Ideas to improve the troubadour class

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Let's have a thread where we can put our ideas to make this class better and all post our ideas to improve it.  No complaining about nerfs, etc, here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Lore's line should be changed to work kind of like Curse of Insanity.  Instead of losing an extra 75% from the mobs power, why not make it do damage equal to 75% of the power cost used whenever a mob casts a spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't make charm go back to how it was, how about upping the duration (30 seconds-1 minuteish) and giving us full control.  Let us command the pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give the Elis line more damage or a faster casting time.  Now it procs Aria less often, I do more dps over the two second casting time if I just autoattack instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like a few of our combat arts other than Dancing Blade to do melee damage.  It sucks having some mobs being completely immune to everything we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove all power drains and give us some extra damage on Sandras and Dancing Blade to compensate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone else has some ideas, feel free to add them!</DIV>

[Rampagious]

I don't see this ever happening, but make Jester's Cap a group buff rather than just single target.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would own then<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<DIV>make wis aa line worth it, not just the final abilty.</DIV> <DIV>make our agi int self buff group wide with reduced efficiency on rest of group something like 50%, and 100% for self.</DIV> <DIV>make our encounter wide dot hit more often.</DIV> <DIV>let us use poisons.</DIV> <DIV>increase dmg on noble blade.</DIV> <DIV>eli's could use a boost dmg wise too.</DIV> <DIV>add some secondary effects to our dmg spells. like debuffs or short duration buffs.</DIV> <DIV>give us one or two additional concentration slots (we supposed to be the best at buffing).</DIV> <DIV>how about letting run speed buff work in combat too? maybe not the full 34% but how about 20%?.</DIV> <DIV>increase our ranged auto attack dmg, (hey we scouts).</DIV> <DIV>make jester's cap group wide.</DIV> <DIV>increase the size of our mana pools. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats my list, no specific order just all i came up with atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jaimster]

<DIV>How about if we're so caster friendly they change our Freaking STR/STA buff to INT/WIS?? I understand that's a reasonably good buff to put on ourselves but since they just nerfed the holy hell out of our soloability anyhow, what sense does it make to buff casters with STR and STA??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean c'mon... at least make us <EM>really</EM> friendly to casters =)</DIV>

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div>How about if we're so caster friendly they change our Freaking STR/STA buff to INT/WIS?? I understand that's a reasonably good buff to put on ourselves but since they just nerfed the holy hell out of our soloability anyhow, what sense does it make to buff casters with STR and STA??</div> <div> </div> <div>I mean c'mon... at least make us <em>really</em> friendly to casters =)</div><hr></blockquote>Doing that would make us even less useful than we currently are.  Reasons being...wisdom...well - we won't have more than 1 healer in our group which will most likely be near cap anyways, and since 1 wis = like 3 resists, really not worth it.  Intelligence, if you are a caster and you aren't at least REALLY [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing close to cap (raid gear or not) thats pretty sad, like.....REALLY sad.  Also with intelligence, it is not as viable as a stat anymore for other scouts due to the proc changes on melee and people are not procing nearly as much.  So at least if we buff strength, the other melee can switch out their strength gear if they are capped to some other form of stat that will help them more.  Also...its stamina, who the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] doesn't like stamina?  Raxxyl's is a great buff imo and shouldn't be touched.      I believe someone earlier made a suggestion about poisons.  The reason why poisons are so effective for other scouts, is they are flat out meleeing alot more, therefore they proc them a lot more often.  Speaking from experience (apply poison buff) with the amount that we actaully are meleeing the mob since we have such fast recast timers on our spells, it isn't sufficent enough to get enough procs to actaully efficiently up our DPS.  If SoE really wants to not give ANY buff enchaners in game, then fine, we can deal, but at least take all the group, solo, AND raid worthless power drains off and add more damage to the combat arts they correspond with.</div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <DIV>How about if we're so caster friendly they change our Freaking STR/STA buff to INT/WIS?? I understand that's a reasonably good buff to put on ourselves but since they just nerfed the holy hell out of our soloability anyhow, what sense does it make to buff casters with STR and STA??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean c'mon... at least make us <EM>really</EM> friendly to casters =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't want my buffs to only be useful for casters.  I like how my buffs can help everyone right now, and I don't want it so we're stuck in caster groups.  STA helps everyone already anyway.

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

remember taffo's? flanking attack that would haste the troubador for 15 seconds after it landed... that was a really nice ability

[Snublefot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <DIV>How about if we're so caster friendly they change our Freaking STR/STA buff to INT/WIS?? I understand that's a reasonably good buff to put on ourselves but since they just nerfed the holy hell out of our soloability anyhow, what sense does it make to buff casters with STR and STA??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean c'mon... at least make us <EM>really</EM> friendly to casters =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No :p I lub my Str buff. I can cap both int and str outside raid with it :p</P> <UL> <LI>The power damage in some of our spells are as noted not much use the way the game works PvE right now. </LI> <LI>The defence debuff: As OP says, making the mob damage itself when using power would be a nice change here. Convert power usage to whatever % the buff does into damage belonging to the Troub. </LI> <LI>The backstab and swindle essence: Convert the power hit into a second damage hit. Something like Noble Blade works now.</LI></UL> <P>Also as suggested earlier, add a "self" portion to our group buffs. Our group buffs are just that, meant to spread across 5 other players. Thats most likely why the Troubadour struggle when there is fewer people that share the buff. Or goes solo. A secondary troub only proc on Aria for example. Or a self dps mod on the haste spell. Stuff like that could lift the solo/casual troub up to the other scout classes in solo situations.</P> <P>Removing the concentration cost to our self only int/agi buff would also be a nice change.</P> <P>Also a non-AA ability that nudges us into stealth would be nice.</P><p>Message Edited by Snublefot on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 PM</span>

[thorvang]

i thought about what could be done to make the bard class more unique.bards are travelers, telling stories and singing songs and often involved in some pub brawls <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so they've learnt to react quickly to survive.therefor the bard is the only class that has no cast timers at all. all bard spells are instant (like bellow) thus enhancing auto attack damage slightly. (procs need to be adapted though. maybe handle all spells as if they were on a 1.5 cast timer)and secondly, bards sing songs. benefical to all that can hear them. so some bards buffs are AoE (all of them could be overpowered). not only your group can benefit from them but all (raid) that are near you.so in a raid you want to make sure you're always near all raid members. a little more active.

[Trabbart]

<P>I liked the idea that we were a versatile class. I dont want to only be pigeonholed as a buffbot. Mezz and charm are the things that made me choose Troubador. It is therefore very difficult to come up with abilities that i'd like other than CC.</P> <P> </P> <P>So here is a quick brainstorm list:</P> <P>-Make the mob be in an invisable box (like those irritating streetperformers) (call it Outstanding performance, add the emotes) (a root<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>-Maybe a CC ability that makes a mob attack the nearest mob/pc for a while. A blind rage type charm, uncontrolable but xtra dmg for 1 minute, and possible aggrotaker</P> <P>-REAL usuable manadrain tactics back in game.</P> <P>-A diverse range of controllable/summoned pets. (Storybook characters, swarm of rats from hamelen,...)</P> <P>-Illusionary pets that the mob will attack (so we can backstab) , lose aggro</P> <P>-Feign death, (after all we are performers)</P> <P>-Fear (why should that only be dirge)</P> <P>- Severly nerf all other classes buffing abilities or make ours ignore cap (I dont really wish this one, but it seems so unfair that our NEW definition is such a widespread ability)</P> <P> </P> <P>What it really boils down to is. I chose troubador for its cc and dont want a buffing dps-er.</P><p>Message Edited by Trabbart on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 PM</span>

[Raveller]

Eithera) remove the Troubador class from the game completely and allow all current Troubador's to respec to Dirgeorb) merge the Troubador and Dirge classes to create one versatile and functional Bard class<div></div>

[Cynnigig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trabbart wrote:<BR> <P>What it really boils down to is. I chose troubador for its cc and dont want a buffing dps-er.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While that is my own sentiment, here some suggestions:</P> <P>- Swindle Essence: I would like this to give me back a lot more power than it does now. Our debuffs drain a lot of mana in long fights, give us something to counter this. I don't need more damage on this, instead give our real damage spells more damage.</P> <P>- Versatile Buffs: I am almost never in an ideal group and then feel limited by my stat buffs, so switching from STR/STA to INT/WIS is still limited. I would like to have a buff, which can buff 2 stats of my choosing. This could be connected with an AA line. So if I am in a caster group I could buff INT/WIS or INT/STA, in a more melee oriented group STA/AGI. Or what is needed to face the present challenge.</P> <P>- Personal Buff: Remove the concentration slot on this one. A small change, which would give us one more group buff.</P> <P>- Fun spells: Why on earth do we have such crappy fun spells and nothing with music? I have so often cast and recast my buffs to entertain my group with music, while camping a mob. Give us some extended music to play, give us some different dance styles. Do not underestimate how much people like these kinds of things.</P> <P>- Haste: Change our haste buff into a casting time reducing buff and/or power cost reducer.</P>

[Tipa]

In the future you'll be able to change class to Dirge after betraying, but you lose your home city (and have to betray again to return). If SOE wanted to throw a bone to troubs, they could just let us change to dirges without betraying and without having all our songs set to App 1. <div></div>

[thorvang]

i don't want to play a dirge. i've chosen troub over dirge for a reason. just fix us.

[Tipa]

I agree; I want to play the class I picked a year and a half ago for its abilities.But SOE is weakening those abilities and doubtlessly won't back off or even give us something to compensate that would make the class as exciting as it is now. I'm just into my 50s, but I am having more fun with my troub now than I ever have had, so I feel betrayed that it is all going away so that, apparently, we can buff the people in our party even more.But that is nothing that excites me. Dirges have good dps and buff melees, which is arguably more useful in regular grouping than buffing casters (and as a melee class themselves, way more useful personally). Letting us respec to dirges would be a nice thing for them to do, since they are destroying the class we loved.<div></div>

[Tanatz]

I would like to have the ability to mana dump, like necros did in EQ1.<div></div>

[Jooneau]

Boost our damage spells and combat arts so that we do damage comparable to that of the other scouts.That would be a relatively quick and easy fix to Bards that would require little or no imagination on their part. It won't satisfy those of us who played Bards to be Bards, not just to be mental-based DPS, spell-casting Rogues or Predators, but since SOE seems hellbent on breaking their own game (again) with the LU24 control changes, it's the only viable positive option.The alternative is to do nothing but the control changes and screw Troubadours over yet again.

[Sir Blig]

<P>"remove the Troubador class from the game completely and allow all current Troubador's to respec to Dirge"</P> <P> </P> <P>If they do have any thoughts about removing the class I would hope they would allow us to do a change to whatever class we wanted rather than force us into somthing we didnt what.</P>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div></div> <p>If they do have any thoughts about removing the class I would hope they would allow us to do a change to whatever class we wanted rather than force us into somthing we didnt what.</p><hr></blockquote>You mean like how they gave us a choice of whether or not to become a caster buffbot after LU13?My suggestions on how to improve the Troubador class: remove all of our group buffs (should be self only), and we should really only be able to wear cloth armor. Oh, and we shouldn't be able to wield weapons of any kind. My swords and daggers are sharp and pointy -- I might hurt myself! Also, give us the ability to actually debuff our group/raid members by singing off-key.</div>

[Sir Blig]

<DIV>Ahh the recipe for an Anti-Troubador aka Cacofonix</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cloth armor is too good, only non armor clothing permited (it is there to be looked at not used)<BR>No shield or weapons allowed, but we will be given an instrument<BR>All abilities/spells need an instrument equipped.<BR>New Skill given, Music and Poetry, skill starts at -40 and decreases<BR>All songs have negative effects (de-buffs) of varying types affecting anything within range (within earshot the louder the further) <BR>Effects are stronger the closer one gets</DIV> <DIV>Some of the effects: <BR>Fear<BR>Shock/stun<BR>Paralyze<BR>Deaf (can’t cast some spells)<BR>Depending on the level of the Anti-Troubador they can decimate resists, resists reduced to 0 or well into the negatives if standing next too.<BR>Differing tunes/poems decimate different skill, resists, stats etc<BR>Etc<BR>…..<BR>Ultimate Demoralizing ability: Causes those within range to themselves harm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Affects all targets in range including friendly targets.<BR></DIV>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>I'd like to see more bard effects interrupt, particularly all their aoe debuffs.  They should become interrupt machines in pvp (it's not another passive duty, yet it's not dps oriented, and it's similar to cc for people that enjoy that, but it won't step on enchanters' toes either).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[reaper_m]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melmoth1820 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'd like to see more bard effects interrupt, particularly all their aoe debuffs.  They should become interrupt machines in pvp (it's not another passive duty, yet it's not dps oriented, and it's similar to cc for people that enjoy that, but it won't step on enchanters' toes either).</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe chanters wouldn't mind giving up breeze and their haste/dps buffs (or at least nerfed till they're barely useable)? You know, just so they don't step on bards' toes either.

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Nerf Alins so my guild will have no need for me and I can play a different class.</DIV>

[schwantz007]

<DIV>"Nerf Alins so my guild will have no need for me and I can play a different class."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content]. Exactly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aredisil Fayrunner, 70 Alin's Serene Serenade Caster, AB. </DIV>

[Rampagious]

Unfortunately, they already did once <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Trabbart]

<P>Scafloc,</P> <P>You have just broken your own rule of this post<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> "No complaining about nerfs, etc, here."</P> <P>Its a borderline case ofcourse cos its an "ironic" improvement. But i see it as a sign that SOE has really been able to wear down all the optimism and constructiveness we were willing to offer. The ball is in their court lets hope they do something constructive with it.</P>

[Jaimster]

The updated pictures of Reverie, Dancing Blade and Lore's suggest that they *heart perks up with hope* may finally be giving us a little bit back... and they are actually doing it on test and not on live.  I feel like they have quite a ways to go before they can make up for what they took away, and it's not likely to help us a WHOLE lot while solo, but I'm beginning to see a little light at the end of the tunnel =)

[Sanju]

<div></div><div>nm</div><p>Message Edited by Sanju on <span class=date_text>06-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Gollump]

<DIV>i'm a fan of changing the haste buff</DIV> <DIV>lower recast timers, faster cast times, increased spell damage.... i'd even take more haste, honestly... what was it 3% more from the old master to the new one? though i guess 3% still beats the master to master improvement on the hate reducer <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Stillwate]

<div>---I'd like to see more bard effects interrupt, particularly all their aoe debuffs.  They should become interrupt machines in pvp (it's not another passive duty, yet it's not dps oriented, and it's similar to cc for people that enjoy that, but it won't step on enchanters' toes either).</div>Message Edited by Melmoth1820---I like that idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Some for me are:The classic bard wish: How mages have wands, and classes have dolls/items/etc... give us Instruments that up our stats, or cause procs/additional spells/Instruments that we hold in place of weapons could allow our attack songs to last longer or do more damage (So Troubs/Dirges) Could choose to be more Melee DPS (assuming we get more damage) or go full Musical DPS. One or the other (Makes no sense to do both- can't hold a flute/play a harp/mandolin/etc and hold a sword!)That would be a great way to let us be more unique as well. Some troubs would concentrate on weapons, others on mastering their song attacks. I'm not good at details, but along those lines. or let us switch like we do between ranged and melee. I can pack that harp away and whip out my sais!So to condense above : Make instruments like hexdolls, a charm spot. Or a choosable weapon replacement,Another idea I support: Give us Bard Related Fun spells! Disguise as a high elf??? COME on! A nice long musical thing with a tune none of our spells use. FIX rousing tune!We inspire and incite courage, fear and emotions.What if we had a mob inciting spell? Heck, happens at concerts all the time. The fans turning on eachother... So how about a spell where in a desperate situation, the bard casts a song that causes the mobs to get confused and attack eachother. Not a charm/mez. We wouldnt control, and if one mob died from this, the group receives no xp. Just a last ditch effort to get rid of adds, and regroup ourselves while the mobs are fighting eachother?Like... "Chaotic Interlude" or something.Bard casts- all mobs attacking group turn on eachother (none continue attacking anyone in group: including tank) for "x" duration. but roots the bard or something so the group can't leave. You have a few moments to heal/raise/whatever.  any attack on the mob would end the spell. Possible negatives being: Root/large hate on bard tank has to taunt off/stuff like that.---Just random thoughts. I'm not good at game balance. Just trying to think up stuff for our class. Most people have already shared great ideas <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />---Oohh ... how about something like this:Instead of 'sneak' for whole group...A song that when played, creatures within its area of affect are non aggro. A soothing melody type song that so sedates them, they don't care we are moving through. It would auto go away if we attacked anything. drop off the maintained list. no one is invis and has to be near bard.  It makes more sense than a bard making everyone invis... we dont have magic.. we influence. The mobs 'see ' us. they just dont care for a short time. if the spell fails though- hate is stronger on bard and group. The whole 'betrayed' mentality of those bad guys <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I realize for all spells we like, they have to have cons. So maybe hate on bard if spell fails due to failure or someone attacking a mob... or no other buffs til you get where you are going and can cast in a safe spot (like if you have other music palying to help your friends that would upset the mobs, not help subdue them.) I don't know.Good thing I'm not a dev!<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Keep them coming - some of the ideas given in this thread are actually on test server!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please remove all power drains.  You obviously know they're useless because you removed them from Dancing Blade, so why increase the drain on Sandras?  We're draining less power in total than before, please just take it off completely, it doesn't do a thing.  </DIV>

[StarryEyedElf]

Nice thread! /sticky <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<P>I think it would be very cool if </P> <P>a) our Daelis' self buff didn't take concentration slots and /or </P> <P>b) we had a spell (either a line or through AA options) where we could "Borrow" someone else in the group's unused concentration slot.</P> <P>RIght now I have more than one hotkey bar of group buffs, and I rarely use more than a normal configuration of Daelis/Bria's plus 3 others... which are usually Opus, Aria's and either Raxxyls or Quirons.  With the changes to RoR among others, it seems that there will actually be a need for something of the less used group buffs. Being able to steal or borrow someone else's concentration slots would be great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>I have to say one of my favorite things about casting PotM is the eery creepy music it plays... it just sounds so cool.  More music effects that go with the spell (I always sort of expect the mobs to just stop and stare for a few minutes while PoTM plays but they don't ;p)... </P> <P>Some sort of Pied Piper of Hammlyn spell would be cool - where you cast and any mob (within reason of course) within that range will follow you off a cliff (we have safefall) to clear the way - i'm thinking of the Halls of Fate entrance area - with a 15 minute recast or something.</P>

[Rampagious]

If Daelis' didn't take a conc slot it would be nerfed, most likely severely.  They made it a con because previously before it was added you could stack the buffs as they went up and had 3 self buffs playing at once.<div></div>

[Cygnu]

<blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:If Daelis' didn't take a conc slot it would be nerfed, most likely severely.  They made it a con because previously before it was added you could stack the buffs as they went up and had 3 self buffs playing at once.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I find the fact that Daelis' takes a conc slot really lame. No matter whether I am in a group, raid or solo, I always need to have this buff up to cap out my INT, which I find to be necessary to get any decent DPS output. So when working out which buffs to sing, I am always working with 4 conc slots, not 5.The way I see it, after LU13 when they made INT more important to our class, they threw in this buff as a way to get our INT up to respectible values given that most of the chain armour out there didn't provide good INT benefits. It always seems to me that we have this Buff as a makeweight to compensate for our class changes, but as a result we basically lost a conc slot <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Please change this spell so that it doesn't use a conc slot, even if it means nerfing the amout it buffs a little bit.

