Is Troub DPS Really That Bad? (Non-Bard Player)

[Dragonlor]

<DIV>I am a little hesitant in asking this question since I really don't want to start a feeding frenzy.  I have been reading the boards and it souds like the CC changes are potentially a major hit on your class.  My question really lies in another area, however.  I have been thinking of making a troub or a dirge for awhile now, but I am a bit concerned about playing a "support" class.  I like my ranger and swashbuckler, but they seem pretty straight forward for the most part so I was looking for a change of pace.  From an RP perspective the bards interest me, but I have seen alot of talk on the troub board (not much negative DPS talk on the Dirge board) about how poor troub DPS is.   When people say this are they saying that troub DPS is poor compared to the other scouts who have very good DPS or are they saying that troub DPS is poor say compared to a  paladin or healer type?  Is troub DPS that much worse than Dirge DPS (I have to ask since their boards do not have those kinds of posts - at least right now)?  I guess I am just trying to figure out if the posts I have seen are just a vocal minority or if the class really is that bad now and I r. would be wasting my already minimal gaming time on trying a Troub or Dirge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks and I wish you all the best!</DIV>

[Jooneau]

In my opinion, Troubadour DPS can be poor compared to other Scouts, especially the two you mentioned (Ranger and Assassin). This is especially evident when you try to solo as a Troubadour without using charm and mez.A recent developer post indicated that Troubadours were tested to solo (without charm or mez) even con encounters using handcrafted gear and spells (App3). I'm sure they haven't really tested that in the higher levels where it really becomes apparent that better gear and-or charm/mez tactics are necessary. Aside from a general disgust with having core capabilities redefined without much warning, that's why there is an uproar about the charm/mez nerfs. They don't understand how weak we are soloing without these abilities in the higher levels.Troubadour DPS can shine in certain specialized situations -- AE encounters in caster-heavy groups where we can use Precision of the Maestro often, for instance -- but, generally speaking, I don't consider our buffs good enough to compensate for our total inability to address core group/raid needs (tank or heal) and our insufficient damage dealing compared to other classes. We share many of our buffs and debuffs with other classes who can address core group/raid needs (tanking and healing), we ourselves cannot tank or heal, and we rank below other DPS classes when it comes to doing damage. And now they're deliberately nerfing one of our distinguishing abilities, namely "control," albeit in the interest of doing this for the "health" of the game, not necessarily because they thought we were overpowered -- because we aren't!I think the designers are in the middle of redesigning our class, and it has put us in a state of flux, causing grief to those of us who have been playing the class for a while.

[Emerix]

<P>Is Troub DPS Really That Bad? (Non-Bard Player)</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes .</P> <P>Even with a full choice of master CAs and nukes we have no chance to get close to bruisers or a good zerker in dps . Of course if you have a full fabled etc . Bard they can keep outdamage a normal zerker or bruiser . equally equiped its almost impossible . Just my 2 cent .</P>

[Jaimster]

<P>Hi Dragonlord <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The two posters above me have answered your questions quite well. I can only add this:</P> <P>If you wanted to roll a new Troubador or Dirge, I think that's fantastic. My troubador is (was) my absolute favorite class, in fact the only character so far that has made it to level 70.</P> <P>I would recommend the following:</P> <P>Do not hit level 50 before the LU goes live, otherwise you too will experience what we are all so devastated about. Perhaps if you never knew what we are missing, you won't feel so much like you got hit by a really big truck.</P> <P>Keep in mind that your dps won't seem at all poor in the lower levels. I duo'd with my husband's templar up until about level 40's, with my trouby tanking the whole way (lol I couldn't always keep aggro but then he's a plate wearing class so not quite so scary as him being a druid type)... it was completely feasible.  It was a little less exciting when we started grouping a lot in the higher end and my dps had started scaling back a WHOLE lot, but then hitting 50 was great because of lullaby - it added some non-passive utility to the game.</P> <P>As others have mentioned, when grouped or raiding at the much higher levels there's no longer so much of a need for our elemental/arcane buffs as most people have gear that caps these things anyway (particularly raiding), so less thought goes in there.</P> <P>I generally end up in a group full of casters on raids. No one cares about our dps. I think the only time I've ended up on parsers on raids is when we're tank and healer heavy and I'm the only scout.  </P> <P>In groups, I fall in parsers just about the priest classes (and occasionally below them). Every tank class will out dps me if I'm doing my job to cast the debuffs and "help out mage types" spells like PoTM and I have my haste spell up.  I think my highest dps ever on a parser was a little over 300 and that was on a really long fight, where I could use my bump spell (AA line) into invis and could use my "must be stealthed to use" attack a couple of times.</P> <P>Troubadors are a really great class, it's just at the higher end, particularly in light of the upcoming changes, we seem a little... unnecessary as anything much besides power regen.  We are currently hurting and are hoping we get both some love and also some idea of where we, as a class are now headed.  It would seem the developers aren't quite sure what to do with us now that at level 70 many many buff caps have been met, our minimal power draining is absolutely useless, and they're making useless our CC abilities.  You're apt to find a fair amount of bitterness, resignation and a little bit of hope, but not the all out "Yeah, awesome dude, definitely make a Troub for sure, we rock!!" that you might have found prior to LU24 on test.</P> <P>I hope that helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Dragonlor]

