Raiding Troubadors and player skill

[Sanju]

This is my (probably final) plea to bring some modicum of player skill to the raiding bards (specifically, Troubadors). This is somewhat applicable to groupers, too, but mostly raiders. Soloing bards currently require far more player skill than raiding bards.For every other archetype, player skill is a big part of what makes a player good at their job. Certainly skill upgrades and gear help out, but player skill is more important. If you have a tank that doesn't know how to pull and position mobs, or doesn't like to taunt too much, well no amount of gear or spell upgrades will really help him. The same can be said of healers (knowing when and which heals/wards/cures to cast) and dps classes (avoiding AEs, managing agro, maximizing damage).  The raiding troubador is much more dependant on spell quality, rather than player skill.Do you have the 40% Alins? (Any one will do, Master T6, Adept I T7 ... it really doesn't matter.)Do you have Adept 3+ Bria's? (I'd say Master, but since it was just recenly introduced it's still rare.)Do you have Masters of 95% of the rest of your buffs/skills?Do you have 50 AAs?If you said yes to the above, then congrats! You're basically just as good as any other raiding Troubador. As long as you know how to stay alive, anyway (which isn't difficult). Sure, your dps might be a couple hundered higher or lower than the other bard(s) in the raid, but if your raid is dependant on bard dps you've got problems. Casting Jester's Cap (and Bladedance if you have that) doesn't require much skill, and is just a bonus, anyway. When spell quality is the primary factor in what makes a player good, you've got severe problems.<div></div>

[Jaimster]

<DIV>I never played any other MMO, RPG, or any combination of the two, but I've seen references to twisting, instruments, and other things that we don't currently have in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you have in mind a certain "skill" that would make our roles a bit more complicated, yet a bit more challenging in order to differentiate between good troubs and really really good troubs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're right. I pretty much only have to pay attention (and therefore make any decisions) in the following situations:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Welcome to your raid group - who is in it? What buffs do they need for greatest benefit?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) On any specific mob, are the melee types getting wailed on by elemental or arcane damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Who to cast Jester's on?  No one is pulling aggro... not the MT.  MT is not dying really fast.... not a healer.  Okay, which dps class has the most power?... okay them.... A whole group just got whacked by an AoE, does their healer have power?... okay, them.  etc etc etc. A couple of people died?  Okay, who's the rezzer, let's cast it on them....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether the fact that I pay attention to the above actually benefits the raid in a big way or makes me a good troub, I have no idea, but at least I feel like I'm doing something =) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definitely would LOVE to have something to do that takes skill and attention to detail rather than mostly spell level!!  I just really have no idea what that could be...</DIV>

[Sanju]

As much as some people hate it, twisting would certainly differentiate skilled troubs from the rest. The devs have made it abundantly clear that this mechanic will never be a part of EQ2, however. I'm not really sure how instruments worked in EQ1, as I've never played that game. If instruments could be introduced that would simulate twisting, that would be pretty cool.I really don't know how they can make what's essentially a buffing class more skill-based without some form of twisting, though.All I know is that I have a lot more fun on my baby Conjuror than I do on my Troub.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

More buffs like Jesters, Bladedance, etc would be the best way to fix this.  If we had a lot of useful abilities we had to time right to get the most out of them I'd be happy.

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR><BR>Do you have the 40% Alins? (Any one will do, Master T6, Adept I T7 ... it really doesn't matter.)<BR>Do you have Adept 3+ Bria's? (I'd say Master, but since it was just recenly introduced it's still rare.)<BR>Do you have Masters of 95% of the rest of your buffs/skills?<BR>Do you have 50 AAs?<BR><BR>If you said yes to the above, then congrats! You're basically just as good as any other raiding Troubador. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!<BR>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!</P> <P>Woohoo! Grats Scafloc.</P>

[Dizank]

<DIV>Well I dont want to have to twist cause for anyone who played a bard in EQ the wrist pain would deter me from that over a long raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like more situational buffs that would be useful to the group/raid along with fixing up some of our lack luster buffs.</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

I think a larger amount of short duration single target buffs would help tremendously.  Imagine a lot of Jesters style buffs we could be casting on different people at different times.

[schwantz007]

<DIV>     Aye, single target spells that last a short duration but are highly NOTICEABLE improvements to your group members are the way to make this role more fun. Heh, at this point, the most gratification I get is from a group member saying, "wow that jesters cap is awesome." More spells like this or even like PotM are the way to go in my opinion. Jester's cap and PotM are kinda the only moments of glory I have. So needless to say I try to have them going as much as possible. </DIV> <DIV>     I agree fully that a class that is defined solely by spell quality is sad, which is why I have parked the Troubador for the near future. I have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of fun playing my other 3 characters - a Warden, Brigand, and Necromancer, even if I only play them currently on a group or solo level to kill time. However, I have raided with the Warden back in the day (excuse the cliche, heh) and it was much more intense of an experience - ie. curing at the right time, getting off the right kind of critical heals when needed, or even the ever heart stopping fizzle that comes along  less than opportune times (its still exciting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it !). So yes the raiding Bard is a mundane role but, as scafloc suggested, could be remedied with relative ease. In sum, all any Troubador wants is the ability to be active during raids and  to be noticeably contributing, one way or another.  Until then.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aredisil, 70 Troubador (on Vacation) on AB and....</DIV> <DIV>numerous other personalities.</DIV><p>Message Edited by schwantz007 on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[Terayon]

Im not sure bout yall but I wana Beat up a dragon with a lute.. lol.<div></div>

[Sabatini]

I just want to beat up a dragon for rare Lute drops. :smileywink:

[Godzmodi]

/join /afk /follow ah the life of the raiding troub o ya in between playing PS2 hit maestro every once in awhile <div></div>