[thorvang]

i just checked out the DnL bard and read that he's able to break mez and charm effects. would be a nice addition to the eq2 bards. very few mobs charm/mez, but even if it's rare it would be nice to be the only class that's able to "cure" such spells.

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>CygnusX wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:If Daelis' didn't take a conc slot it would be nerfed, most likely severely.  They made it a con because previously before it was added you could stack the buffs as they went up and had 3 self buffs playing at once.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I find the fact that Daelis' takes a conc slot really lame. No matter whether I am in a group, raid or solo, I always need to have this buff up to cap out my INT, which I find to be necessary to get any decent DPS output. So when working out which buffs to sing, I am always working with 4 conc slots, not 5.The way I see it, after LU13 when they made INT more important to our class, they threw in this buff as a way to get our INT up to respectible values given that most of the chain armour out there didn't provide good INT benefits. It always seems to me that we have this Buff as a makeweight to compensate for our class changes, but as a result we basically lost a conc slot <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Please change this spell so that it doesn't use a conc slot, even if it means nerfing the amout it buffs a little bit.<hr></blockquote>I'm sure that if they remove the concentration slot requirement from this buff that they'll also make it a short duration buff with a long recast, which is how it used to be and which I don't think anybody really wants again. No thanks.

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:i just checked out the DnL bard and read that he's able to break mez and charm effects. would be a nice addition to the eq2 bards. very few mobs charm/mez, but even if it's rare it would be nice to be the only class that's able to "cure" such spells.<hr></blockquote>Priests and Mages can already do this with Cure Arcane.

[Snublefot]

<P>While they can cure mezes, they cant cure charms. Anyone thats been in Deathtoll know the pure pain of a charmed MT :p Not that the charm is anywhere near as annoying as the "stuck in combat bug" you get afterwards :p</P> <P>Giving <STRONG>Bards</STRONG> an ability to cure charm would be hot indeed. But that would be raid/group-improvements. </P> <P>Where the Troubadour need love is in the solo department. There is nothing as powerfull as closing down a mob, or rooting it at a distance. The most powerfull defence there is. We lose a lot of staying power with the mez/charm change. Something <STRONG>need </STRONG>to be done to compensate that. The defensive capabilities of the solo troub is in dire need of some love.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The most obvious change that could be added is a <STRONG>self only heal or ward</STRONG>. I doubt any of the healer classes would scream nerf on that. It would also fit very well into the raid role as ranged dps buffers and would let us take some more close range chances while in raids.</FONT></P>

[missing_peace]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>i just checked out the DnL bard and read that he's able to break mez and charm effects. would be a nice addition to the eq2 bards. very few mobs charm/mez, but even if it's rare it would be nice to be the only class that's able to "cure" such spells.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Priests and Mages can already do this with Cure Arcane.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wouldn't it be nice if bards had a true AE (i.e. raid wide) cure though?  And it should just be restricted to mez/stifle and maybe stun effects and not any other arcane effects.  That would certainly be something that no other class has.  Of course it would need to be usuable while mezzed, but it could have a long enough cast time.

[Dizank]

I agree remove the power drain ability from all our skills unless you have it drain more then the power cost of the spell. I like what they have done to dancing blade, other debuffs of some sort would be a great addition to some of our CA's.

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>The Sandras line could probably do with just a straight swap of the power drain for extra damage.  As it is, it does incredibly low damage.</DIV>

[Mishrac]

<P>I love the ability to drain power in that way as I remeber it you just hade to stay alive untill the power where gone from the mob and then it was cake for us to kill it. But that was in the early years of my trub.</P> <P>And now to the point. As it is today it is just a waste of space in the spell description text. You have to increase the power drained to make it work and if you dont please ad some other effect like a temporary DPS Buff or Mitigation Buff in that way we still can use it and it would contribute to our solo abillity and thats what i think is the weakest link in the chain of Trubs.</P> <P>And as someone typed erlier I also like the idé about different effects for the buffs on the Trub and the group.</P> <P>Hmm and last but not least please make the "Fluff spells" make us dance and sing for the group we are after all entertainers.</P> <P>Kind regards</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Emerix]

<DIV>How to improve our class ? Make Swindle essence leech HP again . THen we could solo effectively and it wouldnt up our DPS too much .</DIV>

[missing_peace]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <DIV>How to improve our class ? Make Swindle essence leech HP again . THen we could solo effectively and it wouldnt up our DPS too much .</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, the essence line does take away HP and give back power.</P> <P>What would be nice, though, is an AE version of this that gives power to the entire group.  And I mean true AE, not an encounter attack.</P> <P>Bards should also have AE DPS/Haste burst abilities that can affect an entire raid.  Something like 15s burst with 1m recast.</P> <P>Also need an AE shrill attack.  This needs to be melee range tho.</P> <P>AE stifle?  Yeah, should have that too.</P> <P>BTW, the damage increase on the bow attacks for bards was not enough.  It still does less damage than 1 adamantine arrow.</P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>My arrows hit for over 2k sometimes, there's no way it should do that much.  Remember there's a huge delay on bow shots, so you're not using Guviena's instead of autoattack.</DIV>

[Emerix]

<DIV>tavernx . I meant leech HP as in take HP from mob and give HP to caster . was like that before they fixed it months ago . made soloing fun .</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

It was never like that.  It used to drain power and give us power - the dirges get the lifetap one.  Personally, I'd prefer to get power back rather than HP.

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div>It was never like that.  It used to drain power and give us power - the dirges get the lifetap one.  Personally, I'd prefer to get power back rather than HP.<hr></blockquote>As would I, if it was actaully ever near max the spell states, and or even remotely significant.</div>

[Dimgl]

<DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I'm not a troubadour, but I have played beside one who has levelled a troub 1-60 once on PVE, and now 1-70 on pvp. I am writing this now because I want to save the interest of a friend who is losing interest rapidly in the game because of troubadour changes, and their general lack of effectiveness. Some of the biggest problems I've seen for troubadours in group and solo settings are their reliance on some of their own songs (like dove, aria, and Daeli's) in order to contribute through their own character. Many troubadours will run 2-3 of those songs, even if their group is 4/6ths melee. They have to in order to feel like they're even making worthwhile contributions to the party, because otherwise their DPS is that bad, or they find themselves unable to land debuffs. Without an offensive stance their accuracy is low, without their self-buffs and high skill levels (AD3 or better) they can lose DPS by casting a nuke (Ala Eli's.) Bards should be able to contribute to their group and their own strengths with ease, it should be their forte. As a Berserker I offer my group significant buffs that can arguably compete in many ways to some bard songs, yet they play well off of my own abilities, and allow me to play significantly better as well, without paying nearly as big a price.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>My #1 suggestions for helping troubadours (and dirges to some extent) would be to add stances, and remove the self-buffs such as Daeli's. Every other scout and fighter is allowed to trade defensive and offensive potential without any concentration costs, bards should be no exception.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Possible stats to raise would be as such:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Offense: +Slashing/Piercing/Crushing (+SPC), +Casting Skills (+CS), +Self Aria Proc Chance(+Aria), +INT.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Defense: +Mitigation, +Defense/Parry (+DP), +WIS, Self-Damage-Shield (+Shield)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I don't see any imbalance in giving Troubadours an Offensive Stance like:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+10-15 SPC, +10-15 Casting Skills, +10-15% more Aria Chance, +50 INT. -20 DP.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Defensive Stance like: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+210 Mitigation, +75 WIS, +15D/P, -10-15 SPC, 15% chance when damaged 250-350 damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>That would give you guys a (weaker than most, but more general) offensive stance that would improve DPS by 5-20% at the cost of 10-20% evasion. The defensive stance would increase evasion by 5-15%, mitigation by 3%, resists by 3%, and give a damage shield at the cost of ~10% accuracy, and maybe you could impose a casting penalty to it too if you really wanted.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>If they really wanted to add flavor they could make it so that a stance grants a 5-10% bonus to a song depending on if it is offensive or defensive. As it is right now there isn't enough tactical reasoning behind a bard's behavior, there is a set of songs that is optimal in 99% of situations. For a class that should personify group dynamics, there need to be more compelling -active- utility, even if that means adding abilities that allow temporary 6th songs to play at increased potency for a time, but can't be played/replayed for a while, as a tradeoff, etc. Fighting a boss that uses arcane damage? Lead your group to safety by playing a powered up arcane resist song while in defensive stance. Proactive decisions like these should define bards, and give them chances to be heroic in group play.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Utility is often represented as a toolbox. Bards should be the ones pulling tools from that toolbox, and bringing them to the front. Whether it be a doctor calling for a scalpel (healer needs dps dropped?), a mechanic calling for a ratchet (need some debuffs here?), or an engineer mapping out a bomb strike (look out, the warlock is about to let it all out, cover him with hate song and then power-play aria, or play aria and power-play hate, trade safety for offense or vice versa?) Bards need ways to get the tools to the hands of those people as soon as they need them, ultimately a good bard will be able to guide their group through songs (motivate) and have the abilities and tools ready before they're called for. Bards need a large number of tools to do their own jobs, whether that be soloing, dps, or pure support. The problem is that many abilities are (quite) weak, and you end up with bards running the exact same abilities in the same ways in every fight, which is absolutely no different than something like my Berserker, who always has the exact same buffs, and fights typically similar from fight to fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I hope to one day see you guys given a well rounded and potent toolbox, that you won't be afraid of juggling for full effect, whether it be in solo, small group, or raid situations.</FONT></DIV>

[Mishrac]

<P>Well written Dimglow.</P> <P> </P> <P>I totaly agree with you.</P> <P>Nice to have a other class come in and show us support.</P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimglow wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I don't see any imbalance in giving Troubadours an Offensive Stance like:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+10-15 SPC, +10-15 Casting Skills, +10-15% more Aria Chance, +50 INT. -20 DP.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Defensive Stance like: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+210 Mitigation, +75 WIS, +15D/P, -10-15 SPC, 15% chance when damaged 250-350 damage.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whilst this is a nice idea, it really isn't as effective as it sounds.  +skills don't make a difference, aria hardly goes off anyway, and Daelis already gives enough INT to cap us.</P> <P>They should make Daelis take no concentration, and change the reactive damage to a melee proc so all of us can benefit and not just soloers.</P>

[Emerix]

<DIV>I am very sure it gave HP scafloc . it was a bug they fixed it . After that my grind in splitpaw got harder hehe . It would surely solve the soloing issue . And why make everything good for raiders anyway O.o Anyways . i agree they should make the proc  with dealis a damage proc and not some stuff only soloers can use . I do not agree on making it no conc though . that would be way overpowered . More than 200 int for nothing is too strong IMO . I would prefer the stances .</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>The stances really wouldn't do anything though.  +disruption, +pierce/slash - useless.  I don't think allowing us to have Daelis as well as our normal buffs would be at all overpowering.</DIV>

[Emerix]

<DIV>We wouldnt ahve to chose if we buff ourselves or the group more . And yea that stances there werent that great but a stance like a berserker has i'd love .</DIV>

[Kaelos_]

<div></div>If you're gonna do off/def stances, why not have it affect songs somehow.  Offensive stance/song: increases damage songs(procs, haste, etc) and debuffs by a 30%(maybe?), but decreases defensive buffs like resist songs, +def buff, etc by 30%.  Defensive stance/song: just flip flop the offensive stance/song. If our strength is in our buffs and if we want stances, then those stances should affect our buff songs. Just my opinion. Panthro, 70 Troub, Najena caution: "for raid use only" What's that written on the Troubadour action figure box "FRAGILE" (frah-gee-le), it must be italian.  -gotta love that movie "A Christmas Story" <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaelos_CZ on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[Dimgl]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimglow wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I don't see any imbalance in giving Troubadours an Offensive Stance like:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+10-15 SPC, +10-15 Casting Skills, +10-15% more Aria Chance, +50 INT. -20 DP.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Defensive Stance like: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+210 Mitigation, +75 WIS, +15D/P, -10-15 SPC, 15% chance when damaged 250-350 damage.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whilst this is a nice idea, it really isn't as effective as it sounds.  +skills don't make a difference, aria hardly goes off anyway, and Daelis already gives enough INT to cap us.</P> <P>They should make Daelis take no concentration, and change the reactive damage to a melee proc so all of us can benefit and not just soloers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>+skills make a huge difference. Going from neutral to +10-15 is enough to boost accuracy (physical at the very least) by as much as 10-15%. I know this very well being a class completely reliant on my physical damage, and monitoring my accuracy as I move from D stance, to no stance, to O stance.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>That aside I chatted with my Troubadour friend some more, and he really liked the idea of having "power-play" songs. He enjoys his character most when he is actively using an ability like Precision where he feels like he played a significant role in the immediate outcome of the situation, while at the same time empowering his allies. It also gives him dynamic power over group situations, turning passive buffing into an active role. When Precision goes off he is in the right to tell the group what their best course of action is (cast like mad) because during that time the effect is greatly improved.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Some ideas we came up with: A set of 5-7 or so songs that share timers, 20-30 second duration, 1 minute or 1.5 minute recast that function as buffs on 5-7 primary gameplay facets, physical offense, magical offense, downtime, physical defense, magical defense, healing, or even buffing/debuffing. Yes, some of the names may be terrible, but just bear with them. :smileytongue:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>War Drums: Increase haste and dps by %, or crit chance, or double-attack, etc. (Physical Offensive Song)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Hocus-Pocus Focus (Terrible name, yes :smileyvery-happy: ): Increase casting speed by xx% and spell crit chance by xx%, or spell damage, or lower recast, etc. (Magic Offense Song)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Victory March: When a party member kills an enemy, heal party hp by x, and heal party power by x. Increase in combat movement speed by xx%. (Downtime reducer, this could even function just as a normal Troubadour song IMHO. It could also include small haste/dps/crit/etc buffs.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Ode to the Unyielding: Increase mitigation by xxx, increase defense/parry/deflection by xx. Could also include reactive procs, for damage, heals, or additional defense.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Murmurs of Magic: Increase resists by xxx, spells cast on party have a xx% chance to be "lost in the murmurs" and take no effect.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Guiding Hymnal: Increase heal crit chance by xx%, increase potency of cure spells by xx%, or increase heal amount, and reduce interrupt chances, etc.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Ballad of Ambivalence: Increase the potency of buffs and debuffs by xx%, increase duration by xx%.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Many of these songs could even be keyed to secondary effects of many existing songs. Those effects could be activated by first using a "power-play" ability, and then playing one of the normal songs (this would help keep hotkey bars clean.) For example tying normal haste song to war drums, which would be a stronger offensive boost, but then leaving the haste song unavailable for 1-1.5 minutes, and not allowing another power play for 1-1.5 minutes. STR/STA or +DEF -> physical defense, aria -> magical offense, Selo's -> Victory March, Resists/Reflect -> Magic Defense, Dove -> Hymnal, etc. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>There are lots of effects that could come out of the idea, but I just thought I'd throw this out there to better explain what I had meant. Some of the combinations could be really cool, such as power-playing a magical offense song with precision, or matching up with a berserker using open wounds with an offensive song. Similarly, tough fights may call for additional defense or healing. Are you blazing through a bunch of greens to finish a solo quest or get through a weak section of a dungeon? Victory March and you're keeping a great pace. Trapped in a bad situation and need to CC a little better? Power-play buff/debuff song and maybe you can CC a bit longer, etc.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Sorry for another long post, I doubt there will be another like this. I'm still hoping it all works out for my friend's sake.</FONT><BR></P>

[Emerix]

Very nice idea there Dimglow . I'd actually be happy if they made our nukes as strong as the dirge ones . their shrill does 25 % more Damage than ours . (1000-1800 compared to 800-1500 )

[Mishrac]

<P>A very fun and creative idea from Dimglow. </P> <P> </P> <P>I like the buffs that you use as Skills when it is time to boost some sort of class depending of the situation.</P> <P>:smileyvery-happy: @ dimglow.</P> <P>If this would get in to the game the Trub will be the most fun class to play.</P>

[Gollump]

i must admit i like the idea of the temp buff songs, would give us something to do so we are actively playing our class rather than just being a buff bot. Very nice ideas.

[Ines]

<P>Bard classes should definitly get more runspeed.</P> <P>Theres just no sense that i can have with Harbingers max a runspeed of 43% when every carpet user has 40% too.</P> <P>Dirges and Troubadors should hava a runspeed buff what makes their groups the fastest. Why do we have a runspeed buff if every carpet/horse has the same speed?</P><p>Message Edited by Inessa on <span class=date_text>06-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 AM</span>

[Emerix]

<DIV>runspeed buffs work in dungeons .</DIV>

[Archai]

Hey guys, I just wanna chime in here. I just betrayed my dirge that i was semi-enjoying to a troubador. I am only level 43, but I was left stunned by the emptyness of the class.1) Utility spells: Speed and invis... thats all i noticed so far... Don't dirges get rez, maybe i just whining here.2) Crowd Control: Charm and Mez I hear are pretty useless. Charm for 10 seconds... 45 sec recast? Why even have it? I could see 1 min last time with a 3 minute recast or even the old EQ1 style way of having to keep recasting on the mob every couple seconds. And not being able to mez with any sort of effectiveness until T7 is sucky. 3) Buffing is great but our only trick? dps is subpar and barely any utility, meh.I know these have been said before, but whats the harm in repeating + I'm just a troub-noob anyways. Somone please tell me there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I would hate to have to delete a level 43 charry.<div></div>

[Sanju]

<div>1) Yeah, you're whining. We have Jester's Cap at 65. That could be considered "utility".2) Whining again. We're not enchanters, and Troub CC (at least post 50, after you get mez) is better than a Dirge's. Charm isn't so much CC anymore as it is a 14s DoT.3) Dps is better than a dirge, but yeah could use a little boost. I've been able to get ~800dps on a single target mob (without the STA line and amazingly without an Inquisitor), but it's generally a bit lower.Some of the soloers/non-raiders might be able to elaborate more on our strengths in those areas, but we're very good on raids (as are dirges) because of our buffs (hate reducer, mana regen, spell proc, +resists (if needed), etc.), Jester's Cap, and AA lines (sharded with Dirges, obviously).Not to nitpick, but pretty much all of your complaints against Troubs could also be said for Dirges. Sounds like you just don't like bards.<blockquote><hr>Archaiis wrote:Hey guys, I just wanna chime in here. I just betrayed my dirge that i was semi-enjoying to a troubador. I am only level 43, but I was left stunned by the emptyness of the class.1) Utility spells: Speed and invis... thats all i noticed so far... Don't dirges get rez, maybe i just whining here.2) Crowd Control: Charm and Mez I hear are pretty useless. Charm for 10 seconds... 45 sec recast? Why even have it? I could see 1 min last time with a 3 minute recast or even the old EQ1 style way of having to keep recasting on the mob every couple seconds. And not being able to mez with any sort of effectiveness until T7 is sucky. 3) Buffing is great but our only trick? dps is subpar and barely any utility, meh.I know these have been said before, but whats the harm in repeating + I'm just a troub-noob anyways. Somone please tell me there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I would hate to have to delete a level 43 charry.<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Archai]

Thanks for the reply, but...Jesters Cap, from what i read on the skills page, is a buff not a utility spell. Crowd Control, there is no point in a charm that last 10 seconds (with last upgrade to 14). A dot? First you have to worry about resist, then there is a check for if the pet actually hits the other mob, so that spell has two chances to fail, not to mention the possibility of it wearing off before the 10 or 14 second mark. Why not just cast any of your other attacks for a better chance at causing damage. This spell is extremely situational, borederline useless.  You're right we aren't enchanters , but in every game / incarnation of the D&D ruleset we do have abilities similar (yes even in EQ2). I am just asking to make these abilities useful on a fight to fight basis. Lullaby is decent, 40 second mez with 9 second recast <a href="http://calzweb.com/troubador.html" target=_blank>here</a> .  Can this be recast on multiple mobs? If so, then thats exactly what I talking about. With the addition of a good charm we could do CC pretty well (without stepping on an enchanters foot)It would be sad to be reduced to a buff bot for just raiding. If thats all there is to it, then there is some definite room for change. In my opinion, everything that was cool about playing a bard in EQ1 isn't very prevalent in EQ2 (it is a sequel gents) <div></div>

