Troubs truely are useless in a group

[SeregWethrin]

I was in a group yesterday and decided to test out our new roll so i stopped debuffing and attacking and except on the named it was impossible to tell the difference.  Not a single person in the group realized i was afk for long blocks of time while I worked on my website.  I would occasionally debuff the mobs since i still was there but they never did notice if i never debuffed and didnt notice the lack of my damage.  I couldnt even tell myself on the time it took kill the mobs. <div></div>

[Jooneau]

Our debuffs are practicaly worthless. The only thing noticeable that we bring to a group is crowd control (charm and mez), and it looks like they're taking that away from us in LU24. After that, the only thing left to do would be to make monsters resistant or immune to mental damage, and then Troubadors will be completely screwed.

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>. After that, the only thing left to do would be to make monsters resistant or immune to mental damage, and then Troubadors will be completely screwed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lol, ever done any tier 6 raiding?  There are mobs I can't even debuff, all I could land was Taffos and autoattack.<BR></P>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>Most players feel useless in a raid :p</DIV>

[raven0]

Bards seem useless in EQ2. I noticed a significant drop in group kills when we changed out a T2 DPS class with a bard. The debuffs/buffs just dont really scale well to make any noticable difference. It just seems like dead weight to bring a bard to a group. Bards *need* a significant buffing.The only thing we noticed with a bard, is that we could run faster.... thats it.. really.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Warond]

Meh...the debuffs stop epics from hitting so hard =P <div></div>

[Shalwin]

<DIV>Don't forget the mana regen, folks like that a lot too.  Doesn't change the fact that you don't need to be there.  That's what most groups I've been in have noticed, not that they kill faster, but they have to stop and rest less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I should look at the destruction of our CC capabilities as a blessing in disguise.  Now nobody will expect me to do anything at all in a group.  I can just /follow the cleric, highlight the tank and hit the ranged autoattack icon every now and then.  Better yet, I could just stealth while auto following, that way if the group wipes, I'll still be there to rez the cleric.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess when you're given lemons, you can either make lemonade... or throw them at the people that gave them to you.  </DIV>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:Our debuffs are practicaly worthless. The only thing noticeable that we bring to a group is crowd control (charm and mez), and it looks like they're taking that away from us in LU24. After that, the only thing left to do would be to make monsters resistant or immune to mental damage, and then Troubadors will be completely screwed.<hr></blockquote>Debuffs are perfectly useful after casting Jester's on yourself followed by PoM when attacking the dragonlets in HoF <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Myk]

<P>If you're not debuffing, you are shortchanging your groupmates.</P> <P>Troubs have very nice debuffs, IMO.</P>

[PKennyK]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mykin wrote:<div></div> <p>Troubs have very nice debuffs, IMO.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree, I have an extremely fun time whenever I play my troub. Mobs definately hit me a lot less and not as hard when I have my debuffs on them while I solo. It's harder to tell if it has any impact in groups though. Everyone's got their own debuffs goin and the healers usually have the tank full.I love the proc songs, PoM + aria of acclamation is great in caster groups(for me too <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>). I always stay in CA range also so when I get done casting my CA's that proc off those songs I can just let loose with the regular CA's instead of waiting for PoM to expire. My dps goes through the roof whenever I have those songs on.I usually have a parser running in the background and I am quite happy with the dps I can get with my troub. I was skeptical from all the people on here looking down on troub dps but I am impressed. I'm one of those crazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dps always running in and out doing bow shots and such, I can't just sit back and hit a button every couple min like alot of dps I see(*cough* rangers *cough*), that's just boring as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I always like to see if I can run out of mana each fight <span>:smileywink:</span>Laina70 Troubador59 WeaponsmithKithicor</div><p>Message Edited by PKennyK on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>Our debuffs are practicaly worthless. The only thing noticeable that we bring to a group is crowd control (charm and mez), and it looks like they're taking that away from us in LU24. After that, the only thing left to do would be to make monsters resistant or immune to mental damage, and then Troubadors will be completely screwed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's not true at all.  We have very nice debuffs and if you're not using them then you're not playing your class to its full extent.</P> <P>It would be nice if we didn't have to share one of them with dirges though.</P>

[Mimsi]

