Lets face it...

[Vandileir]

<DIV>SOE does not want any one to play this class. I really can't come up with another reason to explain the consistant battering this class has taken with little to nothing in return for what we lose. And I tried, oh how I  tried to be positive since I love this toon with all my heart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The proc changes hurt me. It took away my ability to do ANY dps. Now there is a severe nerf to my already watered down CC abilities. Why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was I so over powered? Was I so game breaking that this is justified? If this class is not to be enjoyable, then please, an employee of sony come in here and tell it to my face. If not, then come in here and explain what is good in this class besides being a mana battery and an aggro reducer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've only seen 5 lvl 70 Troubadors with my own eyes on Guk. I made a list for every time I inspected one so it's true. There isn't enough of us for sony to even care what becomes of this class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this is the last straw, I'm switching back to my old main from pre Lu13. Playing this class is now a waste of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's sad to see a character I loved so much, enjoyed so much, and took so much pride in, shelved because SOE's only awnser in life to an issue is to nerf everything else around it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's heartbreaking really....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jaimster]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>I feel the same way. I really enjoy playing my other characters, but not as much as I love my trouby.  I haven't done more than log in and say hi since I heard about the changes on Test... ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>It is mindboggling to me how much work has to go into a game like this, how much dedication the SOE devs have to have to the game, because I think they must be crazy to deal with what is usually a lot of whiners and a lot of people who want their playstyle catered to - I mean it must drive them crazy to feel like they can't please anyone, ever, so they do their best to make changes that they think will be better for the game in the longrun, that will make the majority of players happy (or at the very least won't upset them)... It's a huge balance between casual and hardcore - keeping the game fun for everyone is a delicate balance and fine line...</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>But that having been said, I can't imagine anyone saying '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that Troubador is SOOOOOO Uber you must nerf them to hell and back'... unless that's happening on PvP servers... and they said PvP wouldn't ruin the PvE game...</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>So please. I don't want to /respec my 70 troubador as a 70 dirge or enchanter.   I just want my troubador to stay as she is now on live.  Troubs were asking for a little extra love before LU23... and now they've been hit twice.  it's just so disheartening.  I really love playing EQ2 and I'm not going to threaten to cancel my account. But I also don't plan on being someone's buffbot... no matter how much I like my guildies - there's just no fun in that.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P></FONT><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Kaelos_]

>I've only seen 5 lvl 70 Troubadors with my own eyes on Guk. I made a list for every time I inspected one so it's true. <font color="#cc0000">There isn't enough of us for sony to even care what becomes of this class. <font color="#ffffcc">You got that right.  Basically, I think that sony's master plan is to get ppl to stop playing certain classes so they can get rid of them and not have to worry about developing new and unique ideas/traits for those classes.  The less classes they have to develop, the less thinking they have to put into the game.  Wait a minute...oh wow.  I better keep the rest to myself... Anyway my troub is becoming a buff bot again.  he was my main from levels 1-50, then 50-60 he became my ranger's buff bot in raids. from 60-70 he became my main again.  but now he's going back to becoming a buff bot for raids while i play a brig for raids. </font></font><div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaelos_CZ wrote:<BR>>I've only seen 5 lvl 70 Troubadors with my own eyes on Guk. I made a list for every time I inspected one so it's true. <FONT color=#cc0000>There isn't enough of us for sony to even care what becomes of this class.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffffcc>You got that right.  Basically, I think that sony's master plan is to get ppl to stop playing certain classes so they can get rid of them and not have to worry about developing new and unique ideas/traits for those classes.  The less classes they have to develop, the less thinking they have to put into the game.  Wait a minute...oh wow.  I better keep the rest to myself...<BR>Anyway my troub is becoming a buff bot again.  he was my main from levels 1-50, then 50-60 he became my ranger's buff bot in raids. from 60-70 he became my main again.  but now he's going back to becoming a buff bot for raids while i play a brig for raids.<BR></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>in my opinion soe can only keep its players in the game if the game has a long time motivation, but being a buff bot has no long time motivation, so people will get bored and quit. but wait, soe doesnt have to be scared about people going to vanguard anymore since they bought it. <BR>once vanguard is out noone will start a bard because everyone will be scared that the same thing will happen to bards there too:smileywink:

[Kaelos_]

>once vanguard is out noone will start a bard because everyone will be scared that the same thing will happen to bards there too God it better not end up that way.  SOE is only supposed to handle the servers, billing and distribution.  Sigil is supposed to do the development and coding. <div></div>

[Vandileir]