[Mulilla]

Sorry to bring bad news, but Lullaby isn't like that anymore.  Since LU24 you cant keep 2 mobs mezzed at the same time

[Archai]

Oy. So yeah either a return to our CC roots or a move forward into some sort of class specialization other than just buffing. <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<P>i for one still love my troubador. I always have. I have a conjuror and a fury (my first character on the shelf) both past 50, with Troubador at 70 and she is still my favorite character to play.  I have a baby brigand too who is looking like a lot of fun, but my Troubador will always be my first choice.</P> <P>My experience, you either love being a troubador or you hate it. There isn't much medium ground to stand on.</P> <P>Regarding the charm - I personally use the new charm 100x more than I ever used the old charm. Biggest drawback for me is actually having to kill the mob that attacks you while you're harvesting. It would be awesome if it had a shorter recast time and/or a longer duration but.. I have still found it to be fun and useful... I think it has broken on me ahead of schedule a couple of times only and resisted once or twice.</P> <P>Regarding Lullaby (50) and Reverie (70)... you're not going to miss what you never had in the first place. You will learn to play with these mezzes as they are - still useful except the fact that they resist ALL the time. I can charm more than one mob at a time, but then can't do much else. This was the change that I didn't like. But nowadays, it's more useful to charm a grouped mob, have it kill his buddies (adding extra dps) faster and then the group turns on him at the end than using mezz anyway.</P> <P>My opinions. Not everyone agrees, but just wanted to let you know that if you're willing to mess around and figure out a few ways these changes can work for you, there is a light at the end of the tunnel</P>

[loveybutt]

Dimglow, First off, nice post, good to see people thinkin of us.. But yeah, alot of your suggestions are actually somewhat available in our AA's. Like wisdom line increasing runspeed, casting times, melee/spell/ranged crit chance etc (these are all group wide)..STr line improves our buffs by x%, etc etc... It would be cool and all to have some kind of healing ability, but that's more of a dirge's specialty rather then ours.  <div></div>

[Sanju]

These are the main problems with the Troubador class as I see them:(I am a lvel 70 raiding Troubador with AAs maxed for raids, and excellent gear and spells (Full Nightcord sans bracers, full relic, several sets of very nice jewelry, 4 very nice weaons)).1. Our buffs are lacking in effectiveness.Stat/attribute buffs are underpowered or ineffective.Raxxyl's: Str/Sta buff. This buff is nice at times, but it's so incredibly easy to max stats, that this becomes a nonfactor in the high end. Most of the people who would benefit from the Str portion in my groups are already maxed without it, so the only benefit is additional hp from the Sta portion. Nice to have, but not needed in most situations.<div></div>Opus: Haste buff. Haste is less effective in most cases than a straight dps buff, and it's also quite easy to cap Haste without opus (albiet for generally shorter durations). Like the dps buffs it also only affects autoattack damage, but dps modifiers are more difficult to max.Bria's: Mana regen. This is a good buff to have for any group, but it's also available from dirges, and both enchanter classes. It's a good buff, though, and always up.Alin's: Hate reducer. This is our bread and butter. It's why we're in a raid dps group. It's probably the only reason we're there for the most part. If I ran nothing but Bria's and Alin's in a raid, I doubt my group would notice.Aria and Precision of the Maestro: Caster procs. Good to have when grouped with 2+ mages, and also adds to summoners mage pets. Good buffs most of the time, but ultimately not essential.Arcane/Elemental: Resist buffs. Typically not needed, as it is rare that any particular encounter calls for more than one resist, and that is easily raised to 8k+ with just items and potions.Dove Song/Graceful Avoidance: Skill buffs. These are a joke. Buffing them makes little tangible difference in any situation.If we are meant to be a buffing class, we do a very poor job of it.2. Our personal dps is far below where it should be.We are supposed to be "Tier 3" dps -- comparable to enchanters and the higher dps tanks (Berzerker, Monk, Bruiser). I'm currently parsing between 600-800 on average for a typical raid zone. We should be closer to 800-1000, in my opinion. Our MT Guardian regularly out parses the bards (both troubs and dirges) in a raid. Don't even get me started on Berzerkers. The enchanters are also typically in the 800-1000 dps range -- where we should be.  Hell, our TEMPLAR can often out dps the bards in an encounter (parsing over 1K).3. Our debuffs are marginally effective.Debuffing attributes (STR/AGI, WIS, or Demoralizing Processional) has little to no effect in most cases. Debuffing resists help a bit, but thier usefulness compared to other classes' debuffs is also trivial.We currently do one thing very well, that no other class can do: reduce hate for the entire group (except fighters).Our current buffs which affect stats or skills need to be improved in some way, though. Either raise the stat cap, or add another affect to those buffs to make them worth casting (add a +dps mod or +crit chance, or proc, or something).  Addtionally, bards need a base dps increase, as well as a base CA/spell damage increase, to bring them in line with enchanters and brawlers.

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>If they aren't going to FIX Charm and MEz, i would say we should have FEAR and Rez instead.</DIV>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>If they aren't going to FIX Charm and MEz, i would say we should have FEAR and Rez instead.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I take it you don't like the new charm? ;P  I personally would rather have what we have than fear and Rez. Rez would be handy for raids since we can't use either charm or mez on epic mobs. But otherwise, I have to say I use my charm spell a LOT more frequently than I ever did. So for me, I wouldn't want that trade.

[Sanju]

Bah, why even bother responding to him? He's either a dirge or a dirge wannabe. <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR>Bah, why even bother responding to him? He's either a dirge or a dirge wannabe. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Btw Sanju, absolutely fabulous summary of Troubs a few posts up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ironman2000]

Put our charm song back up to at least 3 minutes with less chance to break

[Calman]

Lots of nice idea's flying through here. The real sad thing is IMO The devs will not be giving Troubs any love EVER and I really do think they believe we are Sorted as a class. Hence no responce anywhere to all the posts from troubs and other classes saying we are an ignored and lacking class (we i can't really say ignored as we still get the nerf bat) But you know what i mean im sure. But theres no harm in wishing and hoping for some nice things to hapen to troubs. Just do.t hold your breath IMO. Good luck all and best wishes... <div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calman wrote:<BR>Lots of nice idea's flying through here. The real sad thing is IMO The devs will not be giving Troubs any love EVER and I really do think they believe we are Sorted as a class.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A lot of the suggestions in this thread have already been implemented and gone live.

[Kajinryu]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Just kind of throwing this out there, in regards to instruments and special timered buffs.  Although this may be a poor substitute for the class having these skills innately, and some of these may be present in our AAs already.Model the instruments after hex dolls (some stats and a /use).  The /use would offer a bonus to songs currently playing or those being played for the duration of the /use ability.  They could be given a short cast time (0.5 seconds) with a small duration (30 seconds) and larger recast (60-90 seconds).  Each tier of instruments could give a % boost, maybe something comparable to the AA lines at rank 4, and stacking so they don't overshadow them.  They would also be bard only usable, the suggestions here apply in particular to the troubadour songs, being that we're discussing troub improvements.Drums: + STR,  boost to STR/STA and DEF songsHorn: + AGI, boost to Haste and AGI/INT songsLute: +STA, boost to Power and Health songs (and Movement? <span>:smileywink: )</span>Flute: +INT, boost to Casting Skills and Spell Proc songsHarp; +WIS, boost to Arcane and Elemental songsThis would have decreased effect in raids, of course, where more abilities are available.  The boost in solo, small group usage could be helpful though.  Some of Dimglow's song suggestions would be neat when tied here also (This is kind of a cross between his and Stillwaters' suggestions).<div></div>Another alternative as well would be to tie a song to each instrument at a low effectiveness (app2 effectiveness perhaps, with the rares being app4 or ad1).  The songs won't stack with themselves, but will play for the duration that the instrument is held.<p>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <span class="date_text">07-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:17 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <span class=date_text>07-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

[Seddo]

.... a new higher level speed buff that does more then 34% so bards with only jboots become faster then the mounts once again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Spiritunico]

<P>As a roleplayer I'm going to go off the map and ask for some fun abilities so we can play music and entertain our friends in the local tavern.</P> <P>The great thing with this request is there are no balance issues with other classes. ^_^</P>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>Spiritunicorn wrote:<div></div> <p>As a roleplayer I'm going to go off the map and ask for some fun abilities so we can play music and entertain our friends in the local tavern.</p> <p>The great thing with this request is there are no balance issues with other classes. ^_^</p><hr></blockquote>I agree.. our fun/fluff spells suck..woo big poofy flashy lights..go troubs..<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seddo wrote:<BR>.... a new higher level speed buff that does more then 34% so bards with only jboots become faster then the mounts once again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>with the current 34% speed buff and the movement speed from aa's (not maxed out, just got it to be able to get the last one of the line) im as fast with or without my carpet, or in other words, every single class can get the same run speed without even buying an expensive mount. just do a quset that takes less than an hour to do and you move at the same speed as my lvl 70 trouby (with run speed buff up + runspeed from aa's). </P> <P>so yes, bards definitly need a massive upgrade to their rusnpeed buff at higher lvls. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[ConvictedPsyco]

<div></div><div></div>I would still love to see a scraping of the dirge/troub classes all together and just have everyone be a bard.  We wouldn't be able to do anything all at once, but the instruments we played would determine what our songs did, drums would mean our buffs would be about what a dirge does now, a lute about what a troub does now and maybe even a harp to do a mix.  That said, I severely doubt that's going to happen, so:Instruments NEED to be implemented, I don't care how they start out, but I hate playing a lute for 2 seconds when I cast a buff and it's gone, even if it's just part of a fun spell, I don't care, please, just put them in.  This would be an amazing fun spell replacement (ours suck, the one was cool before the dance part was removed, but now they both suck), I get people asking me to sing songs all the time (Nail Diamond, Neil Diamond, incase you didn't catch it), but I can't even play an instrument to add a song to to make it look like I'm singing... <span>:smileysad:</span>  I would MUCH prefer that they be useful, as previous suggestions... suggested: x instrument adds y bonus type thing for z amount of time, with a 2z to 3z recast, but a fun spell with an instrument would be a fantastic place to start.Self buff... why does this require a conc. slot?  And the proc on the spell, what's the point?  How often do you really get hit as a troub?  Even when I'm soloing I'm spending most of my time not getting hit (kiting the mob around, or sitting with it mezzed and regening), so make it a melee or spell proc, maybe a short duration debuff on strike or successful hostile spell, doesn't really matter, just something that is a bit more worthwhile.Debuffs/dot: I wanted to love you all night long when you took the conc. slot requirement off of these SOE, but now they're really hardly worth the power... the dot needs to hit more often and for a bit harder, IMO, and I really wish I felt like our debuffs did more.  Most of the time oppressive is the only one I keep up, I'll throw up demoralizing on an orange mob just for good measure, but it's so hard to tell if it's actually doing anything.  Why not have zander's scale?  I understand that this request might be asking a bit much, as this might require a complete revamp of the bloodline spells but, I hate seeing it do so little...Damage - I'll admit, I haven't taken the time to look over all of the dirge spells to see if we make it up somewhere, but why does their big nuke do about 300 more (m1 t7 shrill vs their m1 t7 spell, don't recall the name, but the master dropped on one of our raids, and I was quite put off by what I saw...)?  That was about 1500 vs their 1800 btw.Eli's needs more dmg/shorter casting, adding time to the recast is fine, as long as I can atuo attack or start casting another spell during the time I would have been stuck casting Eli's.Noble Blade: I have seen several complaints about this one, but I'm honestly fine with it, I usually get above 1200 dmg between the two attacks on a raid, not bad for .4 seconds, though I don't know why it was necessary to remove the instant cast.Sandra's - remove the power drain and give us more dmg or something, I have NEVER seen a mob run out of power, no matter how much I've drained it, so what's the point?  Make it like the essence line, where it returns power, or returns health, more damage, it doesn't matter to me one bit, as long as it doesn't drain the mob of their power, that does nothing.CA's overall - I love the ideas behind many of our spells, guviena's, clara's, dancing blade... The short debuffs/stifle/interupt is the type of thing I love to see tacked on to our spells, I feel like my CA's are worth casting, because that caster is going to have 119 int worth of damage, or I'll be able to do a few more damage when I cast shrill following Dancing because of that debuff.  I was very pleased with the changes to Lore's, though I can't say I really ever even see it's affect.  A 75%+ of power used also = damage would seem more appropriate, mobs don't really seem to use power much as it is, so why not up the %?Mez/Charm: Mez = /cry for me, but I can live with it, at least I can more or less keep two under wraps if necessary.  Charm... I hardly ever use, but I think I prefer it as it is now than how it was before.Runspeed: It doesn't really matter to me honestly, but I find it annoying we haven't gotten an upgrade just because there is no reason NOT to give us one... What is so terribly game breaking about giving us extra speed?  For all I care, don't even up the out of combat speed, start adding in combat speed, or increase casting speeds or something.  I find extra in combat run speed completely useless (though I could see its benefits in PVP) but would be happy if it was tacked on to Selo's.  This change would do nearly nothing for troubs really, though it would provide a nice benefit to dirges that aren't in mt groups on raids (the scout dps groups), would make jousting a bit easier.  The in combat speed boost would also help with training a bit.I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread, but I wouldn't mind more conc slots (though removing the conc slot on self buff would help...), I've got a lot of buffs, and would love to use more of them. <b> Almost going down this route... What if, just what if... we could, to a certain extent, twist songs? Follow me here...We have 5 conc slots, we fill those up, then what?  We can do our bard dps, and have jester's and maestro.  What if we could cast a 30 second verison of Quiron's (which would cast instead of the buff after all 5 conc slots filled)?  Maybe even have it do less if necessary, say 60/tick instead of 78 (lvl 58 M1) for 30 seconds, 3 min recast (something to that affect)... Our agro song could just deagro target by x amount, instead of the constant deagro, maybe our resist songs could be a arcane/magic whatever dispell on target, either hostile (on our tank when he gets something put on him and the healer needs to keep him up or just misses it entirely) or beneficial (remove enemy buffs, though I would personally prefer to see the former).  The +Def buff could act like the fighter spells that allow for an additional chance to avoid for x amount of time... You get the idea.This, above all, would be what I would want to see, it would keep me engaged during raids and groups, would make me pay attention and keep me on my toes.  This would make our class, the troubador class EXCITING to play!  Now, this wouldn't take the place of the buffs as we have them now, we would still cast Alin's as a conc slot, and would be a 40% hate reduction, quirons' would still do 78/tick until canceled, and the buffs we have in our conc slots would not be castable as the short duration buffs, just the ones we do not have up in the 5 conc slots provided.</b>Last is as much a question as a suggestion.. Requiem, does anyone ever even use this? The times i have bothered to have it up, I'll see it proc occasionally, but i could never tell if the mobs cast another spell afterwards to actually do damage to themselves.  I would like to see this changed to something... useful?  The dirge spell for example, is amazing, but due to the nature of troubs and their caster buffs, ours isn't so amazing...  What to do with it? I don't know, but something should be done I think.Edit: I bolded the part I really want to be considered.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ConvictedPsyco on <span class="date_text">07-23-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:47 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by ConvictedPsyco on <span class=date_text>07-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 AM</span>

[thorvang]

i just had a sneak peak at what the vanguard bard will be. scrap eq2, i'm moving <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:i just had a sneak peak at what the vanguard bard will be. scrap eq2, i'm moving <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Not to terribly familiar which vanguard, mind givin me a hint where to find that which you speak of?<div></div>

[Bobbiac]

tbh i want to see new spells introduced via instumentsi want a way to equip a drum in my primary that gives a haste of some sort.or a cello like i would equip a 2hander (i would be sacrificing dps, yes) So that i can mez groups (or God forbid triple ups) via auto attacki wand a wind / brass instument in my ranged slot so i can play an upbeat tune to regen my raid (again via autoattack). (heck you can even have it cost "ammo" by having them use reeds)Troubs' weapons are rarely their source of dps, so what is there to take away? yes there would be balancing issues, but aren't there always?<div></div>

[Sawp]

<DIV>Get in a group use a parse then say Aria dosent proc. Yea sure its not 30 percent but ask a wiz or a fury about it.</DIV>

[Kikena]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bobbiac wrote:<BR>tbh i want to see new spells introduced via instuments<BR><BR>i want a way to equip a drum in my primary that gives a haste of some sort.<BR>or a cello like i would equip a 2hander (i would be sacrificing dps, yes) So that i can mez groups (or God forbid triple ups) via auto attack<BR><BR>i wand a wind / brass instument in my ranged slot so i can play an upbeat tune to regen my raid (again via autoattack). (heck you can even have it cost "ammo" by having them use reeds)<BR><BR>Troubs' weapons are rarely their source of dps, so what is there to take away? yes there would be balancing issues, but aren't there always?<BR> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Why not the best of both worlds?</P> <P>Why not have a weapon proc with an instrument named buff?</P> <P>Singing blades, percussion d/w mace, trump batons and such as that sounds nice. If they proc for buff/debuffs and are bard class specific would that be more in-line with what is requested?</P> <P>If this was addressed this way already then I did not notice it so sorry.</P> <P>I view each sub-class as having an ultimate goal; to eliminate mobs. The method to this comes in many forms. If you want an instrument then at least make it a deadly instrument.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div>admittedly, i haven't read all of the messages in the thread, but i just want to jump in here. i like the idea of instruments.they could do anything from increasing stats, making certain songs more potent, counting as a ranged weapon that didn't require ammo but did mental damage instead, have their on spell or ability to cast (like a hex doll or imbued wand), etc. there are a lot of things that you could do with them, and i think that, as bards, we could greatly benefit from having something like that. it would certainly make things a lot more fun if they had some nice effects.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 PM</span>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>loveybutt wrote:<blockquote><hr>Spiritunicorn wrote:<div></div> <p>As a roleplayer I'm going to go off the map and ask for some fun abilities so we can play music and entertain our friends in the local tavern.</p> <p>The great thing with this request is there are no balance issues with other classes. ^_^</p><hr></blockquote>I agree.. our fun/fluff spells suck..woo big poofy flashy lights..go troubs..<div></div><hr></blockquote>i'm reminded of a certain spell from an old dice rolling roleplaying game that caused the target to dance uncontrollably with no saving throw that i once cast on a demon much to his chagrin....</div>

[hahn_ba]

<DIV><STRONG>Harmonize</STRONG> (App1/App2/App3/App4/Ad1/Ad3/M1)</DIV> <DIV>Enables the Bard to focus his voice perfectly into a short burst of flawless music.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting Time - 0.5 sec</DIV> <DIV>Recast Time - 5 minutes</DIV> <DIV>Duration - 45 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Level 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Effects:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Increase spell damage by (100%/110%/120%/125%/150%/175%/200%)</DIV> <DIV>- Applies "Wonderful Melody" to Group</DIV> <DIV>  - Wonderful Melody</DIV> <DIV>     - Increases spell damage of next <STRONG>spell cast</STRONG> by (50%/55%/60%/62.5%/75%/87.5%/100%).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Instrumental Proficiency</STRONG> (App1/App2/App3/App4/Ad1/Ad3/M1)</DIV> <DIV>The bard uses his instruments to bolster the effects of one of his songs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting Time - 1.0 second<BR>Recast Time - 5.0 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Duration - Until Cancelled</DIV> <DIV>Level (20/34/48/62)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Effects:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Increase effectiveness of next buff cast by (25%, 30%, 35%, 40%, 50%, 75%, 100%)</DIV> <DIV>- Only works on spells up to level (29/43/57/71). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ex. If you're casting Aria - the % only would increase, not the damage. If you're getting +20 parry, using this at M1 would give you +40 parry, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to make these work - they have to go in first - before AA's, and I'm sure there's some crazy coding involved. However, it's much like an EQ1 bard... if the bard had the items and abilities, they could amplify the effects of their songs for short periods of time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would this be a good way to improve soloability, group effectiveness, and the overall desirability of troubadors (and bards) on raids? Short "burst" dps when needed, the ability to improve a buff or two to actually mean something... anything else?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by hahn_bard on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 PM</span>

