Where is SOE going with the Troub?

[Pathos311]

I am not sure what is going on with my class.  When DoF came out i though that we were going in the chanter direction but now since the nerf of our croud control abilty i cant quite figue out what we are supposed to be doing.  As far as i can tell i make people run fast.  I have never seen a dev or mod post in the troub board so hopefull one will choose one of the many posts and anser it.  I know one way to get attention to our board but dont really feel like spaming being [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doing things that shouldnt have to be done.  But it may be nessary to use a sledhammer to swat a fly soon.  Btw staryeyedelf STAY AWAY. <div></div>

[Plurke]

<P>i feel your pain guys you got hit now again with a nerf and it's a huge nerf now to balance to CC stuff i find it's just a totally over the board nerf and classes who use it a lot are screwed hell even chanters they can mezz a mob on raid but for what look at it is stupid for that nerf every other class doesn't make sense even nerf chanters solo and group stuff nicely done</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathos311 wrote:<BR>I am not sure what is going on with my class.  When DoF came out i though that we were going in the chanter direction but now since the nerf of our croud control abilty i cant quite figue out what we are supposed to be doing.  As far as i can tell i make people run fast.  I have never seen a dev or mod post in the troub board so hopefull one will choose one of the many posts and anser it.  I know one way to get attention to our board but dont really feel like spaming being [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doing things that shouldnt have to be done.  But it may be nessary to use a sledhammer to swat a fly soon.  Btw staryeyedelf STAY AWAY.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The new troubador description will be as follows if these changes go live:</P> <P><EM>Playing a Troubador you will have the best of both worlds (RL and ingame) because you will be able to:</EM></P> <P><EM>Buff your friends, particularly the one who will be using you to dualbox. At least your run speed will allow him to run away safely if he can't kill the mobs.</EM></P> <P><EM>Enjoy your life outside the game while you autofollow as the group's power and health regen.</EM></P> <P><EM>Never have to worry that you aren't doing your part to benefit your group as you will have plenty of time to type that there are adds incoming, even if you will no longer be able to do much about them.</EM></P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P>I'm a little irate...</P><p>Message Edited by Jaimster on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[StarryEyedElf]

<blockquote><hr>Pathos311 wrote:I am not sure what is going on with my class.  When DoF came out i though that we were going in the chanter direction but now since the nerf of our croud control abilty i cant quite figue out what we are supposed to be doing.  As far as i can tell i make people run fast.  <b>I have never seen a dev or mod post in the troub board</b> so hopefull one will choose one of the many posts and anser it.  I know one way to get attention to our board but dont really feel like spaming being [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doing things that shouldnt have to be done.  But it may be nessary to use a sledhammer to swat a fly soon.  <b>Btw staryeyedelf STAY AWAY</b>. <div></div><hr></blockquote>O.o<div></div>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>StarryEyedElf wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pathos311 wrote:I am not sure what is going on with my class.  When DoF came out i though that we were going in the chanter direction but now since the nerf of our croud control abilty i cant quite figue out what we are supposed to be doing.  As far as i can tell i make people run fast.  <b>I have never seen a dev or mod post in the troub board</b> so hopefull one will choose one of the many posts and anser it.  I know one way to get attention to our board but dont really feel like spaming being [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doing things that shouldnt have to be done.  But it may be nessary to use a sledhammer to swat a fly soon.  <b>Btw staryeyedelf STAY AWAY</b>. <div></div><hr></blockquote>O.o<div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh, sure, show up here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hey, people, stop complaining.  At least you can still hit PoM once every few minutes.  *Watches for next test patch*</div>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>StarryEyedElf wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pathos311 wrote:I am not sure what is going on with my class.  When DoF came out i though that we were going in the chanter direction but now since the nerf of our croud control abilty i cant quite figue out what we are supposed to be doing.  As far as i can tell i make people run fast.  <b>I have never seen a dev or mod post in the troub board</b> so hopefull one will choose one of the many posts and anser it.  I know one way to get attention to our board but dont really feel like spaming being [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doing things that shouldnt have to be done.  But it may be nessary to use a sledhammer to swat a fly soon.  <b>Btw staryeyedelf STAY AWAY</b>. <div></div><hr></blockquote>O.o<div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly, who gives 2cp whether a Mod posts in a forum or not?  What do mods have to do with the game?  If you answered "ZIPPO", "ZILCH", "NADDA", "ZERO", "NOTHING", etc, you win.</div>