<DIV>Too me this is the same thing that happened to my Guardian at the point of LU13. He was my main, I loved him. I pumped all my effort into making him, and how I played him, the best it could be. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enter LU13, class deystoyed. Troubadors reborn anew, so I take my alt, and race him to 60, love the class, love playing him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, here we are 11 updates later, and its now full cycle. Again my hard work is deystroyed, again my heart is broken over the complete and total destruction of my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? What is the justification for this? I want a developer in here and I want him now. I want an awnser. I want it right now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought about it some more today. Were not even being nerfed so to speak, or at least its not targeting us. The proc change, and this enchanter change.... Our suffering is a side effect of changes to other areas of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find that insulting. It's not that we were broken, its that other aspects of the game were, and now we pay the penalty for it. I want an explanation for this, and I want it right now. And I will make a post in this thread every day until someone in red comes in here and justifys this. Shut down the thread if you have to, I'll just make a new one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not hostile, this is not angry. This is someone in confusion over the actions of these game designers asking for simple clarification that at this point I feel this board is owed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why have you done this to our class? Why have you stripped away all the good and given us nothing redeeming in return. Why???</DIV>

[J]

<DIV>What angered me the most was realizing that even if the changes don't go live was that someone even entertained the idea of ever making such a change... took the time to write it in a set of patch notes (rough draft or not, they wrote it) and then someone actually took the time to code it for testing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That they had such a disregard for what people were accustomed to and enjoyed... sickened me. You can't call me impatient.. I've waited over a year for a response in the weaponsmith forums. I've been more than patient. No, I'm just realizing that they don't care.</DIV>

[Vandileir]

<P>Again, today, no response from a dev. And yet I see a post in the bruiser forums from Moorguard addressing there concern for the fact that there Mez now Shares a timer with there fear.</P> <P>Please, I ask again, someone please come and explain how my class was unbalanced, or game breaking.</P> <P>Please come and explain to me how a decrease in duration of 30 seconds on our Mez, and 7 minutes and 22 seconds on our Charm is justifiable.</P> <P>Please explain to me why our damage was drastically lowered after a proc change to game mechanics</P> <P>Please come and explain to me how you deternined that we are balanced now.</P> <P>I know all the developers must feel the class is balanced, for there has been nothing given in return to us for what we have lost. No posts, no comments, no notes. Nothing.</P> <P>This class must be the most flawless class in EQ2 since we dont require a second of your time.</P> <P>Please, awnser our concerns, or at least respond and tell us that were wrong, that the class is perfect and needs no further balancing.</P> <P> </P>

[Cygnu]

Moorguard plays a Bruiser in game so that probably explains why he shows more interest in that class than any other. Maybe there are no DEVs that actually play a troubadour. That would make sence actually because the recent changes show they have no idea what they are doing to class.Decided to play another character from now un and wait and see what happens the Troubadour. I just can't find the will to play him at the moment, which is a shame considering the months I put into the character. My only concern was that whatever class I pick theyt will dramatically change that one eventually. You'd think that after all this time the game would be a little stable by now. And so I re-loaded Everquest Live for a while. Halas ftw!<p>Message Edited by CygnusX on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[Mishrac]

<P>Well I am sad to say that I will prolly cancel aswell... I hate to do it since I have realy liked the game, but now I think that SOE have lost theyre focus and have no clue on what to do with the game. Thats what happens often when you produce a sequal in the movies so why should this be different.</P> <P>I have almost all the time addept to the changes but this is just silly and If you think about it its not that fun of a game anymore as it was in the begining.</P> <P>Lets hope they stay out of the Bard development in Vanguard... the game that I see as the only game to play this winter and will be the best online game on the market from what i have read.</P> <P>Kind Regards.</P>

[pikeymoose]

Note to self...."find out what class the influential employees at Sony ACTUALLY play, and roll that class"This is the best guarantee for playing a class that REMAINS fun. No fool would nerf the crap out of a class they actually have played........at least not to this extent(Troubador)Lets make a list of the "safe" classes. Bruiser has been mentioned above. Any others?(sure these classes will get tuneups, but never game breaking ones)Moose<p>Message Edited by pikeymoose on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:55 AM</span>

[Vandileir]

<P>Again, another day go's by without any word on our laments.</P> <P>Is it so hard to come in and read a few of the posts? Does it take so much time to click reply and let us know you at least heard us out?</P> <P>I certainly find a few minutes at work to post every now and then, yet I dont even work with this game for a living. I really dont understand why this is a challenge.</P> <P>Please let us know you care about every class in the game. I know were not popular, yet that is not our fault, its yours....</P>

[yykroo]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>"<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>... unless that's happening on PvP servers..."</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I play on the PvP servers. On the freeport side there are 20 Troubadors I have seen, mabey. I've noticed 5 or 6 on the Qeynos side so lets assume there are 45 in my opinion on the PvP servers. Troubs aren't broken there. The mana siphon abilities work a little better in PvP than they do in PvE but not much. I mean a wizard of my level can still nuke me to death and have mana left over in a 1 on 1. It works better in group battle when I can stab a healer with the mana reducing skills. That still doesnt account for these nerfs. My wife plays a fury......She pwns me. She can take out 3 Q'eers by herself. So we can safely say that it isnt the PvP thats causing these nerfs. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The best thing I have classwise PvP is that I can nearly alwats run away via evac or run speed.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mawie]

