Procing with spells (upcoming change) [Archive]

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 07:52 PM

<div></div>Hey guys, Volgrant here. Unfortunately I am the messenger of doom.We just got nerfed. Severely. (In my opinion)Here's a quick test I did. The following are the spells I have as a level 65 Troubador that procs Aria's.Flawless ShrillPilfer EssenceEli's Thunderous ChorusLore's Magniloquent Roust (Haven't upgraded to the level 64 version yet, but it's still the same)Guviena's Apathetic ChantCheap ShotAwesome BellowAnd here are the results of proccing: (Proc Success/Total Tries)<b>RAW NUMBERS</b><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Flawless Shrill: 3/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Pilfer Essence: 3/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Eli's Thunderous Chorus: 4/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Lore's Magniloquent Roust: 0/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Guviena's Apathetic Chant: 1/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Cheap Shot: 0/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Awesome Bellow: 0/20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Total: 11/140</font><b>PERCENT</b><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Flawless Shrill: 15%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Pilfer Essence: 15%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Eli's Thunderous Chorus: 20%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Lore's Magniloquent Roust: 0%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Guviena's Apathetic Chant: 5%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Cheap Shot: 0%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Awesome Bellow: 0%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00">Total: ~7.9%</font><font color="#ccff00"></font>These were done on green mobs in TT. The spell description of Aria still says 30% chance to proc, by the way.Discuss.<div></div>

Bassist

04-21-2006, 08:06 PM

Could you also get numbers with Alin's? It's our longest cast, so we can see a more complete picture.<div></div>

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 08:14 PM

Going to try that now. <div></div>

Bassist

04-21-2006, 08:17 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Reducing the above numbers to casting times:<u><b><font color="#ff0000">Time</font></b></u><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000"><u><b>Number</b></u></font><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000"><u><b>Percent</b></u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">0.2 0/20 0%</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">0.5 1/60 1.67%</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">1.0 6/40 15%</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">2.0 4/20 20%3.0 6/14 42.86%</font>Editted with updated information. Here is an unweighted graph of procs vs. casting time.<img src="http://www.themauers.com/sig/proc_damage.PNG">I've put posts on the wizzie and warlock forums to get numbers to properly weigh this. While I was doing that I realized why they were making this change:The designers want an exact DPS number to associate with the procs. That means they are going straight-line with this, and we just need more numbers to see what that line is so we can calculate our DPS using Arias. Yes, the current numbers show it hurts us greatly, and I don't like it. But, I can see where they are coming from in trying to determine where rebalance is needed. Let's convince them to up the percentage line, or make the spin-point 1.0 or 1.5 seconds to help minimize the reduction in personal DPS.<p>Message Edited by Bassist on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 PM</span>

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 08:31 PM

<div></div>Meh, I went linkdead. This was all I was able to get: <font color="#ff0000"> Alin's: 6/14, or ~43%</font> EDIT: Test Server seems to be down right now. =/ <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zeral498 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 AM</span>

Antipalad

04-21-2006, 08:48 PM

Are we now supposed to be a dual box buff bot? This change is bad, it's beyond bad, it's horrible. We RELY on aria to do damage when we have to solo, remove this, and we might as well log in and go afk.

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 08:52 PM

Well, for solo-ability it doesn't really change much. Fight ends maybe 5-10 seconds later then usual, but I can still solo fine. Just a little slower and my DPS goes down a bit. It's going to hurt us in the groups and the raids, though. It seems to be alright if casters are only using 2-3 second spells since they have a much higher chance of proccing, but something tells me that most of their spells are relatively fast casting... Well guys, it seems that Allegro, which was already pointless, now hurts us. Doesn't hurt us much, but nevertheless, it does. xD <div></div>

Bassist

04-21-2006, 09:03 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Zeral498 wrote:Well, for solo-ability it doesn't really change much. Fight ends maybe 5-10 seconds later then usual, but I can still solo fine. Just a little slower and my DPS goes down a bit. It's going to hurt us in the groups and the raids, though. It seems to be alright if casters are only using 2-3 second spells since they have a much higher chance of proccing, but something tells me that most of their spells are relatively fast casting... Well guys, it seems that Allegro, which was already pointless, now hurts us. Doesn't hurt us much, but nevertheless, it does. xD <div></div><hr></blockquote>I thought the same thing at first, but Allegro is recast reduction. Doesn't affect casting time...whew!</div>

Antipalad

04-21-2006, 09:05 PM

Nope, allegro is casting time. GG Sony.

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 09:05 PM

<div></div>Sorry, but you're wrong. =/ Allegro: Reduces Casting Timers of group members (AE) by x.y% Alin's takes 2.9 seconds to cast. My CoO and CoR takes 29 seconds to cast instead of 30. Yes, Allegreo hurts us. EDIT: Ninjaed by Antipaladin. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zeral498 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

Crombie

04-21-2006, 09:08 PM

.. this whole change makes me sick to my stomach ... and yeah .. Allegro would have negative effects now.. */grumbles

Bassist

04-21-2006, 09:09 PM

Gah! My head is starting to hurt. Well, my wife will certainly enjoy the extra time I will be spending with her <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Zeral498

04-21-2006, 09:19 PM

Woo, now I'm starting to notice the effect of this spell during soloing. I have to say, if the devs want to make this class extinct, they're on the right track. <div></div>

Nevari

04-21-2006, 09:35 PM

Just sigh <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The big picture is one thing but we belong to the player base as well. SOE can seriously treat us like this? Yes they can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sad day.<div></div>

Emerix

04-21-2006, 10:29 PM

<DIV>Oh yes we can do something ! Rangers got nerfed , whined and got their *censored* WE can do it , too .</DIV> <DIV>WE are SCOUTS . thats a DAMAGE class and we NEVER did damage so why the hell nerf us so much ?</DIV>

Nevari

04-21-2006, 11:00 PM

Easy. Cos of the big picture taking into account many subclasses and their procs respective our proc on top of it. It's a quick and easy fix. Yet a dirty one. Look at the casting times for Wizards and Warlocks. They actually get a bump in dps here. Look at us with every CA respective skill which has a chance to set of a Aria proc is 1sec or lower except 2 skills if I'm not mistaken. Now if you take also Allegro AA you lower the casting even more thus lowering the chance to proc even more.At 1sec cast time the proc chance is allready cut half according to the currently available numbers. And we are not a damage class either afaik so. Not according the damage tiers or anything else. We are a supporting class. We make our group do their job better.So for SUPPORTING others, especially mages, we do better. Solo we suck. Our AA are not in line with these changes either. Still I don't like it. Am I always forced to group now to get anything done? And so on. There can be many pros and cons given.Bottom line remains. It is just the same old what happenend since the game went live.<div></div>

Lynadianya Zeran

04-21-2006, 11:13 PM

<DIV>" A spell's chance to trigger a proc is now adjusted based on its cast time"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's all it says, and yet, it is such a monumental change to me. It should say, "Hey Troubadours...I know there's only a couple of you out there, so you won't really mind if we nerf the heck out of you." I rely on my spell procs to solo. It's hard enough to solo as it is. I farm blues, mostly, because whites and yellows take too much time to kill and have too much downtime associated with them. I have never, ever been able to solo a triple up green. I always die. This may change now that I have lullabye, but I haven't had the opportunity to test it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This makes me very sad. I know that there are few Troubador's on my server (I was the 44th Troubador to make 51 on Kithicor, and that was about a week ago). I love my Troubador. I love the buffs I bring to my guild. I tend to take Aria down unless I am in a caster heavy group. I know that he pathetic amount of damage I bring to the group isn't going to amount to a hill of beans anyway, and there are other buffs I could put up instead (I have almost all my buffs and my Aria at Master 1 or 2). When I am soloing, Aria is always up. It's necessary. I need the little extra boost it gives so that I can survive that awsome, terrifying, "one up even con mob" (which almost always takes me close to dead before I kill him).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I just can't understand why they are targeting us. How did our heads pop up in the nerf whack-a-mole game? Is that little extra damage we do that game breaking?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited because I checked and I was the 60th player to make 49 Troubadour on Kithicor. I was the 44th to make 51. That's even more sad. That means that 22 players never made it from 49 to 51.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lynadianya Zeran on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

