The Troubador class

[vinterskugge]

<DIV> <DIV>With the recent nerf to proc damage, all troubadors took a DPS hit.  Whereas before, we felt like we were roughly where we should be, now it's hard to outdamage most fighters.  I know from the forums and guk.troubadors that a lot of us are unhappy with the class now and don't know where we fit in.</DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Troubador:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Troubadours play music that inspires strength and courage in the hearts of their companions.  They drain the power of their foes and use their songs to gain control of their opponents.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the description of our class, taken from the DoF manual.  It is post-combat revamp.  Looking at this, I see we're intended to specialise in three areas:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Troubadours play music that inspires strength and courage in the hearts of their companions</STRONG> - <EM>We cast buffs which make our group members more powerful.</EM></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>They drain the power of their foes</STRONG> - <EM>We drain the power pools of our enemies.</EM></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>and use their songs to gain control of their opponents</STRONG> - <EM>we have a charm and a mez.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, power draining doesn't do anything.  At all.  Ever.</DIV> <DIV>Secondly, with the upcoming changes to control spells, enchanters will have more ways to be of use in both raid and group situations.  Fine, but when control spells are meant to be one of <EM>our</EM> class defining abilites as well, why are we not getting the same treatment.  We could just carry on with the DPS role we used to have, but oh wait....you nerfed that!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So from that class description, the second line is obsolete.  Meaning that our current role is to cast buffs.  That's right, according to our class description, we are buff bots with some usless power drains and a subpar mez!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another area I have a problem with are HOs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During KoS beta, EVERY piece of feedback I saw about bard achievements included how utterly useless Coin Toss was.  And instead of giving us something useful, you changed Bard's Luck, the mandatory achievement, to also affect HOs.  If you're so sure bards should be the masters of HOs, then can you please completely revamp them?  Because right now, there is absolutely no point in using them whatsoever.  Seriously, I'd rather Bard's Luck gave me a +5 modifier to my fishing skill!  The HO system had a lot of potential, but you need to do something to it so we'll actually bother using it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The troubador community <STRONG>really</STRONG> needs some word from the devs that we're at least being looked at.  A lot of us feel neglected and unimportant, and that the devs don't care.  The <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/tracker?user.id=103" target=_blank>first page</A> of Moorgard's tracker shows a lot of posts in the bruiser class forums, whereas I've never even seen a dev post here.  Please help us, let us know if you're going to make us feel useful once more.</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Emerix]

<DIV>You should mention that we are supposed to be tier 3 damage . And not Tier Templar damage =)</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Seriously, I'd rather Bard's Luck gave me a +5 modifier to my fishing skill!  </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>om..QFE. this comment made my day.<BR></P>

[Dystopya]

<div></div>Well written. I hope to god that someone important ignores the fact that this forum is hugely underpopulated and comes and sees it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Might wanna chance the subject too so that in case someone does stop by, its something that theyll read <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dystopya on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emerix wrote:<div>You should mention that we are supposed to be tier 3 damage . And not Tier Templar damage =)</div><hr></blockquote>You see that is just how you are playing the troubador.  Pre-proc nerf I was doing 800+ single target EXTREMELY consistently.  Also, post-proc nerf Im still doing 700+ very very consistently.  On AE encounters (mobs of 3 or more) easily getting over 1k no challenge pre and post proc nerf.  Try out differnt techniques, because we can do some pretty nasty dps is played right.</div>

[911GT3]

Your correct about power drain doing nothing, on pve server. But on a pvp server power drain is a great thing to have and I highly doubt they are going to make 2 different versions of our spells for pvp and pve. <div></div>

[Rampagious]

I would love for them to drop all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] power drains off of our spells - and either add more damage to them, or change them to like the essence line, and give the power to us.  SoE had to change their game so that epics have crazy power regen just so you couldn't drain them, what is their logic in STILL having us have power drains?  People will argue they are good for exp groups....if a mob is alive long enough to be 100% power drained, your group is pathetic.<div></div>

[Sile]

Killing our class one LU at a time.  Never seen a dev post here or even acknowledge any issues we have.  All the feedbacks feel like time wasted.<div></div>

[Trabbart]

<P>Good post.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sadly devs have proven to be deaf to our screams, songs, howls and pleas. Its prolly because in cyberspace noone hears you scream. </P> <P> </P> <P>But i like the against all odds approach so lets wait.............................................. .................................................. ......</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Ikikik, Splitpaw</P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Rampagious wrote:</P> <P>You see that is just how you are playing the troubador.  Pre-proc nerf I was doing 800+ single target EXTREMELY consistently.  Also, post-proc nerf Im still doing 700+ very very consistently.  On AE encounters (mobs of 3 or more) easily getting over 1k no challenge pre and post proc nerf.  Try out differnt techniques, because we can do some pretty nasty dps is played right.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That really has a lot to do with spells, gear and achievements.  Personally, I can do pretty good DPS, but I use two fabled T7 dw weapons and have everything except Raxxyls at master.  I could do a lot more if I'd taken the STA/AGI lines.  But we should be T3 dps, not "T3 dps as long as we have all masters and uber gear and took the stamina line".