<DIV>I think what he's saying is the difference is marginal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP is suggesting that if you dont debuff, your group is only very slightly less effective, the mob uses a fraction more power (pointless) has 80 less str (woop!) or intelligence, etc. He's summizing that the difference between not debuffing and debuffing for most people's encounters might well be insignificant. Of course, our precious debuffs are stacked on a zillon and one other debuffs available to all other classes via CAs, procs etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the dynamic I think sony have really screwed up on this time round. Procs from everything/one, buffs from everyone. It's unmanageble and now we're caught in the cataclysm of the rebalance (no class more so, as it's our raison-d'ete). If in EQ1 you had a proc on a weap, or *gasp* a weapon that procced a stun you were uber! Here the world and his wife have stuns; fine duoing as little toons but technically a raiding/ endgame disaster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to rattle through my debuffs religiously, and find myself LoP with RSI. Now mostly it's, as posted before, jesters/potm and debuff spam. Cancel, repeat. I still debuff anything significant in the vain hope it'll make things easier, but with T6+ mobs it seems an irrelevance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember a shamen not getting a slow early in EQ1? Maybe a resist? It was critical, if they didn't land the shamen was dead (and usually the whole raid or group). If only we had one cast that made a significant difference - RoR anyone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It might be fun to do some non-scientific parses (of course way too many variables) and to see what actual difference a buffed/ non-buffed group, then a not debuffed/ debuffed mob makes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm too fed up to try it. Go for it enthusiastic people. Lets see how uber we are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[MrCanoehead]

<P>I dunno about DPS going throught the roof.</P> <P>Mez, Charm, and Procs were the tools that enabled us to do solo what any other class in the game can do with ease.  (i.e succeed against even con solo encounters).  I am satisfied with this.  I didn't roll a troub to play solo.</P> <P>Keep in mind however, that a troub in crafted armor and adept I spells is supposed to be able to handle this.  I see alot of "I can do this" or "I can do that" with no mention of what kind of gear you are using.</P> <P>With 11 master spells and full legendary gear I am still doing 400dps on average in raids.  This is using PotM every time it comes up and with my Int and Str capped.  Again the DPS for me is enough for me because I see myself as a support class and not a big hitter.</P> <P>What disturbs me most is the passivity of the class.  Mez (broken after next update)  and Jesters Cap (broken until last update) are the only skills that require anything other than button mashing.  So I can now get my gf to sit in on raids for me while I tell her " See all these buttons here.  Push them in order".  /Yawn.</P> <P> </P>

[Myk]

<P>The only time troub buffs are not worth much is when your group is taking on easy encounters.  Our most important buffs reduce the DPS of target encounters, so if you are fighting easy stuff, there is not much need to debuff certain attributes/skills.  </P> <P>However, if you are in a group that is pushing itself, like fighting orange encounters, then debuffing mobs is an absolute no-brainer.  </P> <P>I suspect the OP is fighting stuff that is simply too easy.  If so, get your group to go elsewhere or encourage the MT to pull multiple encounters at a time    :smileywink:</P>

[Jooneau]

I can't believe you guys have totally bought into the placebos that are our buffs and debuffs.They sound great in their descriptions, but their actual effects have been pointless for a long time. They've been tweaking Defense and resists so much without changing the actual effects of our spells that these spells mean practically nothing in actual gameplay.The OP was spot on when he described how he felt when he stopped buffing and debuffing and just did everything else (apart from crowd control) that a bard could do. Which basically is, spam combat arts as soon as they refresh. Which, quite frankly, if I wanted to do, I would have rolled a Scout with better combat arts like Assassin or Brigand.Our best spells are mez, charm, and the ranged stifle. Without those, we're substandard gimpy DPS.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Bassist]

<blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:I can't believe you guys have totally bought into the placebos that are our buffs and debuffs.They sound great in their descriptions, but their actual effects have been pointless for a long time. They've been tweaking Defense and resists so much without changing the actual effects of our spells that these spells mean practically nothing in actual gameplay.The OP was spot on when he described how he felt when he stopped buffing and debuffing and just did everything else (apart from crowd control) that a bard could do. Which basically is, spam combat arts as soon as they refresh. Which, quite frankly, if I wanted to do, I would have rolled a Scout with better combat arts like Assassin or Brigand.Our best spells are mez, charm, and the ranged stifle. Without those, we're substandard gimpy DPS.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class="date_text">05-18-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Wow, I'm sorry but some of our buffs are useful.  The resist buffs are unbelievably useful.  Debuffs:  throw discante and processional and you greatly reduce damage to the tank.  The others have their uses, depending on group/raid makeup, but 1k mental/magic/divine is hard to call useless.  2k single target mental debuff is huge for tanks hitting with taunts and keeping agro.  I wouldn't call the others marginal, but may be used or not used depending on group makeup.When in HoF use PoM with the drakelings and say it isn't fun to spam the debuffs.  Or better yet, do it with a zerker/bruiser/warlock and watch them last a few seconds between the two of you.The buffs/debuffs do help.  I'm sorry that you don't see it as such.

