM and yeah we debuff and dps a bit. But here is the point. Our job is done by being there (bot = aka passive buffs). All we add now is some ineffective debuffs and two buffs (which are good, agreed). So that is 2 buffs. Please compare that to the stuff other classes do in raids (and yes I can compare, have other 70s). I could live with no dps (as in CA) at all, if we got some interesting buff/debuffs. BUT our debuffs are weak!!! Make them at least have some effect please. If you want a debuffer, get a Brigand you say. Ok, no problem, we dont want to fight Brigands for their debuffs. Let them keep theirs. BUT then please, as we are THE buffers, give us some ACTIVE buffs. Thats it. Concordant<div></div>

[Mishrac]

<P>I agree with you.</P> <P>I would love to have some more active buffs.. and better debuffs.</P>

[thorvang]

i found the solution to all troub issues. i quit raiding and just fool around norrath, shoot movies and spam ooc. great fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jeger_Wulf]

I made three alts. A mystic (now 47) , a swashbuckler (now 33), and a necro (now 26). Together they have solved my troubadour issues. Now my issue is deciding which alt to play.<p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>10-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> I made three alts. A mystic (now 47) , a swashbuckler (now 33), and a necro (now 26). Together they have solved my troubadour issues. Now my issue is deciding which alt to play. <P>Message Edited by mbolme on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I also have a mystic, swash, necro, and troub. My main was a Monk though.

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Concordant wrote:<BR>Hello!<BR><BR>I have a 70 Troubadour and I used to love him. It was fun to group and raid with him, but no more.<BR><BR>Why?<BR>Because our role is WAY to passive. The diffrence giving all in raids and a bot, just running on autofollow, is insignificant. (before posts about gear arise: I am fully fabled and almost mastered out)<BR>Yeah, I know, we can PoM and Jester, debuff and use some CA.<BR><BR>I am not talking about dps here, we are not. But being outdpsed by healers is disgusting. So ignore our dps, we dont have any.<BR><BR>Ah, our debuffs, wait, ability debuff? ineffective. Magic resist debuff YEAH, at least for a little. So overall ignore our debuffs.<BR><BR>Jester is nice, so we can do some every 30 secs. LOL<BR><BR>PoM is nice, again, every 2 minits.<BR><BR>And the rest? Why they even want us in raids?<BR>Easy. It is all about our passive group buffs, which are sweet. Powerregen and Hatereduction mainly, Aria for procs too.<BR><BR>Yes, we are needed in raids, yes, we make a raid better, yes, it is ok, that we are no uber dps, yes, it is ok for me to sacrifice whatever my output is to the enhanced output ouf the group/raid.<BR>NO, it is not ok to make so little diffrence to a bot on autofollow, NO, it is not ok to make playing Troubadours boring.<BR><BR>By the way, just sort this post under "Random Troubadour Rant"    /sarcasm off<BR><BR><BR>I still have hope<BR><BR><BR>Concordant<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are boring  goaway please

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>You are boring  goaway please<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ispederl I know you are really happy with your troubador, and that's good and all. But would it hurt you to at least try and respect other posters and their opinion about troubs?</P> <P>The more I see you post in the above style, the more I loose respect for you and your posts, and I doubt that is what you want. You are risking ending up with noone wanting to listen to you.</P> <P>And why do I have a feeling I will get flamed for this post....</P> <P> </P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>You are boring  goaway please<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ispederl I know you are really happy with your troubador, and that's good and all. But would it hurt you to at least try and respect other posters and their opinion about troubs?</P> <P>The more I see you post in the above style, the more I loose respect for you and your posts, and I doubt that is what you want. You are risking ending up with noone wanting to listen to you.</P> <P>And why do I have a feeling I will get flamed for this post....</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't feed the trolls.

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>You are boring  goaway please<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ispederl I know you are really happy with your troubador, and that's good and all. But would it hurt you to at least try and respect other posters and their opinion about troubs?</P> <P>The more I see you post in the above style, the more I loose respect for you and your posts, and I doubt that is what you want. You are risking ending up with noone wanting to listen to you.</P> <P>And why do I have a feeling I will get flamed for this post....</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you can personaly think what you will but i find it funny how your coming down on my for my reactions and not saying anything to the mindless flame junkies doing nothign but ranting about how troub's suck </P> <P>tbh ive tried to have the serious discussions about this but im simply sick of all the baby whiners complaining becauser were not easy mode or posting jsut to say that they dont freaking play the class n e more   im sorry but if thats all they have to say they need to freaking go somewhere else </P> <P>u dont play it anymore ? great go away </P> <P>that simple </P>

[Calman]

I have a 70 TroubaBORE i don't play much anymore.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Don't feed the trolls.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Probably the best solution, I will take your advice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P>