Emerix

04-21-2006, 11:14 PM

<DIV>Uhm Nevarion youre wrong we are on the damage tiers with those uhm .. coercers and illusionists . AND we are scouts . its plain *censored* that WE get hit by the nerfhammer although we REALLY didnt hit well at all . I have maxxed int and master perfect shrill and can do like 1,5k damage max .. a HEALER .. a FURY can do more than 3k damage with a hit . thats just plain *censored* we should be above zerkers in damage and bruisers yet they can outdamage us easily . </DIV> <DIV>The procs were what keps us over water . Now our procs will really really get nerfed so where the heck is the old idea with the damage tiers i ask ?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Emerix on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

Cuz

04-21-2006, 11:20 PM

<P>It's like Nevarion said, it's not a straight nerf on all facets. Soloing it is a nerf, no way around it. In groups it's situational, if you have a few of the other casters other than the chanters in your party, then it's probably an upgrade for us. It's preatty much the same in raids.</P> <P>My gripe? Well it just adds to my basic gripe with troubs, it makes us even more boring. Atleast the debuff / cancel had us doing something for extra DPS. In the long run it just makes us less active.</P>

Emerix

04-21-2006, 11:22 PM

<P>Right now i SO dont care about groups as its not MY damage i increase but some other guys . we were great in groups anyway i dont want to be better . i want to be better on my own</P> <P> </P>

Bassist

04-21-2006, 11:22 PM

The wizzie and warlock communities gave me some numbers, and I'm going to weight my graph above. They also are concerned because they have AAs that further reduce their casting times. They brought up that it might be based on base casting time, which would keep the math simple for designers. And that's what this change seems to be for.<div></div>

Pins

04-21-2006, 11:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <DIV>Uhm Nevarion youre wrong we are on the damage tiers with those uhm .. coercers and illusionists . AND we are scouts . its plain *censored* that WE get hit by the nerfhammer although we REALLY didnt hit well at all . I have maxxed int and master perfect shrill and can do like 1,5k damage max .. a HEALER .. a FURY can do more than 3k damage with a hit . thats just plain *censored* we should be above zerkers in damage and bruisers yet they can outdamage us easily . </DIV> <DIV>The procs were what keps us over water . Now our procs will really really get nerfed so where the heck is the old idea with the damage tiers i ask ?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Emerix on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just to let you know, Illusionists are getting hit just as hard, if not harder by this nerf than you guys are. And yes, I'm with you, oh and damage per spell, you're complaining about a 1.5k max nuke, try a max nuke of 837(15+2), a melee-proc of 999(that's 3 times every 15+2), or a nuke of 671(3+1), but you know what, the procs are what kept Illusionists in Tier 3, now we're down to Tier 4/5. For information, Illusionists have a proc, Synergism, castable on a person in a raid/group with a 1-concentration slot charge, that is 33% chance to do 382-466 Damage at the cap. This was, about 13-18% of my damage on most fights, and if I had a troub in the group, Dissonant Note was the same amount of damage. Now after this change, I fear Synergism will be about 2-3% of my damage on a fight, and I will be far below most classes, yet again. Oh well.

Emerix

04-21-2006, 11:54 PM

<DIV>I wouldnt mind the change if it would increase the chance to proc on spells [Removed for Content] a > 2sec cast time and leave the lower ones alone .</DIV>

Crombie

04-22-2006, 04:05 AM

<P>Hrmm</P> <P><SPAN class=itemTitle>Nightchord Cap</SPAN><BR>Applies Alacrity when Equipped<IMG src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/images/en/invis.gif" width=20>•Increases Attack Speed of caster by 3.0%<IMG src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/images/en/invis.gif" width=20>•Reduces Casting Timers of caster by 3.0%</P> <P> </P> <P>... .. Wearing this hat is just like Allegro ... with this change.. has negative effects ... </P>

shortfa

04-22-2006, 03:02 PM

yeah, i'm still not sure why they are implementing this change. Spell and melee procs are so different, why handle them the same way? even with a low chance to proc, melee'ers can still auto attack, churning out a large number of hits and getting a quasi-regular proc rate. For spells however, we have no auto attack, we just cast it once, if it doesn't proc we're gonna have to wait for the recast timer to get back before we can cast it again. Its madness if the proc rates are lowered, there is no spell auto attack to shore up the damage inbetween or to give a chance to proc. Melee procs still proc when a character is OOP, for a caster however, its not going to happen. Most of the additional damage comes from procs off debuffs (for troubadors at least, our snare, cheap shot, etc.), CAs that do not do damage on their own, so the extra damage is just a help. Melee procs however, even if they don't proc, the CA is still going to do its stated damage. If we include our recast timing into a dps calculation, i'm sure that the numbers will be horrendous. One must remember that a character can have alot more melee hits in a single fight than spells casted. If they intend to implement this change, i believe that they should still increase the base % of procs. for casters, or make the procing damage ALOT (notice the caps? it means AAAALOOOOT) higher than what it is now to give it a fair chance against the melee procs. <div></div>

Godzmodi

04-22-2006, 03:33 PM

so they made wizard and warlock dmg even greater and lowered the already low enchanter and bard damage. awsome! <div></div>

Emerix

04-22-2006, 04:32 PM

<P>Its not only that modiar</P> <P>They dump us to Tier 4 or 5 Damage with this .</P>

Nevari

04-23-2006, 03:01 AM

<div></div>So having stated what I see go wrong on SOE side <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=52866#M52866">here</a>, I been thinking a bit more. What bugs me... hmmm...Is it that even as EQ2 is a MMO I'm forced to group now to get anything done? That I'm a medicore buff bot after except for one certain group setup? That this feels like going the same way as pre-DoF until some fabulous miracle fixes aka combat system changes are being put into development? And that it all just starts over again? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I honestly don't know. I do know that this, excuse me, stinks. Seeing the complexity of this game I do understand it's a hard job to do. There are so many pros and cons. There can a endless discussion take place for both sides of it.But what I see is that the faith and dedication is dwindling. Some of us Troubs do not even bother posting anymore. This would set of all of my alarms if I were you dear devs.Personally I'm majorly dissapointed and do strongly disagree with this change to procs. Oh yeah before you point out I didn't give any solutions, you are right. I freely admit it. I just don't have a clue anymore and well... don't fix what is not broken really. What else could I suggest than leaving it the way it is? Maybe hard capping the proc chances in the lower segment? Not working, contradicting to what the intention is here. I know a forum aint the best place for a structured discussion and honestly I'm just to tired nowdays and do not care enough anymore.Since this game went live we took constant nerfs and even a complete redefine of our class. We adopted sooner or later and gained back fun and sense. But now the morale is down and the fun is gone. Shame SOE. I feel reminded of other games I played from your brand.<div></div>

pera

04-23-2006, 09:45 AM

Mxo = Failure SWG = Failure I really hope changes like this do not make eq2 another failure <div></div>

Worrick

04-23-2006, 11:58 AM

<DIV>I'm seeign some concerns about allegro hurting proc chance. I do not think that will eb the case. They ar emakign spell procs similer to melee procs so I assuem they follow similer rules, as in, melee haste does not decrease proc chance it is determined buy the base unmodified weapon delay or combat art casting time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example, weapon proc rates are baselined at a weapon delay of 3 seconds. If you use weapon A with a second delay and 10% chance to proc, it will proc 10% of the time. If you have 100% haste your weapon will effectively have a delay of 1.5 seconds, it will still proc 10% of the time, it will not be reduced to 5%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spells will probably follow a similer rule, the spell's base unmodified casting timer will determine each spell's proc chance, not the spell haste modified version.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not think they should change spell proc sliek this at all, but since they are, I do think they should normalise it at 2 seconds, not 2.5. Since most spells are on a 2 second cast time. I haven't played a troubador so I don't know how yours are they may be faster to match up better with combat arts that other melee classes use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just curious too, can troubador spells be interupted while moveing liek normal spells are are they treated liek combat arts for that?</DIV>

