Increasing Bard dps- how about poison?

[Narben Von Nacht]

There's been some debate about Bard dps, most people seem to feel it's a little on the low side, while some are happy. However the upcoming change to spell procs is certainly going to hurt us.How would people feel about being given access to poisons? It would give us a boost yet it would still be limited due to the costs involved. It might be an option instead of an across the board increase in all our damage abilities.Opinions?<div></div>

[Dizank]

<P>Well I cant see them letting bards use poisons as im sure the other scouts would then cry foul since we would have buffs + possible better dps then before.</P> <P>If they want to increase our DPS remove the usless power drains that a few of our skills do and add more base damage.</P>

[Mimsi]

<P>I wouldn't be keen on poisons - doesn't quite seem jaunty and 'bardy' enough. And, oh, the expense - our guild ranger has a 'whinge' hotkey for poison costs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'd like to see <U>slightly</U> longer duration charms, with 'attack' and 'back-off' functionality ... not a huge change to the dynamic, but would make pets usable in group scenarios whilst slightly reducing risk from angry x-pets. ... still risky, but a compromise. </P> <P> </P>

[Emerix]

<P>controlable pets with less chance to break .</P> <P>poison would work , too . </P> <P>or a simple 30 % damage increse for all our attacks .</P>

[Bumblethither]

Easiest solution would be to tweak the damage of some of our songs, I would bet instead they just add another line of AA's for boosting our dps via augmentation in November with the new expansion.<br ><div></div>

[mook85az]

<div></div>I think they should up Aria a little, to 40%, make our self buff cost no concentration, and adjust some spells upward.  Who even uses the single target, gimpy damage, longer casting spell?  Well, maybe now that it'll proc more than anything else... I'd like to see our one nuke give us more power back and take away the power drains on our stuff that does it for increased damage and/or power transfer. Since Bellow was used pretty much for Aria procs, they should up the knockback chance significantly.  I don't care if they add a power cost to it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by mook85az on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>I actually like this idea, the posions would make up for the loss of dps from Aria.  The only problem is we already have a poison AA, and dirges would have to be given access to it too, and their DPS is about where it should be right now.  Maybe just giving our spells and combart arts a small increase in damage would work.</DIV>

[Straygats]

My only issue with poison (besides the RP one) would be that a lot of our flair is from controlling mobs via mez/charm.  If we got a functional class-based poison, it'd probably be a downright pain the butt for the mez happy among us.I'd much rather simply see our songs do better damage and eliminate the outdaye portions of them.  Or give us some more proc like effects that are related to those songs.<div></div>

[Narben Von Nacht]

Some good thoughts here.I started thinking about poison because the chance of an across the board increase to our spell damage is slim and none. The devs seem woefully unwilling to do further major tinkering with any class as apparently we're all supposed to be fine now. Troubs can't even get an obviously broken spell like Requiem looked at, what hope for every spell in our repertoire.I didn't consider upgrades to charm since I was thinking of a permanent increase to dps and charm is a no go in raids. It would help solo and group but I was looking for something that applied in every situation.Without a doubt a straight increase to our spells would be best but I just can't see it happening anytime soon.<div></div>

[thorvang]

i don't see bards and poison as a good mix. what could be done is removing the useless power drain from sandra's and the backstab (forgot the name) and increase their damage. plus charm should result in a controlable mob, maybe remove the conc on it.

[Destamon]

<div></div>I really like the idea of increasing the damage of our comabt arts and spells and removing the useless side effect mana drain.What i don't like is the idea of having a no-conc slot charm with a controlable pet. I play both a troubadour and a coercer and that would be more than unfair compared to the coercer charm wich is also their class defining skill.

[vinterskugge]

Our charm is fine as it is.

[Sir Blig]

<DIV>Yea not really a fan for poison for bard has always been out of our class and does not make for good stories and songs, bards are more about flair etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What would be a blast is change the power reducing attacks into whatever power it reduces you get (would help for keeping the debuffs up over a longer time). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise yup, they need to do an across the board update on our damage to bring us back up to the level we should be.<BR>The suggestion on removing the conc price on self only buffs, very cool I would vote for that any day, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enhancements to mez and charm would be nice but yea the comments on we need more across the board coverage is correct, already we have a few things that don't work around epics and I would not wana see that increased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can always hope they get round to looking at corrective measures before the year is out<BR></DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV>I've been lucky with my dps.  At lev 36, I have mostly Master 1 skills (gotta love the shortage of Troubies on my server).  Beats me why there are so few, the troubie class is awesome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know things will get much harder.  There seem to be almost no Troubie Master 1's on the broker above lev 36 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd prefer us not to have poison.  As a Qeynosian, it's nice to have a scout class which doesn't use poison.  Roleplaywise, I associate poison with evil.  If we need a boost to our dps, they should raise the damage of our skills a bit.  On the other hand, as Dirges already do disease damage, I can't see why they shouldn't get poison ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead of poison, I'd suggest raising the damage on our slowest-casting nuke.  Nothing overpowering, just enough to actually make it worth using.  My guess is, if they ran a log of the number of times this line of spells is cast, it'd be rare to never.  If they made it worth using, they'd fix a broken spell, and up our dps at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Charm is the coercer class-defining ability, I think ours should remain substantially weaker.  For non-damage skills like charm, we are already overflowing with such abilities.  Would be unfair to encrouch further on the territory of others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for power drain.  It's useless in PvE.  But isn't it useful in PvP?  Anyone on a PvP server able to confirm this?</DIV>

