Making Things Right (Correcting old Rants)

[Toonmaster]

<DIV>I was a very vocal toon - with strong objections to the Troub changes.  I talked about us leaving in droves - and accused the person of not understanding the Troub class and our interest in their unique abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My strong objections was based on what you said you were going to do - in fact you made a different change that was slightly less extreem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(It crosses my mind that it was a stratagy to say it was really bad - and then make it not quite so bad so we would not be as upset.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Due to the modification I am withdrawing my extreem objection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not enjoy the class he way I did - and there are still several problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The charm is useless - the mez has value but created much less value for the troub.  Nezara almost demands the ability to mez - and group mez - Troub's cant really do the job in most situations.  It is odd that a zone would be created that demands one particular class.  I know there are fabled groups that can deal with the zone but they are the exception.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We still can't solo very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My enthusiam for the Troubador was a 9 on the scale of 1 to 10... it is now a 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suppose that thanks are in order for not totally distroying the class - you came close but you just damaged it signifantly you did not distroy it.</DIV>

[Mawie]

<P>What is interesting is I found after the "disastrous" troub changes, I can actually solo much more efficiently. I actually enjoy my troubador more because of this.</P>

[Kraz]

Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i doubt we solo better now than before, but what got better is that guildies come to help bards now when they ask for help to kill mobs and no longer tell you to go solo it cause everyone knows that our charm and mezz got nerfed

[Seddo]

<div></div>Ok I really got the feeling that most everyone is upset about the troub has he currenly is. I suppose with so much whining (no offense!) everywhere, or rather I HOPE, that some changes will be made with the comming LU's.Oh, and about the City of Nizara - the zone really demands a Coercer or Illusionist, we tried it with me as only mezzer, only killed the first two nameds, thing we barly scratched the surface of the zone before we had to give up. Even with a whole grp equipted in T7 legendary and better, and a Raid-MT-Guardian we really struggeled without a good mezzer. Before LU24 a troubador would have been enough to control the pulls. One charmed 2 mezzed, beating the mobs one by one...Really hope to get deeper into the zone sometime soon, still havent completed the rift quest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font size="1">Edit: Corrected a typing error!</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Seddo on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 AM</span>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never depended on mez and charm to solo, ever... so basically, I've not had to change anything about my playstyle and gotten more damage in the long run. Part of it has to do with the increase in damage (part of that huge "nerf" in that LU, because several of our spells had increases in their damage), the other has to do with the fact that I try to keep my INT as high as possible so I can get the most amount of damage possible.</P> <P>I also find the AAs <EM>very</EM> useful in soloing.</P>

[loveybutt]

Personally, I never wasted a slot on charm before the LU. So now I use it waaay more often then before. True our mezz was 'nerfed', but now i just use my new cool charm like i would a mezz, AND that actually adds extra dps (when the mob starts beatin on his buddy). hobs <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>I never depended on mez and charm to solo, ever</STRONG>... so basically, I've not had to change anything about my playstyle and gotten more damage in the long run. Part of it has to do with the increase in damage (part of that huge "nerf" in that LU, because several of our spells had increases in their damage), the other has to do with the fact that I try to keep my INT as high as possible so I can get the most amount of damage possible.</P> <P>I also find the AAs <EM>very</EM> useful in soloing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, you never played a troubador to the full extent and pushed the boundaries of what was "possible".  Charm was an incredible dps boost that we are nowhere near now.  Mez was our way to control a difficult situation and focus on individual mobs.</P> <P>We can do okay, but we're nowhere near what we were.<BR></P>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>I never depended on mez and charm to solo, ever</STRONG>... so basically, I've not had to change anything about my playstyle and gotten more damage in the long run. Part of it has to do with the increase in damage (part of that huge "nerf" in that LU, because several of our spells had increases in their damage), the other has to do with the fact that I try to keep my INT as high as possible so I can get the most amount of damage possible.</P> <P>I also find the AAs <EM>very</EM> useful in soloing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, you never played a troubador to the full extent and pushed the boundaries of what was "possible".  Charm was an incredible dps boost that we are nowhere near now.  Mez was our way to control a difficult situation and focus on individual mobs.</P> <P>We can do okay, but we're nowhere near what we were.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I did not say I never used it... I said I did not depend on it solely for soloing. There is a huge difference.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>I never depended on mez and charm to solo, ever</STRONG>... so basically, I've not had to change anything about my playstyle and gotten more damage in the long run. Part of it has to do with the increase in damage (part of that huge "nerf" in that LU, because several of our spells had increases in their damage), the other has to do with the fact that I try to keep my INT as high as possible so I can get the most amount of damage possible.</P> <P>I also find the AAs <EM>very</EM> useful in soloing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, you never played a troubador to the full extent and pushed the boundaries of what was "possible".  Charm was an incredible dps boost that we are nowhere near now.  Mez was our way to control a difficult situation and focus on individual mobs.</P> <P>We can do okay, but we're nowhere near what we were.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I did not say I never used it... I said I did not depend on it solely for soloing. There is a huge difference.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You didn't change your playstyle much, so you didn't use them much (charm and mez).  They were tools that made soloing more efficient in the past.  So, since you didn't use them (for whatever reason) you don't think that there is a problem for those of us that did...  riiiiight...</P> <P>High int has been advised for a long time now to maximize damage - nothing new there.  AAs existed before the nerfs and have roughly the same impact that they did before - nothing new there.</P> <P>I just don't see how you can speak on the current state of the troubador when you didn't use the "tools" that we had in the past.  Your original comments are misleading.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Jooneau]