[Dystopya]

<div></div>WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dystopya on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Crombie]

<P>I have to agree with Angua's OP ~</P> <P>The skill required for the Troub class on raids is very minimal, and overall disappointing.  Just in comparison with our close neighbors, the dirges. Their debuffs are very effective and the ability to rez keeps them on the move when needed.  I wish we had something that was innovative and required attention if we wished to add something to a raid that wasn't passive. (besides jesters cap omg lol) </P> <P>edited: blasted typos</P><p>Message Edited by Crombie on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[schwantz007]

<P>[Removed for Content]. As a final post here as Troubador I would like to state: if you find ranged auto-attack at all innovative or invigorating then I would hate to see you plan a party. I am not trying to sound condescending or insulting but.../shrug Troubadors are looking for a bit more than that in my very humble opinion. However, indirectly you have raised a good point; do the majority of Troubador CAs REALLY suck that bad? yes...yes they do... (debuffs included). </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystopya wrote:<BR> WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....<BR><BR>This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.<BR><BR>F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Dystopya on <SPAN class=date_text>07-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.</P> <P>Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?</P>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dystopya wrote:<div></div>Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. <hr></blockquote>Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol).  I never said that we can't occasionally put up good dps (or even consistently put up "good" dps), or that doing so doesn't require skill. In the right group/situation I can and have done very well on many parses.That's not my point, though. While I do think that we need a base dps increase, it still won't change the fact that our buffs (except for two of them) are unspectacular, our debuffs are also a joke, and there simply is no skill whatsoever in performing our primary role as a buffing class. The only "skill" regarding our buffs is knowing which would be optimal to run for any given situation/group -- and even a monkey can be told which buttons to press to "set and forget" the right buffs.If I wanted to rule the parses, I'd roll a dps class -- oh, wait, I did that already with my 55 and climbing Conjuror (which is a hell of a lot more fun to play, by the way, in any situation (solo/group/raid)).</div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mbolme wrote:<BR> <P>> I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!</P> <P>Woohoo! Grats Scafloc.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Me too , cant use it yet though for another 20 levels though lol

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dystopya wrote: <div></div>WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Dystopya on <span class="date_text">07-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:31 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.</p> <p>Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?</p><hr></blockquote>I hate Jester's with a passion.  It's a band-aid that is only useful in very limited situations:  IE Sanctuary, Properly timed with some Guard/Zerker Temp Buffs, and Dispatch.  Basically, if you are worth a grain of salt, you're casting on your MT Cleric, MT, and Brigand, and perhaps 1 other person to complete the cycle.  What is the skill in that?I don't know how you fix the issues with troubs, honestly.  I've thought of a billion dfiferent things.  Whatever they are, I think they should have to do with group and/or raid-wide abilities, NOT single target stuff.  SONGS, BEATS, ETC aren't heard by 1 person at a time, ya know what I mean?  It's just idiocy and completely blows away any sense of lore in the character.  I'd love to see 10 second, 2 minute recast raid-wide buffs that, for instance, increase DPS by 20%.  What?!?  We can't have that?!?  Why not?  Brigands get dispatch, which is 13 seconds of about 50% DPS increase for the entire raid.  How about 10 second, 2 minute recast spell haste?  Heal crit %?  Spell Crit %?  Group Cures (this was in EQ1 and rocked)?Please please please, stop talking about single target crap.  We're group buffers, and always have been until this mishap of an expansion.</div>

[Zapdafi]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>lol, yup, jesters is crap. i have 3 situations where  use it. on a conjuror before they coh someone, maybe just before a pull on  a healer or the tank, and right before i cast call of queynos on me.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kreat]

I often find myself casting JC on tanks in encounters where mobs memwipe often or agro can be an issue ... other then that ... well, my necro loves it when he has to pass hearts out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Snublefot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Godzmodiar wrote:<BR>/join<BR>/afk<BR>/follow <BR><BR><BR><BR>ah the life of the raiding troub<BR><BR><BR>o ya in between playing PS2 hit maestro every once in awhile<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its pure bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and you know it. Your one of 24 people. Players that want to be stars aint got nothing to do in a raiding guild in the first place. I've found my niche in raiding, I can lag without ruining the raid, but those 700 dps do matter. And yeah I'm perfectly aware that I'm in the raid for 1 reason, my nice little 40% hate reduction.</P> <P>So while the OP want to think its spell quality only, bards do come in flavours. And the flavour presented above is the bottom line. A raid using a boxed troub for hate reduction will perform less then a raid with a player using the bard to its fullest capacity. Its that simple.</P> <P>Threads like this breed some nasty players too. A troub in a 6-man group thinking he can afk for example. Its not how to play a troub, end of discussion.</P>

[Dystopya]

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dystopya wrote: <div></div>WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Dystopya on <span class="date_text">07-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:31 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.</p> <p>Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?</p><hr></blockquote>Because casting 5 buffs at the getgo and changing one or two every 30 minutes is not casting a 30 second duration buff every 35 seconds on various raid members. I dont know, id rather be focused on the mob my raid is fighting, like every other class in the game.<div></div>