[hahn_ba]

<DIV>Double post - blasted spacebar</DIV><p>Message Edited by hahn_bard on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 PM</span>

[Kikena]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ConvictedPsyco wrote:<BR> <BR>Instruments NEED to be implemented, I don't care how they start out, but I hate playing a lute for 2 seconds when I cast a buff and it's gone, even if it's just part of a fun spell, I don't care, please, just put them in.  This would be an amazing fun spell replacement (ours suck, the one was cool before the dance part was removed, but now they both suck), I get people asking me to sing songs all the time (Nail Diamond, Neil Diamond, incase you didn't catch it), but I can't even play an instrument to add a song to to make it look like I'm singing... <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN>  I would MUCH prefer that they be useful, as previous suggestions... suggested: x instrument adds y bonus type thing for z amount of time, with a 2z to 3z recast, but a fun spell with an instrument would be a fantastic place to start.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think it a nice little distraction when adding the buff but I do not think it would enhance my gameplay or cause me to enjoy playing the Troubador any more myself if were to be a permanent action while a buff was on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I undertand that you like the visuals and I respect that. Maybe a fun spell would be the way to go, but then everyone would need a new fun spell or at least a change to their existing fun (entertainment) spell wouldn't they?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way the motions through combat and buffing are displayed as they are now are quite to my own satisfaction if no one else's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do wish the Mesmerise/Charm ability was not so short as it is now. What a crime to cripple the Bards in such a way. :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My hopes are that the player community will have cause to enjoy the value the Bard class provides, particularly the Troubador sub-class. And, if more tweeking in Buff/Debuffs/DPS is required, that SOE would take that to the coders/developers and see that the appropriate changes are made and implemented after Q&A testing.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Vive le Bard!! Vive le Troubador!!  :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Jordinn]

<P>From another thread but topical here too so posted the section that applies.</P> <P> </P> <P>It was stated earlier, but I'd agree, more situational short term buffs that actually effect things in raids.  Here are a few ideas on things that could be used (in no order and some may be a bit over/under powered, just a few ideas off the top of my head.</P> <P>1)  Replay - This skill allows you to capture a spell or activity for a period of time and replay it.  For example, The tank needs healing, so I target the healer, who is chain healing and hit replay.  The next heal goes off and I cast the same spell, but out of my power pool.  For balance maybe the effect is at 75% but the power cost is full?  Need more DPS?  Replay a wizard nuke or replay debuffs from other classes. </P> <P>2)  Crescendo - A buff that lasts 5 secs, and amplifies effects used by the target.  Again cast ona healer for more healing per cast, or a nuker for more nuking power.  Potentially make it give a 1% bonus in first sec, 3% in next 5% in next and 7% then 10% in the last sec or something like that.</P> <P>3)  Death Metal - This song stuns your target into stillness (including Epics), lasting 15 secs.  It can be refreshed with an increasing chance to resist with each added cast.  When the song ends the bard dies and the target gets a buff of str and DPS.</P> <P>4)  Etude of Repair - This song causes the bard's equipment to be damaged 10% in all slots, but repairs the targets Equipment 10% in all slots.</P> <P>5)  Soaring Serenade - Counteracts throwbacks by gently floating your group in a cushion of air.  10 sec duration.</P> <P>6)  Distraction - Cast on target to prevent social agro from the target.  Failed cast or resist causes agro on target.</P> <P>7)  Adoring fans - This ability summons a crowd of adoring fans who surround the bard and shield them from damage and push the target mob away from the bard (Deagro).  Bard is stunned for 5 secs while fans ask for autographs.  <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0>  Ok this one is more of a joke. </P> <P>I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there too.</P>

[Bobbiac]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jordinn wrote:<div></div>7)  Adoring fans - This ability summons a crowd of adoring fans who surround the bard and shield them from damage and push the target mob away from the bard (Deagro).  Bard is stunned for 5 secs while fans ask for autographs.  <img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">  Ok this one is more of a joke. <p>I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there too.</p><hr></blockquote><img src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/%7Epinskie/spells/Illusory%20Allies.JPG"> << like that?</div><p>Message Edited by Bobbiac on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[loveybutt]

Haha, like we're not already illy wannabes.. <div></div>

[Jordinn]

<P>well actually I was just joking, but heck why not?  Except the allies would be about 50 and they woulds surround the troub not the mob.  Colorful emotes could be added like "can I have your autograph?" and "I LOVE YOU!!!!" followed by a feign death faint of that "fan".  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>(For those challenged by this I'm still joking, I realize the lag effect of 50 new models popping in to say hi)</P> <P>Or how about:</P> <P>Rescued by your agent - A dark elf in a strange suit of silk comes in and distracts the mob(s) with contract talks and small gifts.  The mobs gains a loot item if you kill it, or you can escape while he's distracted (mem wipe).</P> <P>The point is that there are a bunch of options that could be used here if people think about it.  Jokes aside we need those short term buffs that impact things and are by definition situational.  That gives the troub the thing they most miss, the chance to use their brains while playing.</P>

[Winter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>Let's have a thread where we can put our ideas to make this class better and all post our ideas to improve it.  No complaining about nerfs, etc, here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Lore's line should be changed to work kind of like Curse of Insanity.  Instead of losing an extra 75% from the mobs power, why not make it do damage equal to 75% of the power cost used whenever a mob casts a spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't make charm go back to how it was, how about upping the duration (30 seconds-1 minuteish) and giving us full control.  Let us command the pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give the Elis line more damage or a faster casting time.  Now it procs Aria less often, I do more dps over the two second casting time if I just autoattack instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like a few of our combat arts other than Dancing Blade to do melee damage.  It sucks having some mobs being completely immune to everything we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove all power drains and give us some extra damage on Sandras and Dancing Blade to compensate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone else has some ideas, feel free to add them!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0099 size=3>Less dps, more buffing... like a true bard bard. </FONT>

[Sanju]

<div></div>I'm not sure why you quoted the original post, Winter ... especially since many of the issues mentioned in it have already been addressed to some extent.I do disagree about less dps, though, since buffing in it's current state is dependant only on spell quality.========================================== ==============================EDIT:<blockquote><hr>Kikenata wrote:<p>Can you refer me to a list of issues corrected since this post was created? </p><hr></blockquote>Sure.1: Lore's.  While it's still a crappy spell, it no longer drains power, it deals damage whenever a mob casts a spell or uses a CA.2. Charm. We have full control, but I don't remember what charm was like when this was originally posted.3. Eli's. Deals more damage.4. Re: melee CAs and immunities -- they removed immunities from all but a few mobs. Most are just resistant to certain types of damage.5. Power Drains. They removed one, but made the other "better" (drains more power). Also increased damage on a couple CAs.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sanju on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:41 PM</span>

[Kikena]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR>I'm not sure why you quoted the original post, Winter ... especially since many of the issues mentioned in it have already been addressed to some extent.<BR><BR>I do disagree about less dps, though, since buffing in it's current state is dependant only on spell quality.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you refer me to a list of issues corrected since this post was created?</P> <P>I read that most of the issues have been addressed by since I'm new to the Troubador sub-class I'm not aware of most of the issues that exist or used to exist.</P> <P>Any helpful information is greatly appreciated.</P> <P>Since scouts are slated to have more overall dps ability than other classes such as priests or fighters I would agree myself with the assessment that Troubadors probably need more dps than currently exists for the sub-class.</P>

[Kajinryu]

IIRC, this post was started about the time we started seeing the control changes on test.Our dps was given a bit of a boost overall (don't know how much, I was level 21 at the time).  They added the reverse proc on our self buff.  The duration on the charm was doubled from what was being proposed also, I think.<div></div>

[Mishrac]

<DIV>Make Precussion of Stone a bardspell and remove the Magic deffense buff from the trub.</DIV>

[Bobbiac]

i still dont get why the PoC is better if we have a chance to block/reflect a TON more 1 shot kills.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Bobbiac wrote:i still dont get why the PoC is better if we have a chance to block/reflect a TON more 1 shot kills.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Because PoC goes off wayyyyyyyy more than RoR.

[Llewrend]

<DIV>RoR is still a joke, even though it has been fixed. Atleast RoR doesn't break invis everytime it goes off like PoS does <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Mishrac]

<P>I think bye making them both bard skills instead of Dirge / Trub Skills it would bee good for the entire bard comunity.</P> <P>Recim of Reflection and Prucussion of Stone For all!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Kind regards</P>

[Qwestionator]

As far as RoR goes, i would not consider totally garbage if it did not become a stoneskin buff once it procced- wasting it on any kind of damage.  IMO they should make it so it only procs on spells ( like now) and can only reflect spells, not absorb some ridiculously low DoT tick or a auto attack - i have reflected about .... 4 spells with it in my entire career as a bard - and in pvp it would be very helpful if it actually reflected rather than just absorbed some crap damage.  Just my opinion though.<div></div>

[Llewrend]

<DIV>Aye, it <EM>could</EM> be useful if it didn't absorb random amounts of damage. The only time it's ever been useful for me is in Nizara, where it blocked Flameclaw a couple of times.</DIV>

[Xrak]

i know someone has already said this but still maybe if we ssay it enough SOE will go wow that would work. in EQ1 we buffed raids anyone in range. i know this isn't eq1 but if u played it u wouldn't have beef with this. make all our buffs aoe. that would make us alot more useful all together then we could be put in any group and wouldn't have to be the casters little slave. take what they have there and put it here. and give me back my insane run speed. ohh and whats with bard run speed suspending in combat. even if they just make it to where our run speed works in combat ill be happy. give us our speed back or make it work in combat. and Mana drains...why in this game half the mobs don't use power and their power pool is so huge with any number of power drainers by the time its drained it would have been dead 50 times over. if the mobs can't be mana drained and don't use mana anyways why have it in the game at all give us some damage for christ's sake. <div></div>

[Mulilla]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xrak wrote:<BR>i know someone has already said this but still maybe if we ssay it enough SOE will go wow that would work. in EQ1 we buffed raids anyone in range. i know this isn't eq1 but if u played it u wouldn't have beef with this. make all our buffs aoe. that would make us alot more useful all together then we could be put in any group and wouldn't have to be the casters little slave. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Although it sounds nice, it would limit the utility of 2 (or more) troubs on a raid.  Why would you take 2 troubs if you can achieve the same with one? Get another real DPS instead...<BR></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xrak wrote:<BR>wouldn't have to be the casters little slave<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shhhhh dont let Scafloc read that!! :smileyvery-happy:<BR><BR></P>

[FatedByChan]

<DIV>My two cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you all know how you can change your background music by screwing around with your music files and renaming them right? Imagin a fun spell that when activated plays a song of your choosing from your hard drive for the entire party or perhaps, as an AOE? It would prolly take some tinkering around outside of the game to use it, but if anyone has changed their battle music or any other music already then heck, I think it would be cool to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and I wants me 7 minute charm back.</DIV>

[syri]

<DIV>SOe I have read through many a Troubador posting and the vast majority of them are asking for a little more pizzazz for this class since most of anything that made  us truly entertaining is gone.</DIV>

[Xrak]

I haven't seen too many guild rolling with more than 2 bards. One troub and a dirge. and making a bard that useful would make alot more sense cause we play songs are u tring to tell me my raid can't hear them when i standing in the middle of them. Plus most servers have low bard numbers so i would make us alot more useful cause there are so few of us.<div></div>

[FatedByChan]

<P>Agreed. My guild has one 70 troubadour (Me) and one 70 dirge. There is I think two other troubadours in the guild, but they got tired of being a joke a long time ago and quit playing. I think they moved on to something funner than playing a troubadour, like whittling sticks or something.</P> <P>Anywho, I'm expendable...not getting the respect I used to before the major nerfs...I think AOE buffs would be the perfect way to make me wanted in groups and raids again.</P>

[Mishrac]

<DIV>My thoughs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sony has removed alot from us without giving any thing in return.. or they have but I havent realy noticed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So If you remove alot of the things that made us greate like mana draining, Crowd Control and Uber Buffers. Then you have to give something in return.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove all the mana draining features on all spells, increase the Damage or Attackspeed or lower resists or DoT them... as long as it do something thats usefull in the game, and mana draining isnt.... and hasnt been during the last year, you are not verry fast on fixing things that is broken but you are fast to increase content of the game.... hmm fix then extend content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im also going to tell you this again increase the charms durabillity to atleast 30 secs and 30 secs recast if you want us to work for Crowd control. The mezz is ok if you change the charm, this would even be fun to keep the charm up and trying to mezz 2 mobs at the time : ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make all our buffs greater then all others.... thats what we do so why dont we have the best buffs increase the effect or add some cool fluff or an other effedt to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove the RoR and replace it with PoS, make PoS a bard spell just like you made Selos a bard spell back in the days.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade for Selos please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember I dont want to be the best char in the game I want everyone in my group to be, thats the point of beeing a bard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now thats all i can think of atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[FatedByChan]

Well said.

[Qwestionator]

This is one thing i have noticed since a few of the nerfs.  Especially in the Sandra's ------- line  - a quick attack that deals mental damage and drains power.  This small drain in power no longer makes any difference in a fight - it would be much more effective for this to simply interrupt or deal more damage instead, our ability to efficiently drain power is gone so it would be nice the little fragments of power drain we have to be turned into something effective.  Hope this makes sense, im tired as hell =).<div></div>

[Emerix]

<DIV>UHm in duels or pvp the sandras line is awesome .</DIV>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emerix wrote:<div>UHm in duels or pvp the sandras line is awesome .</div><hr></blockquote>We should not be balanced for PvP or duels -- ever! Mana draining in PvE is a pointless waste of time, therefore it needs to be fixed. (By either making mana draining once again a viable strategy in PvE, or by removing it completely from all PvE player abilities.)</div>

[Emerix]

I agree with you but unfortuantely its now a PVP game and thus they have to give us pvp skills . im just happy its not pure power drain . learn to live with what you have .

[Sanju]

Well, no, they don't. They claim to have the ability to adjust PvE and PvP abilities independantly from one another (i.e. on PvE Sandra's could be a 30K "Troub Decapitate", while the same spell on PvP could cast "bunny illusion" on your target). I say they "claim" to have that ability because I don't remember them ever actually using it.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pvp.</DIV>

[FatedByChan]

Im with sanju on that last one, just because there is a pvp setup in EQ2 does not mean we have to have the same skills. The PvE server and the PvP server are two different entities, therefore, it is possible to have two different troubadours in the game, one effective in PvE and one effective in PvP. It would not hinder, but instead reinforce both types of lacking gameplay for the bard brethren.

[Jordinn]

<P>They also "claimed" that they wouldn't let PvP balancing conflict with PvE balance and look what that got us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I agree that I don't give one **** about PvP and the power drain ability needs to be removed in PvE or make draining a viable strategy again.  Simple as that.</P> <P>If PvP Players have issues with Sandra's then they should also complain, but not about who's Sandra's issue is "correct" but rather that the "make it worth for both" approach that is apparently being used is actually not working for either side.</P>

[LordMicta]

Bards as a base class are totally imbalanced with low avoidance and low dps. Not to mention they are supposed to be (by stereotype) decent at crowd control, yet 12 sec's on a charm is saddly weak for pvp. As a matter of fact there are classes at max level capacity that own them, troub's and dirge's alike. I won't give my oppinion on which classes i believe them to be. However with even con you'll find yourself running from other classes on a regular basis in single combat situations. Their dps should be improoved over all along with their avoidance. If in fact by some unrealistic reason this is disaggreed with, Their charm is another ooption it could be altered to have a longer affect but is breakable by your opponent. It's just rediculous to have a 12 sec charm, virtually worthless. If these things aren't changed they will never be a class that can evenly stand against any class in an even match. And isn't that overall the real point here. Making them one of the less sought out solo classes of all. It's a sad thing to know their distant relatives in other brand games are high atop the food chain and soe can't make them useful other than making your friends stronger. I understand the concept of support class but this is rediculous. <div></div>

[Mishrac]

<DIV>/agree</DIV>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>* Add some sort of self component to Jesters Cap when cast on someone else. Extra reason to use the song nonstop.</DIV> <DIV>* Reflection: change the spell to a AE immunity spell, similar to the last choice in AA-strenght. Would be nice to get out of the cookie-cutter Str/Wis choices <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Riktiktiche]

well i do agree with some points earlier posted on this thread, those beeing1 we want instrumenst2 we want music oriented fun spellswell especially the #2 should not be too hard just make the lute casting graph as a until canselled buff or something similar =)and for the actual use of instruments many of the ideas have been good, i personally don't care i just want visible instruments on my bardother that that i can live with my class and be proud i have style =)<div></div>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:Well, no, they don't. They claim to have the ability to adjust PvE and PvP abilities independantly from one another (i.e. on PvE Sandra's could be a 30K "Troub Decapitate", while the same spell on PvP could cast "bunny illusion" on your target). I say they "claim" to have that ability because I don't remember them ever actually using it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I want a troub decapitate type spell, only usable every 15 minutes or whatever, but instead of massive health damage, it does massive power drain damage..not some weak mess it does now (which by the way isnt that great in pvp, 1v1 most classes kill us with more then enough power anyway, would definatly help fighting priests..)  For pvp, would make us much more wanted in groups (very rare i get an invite for pvp outside of guild at lvl 70 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   <--..sad halfling face,  and solo troub pvp isnt always that great)... Might even come in handy for raid type situations, or every day mob bosses etc... Hobs.. daydreaming  the evening away..<div></div>

[Qwestionator]

I know this is kinda off tangent , or just me rambling but i think a power drain over time might be a nice thing - by that i mean a dot that maybe has a 1-2 min cooldown that siphons power to the troubador over 30 seconds or w/e - also would appreciate another snare or a root of some kind - maybe even a short duration instant mez?  For all you non pvpers out there this prolly as no interest to you but when i pvp i am solo more than 95% of the time - i can say that out of all the scouts troubadors are by FAR the weakest when it comes to snaring/rooting - dirges have 2 snares and a root - granted troubadors do get  a stifle but brigands also get snares and roots - I think troubadors need a bit more utility that can be used to keep other classes (mainly brigands) away (or closer depending on  the situation).  I am not sure if this has been discussed on these forums much, but im thinking mainly pvp when i comment on abilities/etc - for those that dont think pvp matters, well w/e its your opinion - but precision of the maestro  is next to useless in a pvp situation, i dont understand why the dirge ability - which is far more deadly in most situation does not give a drawback while the troubador is rooted for 20 seconds, for the pvpers you know that being rooted as a troubador is possibly the absolute worst thing that can happen, i would love to be able to use precision in pvp but its just not in any way viable, i belive this should be looked at and maybe reconsidered as to the drawback.<div></div>

[loveybutt]

