Troubadors and LU24

[Teaen Arcarius]

<DIV>I completely understand and agree with the need to revamp the "control" spells/arts of the game to non-trivalize heroic encounters for groups and to give some sort of balance to Coercers/Illusionists.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, what about Troubadors?   Have they been forgotten and fallen through the crack in this revamp?  Currently, Troubadors have some crowd control, but enchanters have better.  Even so, LU24 will change that so Troubadors have almost no crowd control at all?  A 20 sec mez with a 20 sec refresh and a 8 second charm?  What's the point?  For mez, resists and any broken mez will just about negate its usefullness and I'm not even going to talk about an 8 second charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if crowd control is taken away from a Troubador, what do Troubadors have?  It's not dps.  Troubadors have lower dps than all other scouts, non-enchanter mages, and most fighters.  Maybe Troubador damage is on par with enchanter damage, maybe its a tad more, I don't know.  Either way it's pretty minimal and certainly not an asset to a group.  Nobody invites a Troubador to a group for thier dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs?  Enchanters have better power regen and haste.  Sure, troubadors have a lot of group buffs and probably have more versatility in that respect to enchanters, but nothing that has as much game impact to justify the removal of Troubador crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what exactly are Troubadors supposed to do in groups post LU24?   I look at the Troubador forum on these boards, and there are a ton of posts discussing LU24 in a lot more detail than this one.  Many are just begging for some Dev response that LU24 has been thought out for the Troubador class.  Troubadors are asking for some sort of justification, any justification, but there is no response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I made this post not as a complaint, or whine, or Sony bash.  It's just that LU24 is going to have such a severe impact on Troubadors that it doesn't just change the game for many Troubadors, it ruins the game.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<DIV>If we keep being nice maybe we'll get another bad joke from the devs instead of anything useful. :smileysurprised:</DIV>

[Simon Snowlock]

I play a Dirge myself, but if I was in a group with a lot of mages I would want a Troubador for their spell DPS increases. Dirges increase the DPS of weapons but Troubadors increase the DPS of spells so I'm sure they would find a good spot in Raid groups.

[DanaDark]

Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.

[Krescendo]

Might as well say 'Bards'. In my mind, dirges are in the same boat, even if the specifics are slightly different.

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You never will now I guess.</P> <P>Good for a mage group? How often does that happen outside of raiding? At my level I can buff there "to hit with spell" chance, I can add a spell proc, and mana regen. Upping there casting schools is useless. Mana regen everyone benefits from that.</P> <P>I guess the group detaunt could go in there too, but I'm usually with a good tank so I never use it...</P>

[DanaDark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You never will now I guess.</P> <P>Good for a mage group? How often does that happen outside of raiding? At my level I can buff there "to hit with spell" chance, I can add a spell proc, and mana regen. Upping there casting schools is useless. Mana regen everyone benefits from that.</P> <P>I guess the group detaunt could go in there too, but I'm usually with a good tank so I never use it...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I <3 troubs... seriously... I try to save a spot for when I see one lfg. Iono, I like em. Personally, I get REALLY annoyed when they do the charm thing... scares me... lol.</P> <P>Overall, I will always be grabbing a troub when I can!</P>

[Eynki]

<DIV>Well in my opinion if they take they should give back. take the crowd control and give back some frekin dps. i am tired of getting out dps's by a healer</DIV>

[Jaimster]

LOL Dana that's because you're not high enough level to group with a Troubador for their crowd control - the charm spell is not the "crowd control" most troubadors are talking about...the charm is more a soloing tactic.

[auk]

I agree with you troubs, and dirges. I hope you get some love next. I don't see any reason your mez should have been nerfed. I know nothing about the charm so I won't comment on that. Still, having other classes have a viable mez besides enchanter was just fine the way it was IMO. Never had a bard try to usurp that duty from me (only wizards try to do that for some reason).Good luck trying to get some dev attention.<div></div>

[pikeymoose]

Troubador class defining skill....Mez/charm...long ago speed.Well without that class defining skill...how about giving us back the OTHER class skill. Were we supposed to be able to run fast? 34% is a slap in the face to a troubador.So 3 class defining skills gone. hmm now what.Defined by mediocrity? No class skills.Moose

[Lachlan]

<P>Unfortunately the track record is not good here.  Guardians lost a lot in LU13 compared to how other classes tank yet never saw any increase in DPS to bring them in line with other fighters.   If you love to tank, it's still a good class but you know you are getting the shaft on dps.  So, wishing for troubs with diminished crowd control post-LU24 to get a significant boost is just that, wishing.  SOE dev's feel like they have a slippery slope situation with class dps and appear to be cemented in that position for over a year now.  I think they have taken that line of reasoning a quite a bit too far. </P> <P>Giving Troubs <FONT color=#993366>poison</FONT> would not break the game.  They will still lack the big CA damage and AOE carnage of the Brig/Swash types and the burst damage of Assassins and Rangers.  Procing changes in the previous update already put a big dent in Troub DPS.  There's no good reason not to let Troubs and Dirge's have poison after this patch diminishes Bard playability further. </P> <P> </P>

[GangrelKitten]

Nice to know you still love me even when I do the charm thing, Evalyn <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm not too worried about the update, I do think that troubs could do with a little bit of a DPS upgrade but I don't see it as ruining a troubador. I love my troub, not gonna give her up just cause she gets just one facet nerfed.- Tiffia, Troubador of Mistmoore, Senator of Silence- Ashafia, Fury of Mistmoore- Melifia, Conjuror of Mistmoore<div></div>

[Bong_water]

<blockquote><hr>DanaDark wrote:<div></div>Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<hr></blockquote>Amen brotha<div></div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bong_water wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Amen brotha<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Power regen ftw.

[Lockeye]

Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<BR><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes, its not really what we want to hear, but good to hear atleast something, the main point of the troubadours is that reducing our crowd control abilites takes out a good portion of activity when fighting. whcih is risky because it can lead to a boring gameplay.</P> <P>i know it might be a little off topic but are there any news about bard usable instruments yet? me and lots of other bards would really like to see them sometime ingame.</P>

[Marillion]

Basically you are continuing to turn both Troub and Dirge into a buff bot that has very limited dps.Our buffs on both sides of the bard tree continue to become very ineffective at high content levels and even now at the strong group level, due to ease of a player to hit physical stat caps (str/agi/sta). Also it is very easy to get equipment that takes parry/defence to +5 levels before tank classes add there class spells and so the defence buffs become almost useless.  Something needs to be done with the bard, seeing as nothing has ever been done in 24 updates.

[kerel]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<hr></blockquote>No it isn't what any of us wanted to hear but it's something. Now what are you giving us in return for these 'changes' (trying to be nice), only things i have seen are 1) redunced the duration on stifle and 2) increased the dmg on the Essence line (forgive me if i dont' kiss your feet for that one).</div><p>Message Edited by kerel on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>Well Jared,</P> <P>I still think it's sad that you penalize an underpowered class based on a few rarely used circumstances, yet you allow dps classes their insane damage for a other circumstances.  Mez in its other state is not overpowered.  </P> <P>If you're so hard for balance, how about letting bards be the only buffers, maybe one other class could have some buffs to throw in.  I mean, hell, it's only fair, right?</P> <P>Use your brilliant toons to discern which classes are the least played and think about the reasons of that data.  It is NOT a coincidence.  You and your cronies have made this class into an autofollow buff-bot. PERIOD</P> <P>With the best skills, equipment and tactics, we're just marginally better than your "handcrafted gear, app3 test subject" and our groups as well.  This is due to lack of thought and the creation of a mostly passive support class.  It's not FUN for your subscribers and it was not chosen by the vast majority (remember we're on the second full "rebalance" now).</P> <P>Fix your vision or lose a subclass.</P>

[Tanla]

<P>Like many others I agree that Lockeye's post isn't what I wanted to hear... but at the same time I'll chime and and say thanks, that, yes, at least we did hear something.</P> <P>I'd say a good 50% of the griping on this board has been to the blanket silence accompnaything these changes and the complete lack of dev response to our protests...</P> <P>So again, thanks for the response.</P>

[Jaimster]

<P>Thanks for finally acknowledging us.  But you haven't exactly answered the question that most of us are so concerned with... we get it... you made changes... you think our mezz was overpowered (I'd have to disagree but that's not the point).  What we are really asking, and where the "silence" is frustrating is <EM>where is the troubador class going??</EM>... is this it? Because if so it's pretty dull...  <EM>What does the future bard in EQ2 look like and what will (s)he do?</EM>  That is what we'd like to know. Because if you're taking some of our favorite utility away and replacing it with nothing... then a person would have to be crazy (or not yet 50 prior to LU24) to do anything but raid with their high level troubador...</P> <P>Please.. give us some CLUE that we will have a direction, even if it's new, even if we don't think we'll like it... just don't leave us in the pathetic state it seems we are going to be left in.</P> <P>Again, it was nice to be acknowledged and I thank you for that. We now know that you know that we're upset at the very least.</P>

[J]

<DIV>Hollow words.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for stopping by.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. <FONT color=#ff0000>There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change)</FONT>.</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>That's the only part worth reading really. I wonder how we'll be compensated for a reduction of 98% on one skill and 75% on another.<BR></FONT><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to <FONT color=#ff0000>effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage</FONT>. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Unless you increase drastically the duration, I'd replace "effectively" with "barely".</FONT><BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#33ccff>Atleast you know that we don't like the change. If you could give us some good news eventually it would be neat.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>So we'll get an uber 16-second charm instead then? Seriously, a 8s encounter or aoe-mez would be more usefull. Well time will tell, I dont hold much hope to what or what not this in-house tested new charm will be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What bothers me is the Mez change. </STRONG>Sure we could lock down 4 encounters. But did you ever try to lock down 4 encounters as a troub yourself? In a high stress situation with red health and 10% power left? Our mez where a good one, but nowhere near the power of a true chanter mezing. Even with 1 add locked down and someone accidentaly (or just due to pure ignorance) breaking a mez is 10s for the next. Thats most likely a dead healer and dps. With 20s? Its now effectivly a getto-mez, fire it and hope it sticks, its your only chance. Resist or break and you've just wasted power and time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you just want us to mez one creature, why not make it a toggled spell? 20s duration, instant recast on break. Would make much more sense, and make it so much more usefull when a group struggles and makes mistakes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least I'm in fabled gear with fabled spells at level 70 where I can just tag along whatever tank goes to farm something. I most certainly can't farm any named in SoS. This nerf round aimed totally wrong and hit the one of the weakest solo class where it hurst most. I feel truly sorry for the bards currently doing the level and item treadmill. Its going to be a constant uphill struggle for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, thanks for commenting, it was the expected response and confirms that someone just doesnt understand the Troubadour class at all.</DIV>