Mordicus

04-23-2006, 12:01 PM

<a href="http://www.serial-ballbusters.com/" target=_blank>How it feels</a> , the woman in the black is an SoE Dev, the dude plays a necro. Pretty lame if this goes live when Rangers arent even where theyre supposed to be. Oh hey, while were at it lets just do another complete revamp, lower mob HP again, and nerf all CAs and damage spells, soon enough well be seeing parses with an uber 200dps!! You guys are funny, very funny. Oh SoE youre like a catholic school girl with a lolipop. And yeah im totally buying Vanguard when it comes out heh, too bad WoW sucked or id still be playing it. Get it together Vanguard is right around the corner.<span>:smileytongue:</span> Mordicus 70 Zerkah <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=1217108" target=_blank>THE DARK SIDE</a> <div></div>

Antipalad

04-23-2006, 12:24 PM

@ Worrick - All but two of our dmg spells are interruptable (one single target nuke, one aoe nuke), rest of nukes are interruptable, our debuffs can be cast on the move tho.

Maestroofsong

04-23-2006, 02:32 PM

LOL This is a funny thread. I see a lot of anger about the troub class,,, and can't say I blame ya

kerel

04-23-2006, 09:59 PM

Will this change PoM as well? <div></div>

pera

04-23-2006, 10:05 PM

<blockquote><hr>kerel wrote:Will this change PoM as well? <div></div><hr></blockquote>it shouldn't PoM is supposed to be 100% chance to proc, but who knows <div></div>

Pins

04-23-2006, 11:19 PM

<DIV>In Theory, 100% hostile spell procs should remained un-touched. But in reality, those instant cast spells, probably will no longer proc Precision of the Meastro anymore, just to [Removed for Content] people off even more.</DIV>

Snublefot

04-24-2006, 12:31 AM

<P>I guess PoM will stay untouched. In raids I'm placed in mage/caster groups. I doubt it will affect the damage I add to mages, and with PoM untouched the damage bursts will stay untouched.</P> <P>So how could our solo/personal dps be improved? Upgrade some of our nukes. I guess most like me spend more time casting various CA/nukes then in autoattack. And leave Thunderous Drumming out of the attack rutine. Reducing recast while keeping the cast time, and maybe give the spell a damage boost would be one solution. An all around increase to damage on CA/spells might also solve some of our problems. Reducing the cast time to near instant would prolly make it used much the same as bewildering incursion. But would also make it proc less. I would still choose that path instead of reduced recast.</P> <P>It would suck if proc chance is calculated after cast reduce timers. I hope those of you playing on Test make sure this is mentioned to devs.</P> <P>Another suggested change could be to add an increase spell range part to Aria. That would most certainly be something uniqe. Would help us much solo, but would be great in raid situations.</P>

Kahna

04-24-2006, 02:15 AM

<DIV>Good luck with this one guys, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Dirges kicked and screamed when SOE nerfed our procs, effectily halving the dmg they did, and nothing ever got done about it. Atleast your big proc spell, (PoM) didn't get nerfed. Count your blessings. </DIV>

Zeral498

04-24-2006, 02:34 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kahna wrote:<div>Good luck with this one guys, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Dirges kicked and screamed when SOE nerfed our procs, effectily halving the dmg they did, and nothing ever got done about it. Atleast your big proc spell, (PoM) didn't get nerfed. Count your blessings. </div><hr></blockquote>Well, we don't KNOW if it got nerfed. I'm Volgrant (67 Troub on Test now), and to this day I STILL don't have PoM (due to the lack of high level jewelers. Ordered one from a 70 Jewler friend a while ago, but it was a big order or buncha spells and it hasn't arrived yet. It may never arrive, for that matter. =/). So yeah, I haven't been able to test that yet. If someone feels like grinding a Jeweler to 60 on Test, please do. <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zeral498 on <span class=date_text>04-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 PM</span>

Emerix

04-24-2006, 02:33 PM

Kahna . your procs were effectively way too strong . it pushed you into a higher tier than bards are supposed to be . that got more or less fixed ((maybe fixed too much even )) We never did that much damage and well tier 3 dps classes just shouldnt be outdamaged by .. TANKS or HEALERS but well .. guess thats soes way to go . they will *meep* up all that *meeep* so they can sell another expansion pack with a BIG HUGE GREAT Combat Update . Deja vue anyone ?