<blockquote><hr>CygnusX wrote:<b>Moorguard plays a Bruiser</b> in game so that probably explains why he shows more interest in that class than any other. Maybe there are no DEVs that actually play a troubadour. That would make sence actually because the recent changes show they have no idea what they are doing to class.Decided to play another character from now un and wait and see what happens the Troubadour. I just can't find the will to play him at the moment, which is a shame considering the months I put into the character. My only concern was that whatever class I pick theyt will dramatically change that one eventually. You'd think that after all this time the game would be a little stable by now. And so I re-loaded Everquest Live for a while. Halas ftw!<p>Message Edited by CygnusX on <span class="date_text">05-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:34 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> How do you know this? From what I gathered, most devs won't admit what they play to the players because they don't want people coming to the boards acting like the devs are trying to make some classes better than others because that is what they play. <div></div>

[J]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009" target=_blank><STRONG>This is the first post where MG mentioned being a brawler.</STRONG> </A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He has since posted in those forums regularly. </DIV><p>Message Edited by JBW on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[Mawie]

<blockquote><hr>JBW wrote:<div></div> <div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009" target="_blank"><strong>This is the first post where MG mentioned being a brawler.</strong> </a></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>He has since posted in those forums regularly. </div><p>Message Edited by JBW on <span class="date_text">05-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Well, fine, but in his defense, I'm sure he plays more than just tank classes.<div></div>

[J]

<DIV>That is a defense with which I concur. I was just providing you with the link =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the argument that many present, and has many sore, is his frequent posting in those class forums. People are yearning for at least a nod in their direction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had all that phrased differently.. but the HTML bug bit me.</DIV>

[Mawie]

<blockquote><hr>JBW wrote:<div>That is a defense with which I concur. I was just providing you with the link =)</div> <div> </div> <div>However, the argument that many present, and has many sore, is his frequent posting in those class forums. People are yearning for at least a nod in their direction. </div> <div> </div> <div>I had all that phrased differently.. but the HTML bug bit me.</div><hr></blockquote> No, no, I got what ya meant... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Honestly, until the past week or so, this board has been relatively quiet... mods and devs almost never had to come here. All of a sudden we saw a mod... maybe we'll see a dev. But I don't think screaming for them is the best tactic. I can imagine they won't answer ANY thread that demands one speak up. Not only do they actually have a forum rule against demanding a dev comment, but if devs were to answer questions whenever demanded to do so, everyone would be screaming for their attention. I say we wait for the changes to be live, and once we've all experienced the changes, we then post rational comments on it. Jumping in on the sky is falling bandwagon isn't helping anyone's cause. <div></div>

[Noguks]

<P>Just when I thought I would reach endgame level for the first time in my seven years of online gaming I hear about this troub nerf.  Level 69.6 and I do not have the motivation to even log on and break a seven year personal record.  Thats what this nerf on test has done to me.  It totally sucked the life out of my troub.  Yeah my guild's casters still love me in raids but I am a mere buff bot.  I play on the pvp server and I just plain suck withouth mez and charm.</P> <P>If they are going to kill off the class they might as well delete it all together and give people a free respec to another class of equal level.</P>