[Narben Von Nacht]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<font color="#ffff66">Then how about throwing us a bone and mentioning some of these changes? We might be able to live with the changes if you gave us something in return but all we're seeing at the moment is the gutting of our class. I know that whenever big changes are implemented you get people being overly dramatic and threatening to quit the game but atm amongst Troubs there are a number of players <b>seriously</b> questioning the point of their class. </font>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<font color="#ffff66">This is the prime example of what is driving all the angst about these changes. Instead of the "wait until next week" why can't you give us some information. I know you don't want to be locked into changes that might not go live but give us something, anything. You don't have to give us exact data but an explanation of the direction you plan on taking the class would be appreciated. What you've just written there hints that maybe you're reevaluating the 8 sec charm but I could also just be reading too much into it. Thats been the problem with this. </font><font color="#ffff66">Atm, the only thing we can be sure about is that our abilities are going to get seriously nerfed. It's better to look forward to something than to spend the same time dreading</font><font color="#ffff66"> whats going to happen. The only person who has the power to do that is you Lockeye. Give us something to feel happy about. These changes following right on from the changes to spell procs (which appeared to benefit everyone except the class with the spell proc buff, ie Troubs) have left us feeling a little beat up and abused </font>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<font color="#ffff66">Unless a change to mez recast is part of the "one week ahead" changes we won't be able to lock down anything with it. 20 sec duration with 20 sec recast, unless you remove casting time and recovery there is going to be a period of 2 secs where the mob is free. Thats <b>not</b> locked down. Thats also assuming no resists.I can't say I ever managed to lock down 4 mobs at once. It only became possible with the increased duration of Reverie and thats only assuming you got no resists on the spell and the mobs are all nicely seperated so you can actually pick your target and see which one needs mez refreshed. Typically if you're in the situation where you need to mez 4 mobs at once they're all going to be stacked on top of the group. Thats also assuming the group is going to just stand back and single target dps while you slowly work your way through each mob. No AoE dots or out of encounter AoE's, like that ever happens</font>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<font color="#ffff66">I'll reiterate. We've got no choice but to accept the changes</font>. <font color="#ffff66">You've made it abundantly clear that SOE believes this is in the best interest of the game despite most of your player base questioning the need for the change.</font><font color="#ffff66"></font><font color="#ffff66">Now how about giving us something to be happy about instead of yet another week of being kept in the dark?</font><hr></blockquote></div>

[Emerix]

<DIV>/melodramatic faint </DIV> <DIV>First post of a dev in the trouby forums for more than half a year ! *cheers!*</DIV> <DIV>Where we can solo a even con no arrow mob and almost die other classes 2 shot them and can chainpull . Some can even solo blue heroics with ease . Lockeye , dont you think the difference is too harsh ?</DIV>

[Snublefot]

Current build on test have Reverie 1.5s cast, 24s duration and 20s recast.

[Kasar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Narben Von Nacht wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff66">I can't say I ever managed to lock down 4 mobs at once. It only became possible with the increased duration of Reverie and thats only assuming you got no resists on the spell and the mobs are all nicely seperated so you can actually pick your target and see which one needs mez refreshed.</font><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Only time I've seen this done is in the ring event in Blackscale when no enchanters are available.  It's then actually only three to contain, and typically there're several breaks from resists or refreshing the wrong one.  Then it can get fun as the troub's trying to remez one mob while the other timers are running out, the group's on another mob or at least doesn't want to engage these and the mobs're all looking at the troubador with his low avoidance.  Locking them down's not really the phrase I'd use..It's almost boring with a chanter but with most variations of these changes that'll be the only option beyond just letting the mobs beat on the tank until all four are up.  Not really a problem for those already geared up, but that's how most changes work out.</div>

[ximo]

<P>Hi guys, I'm at bit of a loss as to understand why troubs should have their CC reduced?..... As I understand it if the control element of the game is to become relevant why should only 2 classes be able to fill that role? </P> <P>We have plenty of damage and healing classes for example, not just two. </P><p>Message Edited by ximo on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[Nevari]

Thanks for the reply Lockeye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's good to know we not left out on the rain alone. Regardless of agreement or disagreement to the reasoning I do acknowledge the reply and will wait to see eagerly what adjustment aka fixes you got cooking in the nearest future.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Lockeye, Are there any plans to take away concentration costs on certain buffs for bards? Self buffs...tombs...pr/dr?  Are there any plans to basically help us...?<div></div>

[Sir Blig]

<DIV>thanks Snublefot for</DIV> <DIV>"Current build on test have Reverie 1.5s cast, 24s duration and 20s recast. </DIV> <DIV>Level 70 Troubador<BR>Level 70 Provisioner<BR>Memento Mori, Najena "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one resist and one troub in for lots of pain..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok so what gives, were are the problems at solo, group, or raid???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cant be solo, if we Mezed anything more than one then we will losing out on most of our dps due to the effort it takes!!!! 4 mezed in solo, yea right maby the last ditch so that we can run for out lives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group, hmmm 4 mezed = NO DPS and yea with resists and remez fun it is hard enough keeping 3 and the price is heavy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cant be Raid. Ok lost me on this one, most ahem I mean all of this stuff does not effect epics anyway and a few other skill dont work on them either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So um were is the fix, we already paid a very high price for using it, NO DPS, also NO-DEBUFFS or anything else JUST playing the try and find the last target and mez and hope in vain the resists would stay away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also what gives LU13 was supposed to be the fix, LU13 made charm usable(lots on conc to 1), now you are returning it to a state that is as usefull as that and umm, has something changed I believe we still will not be able to instruct the pet to attack, and dont even thing that if you did give us attack that a short duration would make it usable, hmmm AND and the biggest and of all, exactly how many mobs can chanters hold down?????? did we even compare???? NO we gave up everything for those 4, chanters already made us look like children, at this point I realy have to ask not only what is you vision for Troubs but what is you vision for bards!! It is pretty well accepted that bards are Jack of all. With this when you compare us to chanters will we not be more like terrible at all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I see out of this whole things is a massive destruction grouping skills and while we could do with some more dps DO NOT AS A SOLUTION TO THIS JUST MAKE US DO MORE DAMAGE AND TAKE A FEW MORE HITS, we want utility we want things that set us apart from Dirges and give us an identity and Guess what MEZ and CHARM were those things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will stop here, and wont be saying thanks for one post from a dev in the troub section, once we start seeing them more often and see improvement in there dealings with us then I will thank them.</DIV>

[Jerr]

<P>Dont know why some are thanking Lockeye-his post was basically-<STRONG>this is what we are doing, deal with it!!</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Just cause a Dev makes a posts means nothing.</STRONG></P> <P>I know they haven't posted for awhile here, but seriously, Lockeye is the one who thinks Necro Tank pets are overpowered and needs its DPS reduced. I mean come on.  Thats like saying a wet paper bag provides too much protection as body armor.</P> <P>I think it is absurd that the Devs would cause a 98% reduction in anyone's skills.  This is incredibly short-sighted and shows that they don't think things out to well when they let them go live.</P> <P>No class should EVER have a skill reduced 98%.  Thats a slap in the face and a total readjustment of a skill people have based their play on.</P> <P>It shows me that the SOE team really has a hard time finding a role and vision for classes and resorts to the Nerfing tactic to make of for it.</P> <P>People say just adjust your play style-But as a casual player who doesn't get to play that often I AM TIRED of adjusting my play style when I still haven't had the time to figure it out i the first place.</P> <P>I spend some time trying to learn my class and when I start to feel like I am learning something-WHAM-Nerf incoming.  Then I have to try and adjust my play style that I was just starting to feel comfortable with.</P> <P>Have some meetings.  MAke decisions on what you want classes to be and don't worry that some people with great gear can do things you don't want them too.  I will never get fabled gear cause I dont raid and mostly solo the few hours a week I play.  I don't care that others who have more time and invest that time in really learning the class and getting the best gear can solo heroics.  I say Bravo to them.</P> <P>Figure out where you want things and leave them alone for the most part.  A minor tweak here and there is all you should be doing at this stage in the game's life.  You had your time in Beta and early on to do all these drastic changes. Now let people play there classes.</P> <P>Cheers,</P> <P>Jerril</P> <P> </P>

[Emerix]

I thank him because he made clear that SOE doesnt just ignore us . They see whats up read what we dont like and dont care =)

[Terabithi]

<P> </P> <P>No, it is actually very exciting to those of us familiar with troubadour problems to see that a [Removed for Content], or anyone else, would post.</P> <P>The people who play troubadours (A CLASS WHICH IS SPELLED INCORRECTLY) strongly feel that their concerns are not being addressed....that the actual playability of the class is at question. They want to be more than raid-buff-bots. They want to be the charming, charismatic players that the game pretends to want to create.</P> <P>But they feel completely ignored by the developers. They feel dis-empowered. They feel the way a dirge should feel.</P> <P>Anyhow, thanks for clearing up that particular issue Deadeye. It helps to know that there is a process involved, and that's something.</P> <P> </P> <P>Terabithian, 52 SK Oasis and the toons. </P>

[Belisarius]

Honestly, i thought id be happy when a dev replyed. But, he just confermed that they dont understand our class. They are little code punchers sitting in a dark room drinking code red screwing our class up, they dont play the class 7+hours a day to understand how big of a hit this is to us.

[Belisarius]

<P>....This is still ticking me off, lock down 4 encounters, have you ever tried that in a real fight? Not some instance with 4 mobs that a developer made you, but a real fight.<br>When you start getting ressit, start thinking about mez and other things let me tell you this, mezing 3 encounters at once TAKES a troub out of the rest of the fight, it is hard to keep 3 things mez, let alone 4. Hell i've never even tried to mez 4 its so difficult.</P>

[Jaimster]

<P>I'm pretty sure my first post in response to LE wasn't so much nice, as it was simply meant to be civil in telling him he didn't answer anybody's questions... but anyway... yeah I didn't really acknowledge some of the ridiculousness of the rationale.... like everyone else said, while <EM>technically</EM> it might be possible for a troubador to mezz 4 mobs over the course of a minute, it is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] complicated and tiring, and as everyone else pointed out, it basically means we too are locked down doing absolutely nothing.  </P> <P>In general, with a group, that's never going to happen except the one instance in Sepulcher where the game REQUIRES it essentially. It is not something most troubadors (or most of their group members for that matter) would ever choose to do of their own volition.  Great, so a huge change to our class is based on something that is technically possible, but rarely ever done.  </P> <P>/golfclap</P> <P>and for the "test subject" troubador in crafted gear (legendary or the regular stuff??) with app3 spells, What LEVEL was that Troubador? 15, 20, 30 even? Because it is highly unlikely that it was level 70.  And who was it who tested? If it was a developer, don't you think that skews the results a little?</P> <P>I mean, it'd be pretty easy for me as the cook (game developers) to figure out what ingredients (mobs, spells, etc) I'd put into dinner (the game) but a little less so for someone who just ate the meal (paying players)....  Even if no one seems to understand what troubadors are, as a dev it'd be pretty easy to figure out the mechanics of playing it just long enough to get the results you wanted.</P> <P>Oh well, baby brigand for now... </P>

[Sunlei]

<P> I like the way charm is on my Troub. now. </P> <P>The charm is what I'm used to playing with, charm is the reason I like soloing with the class.  </P> <P>A few months ago when you changed the classes and when we logged in my scout with combat exp. stopped for a year was 'forced' to select a class. I researched what class to select from the SOE provided spell info. and info off the SOE messageboards. Charm was one of the main reasons I choose Troub. rather than any other  scout class. </P> <P>To me, this removal of the charm spell  is removing the most fun(to me) part of playing this class.  I didn't then want to play a raid buff bot class, nor do I now! want to play a nurfed like heck, poorest dps scout class.  I would have picked a different scout class if I wanted to be a sword slashing-dps 'in the monsters face'..mano-to-mano soloer.</P> <P>I feel like whining for a CLASS /respect right now because it's soes fault, your fault!! for giving a class these abilities for *so long* and now just gutting the class. Gutting it!!</P>