<DIV>Thank you all for the honest and thorough replies.  As slow as I level up, I probably won't have to worry about getting to 50 or beyond :smileyhappy:.  I just don't have the time I once had to put into the game.  I think I will go ahead and start a bard, though to be honest it very well might be a dirge given the current state of flux in the troub class.  I just wish the spell effects were a little bit nice (I mean red noxious breath seemingly spraying from my mouth to do diseas damage...that just is not that cool IMHO) :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks and good luck!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dragonlord1 on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:17 AM</span>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

Ive seen paladins, sk's, garudians, and a few other extremely low dps classes do consistently more dps than me when they are 15-1 levels below me. I think that having so many tanks out dps me is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and embarrassing. Yes i have the masters to all my abilities 60+. You will see a gigantic dps decrease probably around lv12 when you have to start grouping for decent xp.

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emerix wrote:<div></div> <p>Is Troub DPS Really That Bad? (Non-Bard Player)</p> <p>Yes .</p> <p>Even with a full choice of master CAs and nukes we have no chance to get close to bruisers or a good zerker in dps . Of course if you have a full fabled etc . Bard they can keep outdamage a normal zerker or bruiser . equally equiped its almost impossible . Just my 2 cent .</p><hr></blockquote>Lol us being able to out DPS a zerker?  Yeah right, almost no class in the game can out DPS a zerker.</div>

[Terabithi]

<P> </P> <P>Yes, troubadour DPS is far inferior to dirge DPS. This is because they made the troub class as a sort of DPS enhancer for the people around them.</P> <P>Take the proc buffs, for example. A dirge has a proc buff that has a chance to deal disesase damage with every melee attack. The troubadour, on the other hand, has a proc buff that has a chance to deal mental damage with every offensive spell cast.</P> <P>Now, a dirge can use his proc while he's in combat, but a troubadour (who doesn't cast spells) cannot use theirs in a solo situation.</P> <P>This example is indicative of troubs all around. They are engineered to boost casters, but, NOT BEING A CASTER THEMSELVES, they are really quite shafted with regards to soloing....ESPECIALLY when compared to other scouts.</P> <P> </P>

[plutek]

Actually, troubadours do have spells. They listed under "spells" and everything, heh. Just they are all rather short casting, which results in less procs. (Spells would be the ones that get interrupted when running, I think the Shrills count as spells, too. I am at work, or I would look to be more specific, hehe.)Also, as I stated in another post (regarding DPS), I was consistantly out damaged by two templars in a group last night. (It was fun group, we were just goofing around and someone brought out a parser and ruined all my fun - I dislike damage contests very much (even when playing my wizard), but I especially dislike parsing for various drama-related reasons. :B) And you hear Templars complain about their DPS constantly, heh, so make your own conclusions. ^_^<div></div>

[Baynne]

