Troubadors: A Vision of Love and Fear

[Jaimster]

<DIV>Someone suggested creating a sticky thread that is Completely on topic about Troubadors that perhaps a Developer might read, so I thought I would start one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 70 Troubador who has experienced what I consider a pretty broad range of gameplay - from Soloing to Raiding, and everything in between.  That does not make me an expert in anything besides what I have experienced, but since I've spent far more time in the past week reading ANY thread regarding Troubadors and the changes currently on the Test Server, I think I have a pretty good idea what some of the biggest issues are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The LOVE part:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a limited number of Troubadors (on my server there are 21 Level 70 Troubs), though the numbers seem to have been increasing recently at the lower levels. I'm not sure why that is, except for perhaps word of mouth, or someone grouping with a Troubador and seeing them as a benefit and a fun class to play.  The Bard classes in general are not for everyone.  They provide for a much more passive type of gameplay, but those of us who enjoy playing a Troubador seem to absolutely love them. Why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>We bring great utility to our groups:</STRONG> We have a series of group buffs that can offer great benefits to our groups. On occasion, I have wished that other classes could "donate" concentration slots because we have so many to choose from. We help them run fast, we increase their in-combat power and health regen, we can increase their Strength and Stamina, their resistances to many damage types, their proc rates, their aggro control, and more.  These buffs are beneficial for obvious reasons, though particularly so when in groups made up of either casters or melee dps (we are not at our best when there is a mishmash of various classes - most groups - since we are limited to 5 concentration slots and I personally always use one for my self buff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Our (minimal) Crowd Control:</STRONG> One of the best aspects of the Troubador class is something that we do not even receive until we hit level 50 and that is Lullaby (Reverie at level 70).  This is one of the most useful spells I have come across.  It can be used against wandering mobs that may aggro the group at the end of a very tough fight and allow the group to regain some power and health before fighting it. It can be used in our solo ventures to allow us to kill a solo mob before attempting it. As a hybrid of a caster and a scout, oftentimes having more than one mob on us can mean death due to interrupts.  If nothing else, we can cast it and RUN if evac is not up!  As a tool we use in soloing to alleviate the stress of very minimal dps, its benefits are clear.  In a group situation, it gives us something that we can do to help the group that is not passive and adds to our fun and enjoyment of the game.  Additionally we get our charm, which is incredibly handy even though it's not really controllable and does break. This is most beneficial to our soloing abilities, or in rare circumstances for adds while grouped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems that part of our love comes from reveling in the fact that we are a hybrid class with great utility and abilities that can make up the difference between a skilled Troubador and a dumb-luck Troubador.  Up until the higher levels, I would say that I was closer to the latter category and have since been able to learn my class well enough to consider myself in the first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The FEAR Part:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe what most Troubadors fear if the proposed changes on test make it to the live servers, is that whether or not we will still be wanted or needed in groups/raids, we will no longer enjoy playing our characters as much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not of the opinion that we will be "unnecessary" to groups because others also have our buffing abilities because it would take a number of specific classes to replace our ONE for the combination of Power Regen, Health Regen, Haste or Procs, Run speed, Aggro Control, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do believe that no Troubador wants to feel as though their group members would not even notice if they went /afk for an hour unless they got stuck behind a wall.  We also don't want to feel like we are grouping or raiding either a) because our friends just want our buffs or b) because our friends feel bad knowing that we can't solo worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore and so we need the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DISPARITIES</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Part of the problem is that our dps didn't seem so bad at lower levels. I could tank duo with a templar no problem up until about level 40 -ish... then it became a little dull.. dps didn't seem so great and neither did my ability to take damage.. then it became fun again because I got Lullaby!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Troubadors have been asking for slightly better dps, and for the Lullaby line to start at a lower level - maybe level 20 would make sense since once upon a time that was when we went from being a Bard to being a full blooded Troubador? - as then we would have more time to learn the ability and make the game be a bit more exciting for us to play prior to level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen people posting on forums, "But the troubador I know is awesome DPS".... at level 20 or 30... Our DPS was infinitely better at lower levels. Again, I think because we become blessed with our major CC at the higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will admit to being quite shocked that level 70 Reverie was increased to last for 50 seconds when I had thought 40 seconds was already quite long, but the answer to that would be reducing the duration a bit. Not decreasing the timer AND increasing the recast.  It will make the spell an "emergency" spell rather than a "utility" spell.  I can't even comment about how little use I will (and I think most agree) have for an 8 second pet with a 1 minute recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate Moorguard's post in another forum regarding the Developer's bigger picture and the changes that they make for the game's health as a whole. I would surely never be able to create a game like this and I realize I cannot even possibly know what goes into it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors would seem to prefer that the Developers remove the LU23 effects from our Aria line, putting it back to where it was prior to the update, as well as making it so that the changes to our class proposed in LU24 NOT go live.  This is entirely understandable from our perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally am unlikely to cancel my account, though at this stage that has more to do with the people I know in game and the friends that I have made, as opposed to any addiction to the game itself.  Since the Developers of EQ2 have made a certain amount of player-questionable changes in the past, BUT have also given us a game that we can love to play and immerse ourselves in for the most part, I think the vast majority of us are hoping to be given some insight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is completely acceptable to me to try and adapt to a new role as a Troubador IF I know what that is going to be. IF I had any concept of what it is I am supposed to be adapting to.  Being purely a "buffbot" that is the preferred choice of dualboxers as the "other toon", is not what I consider to be a adaptable role, nor is it one that is exciting.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were a Dev right now I would be VERY VERY VERY afraid to step into the anger and frustration that has accumulated since Test LU24 and E3.  So I'm sorry if the Troubadors in the forums have made you afraid to comment, but we are doing it because we LOVE our class as it is and we ourselves are very afraid of what our role will be if the changes go live.</DIV></DIV>