[starlight02]

<DIV>thanks for the response.  no, i'm not really happy with it, but i do appreciate you letting us know where you're coming from.  =)  take care!!!</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>So now we have hardly anything to do on a raid once our buffs are up, why don't you let us use our control spells except epics too?</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<BR><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This shows you have no clue what the real problems are with the troub class.  There are so few Troubs that if they can mez 4 targets no one really cares.  Ask yourself why no one plays the class.  Work on fixing up troubs and dirges rather than nerfing the little usefullnes they have.<BR>

[Bartimaeus]

<DIV>How the hell are we supposed to solo now? Even now BEFORE these changes, we are much slower to kill, and slower to recouperate from a heroic fight in say, SoS. I watch conjurors, bruisers, berserkers, ANYTHING BUT BARDS chain pulling heroics (level 63's etc) while I work my [Removed for Content] off, use about 50% of my life and 60% of my power to work over a single mob. The only thing that saved my [Removed for Content] before was mezzing any wanderer adds I get while I slowly (ever so slowly) kill anything that comes my way</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> Current build on test have Reverie 1.5s cast, 24s duration and 20s recast.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lmfao, this is their change? Thats pathetic..</DIV>

[Lachlan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Lockeye wrote:</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff6600>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<BR></FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off, thanks for dropping in. </P> <P>Locking down 4 creatures??  61 Troub here and I have to say debuffing and mezing 2 puts me in a oom no DPS situation in a hurry.  If I use charm and mez I might hold 3 but things break, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] happens and so on.  It's not how the class is being used by the vast majority because exp group mainly rely on tank CC and raids use enchanters.  Solo, bards are not even in the top 3 for solo classes.  So, I disagree with the premise.</P> <P>That said, I look at your ending statements: 1) <FONT color=#ff3300>"I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells."</FONT>   2) <FONT color=#ff3300>"I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed."</FONT></P> <P>1)  We are THE weakest dps scout.  The old mez was our main fallback/strategy in so many instances where we cannot just push a button and drop burst dps like some Assassins/Rangers nor rely on big AoE attacks and poison to shorten a fight with adds.  We have (had) mez. </P> <P>2) You can say that again.</P> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>Lockeye, </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>I am aware that you'll have to go to a conference room and sell any changes you make that result in increased dps to this class and explain why they are warrented.  For high end Troubs where the groups have already maxed out key stats we basically offer power regen and mez.  Our dps is a joke.  People are not kidding when they say we're just going to be a mana battery now.  If you don't go to bat for Troubadours now, our worst fears are going to be the status quo for the next year or more.  Please consider:</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#0066ff>Since Aria proc nerf AND poison proc changes is there any reason why Bard classes should still be restriced from poisons?  </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#0066ff>If Mez / Charm are going this route no matter what we all want, are our debuffs adequate enough anymore?  </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#0066ff>With better and better mounts available is a 34% speed buff (non-combat only, non-stealth only) really all that great?  </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#0066ff>I'm on a PvP server.  Have you thought about how this effects PvP? Some other tools, dps, bigger debuffs, root, something or it's going to be very painful for us.</FONT></LI></UL><FONT color=#0066ff> <P>If mez/charm nerfs are absolutely necessary for this *never before accused of being overpowered* class then so are some reasonable offsetting changes to keep it in line with other scouts.  That's all I and many are asking for, some parity.  Thanks.  Good luck.<BR><BR></P></FONT> <P><BR><BR></P>

[Terabithi]

<P> </P> <P>I can't seem to edit my earlier post, and just wanted to say "sorry Lockeye for calling you Deadeye". lol</P> <P>Bah. whatever. I'm lucky I can remember my own name these days....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Grubbyc]

<P>As a Troub, I don't mind that they nerfed our charm.</P> <P>I am also ok with our low DPS, when I think of a wandering minstrel I don't think of a ninja.</P> <P>What I would like however, is something class defining and cool that is obvious to people. Buffs are cool, but not obvious, not flashy, but definately a part of out class. What I would like is maybe some buff that changes the appearance of the target called "ego boost" or something that improves the target DPS - Proc kind of thing. I know we have good procs to add to the party already, but I don't think they get noticed much. That or how about a spell that allows for a wildcard HO response so that it can be used for a missing class in the party.  </P> <P>I guess my point is that I think of Troubs-Dirges as a support class, and one that should enhance everyone else in the party to make them desirable in a group even if they don't have DPS or MOB killer spells. </P> <P>I think that troubs do help a group, and contribute more than people realize. I also thing that it would help the class if that help were a bit more glaring. </P> <P> </P> <P>Grubbypaw 70 Troub  </P> <P> </P>

[Aienaa]

<DIV>Lockeye....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this line right here is your #1 problem...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (</FONT><FONT color=#ff3300 size=6>and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change</FONT><FONT color=#33cc00>).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Where exactly is the majority of your player base?  The test server?  I don't think so...  The test server doesn't even account for 1/100th of the games population...  Yet, you are saying that you don't give a crap about what the majority of the players have to say...   Your saying that thoes people that do not play on the test server don't know a thing about thier class because they don't have the comprehension to understand how a change will effect them...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People have been complaining since day 1 that there is not enough interaction between development and the player base...  Well, you have shown everyone exactly what you think of them...   In that 1 sentence right there, you have proved that you don't give a crap about what anyone that plays the game thinks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have pretty much 100% of the Troubador community telling you that these changes are NOT the right thing to do...  Not only that, you have a good portion of the non-Troubador community telling you that these changes are a bad decision....  Yet here you are comming out and telling everyone that you don't care about what they think....   I'm sure this is going to win you popularity points...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 63 Troubador</DIV>

[Trabbart]

<DIV>Thnx for showing us that you realize we exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also made it clear that as it stands you are intending to suck the last bit of fun out of the class, and that you have no concern for player invested time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I started my only played character, before lu1 , because of the " jack of all trades"and the charm/mezz ability.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Jack of all trades we are not because :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. All classes seems to be jack of most trades , and master of some.</DIV> <DIV>2. We offer a very limited unactive set of skills and dmg is solely based on mental.</DIV> <DIV>3. Our limited skill set is uninspired and mostly unneeded because of caps and easy to get ingame items that offer better. (resists)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that you have decided to take away our DEFINING class ability charm/mezz you basically take away our "raison d'etre" . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>It makes me VERY ANGRY and FRUSTRATED that you can even think to SO RADICALLY change and take away a class defining abilty after nearly 2 years. And just casually tell us that we werent really meant to have it. NONSENSE. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>This particular change/disrespect takes away the reason to play a troubador and EQ2.  </STRONG></U></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i dont see why there cant be 3 mezz/charm classes. We allready were VERY limited in what we could do with charm AND mezz. your hypothetical 4 mob lockdown would take a troub completely out of the game (no dps*) ,  takes a minute to achieve with no resists, no dmg/dots/ae from other groupmembers and the eye coordination of superman.  Maybe your spreadsheet can do it, i cant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont be stupid. You allready are competing with summer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>* (i actually had to laugh here)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Calman]

<div></div>I can't understand why EQ2 is hitting bards so bad all the time. Unless they have a plan to implement musical instruments (after nearly 2 years)  and they got together and thought best nerf emfirst so they think they are getting something cool. sorta starving us then feeding us a horrible meal. However they probably just don't give a poo how we feel, is more like it.<div></div>

[Rainfinder]

<P>I have never posted before now. Thanks for repsonding to a troub thread lockeye. But I felt it a must to respond to what you wrote here..</P> <P>After playing a troub for over a year and then some ive seen the changes to our class. Yes the troubador class has evolved since the time ive started playing it. Biggest factor I see as is now , and not trying to pick on any class here - but troubs   are mini chanters.</P> <P>Enchanters provide simular buffs as we do - very comparable in power buff wise to us troubs. As do many classes. Enchanters out dps us , this of corse I can accept they are a mage class and meant to do so. We at present have some crowd control , but it is very limited compared to a chanter. Where in all of this did you decide that it was nessasary to nerf our crowd control ?</P> <P>As if it made troubs unbalanced. As it stands troubs and chanters are rare. Im not seeing the point of nerfing one of a proffesions prime abilities and act like it  some how fits into a scheme of things. Troubs are mini chanters - when you take our crowd control away what does it make us ? As it stands it will be more useful to have a chanter around than a troub when this new live update hits. Chanters can provide power regen + haste + other buffs - and you stated you made sure that a troub could still solo even con mobs in crafted gear?</P> <P>My point being - why be a troub after this live update 24 hits ? When you can get near all we have to offer + stun / strife epics from a chanter and greater crowd control.</P> <P>Message Edited by Rainfinder on <SPAN class=date_text>05-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:03 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Rainfinder on <SPAN class=date_text>05-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rainfinder on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 PM</span>

[plutek]

<div></div>Okay, while I would love to thank Lockeye for posting to us, I don't think I can find it within myself to. As silly as it seems, the Charm spell was actually a big part of my own RP (I play on Anotnia Bayle). My character had an affinity for charming large cats or small drakes, etc, (all non heroic, usually grey-con) as sort of a travelling companion for her own entertainment purposes. /dramatic sighDon't get me wrong, I used the charm in combat, as well. The same with Reverie. As for DPS.. I was in a goof-off group last night with guildmates. It consisted of a Monk, two Templars and myself. I admit, my Troubadour is most likely one of the better outfitted (two relic pieces, along with other fabled and legendary sprinkled in). Most of my spells are masters or adept IIIs. We were running around going all-out on mobs in the Den of the Devourer. Guess who did less damage than a -templar- on more than one occaision? Haha. I can't be expected to solo well without some sort of help, even if it is just locking down a mob or two and slowly working my way through them. (Quick note - I hate parsers, I hate it when people compete for DPS top spots; I was unhappy that someone was posting DPS results in the group, but I can't ignore the facts, heh.) I'm not a big fan of soloing, I try to avoid it. But in those downtimes (or when I just wanted to find myself some dang spongy loam <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) I do solo. As for troubadours locking down four targets? I agree with the majority, it's too much work and too complicated for most of us to bother doing. Take a few of us from the boards, throw us into your "testing" situation. We'll tell you how you're "testing" wrong and show you how we <i>really</i> work in a realistic situation. I'd be more than willing to offer my services, as I'm sure others would, as well. I'm so up in arms about this. I'll force myself to adapt, but I just don't think it's going to be nearly as fun. <i>Edited for spelling and trying to make more sense. ^_^</i><div></div><p>Message Edited by plutek on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 AM</span>

[Baynne]