IKS_Nels

04-24-2006, 07:02 PM

<P>I am not a betting man but going by previous patches, when SoE adjusts one thing it has a knock on effect on all similar lines of spells, e.g. items, Armor, I imagine our PotM will also get hit hard as itr runs along the same spell lines. its 100% proc chance it will still be indirectly effected by these changes with instant cast spells probably procing 70% of the time and our 1s cast spells will be at about 80%</P> <P>As to our DPS dropping it will and a lot and the following is based by what we know and I used my 69 Trouby to work out damage unbuffed but the following situations are ment to be taken from a group situation and thus we would be doing even more damage! than in spell descriptions.</P> <P> </P> <P>In group combat I tend to cast the following spells in this order ( Base chance to Proc 30%)</P> <P>1) Debuff : Opressive Discante <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 76)</FONT></P> <P>2) Debuff : Kian's Catastrophic "145 damage every Tick" <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 23)</FONT></P> <P>3) Debuff : Demoralizing Processional <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 8<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>4) HO starter if I can be bothered most combat finishes before they can ever be completed</P> <P>5) DD : Alin's Incandesent concord 409 -682 Only if a group of mobs bigger then 3 will I cast this <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 21)</FONT></P> <P>6) DD : Flawless shrill 662 -1103 <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 89)</FONT></P> <P>7) DD : Pilfer Essence 77-128 <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CA :Nobel Blade 321 - 535 if first hits get second attack</P> <P>9) CA : Sandra's Bewildering Incursion 255 - 425</P> <P>10) CA : Dancing Blade 355 - 593</P> <P>If mob is still alive at this point normaly only names unless I am in group of 3 or 4</P> <P>11) Debuff : Guviena's Apathetic chant <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 07)</FONT></P> <P>12) Debuff : Lore's Magniloquent Roust <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 61)</FONT></P> <P>13) DD : Flawless Shrill 662- 1103 <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 50)</FONT></P> <P>14) DD : Pilfer Essence 77-128 <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 46)</FONT></P> <P>15) CA : Sandra's Bewildering Incursion 255 - 425</P> <P>16) CA : Dancing Blade 355 - 593</P> <P>1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CA : Nobel Blade 321 - 535 if first hits get second attack</P> <P>19) DD : Elis Thunderous Chorus 383 -638 <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 70)</FONT></P> <P>Now the following songs Proced successfully Alin's Incandesent concord, Kian's Catastrophic, and Guviena's Apathetic chant. all have a fixed chance of procing at the moment at 30% numbers were generated at random by rolling a 100 sided Dice (don't ask). for each spell as game would</P> <P>Now against A Named Monster I will have cast 11 songs (spells) that could Proc of off Aria of Acclamation lets take a single Named heroic mob each of them spells has a 30% chance at the moment of procing, so on average at Least 3 of them should proc adding an extra 274 to 463 a hit to the possible Combat Dps of which will be from 4272 to 7076.</P> <P>so over the course of this combat Aria's only adds up to 822 to 1369 </P> <P>thats 5094 to 8445 all added together as you can see it adds 1/5th of the total to low end dps and about 1/8th high end just coming from procs on a solo mob</P> <P>Against a group of say 4 mobs the only spell that dose group damage Alin's Incandesent concord will do 409 to 682 x by 4 =1636 to 2728 added to previous damage it comes out like so 5499 to 9122. for the whole combat </P> <P>But in groups the procs add up big time, Alin's Incandesent concord, Kian's Catastrophic, are Group based attacks and when they proc it dose alot of damage so lets say a total of 9 procs on this group 2466 damage minimum and 4167 at maximum. for a grand total of 7965 to 13289</P> <P>thats not far of off 50% of group damage we do coming from procs, </P> <P>Now with the changes that may be implemented are going to reduce that damage as they only have the following chance of damage</P> <P>1) Debuff : Opressive Discante<FONT color=#ff0000> 10% 1 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 13)</FONT></P> <P>2) Debuff : Kian's Catastrophic "145 damage every Tick" <FONT color=#ff0000>10% 1 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>3) Debuff : Demoralizing Processional <FONT color=#ff0000>10% 1 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 92)</FONT></P> <P>4) HO starter if I can be bothered most combat finishes before they can ever be completed</P> <P>5) DD : Alin's Incandesent concord 409 -682 Only if a group of mobs bigger then 3 will I cast this <FONT color=#ff0000>40% 3 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 24)</FONT></P> <P>6) DD : Flawless shrill 662 -1103 <FONT color=#ff0000>15% 1.5 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 71)</FONT></P> <P>7) DD : Pilfer Essence 77-128 <FONT color=#ff0000>15% 1.5 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 25)</FONT></P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CA :Nobel Blade 321 - 535 if first hits get second attack</P> <P>9) CA : Sandra's Bewildering Incursion 255 - 425</P> <P>10) CA : Dancing Blade 355 - 593</P> <P>If mob is still alive at this point normaly only names unless I am in group of 3 or 4</P> <P>11) Debuff : Guviena's Apathetic chant <FONT color=#ff0000>5% 0.5 sec cast </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 29)</FONT></P> <P>12) Debuff : Lore's Magniloquent Roust <FONT color=#ff0000>5% 0.5 sec cast <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 64)</FONT></FONT></P> <P>13) DD : Flawless Shrill 662- 1103 <FONT color=#ff0000>15% 1.5 sec cast <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 29)</FONT></FONT></P> <P>14) DD : Pilfer Essence 77-128 <FONT color=#ff0000>15% 1.5 sec cast <FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 44)</FONT></FONT></P> <P>15) CA : Sandra's Bewildering Incursion 255 - 425</P> <P>16) CA : Dancing Blade 355 - 593</P> <P>1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CA : Nobel Blade 321 - 535 if first hits get second attack</P> <P>19) DD : Elis Thunderous Chorus 383 -638 <FONT color=#ff0000>20% 2 sec cast but takes 2.5 seconds!!! </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>(random roll 01)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Thats 2 spells procing out of 11 that ant good thats and 1 in 5 chance or about 20% "spell said and will still say 30% probably"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>yet again using numbers above </FONT></P> <P>Solo named heroic we did from 4272 to 7076 damage, the new proc damage will be 548 to 926</P> <P>Now against Named group of 4 and spell damage was 5499 to 9122 add in the new Proc damage 1370 to 2315 </P> <P>Even with the inconsistency's here this wont happen all the time and I don't have time to do 100 tests to get it dead on right and the random luck factor included its very easy to see that we are going to take a big hit in solo dps and especially against groups of mobs, all in all a big Nerf bat is swing in our direction, for a class that can get out dpsed by some healers and quite a few Tank classes. has few Buffs that upgrade by any amount over 14 levels, and are having more and more trouble with crowd control. the future looks very dark for us.</P> <P>This Don't look very good for us at all let alone the other classes that rely on procs as well.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only reason I can think of them Introducing these changes is the phonominal damage casters are able to do when grouped with us and illys in a raid situation where spamming low power fast casting spells can generate Huge DPS numbers for certan classes, nearly 1/3 of the raids damage can come form a Trouby caster raid group if not more and this has probably Bought us to SoE attention.....</P><p>Message Edited by IKS_Nelson on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

Bassist

04-24-2006, 07:21 PM

OK, so going by the previous proc changes, I will say that cast reduction does not change the proc percentage. So, those are increases to DPS still. Given that, I will also say that it is probably centered around 3.0 seconds using some stat fitting which showed it to be straight-line with 3.1 as the center. That makes the math easy, as well, since the proc percentage become base cast time * 10%. We know already that this means our personal DPS goes down, but it means it goes down to 7% proc. This can be brought up to 8% in the first round through debuffs. Slightly more if we pull with Guniena's. So, we go from 2.1 procs per rotation (assuming single target in the calculation) down to 0.4 procs per rotation. This is slightly skewed, in that I didn't count bellow for the post-change. If that gets included in the calculation, which is should since it doesn't increase rotation time, then it's down to 0.36 procs per rotation.Lost damage in a single rotation (assuming Master): ~510 over 25 seconds soloing, or 20.4DPS removed from our low DPS soloing. Since I'm only doing about 150 DPS solo, this is a significant percentage of my damage. Yes, I can get higher than 150, but really I sit around there as a good average. That's almost 14% of my DPS gone soloing. Even if you're getting 300DPS (which I can see, since I don't have any Master/Adept3 on direct damage yet) it will be almost 7% gone.Now, to groups. Mostly casters gain from Arias, though taunts and debuffs from the other melee classes do as well. But, those are generally fast-cast and so will go down. So, I went to Wizzies and Warlocks to determine what they use and what their cast times are. What I've found is that they stay at about 30% in a single rotation, since we need to include their debuffs/stuns/stifles. So overall there is no gain in DPS from other classes, and loss in most cases.This really hurts in groups, since you rarely get through a rotation and will generally see the short-cast taunts/debuffs hitting more than the long-cast damage. People have mentioned power, interrupts, and other issues where we can't get a hit already that doesn't happen with other procs. My main issue is that almost all spells/CAs have a recovery timer of 0.5, during which you can't do any spells/CAs. So a short-caster using 0.5 casts has thier proc-over-time halved compared to a 3.0 second average caster. This wasn't taken into account in any of the calculations except lost DPS (hence, 25 second rotation).Conclusion: This is a huge nerf. There is no up-side to it.

Dizank

04-24-2006, 10:44 PM

<P>This is a huge nerf to a class that has already have to handle a "class redesign". All they are doing is taking away from us and giving nothing in return. There is no way I will be able to stay in t3 dps tier with a nerf like this. What worries me even is more is there has been 0 word from the Devs on why they are doing this and what the rational behind it is.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P>

Zeral498

04-24-2006, 11:33 PM

<blockquote><hr>IKS_Nelson wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>Now with the changes that may be implemented are going to reduce that damage as they only have the following chance of damage</p>... <p>1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CA : Nobel Blade 321 - 535 if first hits get second attack</p> <p>19) DD : Elis Thunderous Chorus 383 -638 <font color="#ff0000">20% 2 sec cast but takes 2.5 seconds!!! </font><font color="#ffff00">(random roll 01)</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">Thats 2 spells procing out of 11 that ant good thats and 1 in 5 chance or about 20% "spell said and will still say 30% probably"</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">yet again using numbers above </font></p> <p><b>Solo named heroic we did from 4272 to 7076 damage, the new proc damage will be 548 to 926</b> </p><hr></blockquote>Hey guys, Volgrant here again (67 Troub from Test). I'm just going to throw it out there that the calculations IKS_Nelson did is fairly accurate in comparison to what actually happens when you play with the nerf. I don't solo a named heroic, but when I do solo 66-67 solo mobs, I will proc Aria's MAYBE once. In one fight, I usually don't. Two in a fight is quite rare. This was when I was still testing whether I should keep Aria's up - I concluded that it's not worth putting up when I solo. That's how bad it is. It went from an absolute neccesary spell to kind of a wasteful spell. I regret taking it as my Master II choice now. Hopefully they will fix it.<div></div>