[Pathos311]

A novel idea is to give bards instruments instead of posions.  This would jive well with bard lore have the same flexabilty as posions and could even make beain a bard more fun.  I have never understood why a bard had a bow instead of a Kazoo.  Just my 2 cp. <div></div>

[tawek]

<DIV>Great point Pathos311.  Instruments are a much better idea than boosting a couple of nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would add another trade-off.  As well as sword and shield for defense, or dual wield for max dps, we could choose instuments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they do this, I hope they make each configuration have both advantages and disadventages, so there won't be one cookie-cutter bard configuration.  Maybe songs would be grouped into instrument types (as in EQ1), and the instrument gives boosts to that group of song, but maybe a very small penalty for songs not in that group: so raiding bards needed for their songs might reasonably choose weapons over instruments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the next expansion, when they upgrade AA's, give us a branch devoted to instrument playing bards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know some people hate these kind of trade-offs.  I love them.  They add more strategic thinking to our play, and would make one bard (who might play instrument), look distinctive from another who doesn't.</DIV>

[Trabbart]

<P>Trade off? I have nothing left to trade. </P> <P>As far as we encrouching on other peoples territory? I think we deserve a better charm (less breakable and a bit better commandable) I think we deserve more dps on all our spells. And i also think we deserve more utility. We certainly deserve better treatment.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Athri]

<DIV>I say let bards continue to auto-attack when "casting" any of their songs. It'd be a decent boost in auto-attack damage and, while not a huge increase, would be both a good start and something uniquely "bard". It may not help much for raids, sadly.</DIV>

[Toogel]

<DIV>I think that there are a few decent ways to increase Bard dps without the additions of poisons.  Im not keen on poisons myself personally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our "Alin's" debuff that hits the enemies wisdom and does a damage over time would be nice to increase the DoT on it.  It may actually make it worth throwing up on mobs a bit more frequently.  As of now, the low damage output of it and only debuffing wisdom makes it the least used debuff I put out.  Generally after I have "Demoralized" the mob and "Rebuffed" it after that, I tend to just lay in with the attacks.  The only time I actually cast the Kian's and Alin's is if Im fighting a 1 up or heroic and there is the possibility that without the debuffs I could have my tooshie beat.  Increasing the DoT actually makes the debuff more plausible and would answer the "how about poison" posters out there as a better, more controlable, damage over time than unreliable poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, the casting time of Eli's is far too long to only do half the damage that Shrill does.  And it is interruptable, whats up with that?  Perfect Shrill for me does around 1450 damage and Drumming hits at around 750 or so (dont use it enough to really pay attention).  I think that Eli's needs to be around 2k damage with a slightly longer recast time.  Keep it interruptable and the same cast time, but give us some greater incentive to actually use it other than while we are waiting for our other combat arts to refresh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, our flank attack ability needs to be givin about another 30% more damage.  This is a personal opinion.  I think max damage on it is about 1k, but most other scouts far out damage us in their opwn flanking attacks.  30% isnt gonna break our class any. It puts us up in reasonable group dps, and benefits our solo damage only slightly because most bards dont concentrate their efforts on trying to flank the enemy while soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, not so much to do with our damage output, but our powertaps... I think the Essence spell and the Flank attack should deal % of enemies power damage instead of a fixed amount.  It can steal give us a fixed amount of power back, but I think that it should deal 5% power damage (fixed-doesnt upgrade with skill upgrade Adept or Master... always 5%, and same as all tiers of the skill as well).  Lore's still drains XX% extra power from each skill the enemies use as well.  Mobs regenerate power quickly so 5% may seem like a lot, but it will still take a considerable amount of time to deplete the enemy of all its power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to compensate for the changes I listed, I think it only fair we take a negative change in return.  Since, in many aspects, bards are pretty much mages in chain mail, I think that we should take a small hit to our mitigation.  Not as bad as it would be to be a cloth wearer and get hit, but not as good as other chain wearers.  Again, just personal opinion, but I think this would all end up being fair in the long run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:: Dons a fire retardent suit for upcoming posts ::</DIV><p>Message Edited by Toogeloo on <span class=date_text>05-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 AM</span>