<DIV>this is directed mostly at the one dev ive ever seen reply to these threads here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as paying customers, i think it is safe to say we are all getting very crappy service from the prividers.  first off, it does nto take a rocket scientist to see that troubs are genuinely upset about these changes, THEY DO NOT WANT THEM.  at the very least they are asking for some in return for what you are taking away.  how many people that work at SoE actually play the game, play each class in our situations and understand exactly what is wrong?  not nearly enough.  here you have the voices of hundreds, maybe thousands of people between this and many many other threads all saying the same thing.  we pay to play this game fine... it is our choice to hand our money to a greedy corporation that really does not care about said people.  your twisted idea of "overpowered" and "unbalanced" is anything that we enjoy in the game.  you are faster to nerf anything we find useful into complete nothingness before half of us even know about it.  i can say this as a paying customer who has been waiting for 3 weeks now to get a return email from customer service about an account issue.... and if i called i think i would just end up cussing out the poor sap that answered the phone.  but that is not the topic here, just an example of what what you really think of your customers.  i say this all the time "i hate sony with a passion, but i'm addicted to their stupid game."  why? maybe i just have nothing better to do.  my point is sony has control over every possible aspect of our in-game lives, and it is a scary thought when you think about it.  all this crap was brought down because of chanters.  the genius devs decided, "hey, enchanters need to be made more powerful... let's make EVERYONE else weaker to compensate!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it just baffles me that these monkeys can read how upset troubs are, and peel a banana and forget about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i suppose that's enough ranting from me... see? even the non-bards are complaining.. HINT HINT!!</DIV>

[Sir Blig]

<DIV>someone said <FONT color=#c8c1b5>7/11/06</FONT> </DIV>

[MrHell]

And you wonder why Devs dont post in the Troub forums? I play a troub myself (currently only mid 30's) and am not worried by these changes. I agree that Troubs had too many powerful CC abilities and we shouldnt get anything to make up for these reductions. The thing I do want is something Class Defining and not to just be a buff bot. I like the idea of a "possess minion" type spell to replace the charm. We would get to play with a mob for a short duration while our body stayed there will passive buffs on. Anyone got any cool ideas? <div></div>

[Tipa]

Charm and mez were our class defining traits. They were why I chose a troubador over a dirge. Now we have nothing that sets us apart from a dirge save our lack of dps. <div></div>

[Hogatha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrHell wrote:<BR>And you wonder why Devs dont post in the Troub forums?<BR><BR>I play a troub myself (currently only mid 30's) and am not worried by these changes. I agree that Troubs had too many powerful CC abilities and we shouldnt get anything to make up for these reductions. The thing I do want is something Class Defining and not to just be a buff bot.<BR><BR>I like the idea of a "possess minion" type spell to replace the charm. We would get to play with a mob for a short duration while our body stayed there will passive buffs on.<BR><BR>Anyone got any cool ideas?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't want to sound like all I can be is negative, but I went through this already with LU#13 and my Fury.  I no longer liked the class, so then what did I do?  Did I quit?, no...  I rerolled as a class that <EM>to me</EM> the defining abilities were charm (fine just the way it was/is on the live servers) and the mesmerize.  What do you expect all of us troubs to do, just let it all happen, I suppose.  What I, and I am sure many others, am trying to do is state what I think about this mess before it goes beyond testing, to create a well-deserved uproar (I'm actually trying to be polite :smileyvery-happy: ) and possibly prevent what I think is a huge mistake.  We are only a handful of the playerbase here posting, and I know if I didn't keep up reading on the message boards, I'd be one p.o.'d customer to find these changes have gone live. 

[MrHell]

<div></div>Yes, Charm and Mez were your defining skills. Devs have stated this isnt going to be the case in the future (at least not as powerful as it was). They do what is best for the game, not what the players want. I doubt anything we say will stop this happening (eg your Fury, though they rock atm) so we might as well give them some other things to think about. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MrHell on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[Hogatha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrHell wrote:<BR> Yes, Charm and Mez were your defining skills. <STRONG>Devs have stated this isnt going to be the case in the future</STRONG> (at least not as powerful as it was). They do what is best for the game, not what the players want. I doubt anything we say will stop this happening (eg your Fury, though they rock atm) so we might as well give them some other things to think about.<BR> <P>Message Edited by MrHell on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...and now for my rant....</P> <P>They should present this to players at the time of character creation, y'know, it might be nice to be informed that said current ability, spell, purpose is not the planned/intended version of this class state at this time.  Therefore, what is being presented now, what the player is selecting as choice of class, is not what it will eventually become....bleh</P> <P>and then they wonder why players say this game is still in beta...</P> <P>I don't mind change most of the time, but obviously some of the classes in this game are not solid and certainly not defined enough that they will down the road be the same class that was originally chosen for play.  </P>

[MrHell]

<div></div>I do agree that classes shouldnt change significantly. Why waste countless hours playing if your classes ends up being something completely different? Thats why I would love to see something "in character" done for Troubs. Something unique would be great. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MrHell on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[Sile]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MrHell wrote:And you wonder why Devs dont post in the Troub forums?I play a troub myself (currently only mid 30's) and am not worried by these changes. I agree that Troubs had too many powerful CC abilities and we shouldnt get anything to make up for these reductions. The thing I do want is something Class Defining and not to just be a buff bot.I like the idea of a "possess minion" type spell to replace the charm. We would get to play with a mob for a short duration while our body stayed there will passive buffs on.Anyone got any cool ideas?<div></div><hr></blockquote>You can always try <a target="_blank" href="http://www.care-bears.com">http://www.care-bears.com</a>  <span>How do you gauge that our CC abilities were too powerful? Just curious, from your perspective.  From my perspective, it's utter rubbish.  Remember, we can't even mez/charm the majority of epic mobs.  Charm was never that amazing to begin with, now it will just be crappy.  For mez, we'll go from being able to mez 4-5 mobs to just 1.  This is all on top of the DPS nerf (procs) we already suffered.  I doubt these changes are or will be as noticeable at lower levels.They absolutely need to do something to give this class back some umph and make up for the recent nerfs.If you want to read cool ideas, check through the forum here, lots of threads already.</span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.care-bears.com"></a></div>

[MrHell]

Oh thank you! I love care bears <span>:smileysurprised:</span> /roll I started a Troub because I level alot with a Troub from 50-60 and saw all the cool stuff they could do... Tank, CC, DPS. It was amazing utility and I thought it would be fun. I raid with a few troubs and there DPS is on par with what it should be. No probs with that. <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrHell wrote:<BR><BR>I play a troub myself (currently only mid 30's) and am not worried by these changes. I agree that Troubs had too many powerful CC abilities and we shouldnt get anything to make up for these reductions. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR></P> <P>I'm sorry... I had to do it (I swore I would). You have no idea what we're talking about if you are only level 30. I know that probably sounds elitist, but really... I'm glad you'll never know what you're missing... and for your information, prior to their change of the class description, which only happened recently, part of our main description was about crowd control... the other two were power drain (BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and buffing (Yes, that, we actually do).</P> <P>So originally (like the past year and a half or 2 years) at least 1/3 of our abilities were CC...</P> <P>Again... I apologize if it sounds elitist, but seriously, our best group/solo abilities are given to us at level 50, Since we got an upgrade at level 70 it wasn't until well AFTER KoS came out that they decided to take an axe to our CC's.... grrrrrrr</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jaimster on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 AM</span>

[MrHell]

<div></div>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> read the rest of my posts. I lvled from 50-60 (mostly) with a Trio of Inquisitor (me), Troub, and Wiz. From this experience of Troub tanking, CC, and DPS I decided that I wanted to start one (after DoF but prior KoS). Go scream elsewhere. I am disappointed that I am not going to be able to experience the current 50+ Troub but nothing I say will change this. The devs have stated its changing and you gotta just roll with it. Anyway, the point of my posts is to stop whining like a little girl and give the devs some suggestions on what to do with the class to make it viable (taking into consideration the stated CC changes). Edit: I'll just go back to lurking in this forum since it doesnt seem worth giving you guys some suggestions on how to best shape Troubadors. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MrHell on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

[Hogatha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrHell wrote:<BR> The devs have stated its changing and you gotta just roll with it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, you're right.  I imagine even if the whole troubador community at large (seeing how small it is) canceled their subscriptions, it would have no effect whatsoever on this game's future, or how later changes would come into play.   However, if this keeps up with each class getting their eyes poked out, eventually it will take its toll.  You can't just take every bit of fun out of a game and expect people to stick around. 

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>I raid with a few troubs and there DPS is on par with what it should be. No probs with that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I play a troub myself (currently only mid 30's) and am not worried by these changes. I agree that Troubs had too many powerful CC abilities and we shouldnt get anything to make up for these reductions.</FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P>If you say these things then you seriously don't know what your talking about....  Troubs get out DPS's by just about every class out there including clerics, yet you want to try saying that troub DPS is on par where it should be??  I was in SoS today playing my Lev 63 Troub and on average I was hitting aroung 250 DPS and getting out DPS by the guardian...  Oh yeah, that is definaly on par...  I supose the Fury that was doing 150-200 more DPS than me was on Par also??  yeah, right.....</P> <P>You also say you have a 30 Troub and that CC is too powerful, yet at level 30 you don't even have mez....  How can you possibly come here and tell us that something you don't even have is too powerful??  When was the last time you played your Troub?  It's not even listed on your sig, so it must not be a character your really interested in...</P> <P>Sorry, but if all you want to do is come in here and call us all whiners (<FONT color=#ffff00>the point of my posts is to stop whining like a little girl</FONT>), then please go elsewhere, while thoes of us concerned about the class try to prevent this horrid change from happening....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 63 Troubador</P>

[Trabbart]

<P>Dear Mr. Hell,</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT size=2>Mr Hell wrote</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Thanks <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0>read the rest of my posts. I lvled from 50-60 (mostly) with a Trio of Inquisitor (me), Troub, and Wiz. From this experience of Troub tanking, CC, and DPS I decided that I wanted to start one (after DoF but prior KoS). Go scream elsewhere.<BR><BR>I am disappointed that I am not going to be able to experience the current 50+ Troub but nothing I say will change this. The devs have stated its changing and you gotta just roll with it.<BR><BR>Anyway, the point of my posts is to stop whining like a little girl and give the devs some suggestions on what to do with the class to make it viable (taking into consideration the stated CC changes).<BR><BR>Edit: I'll just go back to lurking in this forum since it doesnt seem worth giving you guys some suggestions on how to best shape Troubadors.<BR></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Message Edited by MrHell on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>05-29-2006</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN> </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2>--------------<BR><BR>70 Dark Elf Inquisitor of Najena<BR>58 Wood Elf Assassin of Najena </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I like your comments and ideas. Some of my suggestions to balance troubadors i like to put forward to the develloping team are:  </P> <P>Make Inquisitors cloth wearers and take away most of their heals, their dps is ok. I play a level 2 Inquisitor and he owns the isle, someting just isnt right here.</P> <P>Take away assasins track and make it that they can only use their abilities at night (seems more appropriate). I dont play an assasin but i once grouped with one.</P> <P>Thnx again for your valuable input, keep it coming.</P>

[Baynne]

<P>what i dont understand "MrHell"... is how your argument is that you hunt with a troub and know what they can do, and not see what you will be missing.  you point out what great CC this troub is... failing to see that this will be cut down by up to 75% - mezzing 4 mobs down to 1.  i am curious as to what godly weapons he uses to be such high DPS too.  the bards role in any game has always been to sing lullabys that pacify or mez mobs, preventing them from doing damage to the group, even charming them to turn against their own allies for a short time.  their songs offer insipration within their friends to do great things, aka more DPS to the group, faster regen of body and spirit, and the most common known trait: run speed.  indirectly, yes, they are great DPS, but not in themselves.. their DPS lies within the sung inspiration of their group members.  i welcome any true bard, seeing as im not one myself, and they must be higher than lvl 30..... to tell me that i am wrong and have no idea what im talking about.</P> <P>to say that the bards in this game are not being stripped of their core abilities is proof enough you know not what you speak of.</P>