Rampagious

04-24-2006, 11:47 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Dizank wrote:<div></div> <p> What worries me even is more is there has been 0 word from the Devs on why they are doing this and what the rational behind it is.</p> <p> /sigh</p><hr></blockquote>While there has been no word, one has to assume. They changed how weapon delay changed proc rates to make it so bows arent so over powered on procs. While I don't like the change, how is it fair that no matter what the cast time all spells have an equal chance to proc if weapon delay procs got nerfed?</div>

Bassist

04-24-2006, 11:58 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Rampagious wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Dizank wrote:<div></div> <p> What worries me even is more is there has been 0 word from the Devs on why they are doing this and what the rational behind it is.</p> <p> /sigh</p><hr></blockquote>While there has been no word, one has to assume. They changed how weapon delay changed proc rates to make it so bows arent so over powered on procs. While I don't like the change, how is it fair that no matter what the cast time all spells have an equal chance to proc if weapon delay procs got nerfed?</div><hr></blockquote>Well, the problem is this is a core spell for both Troubs and Illusionists as a buff. Besides the loss of solo damage from something most Troubs have at Master I or II, there is a loss to our usefulness in groups. Without this Troubs will be relegated to a mana battery if they can't fill a slot. This isn't an overexaggeration. To a raid we would not offer the DPS we offered, we'd have the deagro song, mana, and some resists and defense (if in MT, which a Dirge does better). I think you can read through most of the forum and see that I'm usually pretty positive about changes, but this is a killer.Comparing this to weapon delay is not really a good one. You have to add 0.5 seconds (minimum) to each timer for recovery, and so a short-timer class (most scouts) would be hurt more than the straight percentage. A 3-second cast takes 3.5 seconds, but three 1-second casts take 4.5 seconds. A 3 second delay is a 3 second delay, a 1 second delay is a 1 second delay.</div>

IllusiveThoughts

04-25-2006, 01:32 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the problem is this is a core spell for both Troubs and Illusionists as a buff. Besides the loss of solo damage from something most Troubs have at Master I or II, there is a loss to our usefulness in groups. Without this Troubs will be relegated to a mana battery if they can't fill a slot. This isn't an overexaggeration. To a raid we would not offer the DPS we offered, we'd have the deagro song, mana, and some resists and defense (if in MT, which a Dirge does better). I think you can read through most of the forum and see that I'm usually pretty positive about changes, but this is a killer.<BR><BR>Comparing this to weapon delay is not really a good one. You have to add 0.5 seconds (minimum) to each timer for recovery, and so a short-timer class (most scouts) would be hurt more than the straight percentage. A 3-second cast takes 3.5 seconds, but three 1-second casts take 4.5 seconds. A 3 second delay is a 3 second delay, a 1 second delay is a 1 second delay.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>good point. </P> <P>The only way I think they could balance that is if the refresh timer is counted towards the proc rate. In otherwords a .5s cast spell with a .5 refresh would count as a 1.0 second cast spell, and proc accordingly. </P>

Snublefot

04-25-2006, 10:16 AM

<P>Doubt it will do much impact on my dps. Been testing a little with a combat parser and a typical solo fight give 5-15% dissonent note damage. And there was no real connection between proc % and the overall dps for the fight. The min/max average and luck on that dice seemed to have more impact.</P> <P>In a typical raid setup (mage group) it would most likely increase the groups damage output. At least thats the feedback I've gotten from them.</P>

Emerix

04-25-2006, 02:09 PM

<P>To hell with raid setups . most people in this game never raid . in an average group you almost never have more than 2 mages and for those only half their spells will have a higher chance to proc . The other half will proc less . </P> <P>I tried it myself btw . at least 1/3 of my damage comes from procs . WIth the update i will lose that . ((i Have Aria + the HQ belt with chance to proc and the earring )) And im not the only one with this equipment setup .</P> <P> </P> <P>To sum the whole crap up :</P> <P>This update will hurt everyone who casts because noone only has slow casttime spells . </P>

Mimsi

04-25-2006, 04:17 PM

<DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>Emerix wrote:</P> <P>To hell with raid setups . Most people in this game never raid . in an average group you almost never have more than 2 mages and for those only half their spells will have a higher chance to proc . The other half will proc less .</P> <P></P> <HR> </DIV> <P>I second this, when this arrives it'll be cataclysmic for the little, non-24hr raid troubadour (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt). There are a few of us about, unbelievably as it may seem, in small social guilds, that despite playing for 6hrs a day since release don't have full (or any) legendary equipment, no masters or even adept3s, because they're prohibitively expensive and have been unlucky with drops. We will have the greatest chance of proccing off of the cr*p 2 second cast single target (I forget name) or ailins', but usually, by the time these get to hit, the mob's dead and I have to wait for refresh. I normally avoid these spell as the cast time is appalling and the damage at adept 1 is a shocker.</P> <P>This is galling when you see warlock/wiz masters auctioned that are 8-12000 damage to all encounter mobs and you're reliant (as a non-raid troub) on random procs for any group contribution. (note: I don't begrudge the other classes their damage - good on 'em).</P> <P></P> <P>Bless my little mellee-centric guild, they put up with my inadequacies as a crappy buffer, but this is potentially an unmitigated disaster for the little people. We are out here! Rise up...</P> <P>... and be ignored <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Mimsi - 65 troub</P>

Snublefot

04-25-2006, 04:33 PM

<DIV>5-15% was in solo against solo target mobs. Its a nerf, but nowhere as dramatic as some here want it to be.</DIV>

Mimsi

04-25-2006, 05:12 PM

<P>Well that's a relief - although not sure I 'wanted' it to be dramatic. But you slightly miss my point (or <EM>maybe</EM> I was over-dramatic) let me try again.</P> <P>I don't need nerfing. The little people are not adding huge numbers to the already insane figures provided for by raid caster groups. We're pottering along playing the game in a different scenario, a group scenario, which is alledgedly a dynamic the game caters for. </P> <P>In a non-ideal group setup (that I play in each day) I contribute spikey DPS, with cap and meastro I can equal my guild ranger. The next two fights when they're not up, I'm with the shamen and the guardian. Now, nerf the procs to only trigger on spells that I invariably never get to cast because the cast times are horrendous, where am I then?</P> <P>I'm a duff buffer (no masters or adept3s), with even poorer, more sporadic DPS, and fun, situational CC ability.</P> <P>So we need to be catered for too, not just battered again because Sony have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game dynamic, in which everyone has 30 procs off their trousers, earrings, socks, etc which have become unmanageable. Hard to consider, I know, but there are others playing the game in a different scenario. </P> <P>I appreciate it's all very alarmist. But really, I don't need nerfing, honest. Or maybe I just keep stum, and take a hit for the greater good <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Mimsi 65 troub</P>

Emerix

04-25-2006, 05:15 PM

<DIV>It is dramatic . It is very dramatic . 30 % less damage is dramatic for me at least . Yes i tried it against solo stuff , too . If i dont could the procs i do about 30 % less damage . and im certainly not a crappy troubador. And i do have master nukes and such . This update will make me quit if they bring it out as it is now .</DIV>

Cuz

04-25-2006, 05:28 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <DIV>It is dramatic . It is very dramatic . 30 % less damage is dramatic for me at least . Yes i tried it against solo stuff , too . If i dont could the procs i do about 30 % less damage . and im certainly not a crappy troubador. And i do have master nukes and such . <FONT color=#ff0000>This update will make me quit if they bring it out as it is now .</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's a bit dramatic.