[Dystopya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Dystopya wrote:<div></div>Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. <hr></blockquote>Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol).  I never said that we can't occasionally put up good dps (or even consistently put up "good" dps), or that doing so doesn't require skill. In the right group/situation I can and have done very well on many parses.That's not my point, though. While I do think that we need a base dps increase, it still won't change the fact that our buffs (except for two of them) are unspectacular, our debuffs are also a joke, and there simply is no skill whatsoever in performing our primary role as a buffing class. The only "skill" regarding our buffs is knowing which would be optimal to run for any given situation/group -- and even a monkey can be told which buttons to press to "set and forget" the right buffs.If I wanted to rule the parses, I'd roll a dps class -- oh, wait, I did that already with my 55 and climbing Conjuror (which is a hell of a lot more fun to play, by the way, in any situation (solo/group/raid)).</div><hr></blockquote>If I had a parse to post, I would. I can assure you that my scouts and casters are not slacking and im consistanly bringing 700-900 dps ranged to the table.I strongly disagree with your opinions. Our buffs do not suck and our debuffs do not suck. ''Debuffs - 2k mental resist debuff? 654 to all magical resist debuff? So far thats 2600 to mental which benefits us, chanters, and i dont know who else. Throw in Zanders adept three and youve debuffs mental [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near 3k and everything else [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near 1k. Everyone who plays a troub is constantly saying how Demoralizing and Discante suck.... I dont see how. I can see a difference in the MT's hp drops when their up and when their not, when we dont have certain classes available on the raid. Discante also drops agi of the target by 153. It doesnt take a genius to tell you that this effects the raids melee dps rates on mobs. Add to the fact that these are encounter and not single target and cast fairly quickly. People not using these spells because they 'suck' quite frankly are missing a good chunk of our utility and raid effectiveness. Buffs - Not good? Are you people high? I dont know what you guys want? 1k to all stats? I can be put in a melee or MT group and while its not the best use of my class, I can still bring things to the table that will benefit either group. Now put me in a caster group and its time to wreck house. We are probably one of the most versatile of any class out there.</div>

[Godzmodi]

just saying if  went afk during a raid no one would notice, for we dont really make taht much of an impact... now if a healer or an illusionist or assassin or brigand went afk, we would konw about it cause we could tell. we are there for mana regen/dehate, thats all they care about, im lucky to get procs sometimes. <div></div>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dystopya wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Dystopya wrote:<div></div>Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. <hr></blockquote>Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol).  </div><hr></blockquote>If I had a parse to post, I would. I can assure you that my scouts and casters are not slacking and im consistanly bringing 700-900 dps ranged to the table.</div><hr></blockquote>If you're beating ANY scouts other than Bards, or any casters other than Enchanters with 700-900 dps, then, yes, I'm sorry to tell you they either suck or they're slacking. Sorry, but it's the truth.Our buffs: simply don't make a difference. Stat buffs are worthless when the stats you're buffing are already capped. Haste is ok, but less useful than dps buff. Aria is nice, but like Haste it'll typically only benefit part of the dps group. I stand by my statement that the only 2 buffs that really matter (i.e. that anyone would noticed if they weren't up) are Bria's and Alin's.Our debuffs: are minimally effective. Demoralizing is probably the best of them, but our raids typically try to run with 4 bards (2 Troubs 2 Dirges) and I don't think the debuffs stack (at least no one's ever noticed a difference when one discante is on the mob verses 4). I still use them, but they're not effective enough that I've ever heard the MT call for any Bard debuffs (unlike rogues' or some healer debuffs).</div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>If you're beating ANY scouts other than Bards, or any casters other than Enchanters with 700-900 dps, then, yes, I'm sorry to tell you they either suck or they're slacking. Sorry, but it's the truth. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah - All your rogues, predators, sorcerers and summoners should be well over 1k dps, and your illusiuonists probably should as well if they're not doing enchanter stuff.  In the Halls of Seeing the other day I played around with my group and set it up to maximise my person DPS (before you say anything Angua, this isn't how we do every raid, I was just bored <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  With pretty much every proc I could get, I was pulling out 1100 dps on single target named encounters (Pain, Suffering, etc).  And I was nowhere near the top of the parse with that, even the ranger and warlock beat me.

[Dystopya]

<div></div><div></div>I guess all my players suck then, /cheers for pointing that out.I dont know what to say, weve beaten everything aside from Venekor, and were as geared out to the teeth as we can be from the encounters we have beaten.Our casters get over 1k every now and then, but as of the recent conjy changes and aggro problems with wizards theyre sitting at around 600. We debuff to the hilt, scouts sit at around 700-800ish. The only classes we dont have represented are Monk, Illusionist, Swashbuckler, and Assassin. Perhaps not having one of those four classes is why we suck so bad.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dystopya on <span class=date_text>07-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Godzmodi]

our assassins are always #1 followed by brigand and/or swash *usuaully and* and then pet classes followed by wiz/warlock, all being over 1k dps, im usually right below this with the enchanter and monk is right after that. add a fury dps somwhere. <div></div>

[Sanju]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], this turned into a dps discussion.  Forget our dps! I'd rather have a skill based system for raid buffing and/or utility, instead of the current passive system. Whether that comes in the form of twisting, instruments, or sonething completely different matters not to me. I don't want the only skill a Troubador needs in raids to be maximizing dps, because that's dumb. If I wanted to concentrate on maxing my dps I'd make an assassin.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

The best suggestion I have is <EM>powerful</EM> temporary buffs, be they groupwide, raidwide or single target.  Think Bladedance, Precision and Jesters, but lots of them.  Stuff that would really make a difference.  I don't mean having our existing buffs converted, they'd stay as they are, but additional ones.  And saying buffs hurt your hands isn't a good excuse, it's be exactly the same as spamming combat arts - only less often.  If anyone has a better idea then this, let's hear it.