[Rampagious]

I can definately agree with that scaf<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>Just killed Pantrilla and Vraksakin - on both I parsed at a little over 500dps.  And on both dissonant note did less than 1% of that dps.  The girdle hasn't gone off at all since the patch hit.  With my current achievement setup, there is no way I can get any higher dps than that, and I'm one of the best geared troubs around.  Most troubadors will not be able to even hit that.  It's not right that the only way to get a DPS level similar to that of Crac or Ramp is to sacrifice our utility levels and take the stamina line.  These are the sort of numbers we should be putting out anyway.</DIV>

[Crombie]

I completely agree with the original post.  Our class has abilities that have little to no effect (or recent or soon to be nerfed effects) that need to be addressed.  Can only hope a dev mistakendly clicks the troubador link at the bottom of the class section and stumbles into some of the posts...

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div> <div>Just killed Pantrilla and Vraksakin - on both I parsed at a little over 500dps.  And on both dissonant note did less than 1% of that dps.  The girdle hasn't gone off at all since the patch hit.  With my current achievement setup, there is no way I can get any higher dps than that, and I'm one of the best geared troubs around.  Most troubadors will not be able to even hit that.  It's not right that the only way to get a DPS level similar to that of Crac or Ramp is to sacrifice our utility levels and take the stamina line.  These are the sort of numbers we should be putting out anyway.</div><hr></blockquote>That is the exact reason why I was sort of against going stamina line.  But instead - I chose to go stamina and wisdom that way I could at least still give DKTM.  While I don't have as powerful of a str/sta buff or a group AE immune, I still find it to be a more happier choice, if you will, on my part.</div>

[Nevari]

Very well said indeed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Maestroofsong]

<DIV>I honestly think that SOE is trying to trim the size of the troub community. Pre-DoF when troubs were fun to play and very useful, I'm sure there were many more of us. Anyone else feel that way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Sonnica, 70, Nektulos</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <DIV>You should mention that we are supposed to be tier 3 damage . And not Tier Templar damage =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You see that is just how you are playing the troubador.  Pre-proc nerf I was doing 800+ single target EXTREMELY consistently.  Also, post-proc nerf Im still doing 700+ very very consistently.  On AE encounters (mobs of 3 or more) easily getting over 1k no challenge pre and post proc nerf.  Try out differnt techniques, because we can do some pretty nasty dps is played right.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Out of curiousity are you looking at DPS or EXTDPS ? I am  always trying to improve my own dps however pre-23 I hit a cap of around 400-500dps consistantly. Sure when I am in t6 zones I can make my dps skyrocket however thats to be expected. I am not lacking in spells (m1 for most of my spells) and make sure to keep kians up and am fairly effecient when it comes to keeping my offensive attacks going with very little delay..</P> <P> Do you perhaps have an eq2players.com detailed bio so i could perhaps check out the significant gear/stat differences?</P> <P> </P>

[Rampagious]

<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106</a>there is a link to my char bio<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106" target=_blank></a><div></div>

[vinterskugge]

He's using the Qeynos Rapier and Fortissimo at 8 points.  The rest is using our skills at the right time and group setup.<BR>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rampagious wrote:<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106</A><BR>there is a link to my char bio<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=353667106" target=_blank></A> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>tyvm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rampagious]

np<div></div>

[Mimsi]

<P>Thanks for the consolidated post Scafloc, hopefully someone out there in Dev land will give us the benefit of their vision for our much loved class, as atm there are many (well documented) gaps.</P> <P>And I do recall one dev post in the last couple of years, I shall try to search it out.</P> <P>Mim</P> <P>NB Ramp, I note your int at 280 and str at 400 (ish): diametrically opposed to what I would call the 'advised' troub build. But, if you're getting such staggering dps (mines about 280 maxed ;' ) I think I will refocus. Btw, whats the rating on the qeynos weapon? (im not an advanced member and can't click it).</P> <P>edit: just noticed Scaffs is the same int/str balance direction too </P> <P>Message Edited by Mimsi on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Mimsi on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 AM</span>