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Alins is THE best buff in the game for a dps group, period.</DIV>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> What disturbs me most is the passivity of the class.  Mez <BR>> (broken after next update)  and Jesters Cap (broken until <BR>> last update) are the only skills that require anything other <BR>> than button mashing.  So I can now get my gf to sit in on <BR>> raids for me while I tell her " See all these buttons here.  <BR>> Push them in order".  /Yawn.</P> <P>I agree, although I think I would throw in charm. I liked the troubadour, because it was interesting and active. Now, though, it appears we will be a fairly boring play.</P>

[Shalwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alins is THE best buff in the game for a dps group, period.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You bet it is!  Helps those DPSers lay down some serious damage!  The best thing is that you don't have to be at the keyboard for it to work.  Just get in a group /follow /afk... everybody wins!</P> <P> </P>

[SeregWethrin]

Actually our debuffs do not have as big of an effect as most people seem to think pve.   I have tested this against orange mobs and against greens.  Against orange mobs yes your tank takes a little less damage but nothing spectacular and would take less overall if i was replaced with a dps class.    In pvp on the otherhand debuffs can be crippling <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   From what i could tell pve though the difference in difficulty for us debuffing a mob is minimal.  It doesnt save the healer much power (not that i have seen any decent healer get into power troubles.)  I am not saying our buffs suck just that the debuffs as they stand are pretty pointless on mobs that barely notice the effects.  Our wisdom debuff doesnt lower the resistances on a mob enough to matter.   Most of peoples damage comes from CA's and not melee damage so the agility debuff has alot less effect for melee dps classes.   Some of the longer heroic battles with bosses and named yes your debuffs will play a large roll but as it stands not from what i can tell by watching the length of the battles they dont change much in a battle.  Every little bit helps i am just telling people that most players see troubs as useless in a group as it is now and would rather have a dps class.  If they take mez and charm away it will also take away the utility we brought to a group.  troub will no longer possess any utility other than evac a generic scout tool.  You really cant call a buff or debuff utility when its always the same and on everything you do.  For me personnally utility was what always stood out as a bard for me such as in eq1 when we were gods of utility.  Now SOE has decided to pull the last bit of utility out of this class and make it a brainless class to play.  I play games for the challenge and have always hated games that do easymode such as WoW now EQ2  and EQ1 starting at luclin.  After they take the charm/mezz away my only purpose will be to be a button smashing idiot like the rest.I guess its to much to ask to have a game be challenging.  I just hope the people working on Vanguard dont give in and keep everything that promise to make it o fun and challenging such as a CR death with meaningful xp loss/debt. <div></div>

[Jooneau]

Bassist, all it takes is one Brigand-class NPC to negate the benefit of our resist buffs. You need to broaden your horizons and play some other classes besides Bard to get a better understanding of just how gimpy our buffs and debuffs are. Try playing a Brigand and examine their debuffs sometime. Heck, just fight some Brigand NPC's, and you'll understand what I'm talking about. They have debuffs worth using. Play some Fighter classes and notice how many of our buffs were farmed out to them (haste, health regeneration, etc).Why don't you try NOT using your buffs and debuffs sometime and see how little difference they actually make in your combat sometime? Perhaps at one point our buffs and debuffs were worth using, but these days they're not worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Take a look at what they did to power drains, for instance. Power drains used to be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]; now they are worthless, because they boosted max power and power regen on non-solo encounters to the point where the only thing that drained NPC power was them using their special abilities often enough.If all I wanted was to contribute spam combat art damage to a group, I would have rolled another Scout class or heck even a Fighter class. At least a Fighter class could take some hits, and the other Scout classes do better damage with their arts. I suppose our damage arts were balanced with the mistaken notion that our buffs and debuffs would compensate for them, or maybe the guy in charge of Troubador balance is just a total flippin' slacker who got his game design degree from Whatsamattawit U.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 AM</span>

[Bassist]