[Mulilla]

<DIV>I have been a faithful customer & player since day 1.  I have only a char, my troubie, just because i want to get everything of my class, i dont have any alts.  It took me a week or so to decide who would i become in EQ2: i read every description about classes, races, everything i could find about spells, tactics, player feelings... that time invested was worth because it was going to be my impersonation in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were 2 main reasons to become a troub: BUFFS, MEZZ</DIV> <DIV>I had to relearn my class from scratch when LU13 hit live.  I have to admit that at that point, toubs WHERE overpowered due to buff stacking.  Anyway i think that could be fixed without a total revamp of the class... but no complaints, at least our fellow dirges got a bit of lovin'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As time went by (and a couple of nerf bat hitting), i saw how every single class start to do EVERYTHING better than me...  better buffs, better debuffs, better DPS... well, i was a little [Removed for Content] about that, but you know what?? i didnt care a ****  Why? BECAUSE I HAD FUN WITH MY TROUB.</DIV> <DIV><BR>The people who i play with know that my dps sucks, i play lots of time with a coercer, so power regen is not an issue, i also play with a brigand, so dont tell me that our debuffs rule, pls i am not stupid.  K, so it's not because my dps, nor my buffs, debuffs... hell, the only thing that keeps me playing is that stupid CC!!  And i am talking regular grouping CC, wich is a couple of adds sometimes.  The coercer who i play with, lets me get CC duties just because he can outdamage me anytime with a couple of keypresses.  And a couple of adds is something every group can handle without CC, btw...  The truth is that i've become quite good at CC, even with our limitations, using every single spell in our arsenal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was about grouping, in raids i could be easily dual boxed, since i only do something after a wipe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and that is cast the buffs.  REst of the time i could only autoattack, just to feel i'm doing something to earn that loot.  The truth is that noone notice if we debuff, although i tend to do it, to consume some power <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i dont want to feel like a slaker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So basically, by stealing our CC abilities, our group play will be fair similar to our raid play, wich is completely boring.  I dont want to comment on our solo play, just because it sucks so much that i really think it is a joke from an evil dev.  Just keep screwing my class up so noone plays it again, looks like that is your master plan and you are doing it really well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When LU24 test patch notes were post on the forums my game time decayed like 80%.  Now it has been like 9 days without playing.  I will wait to quit till you release it live, something i know you will do, no matter what we say.<BR></DIV>

[Myrddhinn]

<DIV>+1 Mulillla.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We play the same. Day 1. No Alts. Fun and loyal group. LU13. Raid. CC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just found my alter ego on another server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for this post</DIV>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baynne wrote:<BR> <P>what i dont understand "MrHell"... is how your argument is that you hunt with a troub and know what they can do, and not see what you will be missing.  you point out what great CC this troub is... failing to see that this will be cut down by up to 75% - mezzing 4 mobs down to 1.  i am curious as to what godly weapons he uses to be such high DPS too.  the bards role in any game has always been to sing lullabys that pacify or mez mobs, preventing them from doing damage to the group, even charming them to turn against their own allies for a short time.  their songs offer insipration within their friends to do great things, aka more DPS to the group, faster regen of body and spirit, and the most common known trait: run speed.  indirectly, yes, they are great DPS, but not in themselves.. their DPS lies within the sung inspiration of their group members.  i welcome any true bard, seeing as im not one myself, and they must be higher than lvl 30..... to tell me that i am wrong and have no idea what im talking about.</P> <P>to say that the bards in this game are not being stripped of their core abilities is proof enough you know not what you speak of.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>He (and his Troub friend who is level 50-60) believes that we are overpowered with our mezzes.  I cannot think of anything to add beyond that, except that he thought he was coming up with ideas to make us better when they take those things away... except we have tried that already. MrHell go read some of our posts, they are a mixture of ideas, of [Removed for Content] off, of sadness, of, quite frankly, a little bit of everything. </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrHell wrote:<BR> Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> read the rest of my posts. I lvled from 50-60 (mostly) with a Trio of Inquisitor (me), Troub, and Wiz. From this experience of Troub tanking, CC, and DPS I decided that I wanted to start one (after DoF but prior KoS). Go scream elsewhere.<BR><BR>I am disappointed that I am not going to be able to experience the current 50+ Troub but nothing I say will change this. The devs have stated its changing and you gotta just roll with it.<BR><BR>Anyway, the point of my posts is to stop whining like a little girl and give the devs some suggestions on what to do with the class to make it viable (taking into consideration the stated CC changes).<BR><BR>Edit: I'll just go back to lurking in this forum since it doesnt seem worth giving you guys some suggestions on how to best shape Troubadors.<BR> <P>Message Edited by MrHell on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Problem is you don't even follow your own advice. You come in here and tell us to stop whinning and find "solutions". If they don't care for our complaints why would they care for our "solutions"? Just let people vent.</P> <P>By the way, after LU24, a swashie will be close to a troubs CC, and better at tank and DPS, you might want to check those out.</P>

[Coppun]

Guess the truth hurts...  posts gets deleted.  Baaa  baaa goes the sheep that follow every whim of these toolbags....<div></div>

[SureShot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tipa wrote:<BR>Charm and mez were our class defining traits. They were why I chose a troubador over a dirge.<BR><BR>Now we have nothing that sets us apart from a dirge save our lack of dps.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>EXACLTY.  This is the most disturbing part of this live update. 

[SureShot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myrddhinn wrote:<BR> <DIV>+1 Mulillla.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We play the same. Day 1. No Alts. Fun and loyal group. LU13. Raid. CC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just found my alter ego on another server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for this post</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Make that triplets.  This is me to a T.

[Tipa]

Charm and Mez were why people would look at my class with excitement and want to play one. It is what I do in groups when things get hairy. After LU24, what will be our defining feature that will make people say, "I want to play a troubador so that I can ________!". Fill in the blank. Not crowd control, not dps, and buffs are no reason anyone would want to play a class for 70 levels. What is it we do that makes people want to choose a troub? <div></div>

[Tri]

<div></div><div></div>the question is WHY these changes? troubys are one of the least played classes They were half chanters, before they stealth nerfed the class description. Isnt that a decent reason to be sad/mad/furious/fed up with the game? its like not telling guardians they were becoming cloth wearing dps ... i wonder how would feel a trouby on a 2 month break when he comes back. Well most troubs chose the class because they were half chanters, because they were getting LIMITED crowd control. ( and run speed ) Ruining a rare class in hoping of rearranging combat issues??? what kind of excuse is that? you can make some mobs harder, but that is not a very WoW direction is it? here are some ideas : leave the CC as it is as the three subclasses who have those abilities are the least played. we are nowhere close to a chantys CC abilities no second line of mez if the first one is broken/resisted to insta cast another one no group mez no epic mez And you still dare to say its overpowered?game breaking? Are they saying they didnt intend to put some CC abilities in eq2? they wanted to find a way for a group to handle adds without the old mez system ( notice the term mez wasnt used in the begining in eq2 if i remember well ) but then why make chanters better CC and troubadOUrs even worse? I dont even feel like talking about the charm.... there are 25 troubs,200 scouts,  on the 999 lvl 70 players on permafrost , yep too many players in those classes, they had to find a way to push players back to the other classes noticed anything else? how they try  to be subtle on the changes so other players dont get freaked out on the LU notes? drasticly reduced -> it sure is scary saying reduced by 7min and 22 seconds set to 6 seconds -> is it so hard to say reduced from 8 sec to 6? Are they taking us for folks even more stupid than wha we are? They needed to look on our AAs , i m hoping to see if 1point or 4 in allegro will still have the same effect on most spells They needed to look at our buffs, nope neither there They managed to "fix" the only things that were working .... Anyway seeing how you must not have high level feedback on your game, here are some ideas Give some single target buffs, more powerfull than the group ones , add something else than power depletion on PvE, like power drain ( shouldnt be that hard to do ) as our buffs in high end gaming are just a sprinkle of cinnamon to add a bit of flavor on a cinnamon stuffed cake : you can easily reach our buffs with a few items ( defense / mellee and casting skills ) you can easily add a lot more resists than the spells we have with some easy to get items we add some dps to sky rocketting dps class a ranger wont cry on 20% haste, but his self buffs are far more powerfull, and who else needs a haste spell other than dps mellee classes?  sure hasten the wizard he ll love hitting with his stick... a wizi wont mind having a 350 mental damage proc on a 10k crit hit The requieme of reflection song is rarely used, here again, wonder why? make it a fixed % chance of reflecting a spell , or with a limited number of reflections Anything usefull that is, thats what you could ask of a class defining skill Now i'm just waiting for them to say our speed buff is too high my 2 copper, Teldea <div></div><p>Message Edited by Triag on <span class="date_text">05-29-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:37 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Triag on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Cynnigig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tipa wrote:<BR>and buffs are no reason anyone would want to play a class for 70 levels.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Looking at the current class description, SOE surely seem to think it is enough.</P> <P>I cannot really envision the designers of one of the major online games just redesigning a class based on their own personal whims. SOE will also be looking at the numbers of troubadours on the servers and deducing that they are very low. So, obviously people are not happy with the class. SOE must have more hard facts than we do, because they seem to have decided the class is unpopular, because it is too complicated and difficult to play. Their research must have shown them, that the troubadour class will become more popular with players, if it is reduced to a buff bot class. Hence, the quite up-front class description.</P> <P>I guess there are multitudes waiting to create one of these new troubadours, so losing some of us old-timers, who liked the complexity of the class, is a calculated trade-off for SOE. I am personally astonished at the fact, that there is an audience for this type of buff bot class. Maybe there are more dual-boxers around than I thought.</P>

[plutek]

<div></div>The new description for the troubadours is just plain silly, the 'addition' to it doesn't even describe the class. They may well add that "popular" line to all calss descriptions:Make the dirge description say that they are popular with melee. Oh! And be sure to include "And the warden/fury/templar/inquisitor/mystic/defiler is popular with all classes because of their healing/warding abilities!" Also "The guardian is particularly popular in raid-tanking situations because of (whatever) abilities."/sighs and shakes head<div></div><p>Message Edited by plutek on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[starlight02]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baynne wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all this crap was brought down because of chanters.  the genius devs decided, "hey, enchanters need to be made more powerful... let's make EVERYONE else weaker to compensate!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>oh my goodness, that has been my mantra recently...i swear!  i personally love grouping with chanters, and i agree they could use a little bit of love in the updates (since they are somewhat underbalanced, but not near as underbalanced as us).  however, why not actually GIVE to a class for once, instead of taking away?  they could have just increased the chanters effectiveness, making everyone happy.  i seriously doubt people would have started the "nerf chanters" witch hunt.  BUT NO!  that would actually make the poor addicted paying customers happy!  instead of giving chanters a boost, soe decides to dumb everyone else down, making their charm/mez skills virtually useless.  if you don't ever use cc, that's your play style...more power to you.  however, don't tell all of us who DO use it that we're stupid for doing so, or that they're completely unecessary, or that they're overpowered.  true, we USED to have mediocre dps before they "fixed" the proc rates on aria (again, because of a problem with the chanters).  so (as has been stated previously in five billion posts) we're reduced to buffing...at least until the next lu, when i'm sure they'll nerf those as well.  =P  all that aside, i still love my troub, and i'm not going to cancel my account.  hopefully soe will see the error of their ways and fix us sometime soon.  *crosses fingers* take care!!!