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

<blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<P><BR>you can personaly think what you will but i find it funny how your coming down on my for my reactions and not saying anything to the mindless flame junkies doing nothign but ranting about how troub's suck </P><hr></blockquote>They speak their opinion about their class. They don't tell other people to stop posting and go away.<blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<P>tbh ive tried to have the serious discussions about this but im simply sick of all the baby whiners complaining becauser were not easy mode or posting jsut to say that they dont freaking play the class n e more   im sorry but if thats all they have to say they need to freaking go somewhere else </P><P>u dont play it anymore ? great go away </P><P>that simple </P><hr></blockquote>If it annoys you so much to read it ... well, don't. That simple. You tell people to go away, expect responses.This particular post pointed out a problem with how bards work in raids (which is why I read it too, even though I'm not even a Troubador). Some people disagree, some agree, some don't want to even hear the discussion. I'm not sure which group to put you in, but it doesn't seem to be the third, or you wouldn't have participated at all./RS

[Concordant]

<blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Liljna wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> lspiderl wrote: <div></div>You are boring  goaway please <hr> </blockquote> <p>Ispederl I know you are really happy with your troubador, and that's good and all. But would it hurt you to at least try and respect other posters and their opinion about troubs?</p> <p>The more I see you post in the above style, the more I loose respect for you and your posts, and I doubt that is what you want. You are risking ending up with noone wanting to listen to you.</p> <p>And why do I have a feeling I will get flamed for this post....</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>you can personaly think what you will but i find it funny how your coming down on my for my reactions and not saying anything to the mindless flame junkies doing nothign but ranting about how troub's suck </p> <p>tbh ive tried to have the serious discussions about this but im simply sick of all the baby whiners complaining becauser were not easy mode or posting jsut to say that they dont freaking play the class n e more   im sorry but if thats all they have to say they need to freaking go somewhere else </p> <p>u dont play it anymore ? great go away </p> <p>that simple </p><hr></blockquote> Thank you for your replys. There are a lot of posts about Troubadours not being very pleased with their role. I think judging them all as whiners is wrong. And just accepting the situation as is and not trying to get it better is even worse. I dont discredit you and your playstyle in anyway. And I remember playing my Troub at L34 was really funny. But please respect my point of view, being double your level and having seen more than you. NOT saying you cant have your view, but you cant really judge the role of a Troubadour in total (and raiding even). In higher levels you will see that the gap between us and other scouts gets way bigger. I gave some examples to deepen our role (e.g. more active shortterm buffing) and making it more interesting to play a Troub. Just saying: "You dont like it, go away!" is to cheap for me and wont help to make the game better. (Troubs had LOTS of changes since gamestart!) So flaming doesnt help, if there are more constructive ideas, please post them here. Maybe some will be seen. Thank you for listening Concordant <div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Concordant wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thank you for your replys.<BR><BR>There are a lot of posts about Troubadours not being very pleased with their role. I think judging them all as whiners is wrong. And just accepting the situation as is and not trying to get it better is even worse.<BR><BR>I dont discredit you and your playstyle in anyway. And I remember playing my Troub at L34 was really funny. But please respect my point of view, being double your level and having seen more than you. NOT saying you cant have your view, but you cant really judge the role of a Troubadour in total (and raiding even). In higher levels you will see that the gap between us and other scouts gets way bigger. <BR><BR>I gave some examples to deepen our role (e.g. more active shortterm buffing) and making it more interesting to play a Troub.<BR><BR>Just saying: "You dont like it, go away!" is to cheap for me and wont help to make the game better. (Troubs had LOTS of changes since gamestart!)<BR><BR>So flaming doesnt help, if there are more constructive ideas, please post them here. Maybe some will be seen.<BR><BR><BR>Thank you for listening<BR><BR><BR>Concordant<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok bro ill give u that your op was better than half the crap posts ive seen in reguards to troubs but still it came across like sandpaper on a sun burn </P> <P>im not stupid and i know troub is not perfect </P> <P>but its also not NEARLY as bad as many people make it out to be and im just easly offended by all the countless [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] posts of peopel just coming in with worthless comments like troub sux / is boring etc just to be an @$$hat  w/o any real point  now looking back at the content of your post i realize that maybie its not  as bad as many of the other posts but the title of the thread kinda set the tone in a BAD way for me and i tend to get defensive about thinks that are special to me </P> <P>its kinda like smuggler on swg played for like EVER even though it sucked i still loved my smugler and always made a point to look at the good stuff it had going for it  </P> <P>well troubs not even 1 /100th as bad off as smugler was in swg . i mean yeah its not the greatest class in the world but were always wantdd in groups , we CAN solo well if were carefull and realy on our game and we can pull off some rather crazy stunts in the right situations </P> <P>so could it use some improvement ? most definately </P> <P>does it suck ? not  even close </P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> but its also not NEARLY as bad as many people make it out to be </P> <P>It's EXACTLY this bad:</P> <P>Coercer 859 <BR>Illusionist 929 <BR>Troubador 939 </P> <P>the third least played class at level 70. I thinks that's as bad as most people think it is, and it's pretty bad. It appears to me that Coercers and Illusionists are catching up now, but I could be wrong.</P> <P>> and im just easly offended by all the countless [expletive haxx0red <BR>> by Raijinn] posts of peopel just coming in with worthless comments <BR>> like troub sux / is boring etc just to be an @$$hat  w/o any real point </P> <P>The real point is that troubs are boring. It's a valid point and one many agree with. No reason to take offense, though. No one is telling you to stop playing your troub. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid we might actually get improvements implemented to the class?</P> <P>> Does it suck ? not  even close </P> <P>Most people don't say it sucks - they say it's boring. </P>

[Cuz]

<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=261610" target=_blank><SPAN>lspiderl</SPAN></A> , what the hell do you do in a fight to make playing a troub interesting? Until 50 the best you can do other then being a really low DPS scout is pretend to yourself that because you charmed a mob you helped the group.