Oh, I know the buffs/debuffs of other classes.  I haven't put the following in the links because it wasn't posted here, but I'll ask the poster:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89606" target=_blank>buff/debuff spreadsheet</a>It's not 100% up-to-date with some upgrades, but it's really close.  I'm going to be sending the troub updates/missing values.There's overlap on all debuffs.  Demoralizing and Discante combined remove some good damage when I've used them.  I don't use Discante for the AGI debuff, as I agree with you there.  But the STR debuff over a long fight reduces a lot of damage, and as long as the healers are paying attention to overheal it will save power.  Now if we could get an upgrade to Zander's it would be awesome!In slow groups I would say Brigands have the advantage over us, but with fights longer than 20 seconds or groups chain pulling we have the advantage.  Most of their debuffs are short duration/long recast.  Ours are long duration/short recast.  How I use my debuffs in a raid:<ol><li>Guviena's Chant to let me hit easier with the rest</li><li>Zanders</li><li>Demoralizing</li><li>Discante</li></ol>On slow burns I will throw Kian's for the DoT, since 75 WIS is only around -225 or so for saves and not worth the power it draws.  Guviena's also helps tanks hit with taunts, which are mostly mental casts.Thinking about what I do in groups I'm going to have to relent and agree that they may not be very useful.  I throw on Demoralizing out of habit and haven't done any parsing in groups recently.  Take note, people.  You are allowed to realize a mistake <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<BLOCKQUOTE>Wis does not just increase your spell mitigation slightly, it also increases your chance to outright resist, so Kians is definitely worth using.</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jooneau]

All debate aside, thank you for that excellent buff/debuff comparison link! Bassist, you are always one with the good links!

[SeregWethrin]

Kains is not a big enough difference to make a difference to resist that little bit of wisdom as someone said is like 225 resists.  Thats not even 2 percent resistance chance.  I dont know about other People is that this makes a difference when fighting hard oranges bosses and reds for resists and then the diffence in ability to resist or not is still less that 5% at best.   A better spell against spell migitation is the slow as it decreases mental migitation by a huge amount i believe over 1000.   Thats why its so pathetic in the upper game as mobs dont really resist much based on resistances as level difference.  Our power drain dot its only marginally useful because of the defense lowering.   Most of our debuffs are really good ideas but we need more situational ones and I personally would like to see them powered up and use a concentraition slot on a few really nice ones.  <div></div>

[Snublefot]

Kians is 5% of your dps. At least. Its just stupid not casting it as soon as possible. I usually pull with Alins, throw Kian while the mob is incoming and then burst the mob hard.

[vinterskugge]

Imagine resists as mitigation, whilst WIS is avoidance.  By using Guviena's, for example, you lower the mob's mental mitigation so you hit for more.  By lowering wisdom, you decrease the chance for people to get outright resisted.  It's not just 225 to resists.

[Draks]

<P>2 ways were usefull in a grp as I see it........ok maybe just 1.....welll, ok this is it; as long as you have overpowering DPS for whatever zone you are in (minus you...cause you suck), you can stand there chat during the fight.....and look cool in your yellow [Removed for Content] hat....that's about it. </P>

[starlight02]

oh wow at the negativity!  imo, it's in groups that troubadors are truly able to shine.  we have alin's for anger management, gerard's for haste, quiron's for health regen, bria's for power regen, minstrel's for spellcasters, and some of the best runspeed buffs in the game.  and our debuffs DO help out a lot, you just have to know what you're doing and keep them all upgraded to adept 1 or higher.  I LOVE MY TROUB!  =D  take care!!!

[Sir Blig]