The problem is that SOE's design mode for Bards is that they have to be second-rate or third-rate at everything they do because they are versatile and can do a lot of things -- but not the things considered most important to groups and raids (tank, heal, DPS). If you want to excel at something, don't play a Bard.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>07-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Do you honestly believe troubadors have no use on a raid?</DIV>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>Do you honestly believe troubadors have no use on a raid?</div><hr></blockquote>Good, I hope they quit playing troubs if they feel that..makes master cheaper for me.. My buff roughly 3 pp..the dirges equivelant goes for 15 pp minimum..<div></div>

[Godzmodi]

i wish we had stances <div></div>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krazen wrote:<BR><BR>Not trying to start anything...I'm just curious.<BR>What part of the change do you think caused your solo ability to go up so dramatically?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>I never depended on mez and charm to solo, ever</STRONG>... so basically, I've not had to change anything about my playstyle and gotten more damage in the long run. Part of it has to do with the increase in damage (part of that huge "nerf" in that LU, because several of our spells had increases in their damage), the other has to do with the fact that I try to keep my INT as high as possible so I can get the most amount of damage possible.</P> <P>I also find the AAs <EM>very</EM> useful in soloing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, you never played a troubador to the full extent and pushed the boundaries of what was "possible".  Charm was an incredible dps boost that we are nowhere near now.  Mez was our way to control a difficult situation and focus on individual mobs.</P> <P>We can do okay, but we're nowhere near what we were.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I did not say I never used it... I said I did not depend on it solely for soloing. There is a huge difference.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You didn't change your playstyle much, so you didn't use them much (charm and mez).  They were tools that made soloing more efficient in the past.  So, since you didn't use them (for whatever reason) you don't think that there is a problem for those of us that did...  riiiiight...</P> <P>High int has been advised for a long time now to maximize damage - nothing new there.  AAs existed before the nerfs and have roughly the same impact that they did before - nothing new there.</P> <P>I just don't see how you can speak on the current state of the troubador when you didn't use the "tools" that we had in the past.  Your original comments are misleading.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, but the part you failed to try to nail me on was that SOE did, in fact, raise the damage on several of our spells. Thus making soloing easier. Thus making it that much more fun... for at least me.</P> <P>My comments are not misleading at all. I was very clear in my meaning.</P>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mawie wrote:<div>Yes, but the part you failed to try to nail me on was that SOE did, in fact, raise the damage on several of our spells. Thus making soloing easier. Thus making it that much more fun... for at least me.</div> <p>My comments are not misleading at all. I was very clear in my meaning.</p><hr></blockquote>You said that you could solo "much more efficiently" based solely on the trivial damage increase of some of the spells. That's misleading. Unless those spells did "much more" damage, they wouldn't make soloing "much more efficient."Now, I don't solo on my Troub, so I can't comment on whether it's easier or harder, but simply raising the damage by a few points on a couple of our spells wouldn't seem to have that great an impact on our soloability. Would it technically be "easier/faster"? Possibly, but I'd guarantee that equipment, spell quality or any number of other factors would have a much greater impact.</div>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Yes, but the part you failed to try to nail me on was that SOE did, in fact, raise the damage on several of our spells. Thus making soloing easier. Thus making it that much more fun... for at least me.</DIV> <P>My comments are not misleading at all. I was very clear in my meaning.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You said that you could solo "much more efficiently" based solely on the trivial damage increase of some of the spells. That's misleading. Unless those spells did "much more" damage, they wouldn't make soloing "much more efficient."<BR><BR><BR>Now, I don't solo on my Troub, so I can't comment on whether it's easier or harder, but simply raising the damage by a few points on a couple of our spells wouldn't seem to have that great an impact on our soloability. Would it technically be "easier/faster"? Possibly, but I'd guarantee that equipment, spell quality or any number of other factors would have a much greater impact.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, I really think that the "insignificant" increase in damage really really helped. But that is just me. I can see the difference, and it does make soloing for me <EM>that</EM> much easier. I never once claimed that this was going to be the case for all people. The same way the original post was a "personal observation," my reply was also a "personal observation." I really, honestly, 100% find soloing easier with these changes.</P>