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=261610" target=_blank><SPAN>lspiderl</SPAN></A> , what the hell do you do in a fight to make playing a troub interesting? Until 50 the best you can do other then being a really low DPS scout is pretend to yourself that because you charmed a mob you helped the group.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well first off bud our dps when fully mastered isnt half as bad as u make it out to be in pve or pvp </P> <P>secondly the "charm " that you so casualy dismiss  is fantastic for saving a healer or caster or dps'er rear end when they pull agro because  ucan cahrm it off them till the tank can get a taunt on them (have had  MANY healers and caster thanking me for timely saves) third our stat debuffs as insane  at 36 my str debuff debuff double what my lvl 50 inquis master str debuff does  not to mention the power drain and wis debuff hell casting just those 2 ( the 2 up kept debuffs ) usualy means the differance between success and a wipe when ur in a small underpowered group </P> <P>and in pvp well bro ive stated in other posts how well i do in that endevor i regualry even cons yellows and ojs  and groups of blues and greens all with relative ease , im consitantly moving ,casting  ,debuffing , attacking melle and range back and forth so i dubnno what you all are doing in your groups but i contribute a LOT and im NEVER left w/o a group when i want one , and most of all im NEVER bored  so eh say what u will but i know the simple truth </P>

[Calman]

So thats not a slight hint in your sig then ispiderl? I really thought it was. LOL sorry, when i read Yen-Troubabor (34)  I thought you were hinting at troubaBORE. Congrats that you love your character and that you enjoy troubadour class, how long have you been playing him a few weeks?I guess some people are pleased with how  troubadour class is at the moment. but a lot more people who have had a lot more experience of the class think we have been sort changed along the way.  Some of those players have invested years in the class not a few weeks or months. once the fresh feeling of the class has gone see how you feel. but if you love troub forever I'm happy for you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  but if you can come on here and tell everyone that troubadours are so fantastic then i or anyone else can come on here and say they are boring. without others saying shut up. feel free to flame me. I could do with a laugh. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calman wrote:<BR>So thats not a slight hint in your sig then ispiderl? I really thought it was. LOL sorry, when i read Yen-Troubabor (34)  I thought you were hinting at troubaBORE.<BR> <BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Congrats that you love your character and that you enjoy troubadour class, how long have you been playing him a few weeks?<BR></FONT>I guess some people are pleased with how  troubadour class is at the moment. but a lot more people who have had a lot more experience of the class think <BR>we have been sort changed along the way.  Some of those players have invested years in the class not a few weeks or months. once the fresh feeling of the class has <BR>gone see how you feel. but if you love troub forever I'm happy for you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <FONT color=#6633ff>but if you can come on here and tell everyone that troubadours are so fantastic then i or anyone <BR>else can come on here and say they are boring. without others saying shut up. <BR><BR>feel free to flame me. I could do with a laugh. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>accualy bro ive been playing him for around 6 months now <BR>but as i DOUBT you have what it takes to play on a pvp server i DOUBT  you understand taht leveling takes quite a bit more time and effort since u can be thrown into pvp  in the middle of anything unless u lock yourself away in instances 24/7 at which point u realy shouldnt </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>bother playing</FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>if you acucaly payed attiniton im the one responding to all the negativity and then after being flamed for having somethign positive to say  (which is simply a childish thing to flame someone for ) i respond witht he fact that said peopel just need to stop posting because what they have to say simply isnt worth while </FONT></P>

[Cuz]

<P>Ohh nice try, you started with the flamming. </P> <P>If you think your charm is useful to "save" someone in a group, your tank plain ol' sucks. Charming an add, usually ends up making things needlesly complicated. Add comes, you charm, tank tries to taunt, can't, has to retarget the original encounter, charm ends, tank has to toggle back to the mob you charmed, taunt, then stick to that or go back to the original encounter again.</P> <P>Option two, add comes, tank switches to add, taunts, gets back to original target.</P> <P>If someone steals agro you'll want to use mezz, which you'll only get at 50 for god knows what reason. Until then get the swashbuckler in the group to do crowd control, he's better at it then you are.</P> <P>If you need to be fully mastered to be "not half as bad as I make it out to be", it is "as bad as I make it out to be".</P> <P>Why are you constantly moving? Go behind the mob. Maybe move back a little to shoot arrows (for the stiffle), but often times you can find that sweet spot where you can melee and use that skill. So no need in moving around too much. So please enlighten me to this simple truth that makes you move a round. </P> <P>Most of the healers I've asked don't notivce when my debuffs are on. We actually play a game of "Are my debuffs on or not?", the healers try to guess (without looking at the mob debuff icons of course) if the mob is debuffed. Do I cast them? Yeah I do. Are they worth it? Probably, but it's a bit of a leap of faith. I don't notice how much they help, but I'm assuming they do. The one debuff I do notice working you didn't even mention. </P>

