Am I missing something or is Charm completely pointless?

[Siniac]

<div></div>I have been working my trouby alt up just for kicks.  He has been by far the hardest alt I have leveled (70 necro, 70 guard, 32 warlock, 37 templar, 36 fury) even though I have twinked him a fair bit.  Fun to play though.   I have been looking forward to charm since I enjoy pets.  Just hit 20, scribed my Master 1 charm and headed out to give it a go.hmmmm.....  2.5 second cast time... lasts 8 seconds (seems to break after about 4 most of the time.)I don't get it.  It doesnt add dps because during that 2.5 seconds I am not doing dps and the few hits the charmed pet gets off in the few seconds before it breaks can't be more than I would do if I just auto attacked and cast dps arts all that time.It seems useless as crowd control since it takes forever to cast and breaks just about as fast as you can cast it.  Better to just do dps for that time. (dead mobs are crowd controled mobs <span>:smileywink:</span> )Does it have some use that I am missing or should I just take this one off my hot bar and ignore it.Siniaq, the confused newbie Troubador.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Siniac on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 AM</span>

[terzaghi]

My use for it is to pull an add out of the middle of my group so that I can mez and not worry about it breaking. <div></div>

[Siniac]

<blockquote><hr>terzaghi wrote:My use for it is to pull an add out of the middle of my group so that I can mez and not worry about it breaking. <div></div><hr></blockquote>We get our first mes at 50 right?

[terzaghi]

Correct.<div></div>

[Mew]

Bard charm got solidly whacked by the nerf stick in LU 24.   Until you get mez at lvl 50 do you can do as suggested above there is little use to it.  I can charm a mob and it gives those 8 secs of extra dps as it starts to whack on its buddies but then it aggroes on me and its really hard for the tank to taunt off.  The refresh on casting is so long that either you or the mob is dead long before you can cast it again.  Its not completely useless but nearly so.  Certainly, its makes soloing a lot harder and slower.  I find my 23 troubador does much better in groups and really is lousy to solo.  Before LU 24 I would solo most of the time and successfully take on yellow cons. Now I can barely handle some blues and almost never whites.  Sorry, if this sounds like a rant.  I merely meant to state my observations.<div></div>

[Zygwen]

It is not completely useless. I use it on occations solo or in groups. Solo charming on pull can help get the first mob in a multi mob group dead faster. Usualy the first mob is dead before charm breaks. One of the advantages of charming while soloing is that I find I use less mana this way. Charm is a lot riskier than before but it is still very powerful and as the old saying goes, play with fire, get burnt. Keep in mind that lower level charms have shorter durations. I didn't use charm much till I hit 50+. Then again, I didn't need to charm back then either. <div></div>

[Mishrac]

Well to be honest you can remove it from your hot bar untill you hit lv 62 and get the last charm... and it lasts for amasing 14 sec. I just use it when i get jumped by scout mobs and they are more then 1, and con blue. Well i just use it as a fun spell then as a help in killing anything harder then blue con. I usually pull with Kias or Disheartening Discante.

[Emerix]

<P>okay well i got the master version of the t7 spell . this charm i use rather often should the tank pull too many mobs in heroic groups . helps the healers a lot. wsa quite good while duoing POA with a paly for the claymore line . in multiple mob encounters i simply charmed one after pull and let it help us killing the others .</P> <P>the higher your charm ((like master ) the higher the damage the mob does . so that is usefull .</P>

[thorvang]

i use the t7 master charm in groups fairly often. be it the tank pulls more than one encounter and i use the charmed pet as some dps and healer relief or some mob is beating on healers or nukers without the tank noticing (pugs mostly <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). it instantly stops the mobs target getting damage and generates a fair amount of hate so i'm able to get the mob beating on me most of the time.the other day i've been in some of those tfd instances with a zerker and ranger. at one point the ranger got totally lost and due to lag half a dozen adds jumped me and the zerker. with charm, mezz and stun i have been able to control most of those and allowing us to beat them without dying.so it has it's uses i guess.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 PM</span>

[FatedByChan]

<P>I've only found one decent use for it; pulling the table named in Halls of Fate. I find that alot of grinding tanks can't quite survive the name's debilitating blow that does x4 or however much damage it is, so I charm a nearby enemy, have it pull the named, and the debilitating thingy kills the charmed mob before the charm can break.</P> <P> </P> <P>Other then that I don't feel the charmed enemy out dpses me for the 14 seconds its charmed, so I don't use it...unless I want to tick off our healer.</P>