Bassist

04-25-2006, 06:12 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Snublefot wrote:<div>5-15% was in solo against solo target mobs. Its a nerf, but nowhere as dramatic as some here want it to be.</div><hr></blockquote>Snuble, I think I laid out pretty much how much would be lost in terms of DPS, so I'd like to know where the actual number is. For me it's higher than 5-15% because I've put all of my moonstones and Master trades into buffs/debuffs. So, I only get around 150DPS, and I calculated the loss to be 20DPS. Not saying I'm right or wrong, just want to see what numbers you're seeing. I get a little over 20 DPS loss if I don't use Aria's soloing. Also, I feel 15% is a large number when working from the lower end of the DPS spectrum.</div>

Trabbart

04-25-2006, 06:20 PM

<P>Actually its Not overdramatic. I almost didnt reply on this thread because i am so near to not giving a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore. </P> <P>Lets look at the troubador situation realistically. We are a support class arent we?? welll ARE we??</P> <P> </P> <P>What support do we give groups really? Are we the unique class providing this? Are we doing the best or even a good job?</P> <P>- Evac: Everyone and their mother has evac, there are even evac potions now, so almost irrelevant. </P> <P>- Jetsters Cap Interesting single target spell, requires good coordination but good spell. Sadly its broken atm (description doenst give what it says)</P> <P>- Track All scouts have this, so good feature , however not unique</P> <P>- Disarm trap All scouts have this, so good feature , however not unique</P> <P>- Sta and Str buff Solo it can be usefull, in groups it has possibilties if tank isnt capped allready (often they are) On raids Useless since we are in casters group. So imho limited use at best</P> <P>- Haste for mellee To little haste to make an impact. On raids useless. Solo useless since we are not melleers anymore by design</P> <P>- Defense buff </P> <P>- Procs on magic dmg </P> <P>- Improvement of casting skills </P> <P>- Mana song </P> <P>- Regeneration song</P> <P>- 2 diff songs that up resists </P> <P>- Debuffs of str/sta and offensive skills</P> <P>- Debuff of speed and mental resists</P>

Trabbart

04-25-2006, 06:20 PM

Godzmodi

04-25-2006, 06:49 PM

<blockquote><hr>Trabbart wrote:<div></div> <p>Actually its Not overdramatic. I almost didnt reply on this thread because i am so near to not giving a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore. </p> <p>Lets look at the troubador situation realistically. We are a support class arent we?? welll ARE we??</p> <p>What support do we give groups really? Are we the unique class providing this? Are we doing the best or even a good job?</p> <p>- Evac: Everyone and their mother has evac, there are even evac potions now, so almost irrelevant. </p> <p>- Jetsters Cap Interesting single target spell, requires good coordination but good spell. Sadly its broken atm (description doenst give what it says)</p> <p>- Track All scouts have this, so good feature , however not unique</p> <p>- Disarm trap All scouts have this, so good feature , however not unique</p> <p>- Sta and Str buff Solo it can be usefull, in groups it has possibilties if tank isnt capped allready (often they are) On raids Useless since we are in casters group. So imho limited use at best</p> <p>- Haste for mellee To little haste to make an impact. On raids useless. Solo useless since we are not melleers anymore by design</p> <p>- Defense buff </p> <p>- Procs on magic dmg </p> <p>- Improvement of casting skills </p> <p>- Mana song </p> <p>- Regeneration song</p> <p>- 2 diff songs that up resists </p> <p>- Debuffs of str/sta and offensive skills</p> <p>- Debuff of speed and mental resists</p><hr></blockquote> - Sta and Str buff Solo it can be usefull, in groups it has possibilties if tank isnt capped allready (often they are) On raids Useless since we are in casters group. So imho limited use at best i always have this up in raids. how is STA useless. SPECIALLY for mages. plus MOST mobs have aoes. ya sta is good. <div></div>

IKS_Nels

04-25-2006, 07:05 PM

<P>When against groups of mobs we can get multiple procs against them all if we get a proc vs the target as I showed in and eairler post you can get a 50% bonus to our damage from procs alone verses just 4 mobs, now against even more Mobs the damage goes up even more. the end result of them changing the pecentage of us successfully getting procs of off our Debuffs has droped by 20% on 3 of them and with our group instant stunn of stifle its effectivly 0%</P> <P>Leaving us a huge decrease on dps verses a group instead of having at least 3 of these spells procing out of 10 casts, the chance is now down to 1.4 not very good odds in my opinion and thats a 50% drop in proc damage at least</P> <P>Example Rather simplifed version</P> <P>against a group of 4 mobs you do </P> <P>10,000 damage from spells </P> <P>5,000 additional damage from procs </P> <P>with new changes </P> <P>10,000 damage from spells</P> <P>2,500 from procs</P> <P>leaving mobs with 2500 hp still</P> <P>meaning you are going to have to cast more spells to finnish mob off and in the mean time get hit more often ( That in anyones language is a Nerf )</P> <P>as For solo dps yes it will be affected but by 5-15% and that will still hurt, but not as much as losing nearly 25% of our group dps</P> <P>as for solo mobs</P> <P>we have 3 main debuffs to use on them 10% to proc</P> <P>2 minor fast casting Debuffs 5% to proc </P> <P>the stifle instant 0% chance to proc</P> <P>our main DD 1sec cast 15% to proc</P> <P>power drain 15% to proc </P> <P>thats 8 spells with bugger all chance to proc you will be lucky if 1 in ten procs where as at the moment its 3 in 10 chance</P> <P>then add in Alins Thunderious Anthem line a long cast, low damage, short range DD that I only use when all other timers are down</P> <P>that has a 20% chance to proc </P> <P>Need I say more its staring you all in the face from an avarage of 30% chance to proc on EVERY spell we are down to about 10% to 14% on avarage for every spell, Forget that 1 has a 40% chance to proc we dont use it solo at all its not power efficant and has long recast timer. and in Group situations most mobs are halve dead by the time it goes off or you get "target no longer alive" for the spell as you near the end</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

pera

04-25-2006, 07:10 PM

AYe its is a good spell to have and i guess it does help a little but, the extra 300hp really isnt going to mean much when they are fully caped at the resist cap but still get hit for 6k min in a lot of cases. <div></div>

vinterskugge

04-25-2006, 07:22 PM

<DIV>I've started doing some parsing to see what will be affected. I'm doing the solo writs in Bonemire, killing the blue con basilisks. These were only short fights, but it's a start. I seem to be doing on average 500-600 dps. Dissonant note is procing about once per fight, sometimes twice, sometimes not at all. It's really only a tiny part of my personal dps right now soloing. If you're worried about your dps dropping, I suggest dropping Aria and charming something instead. My little gnome buddy does between 100-200 dps on every fight.</DIV>

Vandileir

04-25-2006, 07:43 PM

<P>All I'm going to say is I am glad started lvling my Guardian again. I find it poetic that I switched from Guard to Troub after a nerf, and now the circle has completed.</P> <P>I dont want to be a buff bot or a mana battery, thats not a class imo. This class has real DPS as it stands on live IF you know how to unlock it. The joy of this class for me is taking a mediocre class in general and then through SKILL making it impressive. This change will totally negate all the time and effort I have spent on this toon since LU13 gearing up, learning how to play, and embracing the Caster side of my Bard. This is all futile now as I might as well throw up my buffs, run in and turn auto attack on, and go afk for 45 seconds every fight.</P> <P>Aparently a re-design wasnt a good enough turn off for SOE to throw at the dwindling troub community. They have to nerf my already weak DPS (when compared to other scouts save dirges) in order to satiate there lust for balance.</P> <P>Why? A developer or designer better stop whatever there doing and get in here right now and explain to me the DPS tier structure in detail. And then they better explain why this change is being implemented in this way despite the ovbious nerf to Troubs. This is an unnaceptable change that seemingly is not thought out with all classes in mind.</P> <P>Why nerf my procs? There not over powered to begin with? This change is not intended to directed at us, but you know what? it is? (and I suppose it effectes some enchanters also, meh)</P> <P> </P>