[Sabatini]

I actually have to agree with Mawie. Prior to the patch I found soloing with my Troubador to be a little depressing. It just felt so lackluster compared to my Swashbuckler and my Bard memories from EQ1 (the latter of which is an unfair comparison.) So he had been gathering dust for weeks because I couldnt work up the enthusiasm to play him. Since the whole reason I went with a Troub over a Dirge was the Charm, following the patch I fully planned to just give up on the guy and delete him. But on a whim I gave him one last chance. I was extremely surprised at how much of a difference it was. I've zipped through about 15 levels on him since the patch...the majority of it solo.Much of it is because the enemy gets damaged from all sides now. Not just from my attacks, but also for attacking me and using power. Not having to keep a concentration spot open for the Charm is also a huge help. While its true the AA Int Boosting Mawie mentioned existed prior to the patch, Higher int is boosting damage on things that did no damage prior, like our self buff.But take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. My Troubador isnt an end game raid bard. The concerns at that end are largely different for every class. But I'm finding the journey to that end game a lot more enjoyable than I did before.I do hope they find some middleground on the Charm though to make it a little more useful than its current state.<p>Message Edited by Sabatini on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[Sawp]

<P> I have a lvl 70 Troubador and am a valued member of one of the top raid guilds world wide I play with lvl 100^^^ guards and take then down to 45 percent and live to tell about it. I can solo the nest to the end where i bugg it and the mobs become nonenteractive npc's and can tank zones better than most tanks because of mez pulling and my use of charm to keep the group safe. I can go on and on BUT what i find to be a Joke (pause ) SONY is where a mezed mobs can mez me back. Now I do want to thank you for fixing the mana stone mez break about time. Personally the changes have made soloing a little easer for the most part but I have lost my title of king of crowd control and am not even considered for the part. I know that Troubadors in the past where much better suited for crowd control because of the fact we could take a lickin and keep on tickin and know that i personally use to put Ill's to shame for the task.</P> <P>Let me quote from sony themselfs "Troubadors are the weakest scouts in their ability to burst damage" . The reason I quote sony is you nerfed our charm and mez which made up for the low dps but didnt really do anything to compensate for it and it buggs me when I see Troubadors changed and look at other classes wearing vendor loot items and watch them send there pet in and lay waist to the mob. Dont even get me started on brigand's or assassins with there mass dps or ability to not be effected by AOE's.</P> <P> I do understand why our mez and charm where changed and in raids the charm is now more usefull because i can run in charm(I do love the cast timer now) a add run out and bring the add with me where i can mez park it for a MA But if you want to fix us either make our power drains usefull (which to this day i still cant figure out why we have a power drain if it really dosent factor in) or Hay here is a new one give us a epic stun WOW on its own timer or or hay how about making song barrier live up to what is says it will do because in my parses song barrier is lucky to proc at 5 percent of the time soloing and in raids well whats song barrier i get more procs damage off my swords that proc at 5 percent. I personaly love my bard JimmyPuff uberdor and personlly think if your going to limit our ability for crowd control then give us something that makes us more than a baby sitter for caster groups. I am not going to lie and say that most casters in my guild want me in there group for my proc and precision and the fact that i will change my buffs on the fly if i see that the encounter has changed but it does get old being looked down apon for my DPS (but most people are clueless to the fact that high parse dosent mean that much in fact it is the healers ability to keep up the MT vs power consumed and that dps needs to be greater than the power consuption of the healer core but most people will dispute that or are unable to comprehend being stupid monkey button pushers like 80 percent of the people who play this game. </P> <P>Well I have vented and feel a little better and maybe I am looking at this wrong since your lucky to really see a bard and I am sure the amount of bards will drop. Chow</P>

[xrist]

<P>Saw, you sound like you know what you're talking about on end-game Troubador issues.   Too bad your post is so hard to read!    *mails Sawpaw a bag full of punctuation marks*  :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I'm hoping you'll post here more often.</P>

[Crimson Dragon]

i haven't been playing a troubador long, so i don't know what changed. from what i read, our charm no longer uses a concentration slot, and i'm playing on pvp.... there's just something incredibly funny about watching your opponents' fury stop casting his heals and turn around to nuke his friends. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>i come from a class that's taken it hard in the past (warden - which i did play long before the original combat changes) so i know how it feels to have your class beaten with the nerf bat so hard that you don't think you'll ever walk again.... but things get fixed eventually if they're really bad.<div></div>