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div>In the Halls of Seeing the other day I played around with my group and set it up to maximise my person DPS (before you say anything Angua, this isn't how we do every raid, I was just bored <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  With pretty much every proc I could get, I was pulling out 1100 dps on single target named encounters (Pain, Suffering, etc).  <hr></blockquote>That is impressive. Were the procs the main source of the increase? Or did you have an insanely high Haste + dps%?  I would have thought that getting +dps as high as possible with your long delay weapons would make a bigger impact than procs. High max damage made even higher with +dps mods -- then throw in the crits and you've got a serious dps increase.</div>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>It was a combination of both really.  The good thing about long delay weapons is they proc more as well as hit harder.  I had a lot of procs on me - Synergism, Phoenixblade, Aria, etc, plus my items.  I think the best part was timing Ice Lash, Divine Recovery, and Jester's on myself all at the same time, that really increased it a lot (would have done Jesters on the illusionist and cast PotM usually, but I didn't want to lose my autoattack damage).  This was with 100% haste and 30% dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can see that a large part of my damage was autoattack, but the procs added up to a large part too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1074981/painparse.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This also shows how useless Lore's is).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe next time we do Labs I'll take an illusionist, coercer, fury, dirge, inquisitor group and see how high I can get.</DIV>

[thorvang]

when the change for troub buffs came, to make them last "until cancled" i was very happy. but after a while i missed it. why? cause you really had something to do.i remember some raids back then, fighting the boss lasted like 10 minutes so i had to rebuff manasong three times and the other buffs (defense) at least two times. and those buffs generated insane aggro. by insane i MEAN insane. recasting swan song in the midst of a fight (and you needed to, cause a second after it dropped you could SEE the mt's health dropping faster in huge chunks) would turn the mob to beat on the troub. so i gathered rares and spent tons of money to get all my (puny) deaggro skills on ad3/m1. i managed to rebuff my songs without getting aggro most of the time by using those (broken) evade and serenade spells, i felt like i accomplished something. other troubs still pulling aggro all the time, while i didn't needed three rezzes in a raid anymore, woohoo! (some weeks later our mt switched to a new way of maintaining aggro, though. he burned through his mana real quick but allowed me to rebuff my songs without drawing aggro)i admit defense has been overpowered, but back "in those days" a troub had some extremely useful and needed buffs and with the need of rebuffing them in fight you had something to do and felt useful.

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<P>Scafloc you said Lore's was useless... which I won't argue in PvP it's only usefull. I'm beginning to wonder when this whole PvP affecting PvE will end. I distinctly remember SoE stating pvp will not interfere with pve, but alas our classes get redefined and given more useless abilities. I honestly would really love to see short buffs. On items though, but still I think the lack of bard skill is an issue. I have all the masters lv50+ for troubador now and what really really sucks... is I didn't have to upgrade them at all as Angua noted. /sigh I really hope instruments come back. If you can't handle the twisting or the short buff ideas then the bard class isn't for players that have general distaste for it. I remember in EQ1 hating twisting till I got the hang of it, then planned ways to better it with clicking my special instruments for shortbuffs as well in with song twisting then absolutely loved it. Now it's just use 4 green debuffs... use couple red debuffs... use couple buffs for other classes and give myself 0 personal benefit... sit down randomly pressing keys for single target attacks bored the frick out of my mind because I'm supposed to be a scout but absolutely nothing like one. </P> <P>I say F you people who hate the old eq1 bard idea to be put in eq2. i pay this game for entertainment and when my class is sizeably the most boring class in all eq2 i start to wonder. There's need for change in the world of a bard, like plate armor for one, instruments for two, selo's needs to be twice as fast, where's our true aoe's? what about all of our dot's? Having these things minus the plate armor and selo's gave us this development tool for skill. Besides... soe has already killed of the majority of bards via control ability nerf and other such things of LU24. Might as well make the 50 bards left in the game and the die-hard bard fans happy. With instruments and song twisting I suppose another 70% of the class will sign off forever or retire their bard rolling a fresh class or alt. But I for one require my games to force me to have skill. Sorry to put it so rudely as I have done but seriously now folks even tanks have surpassed the kick, taunt, bash with their new skillful abilities. I have noticed that healers have better debuffs while bards are the only class that can lower str and agi together so highly the rest of our debuffs are maxed out by other classes really easy.</P>

[terzaghi]

I was hoping to figure this out through context, but it's still confusing...  What is twisting?  I never played EQ1. <div></div>

[Narben Von Nacht]

<div><blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<div></div>...With instruments and song twisting I suppose another 70% of the class will sign off forever or retire their bard rolling a fresh class or alt.<hr></blockquote>And 3 months later the remaining 30% will all get banned for macroing once they all work out what an annoying waste of time twisting is. Assuming they can manage to type their login with the carpal tunnel syndrome they've all developed <span>:smileyvery-happy:Key mashing does not equate to skill, particularly when you can bypass it with a simple piece of hardware like a G15 keyboard</span></div>

[SeregWethrin]

<DIV>Whats sad is everyone is so against it but on my troub in eq2 I am doing as much if not more than I did in eq1.  In eq1 I pushed a button every 3 seconds and had to rotate and think constantly about what i wanted to use for the next round depending on the situation.  In eq2 I mash a CA about every 2-3 seconds mindlessly going through all my abilitys</DIV>

[Seddo]