[pikeymoose]

If we are able to make people run fast, at least bump up our run speed buff to 50%, or we might never get a group again.Moose

[Demoniac]

<DIV>It is not the first time sony nerf people. and It will be not the last time. you guys need to clam down and discuss things. I don't really like forum mod either. what they need to do is when a lot of wield things happens, they will delete your post and hide the truth. anything negtive to sony can NOT be posted here. that's their job. </DIV>

[Pathos311]

<div></div><div></div>Just a cry to get attention Crack i know mods dont have any real game power.   We are well behaved generaly so that is the first time i seen anyone that works for SoE post here.  I also put the mod part in just to see if our boards get read.  In PoF we lost alot of abilty to buff but but we did gain  PoM and Demolizing.  Our control abilities are about to get nerfed and like to see something to comsate for it.  We are not a overpowerd class by any means.  If we stay in the dark and agree when SoE takes our abilty away we will just become less and less usefull.  Personally I liked buffing my Gard to 100% advoidance.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Pathos311 on <span class="date_text">05-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:14 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Pathos311 on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:20 AM</span>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<div>It is not the first time sony nerf people. and It will be not the last time. you guys need to clam down and discuss things.  </div><hr></blockquote>No, but it is the 2nd time that the Troubador class has undergone a MAJOR change. Granted, this one isn't quite as sweeping as LU13, but when you combine the recent spell proc change with the control change ... it's pretty major for a lot of people (mostly solo and small group troubs).PS: I don't like to <b>clam</b> down, I prefer lobster.</div>

[Noguks]

<P>Since they nerfed troub to a point where the class has no purpose other than buff bot they really should merge dirge and troub and let the bards be able to at least be flexible to either be a caster buff bot or a melee buff bot.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Draks]

I guess we can rush in and take the HT or DT ....... than when the raid is over get rezzed

[Sanju]

Funny you mention that ...For the past 2 Halls of Seeing runs I've been the designated "trap bait". Happened the first time by accident (I was the 2nd person in the zone, and the first person in went LD, so all of the traps auto-aggro'd on me), but it worked well enough that we planned it that way the 2nd time.<div></div>

[FXDXArien]

<P><FONT size=2>We made our first run into Halls of Seeing last night and me being the only troub in the raid was the bait as well....hmm sounds like a conspiracy against the troubs....</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I love having mobs run through walls and one shot me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Cripple us and use us as bait. :/</FONT></P>

[Keyh]

I can see it now "LFG Troubadour to run us to <insert place where it takes a while to get there>." They get there and the Troub sees "You have been kicked from the group" GroupLeader tells you, "Thanks man."

[Trabbart]

<DIV>Ah its alll a big misunderstanding. Someone at SOE looked up Troubador and translated it with some big errors in it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" Jack of No-Trades,  Master of one"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since we DO wear a lot of no Trades and seem to be really good at safefall, they must have thought that the Troubador was just where he should be. Silly good ol' Soe.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ikikik, discoveres someone  just broke his air guitar.</DIV>

[Godzmodi]

im pretty [Removed for Content] off. where half enchanter/half scout right? our dps - total crap comapared our crowd control - going to be almost useless our buffs - procs for mages and dehate is the only thing seeming to go for us for raids.... thats ABOUT it. <div></div>

[Cynnigig]