Ick, I agree Potm is absolutely useless in pvp (ONLY time i oculd think of using it would be raid vs raid pvp where the enemy isnt coming right after you. Might be enough of a burst in dps to take out some important healers at the beginning,. but tahts if you have more then a couple casters to do dps..most pvp raids ive been in consist of a group or more rangers.....). The dirge's CoB spell is so much better just for the fact you can use it while moving.  Power syphon DoT would be cool I guess, heh would give ya more power when you have to run away <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jk..kinda... would be nice for healers... And yeah our mezz is ok for pvp saved me a couple times when we're both in the red, IF i manage to get the mezz off, and ithen it land and stay for more then a few seconds, its usually enough time to get my, I guess, more dps burst spells up, maybe aoe interupt..hit em hard (by troub standards) and hope its enough...but alot of times, while being decent in pve, the casting time is kind of long in pvp; now, would be REALLY nice if we could cast the mezz on the run...=-)~    <--- drool face... hobs 70 troub nagafen <div></div>

[Qwestionator]

Yeah thats probably the single most frustrating thing for me in pvp right now is not being able to cast mezmerize while moving - honestly our abilities are songs and we can cast most our songs while moving, so why not mez.  In pvp standards it has a rather long casting time and can be interrupted quite easily.  If i am being charged by any kind of scout or fighter and i am waiting for them to come into mez range and im sitting there spamming that key, they have a way to stop me from casting it almost ALL of the time.  It does have its uses but... forcing me to stop for several seconds to mez is very frustrating.<div></div>

[Bobbiac]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pvp.</div><hr></blockquote>aye pvp talk makes this kitty cry!</div>

[Xrak]

i got something change the 650ish power drain and yes thats off a debuffed mob so its like 350 on a undebuffed mob and keep the mana drain but turn it into a manatap. see someone complain with a 350-650 powertap and if u do ur dumb. sure that means we will never run out of power but wat do we really do. debuff and do like 800dps with double attack line. normally im one of last to run out of power so having that extra will not make much diff on dps but our debuffs that tick at like 120ish power a tick won't run us out of long fights. and selos whats with them doing the whole 14lvl upgrades then at 40 whatever the spell is it just stops [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. i don't care if someone that spent 50p on a horse like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is complaining i run circles around him, im a bard i run fast thats the way of life so take ur 50p horse and shove it. i want my run speed back. its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to upgrade it till there and go ohh someone might get mad that a bard can run faster than them. upgrade our spells<div></div>

[Spider]

<P>personaly i would just like to see the charm start at 15 seconds at lower lvls and go up to about 25-30 seconds at the higher lvls then it would be REALY usefull </P> <P>especialy in pvp since its the only charm taht can charm a player AND make them attack there own faction </P> <P>its extreemely usefull but with its extreemly short time (especialy at lower lvls)  its almost impossible to charm them and then target who u want them attack and let them get an attack off </P> <P>but man when u do its gold lol  got one off on a guy 8 lvlvs higher than me and sicked him on a lvl 70 that out out of group healing lol </P>

[Kajinryu]

<div></div><font color="#0000cc">I'd like to see more abilities usable on the run at this point (as a pvp player).  I solo alot, and the power drain on mobs is useful at my level for that, but useless in groups where the dps is much higher.  Increasing the amount in pve would be quite helpful, I currently use it because most mobs I come across that stun or poison use power to do so.  I'm sure going from non-heroic to heroic changes that power pool amount, and it becomes less effective there too.  If they increased the amount, they could triple it in pve (at which point a solo troub could possibly drain a mobs full power pool within 10 seconds) and do half that in pvp.  The lore's ability is still useless for anything other than the def debuff in pve with the health drain, I'd rather they give me the full amount in power drain again.</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">The big problem with having to stay in place with a long cast time to charm in pvp is the interruptability.  The only true way to get it off with minimal chance at interruption is to stifle your target, then charm.  Which is simple when you only have one target, but then what's the point of charming if there's no cliff nearby and your target isn't a scout or brawler?  If it was usable on the run I could snare one, stifle the other and charm away.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <span class=date_text>09-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc>The big problem with having to stay in place with a long cast time to charm in pvp is the interruptability.  The only true way to get it off with minimal chance at interruption is to stifle your target, then charm.  Which is simple when you only have one target, <STRONG>but then what's the point of charming if there's no cliff nearby and your target isn't a scout or brawler?</STRONG>  If it was usable on the run I could snare one, stifle the other and charm away.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:58 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>simple u chamr one and make him attack the other  or even better if there is a high lvl nearby u make them attack the high lvl and get one shotted</P> <P> </P>

[Kajinryu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kajinryu wrote: <div></div><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc"><u><i>Which is simple when you only have one target</i></u>, <b><strong>but then what's the point of charming if there's no cliff nearby and your target isn't a scout or brawler?</strong></b></font> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <span class="date_text">09-10-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:58 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>simple u chamr one and make him attack the other  or even better if there is a high lvl nearby u make them attack the high lvl and get one shotted</p> <hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">But you can't make them attack the another if there's not another one around...  </font><font color="#0000cc"><span>:smileytongue:  On the note of making them attack a much higher level th<font color="#0000cc">ough</font></span></font><font color="#0000cc">, doesn't it still count us as engaging (thus opening us up to attack) as it does in pve?  Are people (I know I really shouldn't be asking this, or have to ask) truely so stupid that they attack a charmed grey within the same faction as they are, as opposed to just waiting up to 14 seconds?</font></div><p>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <span class=date_text>09-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 PM</span>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><U><I>Which is simple when you only have one target</I></U>, <B><STRONG>but then what's the point of charming if there's no cliff nearby and your target isn't a scout or brawler?</STRONG></B></FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:58 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>simple u chamr one and make him attack the other  or even better if there is a high lvl nearby u make them attack the high lvl and get one shotted</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#0000cc>But you can't make them attack the another if there's not another one around...  </FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><SPAN>:smileytongue:  <BR><BR>On the note of making them attack a much higher level th<FONT color=#0000cc>ough</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc>, doesn't it still count us as engaging (thus opening us up to attack) as it does in pve?  Are people (I know I really shouldn't be asking this, or have to ask) truely so stupid that they attack a charmed grey within the same faction as they are, as opposed to just waiting up to 14 seconds?<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes it does but sometimes its just worth it lol  and sometimes u can sick em on the 70 and run like hell lol </P>

[loveybutt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><U><I>Which is simple when you only have one target</I></U>, <B><STRONG>but then what's the point of charming if there's no cliff nearby and your target isn't a scout or brawler?</STRONG></B></FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:58 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>simple u chamr one and make him attack the other  or even better if there is a high lvl nearby u make them attack the high lvl and get one shotted</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#0000cc>But you can't make them attack the another if there's not another one around...  </FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><SPAN>:smileytongue:  <BR><BR>On the note of making them attack a much higher level th<FONT color=#0000cc>ough</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000cc>, doesn't it still count us as engaging (thus opening us up to attack) as it does in pve?  Are people (I know I really shouldn't be asking this, or have to ask) truely so stupid that they attack a charmed grey within the same faction as they are, as opposed to just waiting up to 14 seconds?<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kajinryu on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes it does but sometimes its just worth it lol  and sometimes u can sick em on the 70 and run like hell lol </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At lvl 70, not much use in sicking em at other 70's, chances are the others are tryin to kill you already..So now I just run into raids in bonemire when a cube mob is up, stealth in to get close, pick some random person, cast the charm and hope it sticks, if it does, i turn, select the epic mob, and send em in and run...they die instantly..usually so do I but hey who cares, its fun..everynow n then i can get my evac off in time...

[Qwestionator]

You gotta charm the MT when they have engaged the mob, thats fun to.   <div></div>

[Spider]

<P>if your pvping agains a group or raid just charm teh healer and sick em on the mt </P> <P> </P> <P>that way u tie them both up no heals to the grroup and the tanks fighting off the healer and your free to pwn the rest of them lol </P>

[Bobbiac]

stay on topic please<div></div>

[fiercele]

-  the ability to increase dmg done from spells instead of haste- allow casting of all spells while moving - replace  mighty bellow with an aoe dmg with an interupt- allow selo's to stack with sow- remove powerdrain from Sandra's on pve servers, replace it with a debuff to attack speed- increase charm on pve to 5 min duration with reduced ( 60% reduction to the charmed pets hp/power pool)- replace Requiem with a % ward (ex 15%chance to proc  Requiem ward when non melle dmg has occured wards target for 400 of that type of dmg)- Daelis Frolicing blades should have a % based melle proc to dmg given not taken<div></div>

[Kajinryu]

<div><blockquote><hr>fierceleaf wrote:-  the ability to increase dmg done from spells instead of haste<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">Could you please expand on this?  We have a spell proc buff, a melee haste buff, and a spell haste ability.  I'm not exactly sure what you're proposing.</font><blockquote><hr>- increase charm on pve to 5 min duration with reduced ( 60% reduction to the charmed pets hp/power pool)<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">Forgive some of my ignorance to the pre-LU 24 versions of our CC.  I was but a lowbie troub that had just recieved the first charm when it occured.  Since then, I've found the new version a bit more useful since it does not require conc and gives full control.  My coercer, iirc, has a long duration charm with full control that takes 3 conc slots.  Is something such as a longer charm with full control worth giving up 3 other buffs?</font><blockquote><hr>- replace Requiem with a % ward (ex 15%chance to proc  Requiem ward when non melle dmg has occured wards target for 400 of that type of dmg)<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">This would help when you're hit with DoT's, I think it would have to be a large enough ward to still help negate one of the big hits too.  If I'm understanding correctly also, does this mean that if I'm hit with a cold-based spell, that I would not be protected from a following fire-based spell?</font></div>

[Spider]

<P>the only thing they need to do with the charm is extend the time by a small margin </P> <P>we are not a pet class and the charm is mostly a get out of jail free card </P> <P>it can eliminae an enimy for a brief period of time and even create a temporyary ally  it also works well as an evade </P> <P>your fighting target (pvp or pve) and it winning </P> <P>u charm it </P> <P>u steath and get behind it and as soon as the Short lived chamr runs out boom u get a new chance and taking it down from stealth with all you attacks refreshed</P> <P>a small 5-10 second increase in the charm time  would be all thats nessisary to make it completely viable </P>

[Crimson Dragon]

i agree. the charm is mostly useless as it is now because the duration is just too short to really do anything with.i'm not calling for a 20 minute charm, but 30-45 seconds isn't going to make it an overpowered ability, and it would be useful.<div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crimson Dragon wrote:<BR>i agree. the charm is mostly useless as it is now because the duration is just too short to really do anything with.<BR>i'm not calling for a 20 minute charm, but 30-45 seconds isn't going to make it an overpowered ability, and it would be useful.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>accualy given its nature 30-45 seconds would be EXTREEMELY over powered but i think starting it at 10 seconds and capping at about 20 seconds would be just about perfect

[fiercele]

okay, my idea on charm isnt the best, but extended timer would be useful and we can all agree on that.On the increased dmg to spells, to clarify, berserkers get a spell that increases dmg on combat arts by 10% why cant mages get increased spell dmg 10% 20+% haste is pretty insignificant to take up a conc. Maybe 20+% haste and 10% increase in spell dmg would be suitable.And my idea for requiem is to ward for a specific type of dmg, if you hit for cold then it wards for cold not heat. <div></div>

[Spider]

<P>20% haste is godlike especialy when combined with other lovely haste and dps buffs </P> <P>the reason it doesnt seem as good is that too many people focus on getting fast weapons but eventualy speed will cap and weapon damage is a multiple of min-max  * speed so a sloweer weapon does a LOT more damage then u add in the haste buffs and your attacking at the same speed as the fast weapons but with the damage of the slow ones </P>

[Xrak]

26% haste on master btw and i run it all the time cause i normally have a assassin and brig in my grp for aggro reduct.<div></div>

[Spider]

<DIV>nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rampagious]

<div></div>For those of you discussing PvP in this - a game with a total of what, 7 PvP servers, and 21 PvE servers, should not be balanced, or adding abilities to classes to enhance PvP.  That is just flat out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Asking this will hurt our class more than help it.  I think I saw someone asking for a massive powerdrain?  Awesome idea, totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing worthless.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class=date_text>09-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR> For those of you discussing PvP in this - a game with a total of what, 7 PvP servers, and 21 PvE servers, should not be balanced, or adding abilities to classes to enhance PvP.  That is just flat out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Asking this will hurt our class more than help it.  I think I saw someone asking for a massive powerdrain?  Awesome idea, totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing worthless.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Rampagious on <SPAN class=date_text>09-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if you took the time to READ! you would know that i ahve pointed out things from both a pvp AND a pve perspective   but no you would rather post random i hate pvp gibberish instead <BR>

[Rampagious]

Yes, yes I would<div></div>

[Spider]

<DIV>^ makulit</DIV>

[loveybutt]

<blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div></div>For those of you discussing PvP in this - a game with a total of what, 7 PvP servers, and 21 PvE servers, should not be balanced, or adding abilities to classes to enhance PvP.  That is just flat out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Asking this will hurt our class more than help it.  I think I saw someone asking for a massive powerdrain?  Awesome idea, totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing worthless.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class="date_text">09-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hey guess which server (overall) constantly has the highest population, give ya a hint, its not antonia bayle anymore.. And please before you post this anti-pvp stuff, roll a pvp toon,  just for 2 seconds,any class,  and you'll see how they can balance pvp with pve spells..and as for massive powerdrain being useless; so our nice little power drains we have now are so much better? Those were in before pvp, so apperently soe thought theyd have some kind of use.; and since the live updates, when its obvious our powerdrains are now useless, upping the amount drastically to make a difference makes plenty sense to me.. Maybe they should retitle this thread 'ideas to improve the PVE troubadour class" ....otherwise, us pvp troubs will continue posting ideas... thx Hobs, lvl 70 troub  on nagafen (PVP!)<div></div>

[Rampagious]

Our power drains have been useless since about...say May '05, no one is contesting this.  Prior to then they did have a use.  Apparently SoE didn't like you draining epics like Nagalik to zero power and stopping boulder throw <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Kajinryu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div></div>For those of you discussing PvP in this - a game with a total of what, 7 PvP servers, and 21 PvE servers, should not be balanced, or adding abilities to classes to enhance PvP.  That is just flat out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Asking this will hurt our class more than help it.  I think I saw someone asking for a massive powerdrain?  Awesome idea, totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing worthless.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rampagious on <span class="date_text">09-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">Just out of curiosity, how does adding abilities for pvp reasons hurt the class as a whole?  You think they'll take away something in exchange?  Not likely.  As you pointed out, there's 3 times the amount of pve servers as pvp.  Most of us coming from a pvp server posting on this thread are doing so from both points of view.</font><font color="#0000cc">  I doubt anything is balanced based on a pvp decision, magic mitigations at higher tiers and the prevalance of predators and rogues is proof enough of that.  Perhaps you need to read the thread again for some of this stuff.</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">*snip*</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">If they increased the amount, they could triple it in pve (at which point a solo troub could possibly drain a mobs full power pool within 10 seconds)*snip*My comment quoted here would be a pve point of view.  A suggestion geared to solo play that some bards must go through.  Such a change would cause my trouby to be able to drain an equal level mobs power faster than my illusionist (equal level again).  This would also allow my lower-than-your-average-scout's-dps troub to drain a mobs power faster than she can kill it.  Currently most mobs die before I can use the attack more than twice.</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">Back on topic:</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">Charm has defenitely lost some of it's usefulness due to the time it lasts.  If it gained 2-4 seconds, that would help it reach the 10-20 second duration mark that seems desirable to at least some of us.  Sony could slowly raise the duration to allow for feedback as they mess with it.</font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc"></font><font color="#0000cc">And thanks for the clarification Fierce, I don't have a zerker and didn't know about that ability.  Perhaps they could give it in the form of a non-conc required buff for once.</font><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=261610"><span></span></a><font color="#0000cc">Ninja-pvp comment:  I was wondering who your troub was IspiderI (now that I see you've added it to your sig).  I think I've jumped you a few times but haven't seen you when I'm pvping in a long time.  I'll be ready for your sneaky charming ways if and when I run into you again.</font></div>

[Antipalad]

Give Guviena's some love pretty please, apart from PvP or duels, there is no reason at all to use this combat art. 2 arrows for the damage of one autoattack shot, nuff said.Sandra's could use some love, since again, the powertap is utterly useless for PvE.Lore's got a tiny hp drain on it, but seeing it tick for 32 dmg at t7 master makes me cry.Oh, and remove the conc slot for our self buff, I can see why it's there for other classes and their self buffs, but when we have 12 different buffs requiring a conc slot, throw us a bone please.

[Qwestionator]

To be honest all this i hate pvp - it doesnt matter etc stuff is bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Has anyone seen a 70 troub not get an invite to raid/ kicked from raid because he was "useless" i have never heard of that - raids still take troubadors just like they did before - so how the heck is changing our pve gonna matter unless it increases our soloability - jsut because you dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about pvp doesnt mean there arent some of us here who have spent  a long time making a toon just like you and would like to see it work properly.  No need to be ignorant to us who pvp, as i said - who cares about pve balance if your not getting kicked from raids?  Say some of our debuffs are better - will that make a difference to anything?  Unless they enhance our pve soloability then who gives a crap about pve, just my perspective - flame on.  Anyways - you can balance pvp without disrupting pve , its been done before and it should be done now<div></div>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=261610" target=_blank><SPAN></SPAN></A><BR><FONT color=#0000cc>Ninja-pvp comment:  I was wondering who your troub was IspiderI (now that I see you've added it to your sig).  I think I've jumped you a few times but haven't seen you when I'm pvping in a long time.  I'll be ready for your sneaky charming ways if and when I run into you again.<BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hehe u on vox ? </P> <P> </P> <P>what name and lvl ? </P> <P> </P> <P>yeah yenn (my troub) hasnt been used much lately as im trying to finish gearing out my main (inquis)  but im also gathering stuff to gear yenn out in the low 30's where she will stay for a while till im ready to gear her for the next teir </P><p>Message Edited by lspiderl on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[Kajinryu]

<blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>hehe u on vox ? </p> <p>what name and lvl ? </p> <hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">Current mains are Kanamine, 34 troub (just lost my dread title to Raacs last weekend, but that's a horrid ranting flame for another day) who is primarily used for crafting, harvesting and passing the time in mostly solo pvp.  The other is Zemicech, 32 mystic, who has become my primary pvp toon grouping with Brengotu and Ohsnap while they catch up in level with Kani.  The two alts you'll find me on otherwise are Baov (20 Illi) and Rockholmer (20 Pally).</font><blockquote><hr>lspiderl wrote:<p>yeah yenn (my troub) hasnt been used much lately as im trying to finish gearing out my main (inquis)  but im also gathering stuff to gear yenn out in the low 30's where she will stay for a while till im ready to gear her for the next teir </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000cc">Looking forward to it, my trouby will stay near there for some time to come.  Although Oda in a group seems to be quite the force (which I'd actually like to see at an equal opposing level sometime) my observations of solo tactics tend to be... well, said I wouldn't rant about it.  There's a few I've chased off, and a few that have run me down (out of combat... while sprinting... on a horse... with bria's and a totem... while they're still in stealth...)  The one's that don't remind me of that particular problem are always a good fight.</font><font color="#0000cc"></font>