[SideshowBob]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBW wrote:<BR> <DIV>That is a defense with which I concur. I was just providing you with the link =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the argument that many present, and has many sore, is his frequent posting in those class forums. People are yearning for at least a nod in their direction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had all that phrased differently.. but the HTML bug bit me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, no, I got what ya meant... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Honestly, until the past week or so, this board has been relatively quiet... mods and devs almost never had to come here. All of a sudden we saw a mod... maybe we'll see a dev. But I don't think screaming for them is the best tactic. I can imagine they won't answer ANY thread that demands one speak up. Not only do they actually have a forum rule against demanding a dev comment, but if devs were to answer questions whenever demanded to do so, everyone would be screaming for their attention.<BR><BR>I say we wait for the changes to be live, and once we've all experienced the changes, we then post rational comments on it. Jumping in on the sky is falling bandwagon isn't helping anyone's cause.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is a <U>big</U> difference between "screaming" for Dev feedback, and begging for it. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. After a year or so I'm pretty sure that human nature kicks in and people start to get a tad frustrated. What you are seeing, on many levels, is how humans deal with frustration. And yes, not all of it has been butterflies and rainbows in the forum postings. Do you play a high level Troub? Do you understand where we are coming from? Do you understand how these changes affect the very core of our play?</P> <P>I say we make our concerns heard <STRONG><U>NOW</U></STRONG>, <EM>before</EM> content goes live, and has a chance to be modified, tweaked, or somehow miraculously salvaged <EM>BEFORE</EM> it is thrust upon the general population. THAT is what testing content is all about. THAT is what the Testing Feedback Forum is <EM>supposed</EM> to be about. However, given the complete lack of feedback from developers regarding the countless threads discussing the concerns of Troubadous relating to this most recent nerf (which *is* on the Test server), can you <EM>honestly</EM> not see why we as a group are becoming more and more vocal?</P> <P>No one is jumping on the "sky is falling bandwagon". People are responding to actual data provided by high level Troubadous on the Test server, and I have yet to see anyone posting irrational feedback about it. Nerfing our charm from a 6 second cast, 7 minute 30 second duration, 5 second recast -to- a 3 second cast, 8 (EIGHT?!) second duration, 60 (SIXTY???!!!) second recast is overkill no matter what kind of pretty sugar coating you attempt to put on it. The same with the change to mez, but only to a very slightly lesser degree. </P> <P>With those two key changes, please tell me what Troubs will bring to a group that is class-defining, that just about every other class in the game can't also bring to the table? If these changes DO go live, Troubs will be nothing more than a moving monkeytotem /afk /autofollow BUFFBOT. Is that the kind of play that you would wish on anyone?! Yeah, people will still love to have them in their groups and on their raids, but ooooooh nooooo, don't ask them to play one, that's for sure.  :smileysad:<BR></P>

[Mawie]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SideshowBob wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBW wrote:<BR> <DIV>That is a defense with which I concur. I was just providing you with the link =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the argument that many present, and has many sore, is his frequent posting in those class forums. People are yearning for at least a nod in their direction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had all that phrased differently.. but the HTML bug bit me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, no, I got what ya meant... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Honestly, until the past week or so, this board has been relatively quiet... mods and devs almost never had to come here. All of a sudden we saw a mod... maybe we'll see a dev. But I don't think screaming for them is the best tactic. I can imagine they won't answer ANY thread that demands one speak up. Not only do they actually have a forum rule against demanding a dev comment, but if devs were to answer questions whenever demanded to do so, everyone would be screaming for their attention.<BR><BR>I say we wait for the changes to be live, and once we've all experienced the changes, we then post rational comments on it. Jumping in on the sky is falling bandwagon isn't helping anyone's cause.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is a <U>big</U> difference between "screaming" for Dev feedback, and begging for it. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. After a year or so I'm pretty sure that human nature kicks in and people start to get a tad frustrated. What you are seeing, on many levels, is how humans deal with frustration. And yes, not all of it has been butterflies and rainbows in the forum postings. Do you play a high level Troub? Do you understand where we are coming from? Do you understand how these changes affect the very core of our play?</P> <P>I say we make our concerns heard <STRONG><U>NOW</U></STRONG>, <EM>before</EM> content goes live, and has a chance to be modified, tweaked, or somehow miraculously salvaged <EM>BEFORE</EM> it is thrust upon the general population. THAT is what testing content is all about. THAT is what the Testing Feedback Forum is <EM>supposed</EM> to be about. However, given the complete lack of feedback from developers regarding the countless threads discussing the concerns of Troubadous relating to this most recent nerf (which *is* on the Test server), can you <EM>honestly</EM> not see why we as a group are becoming more and more vocal?</P> <P>No one is jumping on the "sky is falling bandwagon". People are responding to actual data provided by high level Troubadous on the Test server, and I have yet to see anyone posting irrational feedback about it. Nerfing our charm from a 6 second cast, 7 minute 30 second duration, 5 second recast -to- a 3 second cast, 8 (EIGHT?!) second duration, 60 (SIXTY???!!!) second recast is overkill no matter what kind of pretty sugar coating you attempt to put on it. The same with the change to mez, but only to a very slightly lesser degree. </P> <P>With those two key changes, please tell me what Troubs will bring to a group that is class-defining, that just about every other class in the game can't also bring to the table? If these changes DO go live, Troubs will be nothing more than a moving monkeytotem /afk /autofollow BUFFBOT. Is that the kind of play that you would wish on anyone?! Yeah, people will still love to have them in their groups and on their raids, but ooooooh nooooo, don't ask them to play one, that's for sure.  :smileysad:<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're incredibly optomistic or naive...  Sony's history of testing and implementing has been such a letdown to the populace that there is no doubt in my mind that we will suffer the same treatment as MANY other classes.  If anything, SOE is quick to nerf, slow to fix and very uncommunicative throughout the entire process.  </P> <P>The most important thing I look for in a product is competence, whether it be a service or physical product.  Pushing out untested/broken content and making sweeping changes to the core of any class shows a lack of competence in development, testing and QA.  SOE has even commented on their "position within the industry" to explain away their bad service skills.  It's thoroughly unacceptable and people leave the game all the time as a result of it.  Sure, new people come into the game, but eventually, they will see the same problems if they choose to explore the world provided.  If they choose to take a passive role, then maybe they won't see as many of the issues, but that doesn't mean the issues are gone.</P>