After reading this whole discussion I feal like at least 75% of all here are unhappy with the current Trouabdor. I must admit that lowering our ability to charm and mezz our opponents weakened our class. I still remember killing 10 Level 68-69 three arrows up Cacotoxic Abomination in the Bonemire alone to complete a city writ (took me ages and died once <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), even soloed the first two nameds in Nest for loot sometimes - but these times are over. Im barly able to solo a lvl 60 heroic encounter anymore. But this is why the encounters are heroic. Players are not supposed to be able to solo heroics that are not yet grey (or at least going to be grey in a few levels). Therefor the "nerf" was more or less needed to "keep the game balanced" (although not everyone will or would agree on that).Then talking about the skills a player needs to play a troubador: In my oppinion everyone needs to know how to play his class, even a troubador.-A Troub needs to be able to properly adjust the buffs to the group setup.-A Troub needs to know the right time to use his short duration buffs (and the right target in case of "Jester's Cap")-A Troub has to follow the commands of the group or raid leader properly. (Melee IN / Melee OUT commands for example)-A Troub must know when to use which short duration debuffs. (In raids for example ones power burns down too quick when always recasting all three duration debuffs.)There might be more things that could be added to the list, but these should be enough.Next point will be the Troubador DPS. - Our Archtype is Scout but still we are NO DPS-Class we are a UTILITY-Class. Our purpose is not to deal an insane amount of dmg, our purpose is to strenghten our allies with buffs and to weaken our foes with debuffs. In addition to that, troubadors still grant a significant amount of bonus DPS to the group when running the Aria of Acclamation, although it was "nerfed".Secondlast point: Stats - Before saying much about equiptment, we should see what a stats a troub needs and what stats he does not need: I list the stats in the following order from important to unimportant:1) Intelligence - 2) Stamina - 3) Agility - 4) Strenght - 5) WisdomThe more Int a troub has the more dmg he deals, and the more extra dps some of his buffs grant, therefore Int is of great importance to a troub.Stamina is important for every class, as every class, although 100 stamina more or less make no differance in raids, it makes a differance in grps and while soloing.Agility grants the troubador a higher avoidance and a bigger powerpool, while in raids only the powerpool is important the avoidance is good for grps.Strenght is only good for dealing more melee dmg (and how much you can carry but that cant be counted). With good weapons a troub is of cause able to deal a good amount of melee dmg (see the above diagramm), but still its not much compared to the whole magic dmg and the bonus dps granted.<div></div>And last but not least: Wisdom. Wisdom helps to resist spells of all kinds, but the troubador is only seldom the target of a direct spell (except AoE) neither in raid nor in grp, so having a high wisdom score is mostly useless. It might help a bit while soloing, but not even sure about that.But there is more then only the physical attributes.... there is Mitigation, Avoidance and Resistance!Resistance is, even for a Troub, all important in T7 raids, as almost all raid bosses needs at least one of the resistances. (Aaaah the Arcane and Magic buff of the Troub, this is where they come soooo handy). Every class should try to have the particulal resistance needed for the boss on max {80% reducation to a lvl 70 opponent is at 6.000 resistance, most bosses are above 70 so around 6.500 resistance to be sure. [This can (mostly) only be accomplished by having different sets of gear, but with the huge bags we have by now, it should not be a problem to carry them with you.]}Now talking abou the avoidance, definitly very usefull in grps and while soloing, not too usefull in raids, as most mobs crush you with a single blow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Lastly, Mitigation, ... see avoidance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now that we know what is important to a Troubador and what is rather unimportant, we can have a look at the last point, the equiptment of a Troubador:Although chain armor often offers +wisdom, what is not really needed, one should not go for leather armor instead. The differance in mitigation is notable. Only if you get very good leather stuff that would be a real upgrade to your current chain stuff, you should go for the leather.As said above, troubs need resistance int, sta and agi mostly (and of cause + power and + health). Getting these things 1st priority you should be able to equipt your troubador pretty well. When farming the T7 instances and doing claymore line youll be able to walk around in legendary armor / jewellery and weapons only, and im sure youll note a signifficant differance while soloing and in grps, and at least a little differance in raids. In raids you should still bring your prismatic weapon along, even if you have better T7 weapons, the power regen in raids really helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Wow... ok this now was pretty huge analysis of the Troub class - hope you had fun reading and agree in at least a few points.So long <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sanju]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div><blockquote>1. A Troub needs to be able to properly adjust the buffs to the group setup.2. A Troub needs to know the right time to use his short duration buffs (and the right target in case of "Jester's Cap")3. A Troub has to follow the commands of the group or raid leader properly. (Melee IN / Melee OUT commands for example)4. A Troub must know when to use which short duration debuffs. (In raids for example ones power burns down too quick when always recasting all three duration debuffs.)</blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">1. This is done before the raid begins, and is rarely, if ever, changed during a raid. (This is also true of every class and is part of raiding in general.)2. The timing (and target) is irrelavent 99% of the time (with the exception of Bladedance, if the Troub has that AA. Timing is pretty important for that one). While casting Precision late isn't good it's also not going to kill the raid.3. This is true of everyone, and not specific to our class.4. I can run all 4 at the same time and never run out of power. (But again, power management is not unique to Troubs. Everyone has to do it.)The only "skill" you listed that's specific to Troubs is from our short duration buffs (Jester's Cap, Percision of the Maestro (to a very minor extent) and Bladedance (if applicable)).  The others are all basic raid knowledge and being a good player in general, not Troub specific. It's exactly those kinds of short duration buffs that people have mentioned as being a possible solution to bring skill into the class.I disagree with many point of analysis on your overall Troub review, but this isn't really the thread for it. I'd like to keep this as a discussion of what skills are needed for a raiding Troub, and if those are the correct skills, and if they're enough to make the class fun.