[Spider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajinryu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote:<BR> <P><BR>hehe u on vox ? </P> <P> </P> <P>what name and lvl ? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#0000cc>Current mains are Kanamine, 34 troub (just lost my dread title to Raacs last weekend, but that's a horrid ranting flame for another day) who is primarily used for crafting, harvesting and passing the time in mostly solo pvp.  The other is Zemicech, 32 mystic, who has become my primary pvp toon grouping with Brengotu and Ohsnap while they catch up in level with Kani.  The two alts you'll find me on otherwise are Baov (20 Illi) and Rockholmer (20 Pally).</FONT><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lspiderl wrote: <P>yeah yenn (my troub) hasnt been used much lately as im trying to finish gearing out my main (inquis)  but im also gathering stuff to gear yenn out in the low 30's where she will stay for a while till im ready to gear her for the next teir </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#0000cc>Looking forward to it, my trouby will stay near there for some time to come.  Although Oda in a group seems to be quite the force (which I'd actually like to see at an equal opposing level sometime) my observations of solo tactics tend to be... well, said I wouldn't rant about it.  There's a few I've chased off, and a few that have run me down (out of combat... while sprinting... on a horse... with bria's and a totem... while they're still in stealth...)  The one's that don't remind me of that particular problem are always a good fight.</FONT><FONT color=#0000cc><BR></FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well odas rather strict in reguards to taht if u catch someone doing it report it to zhouyu or ikuri

[StrummaTune]

<div></div>I've been playing a troubadour for about 2 months now. I rolled a troub to 70, and have greatly excelled in playing one.When I look at troub's, I don't see too many flaws myself, you just have to figure out how to play one. Once you do, you can be parsing 1100-1200 consistently and pretty easily.There are a couple things though...From what I've seen of EoF so far, a lot of things have aoes, alot have aoe dots, DD, etc...I'd definately like to see an upgrade in the wards for the resist buffs, for example, kicking them up a bit, making them regenerate, etc...I'd like to see an upgrade to maybe 50% on the AA debuff that increases dot tick timers.. 25% is just way too little for it's use... (For example: On fights like the Shredder in Freethinker's and/or Cruor Alluvium in DT, this debuff would be really good..say the dot ticks every 2 seconds...or maybe it's 3 who knows... so it kicks up the tick timer to 4.5 seconds instead of 3.7) When you look at it this way, increasing the debuff to 75%, or even 100% wouldn't be too outrageous, which as you can see this just gives your healers more time to get off cures before the next tick pwns ur entire group. The only thing wrong with this upgrade would be the huge decrease on AoEs with 6 second ticks, etc.I'd like to see an upgrade on Lore's Euphuistic Romp, if not with the % of power/mana drained, then at least on the defense debuffer. Many of the newer mobs in EoF parry/riposte/dodge ALOT, and i guess the upgrade would be considered feasible.The next seems really out there, and I hate doing this, but I'm gonna take a little dirge/trouby comparison. Dirges have CoB...which is for less damage yes, and lasts alot less longer than Precision of the Maestro, but come on; why the daze and the root. CoB doesn't daze, root, anything...ugh. Personally, I'm concerned about my DPS. If I use PoM on a single target mob, my DPS might go from 1200 to 700, especially since I'm AA specc'd to increase the duration of PoM. My suggestion is taking off the Daze, and keeping the root. Mobs move, aggro shift, etc, thus screwing you if the mob gets outta melee range, thus this upgrade seems feasible to me and will ultimately not overpower the spell. Since EoF, it's already been nerf'd to a lower crit ratio and a lower damage on the proc.Fourth, make mez affect epic targets at a down-graded duration. Coercers can mez epics for like 13 seconds; give bards 6 or 7. I know it's not a huge update, but could definately save the raid on mobs such as the Seedling Tender in Emerald Halls.Fifth, make haste equal to dirges dps mod...If they can increase dps mod by 31, I think there's no reason why we can't haste for as much. Doesn't make a whole lotta since to me.That's just my 2 cents on troubadors and possible upgrades. I think everything about the class besides that is pretty good, except for I think SOE should just take away trouby charm if they are going to make it as useless as it is. I mean come on, even Dev.'s have to admit at how useless that spell is, 13 second duration at master 1, doesn't work on epics, and it only lasts 13 seconds if ur the luckiest son of a gun alive.Oh, and in response to Eli's Thunderous Hymn, and songs of the sort..Yes I've proven that you can Automelee for more damage than casting the spell, but there are ways to make it work for you. (Ex. weapons with a longer delay, or backing for an autobow while using the hymn, then going back in..) It still might be more profitable to just screw the spell altogether, but I'm not entirely certain, and I haven't played with the hymn that much after the AA's have been added to increase cast time and reuse speed.That's all from me...Strumma Tune70 Troubador of Strike<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>StrummaTune wrote:<div></div>I've been playing a troubadour for about 2 months now. I rolled a troub to 70, and have greatly excelled in playing one.When I look at troub's, I don't see too many flaws myself, you just have to figure out how to play one. Once you do, you can be parsing 1100-1200 consistently and pretty easily.<font color="#ff0000">i have to disagree, you can't push out 1000+ dps if you do what your supposed to do in raids, i.e. buff the 4 mages + the usual druid in your group. we have to drop everything that gives us a benefit in order to buff other efficiently. no haste (so we left with casting), no int self buff (so we left with meleeing),  see the point? either make the int buff group wide (especially as we are only good in caster groups and with increased stats caps we definitly need to be able to buff int for mages).......</font>There are a couple things though...From what I've seen of EoF so far, a lot of things have aoes, alot have aoe dots, DD, etc...I'd definately like to see an upgrade in the wards for the resist buffs, for example, kicking them up a bit, making them regenerate, etc...I'd like to see an upgrade to maybe 50% on the AA debuff that increases dot tick timers.. 25% is just way too little for it's use... (For example: On fights like the Shredder in Freethinker's and/or Cruor Alluvium in DT, this debuff would be really good..say the dot ticks every 2 seconds...or maybe it's 3 who knows... so it kicks up the tick timer to 4.5 seconds instead of 3.7) When you look at it this way, increasing the debuff to 75%, or even 100% wouldn't be too outrageous, which as you can see this just gives your healers more time to get off cures before the next tick pwns ur entire group. The only thing wrong with this upgrade would be the huge decrease on AoEs with 6 second ticks, etc.<font color="#ff0000">resists system is currently flawed to oblivion and back..... have to wait for a fix for that first to judge what we need in terms of resists buffs....</font>I'd like to see an upgrade on Lore's Euphuistic Romp, if not with the % of power/mana drained, then at least on the defense debuffer. Many of the newer mobs in EoF parry/riposte/dodge ALOT, and i guess the upgrade would be considered feasible.<font color="#ff0000">ill expand that a little, upgrade all our debuffs.....</font>The next seems really out there, and I hate doing this, but I'm gonna take a little dirge/trouby comparison. Dirges have CoB...which is for less damage yes, and lasts alot less longer than Precision of the Maestro, but come on; why the daze and the root. CoB doesn't daze, root, anything...ugh. Personally, I'm concerned about my DPS. If I use PoM on a single target mob, my DPS might go from 1200 to 700, especially since I'm AA specc'd to increase the duration of PoM. My suggestion is taking off the Daze, and keeping the root. Mobs move, aggro shift, etc, thus screwing you if the mob gets outta melee range, thus this upgrade seems feasible to me and will ultimately not overpower the spell. Since EoF, it's already been nerf'd to a lower crit ratio and a lower damage on the proc.<font color="#ff0000">once again, trouby's are there to increase the dps of the 4 mages in the group, not their own...  potm needs a massive upgrade dmg wise....if you increase the dps of each mage in the group by only 200 (and trust me, its more) you can drop your own by 799 and still come out as the winner....</font>Fourth, make mez affect epic targets at a down-graded duration. Coercers can mez epics for like 13 seconds; give bards 6 or 7. I know it's not a huge update, but could definately save the raid on mobs such as the Seedling Tender in Emerald Halls.Fifth, make haste equal to dirges dps mod...If they can increase dps mod by 31, I think there's no reason why we can't haste for as much. Doesn't make a whole lotta since to me.<font color="#ff0000">haste is somewhat pointless in raids as we are always in caster groups..... but it comes in handy in groups especially in cobination with deaggro every noob tank can keep aggro.</font>That's just my 2 cents on troubadors and possible upgrades. I think everything about the class besides that is pretty good, except for I think SOE should just take away trouby charm if they are going to make it as useless as it is. I mean come on, even Dev.'s have to admit at how useless that spell is, 13 second duration at master 1, doesn't work on epics, and it only lasts 13 seconds if ur the luckiest son of a gun alive.Oh, and in response to Eli's Thunderous Hymn, and songs of the sort..Yes I've proven that you can Automelee for more damage than casting the spell, but there are ways to make it work for you. (Ex. weapons with a longer delay, or backing for an autobow while using the hymn, then going back in..) It still might be more profitable to just screw the spell altogether, but I'm not entirely certain, and I haven't played with the hymn that much after the AA's have been added to increase cast time and reuse speed.That's all from me...Strumma Tune70 Troubador of Strike<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StrummaTune wrote:<BR> I've been playing a troubadour for about 2 months now. I rolled a troub to 70, and have greatly excelled in playing one.<BR><BR>When I look at troub's, I don't see too many flaws myself, you just have to figure out how to play one. Once you do, you can be parsing 1100-1200 consistently and pretty easily.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>i have to disagree, you can't push out 1000+ dps if you do what your supposed to do in raids, i.e. buff the 4 mages + the usual druid in your group. <BR>we have to drop everything that gives us a benefit in order to buff other efficiently. no haste (so we left with casting), no int self buff (so we left with meleeing),  see the point? either make the int buff group wide (<STRONG>especially as we are only good in caster groups</STRONG> and with increased stats caps we definitly need to be able to buff int for mages).......<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </P> <P>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.<BR></P>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Killerbee3000 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> StrummaTune wrote: <div></div>I've been playing a troubadour for about 2 months now. I rolled a troub to 70, and have greatly excelled in playing one.When I look at troub's, I don't see too many flaws myself, you just have to figure out how to play one. Once you do, you can be parsing 1100-1200 consistently and pretty easily.<font color="#ff0000">i have to disagree, you can't push out 1000+ dps if you do what your supposed to do in raids, i.e. buff the 4 mages + the usual druid in your group. we have to drop everything that gives us a benefit in order to buff other efficiently. no haste (so we left with casting), no int self buff (so we left with meleeing),  see the point? either make the int buff group wide (<strong>especially as we are only good in caster groups</strong> and with increased stats caps we definitly need to be able to buff int for mages).......</font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </p> <p>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.</p><hr></blockquote>ahem? troubadours dont have enough concentration slots to buff both melee and mages period.its one or the other.and if you start mixing them you have to sacrifice either melee or mage buffs.... you cant buff both to the maximum. you can however make another group with another trouby for melees with haste + str+ deaggro and use him as a aggro dump as some aggro transfers are restricted to group.</div>

[Narben Von Nacht]

<div><blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Killerbee3000 wrote: <div>*SNIP*</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </p> <p>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.</p><hr></blockquote>ahem? troubadours dont have enough concentration slots to buff both melee and mages period.its one or the other.and if you start mixing them you have to sacrifice either melee or mage buffs.... you cant buff both to the maximum. you can however make another group with another trouby for melees with haste + str+ deaggro and use him as a aggro dump as some aggro transfers are restricted to group.</div><hr>Alin's, Aria, Opus, Bria's & Raxyll's. That will buff a mixed group fine with 5 concentration slots. Apart from our self buff what else would you bother running anyway?There's a lot of cross class buffs in the game, you're limiting your raid dps if you stick with pure caster or pure melee groups. </blockquote></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>Narben Von Nacht wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Killerbee3000 wrote: <div>*SNIP*</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </p> <p>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.</p><hr></blockquote>ahem? troubadours dont have enough concentration slots to buff both melee and mages period.its one or the other.and if you start mixing them you have to sacrifice either melee or mage buffs.... you cant buff both to the maximum. you can however make another group with another trouby for melees with haste + str+ deaggro and use him as a aggro dump as some aggro transfers are restricted to group.</div><hr>Alin's, Aria, Opus, Bria's & Raxyll's. That will buff a mixed group fine with 5 concentration slots. Apart from our self buff what else would you bother running anyway?There's a lot of cross class buffs in the game, you're limiting your raid dps if you stick with pure caster or pure melee groups. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>dove song, since eof it massively boost's caster dps.</div>

[Malicorp]

<blockquote><hr>Narben Von Nacht wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Killerbee3000 wrote: <div>*SNIP*</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </p> <p>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.</p><hr></blockquote>ahem? troubadours dont have enough concentration slots to buff both melee and mages period.its one or the other.and if you start mixing them you have to sacrifice either melee or mage buffs.... you cant buff both to the maximum. you can however make another group with another trouby for melees with haste + str+ deaggro and use him as a aggro dump as some aggro transfers are restricted to group.</div><hr>Alin's, Aria, Opus, Bria's & Raxyll's. That will buff a mixed group fine with 5 concentration slots. Apart from our self buff what else would you bother running anyway?There's a lot of cross class buffs in the game, you're limiting your raid dps if you stick with pure caster or pure melee groups. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Firstly, there are a number of other classes which simply buff scout DPS better than us. Lots of them. My typical group is Me, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Necro and Conjuror. Both the Conjuror uses his mage pet almost exclusively and the Necro has recently begun to split up the time more evenly between Scout and Mage pets. Now, I still offer an acceptable target for agitate, emberseed, phoenixblade and "the warlock poison proc whose name escapes me atm". Now, replacing any of those casters with a Brig or Assassin or Swash allows them to benefit from our Str and Haste buffs. However, if you think about the other buffs that he's missing.... there's beserker str & beserk, dirge proc/dps, inquis haste/proc/dps. Simply put, its not a matter of what we can and cannot offer another scout, its a matter of not being able to justify depriving a mage of your buffs in order to provide sub-par buffs to a scout.<div></div>

[Cuz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>A few ideas:</SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRONG>Stop Running Around like Idiots</STRONG> (or something more clever as a name)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Mez enemy encounter. Last 10 seconds.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Mez player group.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>        - Except for Troub.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>        - Last 5 seconds, or until the troub cancels, or until the affected player cancels.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Troub stunned for 3 seconds after cast.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Cancels all DoTs.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Interrupts everyone.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Turns off auto attack.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Does not effect Epics blablabla.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><EM>What's the point? Well you've probably had it happen a bunch of times where things aren't going so wonderfully and you know that if only everyone could just stop you could mez and give your group a chance to stabilize right? Well here it is. Now they will stop <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></EM></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRONG>Something to do about Power</STRONG> (I'm really bad at coming up with names...)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Converts in combat power regen from static number to % for 10 ticks.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Recastable after 20 ticks (after the spell expires).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><EM>The Devs would have to figure out what our static amount of power regen would be at app IV vs how much power someone outfitted in treasured loot on average is to get the %.</EM></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRONG>Final Countdown</STRONG> (I just like the song; it's a terrible name for a spell though.)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Next spell crits.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Castable every 45 seconds.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRONG>Encore </STRONG>(Hah! One clever name!)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Allows 1 more conc slot, or next buff doesn't take a conc slot. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- 8 second cast.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- 60 duration.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- 10 second cool down.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>A few more things that are not really spells.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Stances. Possibly a "Songster" stance that would allow you to use...</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Instruments.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>- Add our missing run speed buffs.</SPAN></P>

[Killerbee3000]

dual wield pom-poms for bard's..... nuff said....<div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malicorp wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Narben Von Nacht wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>*SNIP*<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Umm, BS!!!!  Troubs are best in mixed groups.  Our deaggro allows melee dps characters (assassins and swashes in particular) to achieve MASSIVE dps far over what we bring to a mage group.  Also, Mages bring melee buffs in their skill set which need to go somewhere and should only be a troub if there are only 2 other scouts in the group.  Haste, while fairly insignificant in value should be up.  </P> <P>PotM is good in some instances, but I find the added hate is something that most high dps mages are not accustomed to and oftentimes they will pull aggro when it's up.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ahem? <BR><BR>troubadours dont have enough concentration slots to buff both melee and mages period.<BR><BR>its one or the other.<BR><BR>and if you start mixing them you have to sacrifice either melee or mage buffs.... you cant buff both to the maximum. <BR><BR><BR>you can however make another group with another trouby for melees with haste + str+ deaggro and use him as a aggro dump as some aggro transfers are restricted to group.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> <BR>Alin's, Aria, Opus, Bria's & Raxyll's. That will buff a mixed group fine with 5 concentration slots. Apart from our self buff what else would you bother running anyway?<BR><BR>There's a lot of cross class buffs in the game, you're limiting your raid dps if you stick with pure caster or pure melee groups. <BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Firstly, there are a number of other classes which simply buff scout DPS better than us. Lots of them. <BR><BR>My typical group is Me, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Necro and Conjuror. Both the Conjuror uses his mage pet almost exclusively and the Necro has recently begun to split up the time more evenly between Scout and Mage pets. Now, I still offer an acceptable target for agitate, emberseed, phoenixblade and "the warlock poison proc whose name escapes me atm". <BR><BR>Now, replacing any of those casters with a Brig or Assassin or Swash allows them to benefit from our Str and Haste buffs. However, if you think about the other buffs that he's missing.... there's beserker str & beserk, dirge proc/dps, inquis haste/proc/dps. <BR><BR>Simply put, its not a matter of what we can and cannot offer another scout, its a matter of not being able to justify depriving a mage of your buffs in order to provide sub-par buffs to a scout.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Buffing scout dps well and having scouts stay alive is not the same thing.  This group will own as a dps group:  inquisitor, assassin, swashbuckler, troubadour, wizard, warlock.  The assassin and swashy benefit from str, sta, haste, power regen, deaggro and bladedance.  Assassins hate on the inquisitor, swashy's hate on the troubador (if you pull aggro you're a noob).  Phoenixblade on the 3 scouts.  Inquis dps and proc on swashy and assassin.  Wizard and warlock get mana regen, sta, alin's, aria.  There is not a need to boost casting skills as the warlock will do it.  If you want/need to, replace the wizard with a fury for vim/agitate and elemental cures.</P> <P>Conj's and Necros do not need our hate decreasers to stay alive as they share hate with their pets.</P> <P>There is simply too much syncronicity to NOT use mixed groups unless you are not specced for bladedance in which case, caster group ftw.  BTW, assassins and swashies out dps sorcerors MOST of the time regardless of the group mix.  This enhances their dps and the raid benefits.</P>

[Tipa]

I'm going to risk acting noobish and ask how you can consistently get 1K+ dps in a group? My dps is around 400 with some spikes over 500 (in groups; my dps is too low to make the charts in raids). In groups, tier 1 damage classes get 700-1000 dps with spikes above 1K. So if I were to suddenly start doing more damage than the tier 1 damage dealers in the group, well... that's something I would like to do.All my combat arts and buffs are Adept 3 or masters. I am dual wielding Absolution and Dark Linger. I have jewelry which procs str, dps, and haste, am wearing a cloak with 10% more haste and an FBSS for even more. When everything is proced I have nearly 60% haste and +30 dps; group buffs from other people can make that better. Specced for Don't Kill the Messenger with the rest of the points on the round shield side. Troub line specced so far to increase the effect of Bria's.But obviously either my equipment is half as good as most people's, troubs are measuring their dps in groups with the best possible buffs, or the best possible situation (vs large groups of gray caster mobs where reflection and PotM can be used to give us pretty high dps) or I can't play very well. I may not be the best troub in the world (probably pretty far from), but the kind of dps mentioned in this thread is better than ANYONE'S I group with of any class.So, what is the secret to insane tier 1 dps as a troubador?<div></div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tipa wrote:<BR>I'm going to risk acting noobish and ask how you can consistently get 1K+ dps in a group? My dps is around 400 with some spikes over 500 (in groups; my dps is too low to make the charts in raids). In groups, tier 1 damage classes get 700-1000 dps with spikes above 1K. So if I were to suddenly start doing more damage than the tier 1 damage dealers in the group, well... that's something I would like to do.<BR><BR>All my combat arts and buffs are Adept 3 or masters. I am dual wielding Absolution and Dark Linger. I have jewelry which procs str, dps, and haste, am wearing a cloak with 10% more haste and an FBSS for even more. When everything is proced I have nearly 60% haste and +30 dps; group buffs from other people can make that better. Specced for Don't Kill the Messenger with the rest of the points on the round shield side. Troub line specced so far to increase the effect of Bria's.<BR><BR>But obviously either my equipment is half as good as most people's, troubs are measuring their dps in groups with the best possible buffs, or the best possible situation (vs large groups of gray caster mobs where reflection and PotM can be used to give us pretty high dps) or I can't play very well. I may not be the best troub in the world (probably pretty far from), but the kind of dps mentioned in this thread is better than ANYONE'S I group with of any class.<BR><BR>So, what is the secret to insane tier 1 dps as a troubador?<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm with you man... I have no idea where he's coming close to doing that much damage. Not in a million years could I do that and I'm almost fully fabled with all M1/Ad3's... granted I went down the Bladedance line, which does nothing for me personally dps wise, and the DKTM line. LOL I don't even think Angua ever suggested he could consistently do that much dps and he was one of the best...