<P>I couldn't understand the reasoning behind all the recent changes and what SOE had in mind with the troubadour, so I sat down and tried to come to an understanding. What seems very obvious is that there is a big difference between how SOE sees the troubadour and how we players see ourselves.</P> <P>1. Proc changes</P> <P>From a global view theses proc changes were the correct thing to do, because they normalize proc damage across all classes. Nonetheless, it would have been possible to tweak individual classes to compensate for the global change. This wasn't done to troubadours for one simple reason: we do too much damage. Due to most of our spells having short casting timers, we were procing too often, increasing our personal dps by unfair amounts (I have no explanation why a scout class should be outdamaged by tanks and sometimes healers). Now Aria only makes sense in a group situation.</P> <P>Reasons behind this change:</P> <P>- Reducing troubadour dps to where it should be.</P> <P>- Make grouping seem more desirable.</P> <P> </P> <P>2. Crowd control changes</P> <P>The intention behind the global crowd control changes may be a viable one, namely to stop groups from perma-stunning mobs. This really has little to do with the changes to our mezz and charm. These were dealt with separately and consciously reduced for a reason. With good tactics, excellent timing and lots of spare time, troubadours were able to take down mobs, which SOE does not want us to be able to fight solo or in non-standard groups. This applies to solo heroics, heroic groups and adds. Perma-mezz to take one mob out of the action or to recuperate is a thing of the past. Either we dps the mobs to death or they kill us first. Like most other classes. Adds cannot be taken out of the equation, they will kill us. Like most other classes. Taking on a group of three mobs, we now do not have the chance to charm one and park the other with mezz and pick off one after the other. We have 8s time to kill off the first mob, then we will be fighting 2 mobs, after 20s we will be fighting three. With our dps simply not possible.</P> <P>Many of us saw ourselves as half scout/ half enchanter, regularly charming mobs in solo and small group play (I would wager that across the board over 80% of troubadour playing time is spent in this manner). In addition to helping us overcome dangerous situations, it was a lot of fun to do. To SOE we are not enchanters, being able to charm mobs over extended peroids of time unbalances us in an unacceptable manner.</P> <P>Reasons behind this change:</P> <P>- Making it impossible to kill heroic and/or grouped mobs.</P> <P>- Taking away the enchanter part of the troubadour.</P> <P>- Make grouping seem more desirable.</P> <P> </P> <P>So, the real problem is, that we as troubadours had misconceptions about our class. All in all though, we were quite happy with the status quo, the only viable complaints mentioned our lack in personal dps. But it was something I felt most of us could live with, because we had an interesting class and with good playstyle could compensate. I would also go so far as to say we were a little proud of ourselves, because the troubadour was not an easy class to play. You had to work at it, think about tactics and always be on our toes.</P> <P>These changes hit us so hard, because it now comes to light, that this is not how SOE sees the troubadour at all. SOE does not want the highly individual and tactical playstyle of the troubadour. It brings many problems with it, especially concerning balance, because there is a wide margin between skilled troubadours and their not so skilled counterparts, as well as between troubadours and the more hack and slash classes. So SOE are taking the simplest solution and removing the tactical part of the troubadour and making him into a hack and slash class as well. In addition, SOE thinks the troubadour is purely a group and raid class. This has become quite evident with the latest patches. This can't really surprise us.</P> <P>To us present troubadours these changes - to bring the class back into line with SOE's vision - are a so radical change to the basics of the class, that for many of us quiting is the only viable solution. I am sure SOE has taken this into account and their market research has shown that more players have an interest in playing a buff bot class than an individual and tactical class. So, when we old-timers leave, there will be many new troubadours to take our place <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The leading raid guild on my server has a troubadour named Buff Bot. In the past few days my mind constantly turned to this name. Obviously here is someone who knows his place.</P> <P> </P> <P>Malazan</P> <P>70 Troubadour, Valor</P>