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>Seddo wrote:After reading this whole discussion I feal like at least 75% of all here are unhappy with the current Trouabdor. I must admit that lowering our ability to charm and mezz our opponents weakened our class. I still remember killing 10 Level 68-69 three arrows up Cacotoxic Abomination in the Bonemire alone to complete a city writ (took me ages and died once <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), even soloed the first two nameds in Nest for loot sometimes - but these times are over. Im barly able to solo a lvl 60 heroic encounter anymore. But this is why the encounters are heroic. Players are not supposed to be able to solo heroics that are not yet grey (or at least going to be grey in a few levels). Therefor the "nerf" was more or less needed to "keep the game balanced" (although not everyone will or would agree on that).Then talking about the skills a player needs to play a troubador: In my oppinion everyone needs to know how to play his class, even a troubador.-A Troub needs to be able to properly adjust the buffs to the group setup.-A Troub needs to know the right time to use his short duration buffs (and the right target in case of "Jester's Cap")-A Troub has to follow the commands of the group or raid leader properly. (Melee IN / Melee OUT commands for example)-A Troub must know when to use which short duration debuffs. (In raids for example ones power burns down too quick when always recasting all three duration debuffs.)There might be more things that could be added to the list, but these should be enough.Next point will be the Troubador DPS. - Our Archtype is Scout but still we are NO DPS-Class we are a UTILITY-Class. Our purpose is not to deal an insane amount of dmg, our purpose is to strenghten our allies with buffs and to weaken our foes with debuffs. In addition to that, troubadors still grant a significant amount of bonus DPS to the group when running the Aria of Acclamation, although it was "nerfed".Secondlast point: Stats - Before saying much about equiptment, we should see what a stats a troub needs and what stats he does not need: I list the stats in the following order from important to unimportant:1) Intelligence - 2) Stamina - 3) Agility - 4) Strenght - 5) WisdomThe more Int a troub has the more dmg he deals, and the more extra dps some of his buffs grant, therefore Int is of great importance to a troub.Stamina is important for every class, as every class, although 100 stamina more or less make no differance in raids, it makes a differance in grps and while soloing.Agility grants the troubador a higher avoidance and a bigger powerpool, while in raids only the powerpool is important the avoidance is good for grps.Strenght is only good for dealing more melee dmg (and how much you can carry but that cant be counted). With good weapons a troub is of cause able to deal a good amount of melee dmg (see the above diagramm), but still its not much compared to the whole magic dmg and the bonus dps granted.<div></div>And last but not least: Wisdom. Wisdom helps to resist spells of all kinds, but the troubador is only seldom the target of a direct spell (except AoE) neither in raid nor in grp, so having a high wisdom score is mostly useless. It might help a bit while soloing, but not even sure about that.But there is more then only the physical attributes.... there is Mitigation, Avoidance and Resistance!Resistance is, even for a Troub, all important in T7 raids, as almost all raid bosses needs at least one of the resistances. (Aaaah the Arcane and Magic buff of the Troub, this is where they come soooo handy). Every class should try to have the particulal resistance needed for the boss on max {80% reducation to a lvl 70 opponent is at 6.000 resistance, most bosses are above 70 so around 6.500 resistance to be sure. [This can (mostly) only be accomplished by having different sets of gear, but with the huge bags we have by now, it should not be a problem to carry them with you.]}Now talking abou the avoidance, definitly very usefull in grps and while soloing, not too usefull in raids, as most mobs crush you with a single blow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Lastly, Mitigation, ... see avoidance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now that we know what is important to a Troubador and what is rather unimportant, we can have a look at the last point, the equiptment of a Troubador:Although chain armor often offers +wisdom, what is not really needed, one should not go for leather armor instead. The differance in mitigation is notable. Only if you get very good leather stuff that would be a real upgrade to your current chain stuff, you should go for the leather.As said above, troubs need resistance int, sta and agi mostly (and of cause + power and + health). Getting these things 1st priority you should be able to equipt your troubador pretty well. When farming the T7 instances and doing claymore line youll be able to walk around in legendary armor / jewellery and weapons only, and im sure youll note a signifficant differance while soloing and in grps, and at least a little differance in raids. In raids you should still bring your prismatic weapon along, even if you have better T7 weapons, the power regen in raids really helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Wow... ok this now was pretty huge analysis of the Troub class - hope you had fun reading and agree in at least a few points.So long <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>This is a post about the RAIDING troubador, and after reading your addition to it, I wonder how much you've actually raided.</div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>This is a post about the RAIDING troubador, and after reading your addition to it, I wonder how much you've actually raided.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The poster does mention raiding fairly frequently so I imagine they have raided SOME.  It is actually a pretty good post for lower level troubs or folks looking to figure out if they want to make a troub.  Although some of the points about which stats are more important or less important don't leave a lot of room for figuring out your own class and how to make it work the best.  I personally don't agree with a bunch of it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful for someone just starting out.<BR>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>Seddo wrote:After reading this whole discussion I feal like at least 75% of all here are unhappy with the current Trouabdor. I must admit that lowering our ability to charm and mezz our opponents weakened our class. I still remember killing 10 Level 68-69 three arrows up Cacotoxic Abomination in the Bonemire alone to complete a city writ (took me ages and died once <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), even soloed the first two nameds in Nest for loot sometimes - but these times are over. Im barly able to solo a lvl 60 heroic encounter anymore. But this is why the encounters are heroic. Players are not supposed to be able to solo heroics that are not yet grey (or at least going to be grey in a few levels). Therefor the "nerf" was more or less needed to "keep the game balanced" (although not everyone will or would agree on that).Then talking about the skills a player needs to play a troubador: In my oppinion everyone needs to know how to play his class, even a troubador.-A Troub needs to be able to properly adjust the buffs to the group setup.-A Troub needs to know the right time to use his short duration buffs (and the right target in case of "Jester's Cap")-A Troub has to follow the commands of the group or raid leader properly. (Melee IN / Melee OUT commands for example)-A Troub must know when to use which short duration debuffs. (In raids for example ones power burns down too quick when always recasting all three duration debuffs.)There might be more things that could be added to the list, but these should be enough.Next point will be the Troubador DPS. - Our Archtype is Scout but still we are NO DPS-Class we are a UTILITY-Class. Our purpose is not to deal an insane amount of dmg, our purpose is to strenghten our allies with buffs and to weaken our foes with debuffs. In addition to that, troubadors still grant a significant amount of bonus DPS to the group when running the Aria of Acclamation, although it was "nerfed".Secondlast point: Stats - Before saying much about equiptment, we should see what a stats a troub needs and what stats he does not need: I list the stats in the following order from important to unimportant:1) Intelligence - 2) Stamina - 3) Agility - 4) Strenght - 5) WisdomThe more Int a troub has the more dmg he deals, and the more extra dps some of his buffs grant, therefore Int is of great importance to a troub.Stamina is important for every class, as every class, although 100 stamina more or less make no differance in raids, it makes a differance in grps and while soloing.Agility grants the troubador a higher avoidance and a bigger powerpool, while in raids only the powerpool is important the avoidance is good for grps.Strenght is only good for dealing more melee dmg (and how much you can carry but that cant be counted). With good weapons a troub is of cause able to deal a good amount of melee dmg (see the above diagramm), but still its not much compared to the whole magic dmg and the bonus dps granted.<div></div>And last but not least: Wisdom. Wisdom helps to resist spells of all kinds, but the troubador is only seldom the target of a direct spell (except AoE) neither in raid nor in grp, so having a high wisdom score is mostly useless. It might help a bit while soloing, but not even sure about that.But there is more then only the physical attributes.... there is Mitigation, Avoidance and Resistance!Resistance is, even for a Troub, all important in T7 raids, as almost all raid bosses needs at least one of the resistances. (Aaaah the Arcane and Magic buff of the Troub, this is where they come soooo handy). Every class should try to have the particulal resistance needed for the boss on max {80% reducation to a lvl 70 opponent is at 6.000 resistance, most bosses are above 70 so around 6.500 resistance to be sure. [This can (mostly) only be accomplished by having different sets of gear, but with the huge bags we have by now, it should not be a problem to carry them with you.]}Now talking abou the avoidance, definitly very usefull in grps and while soloing, not too usefull in raids, as most mobs crush you with a single blow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Lastly, Mitigation, ... see avoidance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now that we know what is important to a Troubador and what is rather unimportant, we can have a look at the last point, the equiptment of a Troubador:Although chain armor often offers +wisdom, what is not really needed, one should not go for leather armor instead. The differance in mitigation is notable. Only if you get very good leather stuff that would be a real upgrade to your current chain stuff, you should go for the leather.As said above, troubs need resistance int, sta and agi mostly (and of cause + power and + health). Getting these things 1st priority you should be able to equipt your troubador pretty well. When farming the T7 instances and doing claymore line youll be able to walk around in legendary armor / jewellery and weapons only, and im sure youll note a signifficant differance while soloing and in grps, and at least a little differance in raids. In raids you should still bring your prismatic weapon along, even if you have better T7 weapons, the power regen in raids really helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Wow... ok this now was pretty huge analysis of the Troub class - hope you had fun reading and agree in at least a few points.So long <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Wait what? You say wisdom is the least important stat and isnt really needed? then go on to say how important resists are? "Resistance is, even for a Troub, all important in T7 raids" Since this is about raid troubs, I'd say its pretty important.  I have certain gear i use for raids that differs from my normal play.  Aside from the t7 resist jewelry ( got a set of each resist), I have armor that specifically has wisdom, and as much as I can get. And just because you dont take on direct damage (more then likely if you do take direct damage from a raid mob boss, youre toast anyway)  the ae/aoe can be offset and safe lives, based on wisdom.. For raids, i usually focus on int (for the exact reasons you stated), stamina, wisdom, agility and then strength. Since we're here to help others out, I dont see the point in strength. Anyway, the rest sounds good.. Hobs <div></div>