[Jaimster]

<p>Message Edited by Jaimster on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[Terabithi]

an excellent post. As I have said in other threads, I am not a bard, but my first toon ever on here was, and I really wish he could have made it. I'm a music teacher in real life, and it makes sense to me to select a bard. With specific regards to the troub class, it's about the playability and the fun-factor. Power-draining is interesting, but not really all that fun, or productive. Most of our skills rely on having casters around, and buffing them. Now, I don't know about you, but my concept of troubs make it rather unlikely that they'd keep company with a bunch of stuffy academics. It just doesn't feel right. Also, it is simply disheartening (a nasty dirge word) to have your class misspelled. Others would feel the same way if they were ranjers, brigends, munks, or whatnot. Troubadours should be the life of the party. They should be funny, charming, inspiring characters. This, I think, is supported by the game's own description of them. why then are their songs/skills not funny, charming, inspiring, or witty? think about how much possibility there is here!! where is the "smile factor"?? I have to say I like what you've done with the dirge class. Though they are not perfect, at least they have a clear concept backing them up, and they are a bit more fun to play, but so depressing.... Troubadours deserve better than to be caster-buff-bots.

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Really, kinda ticks me off honesty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lvl 70 Ranjur LFG</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They cant get our class name right, what makes you think they will care enough to fix the spells.</DIV>

[J]

<P>I like your post... I loved by Troubadour.  Loved my troubadour almost as much as I loved my weaponsmith.</P> <P>As the person who maintained issues in a post similar to this for the weaponsmiths for over a year... I wish you luck. Our thoughts and dreams, visions and fears, suggestions and concerns have never been responded to by a dev.</P> <P>With regards to my posts here... I can't say I'm sorry for them. My patience with this company has come to an end. The only reason why I'm even hanging out at all is because I am curious what they decide to do. With Moorguards recent post he made it clear that you have only two choices when they make change:</P> <P>1- you can adapt and play with the changes.</P> <P>2- you can vote with your money and leave.</P> <P>There should be an option 3, in which devs will listen to the player base and adapt to their concerns, dreams, needs and fears. I'm not talking making everyone happy, but many classes have at least a general consensus for their dreams and directions. </P> <P>But since he made no room for an option 3, and I have grown tired of constantly bending over and choosing option 1, I have felt it my duty to choose option 2. Option 2 is the only response to which they listen. They do not listen to these posts. They do not listen to us. They only listen to our money.</P>

[Mishrac]

<P>On the spot Jaimster.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nice post and I totaly agree, You have my vote as a spokes person for the Troubadors.</P> <P> </P> <P>Kind regards</P>