[Concordant]

Thank you for replys. Dont move this threat in the wrong direction please. I understand your point lspiderl, but we are talking raids here. Sorry to say, but you cant talk about those, so please stay out of this discussion for a bit. This is not about grouping or soloing. I know we can do some funny stuff there (remark: funny, dont wana get into it how good it is! /off). Back to topic: I have some ideas for those short term buffs that could make us raiding Troubs life less boring: -  Powerregen on Target -  Deaggro on Target -  Spellcrit next spell on Target (or some even groupwide, not going into deep detail for now, as I just want ideas for now and no discussion about an imaginary buff beeing overpowered (so missing numbers intentionally)) just some ideas, if you have some too, please feel free to add. Thanks for listening Concordant <div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Concordant wrote:Thank you for replys.Dont move this threat in the wrong direction please.I understand your point lspiderl, but we are talking raids here. Sorryto say, but you cant talk about those, so please stay out of thisdiscussion for a bit.This is not about grouping or soloing. I know we can do some funnystuff there (remark: funny, dont wana get into it how good it is! /off).Back to topic:I have some ideas for those short term buffs that could make us raiding Troubs life less boring:-  Powerregen on Target-  Deaggro on Target-  Spellcrit next spell on Target(or some even groupwide, not going into deep detail for now, as I justwant ideas for now and no discussion about an imaginary buff beeingoverpowered (so missing numbers intentionally))just some ideas, if you have some too, please feel free to add.Thanks for listeningConcordant<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm still learning the ropes as raiding troub and I find I have plenty to do atm. But I get (and like) your ideas How about: - prevent next AE except direct on target

[Pogopuschel]

> prevent next AE except direct on targetThere's an AA line (STR?) that has 30s AoE prevention as last skill.Concerning Troubadour mezzes. They can help when soloing, other than that:- They do not work on epics - fine with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />- They do not work on seemingly half of the instanced level 68+ mobs (not only the nameds), not because they have no effect, but because the (and I quote) "Target is [too] powerful". What's up with that?@ConcordantI could not agree more about your initial posting, I feel the same about every single point in it. And the ideas to spice it all up a little@IspiderlYou're missing the point. It's about the worth/fun of playing a Troubadour in a group or raid. It's not about PvP (which btw I know nothing about). The level you have _does_ make a difference. It is a fact that Troubadours do not scale well. This posting is not whining, it is an attempt to make things more interesting for Troubadours. You say you're not 100% happy with your char either, so why not communicate that? Yes there's a lot of crappy postings and whiners, but this thread and the topic starter does not belong in that corner. Just accept that there's people who actively think and try to communicate their thoughts about balancing it a bit, like the Troubadour class was (or maybe still is?) in the levels between 30 and 40. What is not said, will not be heard.@DPS-discussion900 DPS for a Troubadour? A spike, and a huge one. Maybe when max. self-buffed and in a mixed group of fighters and mages (so you get a bit of both buff-worlds), which usually is not the norm. In raids, I'm normally grouped with 4 mages and a healer, and except Opus (sometimes) I have no truely DPS-enhancing spells on myself (well, most songs etc help a little bit, I admit), and probably have none from the other group members as well. DPS varies between 380 and 600, averaging just below 500. This is with half master, half ad3 spells/songs. Have yet to see any bard get significantly above that (most bards that I know get these values). Can be easily out-dpsed by any healer class when the player is halfway good. If that is the case on raids, it's usually only trash mobs, or the healer didn't understand why he was invited <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Pogopuschel on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 AM</span>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Pogopuschel wrote:> prevent next AE except direct on targetThere's an AA line (STR?) that has 30s AoE prevention as last skill.</blockquote><hr>I know of that skill and use it, It's a group buff. And we have the self AE avoid AP in ste same line for a 10s AE prevention.What I meant was another skill that wopuld make another person (just one) who is in your group / raid imune for an AE. (eg. prevent AE on the healer in the MT group so he can stand in the AE to keep the MT or, or even better, toss it on the MT)<p>Message Edited by Dwergux on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 PM</span>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pogopuschel wrote:<BR>>prevent next AE except direct on target<BR><BR>There's an AA line (STR?) that has 30s AoE prevention as last skill.<BR><BR>Concerning Troubadour mezzes. They can help when soloing, other than that:<BR>- They do not work on epics - fine with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>- They do not work on seemingly half of the instanced level 68+ mobs (not only the nameds), not because they have no effect, but because the (and I quote) "Target is [too] powerful". What's up with that?<BR><BR>@Concordant<BR>I could not agree more about your initial posting, I feel the same about every single point in it. And the ideas to spice it all up a little<BR><BR>@Ispiderl<BR>You're missing the point. It's about the worth/fun of playing a Troubadour in a group or raid. It's not about PvP (which btw I know nothing about). The level you have _does_ make a difference. It is a fact that Troubadours do not scale well. This posting is not whining, it is an attempt to make things more interesting for Troubadours. You say you're not 100% happy with your char either, so why not communicate that? Yes there's a lot of crappy postings and whiners, but this thread and the topic starter does not belong in that corner. Just accept that there's people who actively think and try to communicate their thoughts about balancing it a bit, like the Troubadour class was (or maybe still is?) in the levels between 30 and 40. What is not said, will not be heard.<BR><FONT color=#ff3366>refer to my previous post, clearly his experience in pvp non-raiding tier4 can gives him the same knowledge and background for the issues we have in RAIDING TIER 7..the dude just does not understand.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3366></FONT><BR>@DPS-discussion<BR>900 DPS for a Troubadour? A spike, and a huge one. Maybe when max. self-buffed and in a mixed group of fighters and mages (so you get a bit of both buff-worlds), which usually is not the norm. In raids, I'm normally grouped with 4 mages and a healer, and except Opus (sometimes) I have no truely DPS-enhancing spells on myself (well, most songs etc help a little bit, I admit), and probably have none from the other group members as well. DPS varies between 380 and 600, averaging just below 500. This is with half master, half ad3 spells/songs. Have yet to see any bard get significantly above that (most bards that I know get these values). Can be easily out-dpsed by any healer class when the player is halfway good. If that is the case on raids, it's usually only trash mobs, or the healer didn't understand why he was invited <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>not to stroke my own ego, but 380 seems pretty low for even our low end dps. on average the min i hit single target is 500 the max i occasionally hit 1k single target  (melee)</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>what weapons are you using and are you close to stat-cap'd in str/agi/int in a group? is the majority of your dps ranged based? the other troub in my guild likes to stay ranged and his dps hovers around 380-500. i personally prefer to melee and eat most AEs on trash and most named to keep my dps up there (besides healers are in your group for a reason, to heal you if you are hit.)  as for healers nuking those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] furies are nice at healing and doing decent dps</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Pogopuschel]