[vinterskugge]

1400 dps on Venekor today, but I cheated a bit.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> 1400 dps on Venekor today, but I cheated a bit.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol, 1400 dps from a bard? i guess its posible with the right buffs on you and the group setup in a way that is best for you, but remember, dps is not what we are good for, and you cant really boost the quality of your buffs with the right group setup and player skill like you can do with dps.

[Seddo]

<div><blockquote><hr>loveybutt wrote:Wait what? You say wisdom is the least important stat and isnt really needed? then go on to say how important resists are? "Resistance is, even for a Troub, all important in T7 raids" Hobs <div></div><hr></blockquote>Resistance are of cause most important in T7, as I said, but I also said, that in a prober raid grp, and with resistance gear, you are easily able to boost the resistance you need just now to 6.000++ without much trouble even if you dont care the least bit about your wisdom. I think my wisdom is somewhere below 100 and I still manage to get my resistance maxed out in raids when I need to. This is why I say that wisdom is least important. </div>

[thorvang]

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:1400 dps on Venekor today, but I cheated a bit.<hr></blockquote>what cheat? counting 40% dps of all your group members as your dps? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Amulet of Desecration ftw.</DIV>

[Zapdafi]

<P> </P> <P>lol, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], now why didnt i think of that. rescue ftw after that, hehe</P>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>terzaghi wrote:I was hoping to figure this out through context, but it's still confusing...  What is twisting?  I never played EQ1.<div></div><hr></blockquote>In EQ1 bards could only play 1 song all the time. When the started playing another song the buff of the previous song lasted a bit longer until it faded.Bards used the fading of songs to have multiple bard buffs going at once. This switching of songs was called twisting.To add a bit extra to it, some songs required instruments to be equiped (where songs could require different instruments and the instruments had modifiers to increase the power of the song) so just swapping songs wasn't enough, bards had to change (twist) instruments as well. There were some special items (like the bard epic 1.0) which counted as an instrument of all kinds.Depending on skill of the bard a bard could have 4 to 5 different buffs running at the same time. But that took effort and constant button mashing..<p>Message Edited by Dwergux on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 AM</span>

[Goddfath]

<DIV>LOL never mind...twisting sounds like fun</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goddfather on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[terzaghi]