[plutek]

<div></div><div><blockquote><div></div>*blinks and giggles at the signature above*</blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by plutek on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[LordCalido]

<P>I have nothing new to say that hasn't been said in the above 80 or more posts. I'm posting to show my support of the issues that are being brought up here.</P> <P> </P> <P>What I see happening is the same thing that has happened in the past, Sony keeps nerfing until they take every last bit of fun out of a game. While the Devs says this is what's best for the game, I disagree. Look at how many players are up in arms about these changes, perhaps the devs are wrong. Just maybe the players play this game as much if not more than you do and know how it is to play these classes on a daily basis.</P> <P>What I suggest to Sony and it's Devs is to listen to the issues that the players bring up. We are your customers and decide ultimately if EQ2 is what we want to play for our past time.</P>

[Jaimster]

The most astonishing thing to me is how these issues have brought out people who never or rarely every post... ever. That in itself should say something... I don't think I have ever seen as many posts by "Newbie" posters as I have in the past few weeks.  Thanks for the support guys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's a shame it was a negative issue that brought you all out.

[Tipa]

Well it was reading the release notes which brought me here, for sure. I just made 50 a few weeks back, and could not believe how the world opened up. After 49 levels of doing less and less, suddenly I could make groups glad they invited a troub. I got comments from people with baby troubs that they were looking forward to leveling theirs up! I could FINALLY SOLO WRITS without horrendous downtime! In my mind, troubs were right up there with the other scout classes for utility. I might not do much DPS but look what else I can do! Then I read about the upcoming LU and started working on my Inquisitor again. But dammit. I love being a troub. Back in EQ1 in the OLD OLD days, you could be a useful bard in a group by just sitting in a corner with power song running. Then they decided to give bards a boost, with Fading Memories, wonderful lulls, charms, AEs and so on. Though difficult to play, EQ1 bards were one of the most rewarding classes if you stuck with it. But now WE'RE being nerfed so that you might as well be an EQ1 bard trying to solo by melee with Psalm of Veeshan running. Waiting for the other shoe to drop, where they tell us what they're giving us to compensate. Give us better tanking and dps and I'll call it even.  Make our AEs do warlock damage or debuff encounters vastly. But don't you dare take away the very reason people play troubs and give us nothing in return. <div></div>

[Kasar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Tipa wrote:Well it was reading the release notes which brought me here, for sure. But now WE'RE being nerfed so that you might as well be an EQ1 bard trying to solo by melee with Psalm of Veeshan running.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That appears to be the plan.  You can try a beta-buffed troub on test and be the only one on the server most of the time.  Rare crafted armor/jewelry and all adept III's, not the gear I'd pick, but it's standard scout gear so gives minimal int/wis and solid melee stats.2.5s to cast charm, 8s before the mob turns and you can try to get it mezzed at least before it kills you, which takes another 1.5s, so you're not doing much for 12s (assuming no resists or interrupts) and presumably have another mob beating on you all that time that you were trying to get the charm to help with.  In most cases, you're nearly dead anyway and now can't mez the original for 20s, but you DO have 24s to try and kill the original mob now before the mezzed one joins in again.  So, kick in the uber DPS and... revive.If it's to be "adjusted" that much, just replace it with something else.  It's just hotbar filler with no real usefulness.At least on test you can try other classes and see what skills they have at 70.  I'm thinking there's going to be a lot more rogues around.</div><p>Message Edited by Kasar on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[SerenityCrushbo]

<DIV><FONT size=3>My main character's name is Echo, and I play on the Crushbone server.  My account is almost 750 days old, and I've logged well over 2400 hours in game.  In addition, I have a 70 Inquisitor and a 65 SK that I have also leveled personally.  As I have stated in the past, I understand the need for balance and for change.  I also wanted to take a moment to thank Lockeye for making himself a target and acknowledging that the bard community still exists; however, I cannot fathom how the designers think that we will be placated with yet another "rewrite" to our core toolset.  Along with many others, I created my bard and chose to become a troubadour because they have the mez ability.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>In the early days, this was a difficult choice because of the dirges having rez and the coveted run speed.  My real life friends and I built a leveling group that would compliment one another, and to my dismay, it was melee heavy.  Along came the live update, and in one sweeping blow, I became useful to casters and able still able to contribute (on a lesser) scale to my normal exp group.  I rolled with the changes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>On down the line, due to another class benefiting from proc changes, the proc system was balanced.  This did reduce my personal DPS significantly, but I could still see benefit grouped with casters on raids.  Although I wasn't happy about it, I rolled with the changes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Yet again, I find myself facing another negative change to the class which defines my playstyle.  I won't argue that the illusionists and coercers didn't need some love, because I know that they do.  What I don't understand is this rampant paranoia that a "scout" class with the ability to "lock down" mobs is overpowered.  I've played long enough to know how to push the limits of my class, and anyone that talks about locking down 4 mobs isn't living in reality unless you're talking about charming one and mezzing three.  Again, that's a very unusual situation, and all it takes is one resist, a bad break, or a moronic AoE to turn that situation into a disaster.  On a similar note, I AM a scout class and should be able to DPS.  I can tell you from parsing my DPS, including my procs from others, I don't rank unless I toggle buffs and "force" procs which renders my debuffs useless.  I won't go into my DPS versus Enchanter DPS as it's sad and I have nothing but respect for my brothers and sisters in the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Now I am not going to ask to use poison, modify my DPS,  or abandon your dreams of balance, but consider this: Crushbone (a well-populated server) has 36 level 70 troubadour, 28 level 70 coercers, and 28 level 70 illusionists.  Take into account the fact that I personally know that several of the troubadours are simply boxed buffbots.  What are the odds on being able to have an active crowd controller for a pick-up group with the current system?  With decreased ability you've just eliminated over 1/3 of the available crowd controllers.  Add in the inevitable few people who react poorly and quit the game.  Now, you're probably starting to approach 1/2 of the crowd controllers.  That may or may not be an exaggeration, but I am sure you can see where I am going.  With hundreds of the other classes online at anytime, what harm is there in allowing such a small subset of the population to retain this skillset? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I'll leave you with this thought, and you can feel free to pass it on.  In post after post and quote after quote, you perpetuate the desire for long-term success of the game and the need to alter things in the short-term to accomplish this.  When you have people like myself, who are long-time multi-account subscriber telling you that the changes you are making don't make sense in the short or the long term.  Think about the message this sends.  We are the people who keep the game running because we love the game and we love playing it.  We ARE the long term of the game.  When the vast majority of the bell curve falls a certain way, maybe...just maybe....they might be onto something.  Please consider these actions before imposing them on the Troubadour Class.  And again thank you for posting....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Echo lvl 70 Troubadour Crushbone</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Officer of Disciples of Evil</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>__________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Luca lvl 70 Inquisitor lvl 63 Jeweler Crushbone</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Castille lvl 65 Shadowknight lvl 64 Woodworker Crushbone</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>

[SureShot]

Well written post, Echo.  I think you speak for most of us as to the state of our class.

[Jaimster]

<DIV>Thanks for posting Echo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Very well put... </DIV>

[Xa]

<DIV>Completely redesigning classes years after release.... dumbing down the playability.... Sounds just like SOEs stupid decision to completely revamp and dumb down Star Wars Galaxies. I shut down all my Sony accounts when that happened and only came back to EQ2 a couple months ago at the coaxing of my wife, now I wonder why I did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe it's time to go back to my necro or assassin.</DIV>

[ootpek]

The charm thing still bugs me.  Is anyone actually AT the level of the spell to see how a non-red con examine looks?  Is it still 8 seconds or less?  I know I've seen examine info be way off what is real because I can't use the spell or item cause of level or class.  I suspect (or maybe I hope) this is the case with the info we are seeing about our charm spells.  <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR>The charm thing still bugs me.  Is anyone actually AT the level of the spell to see how a non-red con examine looks?  Is it still 8 seconds or less?  I know I've seen examine info be way off what is real because I can't use the spell or item cause of level or class.  I suspect (or maybe I hope) this is the case with the info we are seeing about our charm spells.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well a level 70 troub on test originally gave the info a while back.  So unfortunately, it seems quite real. Lockeye did mention they were testing things that weren't on test yet so maybe they are rethinking the notion of this spell now that they've pretty much made it useless<p>Message Edited by Jaimster on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[Bassist]

Suggestion:- Give us the Dirge Rez, or change it to an 8 second duration before they go down again.

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR><BR>Suggestion:<BR><BR>- Give us the Dirge Rez, or change it to an 8 second duration before they go down again.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im pretty PO'ed about the nerf Troubs are getting too.  But IMHO it would just perpetuate what is already happeneing.  That being all classes being a wastered down version of each other.  If they are going to give Troubs something why not a save deth spell or something.  Make it raid wide and 10 to 15 seconds.  Brings the target back with 25% health or something like that.

[Sir Blig]

The prob with that is Dirges already have a Rez, and that is why we had CC, I dont hold much hope that what they are thinking of will be anything near what they have taken away

[J]

<DIV>This just in, dirge rez will now only last for 8 seconds. Plans are in the works to nerf their special abilities to match that of the troubadour's special abilities-- an 8 second rez in which the person lives for 8 more seconds then immediately dies again.  Rumor has it that priests were feeling like they were no longer as useful in groups or raids because of the sheer amount of overpowered rezzing taking place from the dirges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm off</DIV>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBW wrote:<BR> <DIV>This just in, dirge rez will now only last for 8 seconds. Plans are in the works to nerf their special abilities to match that of the troubadour's special abilities-- an 8 second rez in which the person lives for 8 more seconds then immediately dies again.  Rumor has it that priests were feeling like they were no longer as useful in groups or raids because of the sheer amount of overpowered rezzing taking place from the dirges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm off</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know it's funny, but it also is not that far from the truth as this is exactly what is happening to troubs.</P> <P>I mean zerkers get an hp regen, so obviously one of ours needs to be nerfed.</P> <P>Guardians get a group defense buff too, either theres or ours has to go.</P> <P>I mean come on, if your saying that classes have to specialise, stop being so hypocritcal and get serious with it. Start handing out nerfs, wait I mean rebalances, to all classes that share anything in common. Wouldnt want any class to step on any other classes toes</P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, <BR>> but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.</P> <P>Thanks for coming by and posting - it's nice to know at least one developer reads the boards. </P> <P>I sure don't understand why troubadours are being nerfed at all. They are the least played of the neutral classes, and played less than all the pure-good classes and most of the pure-evil ones. Surely they need loving, not nerfs.</P> <P>/shrug</P>

[eland]