@VericMain hand weapon: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NTI1MDQ4NjEw">Adamantine Dragonfang</a>Offhand weapon: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NTg5MTg2ODgz">Oblivion's Edge</a>I go melee mostly. There's a few solo encounters with AoEs that still one-shoot me. I get around 380dps on mobs with fewer hitpoints (< 200,000) because I keep all my debuffs up all the time, and use PoM and Jester's whenever possible. This takes time in the beginning, so I'm slowly climbing the DPS ladder up. DPS consolidates around 500 usually if it's a 300,000+ HP encounter.Usually I am raid-grouped with- Templar/other healer- Conjurer- Wizard- Illusionist- WarlockCurrent default buffs are:<ul><li>Bria's Inspiring Ballad (Master I)</li><li>Alim's Serene Serenade (Adept I, 40% is 40% is 40% <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</li><li>Rousing Opus (Adept III)</li><li>Dove Song (Adept III)</li><li>Aria of Exaltation (Adept III)</li></ul>Dove song shoots some group members over their skill caps, but it's still worth it in my opinion. For nameds, I put in one of the following for resists:<ul><li>Arcane Dissertation (Master I)</li><li>Elemental Concerto (Master I)</li></ul>My own skills are nowhere near cap, perhaps that is the problem. STR is probably around 270, would have to check that (which is hard while I'm at work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)...I may post some additions to this posting later. Your concern/help is greatly appreciated - because after some months of slacking with this character, I rediscovered him and play him a lot, and I love it despite past nerfs (mainly mezzes annoy me).<p>Message Edited by Pogopuschel on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 AM</span>

[VericSauvari]

<DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pogopuschel wrote:<BR>@Veric<BR>Main hand weapon: <A href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NTI1MDQ4NjEw" target=_blank>Adamantine Dragonfang</A><BR>Offhand weapon: <A href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NTg5MTg2ODgz" target=_blank>Oblivion's Edge</A><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>great weapons however i would suggest getting a grinning dirk of horror and if possible wyrmslayer/claymore, the delays/procs on those weapons are what make them superior to those. if your guild can take down 3 princes you may want the DW dirk that drops. for the LOVE OF GOD don't go 1h..its a waste of a weapon in a troubs hands in my opinion.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I go melee mostly. There's a few solo encounters with AoEs that still one-shoot me. I get around 380dps on mobs with fewer hitpoints (< 200,000) because I keep all my debuffs up all the time, and use PoM and Jester's whenever possible. This takes time in the beginning, so I'm slowly climbing the DPS ladder up. DPS consolidates around 500 usually if it's a 300,000+ HP encounter.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>personally i don't have any issues landing debuffs + dps. if there is a dirge in the raid you could arrange to have have him/her to  land zander or discante for you (pre-arranged of course.) if you put PoM up make sure you are in melee range so you can at least still throw off CA's + spells. don't forget for group encounters you can also debuff-toggle all 4 of your group debuffs for proc+PoM damage. make sure to get off ALL CA/Spells that can proc PoM even if it throws off your cycle, if it can proc dissonet note throw it in (bellow, chant etc.)</FONT></P><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> <P><BR>Usually I am raid-grouped with<BR>- Templar/other healer -<FONT color=#ff0000> i would switch this with a fury (int buff for you) or a defiler. i like defilers for procs and wards for more melee time. a inquis is also ideal for you(and only you..the casters would get little out of an inquis&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  due to act of faith proc and dps mod.</FONT><BR>- Conjurer - <FONT color=#ff0000>have him proc you, im pretty ignorant when it comes to conjurers and do not know their recast times.</FONT><BR>- Wizard - <FONT color=#ff0000>have him proc you, throw jesters on him 1st</FONT><BR>- Illusionist - <FONT color=#ff0000>make that illusionist put up synergy on you and haste. you are as much as a caster as anyone else and dynanism will proc like crazy on you. throw jesters on him 2rd. my groups illusionist can match T1-T2 consistantly.</FONT><BR>- Warlock <FONT color=#ff0000>- have him proc you, depending on your warlock, throw jesters on him 3rd. the warlock i throw this on 1st can 80% of the time outdps T1 single target (which is exceptionally well) so i sometimes jester him 1st or 2nd.</FONT><BR><BR>Current default buffs are:<BR></P> <UL> <LI>Bria's Inspiring Ballad (Master I)<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>- some fights that are short you don't even need this up with the illusionist. for a lot of trash you may want to consider swapping this for raxxyl, selfbuff or opus.</FONT></LI> <LI>Alin's Serene Serenade (Adept I, 40% is 40% is 40% <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR>-<FONT color=#ff0000> uh so? it may be a small change with the "if hit" deaggro from a1 to a3/master but its still a change, the master is cheap at least on crushbone. maybe you can get your guild to donate some $ to pay for it since it helps the raid directly.</FONT></LI> <LI>Rousing Opus (Adept III)<BR><FONT color=#cc0000>- drop opus and pick up a haste item, also your grouped with an illusionist. he buffs haste. you are the only one with the exception of the conjurors pets that uses haste and usually an illusionist will be buffing the conj pet. if you were in a more scout/fighter oriented group you would have opus up more oftem.  in your group setup i would only put up opus if i have a spare conc</FONT></LI> <LI>Dove Song (Adept III)<BR><FONT color=#cc0000>- uuh...why? replace this with either your self buff or raxxyl..you have to </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cc0000>be selfish sometimes if your stats are </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>nowhere near cap in the group. a lot of AA's and caster buffs / gear also raise these dove song stats.</FONT></LI> <LI>Aria of Exaltation (Adept III)</LI></UL><BR>Dove song shoots some group members over their skill caps, but it's still worth it in my opinion. For nameds, I put in one of the following for resists:<BR> <UL> <LI>Arcane Dissertation (Master I)<BR><FONT color=#cc0000>your group members should be picking up resist gear. i'd only put this up if they cannot hit 7-8k grouped</FONT></LI> <LI>Elemental Concerto (Master I)</LI> <LI>  <FONT color=#ff0000>see above</FONT></LI></UL><BR><BR>My own skills are nowhere near cap, perhaps that is the problem. STR is probably around 270, would have to check that (which is hard while I'm at work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)...<BR>I may post some additions to this posting later. Your concern/help is greatly appreciated - because after some months of slacking with this character, I rediscovered him and play him a lot, and I love it despite past nerfs (mainly mezzes annoy me). <P><FONT color=#ff0000>gear wise try and pickup a few proc items, get the pink orb that procs char (mystical orb collection quest), dragonbone girdle HQ and whatever other proc related gear you can get your hands on.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>i hope some of this helped, i by no means consider myself a great troubador just a decent one. unfortunately it seems a lot of the great troubs who used to post have quit the game or sold the characters.</FONT></DIV>

[Pogopuschel]