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>With the recent nerf to proc damage, all troubadors took a DPS hit.  Whereas before, we felt like we were roughly where we should be, now it's hard to outdamage most fighters.  I know from the forums and guk.troubadors that a lot of us are unhappy with the class now and don't know where we fit in.</DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Troubador:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Troubadours play music that inspires strength and courage in the hearts of their companions.  They drain the power of their foes and use their songs to gain control of their opponents.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the description of our class, taken from the DoF manual.  It is post-combat revamp.  Looking at this, I see we're intended to specialise in three areas:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Troubadours play music that inspires strength and courage in the hearts of their companions</STRONG> - <EM>We cast buffs which make our group members more powerful.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>They drain the power of their foes</STRONG> - <EM>We drain the power pools of our enemies.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>and use their songs to gain control of their opponents</STRONG> - </FONT><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>we have a charm and a mez</FONT>.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, power draining doesn't do anything.  At all.  Ever.</DIV> <DIV>Secondly, with the upcoming changes to control spells, enchanters will have more ways to be of use in both raid and group situations.  Fine, but when control spells are meant to be one of <EM>our</EM> class defining abilites as well, why are we not getting the same treatment.  We could just carry on with the DPS role we used to have, but oh wait....you nerfed that!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So from that class description, the second line is obsolete.  Meaning that our current role is to cast buffs.  That's right, according to our class description, we are buff bots with some usless power drains and a subpar mez!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another area I have a problem with are HOs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During KoS beta, EVERY piece of feedback I saw about bard achievements included how utterly useless Coin Toss was.  And instead of giving us something useful, you changed Bard's Luck, the mandatory achievement, to also affect HOs.  If you're so sure bards should be the masters of HOs, then can you please completely revamp them?  Because right now, there is absolutely no point in using them whatsoever.  Seriously, I'd rather Bard's Luck gave me a +5 modifier to my fishing skill!  The HO system had a lot of potential, but you need to do something to it so we'll actually bother using it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The troubador community <STRONG>really</STRONG> needs some word from the devs that we're at least being looked at.  A lot of us feel neglected and unimportant, and that the devs don't care.  The <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/tracker?user.id=103" target=_blank>first page</A> of Moorgard's tracker shows a lot of posts in the bruiser class forums, whereas I've never even seen a dev post here.  Please help us, let us know if you're going to make us feel useful once more.</DIV></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if we get all of the things i changed to red in a good quality then i dont care about dps to be honest. <BR>

[Sanju]

Power drains in PvE are completely useless. I agree with that 100%. They need to address this. My dps is still very good, though, and I didn't take the Stamina line. Of course, I am well geared, and lack only 4 Masters (only 1 of which, Steal Essense, would affect my dps).  I can still parse over 1k on a 3-mob raid encounter, and get 600-800 on single target, but group setup has a lot to do with it. I certainly wouldn't complain about a base dps increase.  (My base stats are also generally more Str over Int. Last night buffed up I had 800 Str and around 400 Int (I probably could have cancelled Raxxyl's and used Daelis' to even myself out)).I do agree that the Bards need a more active role (in raiding especially, where we very rarely (read: never) use our crowd control). We ARE now buff bots, and that sucks.<div></div>

[Sanju]