<P>i recently created a bard... and sadly it wasnt a troub.  i mention this here only becuase i read a lot of the posts in this forum regarding the upcoming update, and just about every thread came down to "why don't they just remove troubs already?".  i really feel for the troub community and hope sony wakes up and finds some way to make up for it.  given their track record however, i'm not holding my breath<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>bards have alwas been known for enhancing their allies' abilities, but in the end the only thing in demand is power regen and haste.  a lot of people refer to troubs as "AF buff bots", and i would most likely credit this to lack of DPS.  it is my own opinion that bards should be the lower DPS of scouts simply because of the buffs and debuffs they offer, however they should be able to DPS more than a tank for the most part.  </P> <P>the best advice i can give to any player trying a class for the first time is to not have any high expectations.  this way you cannot be disappointed because the lower your expectations, the better it is when those expectations are exceeded.</P>

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>plutek wrote:Actually, troubadours do have spells. They listed under "spells" and everything, heh. Just they are all rather short casting, which results in less procs. (Spells would be the ones that get interrupted when running, I think the Shrills count as spells, too. I am at work, or I would look to be more specific, hehe.)Also, as I stated in another post (regarding DPS), I was consistantly out damaged by two templars in a group last night. (It was fun group, we were just goofing around and someone brought out a parser and ruined all my fun - I dislike damage contests very much (even when playing my wizard), but I especially dislike parsing for various drama-related reasons. :B) And you hear Templars complain about their DPS constantly, heh, so make your own conclusions. ^_^<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...but getting out DPSed by a templar is definately unique to probably well...Im pretty sure you are the only person in this game to have accomplished that - its def not the classes DPS capabilities.</div>

[Terabithi]

<P>yes, true. I will correct my statement.</P> <P> </P> <P>A troubadour has a proc-buff which has a chance of dealing mental damage with each offensive spell cast.</P> <P>A dirge has a proc-buff which has a chance of dealing disease damage with each melee attack.</P> <P> </P> <P>Unless one is in a group of casters, a dirge is preferable. Let me count the number of times I've been in a group of all casters.</P> <P>None. Zero. Nada. This may not hold true for you, but a group of casters is a minimal occurance compared to all other grouping combinations.</P> <P>So, I guess then, at least with this one effect in mind, the edge goes to dirges.</P> <P> </P> <P>This is one example. I think there is a case to be made for troubadour "spells" to be upped in damage, or, for their recast times to be lowered, so that they may take advantage of their capabilities at an equal rate that a dirge may take advantage of theirs.</P> <P>and let's remember that if we tinker with bard damage...they might, might, equal the other scouts. wouldn't that be a terriffic thing? And they wouldn't even need to resort to poison...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[plutek]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>plutek wrote:Also, as I stated in another post (regarding DPS), I was consistantly out damaged by two templars in a group last night. (It was fun group, we were just goofing around and someone brought out a parser and ruined all my fun - I dislike damage contests very much (even when playing my wizard), but I especially dislike parsing for various drama-related reasons. :B) And you hear Templars complain about their DPS constantly, heh, so make your own conclusions. ^_^<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...but getting out DPSed by a templar is definately unique to probably well...Im pretty sure you are the only person in this game to have accomplished that - its def not the classes DPS capabilities.</div><hr></blockquote>The templar did 550+ DPS. I did 450-500. It's not just me this is happening to, and I find your insult/opinion highly offensive.  I am reminded why I do not post on these boards. Thank you.</div><p>Message Edited by plutek on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plutek wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...but getting out DPSed by a templar is definately unique to probably well...Im pretty sure you are the only person in this game to have accomplished that - its def not the classes DPS capabilities.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The templar did 550+ DPS. I did 450-500. It's not just me this is happening to, and I find your insult/opinion highly offensive.  I am reminded why I do not post on these boards. Thank you.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by plutek on <SPAN class=date_text>05-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:03 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I play a Troub, my husband plays a templar... this happens to me on a way too frequent basis (as far as I'm concerned, happening ONCE is too frequent) and I know how to play my character. It depends on the mob and the rest of the group....<BR>

[starlight02]

all nerf complaints aside, i love my troub!  it's a fun class to play, and i'll leave it at that (i'll reserve my bitterness for another post).  however, we do have very low dps.  when running a parser, i'm either last or next to last...and i know how to play my class.  keep in mind, a fair amount of time is spent using debuffs (which DO help your group take the mob down faster).  if i were to completely ignore those, i might go up to spot #3 in the dps chain...possibly.  however, i've never been concerned about not being able to do uber amounts of dps.  our buffs are off the chain!  i will miss our cc, though.  *grumbles*  take care!!!