Thanks for your reply, I'll consider your advice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It really seems to me that I cannot do much more on the active part, since I very rarely auto-attack, always got at least one skill/spell ready.As for Dove Song, I can only talk for myself but my resists in the group are around 5000ish unless I equip special gear. I only started serious raiding (meaning more than one a week) three weeks ago, so I still lack decent gear. I actually don't remember if or how many buffs are on me, however I'm pretty confident that I got no haste buff on me. I used to wear FBSS for a long time because of the haste mod, recently replaced it with <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=MTI2MDg2MDQwNg==">Belt of the Doomflight</a> because of the nice resist buffs, DPS went down quite a bit of course...Concerning the switch from Opus to Raxxyl I found Opus to be more beneficial to myself. What I'd like to know if the speef buff also goes for skill attacks or if it is only for auto attacks. If that is the case, my observations would be coincidence apparently because like I said above, I rarely (have to) auto-attack.And I've seen a parse of Pain in HoS somewhere on the forums... man must I suck <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pogopuschel wrote:<BR>Thanks for your reply, I'll consider your advice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>It really seems to me that I cannot do much more on the active part, since I very rarely auto-attack, always got at least one skill/spell ready.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>i believe someone parsed approx 10% of your dps is autoattack, with slow delay weapons with a good stretch of min/max you can autoattack with melee for 800+ (crits as well up to 1k-1.3kish)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>as for Dove Song, I can only talk for myself but my resists in the group are around 5000ish unless I equip special gear. I only started serious raiding (meaning more than one a week) three weeks ago, so I still lack decent gear. I actually don't remember if or how many buffs are on me, however I'm pretty confident that I got no haste buff on me. I used to wear FBSS for a long time because of the haste mod, recently replaced it with <A href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=MTI2MDg2MDQwNg==" target=_blank>Belt of the Doomflight</A> because of the nice resist buffs, DPS went down quite a bit of course...</P> <P>Concerning the switch from Opus to Raxxyl I found Opus to be more beneficial to myself. What I'd like to know if the speef buff also goes for skill attacks or if it is only for auto attacks. If that is the case, my observations would be coincidence apparently because like I said above, I rarely (have to) auto-attack.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>For resist gear just buy jewelery resist gear. Your group has issues if they cannot get at least 8k+ per resist on demand (swapping gear in and out) and still have really really bad stats. Also remember haste buffs effect auto-attack only (and pets), so if you do not autoattack much you don't NEED to put up opus <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P> <P><BR>And I've seen a parse of Pain in HoS somewhere on the forums... man must I suck <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>pain and suffering are not good mobs to judge your dps. you rarely miss and don't have to range it it because of ae. you gotta judge what you consistantly do for trash + names imo. i have hit 900+ on pain and suffering in hos</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Pogopuschel]

Well my last parse on Pain was 570, hence the "sucking" part <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><B>EDIT</b>Reading my own last posting, I think I need to clarify one thing, which came out wrong:I said I always got an ability to use at any time. What I meant to say is that I have (varying) cycles that allow me to use the abilities in a sequence so that- I almost never have the situation of not being able to use any ability- I never auto-attack, unless I have to, meaning I spam the skills.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Pogopuschel on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[Lanikka]

<P>I don't think that eq2 was meant to entirely be a race to the endgame, so I think even me at level 41 can say something about the class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Troubadour is my favorite character. I spent all of my money on a couple of nice daggers (I am poor so all my spells are only adept I) but I still do really good damage as long as I keep up constant attacks. I never seem to run out of power. I am not bored because I make up for my ordinarily low dps by actively kicking the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of mobs. I even do good on just plain auto-attack. Maybe things get boring after 50, but I love my troubador and she is anything but a lazy buffbot on constant autofollow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Antipalad]

After lvl 50 our scaling goes totally awry, nothing about boring or not.

[Reluctant_Messiah]

<P>I hope I don't get bashed too hard for jumping in on this thread.  I don't come in this forum too often but I spotted this and couldn't help but read through it.  It's an opinion somewhat near and dear to my own heart despite not playing a Troub simply because this is the <STRONG><EM>reason</EM></STRONG> I don't play one.  And I've just got to add my own 2 bits :smileywink:  To warn, at risk of even further bashing, I'm going to bring the EQ Live bard into this...  And just so I don't have to keep repeating it later, any references to EQ Live bards are aimed at the earlier pre-PoP times before (IMO) they began to suffer much the same fate as being discussed in this thread.</P> <P>I'm not even sure it's fair to say that they're "boring" per se, it's just that they're no <STRONG><EM>more</EM></STRONG> interesting than any other class available.  The bard, to me, has always been about sacrificing personal power for impressive and interesting group/raid benefit.  They seem to have gotten the sacrifice part right but where's the benefit?  The buffs and debuffs available to EQ2 bards are just not that outstanding in comparison to those available to other buffers and debuffers (which in EQ2 is darn near every other class).  There's just nothing especially powerful or unique about them.  Are there 1 or 2 buffs/debuffs that aren't available in some form to another class?  Sure.  But what buffing/debuffing class can't say the same?  Personal weakness compared to all other classes with not nearly enough compensation in the form of what a bard brings to a group/raid...</P> <P>I played a bard in EQ1 from the release of the first expansion up until this year pretty steadily.  I got a new song (spell) every level.  Nearly all of them had multiple effects and were almost all unique not just from previous songs but to the class.  (Note - I don't expect such an extreme in EQ2, it's obviously not set up that way :smileywink: just using this to make a point.)  Even in the case of songs that were in some way "upgrades", the secondary effects often differed, leaving the choice for which was truly "better" and when up to the player.  This kind of variety and especially uniqueness is one of the things sorely missing from the EQ2 bard, imo.</P> <P>One of the other important factors has been very, very hard for me to pin down.  It involves that difference that was observable between a good bard, an average bard and a slacktastic bot-bard type :smileywink:  It's not that other classes didn't require skill or that they didn't have their good and bad players, which were often just as obvious.  To me, what seemed to set the bard apart in this area was that what <EM><STRONG>could be</STRONG></EM> done with the class was <STRONG><EM>more</EM></STRONG> limited by the player than the class itself.  It wasn't just that the bard was a constantly active class, it was that even playing at the very best of my abilities - I <EM>literally</EM> could not use every <STRONG>USEFUL</STRONG> skill/trick/ability at a bard's disposal all the time.</P> <P>An Troub may be able to stay pretty active just as others here like Mishrac have said with the likes of Jester, PoM and keeping debuffs up.  But that's it - that's exactly the same thing any other Troub would be doing to stay active because it's all that's available AND the overall effect is not much greater or <EM>different</EM> than what anyone else brings to the table.  'How is that really any different than what any other class would be doing in the same situation?', you  might ask.  It isn't, really.  But then, that's the problem... :smileysad:</P>