PS: For anyone that wants to chime in with "if you wanted a dps class, re-roll an [insert dps class here]" ... once you have all of your buffs at Master I (as I do), dps is the <b>only </b>thing that separates one troub from the next. I can't buff any better than I do now, as they are all passive abilities.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR>Power drains in PvE are completely useless. I agree with that 100%. They need to address this.<BR><BR>My dps is still very good, though, and I didn't take the Stamina line. Of course, I am well geared, and lack only 4 Masters (only 1 of which, Steal Essense, would affect my dps).  I can still parse over 1k on a 3-mob raid encounter, and get 600-800 on single target, but group setup has a lot to do with it. I certainly wouldn't complain about a base dps increase.  (My base stats are also generally more Str over Int. Last night buffed up I had 800 Str and around 400 Int (I probably could have cancelled Raxxyl's and used Daelis' to even myself out)).<BR><BR>I do agree that the Bards need a more active role (in raiding especially, where we very rarely (read: never) use our crowd control). We ARE now buff bots, and that sucks.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My dps is slightly lower than yours, (500-700 single target on average), but I think that's probably all group setup (no inquisitor <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</P> <P>A couple of weeks ago the princes popped and we had no enchanter on.  I was able to keep all three adds mezzed for the entire duration of the fight with no breaks.  The problem is that we're still second choice for this situation.  If there'd been an enchanter on it would have been a different story, and with the control changes this gap will only widen.<BR></P>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mimsi wrote:<BR> <P>your int at 280 and str at 400 (ish): diametrically opposed to what I would call the 'advised' troub build. But, if you're getting such staggering dps (mines about 280 maxed ;' ) I think I will refocus. Btw, whats the rating on the qeynos weapon? (im not an advanced member and can't click it).</P> <P>edit: just noticed Scaffs is the same int/str balance direction too</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>EQ2 players shows unbuffed stats.  With Raxxyls and Daelis, my STR is 449 and my INT is 468.  I use potions and get raid buffs with get these even higher.  For a while, I focussed on INT and could it well past the cap with only Daelis and gear, but I've started trying to even my stats out a bit and get more STA.  Usually on a raid I don't waste conc on Daelis, and my STR and INT are both capped anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Cutlass is a 60.6 damage rating.</DIV>

[Mimsi]

<DIV>Ah yeah that makes sense, cheers Scaf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mim</DIV>

[Sanju]

Group setup does play a big role, so I imagine that you're right.Another thing that should be mentioned ... in addition to power drains being worthless ... we're just not very good at it. We only have 2 songs now with power drain components to them (since they changed the 'Essence' line) -- Dancing Blade, and Lore's. That's hardly anything to be excited about if that's one of our primary, defining roles.<div></div>I do think our CC is decent. We shouldn't be the best at it. I wouldn't mind a good stun, though. Seems to be one thing we're missing (since we have mez, charm, interrupt, crappy stifle), other than cheap shot (which all scouts have, and doesn't affect epics). Add that onto Lore's or Dancing Blade instead of the worthless power drain, maybe.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR>PS: For anyone that wants to chime in with "if you wanted a dps class, re-roll an [insert dps class here]" ... once you have all of your buffs at Master I (as I do), dps is the <B>only </B>thing that separates one troub from the next. I can't buff any better than I do now, as they are all passive abilities.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you cant't buff any better than you do now because they are all passive abililtes? yes thats true,  but why not change that? i mean troubadours are a support class and as such it would maybe be good to make buffing less passive and push it more towards active. i do know thta as a part of the dumbing down to compete with wow they changed most buffs to have duration until canceled, but why not exclude bardes from that ? </P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>No.  Please don't do that.  Refreshing buffs every few minutes doesn't take skill and isn't fun.  It's just annoying.</DIV>

[Rampagious]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:PS: For anyone that wants to chime in with "if you wanted a dps class, re-roll an [insert dps class here]" ... once you have all of your buffs at Master I (as I do), dps is the <b>only </b>thing that separates one troub from the next. I can't buff any better than I do now, as they are all passive abilities.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Sad, but so true <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Why on earth would SoE make a bard class - and not have song (buff) modifiers?  Flat out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] :l</div>

[Belisarius]

I started some big troub issues post about 6 mo ago.. I tried and pushed for improvments to the class they never came. I quit, I came back and am making a quick push to 70 and I am getting very ticked off AGAIN. I really like EQ2, but the way they are treating this class is making it hard for me to even want to play.I'm not quiting my Troub, ill quit EQ again before I reroll, im just hoping they fix this or make some headway before I get to burnt out to play again.I dont even see guilds wanting Troubs anymore....our one shinning spot in the raid group has gone now.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>No.  Please don't do that.  Refreshing buffs every few minutes doesn't take skill and isn't fun.  It's just annoying.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i know  but buffs are one of the main aspects of  bards, so they should be changed somehow to more challneging and intersting

[thorvang]

until some live update (could have been #9) all troub buffs had a duration between 3 and 10 minutes. coupled with insane aggro for rebuffing. troubas hadn't any good deaggros (just the scout 100ish one and a broken serene serenade which did -40 threat).not fun! you're in a long lasting fight (read: raid) and your buffs run out. no chance to lower your aggro so you either don't recast things like manasong or swan song (defense song back then) and your only use for the rest of the raid is lame dps or recast and die 50% of the time.i'm glad this had been changed.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>nice thread.</P> <P>The point about HO's isn't clear enough thou.  Anyone using HO's past level about level 30 is wasting their time and energy hitting the key and using the bit of mental energy to figure out how to complete it.  Successfull HOs on a level 70 raid aren't going to make or break the raid.  HOs can and will mess up many soloing classes.</P> <P>As for troubador DPS - what I wonder is why are all the fighter classes able to get tier 2 and tier 1 output?  I mean a bruiser using default attack can hit 1.2k dps... seesh (on a 4 minute epic fight.)</P> <P> </P>