[Rampagious]

I heard a rumor that Angua is fat IRL, not sure if it is true though...

[Tri]

<div></div>Getting a zone wide 1300 dps does seem to be a bit high, 400 to 800 is where i usually stand but i m not fully fabled ( and there is fabled and FABLED ) I know masters add some love too, but i really do wonder how one can reach 1300 on a regular basis with a troub. PotM does bring my dps down on single mobs, but then again it makes the casters so happy .... edit : i heard most peeps on Eq2 are quite fat <div></div><p>Message Edited by Triag on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 PM</span>

[Tipa]

I've talked with bards in-game and still feel those dps numbers are a little inflated. It seems the secret to better dps is to forget about weapons, increase int to staggering amounts (like 700+) and let loose with the DD and DoT songs.In essence, to become weak wizards.Just seems to me like we should be able to focus on our damage spells for our dps OR our combat arts - INT vs STR/AGI.I hadn't had a chance to parse since I got Absolution in my last post to this thread, but last night I did. My (largely) melee dps (with DD songs when they came ready) was between 400-500 dps the entire night and I am willing to bet that's about as good as it gets for the 95% of troubs who are not bleeding-edge raiders.I used all the moonstones I had harvested to make resist gear instead of INT/WIS/STA gear. I'm going to try to get more and bump my int from about 370-ish with my self buff to about double that and see what it does to my dps. If I can do decent melee and also demolish stuff with DD spells and harsh language, well, that would be pretty slick.<div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

My standard str and int (without daeli's) is 465 & 384.  I typically will parse between 600-900 on raids with spikes above and below depending on encounter.  I do the most damage with my spells, but you cannot avoid melee as pierce is typically 25% of my damage.  On a raid, I often have int at around 500 or more.  I've had less stats in eof as I'm typically looking to buff melee skills (for that 25% melee).

[Cuz]

<DIV>Change our group debuffs to either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) Have 2 versions, one that debuffs the whole group and cost power, the other that debuffs a single targer but doesn't cost any power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) Reduce the power cost substantialy, and have it cost more power for each additional mob affected by the debuffs.</DIV>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tipa wrote:I've talked with bards in-game and still feel those dps numbers are a little inflated. It seems the secret to better dps is to forget about weapons, increase int to staggering amounts (like 700+) and let loose with the DD and DoT songs.<font color="#ff0000">ahem, we have to drop the int buff in raids......but, yes, in general letting loose on spells is the way to go.... </font>In essence, to become weak wizards.Just seems to me like we should be able to focus on our damage spells for our dps OR our combat arts - INT vs STR/AGI.I hadn't had a chance to parse since I got Absolution in my last post to this thread, but last night I did. My (largely) melee dps (with DD songs when they came ready) was between 400-500 dps the entire night and I am willing to bet that's about as good as it gets for the 95% of troubs who are not bleeding-edge raiders.I used all the moonstones I had harvested to make resist gear instead of INT/WIS/STA gear. I'm going to try to get more and bump my int from about 370-ish with my self buff to about double that and see what it does to my dps. If I can do decent melee and also demolish stuff with DD spells and harsh language, well, that would be pretty slick.<div></div><hr></blockquote>the average trouby parses around 500 in raids... (not counting lyceum and hos trash). the point is, that our buffs are almost worthless is groups..... seriously, groups are where troubadours have problems.....for a solo trouby, just get the rright aa's... a decent roundshield and a good one hander, for raids... well, just upgrade your buffs, cast them and your basically done.in groups troubys are unwanted, get a tank, 1-2 healers, fill up with dps and you can take on everything... (except stuff like nizara, but there you need a chanter not a bard).......</div>

[Qwestionator]

Not sure if anyone has been posting pvp stuff here, i dont wanna get owned if i do b ecause its dedicated to raids or whatever but... anyways -Single biggest issue with troub pvp either solo/group/raid w/e - survivability.  We are the only scouts besides dirges without a defensive stance-  we have group buffs that aid but it would honestly be nice if our self buff had some defense/parry on it or something like that, Another idea would be to give troubs like a regenerating group ward for like say... 400/500 - wizards have really good wards from AA and ive been getting jealous lately <span>:smileytongue:</span> fighting them and barely breaking through to their hp before the wards pop up again - RoR is bad in pvp unless its a 1v1 and you have time to set up buffs - it pulls you into combat and frankly sucks for the most part.  Our Alins serene should have a higher % chance of dropping target in pvp - or maybe put a detaunt on mighty bellow? something like that.  Honestly i would be happy with some more avoidance or a regenerating physical ward - how are we supposed to buff a group if we drop so fast?  i die in group pvp alot because... people target me first or second if we have no enchanter because of Crowd controls etc - i die way faster than any other scout - even dirge stone skin makes a sizable difference - i dont think anyone of influence reads these threads or if they did they dont give a crap about troub pvp but... just my opinions <div></div>

[thorvang]

our self int/agi buff actually has been a short time defense buff prior lu13. added like 10 defense and 18 parry. in addition to the defense from swan song and opus it made us near invulnerable against mobs up to level 50 (solo, heroic and epic).with lu13 they not only changed the way how +defense works (rendered useless), they also took away our only self buff for defense.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class=date_text>12-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 PM</span>

[StrummaTune]

Okay, parsing as a trouby isn't that hard. My guild is a scout heavy guild, but despite that fact, I am parsing 800-1k consistently, and it's not that hard. In zones like Lyceum, I could definately parse over 1k on a zonewide. Here's whatcha do...with my group setup...WarlockConjurorNecroAssassinFuryMe <<<<<Kk. First off, you get fire seed, malignant grasp(warlock proc), and assassin apply poison...yay 3 procs...Now your assassin is gonna jack your Agitate, your conjuror and warlock from lack of int buffs are gonna jack your Vim.You're gonna run Haste, Dehate, Mana, STR/STA, 45% proc buff...You're gonna POM most ae encounters, and if you have 30 second PoM, then your gonna PoM even on single targets and parse 800ish... You're also gonna get an acrylia band of strength for DPS mod.. Get low-delay weapons for more procs...I'm using Windrazor and Dirk of Negativety, but I'd replace my Windrazor with a Vampiric Axe of Balance anyday.. I guess you can use a GDOH, I might if I had one, but sometimes that sucks with only 50% haste... So, I recommend lower delay, but that's just me. Proc gear is cool for troubs, too. I see a lot of troubs sporting Fingerbone Manacles, Bone-clasped Girdle, Mystical Orb of the Invoker, and stuff...so that might help too.. DPS mod adornments help alot..lowering the cast time of Eli's helps..lowering the cast time of all your shrills definately helps... Look at it this way..If you can get Eli's down to 1.4 second cast time...You have 2 weapons that have 2.0 and 1.9 delay along with 50% haste which brings those down to a/b 1.2ish or 1.3ish delay..Your dps ring procs a lot...You spam all your ca's eli's, steal essence, shrill, dancing blade, noble blade, sandra's... You throw 3 or 4 jcaps an encounter, and you will still parse in the 900's...on single target mobs. I'm serious...this is exactly what I do, with an effing Windrazor and Dirk... I could get like another mage in my group like a wizard with gift...if we had a wizard...but you gotta work with what ya have.. Also spam things like Lores and ur snare...they will make ur proc buff go off sometimes.. That's what I do...Strumma Tune70 Troubadour<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>StrummaTune wrote:Okay, parsing as a trouby isn't that hard. My guild is a scout heavy guild, but despite that fact, I am parsing 800-1k consistently, and it's not that hard. In zones like Lyceum, I could definately parse over 1k on a zonewide. Here's whatcha do...with my group setup...WarlockConjurorNecroAssassinFuryMe <<<<<Kk. First off, you get fire seed, malignant grasp(warlock proc), and assassin apply poison...yay 3 procs...Now your assassin is gonna jack your Agitate, your conjuror and warlock from lack of int buffs are gonna jack your Vim.You're gonna run Haste, Dehate, Mana, STR/STA, 45% proc buff...You're gonna POM most ae encounters, and if you have 30 second PoM, then your gonna PoM even on single targets and parse 800ish... You're also gonna get an acrylia band of strength for DPS mod.. Get low-delay weapons for more procs...I'm using Windrazor and Dirk of Negativety, but I'd replace my Windrazor with a Vampiric Axe of Balance anyday.. I guess you can use a GDOH, I might if I had one, but sometimes that sucks with only 50% haste... So, I recommend lower delay, but that's just me. Proc gear is cool for troubs, too. I see a lot of troubs sporting Fingerbone Manacles, Bone-clasped Girdle, Mystical Orb of the Invoker, and stuff...so that might help too.. DPS mod adornments help alot..lowering the cast time of Eli's helps..lowering the cast time of all your shrills definately helps... Look at it this way..If you can get Eli's down to 1.4 second cast time...You have 2 weapons that have 2.0 and 1.9 delay along with 50% haste which brings those down to a/b 1.2ish or 1.3ish delay..Your dps ring procs a lot...You spam all your ca's eli's, steal essence, shrill, dancing blade, noble blade, sandra's... You throw 3 or 4 jcaps an encounter, and you will still parse in the 900's...on single target mobs. I'm serious...this is exactly what I do, with an effing Windrazor and Dirk... I could get like another mage in my group like a wizard with gift...if we had a wizard...but you gotta work with what ya have.. Also spam things like Lores and ur snare...they will make ur proc buff go off sometimes.. That's what I do...Strumma Tune70 Troubadour<div></div><hr>thats with a group setup that pushes your dps......who the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is gonna givew a bard a group that caters to him?and even if you manage to get such group.... and even if you ignore the buff needs from the others..... you will still do far less dps than any dps class in without any buffs from others and in slack mode.......</blockquote></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StrummaTune wrote:<BR>Okay, parsing as a trouby isn't that hard. My guild is a scout heavy guild, but despite that fact, I am parsing 800-1k consistently, and it's not that hard. In zones like Lyceum, I could definately parse over 1k on a zonewide. Here's whatcha do...with my group setup...<BR><BR>Warlock<BR>Conjuror<BR>Necro<BR>Assassin<BR>Fury<BR>Me <<<<<<BR><BR>Kk. First off, you get fire seed, malignant grasp(warlock proc), and assassin apply poison...yay 3 procs...<BR><BR>Now your assassin is gonna jack your Agitate, your conjuror and warlock from lack of int buffs are gonna jack your Vim.<BR><BR>You're gonna run Haste, Dehate, Mana, STR/STA, 45% proc buff...<BR><BR>You're gonna POM most ae encounters, and if you have 30 second PoM, then your gonna PoM even on single targets and parse 800ish... You're also gonna get an acrylia band of strength for DPS mod.. <BR><BR>Get low-delay weapons for more procs...I'm using Windrazor and Dirk of Negativety, but I'd replace my Windrazor with a Vampiric Axe of Balance anyday.. I guess you can use a GDOH, I might if I had one, but sometimes that sucks with only 50% haste... So, I recommend lower delay, but that's just me. Proc gear is cool for troubs, too. I see a lot of troubs sporting Fingerbone Manacles, Bone-clasped Girdle, Mystical Orb of the Invoker, and stuff...so that might help too.. <BR><BR>DPS mod adornments help alot..lowering the cast time of Eli's helps..lowering the cast time of all your shrills definately helps... Look at it this way..If you can get Eli's down to 1.4 second cast time...You have 2 weapons that have 2.0 and 1.9 delay along with 50% haste which brings those down to a/b 1.2ish or 1.3ish delay..Your dps ring procs a lot...You spam all your ca's eli's, steal essence, shrill, dancing blade, noble blade, sandra's... You throw 3 or 4 jcaps an encounter, and you will still parse in the 900's...on single target mobs. <BR><BR>I'm serious...this is exactly what I do, with an effing Windrazor and Dirk... I could get like another mage in my group like a wizard with gift...if we had a wizard...but you gotta work with what ya have.. Also spam things like Lores and ur snare...they will make ur proc buff go off sometimes.. <BR><BR>That's what I do...<BR><BR>Strumma Tune<BR>70 Troubadour<BR> <BR> <HR> <BR>thats with a group setup that pushes your dps......<BR><BR>who the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is gonna givew a bard a group that caters to him?<BR><BR>and even if you manage to get such group.... and even if you ignore the buff needs from the others..... you will still do far less dps than any dps class in without any buffs from others and in slack mode.......<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's a pretty standard group (if not a little weak).  It's NOT a group built for a troub.  The fact that you're getting some melee proc songs is due to being grouped with mostly casters.  Apply poison is standard from an assassin.  Really though, neither the necro or conj need to be in your group for dehate.  </P> <P>Aren't you the one who advocates having like a bazillion casters in your group?  How is this different than what you run with?</P>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<p>That's a pretty standard group (if not a little weak).  It's NOT a group built for a troub.  The fact that you're getting some melee proc songs is due to being grouped with mostly casters.  Apply poison is standard from an assassin.  Really though, neither the necro or conj need to be in your group for dehate.  </p> <p>Aren't you the one who advocates having like a bazillion casters in your group?  How is this different than what you run with?</p><hr></blockquote>it's different because assasin is in mt group for aggro transfer.with 4 casters + one druid + trouby (me) i never even bother with any sort of melee buffs....... (i.e. no haste, no str /sta and also no self buff). those 4 casters are most of the time 2 wizzy's, 1 necro and 1 conjurer. in another group we usually have rangers, swashy all those "useless" fighters and another bard......there the bard is aggro dump and good for haste....</div>

[StrummaTune]

You're pretty clueless dude...Maybe our guilds are just super different, but our rangers and swashies usually are close to the top of the parse and do a crapload of DPS. Our warlock, necro, and conjurors do awesome amounts of dps, too, as well as our assassins. No class is useless, and it's always been my idea as well as my guilds, that everyone adds dps no matter who you are...Including tier 3 dps..If you have dirges parsing in the 800s and troubs in the 900s-1ks...then that adds dps... Our fury parses like almost 1k in lyceum as well as getting very high on the heal parse...Our chanters also throw up some pretty sick numbers...Our warlock, conjuror, and necro are going balls to the wall every zone and grab lots of aggro...they get my proc and my dehate...our assassin parses very well and also gets haste and dehate...and also get agitate...Point is...Troubs can parse the highest if they get people in their groups that they make parse the highest...the more mages the merrier, the least scouts the better, but an assassin doesn't hurt too much...except for that fact that fury can hit u with agitate without an assassin...Strumma Tune<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>StrummaTune wrote:You're pretty clueless dude...<font color="#ff0000">do the world a favor and get hit by a train if you have to insult others......</font>Maybe our guilds are just super different, but our rangers and swashies usually are close to the top of the parse and do a crapload of DPS. Our warlock, necro, and conjurors do awesome amounts of dps, too, as well as our assassins. No class is useless, and it's always been my idea as well as my guilds, that everyone adds dps no matter who you are...<font color="#ff0000">the "useless" was only in relation to fighters..... (which my post made pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] clear), you really dont need too many of them........</font>Including tier 3 dps..If you have dirges parsing in the 800s and troubs in the 900s-1ks...then that adds dps... <font color="#ff0000">i have never seen a trouby or a dirge parse that high (lyceum and hos dont count(dps numbers there are out of whack))</font>Our fury parses like almost 1k in lyceum as well as getting very high on the heal parse...Our chanters also throw up some pretty sick numbers...Our warlock, conjuror, and necro are going balls to the wall every zone and grab lots of aggro...they get my proc and my dehate...our assassin parses very well and also gets haste and dehate...and also get agitate...Point is...Troubs can parse the highest if they get people in their groups that they make parse the highest...the more mages the merrier, the least scouts the better, but an assassin doesn't hurt too much...except for that fact that fury can hit u with agitate without an assassin...Strumma Tune<div></div><hr></blockquote>really, just stop it, i cant have str buff up, i cant have int self buff up and i cant have haste up, due to group setup which im not responsible for......</div>

[Malicorp]

Gimme a Wizard, a Warlock, a Necro, a Conjuror and a Fury and go worry about the other 3 groups and their dps. I use, although admittedly do not maximize, all 4 of the proc buffs that the group provides. All of these classes get the maximum out of 45% Aria Proc, Alin's and PotM for 30seconds every 1.5min. Our Necros almost always need Alin's or a Pally to avoid peeling everytime they use LB and Tide in the same encounter (ie the burn on the MIS named). My group almost always out performs every other group and I parse quite well even when using Jester's on the Brigs, MT, Coercer or MT group healers ever 30secs.