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

<P>Thank you for this post :smileyhappy:</P> <P>My biggest fear, which has started to grow steadily since LU23 and escalated with the announcement of LU24, is not that my class is undeeded, underpowered or consistently 'nerfed' - my biggest fear is that I will no longer enjoy playing my class at all. Although there clearly are issues of balance with our class, I am worried that nobody really knows what the plan is for troubadours, what their role actually is. I echo Jaimsters feelings on how little use the new CC abilities will be to us, which I think hurts our community as a whole because everyone here chose to be a utility class. With most of that utlity now entirely passive, the prospects of better debuffing or improved damage from spells does little to comfort me as a player. If these aspects of gameplay appealed, I would have opted for a rogue or predator.</P> <P>Of course I will try LU24, but it is the 24th update into the game. Should the fate of our class still be balanced on the egde of a knife? There has been little comment on our class since it was radically changed in LU13; as LU24 is going to be yet another major impact on how we play, we really need to get some feedback on what the vision for troubadours is. </P>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<DIV>> my biggest fear is that I will no longer enjoy playing my class at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree. I love utility classes. Even if you can't do everything well, you might have an ability sorely needed by your group at a critical time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems we are moving from a utility class to a buffing class. I really don't like playing buffing classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>buffs up? (check)</DIV> <DIV>/afk flag set? (check)</DIV> <DIV>/follow on? (check)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK, time to read a book.</DIV>

[Bassist]

Well said!My fear is losing the fun.  I love having a zerker or SK as the tank because I have to pay much closer attention to adds so they are mezzed prior to coming in range of the AoEs.  Now it will simply become a delay, once cast not able to be reused in time to prevent the mob from entering the AoE of the tank.I won't have to miss the 30-40 minute battles with heroic mobs.  As stated in many a post that was absolutely my favorite part of the troub.  The challenge in pushing the envelope if you worked hard enough.  I believe it will still be possible, just obviously more dangerous since I would have no room for adds.  Maybe I'll still have that, at least <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[plutek]

<div></div>I haven't posted any on the Troubadour changes simply because I don't think I'll be heard. I would like to say that this is an excellent post, though.<p>Whether or not the changes go through, I'm sure I'll still play my Bardlet, but I would like just one thing in return for my devotion: An explanation as to why the changes "must" occur.</p>

[Shiloh]

<P>Very good post; thanks Jaimster!</P> <P>I've played a bard in 3 of the 4 MMORPGs I've played.  (Our SWG guild needed a merchant.)  I've lasted 2 years here, but I must say, after our first big nerf 5 months (?) into the game, I've enjoyed EQ2 the least.  Possibly because that nerf coincided with me hitting level 30 or so, I just found that I couldn't solo very well anymore and by the time I learned crowd control, we'd been smacked again.</P> <P>I stayed a bard and hardly played other classes at all because I love my guild and feel *far* more attuned to my bard than other "more rewarding to play" classes.  But I've only played one weekend in the past 6 weeks or so.  I've never been uber and I won't even touch white-cons solo but that was ok.  I think what finally got me was the change they made that let low-con mobs see through our stealth.  I'd gotten used to being invited less and less to groups.  But suddenly getting smacked by greens I'd walked past the day before really got to me.  It was one thing to have "combat stuff" nerfed in the interests of balance - after all, the devs have far more data than I do - but quite another to have a basic scout ability like stealth suddenly cheapened.</P> <P>Sorry to sound like a whiner, but I very probably won't renew when this subscription period runs out, and this seemed as good a place as any to let SOE know why a troub who only plays one game at a time, doesn't have another game lined up and loves his guild is leaving.  It just seems that as time goes by the class is getting less fun to play . . . not because of ennui or "game fatigue," but because SOE ignores past concerns AND introduces new gripes.  Honestly, it got to the point where - when they released notes for the live updates - I would hope NOT to see Troubador in the list of affected classes. . . it was NEVER good news!</P> <P>I know there are troubs out there who solo and group well and love the class.  And I don't begrudge SOE a cent they've made off of me.  They've created a wonderful game.  But getting the same spell set every 14 levels, and finding that a level 68 fight against a blue-con played out almost exactly like a level 54 and level 40 fight just got old.  Added content via the expansions was fine (and expensive) but I just didn't feel like my character was actually *growing.*  The additions of charm and mez were more than offset by nerfs.  From level 20 to 70 there was never anything else that felt "new" or made me feel more expansive.  Spells and CAs seemed to get proportionally *weaker* as they upgraded.  That is, if the difference between the level 20 spell and it's level 34 counterpart was - for example - 50 average damage, the difference between the level 34 and 48 spells was maybe only 35. . . AND the difference between Adept1, A3, and M1 got less as well (and VERY expensive - not just in simply higher costs, but as a percentage of my income.)</P> <P>I'll miss the game but I haven't seen a dev post to troubs in ages and I see nothing on the horizon that even HINTS that anything will change for the better in the next 6 months.  I truly wish you all - and SOE - the best of ingame and RL experiences.</P> <P>Kwee - 70 troub - Crushbone</P> <P>P.S.  Oh!  Yes, the achievement additions made me "feel more expansive."  But those were almost a given with the expansion, following on the EQ1 tradition.  And they certainly weren't a sign that the devs were trying to redress anything bard-specific.</P><p>Message Edited by Shiloh on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:42 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