Killerbee3000

04-25-2006, 07:58 PM

this change will lower our dps, yes, i woudnt care about that because i decided to play a bard with raiding and grouping in mind (so my solo capabilities are not that important). but, if they reduce our allready low dps then they should atleast make our buffs better so we would be better utility in return for no dps.<p>Message Edited by Killerbee3000 on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

Ghetto Guru

04-25-2006, 08:07 PM

<DIV> First off I would like to say hello to all my fellow troubadors. Bards Own!! Now after reading a few of these post from ya'll I'm afraid I have to say I'm a little ashamed. I have been a bard from the begining. I have rolled serveral other toons of different classes, but I proud to say that I was the 69th Troubador World Wide to ding lvl 70. What's this I hear we can't do damage?! In T7 raid instances I average about 450 to 550 dps and that's including time spent de buffing, passing out jesters caps and mezzing or charming the occasional phoney epic. ( For those who don't know.. most Brigands Rangers and Assassins, when they not decapitating someone, range from 500 to 700. Not that they can't get higher.. but they around that range) I promise you I will break 600 very soon. Also, what's this nonsense I read about not being able to solo green con ^^^? Sorry, but I do it all the time. Granted, it's not easy, but it is sure as hell possible. We are the most versitile and creative of all the scouts. We do a little of everything and we do it all pretty well. So now it seems we loose a little bit extra punch with our aria procs. Big deal. We have so many different options with our aa tracks, buffs, and different gear and weapons we can use that I really can't imagine that we will be feeling the nerf bat as bad as the rangers did a few updates ago. Seriously people. This is the first time they have messed with us. Lets roll with the punches. We are team players. Our toon's are designed to make other people's toons better. You trying to tell me due to one change that all of a sudden we are going to be so much less effective?! Ya'll must be messin with them App 2 songs or something cause I can't get enough of my Troubador. As I am typing this now during server downtime I'm on the verge of reaching my 50th aa. I have run through a few different lines to check them out.. but honestly.. I think I have my toon dpsed out very nicely. I AM a little wary since I went all the way down our wisdom line what issues allegro will cause due to this change, but seriously, I'm not too worried. You want to be able to solo 61, 62 ^^^. Take yourself down the 1/2 way down the stamina line and agility line. ( In addition to going down all the way to Don't Kill the Messenger /wipes brow that aa OWNS!!) With my shield bash, bump, to clara's midnight tempo combo I hit heroics for over 2,000 right off the bat without them even touching me. Stun and run people. Snare them a few times. And don't forget to de buff!! With the added shield block stats from the stamina aa line plus the parry increases from the agility aa line, and lets not forget our avoidence buff... I can get my avoid. over 50%. Hard to kill what ya can't hit people. Keep the fate fellow bards!! There are so few of us everywhere. We must stick together!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. Maybe we might be able to con SOE in letting us use poison like evey other scout class now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have the passive aa poison song but seriously.. just imagine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Madam Nienna</DIV> <DIV> Senior member of Falderol </DIV> <DIV> 6th Troubador to lvl 70 on server</DIV> <DIV> 69th Troubador World Wide to lvl 70</DIV> <DIV> Highest Magic hit 4,890</DIV> <DIV> Highest Melee hit 4,709</DIV> <DIV>pps. To all you pre lvl 58 troubadors crying about the nerf to our Procs.. well.. ya'll don't know about Precision of the Maestro do ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

Snublefot

04-25-2006, 08:23 PM

<P>My observation is about where Vinterskugge have them. Its just not procing enough during current burst damage cycles to make it that much of a diffrence. I dont reach Vinterskugges numbers without using Maestro and chaining debuffs tough :p A "normal" fight its between 350 and 400, regardless of Aria up or not. </P> <P>"Normal fight" 10% Steal Essence, 9% Sandras Incursion, 24% Pierce, 24% Shrill, 8% Noble blade, 6% Elis, 8% Dissonant, 5% Dancing Blade, 7% Alins Note</P> <P>Maestro: 7% Steal Essence, 4% Incursion, 5% Pierce, 46% Precise Note, 12% Shrill, 5% Noble blade, 4% Kiens, 6% Elis, 5% Dissonant, 5% Alins</P> <P>Yeah, it sucks to lose a little damage, but Dissonant is too random in its nature already to have the real practical influnce on my damage. Its a nice little extra. Just like a procing weapon. Live or die solo will be more influenced by the random rolls for min/max damage. </P> <P>As I said in the start, if we should gain some dps (and I think we should :p), adjusting some of the nukes or combat arts should have priority. That would be damage you could rely on.</P>

Trabbart

04-25-2006, 08:44 PM

<P>I dont think he is overreacting or being dramatic at all. I almost wasnt going to respond to this thread or the upcoming change because i dont care anymore. I dont care anymore because i can't care anymore. Change after change after change and Lu after Lu i have watched my class deteriorate into the impotent buff bot it is now. Lu after Lu i looked eagerly to see if they finally were gonna put it right. (instruments anyone?) but that energy is gone.</P> <P>Dps we are not but REAL group support we are not either. Everybody and their mom has (the same) "support" buffs and utility. Which are often better and more usefull than ours. Mezz is on its way out since KOS and this latest proc change "proposal" is just another sign of how much thought is put into this "support" class. We are a niche class that provides crumbs to the banquet.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only thing that keeps me (and prolly many of you) going is the history of what we were and the promise of what we could be.</P> <P> </P> <P>But soe doesnt care, so why should i.</P> <P> </P> <P>This change will come and this board will be even less active than it is today. (We are the least active board of them all, makes you wonder doesnt it)</P> <P> </P> <P>Ikikik, Troubador (starting to look forward to the lifechanging betrayal), Splitpaw</P> <P> </P>

Trabbart

04-25-2006, 08:48 PM

<DIV>I just discovered that i made many posts (unfinished ones) srry about that . Only the one just before this i wanted to submit.</DIV>

Cuz

04-25-2006, 09:05 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trabbart wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just discovered that i made many posts (unfinished ones) srry about that . Only the one just before this i wanted to submit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You had me rubbing my eyes in confusion for a sec there :p

Myk

04-25-2006, 09:06 PM

<DIV>This change will have its greatest effect when we solo which is the area where we are the weakest. If SOE is making the change just out of consistency's sake (to be in-line with melee procs) without considering the true consequences, I feel they are making a mistake. Troubs already represent one of the rarest classes in the game, and making a change like this will prompt even fewer people to roll troubs and may even prompt some higher level troubs who mostly solo to quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I mostly raid, so the changes won't be very severe to my playstyle, but I solo on occasion to work on quests, and that will be more difficult than it already is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, this is the first time I have ever voiced any displeasure with a change to my class. I hope SOE takes our concerns seriously.</DIV>

Trabbart

04-25-2006, 09:22 PM

<DIV>Btw, an afterthought. How many of you that parse have raid gear and mostly masters? Cos bear in mind that the balancing is supposed to be centered around your average troubador. Some adept III's one or 2 masters, many adept 1's and maybe some fabled items but not many.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not everyone is supertrouper. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well of ofcourse i AM.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ikikik (Wondering if next year people will tell tales of a long forgotten class that had a yellow hat)</DIV>

Cuz

04-25-2006, 10:51 PM

<DIV>Hmmmm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53013" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53013</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Pins

04-25-2006, 11:13 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've started doing some parsing to see what will be affected. I'm doing the solo writs in Bonemire, killing the blue con basilisks. These were only short fights, but it's a start. I seem to be doing on average 500-600 dps. Dissonant note is procing about once per fight, sometimes twice, sometimes not at all. It's really only a tiny part of my personal dps right now soloing. If you're worried about your dps dropping, I suggest dropping Aria and charming something instead. My little gnome buddy does between 100-200 dps on every fight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Psst, Corspe Flames/Candles in bonemire, charm one, then never worry about your own personal DPS again while soloing in bonemire.