[Nevari]

To get rid of the rumor a dev never posted on these boards go <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=2039&query.id=0#M2039" target=_blank>here</a> and <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=1616&query.id=0#M1616" target=_blank>here</a>. I let it open to you to decide if this is just a weird sort of twisted humor from my or the devs side.Yes the posts are over a year old <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Sanju]

Didn't you know? Troubs are perfect (except for spell procs, mez and charm, which were way over powered and have either been fixed or are being fixed next update) ... and we'll remain absolutely perfect until they nerf us again. <div></div>

[Mawie]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're incredibly optomistic or naive...  Sony's history of testing and implementing has been such a letdown to the populace that there is no doubt in my mind that we will suffer the same treatment as MANY other classes.  If anything, SOE is quick to nerf, slow to fix and very uncommunicative throughout the entire process.  </P> <P>The most important thing I look for in a product is competence, whether it be a service or physical product.  Pushing out untested/broken content and making sweeping changes to the core of any class shows a lack of competence in development, testing and QA.  SOE has even commented on their "position within the industry" to explain away their bad service skills.  It's thoroughly unacceptable and people leave the game all the time as a result of it.  Sure, new people come into the game, but eventually, they will see the same problems if they choose to explore the world provided.  If they choose to take a passive role, then maybe they won't see as many of the issues, but that doesn't mean the issues are gone.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm going more for optimist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see the problems of the past, but ultimately, people adapt. People cried when templars were nerfed. People cried when guardians were nerfed. People cried when rangers were nerfed. But I still see a ton of people playing those classes to this day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What it comes down to is that this is just a game, and I see no reason for people to complain. The best thing people can really do to show their dislike is quit.</DIV>

[Jaimster]

LOL February and March of last year... if you read the post above the dev's in the Top Ten one... it's a big Heroic Opportunity Issue - guess maybe that explains Coin Toss?

[Nevari]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:Didn't you know? Troubs are perfect (except for spell procs, mez and charm, which were way over powered and have either been fixed or are being fixed next update) ... and we'll remain absolutely perfect until they nerf us again. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Grrrrrrr you right! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That must be it... it's the master plan <span>:smileymad:</span>On a serious notes, I was so blunt to assume noone seriously would think I'm going to support the devs, did ya? But let the claims be set right. They never posted remains still not true. But WHAT this tells, especially the time, is a different topic.</div>

[Vandileir]