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynnigig wrote:<BR> <P>I couldn't understand the reasoning behind all the recent changes and what SOE had in mind with the troubadour, so I sat down and tried to come to an understanding. What seems very obvious is that there is a big difference between how SOE sees the troubadour and how we players see ourselves.</P> <P>1. Proc changes</P> <P>From a global view theses proc changes were the correct thing to do, because they normalize proc damage across all classes. Nonetheless, it would have been possible to tweak individual classes to compensate for the global change. This wasn't done to troubadours for one simple reason: we do too much damage. Due to most of our spells having short casting timers, we were procing too often, increasing our personal dps by unfair amounts (I have no explanation why a scout class should be outdamaged by tanks and sometimes healers). Now Aria only makes sense in a group situation.</P> <P>Reasons behind this change:</P> <P>- Reducing troubadour dps to where it should be.</P> <P>- Make grouping seem more desirable.</P> <P> </P> <P>2. Crowd control changes</P> <P>The intention behind the global crowd control changes may be a viable one, namely to stop groups from perma-stunning mobs. This really has little to do with the changes to our mezz and charm. These were dealt with separately and consciously reduced for a reason. With good tactics, excellent timing and lots of spare time, troubadours were able to take down mobs, which SOE does not want us to be able to fight solo or in non-standard groups. This applies to solo heroics, heroic groups and adds. Perma-mezz to take one mob out of the action or to recuperate is a thing of the past. Either we dps the mobs to death or they kill us first. Like most other classes. Adds cannot be taken out of the equation, they will kill us. Like most other classes. Taking on a group of three mobs, we now do not have the chance to charm one and park the other with mezz and pick off one after the other. We have 8s time to kill off the first mob, then we will be fighting 2 mobs, after 20s we will be fighting three. With our dps simply not possible.</P> <P>Many of us saw ourselves as half scout/ half enchanter, regularly charming mobs in solo and small group play (I would wager that across the board over 80% of troubadour playing time is spent in this manner). In addition to helping us overcome dangerous situations, it was a lot of fun to do. To SOE we are not enchanters, being able to charm mobs over extended peroids of time unbalances us in an unacceptable manner.</P> <P>Reasons behind this change:</P> <P>- Making it impossible to kill heroic and/or grouped mobs.</P> <P>- Taking away the enchanter part of the troubadour.</P> <P>- Make grouping seem more desirable.</P> <P> </P> <P>So, the real problem is, that we as troubadours had misconceptions about our class. All in all though, we were quite happy with the status quo, the only viable complaints mentioned our lack in personal dps. But it was something I felt most of us could live with, because we had an interesting class and with good playstyle could compensate. I would also go so far as to say we were a little proud of ourselves, because the troubadour was not an easy class to play. You had to work at it, think about tactics and always be on our toes.</P> <P>These changes hit us so hard, because it now comes to light, that this is not how SOE sees the troubadour at all. SOE does not want the highly individual and tactical playstyle of the troubadour. It brings many problems with it, especially concerning balance, because there is a wide margin between skilled troubadours and their not so skilled counterparts, as well as between troubadours and the more hack and slash classes. <FONT color=#ff0000>So SOE are taking the simplest solution and removing the tactical part of the troubadour and making him into a hack and slash class as well.</FONT> In addition, SOE thinks the troubadour is purely a group and raid class. This has become quite evident with the latest patches. This can't really surprise us.</P> <P>To us present troubadours these changes - to bring the class back into line with SOE's vision - are a so radical change to the basics of the class, that for many of us quiting is the only viable solution. I am sure SOE has taken this into account and their market research has shown that more players have an interest in playing a buff bot class than an individual and tactical class. So, when we old-timers leave, there will be many new troubadours to take our place <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The leading raid guild on my server has a troubadour named Buff Bot. In the past few days my mind constantly turned to this name. Obviously here is someone who knows his place.</P> <P> </P> <P>Malazan</P> <P>70 Troubadour, Valor</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>the problem for me is that removing the tactical part and turning it into a hack and slash class kills my motivation to play a troubadour. Soe seems to forget that i spent kinda some time to figure out what class i want to play. after looking at the differences and trying out some of the classes i finally decided to make a  troubadour, i played him for more than a year. now soe comes and fundamentally changes the class. and removing the tactical part kills the long time motivation for me. </P> <P>i dont have any problem with it if they make grouping more desirable because i dont like soloing too much anyway. </P> <P>in raids our buffs are nothing special, power regen? chanters have it too. health regen? zerkers have it too. defense skill buff? worthless the mt in my guild has it capped anyways. str and sta buff? other classes have that too. agi and int buff? doesnt affect anyone except myself. haste buff? the bruiser who is usually in same group as me loves it. otherwise worthless cause others in group are mages. aria? was nice pre lu#23 i still use it in raids but its not what it once was. elemntal reist buff? wizard, warden, conjurer and others have it too. so im left with aria, mental resist, and whatelse? nothing special.</P> <P>as it stands now bards dont have any special buffs, tier templar dps, crowd control is going to be nerfed to useless. so plz a dev come here and tell right away a good reason to keep playing my troubadour.<BR></P>

[Toskrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynnigig wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>2. Crowd control changes</P> <P>The intention behind the global crowd control changes may be a viable one, namely to stop groups from perma-stunning mobs. This really has little to do with the changes to our mezz and charm. These were dealt with separately and consciously reduced for a reason. With good tactics, excellent timing and lots of spare time, troubadours were able to take down mobs, which SOE does not want us to be able to fight solo or in non-standard groups. This applies to solo heroics, heroic groups and adds. Perma-mezz to take one mob out of the action or to recuperate is a thing of the past. Either we dps the mobs to death or they kill us first. Like most other classes. Adds cannot be taken out of the equation, they will kill us. Like most other classes. Taking on a group of three mobs, we now do not have the chance to charm one and park the other with mezz and pick off one after the other. We have 8s time to kill off the first mob, then we will be fighting 2 mobs, after 20s we will be fighting three. With our dps simply not possible.</P> <P>Many of us saw ourselves as half scout/ half enchanter, regularly charming mobs in solo and small group play (I would wager that across the board over 80% of troubadour playing time is spent in this manner). In addition to helping us overcome dangerous situations, it was a lot of fun to do. To SOE we are not enchanters, being able to charm mobs over extended peroids of time unbalances us in an unacceptable manner.</P> <P>Reasons behind this change:</P> <P>- Making it impossible to kill heroic and/or grouped mobs.</P> <P>- Taking away the enchanter part of the troubadour.</P> <P>- Make grouping seem more desirable.</P> <P>Malazan</P> <P>70 Troubadour, Valor</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is, Coercers will continue to have the power to take down heroic groups.  I've played a Coercer and Troubador, and it is much easier to take down three ^ mobs in a single encounter with a Coercer than with a Troub.  It's really trivial for the Coercer, and fast too, mainly because the Coercer charmed pet can tank, and the Troubador's can't.  I don't see anything in the proposed changes to reduce the Coercer's abilities to take down multimob heroic encounters.  So that means that SOE doesn't think that this is broken, since the Coercer will continue to have the power to do so.  So why nerf our ability to do it, especially since some of us chose Troubador purely because of the ability to charm?  I still tend to think the nerf is because of what they said - to reduce the ability of full groups to control encounters.  But there are ways to do that without destroying our ability to solo with charm.<BR>

[VericSauvari]

what bothers me the most is we continue to get no noticeable attention as a class from the devs...i wish someone higher up would acknowledge, deny or support our suggestions ideas. it honestly feels like we are bringing up these great ideas and we are ignored because we do not have as much of a presence in pure raw post numbers as other classes.

[pikeymoose]

I see a lot of "make grouping seem more popular" as reasons for the nerfs........Well this is going to backfire, because if Devs think there are not enough Troubadors around to boost groups, and they want to kill our sick soloing completely forcing us to group full time...NOT LIKELY.These changes will not make grouping more popular, they will make us reroll, or quit the game. I refuse to be FORCED to group becuase we are ultra gimped solo.I refuse to hang around in a group to keep agro off the caster, and supply some extra power. So if you want more people to play Troubadors and group...........make the lame [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class better and fun so more will carry the torch.Sony has it all wrong with these bully to group tactics.Moose

[Oneira]

<div></div>I am so depressed to read about these proposed changes.  I just leveled my Troubador on a PvP server to 20 and got my first charm spell.  Yay!  Then I find out about this. First of all, the other scout classes out DPS us by so much it's not funny.  Swashies and Rangers 2 levels below me can take me down without too much difficulty in PvP. And I don't need to any further encouragement to be in a group.  Are you kidding me?  Why don't you encourage Predators and Rogues to group!  They are far more effective soloers than we are. If these changes go into effect then we are a nothing class.  What do we have to make us stand out?  Run speed?  Buy a horse.  Mage de-aggro?   O wow.  We were made to be a part-time CC class on top of being a scout, and now the CC is going down the tubes.  8 seconds on a charm spell is totally and utterly ridiculous.  It is worse than nothing.  Ok so I can charm a mob with full functionality for a whole 8 seconds!  Yes, I can send it in to attack and a few seconds later the charm wears off and now I have two mobs attacking me....what am I stupid??? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Oneira on <span class=date_text>05-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>