[vinterskugge]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>vinterskugge wrote:</P> <P>Secondly, with the upcoming changes to control spells, enchanters will have more ways to be of use in both raid and group situations.  Fine, but when control spells are meant to be one of <EM>our</EM> class defining abilites as well, why are we not getting the same treatment.  We could just carry on with the DPS role we used to have, but oh wait....you nerfed that!.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>- Troubador: Lullaby - Decreased duration and increased reuse timer to 20s.</P> <P>- Troubador: Bria's Entrancing Sonnet - Now works as a very short-term charm. Reduced casting time to 3s. Has full use of pet commands. Duration greatly reduced. Removed concentration costs. Increased reuse time to 60s.</P> <P> </P> <P>Woo!  Thanks SOE!  You bunch of clueless [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.</P>

[blutste]

/sarcasmthats the right way, SOE. we are sooo overpowered. i think, troubas should go with Clotharmor, because the 8s Charm-Pet could tank for us. /sarcasm off<div></div>

[Cynnigig]

<P>I'm trying to see some good in the changes of the past week. Simply because I really like playing my troubadour. Our dps was never much of an issue to me, because I loved the tactical possibilities we had with all our utility. The crowd control capabilities was one of the reasons I chose this class. Taking this away feels to me like if they took away taunts from a tank or healing from a priest. Yes, maybe to others crowd control was never a major part of the troubadour, to me it was.</P> <P>I do think they will compensate us for all these nerfs. But what will that be? More or different utility? I hardly think so, it will probably be more personal dps. Seriously, if we wanted more dps, we would have picked a different class in the first place. Increasing our dps, but reducing our utility makes us a third-rate ranger or assassin. Is this what we want to be?</P> <P>All those past posts come to mind, where troubadours reassured those complaining about difficulties at lower levels. At level 50, when you get mezz, everything will get better, they said. Well, goodbye to that hope.</P>

[thorvang]

pre-lu13 the troub played a core role in groups (or at least raids): buffing the main tank's defense and stamina into spheres that couldn't even slightly reached without a troub. this role has been kinda boring cause you were stuck to use the same 4 buffs everytime, but it worked and the troub role has been clear.then the combat revamp came and the troub's role got changed. we changed to damage dealer buffers, casters mostly. and our mezz and charm abilities were changed so they were of some great use.now mezz and charm will be gimped. master of nothing at it's best.so how does SOE see the troub? our main purpose is to enhance casters damage by some proc and melee damage by str and haste and all that's left is trying to push our dps to the top? that's pretty lame, i want some utility.if SOE don't want to give troubs cc abilities, thus utility, at least enhance our buffs to be the best available buffs ingame.examples:- our haste buff isn't any better than what monks can give groups. best song at m1 level is 26%. push it to 30 or 40%- berserkers are able to buff more str than troubs, only with the right AA our str/sta song buffs more. enhance it, make the AA more powerful.- we are able to buff ourself some serious int. why not change it to a group buff? reduce the int amount but make it a group buff.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:32 PM</span>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:<font color="#ffffff">pre-lu13 the troub played a core role in groups (or at least raids): buffing the main tank's defense and stamina into spheres that couldn't even slightly reached without a troub. this role has been kinda boring cause you were stuck to use the same 4 buffs everytime, but it worked and the troub role has been clear.</font><font color="#ff0000">thats what i want back, sure it would need some tweaks to get more intersting, but anyways, buffs are the key to the class troubadour so with some tweaking to the way buffs work i guess they could add in some challenge and fun with buffs /sarcasm offsoe will remove all buffs from bards in lu#25 anyway to have them at tier templar dps without any crowd control and removing all our buffs would be right thing to get us all to quit</font>then the combat revamp came and the troub's role got changed. we changed to damage dealer buffers, casters mostly. and our mezz and charm abilities were changed so they were of some great use.now mezz and charm will be gimped. master of nothing at it's best.so how does SOE see the troub? our main purpose is to enhance casters damage by some proc and melee damage by str and haste and all that's left is trying to push our dps to the top? that's pretty lame, i want some utility.if SOE don't want to give troubs cc abilities, thus utility, at least enhance our buffs to be the best available buffs ingame.<font color="#ff0000">yes, our buffs should be the best one's througout the game, but forget that becasue if classes would be more unique then eq2 would become more challenging and that wouldnt match the trend of dumbing down to attract the wow noobs.</font>examples:- our haste buff isn't any better than what monks can give groups. best song at m1 level is 26%. push it to 30 or 40%- berserkers are able to buff more str than troubs, only with the right AA our str/sta song buffs more. enhance it, make the AA more powerful.- we are able to buff ourself some serious int. why not change it to a group buff? reduce the int amount but make it a group buff.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class="date_text">05-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[VericSauvari]

<blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:<font color="#ffffff">pre-lu13 the troub played a core role in groups (or at least raids): buffing the main tank's defense and stamina into spheres that couldn't even slightly reached without a troub. this role has been kinda boring cause you were stuck to use the same 4 buffs everytime, but it worked and the troub role has been clear.</font><font color="#ff0000">thats what i want back, sure it would need some tweaks to get more intersting, but anyways, buffs are the key to the class troubadour so with some tweaking to the way buffs work i guess they could add in some challenge and fun with buffs /sarcasm offsoe will remove all buffs from bards in lu#25 anyway to have them at tier templar dps without any crowd control and removing all our buffs would be right thing to get us all to quit</font>then the combat revamp came and the troub's role got changed. we changed to damage dealer buffers, casters mostly. and our mezz and charm abilities were changed so they were of some great use.now mezz and charm will be gimped. master of nothing at it's best.so how does SOE see the troub? our main purpose is to enhance casters damage by some proc and melee damage by str and haste and all that's left is trying to push our dps to the top? that's pretty lame, i want some utility.if SOE don't want to give troubs cc abilities, thus utility, at least enhance our buffs to be the best available buffs ingame.<font color="#ff0000">yes, our buffs should be the best one's througout the game, but forget that becasue if classes would be more unique then eq2 would become more challenging and that wouldnt match the trend of dumbing down to attract the wow noobs.</font>examples:- our haste buff isn't any better than what monks can give groups. best song at m1 level is 26%. push it to 30 or 40%- berserkers are able to buff more str than troubs, only with the right AA our str/sta song buffs more. enhance it, make the AA more powerful.- we are able to buff ourself some serious int. why not change it to a group buff? reduce the int amount but make it a group buff.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class="date_text">05-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote> I would like to be seen as an equal alternative to a maintank group bard  in a raid. None of this AFK bot because of flower power, mana bot  and proc monkey (which barely procs now as it is.) Some things i would like to see in the next update... - Turn Requiem into a short term reflection/absorbion spell like spell shield, stop making it a 'i hope it will go off and work' to 'mob is casting! put it up!!!'  Right now unless i am in PvE verses mobs that dot i will never use this spell other then for the amusement of seeing the spell animation. - Make Raxxyls buff something decent, or maybe str/wis/int/sta/agi at a reduced number (50pts at t7 would even be ideal.) We are a caster buffer yet we do not buff int? - If we are caster bots give us more caster/ranged attacks. - Turn all our mana drains to mana taps like spells that dirges have. - Take away the conc for our self buff, why is our buff complete skewed toward int..why not a more balanced buff towards  int, str and agi as those are our primary stats. Are you telling me a bard who can buff someone else in str cannot buff themselves for str? Sounds like a low self esteem problem <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - If we are mini-chanters and part of our duty is crowd control... why do we only have cheap shot for stun? - If we buff casters why is our haste song for melee speed and not casting times? Our class seems half [Removed for Content] thought out and its really starting to irk me. <div></div>

[Trabbart]

<DIV> <P>On may 6th i wrote this in response"</P> <P> </P> <P> Good post.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sadly devs have proven to be deaf to our screams, songs, howls and pleas. Its prolly because in cyberspace noone hears you scream. </P> <P> </P> <P>But i like the against all odds approach so lets wait.............................................. .................................................. ......"</P> <P> </P> <P>......7 days later.......still waiting on some official  response...........</P> <P> </P> <P>I wish they put some SOE in cigarettes, best way to quit an addiction.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ikikik, (discovers he doesnt even have instruments to pack up)</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Trabbart on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 PM</span>

[Kaelos_]

seems like Sony's master plan is to get troubs to either quit, roll another toon, or convert to Dirge so they can get rid of the troub class and just have 1 bard class. My Troub feels old and tired.  I feel like my troub is in the woods with a dev holding his gun at my head and a bullet engraved with "we will not base changes on PVP" <div></div>