<P>*deleted*</P><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SideshowBob wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBW wrote:<BR> <DIV>That is a defense with which I concur. I was just providing you with the link =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the argument that many present, and has many sore, is his frequent posting in those class forums. People are yearning for at least a nod in their direction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had all that phrased differently.. but the HTML bug bit me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, no, I got what ya meant... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Honestly, until the past week or so, this board has been relatively quiet... mods and devs almost never had to come here. All of a sudden we saw a mod... maybe we'll see a dev. But I don't think screaming for them is the best tactic. I can imagine they won't answer ANY thread that demands one speak up. Not only do they actually have a forum rule against demanding a dev comment, but if devs were to answer questions whenever demanded to do so, everyone would be screaming for their attention.<BR><BR>I say we wait for the changes to be live, and once we've all experienced the changes, we then post rational comments on it. Jumping in on the sky is falling bandwagon isn't helping anyone's cause.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is a <U>big</U> difference between "screaming" for Dev feedback, and begging for it. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. After a year or so I'm pretty sure that human nature kicks in and people start to get a tad frustrated. What you are seeing, on many levels, is how humans deal with frustration. And yes, not all of it has been butterflies and rainbows in the forum postings. Do you play a high level Troub? Do you understand where we are coming from? Do you understand how these changes affect the very core of our play?</P> <P>I say we make our concerns heard <STRONG><U>NOW</U></STRONG>, <EM>before</EM> content goes live, and has a chance to be modified, tweaked, or somehow miraculously salvaged <EM>BEFORE</EM> it is thrust upon the general population. THAT is what testing content is all about. THAT is what the Testing Feedback Forum is <EM>supposed</EM> to be about. However, given the complete lack of feedback from developers regarding the countless threads discussing the concerns of Troubadous relating to this most recent nerf (which *is* on the Test server), can you <EM>honestly</EM> not see why we as a group are becoming more and more vocal?</P> <P>No one is jumping on the "sky is falling bandwagon". People are responding to actual data provided by high level Troubadous on the Test server, and I have yet to see anyone posting irrational feedback about it. Nerfing our charm from a 6 second cast, 7 minute 30 second duration, 5 second recast -to- a 3 second cast, 8 (EIGHT?!) second duration, 60 (SIXTY???!!!) second recast is overkill no matter what kind of pretty sugar coating you attempt to put on it. The same with the change to mez, but only to a very slightly lesser degree. </P> <P>With those two key changes, please tell me what Troubs will bring to a group that is class-defining, that just about every other class in the game can't also bring to the table? If these changes DO go live, Troubs will be nothing more than a moving monkeytotem /afk /autofollow BUFFBOT. Is that the kind of play that you would wish on anyone?! Yeah, people will still love to have them in their groups and on their raids, but ooooooh nooooo, don't ask them to play one, that's for sure.  :smileysad:<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well said. I'm not demanding anything at this point. I have already resigned to my fate as as a future Guardian.</P> <P>I simply would like someone from SOE, to come in here and edjucate me on the reasoning for these changes to troubadors.</P> <P>I also think it is fair that SOE please state offically where Bards are supposed to be in the DPS tier as we certainly can not keep up with our rogue and predator cousins. We have such miniscule utility over them now that it really isnt worth the loss of DPS at this point.</P> <P> I would also like SOE to flat out tell me they think Bards are balanced so that I can give up hope on them resurecting this class.</P> <P>I dont think these are unreasonable requests.</P>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're incredibly optomistic or naive...  Sony's history of testing and implementing has been such a letdown to the populace that there is no doubt in my mind that we will suffer the same treatment as MANY other classes.  If anything, SOE is quick to nerf, slow to fix and very uncommunicative throughout the entire process.  </P> <P>The most important thing I look for in a product is competence, whether it be a service or physical product.  Pushing out untested/broken content and making sweeping changes to the core of any class shows a lack of competence in development, testing and QA.  SOE has even commented on their "position within the industry" to explain away their bad service skills.  It's thoroughly unacceptable and people leave the game all the time as a result of it.  Sure, new people come into the game, but eventually, they will see the same problems if they choose to explore the world provided.  If they choose to take a passive role, then maybe they won't see as many of the issues, but that doesn't mean the issues are gone.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm going more for optimist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see the problems of the past, but ultimately, people adapt. People cried when templars were nerfed. <STRONG>People cried when guardians were nerfed</STRONG>. People cried when rangers were nerfed. But I still see a ton of people playing those classes to this day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What it comes down to is that this is just a game, and I see no reason for people to complain. The best thing people can really do to show their dislike is quit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You speak of which you can not understand more than me. I quit playing my guard because I felt the changes after LU13 were unacceptable. The class was horendous, boring, tedius to play. Everything I could do, another class could do better.</P> <P>They have made SUBSTANTIAL changes to Guards since LU13 that have brought the class back up to par in both playability and fun. So much so that with the nerfs to my Troub (Who I started maining because I got no enjoyment from my Guard) I will main my Guard once more.</P> <P>Guardians posted alot of constructive criticism once the shock wore off. Devs awnsered here and there, and slowly changes were made. I wish the same for the Troub Boards.</P> <P>This is the 3rd time one of my classes has gone through a MAJOR re-design. This is unnaceptable.</P>

[SideshowBob]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Clearly you prefer to assume.  What difference it makes to the original subject I am not sure, but I DO look at the other boards.  Either that or I'm not sure how I got the "Philosopher" title by only buring my nose in the Troub forums' hefty 8000 or so post count...</P> <P>Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of a Discussion Forum is to <EM>discuss</EM> issues with the game. What you are seeing are a lot of people who are discussing changes that were posted by people with <STRONG>first hand knowledge</STRONG> from the Test server. It's not like we are pulling these changes to Charm and Mez out our posteriors.</P> <P>And as someone else said, Sony's track record with pushig content through Test to Live, is not a good one.  Hence, my comments about how we need to make our concerns heard <U>NOW</U>, before the content goes live. WHY force the changes on the general population, when there is opportunity to modify the content while it still resides on the Test server? Isn't that what the Test server is for?  Isn't that what the Test Feedback Forum is for? Isn't that what the TroubadoUr Forum is for? Answer me that.</P> <P>Also answer my original question - Do you play a high level Troub? Do you understand what impact these changes will have to the very core of our play style?</P> <P>And I am not going to count out the possibility that this might actually be worse than we imagined. Sony's track record with the nerf bat is not an impressive one, nor does it allow much "optimism" in the face of reality/history. I saw what they did to Rangers. I saw what they did to Gaurdians. <EM>Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it</EM>. There is no need to force Troubs to live with a severe nerf on the Live servers where it generally takes weeks (if not months) for patches to fix the broken. Not when the fixes can be made on Test before it ever sees the light of day on Live.</P> <P>You're an optimist.  Good for you.  I'm a realist. And I refuse to sit idly by like some beaten animal while this nerf is still on the Test center.</P>