[Seddo]

Well our strongest charm has a duration of 14 seconds. When fighting a grp of three solo this is pretty handy. you cast charm at one of the mobs, see which mobs he attacks and then mezz the one thats still running to you. When the charm breaks youll be able to mezz the one that was charmed, kill the wounded mob, remezz the former charmed one, kill the second, his mezz should be gone by now, and then finally the last one. Works good and you dont loose much health and power, even to white con!<div></div>

[Mishrac]

Yes Sedde that stratigy works fine for us that got the 14 sec charm at lvl 62 but for lower lvls its just crap... use it as a fun spell in group... after lvl 50 you can start concentrate on being a back up Crowd Controler.

[Siniac]

Well I have played around with it a bit more and have pretty much decided I am not missing anything, its pointless.  So off the hot bar it goes for 40 levels or so till it goes up to the incredibly game unbalencing duration of 14 seconds.So now my question is this:  With my other characters, as I was grouping on my way up, I have always kind of considered crowd control to be one of the defining characteristics of troubadors.  Get a trouby and you get sweet buffs and decent second rate crowd control.  Along with chanters it was "thier thing"  If SOE has taken that away whats "our thing" now?  Buff bot?  any rumours about the new vision for us... or are we 'working as intended'<div></div>

[Zapdafi]

<DIV>nope, you are not missing anything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i use it on group mobs too except ill beat the mob to red before i charm it as it looses the debuffs of the group when charm is over. I then target through it in order to max damage on whoever it chooses and also so its the first thing i kill after charm breaks. mainly used for doing writs if i feel like doing something a tad different, but overall, i hardly ever use it.</DIV>

[Mishrac]

Siniac no not a word from the devs if you look at the "how to imropve the class" thread al of us are talking about the lack of crowd control. And not a word from the devs if this is the way the Trub shall go to become a buff bot. We did get an answer and they just told us "live with it there is nothing you can do to make this change from not go live"... so here we are with high lvl characters that are not what they intended to be during the start up. But hey it is always fun to see the other classes doing greate since we are not... and we are bards so thats all we care about.<p>Message Edited by Mishrac on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Zygwen]

Well I can tell you that Troubador Mez is vastly superior to the Swashbuckler one in that you can keep one mob perma mezed while Swashbucklers can't. Bards have the heaviest focus on utility of the scouts. I think this is partly what causes the attitude of bards being buff bots. However, in doing so, you discount a bards ability to debuff and for troubadors, crowd control. Basicaly, Bards are jack of all trades. You can say they have a bit of everything or that they suck at everything. Just a question of perception. My troubador spent last night farming named mobs in RoV and EL and RE duoed with a Monk and I must say, all those tricks do come in handy. <div></div>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zygwen wrote:all those tricks do come in handy. <div></div><hr></blockquote>While doing absolutely nothing in raids ... which is where we are glorified buff bots.</div>

[ligiguinesmule]

<DIV>hehe seems 95% of the people out there don't realize how amazing any charm skill can be on a pvp server.  From reading the thread it seems u guys are concentrating on its pve uses,  but for those out there on pvp servers here's a great use for charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In grp vs grp pvp charm the mt or healer then evac.  He'll evac with your group and become aggro when u guys respawn at the evac point.  Almost everytime even if the grp u evaced him from has multiple evacers they have no clue what happened before the charmed person is dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very nice skill if u wanna screw with the opposing faction's raid hehe</DIV>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>ligiguinesmule wrote:<div>hehe seems 95% of the people out there don't realize how amazing any charm skill can be on a pvp server.  From reading the thread it seems u guys are concentrating on its pve uses,  but for those out there on pvp servers here's a great use for charm.</div> <div> </div> <div>In grp vs grp pvp charm the mt or healer then evac.  He'll evac with your group and become aggro when u guys respawn at the evac point.  Almost everytime even if the grp u evaced him from has multiple evacers they have no clue what happened before the charmed person is dead.</div> <div> </div> <div>Very nice skill if u wanna screw with the opposing faction's raid hehe</div><hr></blockquote>Not sure when the last time ya tried that was but last few times ive tried that,  hasnt worked since theyve changed everyones evac points. It does seem to evac them with ya, but it sends them to their new own unique evac points.. . still though, good spell to have in pvp.. <div></div>