<P>I'll use a pole-vaulting analogy to illustrate what I think seems to be happening here.</P> <P>Suppose the height of the bar represents the difficulty of CC in a given encounter, and the length of the pole represents the toolset of a given class.  Prior to these changes, enchanters are given a longer pole than troubadours, but troubs are also given a pretty long pole too.  The devs likely look at this and see troubs as being able to clear most bars they encounter in normal gameplay, making the extra clearance from the enchanter's longer pole less relevant.  After all, it doesn't matter how much you clear the bar by, as long as you clear it.</P> <P>With LU 24, they're cutting a foot or two off the enchanter's pole, but the enchanter still has plenty of clearance over the typical bars encountered, so it shouldn't make a huge difference for them.  With troubs, on the other hand, rather than cutting the pole so they can't quite clear some of the higher bars that they encounter like an enchanters can, they've replaced the pole with a hockey stick and said "See what you can do with this."</P> <P>Overall, I do think the control changes are healthy for the game, even if they're highlly unpopular in the short term.  That said, I think the troub changes as they are on test are way overboard.  Cut the pole if you need to, make sure there's enough of a practical difference to excentuate the enchanter's CC advantage, but make sure that troubs remain viable pole-vaulters.  err, crowd controllers.</P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> elandur wrote:<BR> <P>I'll use a pole-vaulting analogy to illustrate what I think seems to be happening here.</P> <P>Suppose the height of the bar represents the difficulty of CC in a given encounter, and the length of the pole represents the toolset of a given class.  Prior to these changes, enchanters are given a longer pole than troubadours, but troubs are also given a pretty long pole too.  The devs likely look at this and see troubs as being able to clear most bars they encounter in normal gameplay, making the extra clearance from the enchanter's longer pole less relevant.  After all, it doesn't matter how much you clear the bar by, as long as you clear it.</P> <P>With LU 24, they're cutting a foot or two off the enchanter's pole, but the enchanter still has plenty of clearance over the typical bars encountered, so it shouldn't make a huge difference for them.  <FONT color=#ff0000>With troubs, on the other hand, rather than cutting the pole so they can't quite clear some of the higher bars that they encounter like an enchanters can, they've replaced the pole with a hockey stick and said "See what you can do with this."</FONT></P> <P>Overall, I do think the control changes are healthy for the game, even if they're highlly unpopular in the short term.  That said, I think the troub changes as they are on test are way overboard.  Cut the pole if you need to, make sure there's enough of a practical difference to excentuate the enchanter's CC advantage, but make sure that troubs remain viable pole-vaulters.  err, crowd controllers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Simply awsome.

[Bassist]

<div></div>I was already being sarcastic when saying to give us rez <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But, really, if we buff/debuff as our primary resposibility, then why do we have 2 buffs which don't upgrade in tier 7?  Opus and Serenade, our haste and reduce agro buffs.Now, I've seen some incorrect information posted, such as the uselessness of resist buffs due to capping.  Capping affects outright resistance only, it does not affect damage taken.  There is a large difference between 7k and 8k in a resistance, such as the 4th trial zone-wide DoT doing 600-700 vs. 400-500.  So, some buffs are growing nicely and have uses.But to have two the same as the previous tier seems strange.  Also, given percentages of testing, recovery time is not included in our lamented Aria line.  This means short-casters do have fewer procs over the same time period as long-casters.  Let alone the fact that there is no auto-attack to make up for the loss in percentage.  Reflection has a low % chance to have a % chance to block (because it doesn't reflect) the next effect.  What the heck is that?So of the buffs we have there are two that don't upgrade properly and two that don't add much.  We have one of the few self-buffs that take a concentration slot.  If anyone has procs on an encounter mezzed encounter we can't debuff with most of our debuffs because they are encounter.  Lets not even go into the surprise we all had when auto-attack turned on automatically after a damage spell and we tried to mezz the creature.  How can we hold creatures and do damage easily if we have to constantly turn off auto-attack?  Of course, after LU24 that will be "creature", but it's even more important at that point since we don't want to sit there doing nothing for 20.5 seconds.  If I turn on auto-attack and forget to turn it back off it's one thing, but to have it turned on for me on a spell is quite another.If we're buffers then make us better than enchanters.  If we're debuffers then make us better than <all>.  We are not a jack-of-all-trades, because we don't have all trades anymore.  Tell us what we are supposed to be by giving us a toolset where we can say "Oh, yeah, ok.  I see what I'm supposed to do now".  We'd prefer it be more exciting than turning on a bunch of buffs and following people around.  I want options, I like options, and I love making choices on-the-fly to save the group.  That's what makes this a game instead of a simulation.<p>Message Edited by Bassist on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[Cuz]

You forgot the buff that ups the casting schools (ordination etc). It's less then useful.

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>You forgot the buff that ups the casting schools (ordination etc). It's less then useful.<hr></blockquote>I disagree, since it reduces fizzles across the board (healers and damage casters) as well as helps hitting yellow and greater mobs.  So, if you're pushing yourselves it's a useful buff.  I certainly don't have it up all of the time, but it does have a use.</div>

[Krooner]

<DIV>What I was referring to is a spell that you could cast on someone when they were STILL alive but ABOUT to die.</DIV> <DIV>Theres a lot of benefit to an art like that.</DIV> <DIV>MT dies.  Buffs drop</DIV> <DIV>Troub saves death - buffs stay up and healers have a chance to get the MT back into the green.</DIV> <DIV>yes I know other classes have something similar, but I would make the Troub one single target/raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not saying anything is gonna make up for the nerfs guys.  Just saying I would like to see something useful for our Troub bretheren</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> You forgot the buff that ups the casting schools (ordination etc). It's less then useful.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree, since it reduces fizzles across the board (healers and damage casters) as well as helps hitting yellow and greater mobs.  So, if you're pushing yourselves it's a useful buff.  I certainly don't have it up all of the time, but it does have a use.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do they really notice a difference? I never ever have mine on. I also don't raid, so...

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> Cut the pole if you need to, make sure there's enough of a <BR>> practical difference to excentuate the enchanter's CC advantage, <BR>> but make sure that troubs remain viable pole-vaulters.  err, <BR>> crowd controllers.</P> <P>I agree that SoE sees it in the way you are describing. The assumption is that enchanters are not popular, because they compete against troubadours for CC in a group. However, there is a SERIOUS issue with this. Troubadours are very unpopular and there are very few troubadours around to complete against enchanters. </P> <P>The reality is that enchanters are losing group spots to DPS, healing, and tanking classes - not troubadours. Nerfing troubadours won't help enchanters.</P><p>Message Edited by mbolme on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>the dove song line is crap, i put it up in caster groups on raids because I dont have anything  better to put up</DIV>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> I want options, I like options, <P>Message Edited by Bassist on <SPAN class=date_text>05-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Would you prefer to harvest the ore or the den? The Ore? Okay, I'll take the den  :smileytongue:<BR></P>

[EvilDM]

<P>Many of us post for the first time in the trub forum, because of this and it shows the great concern and love we feel for the class.<BR>We've chosen a class that most assuredly is NOT the flavor of the month, a class originally intended as a jack-of-all-trades, which indicates that we wanted to be adaptable, flexible and like a swizz armyknife have something for most situations. More and more utensils is falling off!</P> <P>I've lived through the LU 13, relearned and eventually saw combat begin to become fun again. </P> <P>I guess that once again I will roll with the punches, come up on "eight" and hope the bell rings soon... and the coach (Dev's) have some plan for what to do next, or this 2 year+ fight might come to a KO! Give us a hint, coach!</P><p>Message Edited by EvilDM on <span class=date_text>06-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:59 PM</span>

[Stillwate]

<div></div><div></div>Just posting to show my support in this issue. To be honest, I don't have much time to play and so when it comes to all of a Troubadour's possibilities I am not an expert. I've only recently started having fun with my mez and charm- until someone in my group told me about this next LU. I told them- no way! They wouldn't do that to us, I'm finally playing her the right way and groups want me in them again!! So I came here...Sure enough, being nerfed. So here is simply one more voice saying... please... don't...<font color="#ccff99">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">----</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">Myrddhinn wrote:</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font> <div><font color="#ccff99">+1 Mulillla.</font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99">We play the same. Day 1. No Alts. Fun and loyal group. LU13. Raid. CC.</font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99">I just found my alter ego on another server </font><font color="#ccff99"><img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font><font color="#ccff99">. </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99">Thanks for this post</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">----</font><font color="#ccff99"></font></div><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">Make that triplets.  This is me to a T.</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font>Same for me. Ruais is my only char. She's broke, in okay gear but fun to play. With the limited time I have she gets all the loving... from me it seems, and not SOE. I have macros so she sings songs as she buffs, and I try to make her a good fun group addition.Please give us something? What I really don't understand is that the essence of bards is that our music inspires, controls, and affects other chars and npcs. Crowd control for us makes TOTAL sense. Our music lulls them to sleep, or hypnotizes them for a short time,  It FITS our class. Our voices and words influence our enemies. however.. by short I mean its current state. What the devs are doing is so useless that what's the point in ever casting the spell. That isn't short. It is miniscule.So if it is going to be taken down to this level, give us something else that only we can do that Fits Our Class. We are the music makers. We inspire courage, we inspire fear.Make it true.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stillwaters on <span class="date_text">06-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Stillwaters on <span class=date_text>06-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[pist]

I'm not up into my 50's yet, but I was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] looking forward to being able to mez and stuff to actually help a group other than just buffs.  I'm ok with low DPS, I knew that when I signed up.  I'm ok with being a mainly caster buffer, thats why I made a troub and not a dirge.    As I see it now though, we don't have any spells that people in the group or raid will just look at and be like "Now thats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing cool/unique/super useful/etc".  It doesn't need to be like 50% reflected caster damage or something like that, but SOMETHING that when gets used, it gets noticed. Lack of crowd control is <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, so please give us something to offer to groups other than buffs which people largely don't need : <div></div>

[Evolt]

<P></P> <HR> <P>Well the way I see it,</P> <P>I am gonna be a buffbot I just go in my raidgroup do my buffs on and go AFK.</P> <P>Sounds funny if u put it like this.</P> <P>But its not!</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><IMG src="http://www.caterra.net/files/EQ2/marco.jpg"></P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>We're getting a DPS boost - why would you go afk and autofollow?</DIV>

[Jooneau]

What is more, as time goes by, the existence of stat caps and mudflating itemization will gradually squeeze most of our buffs into near uselessness. Ironically, one thing that keeps our buffs relatively useful is when they nerf items by removing +resists or +skills. We're not quite there yet, like the folks playing EQ1 are, but soon enough we'll be.

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>Everyone is going on about this nerf --- which is very very bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the thing is.. even WITHOUT this nerf, troubs STILL needed improving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've made us WORSE.</DIV>

[Trabbart]

<P>I am afraid we are not even getting a dps boost. Our charm gave us a lot of dps while soloing and in some cases while grouping.  So we do a lil more dps in raids who cares? (even 20% xtra dps to low low dps is STILL low low dps) The dps changes may <U>seem</U> nice but they lack any commitment or ingenuity.  <STRONG>Its a pacifier</STRONG>.</P> <P>Taking away a class defining abilty, CC that was THE reason i started a troub and not a dirge way way back and was THE reason i continued playing after LU13 (even though they pretty much pushed us into a niche) is <STRONG>callous</STRONG>, <STRONG>untrustworthy, infuriating and may very well be gamebreaking to me.</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P>Personally i am glad summer is here.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><EM>Btw. Some more nerfs( that didnt show up on radar cos of the Blinding BLIMP):</EM></P> <P><EM>Any spells that are 20 levels lower than you have their resists seriously upped. - Bye bye Lullaby, Bye Bye Adventure pack 1 debuffspell</EM></P> <P><EM>Lores line is nerfed imho. the very, very ,very little dmg we now make the mobs do to themselves is a nerf not an improvement because we lost 37.5 % power sucking which at least had some uses in solo and dueling and PvP.</EM></P> <P><EM>Of course all our stuns and stifles. But we didnt have that many anyway.</EM></P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trabbart wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P><EM></EM></P><EM>Any spells that are 20 levels lower than you have their resists seriously upped. - Bye bye Lullaby, Bye Bye Adventure pack 1 debuffspell</EM> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Please tell me you're not using Lullaby at 70...