[J]

<P>I know you guys probably already saw it... but Moorguard posted this last night:</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>We value player feedback and read it every day on these boards and others, but to design the game through a series of polls would be a sure way to satisfy no one, and furthermore it would be an administrative nightmare. Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. Anyone looking for an MMO that matches every single ideal of what they'd like a game to be is going to be disappointed no matter where they turn.</FONT></EM></P> <P>Hence why I am adding my three votes and have cancelled my accounts. I just believe it is unfortunate that I am paid through July. </P>

[Mawie]

I play a 58 troubador. I am well aware of what impact this will have on us. With that said, there is a huge difference between saying "devs tell us what we want to know NOW" (they simply won't do it, trust me, not only do I post a lot, but I read alot, too... and more often then not, they don't jump when the players say jump) and coming in making one concise post about why the forthcoming changes are bad and what should be seen (rather than the eight that have popped up.) The templars and guardians each have one or two good stickied threads on what is wrong with their classes and what they'd like to see happen. I bet the devs read those. I say we try one. The nature of MMOs is that they change. If you don't like the change being presented, there are some really easy solutions. Yeah, they stink, but that's life. Again, wait until you've PERSONALLY tried the changes before coming here complaining. In closing, I ignore post counts when responding to people. I couldn't care less about yours or mine. I suggest some of you do the same when responding to me. K? <div></div>

[SideshowBob]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're incredibly optomistic or naive...  Sony's history of testing and implementing has been such a letdown to the populace that there is no doubt in my mind that we will suffer the same treatment as MANY other classes.  If anything, SOE is quick to nerf, slow to fix and very uncommunicative throughout the entire process.  </P> <P>The most important thing I look for in a product is competence, whether it be a service or physical product.  Pushing out untested/broken content and making sweeping changes to the core of any class shows a lack of competence in development, testing and QA.  SOE has even commented on their "position within the industry" to explain away their bad service skills.  It's thoroughly unacceptable and people leave the game all the time as a result of it.  Sure, new people come into the game, but eventually, they will see the same problems if they choose to explore the world provided.  If they choose to take a passive role, then maybe they won't see as many of the issues, but that doesn't mean the issues are gone.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm going more for optimist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see the problems of the past, but ultimately, people adapt. People cried when templars were nerfed. People cried when guardians were nerfed. People cried when rangers were nerfed. But I still see a ton of people playing those classes to this day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What it comes down to is that this is just a game, and I see no reason for people to complain. The best thing people can really do to show their dislike is quit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, ultimately people do adapt.  Does that make it right?  <BR>Do a large percentage of those people adapt by making totally new characters and (for al intents and purposes) waste months of time and effort they put into the nerfed-into-oblivion class? Does that make the nerf right? <BR>Did you stop to think that you see a ton of people playing those classes today because they finally put them back to where they can 'compete' with other similar classes in group as well as solo desireability/playability? Does that make the inital beating they took with the nerf bat right? <BR>Or perhaps the people that originally shelved those toons can finally come back to them now that these many months later they have been fixed? Does that make the nerfing they took initially right?</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>What it comes down to is that people invest a lot of time, energy and money in this game. And they have every right to complain when they see that all that hard work they poured into their character is about to be thoughtlessly smashed into tiny little bits by Sony's bootheel. They have every right to complain when their character is no longer a viable option in the scope of the game. They have every right to complain when they can no longer keep pace level-wise with their counterparts just because they play at odd hours or do not always have the luxury of being able to instantly find full groups to join - guildies or otherwise.</P> <P>The best way for people to show their dislike is through <STRONG>FEEDBACK</STRONG>. Quiting is nothing more than the opposite extreme of your rose-colored-glasses pacifism. It accomplishes very little because it instantly breaks the communication cycle. Adults discuss things and hopefully work out a compromise. Children pack up their bat and ball and go home. I prefer to try and deal with issues I see in a game I still love, as an adult. And apparently so do a lot of other people on this forum, fortunately. Now we just have to hope and pray that our voices and concerns do not fall on deaf ears.<BR></P>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBW wrote:<BR> <P>I know you guys probably already saw it... but Moorguard posted this last night:</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>We value player feedback and read it every day on these boards and others, but to design the game through a series of polls would be a sure way to satisfy no one, and furthermore it would be an administrative nightmare. Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. Anyone looking for an MMO that matches every single ideal of what they'd like a game to be is going to be disappointed no matter where they turn.</FONT></EM></P> <P>Hence why I am adding my three votes and have cancelled my accounts. I just believe it is unfortunate that I am paid through July.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry to see you go JBW. I enjoy your posts on the WS forums as well.</P> <P>Sadly, the only thing still holding me to this game is my RL friends in my guild. If not for them I would have canceled after LU13. <BR><BR>This is getting to be to much and my patients is growing thin. If SOE wants me to vote so badly I will be casting my vote for Blizzard if nothing changes. I do have friends that play WOW also, I just happen to not be a fan of the warcraft universe in general, but at this point I'm almost willing to let that go. <BR></P>