<P>I am sure more than a few know there troubs, </P> <P>All my spells are Adept I or higher, with all my T6 spells at Adept III or master, and a few T7 at Adept III and Master I or II.</P> <P>Around my gear most is legendary or fable,</P> <P>I have done a lot raiding, used to raid every day, at least 2 hours every week day and 4-6 hours each day over weekends,</P> <P>Otherwise out side of that most of the time I ended going solo, not because wanted too but because it was next to impossible to get into groups, I have had hours and hours go by with LFG flying high and nothing to show except hours of solo. If I had to think of a ratio between being able to group and having to live solo while looking I would say near 70/30 70 being solo</P> <P>The question is do we add enough? As mentioned most other classes have skills that cover what we can do, and when looking at there skill one has to start wandering what is left that we can bring to the party that makes it worth inviting us, sure we have great agro reducing and had a nice proc, post 24 mez and charm will be deathtraps</P> <P>Around solo and for groups many think we could do with a dps boost and I can agree.</P> <P>Around groups one really has to say why would we be invited if there was a spread of other classes to choose from, a big one would be if they just took another DPS would they not more than make up whatever we would have done thanks to shorter combat?</P> <P>Same for the rest, could we not do with a few things to make us more group desirable, and not just in raids and wiz/warlock heavy groups.<BR></P>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>- we have alin's for anger management</DIV> <DIV>I almost never use this in a group. Only if the tank is really bad is this necessary. Only useful in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- gerard's for haste</DIV> <DIV>Useful, as long as the group consists mostly of melees. Monks and enchanters buff this as well, better than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- quiron's for health regen</DIV> <DIV>Useful, if you don't have a healer in the group. Berserkers also buff this. I recently used this on a raid, when I was stuck in a group without a healer. Didn't make a difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- bria's for power regen</DIV> <DIV>Useful. Enchanters also buff this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- minstrel's for spellcasters</DIV> <DIV>Might be useful, when fighting orange or red mobs. I never put it up. Warlocks buff this as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, depending on what other classes you already have in your group, the troubadour's usefulness can be quite marginal. If you are going for efficiency it might be wiser to add more dps instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concerning raids, I would like to see some comparisons of the usual troubadour group with the troubadour and his deaggro buff and the same group with the troubadour replaced by dps. Will the extra dps make up for the casters having to be a bit more careful with their damage output?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concerning feeling useful or not in a raid, we did Halls of the Seeing yesterday. The two spiders are mental immune, which reduced me to just casting Jester's and PotM. That made me feel useless.</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Cynnigig wrote: <P>Will the extra dps make up for the casters having to be a bit more careful with their damage output?</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>No.  40% is huge.</P> <P></P> <HR> Concerning feeling useful or not in a raid, we did Halls of the Seeing yesterday. The two spiders are mental immune, which reduced me to just casting Jester's and <STRONG>PotM</STRONG>. That made me feel useless. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>          Why use that?

[Bong_water]

<blockquote><hr>SeregWethrin wrote:I was in a group yesterday and decided to test out our new roll so i stopped debuffing and attacking and except on the named it was impossible to tell the difference.  Not a single person in the group realized i was afk for long blocks of time while I worked on my website.  I would occasionally debuff the mobs since i still was there but they never did notice if i never debuffed and didnt notice the lack of my damage.  I couldnt even tell myself on the time it took kill the mobs. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry your troub sucks balls <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[Cynnigig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Concerning feeling useful or not in a raid, we did Halls of the Seeing yesterday. The two spiders are mental immune, which reduced me to just casting Jester's and <STRONG>PotM</STRONG>. That made me feel useless. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>          Why use that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Out of habit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You're right, doesn't make sense.<BR>

[Snublefot]

Those mobs are pretty much debuff mental - debuff whatever you can land - autoattack and dodge ae. But thats how it is sometimes. Just be glad not every raidmob makes you that gimped.

[Weas]

Man, i'm went from playing a Warlock on PVE to a Troub on PVP.  Let me say, if you wanna see a class that sucks  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in groups, look at Warlocks.  I love my Troub in PVP... I can do group str debuffs of 81 at level 34, knock down their Wisdom, Dot, Haste for monks that stacks, power regen, health regen, and spell dps enhancements.  Combine all that and you get a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] group against other groups.  Not only that, I can be a secondary tank.  I love this class so far.<div></div>

[Jooneau]

Those buffs and debuffs are not nearly as helpful as most people, including some Troubadours, believe, especially at level 34.They look really good when you read the descriptions, but in practice, they don't mean nearly as much as, say, the ability to take damage (tanking), the ability to cure damage taken (healing), or the ability to deal significant amounts of damage quickly (DPS).Knocking down WIS is not nearly as effective as the "decrease all physical damage mitigation" or "decrease all magical damage mitigation" debuffs that some other classes have.STR debuffs don't have as strong an effect as "decrease all Slashing, Piercing, Crushing" debuff (which we get eventually actually but only at a high level), a "decrease attack speed" debuff, or wards to negate the amount of damage dealt by NPC's.Haste and DPS buffs only affect auto-attack melee damage, not combat arts. Combat arts and spells do more damage than auto-attack melee in most situations.Our power and health regeneration buffs only work in-combat and give a tiny (usually less than 1 percent per tick) boost to power and health regeneration during combat. Both benefits are dwarfed by the massive innate out-of-combat power regeneration and provisioner drinks as well as "health regeneration" in the form of heals from any priest and even some fighter classes.We're not "secondary tanks." We're generally one/two-hit fodder for raid encounters and power sponges in group encounters if we're taking damage.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 AM</span>

[Trabbart]

<P>PvE and PvP dont compare.</P> <P>Also a high level troub doesnt compare to a lev 30 one. After 50 or so tanking is out of the question and the debuffs mean litlle and will drain your mana fast. With no dps you will level sloooooowly if soloing. With no real skill set you will be levelling afk on autofollow while grouping</P> <P>Glad you are having fun though, I used to........ </P>