[utkCREW]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900 size=2>Scafloc, ur pissin me off.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900 size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900 size=2>I never post on these forums, but I do read.  I have my lvl 70 troubador on autofollow in raids, as I run around with my 70 Inquisitor.  I wanted a troubador because I wanted to be benifical to groups through my buffs.  My buffs, in the high level, even non-raid game, SUCK.  You can give me +200 to STR and AGI group buff, and I'd still be annoyed.  People are buffed out enough through other means....means which do not require a group to waste a dps spot on a troubador.  Sometimes a troubador is a nice lil addition, but mostly I am never NEEDED.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>I didn't sign up for a dps class, but my inquisitor does more DPS.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>I signed up for a class that people would be excited to have in the group.....sure buff-bot mana regen et alins is nice, but had hoped my troub would boost a group to where people go, "wow, I love troubadors!"</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>Other classes do our job better.  Mezzers, healer buffs, Hate.  And if we are on par with another classes ability, its typically noticed that what the other class brings to the table overall, will be better for the group over a troub.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>My main point....stick with ur fellow troubys Scafloc....instead of posting "We're getting a DPS increase"....you should be saying, "its a pacifier, and we shouldn't accept it."  Because thats what it is.  The DPS increase will be negligable. (sp)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>This is alot of rambling, just kinda a spill of all my thoughts that I've had about my poor troub over the past 6 months.  He'll always be on auto-follow in raids, with Alins and Bria up and running.  People in my raid guild get annoyed with me when I bid my dkp on weapons, and "clearly DPS oriented items" because as a troubador why do I need weapons.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2>Sigh, just alot of frustration.  Its crazy to see this class just fall into complete obscurity....flaws ignored so blindly by SOE.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by utkCREW on <SPAN class=date_text>06-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:49 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by utkCREW on <span class=date_text>06-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 PM</span>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div>Everyone is going on about this nerf --- which is very very bad.</div><div>But the thing is.. even WITHOUT this nerf, troubs STILL needed improving.</div><div>You've made us WORSE.</div><hr></blockquote>Bingo.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 AM</span>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2>Since your post mainly applies to raiding, so does my reply.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900 size=2></FONT></P> <HR> I never post on these forums, but I do read.  I have my lvl 70 troubador on autofollow in raids, as I run around with my 70 Inquisitor.  I wanted a troubador because I wanted to be benifical to groups through my buffs.  My buffs, in the high level, even non-raid game, SUCK.  You can give me +200 to STR and AGI group buff, and I'd still be annoyed.  People are buffed out enough through other means....means which do not require a group to waste a dps spot on a troubador.  Sometimes a troubador is a nice lil addition, but mostly I am never NEEDED.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before the proc nerf hit, the class seemed to be perfect and many will agree with me how it felt like the most balanced class in the game.  The proc nerf took away some of our dps, but the changes in the next LU look set to fix it.</P> <P></P> <HR> I didn't sign up for a dps class, but my inquisitor does more DPS. <HR> <P>If this is true, then you suck at playing your troubador.  There's no way any troub that knows what they're doing will be out-dps'd by an inq.  Our DPS was made lower recently, but that is being changed and will hopefully bring it back to where it should be.  And it's not like it was especially low before this happened.  I could hit 700-800 dps on some fights.  Yeah, it's not as good as other scouts or mages - but it shouldn't be.  If I tried hard I could outdps any of the classes in our 'damage tier', even brawlers.  And if someone's just autofollow, they're losing all that extra dps from the raid.  Sure, you might not think it's even worth anything, but on some fights that dps could make all the difference and you're letting your guild down by not playing your class properly.</P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> I signed up for a class that people would be excited to have in the group.....sure buff-bot mana regen et alins is nice, but had hoped my troub would boost a group to where people go, "wow, I love troubadors!" <P>Other classes do our job better.  Mezzers, healer buffs, Hate.  And if we are on par with another classes ability, its typically noticed that what the other class brings to the table overall, will be better for the group over a troub.</P> <HR> <P>Yeah, some classes do better for some buffs.  But the difference is that we can buff LOTS of things at once.  40% hate gain decrease, spell procs, 23-26% haste (it stacks, so it doesn't matter if someone else has it in the group), mana regen, plus we can probably cap out everyone's strength and stamina - maybe other classes can do one of these things better, but we can do ALL of them.  Why wouldn't you want that in your dps group?</P> <P></P> <HR> My main point....stick with ur fellow troubys Scafloc....instead of posting "We're getting a DPS increase"....you should be saying, "its a pacifier, and we shouldn't accept it."  Because thats what it is.  The DPS increase will be negligable. (sp) <HR> <P>I'm sorry, let me try again</P> <P>OMG OMG THE SKY IS FALLING I HATE YOU SOE LOOK WHAT THIS CHANGE MADE ME DO!</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.secondawn.com/images/upload/cancel.jpg"></P> <P>Charm has been changed.  It not a nerf so much as a completely different spell, so please no-one call it useless from the description, because I have tested it and it is not.  Yes, it sucks to have our mez nerfed, but it's happening to everyone.  Troubs are still the only non-enchanter class who can keep a mob permanently mezzed.   Sure, enchanters can do it better - but they're enchanters, they're meant to!  And if you're a raider like you say you were, you rarely use crowd control anyway.</P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9900 size=2> <P></P></FONT> <HR> This is alot of rambling, just kinda a spill of all my thoughts that I've had about my poor troub over the past 6 months.  He'll always be on auto-follow in raids, with Alins and Bria up and running.  People in my raid guild get annoyed with me when I bid my dkp on weapons, and "clearly DPS oriented items" because as a troubador why do I need weapons. <HR> <P>Maybe it's not because you're a troubador but because you're always AF on him and never attack?  Why do you need weapons if you're not swinging them?</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Cygnu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And it's not like it was especially low before this happened.  I could hit 700-800 dps on some fights.  Yeah, it's not as good as other scouts or mages - but it shouldn't be.  If I tried hard I could outdps any of the classes in our 'damage tier', even brawlers.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would love to know if your still getting 700-800 right now? I have 2 T7 fabled weapons and I am still very happy to get anywhere near 450 in most raid situations!</P> <P>if you are still getting these sorts of numbers, how?<BR></P>

[vinterskugge]

No, that's what I was doing before the proc nerf.  Now I do about 550-600 dps.  It's possible to do more with the right AAs though.

[Kraks_Aforty]

I hit 700 - 900 again, but I'm stacked with every proc item possible for a troub from T7, so I'm a bit lucky.  They don't do quite what they should, mind you, but they definitely help.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>I'd love to know how you do that much without the stamina line.  I'm missing the collection earring and the ring from Fitzpitzle, but apart from that my gear is as good as yours and I have everything at master.  What sort of group are you usually in?</DIV>

[Sawp]

<DIV>I love mez nothing better than seeing a tank aggro 2 mobs and mezing and charming and keeping the group from wiping.</DIV> <DIV>But oh well glad I started to kite and stun more a few weeks ago. Just cycle your slow with the mez on the ^^^ named. </DIV> <DIV>My only regret is I dont think I can solo the nest anymore, it was kind of like my X-man training room so close to that last named.</DIV> <DIV>Sony I love my bard but man you make it a multi tasking challenge.</DIV> <DIV>Keep the Faith</DIV> <DIV>JimmyPuff 70 Troubador</DIV>

[Shadoerider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lachlan wrote: <P>Giving Troubs <FONT color=#993366>poison</FONT> would not break the game.  They will still lack the big CA damage and AOE carnage of the Brig/Swash types and the burst damage of Assassins and Rangers.  Procing changes in the previous update already put a big dent in Troub DPS.  There's no good reason not to let Troubs and Dirge's have poison after this patch diminishes Bard playability further.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why not instead of poison they allow us to equip songs that sages can make for us basically they are the same thing as poison but partchment writen songs that enhance our dps like poison does for the other scouts not only would this allow us to do more dps but Sages would get something else to make in the tradeskill aspect.

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>we should have poisons anyway, nothing to do with this nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm looking forward to tommorow actually.. because if i cannot charm a mob tommorow the way I can today, i will quit, and i want a refund for all 5 of my accounts for the last year.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play on Pvp mostly now... basically when i fight anyone else (apart from another troub) I'm dead.</DIV> <DIV>If i have a charmed pet and i fight someone else.. i'll be lucky to win assuming the charm doesn't break. If it does, which it normally does, i'm defo dead.. but its more fun at least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would probaly accept the new nerf IF i could instant recast it when it breaks and it used no mana or concentration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... now that bards are losing their TRAITS... i think rangers should only be able to use their bows once a day (especially in PVP), healers can rez once a day, rogues can't backstab more than once an hour, </DIV> <DIV>its all BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Reptilianboy on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>I'd love to know how you do that much without the stamina line.  I'm missing the collection earring and the ring from Fitzpitzle, but apart from that my gear is as good as yours and I have everything at master.  What sort of group are you usually in?</div><hr></blockquote>Bracelet of Thule too, but the proc doesn't work so great right now.Anyhow, I'm always with Wiz, Conj, Fury, Assassin, and Brigand.  3 separate proc buffs = tons of little damage, and I have the poison line AA, so that's 4 melee procs and 5 casting procs.Not as good as the 900-1200 I used to always do pre-LU23, but not bad at all.</div>

[Sawp]

<P>I have read the threads and agree Trubs have been one of the more over looked classes but I personally have just changed my style of play to suit the change. Charm was nice but now when it come to raids or a group charm rules (even tho I think sony increased the chance for resist recently master 1 allways hit). Unlike taunt when charm hits guess what the angery mob that is beating your healer becomes your loving pet and freely follows you where you can cheap shot him mez and put a bow on him for the tank.</P> <P>I however do think it would be nice to give us more stuns. Ones alot but heck 2 would be great a epic stun would not really make us uber but it would give us a little more value in a raid not to mention help alot with soloing.</P> <P>A little more Dps would be nice it does get a little old working my fingers to the bone trying to hit some decent dps. Personally I think that song barrier should not be damage taken but maybe proc off combat arts or take useless power drains Lore's Euphuistic Romp and Sandra's Bewildering Incursion. (I dont know about you but I've pulled easy trash mobs and only used Lore's. kept the buff on the mob let it use all it power and looked at over 90 percent health and we will not talk about epic's)</P> <P>(Dont get me started about epic's and there limitless power pools.)</P> <P>As far as posion would be pretty much useless if its was a dot. I like my mez and get [Removed for Content] pleanty of times when i debuff with Lore's on some mobs and the unnoticeable health drain breaks the mez.</P> <P>All in all I love my Trub sometimes I will confess at times I just want to quit when i see a ranger or bruser slap a mob that would of taken me 15 minutes to kill or i wear down to 15 percent only to get a resist and a crit. and die  but a well played trub will stand out in a group but you better be prepaired to multi task and keep busy anyone who calls me a buff bot come group with me.</P> <P>JImmypuff noobador</P>

[Bobbiac]

<div></div>bad necro poster! shoo!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bobbiac on <span class=date_text>10-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[Cuz]

Haha this is one of the last threads I was following before I quit. Glad to see someone revived it for my arrival :p