[Emerix]

<DIV>Very important for me is , that Troubadors and illusionists should get their damage increased . NOT coercers and Dirges . those are fine as they are .</DIV> <DIV>So bard instruments and poisons dont seem such a great idea .</DIV> <DIV>Off/Def stances wont cut it neither sincem Dirges would get those , too</DIV> <DIV>If we could control our pets like  Conjurers we would prolly even do too much damage so that wont be such a great solution</DIV> <DIV>Id suggest a simple 30 % damage increase on most our spells .</DIV> <DIV>That would bump us into T3 damage again without [Removed for Content] off too many people .</DIV>

[Narben Von Nacht]

<div><blockquote><hr>Toogeloo wrote:<div></div> <div>I think that there are a few decent ways to increase Bard dps without the additions of poisons.  Im not keen on poisons myself personally.</div> <div> </div> <div>Our "Alin's" debuff that hits the enemies wisdom and does a damage over time would be nice to increase the DoT on it.  It may actually make it worth throwing up on mobs a bit more frequently.  As of now, the low damage output of it and only debuffing wisdom makes it the least used debuff I put out.  Generally after I have "Demoralized" the mob and "Rebuffed" it after that, I tend to just lay in with the attacks.  The only time I actually cast the Kian's and Alin's is if Im fighting a 1 up or heroic and there is the possibility that without the debuffs I could have my tooshie beat.  Increasing the DoT actually makes the debuff more plausible and would answer the "how about poison" posters out there as a better, more controlable, damage over time than unreliable poisons.</div> <div> </div> <div>Secondly, the casting time of Eli's is far too long to only do half the damage that Shrill does.  And it is interruptable, whats up with that?  Perfect Shrill for me does around 1450 damage and Drumming hits at around 750 or so (dont use it enough to really pay attention).  I think that Eli's needs to be around 2k damage with a slightly longer recast time.  Keep it interruptable and the same cast time, but give us some greater incentive to actually use it other than while we are waiting for our other combat arts to refresh.</div> <div> </div> <div>Third, our flank attack ability needs to be givin about another 30% more damage.  This is a personal opinion.  I think max damage on it is about 1k, but most other scouts far out damage us in their opwn flanking attacks.  30% isnt gonna break our class any. It puts us up in reasonable group dps, and benefits our solo damage only slightly because most bards dont concentrate their efforts on trying to flank the enemy while soloing.<font color="#ffff33">Generally agree with the above so not going to add anything</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Lastly, not so much to do with our damage output, but our powertaps... I think the Essence spell and the Flank attack should deal % of enemies power damage instead of a fixed amount.  It can steal give us a fixed amount of power back, but I think that it should deal 5% power damage (fixed-doesnt upgrade with skill upgrade Adept or Master... always 5%, and same as all tiers of the skill as well).  Lore's still drains XX% extra power from each skill the enemies use as well.  Mobs regenerate power quickly so 5% may seem like a lot, but it will still take a considerable amount of time to deplete the enemy of all its power.</div> <div> <font color="#ffff33">Not going to happen, or if it does they'll make it so it ignores epic targets. One of the core reasons power taps are so lame is because if they're actually made useful they trivialise encounters. Draining a mob to prevent it using any useful abilities is a strategy dating back to EQ1 and I don't believe they'd ever allow it here.</font></div> <div>Now to compensate for the changes I listed, I think it only fair we take a negative change in return.  Since, in many aspects, bards are pretty much mages in chain mail, I think that we should take a small hit to our mitigation.  Not as bad as it would be to be a cloth wearer and get hit, but not as good as other chain wearers.  Again, just personal opinion, but I think this would all end up being fair in the long run.</div> <div><font color="#ffff33">We already take a hit to our mitigation since we don't get defensive stances. Back before the combat upgrade the Ballestic line of songs with its +defence made a difference but then they adjusted how the skill works and now it adds a minor amount to avoidance which is next to useless.Mages in chain mail we might be but we're still reliant on tanking. Mages may have pathetic mitigation but they get given root and controlable pets as compensation along with very high offensive spells. It would require an ungodly increase in our offensive abilities before we should be required to sacrifice something like mitigation.</font>:: Dons a fire retardent suit for upcoming posts ::</div><p>Message Edited by Toogeloo on <span class="date_text">05-07-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>