[Spider]

<P>its got a lot more versatility than any of you are considering </P> <P>ive comented this in other threads and i think peopel are missing that  (while we could use it being a few seconds longer) this is in many ways your bread and butter</P> <P>let me throw out a few examples  of uses in pvp and pve</P> <P> </P> <P>1 soling a  (person or mob)      your fighting along and barely holding your own desperately waiting for yours skills to refresh  u cram mob/person  stealth and in a few seconds u have most of your skills bakc hit em with the from stealth attack and all your now refreshed skills to finish them off</P> <P> 2 out of group high lvl healers have become common on pvp servers. our charm is the ONLY charm that can charm a player  AND make them attack there own faction   so u charm the guy your fighting thats getting out of group assistance and you sick them on ther eown high lvl healer who upon seeing themselves get attack WILL 99% of the time let  off with there biggest attack b4 they know what s goin on  most often oneshotting the guy u were fighting  </P> <P>then u can simply evac or run from the 70 b4 they let off on u </P> <P> </P> <P>not to mention theres the ever present oh crap mob on the healer  so u charm it and the healer gets a few moment break and then u sick it on whatever else your fighting or u make it follow the tank so taht when the charm wears off the healer is no longer the target and the tank can easly taunt it onto them and they even got a break long enuff to get the situation under control </P><p>Message Edited by lspiderl on <span class=date_text>09-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:50 PM</span>

[Emerix]

Actually theres this one fight in uhm .. Lyceum or HOS with those 4 adds that do a LOT of damage .. charming one of them is like 2k more dps for the raid . even if its only for 15 seconds .. long enough to get the coercer back up so he can recharm .

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> Actually theres this one fight in uhm .. Lyceum or HOS with those 4 adds that do a LOT of damage .. charming one of them is like 2k more dps for the raid . even if its only for 15 seconds .. long enough to get the coercer back up so he can recharm .<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>exactly theres a TON of great uses for it and while it would be nice if it was a few seconds longer its far from worhless  in fact i dare say its our bread and butter in many situations

[Siniac]

Some of the suggestions here are fairly good and I think I may find a few uses for it once I get up to 50+.  I still think its basically useless at the lower levels though.   The level 20 Master 1 version has basically the same duration as cast time.  It takes 2.5 seconds to cast and it never lasts more than 3 or 4 at max.  If it ever actually lasted the full 8 seconds it would be useful, barely.   With a 2.5 second cast time and 3 second duration it's just not.On a positive note I am getting much much more proficent at soloing.  It's still more efficent to chain pull blues but I can do yellows now if I need to. Siniaq  32 TroubSiniacc 70 NecroSiniak 70 GuardSinac 42 Fury<div></div>

[Rampagious]

As pointless as it is, I use it now, whereas I never ever used it before in playing EQ2 since release.<div></div>

[Krescendo]

<P>My 23 troub uses it solo or small groups. In close fights, getting off some extra dps  (remember its doubled, effectively because the charm you are gonna have to fight later takes damage as well, unless inadvertenly healed) with a chance to fire off one more song or spell before engaged, can make THE difference when you are pushing it. Provided it lands and stays up long enough to cast something else, lol. </P> <P>That said, doubling the duration at all levels would not over balance troubs. Neither would the ability to lock down 2 mobs at once. The only downside would be stepping on illusionists, who also deserve to bring something special.</P>

[Rogotop]

charm is one of the best spells for pulling in the game.charm > social aggrofor example, if you cant get a clean  body pull on a room (such as in forsaken city) you can use charm to gaurantee that you get a solo pull. (works great for killing PH's without having to clear the entire room)<div></div>

[Spider]

<P>hehe i cant seem to get enuff of my troub in pvp in general  a friends group was getting terrorized by a group of q's in wcw the other day so i hop on my troub and trepeatedly wiped out  an even con and 5 greens  over and over and over and they could barely touch me </P> <P>currently 28 with many masters  ( cheap troub masters ftw)  and better than common crafted gear  </P> <P>charm is extreemely helpfull in stoping someone from zoning as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> charm as ther ebreaking for the zone  then run far away from the zone line and  get ready to snare lol </P>