<P>Thanks for posting everyone <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> LOL I'm glad I wasn't off base about how a lot of other Troubadors feel. Now hopefully the powers that be will read it too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I tried to sticky it but it got unstickied somehow.</P>

[Toskrin]

I rolled a Troubador for the charm spell.  I liked it as a Coercer but wanted to be in the thick of the fight.  Oh well, so long Troubador, and so long EQ2.  I'll continue to enjoy soloing with my charm spell until LU 24 goes live.  What bothers me the most is that I thought that Charm would be safe since, at release it wasa useless spell and it was beefed up in LU 13.  I know the devs need to continuously change the game, but that sort of inconsistency is infuriating.

[Glamourpuss]

<P>Brava, Jaimster, brava!</P> <P>----------</P> <P>Sashae Chante - 58 troub of LDL</P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <DIV>Someone suggested creating a sticky thread that is Completely on topic about Troubadors that perhaps a Developer might read, so I thought I would start one.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I started a similar thread a few days ago and got good responses from the other troubadors, but sadly nothing from the devs.<BR></P>

[Killerbee3000]

<P>my main problem with the upcoming changes to troubadurs is that im scared of the passive role of a buff bot. </P> <P>I dont know, but soe has a lot of people working on eq2 and im pretty sure atleast one of them has an idea how to make bards a bit more active. </P> <P>our crowd control will be nerfed, but what do we get in return for it? nothing.  the problem with it is that crowd control was something lots of group wanted to have in case of adds. while lvling up from 60 to 70 i could just type in a public channel crowd control and pwer regen lfg, i got lots of invites that way. sure now that im 70 i dont need groups that much anymore. but still, plz give us something in return for nerfing our cc. </P>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>The CC nerf hits my solo/group play at its corest core. Sure, I can just shrug at the accidental pull, but... I have no problems seeing the overpowered part of nuking for 8-10k with a corpse candle. Its just that whoever saw that - nerfed it to useless - most likely never have ran around Bonemire with a corpse candle. It was risky as nothing else. Taking on anything but solo mobs was (for me) near 100% chance of breaking and getting hit *hard* by both the heroic and the mezed. And they most certainly never understood the "can't order attack" part. I've prolly given more then a few plat back to the Mender after various charm experiments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mez change. Thats just sad. As mentioned getting interrupted is nasty for a hybrid caster/scout class. 20/20 is effectively 1 target only. Sure we could keep 4-5 targets mezed earlier, but it took a lot of work. In add situations it was the ability to remez, and to take out 2 targets in 10 seconds that where the real tool. Thats gone. Its 1 shot. Its just sad. With a chanter in group I would never mez anyway, so I just dont understand the change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And thats why we dont get any feedback. They can't explain it in any rational way, or in any way that will be accepted by the troubadour community. What could they say? It was overpowered? How? It just feels so totally unfair. Just knowing this is going to hit the servers no matter what have reduced the fun-factor of Eq2 greatly for me. I seriously contemplate just shelfing the game and find something else to do. Even if I just joined one of the most fun guilds ever and have had a real blast in game the last couple of months. Even with a great adventure pack and a promising expansion in the near future. This change just negates that and I feel real down whenever I save myself with a mez these days...</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>It was the corpse candles that needed nerfing, not the charm.</DIV>

[starlight02]

awesome post!  it's full of constructive criticism, without being hateful or pessimistic.  i totally agree with everything that was stated.  i love my troub, but i can't help but feel apprehensive about the upcoming changes in LU24, especially after the changes in LU23 made aria worthless.  i'm not going to cancel my account, and i'm not going to pitch a huge temper tantrum in the forums, but i would appreciate it if the devs would take into consideration our concerns.  charm and mez were part of the reason i chose troub over dirge, and i would hate to see them go.  take care!!!

[Stillwate]

Just a post to bump a good thread and toss in my support. I posted much longer in another thread, so here I will only say:Please tell us why our charm and mez had to be changed like this? No one I know understands it. Some people have even admitted to me they really won't group with Troub's as much if this goes through. Talk about making me sad.<div></div>