[Cuz]

You're better off sticking to your swash. He has better DPS, better tankability in a pinch, and after LU24 will have close to the same amount of CC as the troub (also you don't have to wait 50 levels to get it). Plus he's actually more fun to play.<p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 PM</span>

[Godzmodi]

bards are the lowest scout dps. on raids i normally parse about 12, usually always higher than the dirges. <div></div>

[Lindar Phamoncry]

<P>Believe me when I say that I am dissapointed in what SOE is doing to troubs... interested to see that a Dirges dissease proc is brought into the light... you guys know as well as we(Dirges) that procs got the shaft in the nerf... this song is usless... feel free to look on our boards about how we view it. truthfully I find that we do very comparable DPS as I have persed me and a troubie friend a few times... he is 67 I am 65 per the last time and while he did about 20-30 more dps than I did even though I do raid a bit and have some better gear. </P> <P>Though I must say in response to Godz... were you both in a DPS group? in the MT group Dirges have ZERO offensive buffs up... so I'd sure HOPE you did better dps! =P if both are in a DPS group I would suspect we woudl be quite comparable</P>

[vinterskugge]

<P>I always out-dps dirges.  On our parses I generally do less than the rogues, predators, wizards, summoners, brawlers and zerkers, and more than the the other classes.</P>

[Bartimaeus]

<DIV>The thing that pisses me off is the fact that increasing our stats, weapons, spells, aa's constantly and putting alot of effort into these things does not appear to make a difference to our DPS. I used to parse 400 average at the start of this tier on a single raid mob (at level 70) with mostly t6 fabled and masters, and now that I am nearly full fabled T7 and full master/adept 3 T7 I'm still only parsing at about 500. Now I know aria of acclamation was nerfed and some other things have been ninja'd away from us, but thats my point! With a whole tiers more equipment im doing 100 more dps or so, which is pathetic. And its also disheartening to have about a third of the highest on the parse every time..</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bartimaeus on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 PM</span>

[Snublefot]

<P>I've had some progress on my own raid-dps the latest days. I've "refined" my button-mashing-rutine (ie. always use the sneak attack and shrill whenever they are up). There is two situations where I can do relatively good dps (600-700). More then 5-6 mobs and PoM, and on single mobs with decent hp. On encounters with 2-3 mobs PoM aint worth it, and most other dps classes have better AE/encounter damage effects.</P> <P>Currently I use the agility line as my "dps" add. Its decent, but will be respeced once I get a decent 1-hander and/or roundshield. The poison proc is suicide when soloing. It would be better if it was a toggled ability like the ones in the wisdom-line.</P> <P>PoM seems to have lost some of its power. It really shows its a T6 spell really. Its effect even in a clean mage group is minimal compared to the dps loss you take yourself from using it. It really need 5 or more targets to be worth using. The only exception is when some raid mobs ae forces you to go ranged (mages hate it when you die <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Putting up PoM in those situations, and rotating Jesters on the nukers really help a lot.</P> <P>My single group dps however is sad. Most classes have low dps in groups. Most dps classes can do spike dps on some encounters. Troubs dont. Somewhere between 200 and 400 depending on number of mobs in encounter. Again its single target and groups of more then 4 that give best dps.</P> <P>Solo dps is decent. What hurts my troub in solo is my staying power. I can kill my target pretty fast compared to other classes, but I just dont survive as long. The only real option is to charm to regain hp, so overall I use way longer to kill my target. And most named mobs are immune to charm effects. Thats an option I have a feeling will be very hard to achieve with the new charm/mez. There wil be an option of mezing while waiting for charm to come back up, but I have a feeling its going to be very very slow if gaining hp at all. </P> <P>This is all with equipment thats very close to maxed out.</P>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Bartimaeus wrote:<DIV>The thing that pisses me off is the fact that increasing our stats, weapons, spells, aa's constantly and putting alot of effort into these things does not appear to make a difference to our DPS. I used to parse 400 average at the start of this tier on a single raid mob (at level 70) with mostly t6 fabled and masters, and now that I am nearly full fabled T7 and full master/adept 3 T7 I'm still only parsing at about 500. Now I know aria of acclamation was nerfed and some other things have been ninja'd away from us, but thats my point! With a whole tiers more equipment im doing 100 more dps or so, which is pathetic. And its also disheartening to have about a third of the highest on the parse every time..</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bartimaeus on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Judging from comments made from some of you T7 raiders, there are plenty of mental-immune and mental-resistant NPC's in T7 raids that hurt our DPS considerably.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bartimaeus wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>The thing that pisses me off is the fact that increasing our stats, weapons, spells, aa's constantly and putting alot of effort into these things does not appear to make a difference to our DPS. I used to parse 400 average at the start of this tier on a single raid mob (at level 70) with mostly t6 fabled and masters, and now that I am nearly full fabled T7 and full master/adept 3 T7 I'm still only parsing at about 500. Now I know aria of acclamation was nerfed and some other things have been ninja'd away from us, but thats my point! With a whole tiers more equipment im doing 100 more dps or so, which is pathetic. And its also disheartening to have about a third of the highest on the parse every time..</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Bartimaeus on <SPAN class=date_text>05-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Judging from comments made from some of you T7 raiders, there are plenty of mental-immune and mental-resistant NPC's in T7 raids that hurt our DPS considerably. <P>Message Edited by Jooneau on <SPAN class=date_text>05-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>erm..not really that i can think of.   T6's courts was the hell raid zone for troubadors since it had a lot of mental immune mobs however i cannot really think of any mental immune mobs in t7 atm