[TalanRM]

I think that you have hit the nail on the head Relunctant. Bards (Troubs or Dirges) should be about versitility and group enhancement (or crowd control/ mob crippling). In EQ1 a group would adapt their tactics around the available classes, particularly classes like bards that could affect travel, pulling, crowd control, stop mobs fleeing etc. When I ask how a group would change their tactics with an EQ2 bard the answer is they wouldn't. If there is no tactical change where is the flavour of the class?

[Pogopuschel]

> I don't think that eq2 was meant to entirely be a > race to the endgame, so I think even me at level 41 > can say something about the class I or probably even we certainly didn't mean to say that players who have not reached the "endgame" with their characters yet can't have a word, although Ispiderl likes to make it sound like that. We were merely saying that these players cannot possibly know how far the Troubadour class, the further they level, fall behind in comparison to other classes.I still love to play my Troubadour, simply because I like raiding and the "endgame", but I think I'd even be more happy had I chosen a different char class. I'm on my way to find out with a few more toons, rapidly approaching the higher levels <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dwergux]

Since we were discussing raid group setup vs. buffs here. I'll have a go (and an open mind for suggestions):I'm normally grouped with:- Troubadour (me)- Necromancer- Conjuror- Ranger- Warden- Paladin(I know this is not THE best group, but considering our raidforce (often 4 paladins etc) and our social raiding ideology (when you are of the right level you can join, if you were asked to leave the last raid we cannot ask you to leave the current one) it's about as good as it gets)In this setup I run:- Raxxl (M1)- Aria (M1)- Opus (Ad 3)- Bria's (Ad 3)- Alin's (M1)The conj has seed on the Ranger and Paladin (I tend to cast more spells, melee less than the paladin). I'm not concerned about my personal DPS but the best DPS out of this group.

[Tri]

New Update !!! Troubs are now the second least played class at level 70 !!! And there are only 40 less coercers. And don't forget troub is a neutral class <span>:smileywink: All the good aligned classes have more players, apart from the troub and the warden I know we can do it, just a bit more and we can be the least played class, rejoice !! </span> <div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Triag wrote:New Update !!!Troubs are now the second least played class at level 70 !!!And there are only 40 less coercers. And don't forget troub is a neutral class <span>:smileywink:All the good aligned classes have more players, apart from the troub and the wardenI know we can do it, just a bit more and we can be the least played class, rejoice !!</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Will that mean Troubadour Masters will drop in price due to the lower demand? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (always look on the bright side of life)

[Cuz]

No it'll mean that transmutaters will love us a bit more.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> Troubs are now the second least played class at level 70 !!!<BR>> And there are only 40 less coercers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ouch!! </DIV>

[Spider]

<P>well just got back into the states  and i was gonna post  some responces to things but theres cetrain people who will jsut never accept that someone at lower level can know about higher lvl issues  i mean god forbid people accualy READ to lern b4 they get there and TALK to all the teir 7 raiding troubs on there server on a daily basis  it still apperantly means they know nothign  so w/e </P> <P>but as to the one persons comments about temp power regen buffs and such that are single target active use stuff i think thats a fantastic idea </P> <P>and to balance it heck they could even  give them a power upkeep like on our main debuffs </P> <P>it would give us a few more tricks to make things interesting </P> <P>but just because we can be made more interesting by no means  says we suck because despite the vocal minority on here we dont plain and simple  </P> <P> </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <P>well just got back into the states  and i was gonna post  some responces to things but theres cetrain people who will jsut never accept that someone at lower level can know about higher lvl issues  i mean god forbid people accualy READ to lern b4 they get there and TALK to all the teir 7 raiding troubs on there server on a daily basis  it still apperantly means they know nothign  so w/e </P> <P>but as to the one persons comments about temp power regen buffs and such that are single target active use stuff i think thats a fantastic idea </P> <P>and to balance it heck they could even  give them a power upkeep like on our main debuffs </P> <P>it would give us a few more tricks to make things interesting </P> <P>but just because we can be made more interesting by no means  says we suck because despite the vocal minority on here we dont plain and simple  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The vocal minority? If 5 people say we suck that's like half of the entire troub population all servers combined :p