<div></div>Thanks for the explanation on twisting.  Sounds interesting, but it doesn't seem like something I would enjoy (when would you have time to do anything else?).  May as well make it like dance dance revolution or something to that effect where you have to hit different "notes" as they scroll by, like playing sheet music.  Now that would truly suck... <div></div><p>Message Edited by terzaghi on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[Mulilla]

<P>Honestly if you didnt play EQ1, trust the other bards.  I just leveled a bard in EQ1 to 45 or so.  The main difference between a good bard and a bad one was how much he/she twisted, it was an obvious way to tell if someone was  slaking a bit or really paying attention to the group.  It could be considered fun, since you could never be AFK, but exhausting and really bad for your hands (<A href="http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/carpal_tunnel/detail_carpal_tunnel.htm" target=_blank>http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/carpal_tunnel/detail_carpal_tunnel.htm</A>)</P> <P>Just try to figure, even better try it at your keyboard now and see how it feels:</P> <P>All the songs were fast casting ones, say 1-2 secs, and stay up for a little after stop playing them.  Lets try to twist 3 songs:</P> <P>-Cast song 1 (press key 1) wait 1 sec to cast </P> <P>-Stop song 1 (press key 1)</P> <P>-Cast song 2 (press key 2) wait 1 sec to cast</P> <P>-Stop song 2 (press key 2)</P> <P>-Cast song 3 (press key 3) wait 1 sec to cast</P> <P>-Stop song 3 (press key 3)</P> <P>Goto step one</P> <P>Now repeat it for 1 minute.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tired? aye it was a PITA after a few mins.  It could be better with macros and (although forbidden) 3rd party programs and special keyboards (wich some people used), but anyway it was quite hard to do it well.  Not counting on lag, witch was an important factor also.  It definitively required player skill (a lot) but wasnt really fun.  If you try it for a while you will say that it isnt the kind of player skill you want to have.  Thanks lord the devs didnt take it to EQ2</P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

If twisting comes back, I quit.  Not because I don't like it or anything, but I actually suffer from Carpal Tunnel in my left hand and could not physically do it.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> If twisting comes back, I quit.  Not because I don't like it or anything, but I actually suffer from Carpal Tunnel in my left hand and could not physically do it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it doesnt have to come the exact same way as it was in eq1. but i think soe needs to do something about the problem that player skills dont matter at all for the quality of our buffs.

[thorvang]

<blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>i think soe needs to do something about the problem that player skills dont matter at all for the quality of our buffs.<hr></blockquote>nothing affects the quality of our buffs other than spell upgrades.a tank with higher mitigation is a better tank. a caster with higher int gets better on his main purpose: doing damage. a healer with 8000 mana might do better job than someone with just 5000 mana.but for a bard there's no way to get better in his main doings - buffs - through equipment. 400 str, 700 str, who cares? my nukes go from 800 dmg to 1000 dmg from 100 int to 500 int. really nice... i want progression for my buffs.

[Jordinn]

<P>Here are my thoughts on player skill and troubs.  </P> <P>1)  Playing a troub right now is boring, mainly because despite doing everything you can to "effect" things or not, we essentially do the same when trying or when not trying.  Yeah, some DPS variance, and jousting etc like everyone else when required, but I don't feel that I can truly impact much of an encounter by other than just being there.  Now I was afk for a few weeks and the guild sure noticed I was gone (reflected in overall raid dps and agro issues) so we are a needed class I believe, but just a boring one to actually play.</P> <P>2)  Button mashing isn't skill (aka twisting) though twisting DID require skill for another reason entirely.  It was the right choice of buffs for the situation.  Knowing when to twist ina heal song vs a damage song etc, or when to STOP twisting and mez etc.  That was where I saw skill in EQ1 bards.</P> <P>3)  Our current buffs are underpowered and class defining abilities have been nerfed (Mez charm) so we lack the comparable but you can help by ... (Some task here) because we don't really have it.  Jester's Cap, Precision, nice, but not enough IMO.</P> <P>So how would I fix Troubs?</P> <P>It was stated earlier, but I'd agree, more situational short term buffs that actually effect things in raids.  Here are a few ideas on things that could be used (in no order and some may be a bit over/under powered, just a few ideas off the top of my head.</P> <P>1)  Replay - This skill allows you to capture a spell or activity for a period of time and replay it.  For example, The tank needs healing, so I target the healer, who is chain healing and hit replay.  The next heal goes off and I cast the same spell, but out of my power pool.  For balance maybe the effect is at 75% but the power cost is full?  Need more DPS?  Replay a wizard nuke or replay debuffs from other classes. </P> <P>2)  Crescendo - A buff that lasts 5 secs, and amplifies effects used by the target.  Again cast ona healer for more healing per cast, or a nuker for more nuking power.  Potentially make it give a 1% bonus in first sec, 3% in next 5% in next and 7% then 10% in the last sec or something like that.</P> <P>3)  Death Metal - This song stuns your target into stillness (including Epics), lasting 15 secs.  It can be refreshed with an increasing chance to resist with each added cast.  When the song ends the bard dies and the target gets a buff of str and DPS.</P> <P>4)  Etude of Repair - This song causes the bard's equipment to be damaged 10% in all slots, but repairs the targets Equipment 10% in all slots.</P> <P>5)  Soaring Serenade - Counteracts throwbacks by gently floating your group in a cushion of air.  10 sec duration.</P> <P>6)  Distraction - Cast on target to prevent social agro from the target.  Failed cast or resist causes agro on target.</P> <P>7)  Adoring fans - This ability summons a crowd of adoring fans who surround the bard and shield them from damage and push the target mob away from the bard (Deagro).  Bard is stunned for 5 secs while fans ask for autographs.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Ok this one is more of a joke. </P> <P>I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there too.</P>