[Sylvrin]

<DIV>You guys actually get on the parse list?  I am a level 70 troubador with most of my spells at Master or adept 3, 2 pieces of relic armor, the rest legendary, decent weapons and all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a raid I almost never get on the list unless my entire group (usually 3 mages, an assassin or ranger, and a druid) are all afk . chatting, sleeping...or whatever.   Inquisitors have been known to out dps me as well, although that is rare, I think the only class that doesn't out dps me is a templar.  I am usually sought after in raids for two reasons only...mana regen and hate reduction  for the dps group.  That and the fact that my guildies love me :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now keep in mind that I do not play as a buff bot...I sit at my keyboard and I use my skills, whether they actually add much to the fight or not.  I hate seeing parser results because I fall so miserabley short when it comes to damage.  I still will ask for a parser results on occassion though, when I go all out and use jester's cap on myself and really TRY HARD to get some DPS in, sometimes I get lucky and make the bottom of the list  in a raid, but I'm often saddened after going all out to see that I didn't get on the list yet again.  :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I duo with a Warden a lot and we do similar damage, but he usually does more than I do.  In raids and 6-man groups tank types and druids always out dps me.   :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[Jaimster]

Ummm... so anyone else kill the Bonemire basilisks so slowly they actually heal themselves??  I'd really like to know exactly how they freaking do that...

[Sylvrin]

<DIV>Well as things currently stand  (before LU24),  I charm one basilisk and then attack one...it works wonders, they do good damage!  I just wish this tactic were going to be useable in the future </DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Charm a corpse candle from Cacotoxic Stain, then try killing basilisks.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sylvrin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well as things currently stand  (before LU24),  I charm one basilisk and then attack one...it works wonders, they do good damage!  I just wish this tactic were going to be useable in the future </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL, I did, it broke, killed one and then the other - but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] things still heal themselves... that is the mindboggling part to me ;p  I've also been trying to play the way I'll have to when the changes go through... while harvesting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sylvrin]

<P>Do you have your charm spell mastered?  Mine rarely breaks on blue solo cons.  Also something I've noticed with charm when it does break...if my charmed pet takes direct hits for any length of time, he has a much greater chance of breaking free.  However, if I do the tanking and take most the damage while the charmed pet just adds dps it seems to have less chance to break.  I usually use shriek (which I have at Master 2) to get the attacker off my charmed pet and back on me if I need to.</P> <P>Well mute point anyway since this tactic is going in the scrap heap real soon.</P> <P>edited for spelling</P><p>Message Edited by Sylvrin on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>Some basilisks have some sort of save when they are about to die. Been a while since I battled one now, but from how I remember them they just did one heal and then fell over on the next shrill.</DIV>