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malicorp wrote:<BR> My group almost always out performs every other group <STRONG>and I parse quite well even when using Jester's on the Brigs, MT, Coercer or MT group healers ever 30secs.<BR></STRONG> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The first part of your statement I'm totally in line with. My group almost always outparses everyone else, but then, the raid leader tends to put the folks who do the most damage and tend to pull the most aggro with me anyway...</P> <P>The second part confuses me.  Is there a way to use the parse so that you, as the troub, get credit for the extra damage everyone is doing? Or do you mean that even when you cast jester's on those classes instead of on yourself, you still do fine??</P> <P>-----</P> <P>And to all the folks talking about troubs parsing 900-1K consistently... how are you parsing and on what???<BR></P>

[Malicorp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malicorp wrote:<BR> My group almost always out performs every other group <STRONG>and I parse quite well even when using Jester's on the Brigs, MT, Coercer or MT group healers ever 30secs.<BR></STRONG> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The first part of your statement I'm totally in line with. My group almost always outparses everyone else, but then, the raid leader tends to put the folks who do the most damage and tend to pull the most aggro with me anyway...</P> <P>The second part confuses me.  Is there a way to use the parse so that you, as the troub, get credit for the extra damage everyone is doing? Or do you mean that even when you cast jester's on those classes instead of on yourself, you still do fine??</P> <P>-----</P> <P>And to all the folks talking about troubs parsing 900-1K consistently... how are you parsing and on what???<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I meant that I am still doing high end dps despite having to switch targets, cast and re-target.</P> <P>What everyone needs to realize that DPS is affected by soooo many things beyond type of the mob/zone. Composition of the raid, spell quality of every player, length of encounter, quality of player at every single position. Ultimately, the higher the DPS of the raid, the more likely the troub is to reach the DPS numbers that many covet. If you raid sits at 15k or below, you'll almost never hit 1k. 20kish and you're odds improve with the appropriate weapons, proc gear and masters.</P>

[Devaron]

<DIV>Even though every concern I have with my class is already addressed here, I thought I'd throw out a few concerns at least to keep this topic alive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest gripe (as a raiding troub) is that we are nothing more than a buffbot that could go afk and auto-follow.  Granted, we have PoM, Bria's  and Jester's but that's about it.  Re-use time of PoM is great but since Jester's is a single target and a long re-use I typically just slap it on the MT on incoming.  The rest of the time our DPS is mediocre at best even going down the DPS lines which I tried.  So what is it exactly that makes Troub's appealing to raids?  Slap us in a caster group and you see some higher DPS and fewer magi pulling aggro... that's about it.  I hate comparing our class to others but compared to the Dirge, Troub's really got the raw end of the deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a comparison of the Dirge vs Troubadour in a raid environment...</DIV> <DIV>Dirges can revive an entire group in-combat - Troubadour can Charm!!! (no wait, that's only heroics... DOH!  maybe grant us a group FD instead)</DIV> <DIV>Dirges can transfer health to other other players in-combat - Troubadour's can grab a soda from the fridge while the raid fights! (why in the world we don't get a transfer power song is beyond me)</DIV> <DIV>Dirges can fear mobs (assuming non-epic) - Troubadours can mez (non-epic)  Woot something we can match the dirges with... too bad there aren't many heroic mobs during raid encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While Troub's and the Dirge's have very similar songs in some aspects, there are others that separate the two.  Unfortunately, unless I'm suffering from the grass is greener syndrom, it really seems that dirges are more useful on a raid.  I chose Troubadour for the Charm and the Mez songs only... I knew it was a sacrifice because the Dirge revive would be really nice to have.  Had I known our charm/mez would be nerfed all to heck I would have chosen a Dirge from the start.  At this point I'm so disgusted with the class I hardly ever play other than to PL some alts but I have that small glimmer of hope that maybe one day the dev's will make us the must have type of class the bards were back in EQ1.  Yes I know this is an entirely different game but we are still a jack-of-all-trades and master of none but I'd like to be at least Adept at something rather than sub-apprentice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What can the dev's do?  For starters, implement instruments into the game and give the bard's different stances... some sort of melee stance or entertainer stance.  One stance for DPS and combat skills while the other is more geared for improving songs, their range in an AE effect surrounding the entire raid.  Grant us a transfer power song since I hardly ever run out of power with FT items since we are mostly grouped with healers or casters.  Take away the conc slot for our solo ability song.  Make Jester's cap active on an entire group with a longer re-use timer.  For the love of God... give us back our speedy feet... nobody should run faster than a bard (wait, that involves an instrument doh!).  Make the Troubadour AA line worth something... as of now, PoM, Bria's and Aria's is about the only thing worth something... wow, there's a shocker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know Troub's have felt the nerf stick more than once and continue to get no love.  I'm holding in there with the possibility that maybe one day we will have some sort of class defining role that will make us something more than a buffbot.  Even though I don't really miss the carpal tunnel days of playing a Bard in EQ1, at least you could really tell a good bard from a bad one... here, your skills as a player is a moot point in a raiding environment.  If you disagree with that statement as a Troub, you are full of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Dev</DIV>

[ted]

I use sta/str loads in caster groups only for the extra HP, also helps a troub with HP and u actually hit harder with the str.  int only raises u to a certain point than it just adds little damage after say 700 INT?

[VericSauvari]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Devaron wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div><u><i><b><font color="#ff0000">I know Troub's have felt the nerf stick more than once and continue to get no love</font></b></i></u>.  I'm holding in there with the possibility that maybe one day we will have some sort of class defining role that will make us something more than a buffbot.  Even though I don't really miss the carpal tunnel days of playing a Bard in EQ1, at least you could really tell a good bard from a bad one... here, your skills as a player is a moot point in a raiding environment.  If you disagree with that statement as a Troub, you are full of it.</div><div> </div><div>-Dev</div><hr></blockquote><font face="Arial" size="3">hell we don't even get a FIX stick..<a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=spells&message.id=20624#M20624"> Troubador - Enhance: Aria of Exaltation</a>(oh and warning..unfiltered swearing in that post by me, the first time it was a joke to PROVE that a dev/mod does not look into our issues..notice that my first post with f*ck is still the same? Since <span><span class="date_text">11-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:48 AM</span>  no mod/dev has gone into that post despite the follow up posts by us. I am now trying to see how long it takes before my most recent tirade gets editted or once again proved to be ignored)</span> anyways, we submitted a pretty big AA bug for TWO of our spells as it also affected bria.. want to guess which class again didn't get a fix in a live update? oh thats right <a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=stat&message.id=343">Uthe dev's favorite ignored child</a>im really close to the last straw here</font></div><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class="date_text">12-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:04 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[BadManHip]

<DIV>Though I am a huge fan of reading the forums, i myself have rarely posted,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been playin off an on for awhile now since the game came out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love playin a Troub, hell i've made 3 of, though i deleted my high lvled pve char because i stopped playing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but the one thing that has made me the most mad throughout the past 2 years is that after nerfing the troub, they just stopped doing anything with it. I am almost positive they forgot we existed. Please show us love.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Hippo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ted]

I parse high 1000s each fight almost fully fabled missing one piece that is a major upgrade which is nightchord hat (only fabled i dont have). its all about the proc gear though and buffs u have on u.  I can parse easy into the 1600 depends on encounter. but constantly in the 1000 plus range. just depends what u cast and what procs every spell i have 1 to 2 procs going off so its not hard to get up their u just need to look into what gear u want to use. plus adorements

[VericSauvari]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>ted19 wrote:<div></div>I parse high 1000s each fight almost fully fabled missing one piece that is a major upgrade which is nightchord hat (only fabled i dont have). its all about the proc gear though and buffs u have on u.  I can parse easy into the 1600 depends on encounter. but constantly in the 1000 plus range. just depends what u cast and what procs every spell i have 1 to 2 procs going off so its not hard to get up their u just need to look into what gear u want to use. plus adorements<hr></blockquote>i assume your in a proc group essentially? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -edit- oh..and extdps or dps? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[AbyssalSoul]

<P>I have thought of betraying my troubador and bringing them back a dirge; but I live for the days that troubadors won't suck.  I understand that they can't have the DPS of an assassin/swashi/etc because we have to sacrifice something for our buffs (don't let me get into those, I'll rant and rave!).  It is my opinion that if you are geared correctly and casting your correct buffs for a raid you aren't going to be doing any major DPS as a troub... perhaps I'm wrong.</P> <P>For example, I went on a raid once where I (my Warlock), and every other DPS in the raid were out DPS'd by the MAIN TANK.  Someone wasn't doing their job, hence the volleyball aggro that killed the whole raid.  </P> <P>I've conceded to the fact that my troubador gets out DPS'd by... well, everyone.  I wish SOE would fix my troub.</P>

[Sunlei]

<P> All i want is my good troub charm back.   Charm with duration made my dps much better and using the charmed mob to postion back attacks was fun! The duration now is way,way to short. </P> <P>To me the fun has been missing from the time of the big charm nurf. I stopped adventuring that day, if you add back  a decent charm I will be free from the crafting dungeons! (70 crafter <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    ) </P> <P>please free me from the crafting!! bring back charm! </P>

[Mildavyn]

<DIV>I'm going to go out on a limb and say i actually LIKE the new charm. Being able to get my pet to attack things without having to pull agro is great. Sure it's only 16.5 seconds, but thats 16.5 seconds that i can have it hitting things... rather than 8 minutes of having it MAYBE attack something if i get hit with an AE.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<DIV>See I just don't see when I would use it over other things. Solo against a group I'll use PotM, so using charm is sort of counter intuitive. If I'm in a group and we're facing a group, this is the only time I could see using it, but then again, if we need to reduce the DPS taken, mez will do a better job. I'm not sure it would increase my DPS at all. Against an add? Well most of the time the add will gun it for the healer, if I mez the mob the tank can get agro at his leisure. If I were to use charm the mob would gun it for either me or the healer. I don't like gambling that my healer will get pounded on. Plus the casting time on the mez is more <SPAN>favourable</SPAN>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To me it's just not good enough. I have better options. And for soloing, which I do a lot, the two are not comparable. The old one was a thousand times more useful.</DIV>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>A charmed mob, like a mezzed mob, is one mob less hitting on the tank. On top of that, a charmed mob is added dps. So, there is really little to think about, which one to use first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While soloing against groups, I pull with charm, immediately taking one mob out of the equation. You can still use PotM. When soloing solo mobs, like grinding for pages in Kaladim, I often charm a mob towards the end of the fight to pull another, so I don't have to leave my safe spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When grouping, I love it, when adds come along, free dps for me. Just have to warn my tank, that adds are my business, so he doesn't taunt my charmed mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hardly remember the old charm, because I practically never used it. Didn't you need to take damage, before your pet did anything?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think maybe the difference betwenn us is that you see charm as a defensive spell, for me it is an offensive spell.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynnigig wrote:<BR> <DIV>A charmed mob, like a mezzed mob, is one mob less hitting on the tank. On top of that, a charmed mob is added dps. So, there is really little to think about, which one to use first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A charmed mob becomes a liability. Who is he going to attack once the charm breaks? With mez, the tank dictates when he's ready to start on the incapacitated mob, and he can grab agro at will. Will the charmed mob output more DPS than you're preventing him to take?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>While soloing against groups, I pull with charm, immediately taking one mob out of the equation. You can still use PotM. When soloing solo mobs, like grinding for pages in Kaladim, I often charm a mob towards the end of the fight to pull another, so I don't have to leave my safe spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The group dies before PotM runs out, or very soon after for me. So I'd be slowing myself down.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When grouping, I love it, when adds come along, free dps for me. Just have to warn my tank, that adds are my business, so he doesn't taunt my charmed mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Who takes the hit after charm breaks? If the mob was stuned for a few seconds so we could mez it afterwards, I'd say go for it. Right now I'm not going to gamble the life of my healer for a little bit more DPS. It's not a worthy trade off. I'll just Mez.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hardly remember the old charm, because I practically never used it. Didn't you need to take damage, before your pet did anything?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Yup. It made me the designated puller. Also gave me a meaningful choice. In small groups, sacrificing some buffs for a "permanent" pet was a better deal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think maybe the difference betwenn us is that you see charm as a defensive spell, for me it is an offensive spell.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Very possible.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[aelder~]

<DIV>Among the myriad suggestions, I have heard no talk of one particular scout tool from which we have been blocked... poisons.  Its never been clear to me why we can't use at least a limited set of poisons.  It would certainly address our collective desires for great dps and improve debuffing.  It would be applicable to both pve and pvp.  I imagine the highest end raid bards would prefer improved damage to our existing spells and CAs (if spells, CAs, and debuffs are weak and don't scale well, you do more damage on auto-attack; therefore the role continues to be shallow in content and play) vs a new component (which would add to autoattack dps).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps this would raise the ire of the other scouts, but since they all can use them I have never seen talk of why we can't.</DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aelder~ wrote:<BR> <DIV>Among the myriad suggestions, I have heard no talk of one particular scout tool from which we have been blocked... poisons.  Its never been clear to me why we can't use at least a limited set of poisons.  It would certainly address our collective desires for great dps and improve debuffing.  It would be applicable to both pve and pvp.  I imagine the highest end raid bards would prefer improved damage to our existing spells and CAs (if spells, CAs, and debuffs are weak and don't scale well, you do more damage on auto-attack; therefore the role continues to be shallow in content and play) vs a new component (which would add to autoattack dps).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps this would raise the ire of the other scouts, but since they all can use them I have never seen talk of why we can't.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe all scouts can apply 3 poisons (one of each type) that are stackable.  It would not be out of the question for a bard to be able to apply at least 1 poison.  It won't be as powerful as the other scouts (which they feel bards should never be, it seems), but it could be a boon to our offensive capabilities.

[Mildavyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A charmed mob becomes a liability. Who is he going to attack once the charm breaks? With mez, the tank dictates when he's ready to start on the incapacitated mob, and he can grab agro at will. Will the charmed mob output more DPS than you're preventing him to take?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><snip></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Who takes the hit after charm breaks? If the mob was stuned for a few seconds so we could mez it afterwards, I'd say go for it. Right now I'm not going to gamble the life of my healer for a little bit more DPS. It's not a worthy trade off. I'll just Mez.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Charm the mob, attack tank's target. then press F1 twice to target your pet. Attack through your charmed pet, then when charm breaks, cheap-shot and cast mez. while mez is cating, target your tank.</P> <P>Wallah! one offensive pet, extra DPS and no one gets hit after charm breaks (except you, you'll always take one hit.)<BR></P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> Wallah! one offensive pet, extra DPS and no one gets hit after <BR>> charm breaks (except you, you'll always take one hit.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good idea and work ssometimes. So many times, though, a DoT will land in the mob during the eternity it takes to cast the mez.<BR></DIV>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>One other great use for charm is being able to collect every shiny you see. Charming the triple-up mob guarding it doesn't put you into battle, leaving enough time to harvest. A group is even easier, if you do nothing after charming one mob, they will attack each other. If you call for help while charm is still active, they tend to totally lose interest in you, attacking each other until one is dead, leaving you with enough time to make a clean escape. At the moment I am having great fun soloing in the lower part of Mistmoore Catacombs. Lots of shinys, which bring good cash and 4 easily killable nameds (most tricky part is getting Stog down from his perch without adding the other gargoyles).</DIV>

[Und3rt0w]

<p>Have there been any improvements?  I am around a lvl 38 Trouby on AB and hoping that things are on the upswing...not very encouraging.</p><p>Our class sets kind of suck, is that correct? Do we share the same hats w/ the Swashys?  Ugghh....</p>

[SpiralDown]

<p>Gonna post cause I got some times and it'll be nice to vent... though not in an angry way <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Won't change anything, but I don't mind.  So, here are a couple specific ideas that I think would be cool, but that won't make them good.</p><p>Buffs...</p><p>Requiem of Reflection: make it more powerful and a temp buff; leave as is and make it a single target, cross raid, that takes no con slots; make it alot more powerful, a self buff and have no con slot.</p><p>Dove Song: stop giving us ways to improve it... class set and aa? thats two ways too many for improving this spell.</p><p>Resist buffs: give dirges and troubs a set of all three nox, element, arcane.  They help every so often and it would be nice to adapt to any situation.</p><p>PotM: add an increased crit spell chance or casting speed or another proc that will give power back to the caster</p><p>AAs...</p><p>I think wis, agi and sta are all fine and do what they're suppose to.  Str and int needs help.  </p><p>Str: I'd make the third in the line apply to all skill increase buffs, so would include dove song and defence buff, and the fourth in the line apply to all stat buffs, so would include str/sta, self-buff and potm</p><p>Int: make the line more about increasing personal dps through spells.  One could be a passive mod to casting skills.  Maybe a self buff that will add a chance to proc on spells, either dmg or an interrupt.  Stuff along those lines.</p><p>That's it /shrug</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>I was levelling a Troub in hopes of replacing my 70 Monk with no raid utility, After playing a troub to level 41 my experience is:</p><p>DPS sucks - I can't solo mobs anywhere close to my level and if I get an add its over (I guess at 50 mezz would help?) Heroics --lol --I got pwned by the 33 heroic named wasp in EL at level 41.</p><p>I find myself bored in groups since I basically just run around bot buff and debuff + fire off my small dmg spells. I admit I love the charm spell and stifle arrows attack, but the charm is soo [Removed for Content].</p><p>The musical note graphics for the spells and runspeed are great - but thats about it, so I'm shelfing my Troub and I started a new Coercer which is already level 30.</p><p>I'm by no means bashing your class, I know you are awesome on raids (which isnt enough for me after seeing the monk vs. Troub solo capability) </p><p>- I love the concept - I /agree you guys need help!!!!!!!!!</p>

[fast arrow]

mostly agree with what has been said before, don't think that the will remove daze/ root from PotM since it is a great buff for mages. i would like to see and ability to put us in stealth so we can use our single stealth attack more, getting Bump from AA lines will help but its reuse timer is to high at 60 sec. also it needs to be fast combination attack then stealth because shroud takes to long to cast. also would like to see a Deity for Scouts, found on Lore & legend forum that Bristlebane is the god of fun and mischief and thats what a bard should be all about <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> also would like to see instruments as charms or weapons that will display on character as the new cloaks do. and to use all songs and ranged abilities on the move all of them make Requiem of reflection useful, make it a ward against curtain damage types. as it is now you need to get hit by a non physical attack which has a 12% chance to cast Requiem for 30 sec and then it will reflect the next one at M1 (10% chance at Adept I seems a very small upgrade to me ;p). increase the chance to the level as Aria of acclamation which start at 30 can be raised to 40 with AA and another 7% with Class eof Chest armor and it could be useful. make the Mez work on Epic's  nice for CC why do we have arcane and elemental songs but not noxious, the latter could also use some increase 1k seems a bit low at M1 while jewelry almost gives the same. and mighty bellow great no power no cast time interrupts target but again no epic and finally increase power regeneration, in long fights i  run OOP even when using hearts and shards because it takes a lot of power to keep all your debuffs going : *Zander's *Demoralizing *Disheartening *Kian's keeping these buffs up during Raid drains me off 1232 power per minute, now lets say u have power regeneration at Adept III like i have you get 51 power per tick thats like every 4 seconds which results in 750 power per minute if u use steal essence all the time you can get 250-1140 power per minute at M1. so to sum it all up the troubador is a support class that can be a battery to others but  seeing these figures makes me want to cry, we can barely brake even with two power abilities to negate our buffs to say the least of out other abilities. it has happened to me that i was OOC before most of the casters in my group were, maybe it was my itchy trigger finger but i want to do something and not debuff and buff all the time and save power for that. don't now about other classes but as a bard it stinks to have four debuff which all cost power to maintain. and then there is Alin's Incandescent Concord our second attack song which does moderate damage and interrupts, works well against groups  but less against single targets  due to "low" damage 292 - 486 mental at adept III. against a group of 6 this will add up to 1662-2918 thats nice dps, but against singles it's not why not make it a damage pool where all damage is divided equally all targets and if it's a single bad luck for him ;p would need to increase reuse time because every 12 sec would be to fast then we would have our Nuke because frankly we don't have one. Assasin has decapitate ( highest melee hit on all servers) we have Perfect shrill maxed out at 1400, 1500 if u have the right leggings unless it goes critical be u get the point. i want to be able to solo without running a marathon to defeat almost any mob or to take 15 minutes to do it. i very much like being a troubador and in raids we are a very sought after class, but solo is another story.

[Slow]

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[Banditman]

You just responded to a post that's 9 months old . . .

[ted]

<p>Why not define the class are we casters or scouts are we utility?!? if we are scouts give us poison, if we are casters stop making stuff mage/SK/pally it only hurts the class more, also if caster increase our damage! half the caster gear a bard would use if they were able to but since it isnt majority are stuck to VP 2 pieces and a ton of group zones we are limited to, we should be a defined class! As a troub we got little or no love for the last 3 years so something needs to change stop making the class worthless and define us and make us a class = to our counter parts coer/ill.!</p><p>Change our spells as stated</p><p>Give the Elis line more damage or a faster casting time.  Now it procs Aria less often, I do more dps over the two second casting time if I just autoattack instead. I'd like a few of our combat arts other than Dancing Blade to do melee damage.  It sucks having some mobs being completely immune to everything we do. Remove all power drains and give us some extra damage on Sandras and Dancing Blade to compensate.</p><p>Why is it Coercer got the power drain changed from power to damage? I think the bard is just a hated class.  It is a class that is only defined as Aria, PoTM, and our flower song other than that our buffs are pretty minimal. It is a class less and less played and the reason is mainly that it is over looked for everything. If you can give coer and ill a dps class than why cant a bard be one also? Isnt that our additional role anyways or are we just defined a Jester Cap with a few useful buffs!!!....</p>

[Moltove]

<p>Ever play LotR:Online? Yeah...I wanna make music. Being a band nerd IRL, I would LOVE more of a bardic feeling than off-scout.</p>