[Mawie]

I think that people should complain. I never said otherwise. I just wish that people would complain once they had experienced it for themselves. I think it makes the complaint more legit. Ya know what I mean? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also think one of the most powerful tools to show disdain for any product is to avoid it.  Yeah, it sucks after dedicating all this time and money into something to dump it, but it is bound to happen eventually anyway. I left SWG when EQ2 launched. I had spent a ton of time making my character awesome. It sucked to leave, but there was greener grass on the horizon. I love EQ2 and don't plan on quitting it any time soon, but I've always advocated people who are at the end of their ropes taking a break. If you really love and miss the game, you'll be back. <div></div>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<P>> I think that people should complain. I never said otherwise. I just wish <BR>> that people would complain once they had experienced it for themselves. <BR>> I think it makes the complaint more legit. Ya know what I mean?</P> <P>Frankly, no. </P> <P>I don't see why I have to experience an 8 second charm to know what it means. I think the time to complain about it starts now while it is on test. You are free to wait as long as you wish, though. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SideshowBob]

<P>No.  You are correct. You never directly said people shouldn't complain.  You certainly alluded to it when you stated that you see no reason for people to complain, because, silly them (yes that was added for what was not said, but what was certainly implied), it's "just a game".</P> <P>Sorry, I don't have the time, nor the inclination to level a Troub on Test server to the level my main is at now, in order to see how the changes will affect the character I have spent the past year and a half playing on the Live server.  So I am relegated to reading what those who do play on Test center report, and seeing how those changes differ from what is currently on Live. I guess I have to resort to my limited conceptualization skills, as do most other people in the same boat I am... But I can say that it probably doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how the nerfs to Charm and Mez will affect my Troub once it hits the Live server. </P> <P>I am very happy that you prefer to wait for the changes to hit the Live servers and experience them fist hand for yourself. I am sure a lot of people are of a similar opinion. That does not, however, invalidate the opinion of others that prefer to try and enact changes while the content still resides on the Test server by discussing the changes with those who do play on Test, as well as discussing the changes within the TEST FEEDBACK FORUM. It does not make the feedback they are providing any less legitimate.</P> <P>I'm also glad you feel that the best way to show disdain for a product is by avoiding it.  I'm sure to most people, myself included, that is exactly what we <EM>will </EM>do <U>if and when</U> we reach the end of our rope.  I, however, have not lost hope that our voices will be heard. Therefore I am not compelled to avoid it (aka: quit) just yet, so I will keep posting my feedback and hope some of the powers that be read it and consider it. I hope most of the other folks here in this forum feel the same way and are not quite ready to give up on their beloved Troubs, and am very saddened to read about those who <EM>have</EM> reached that point.</P> <P>Oh, and P.S. - I couldn't care less about anyone's post count. Just don't assume that I am uninformed and don't read other forums, and I won't assume that you spend too much time posting on them. People with one post tallied under their name can have just as valid of a point as someone with 10,000+ posts tallied under their name. Regardless, I am signing out on this discussion by agreeing to disagree on how best to engender change in this game. Any further disputation on that subject does nothing to further the original subject of contention: the state of the TroubadoUr as it sits on Test.</P>

[Nevari]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mawie wrote:/snip With that said, there is a huge difference between saying "devs tell us what we want to know NOW" (they simply won't do it, trust me, not only do I post a lot, but I read alot, too... and more often then not, they don't jump when the players say jump) and coming in making one concise post about why the forthcoming changes are bad and what should be seen (rather than the eight that have popped up.) The templars and guardians each have one or two good stickied threads on what is wrong with their classes and what they'd like to see happen. I bet the devs read those. I say we try one. /snip <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes you are right. I guess the thing that bugs me and others, I assume, is that we had this twice allready in the past. Well formed, constructive input giving posts outlined very well to the detail. More than a simple thanks for the feedback we didn't get.Quite opposite, we did get LU13.I applaud anyone picking the idea up again. I did once and discarded it after all these "changes" and getting the feeling regardless of what you did, it would run hollow and be meaningless.</div>

[Cuz]

<P>One of the issues is what if there's some good stuff for Troubs in TU24b? Then a lot of the complaining is rather moot. On the other hand, it would've been a smart move by the devs to atleast drop a message to the effect of "Don't worry, we're on it Troubs."</P> <P>A little communication to the troubs would have gone a long way I think. Alas...</P>