Bassist

04-26-2006, 12:25 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Snublefot wrote:<div></div> <p>My observation is about where Vinterskugge have them. Its just not procing enough during current burst damage cycles to make it that much of a diffrence. I dont reach Vinterskugges numbers without using Maestro and chaining debuffs tough :p A "normal" fight its between 350 and 400, regardless of Aria up or not. </p> <p>"Normal fight" 10% Steal Essence, 9% Sandras Incursion, 24% Pierce, 24% Shrill, 8% Noble blade, 6% Elis, 8% Dissonant, 5% Dancing Blade, 7% Alins Note</p> <p>Maestro: 7% Steal Essence, 4% Incursion, 5% Pierce, 46% Precise Note, 12% Shrill, 5% Noble blade, 4% Kiens, 6% Elis, 5% Dissonant, 5% Alins</p> <p>Yeah, it sucks to lose a little damage, but Dissonant is too random in its nature already to have the real practical influnce on my damage. Its a nice little extra. Just like a procing weapon. Live or die solo will be more influenced by the random rolls for min/max damage. </p> <p>As I said in the start, if we should gain some dps (and I think we should :p), adjusting some of the nukes or combat arts should have priority. That would be damage you could rely on.</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I have all Adept I in damage spells, Master and Adept III in buffs spells. So my DPS (right now) is much lower and I'm feeling it when solo. Sure, I won't feel it once I start upgrading damage spells/abilities. If it affects me, and I do have some nice items and the buffs don't hurt, then it will sure as heck hit the non-raiding troubs much more. Yes, it can be abused. How many troubs haven't spiked for almost 30 seconds at 1200 DPS using PoM and AoE buffs on a large encounter? Throw in Aria's and you can add another 300 DPS.My main complaint is that recovery timers aren't accounted for. Fine, I'll use more power to get the same number of procs. Fine, I'll do less damage. I feel sorry for the up-and-coming troubs. But, at least let my proc percentage be the same over time as everyone else. Given the complete lack of response we have nothing to tell us what this is based on. Prepend a "For now" or some other term to make it non-binding, but I'd just like to know what the change is taking into account.Oh, I found one good thing: Easier to choose buffs in the MT group if you do wind up with no dirge <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

vinterskugge

04-26-2006, 12:25 AM

<DIV>I'll give them a go. I usually just pick up one of the Drednever guards.</DIV>

vinterskugge

04-26-2006, 12:31 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> <P>My observation is about where Vinterskugge have them. Its just not procing enough during current burst damage cycles to make it that much of a diffrence. I dont reach Vinterskugges numbers without using Maestro and chaining debuffs tough :p A "normal" fight its between 350 and 400, regardless of Aria up or not. </P> <P>"Normal fight" 10% Steal Essence, 9% Sandras Incursion, 24% Pierce, 24% Shrill, 8% Noble blade, 6% Elis, 8% Dissonant, 5% Dancing Blade, 7% Alins Note</P> <P>Maestro: 7% Steal Essence, 4% Incursion, 5% Pierce, 46% Precise Note, 12% Shrill, 5% Noble blade, 4% Kiens, 6% Elis, 5% Dissonant, 5% Alins</P> <P>Yeah, it sucks to lose a little damage, but Dissonant is too random in its nature already to have the real practical influnce on my damage. Its a nice little extra. Just like a procing weapon. Live or die solo will be more influenced by the random rolls for min/max damage. </P> <P>As I said in the start, if we should gain some dps (and I think we should :p), adjusting some of the nukes or combat arts should have priority. That would be damage you could rely on.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I actually pretty much never use Precision. The reason I do so much damage is largely down to all my masters and weapons (2 duel wields with 60+ damage rating, 46% haste, capped STR, huge autoattack damage).</P> <P>I solo a lot of writs, and my current buff setup is Raxxy's, Daelis, Bria's and Quiron's to minimise downtime, and charm.</P>

Mimsi

04-26-2006, 03:35 AM

<DIV>Ok, so we've established, if you're kitted out in fabled, have all masters, a selection of T7 incredible weaponry, top end haste, a specific AA line and 50AAs to invest, work in a specific zone with a specific pet then you'll cope, and the impact will be minimal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure this helps everyone, though, or maybe I'm the only one that can't tick all those boxes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep the info coming testers, it's greatly appreciated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mims</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Mimsi on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 PM</span>

vinterskugge

04-26-2006, 03:42 AM

<DIV>My AA choices are all geared towards raiding. In theory I could take different lines giving me increased dps and survivability in solo situations. And I'm sure you can find a good pet to use in any zone, just test different ones out and see how things go,</DIV>

Aus_Festiv

04-26-2006, 11:32 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Mimsi wrote:<div></div> <div>Ok, so we've established, if you're kitted out in fabled, have all masters, a selection of T7 incredible weaponry, top end haste, a specific AA line and 50AAs to invest, work in a specific zone with a specific pet then you'll cope, and the impact will be minimal.</div> <hr></blockquote>Interesting.I think its valuable to remember that as the game ages and the level cap is raised (iirc EQ2 was designed with an ultimate cap of lvl 200 in mind) more and more players will reach the level of DPS implied in the above post.Could SOE possibly be covering themselves against a perceived future imbalance problem? Better to nerf now than wait till later when everyone is uber and have an even more gnashing of teeth.Ick, I feel dirty, did I really try and defend this change? Dont hate me.</div>

Cuz

04-26-2006, 06:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mimsi wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, so we've established, if you're kitted out in fabled, have all masters, a selection of T7 incredible weaponry, top end haste, a specific AA line and 50AAs to invest, work in a specific zone with a specific pet then you'll cope, and the impact will be minimal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure this helps everyone, though, or maybe I'm the only one that can't tick all those boxes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep the info coming testers, it's greatly appreciated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mims</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Mimsi on <SPAN class=date_text>04-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:35 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Go to the coercer boards, find the thread where they pretty much list all the best mobs to charm in each zone. For instance the Hags in EL can outdamage my troub. </P>

Emerix

04-26-2006, 07:15 PM

<DIV>Festivus . no offense really but theres nothing broken yet . at least not till they release the LU . Scafloc is certainly one of the best if not the best troubador worldwide . you shouldnt compare the best with the normal players . In every game people with top eqipment are better off than the huge mass of people . There will always be stuff normal people cant reach . maybe because they give up too early . And even if - SOE should not make the came for the high end players but for the majority of people IMHO . and this update will be crap for most .</DIV> <DIV>Oh yea before anyone starts flaming . </DIV> <DIV>I'm second trouby to 70 on AB and have a good bunch of decent equip and masters . I may actually survive the LU pretty well . I'm just angry because it will cut my dps AND it will make the life of the more casual Troubys way too hard .</DIV><p>Message Edited by Emerix on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

vinterskugge

04-26-2006, 07:49 PM

<DIV>I'm about to try parsing in my backup gear, which is all treasured/legendary stuff that is easily available in KoS quests and instances. The only piece of raid loot here is my bracers from Court of Al-Afaz (T6). I can't really get rid of my spells, so I'm going to use my T5/T6 ones instead. These should all be comparable to adept 1 T7 spells.</DIV>

Snublefot

04-26-2006, 09:21 PM

<P><STRONG>There is really no excuse for not getting spells upgraded to Adept 3.</STRONG> Its not that hard to get cash in this game. Or just shoulder in on a harvesting spot and put in the time yourself. Or harvest what other dont harvest and sell. Or just harvest harvest shinies to sell.</P> <P>The stuff that drop in KoS single group playfields are pretty good too. Most experienced players acknowledge the use of a troubadour, so getting a team is not that hard. And getting above 450 int or closer to the cap aint that hard with pretty common drop legendary.</P> <P>The game require you to play 2-3 hours a session to get anywhere. There aint many raid players (the legendary fabled decked uber troub) that can put in more then that between raids. When you take away the time they spend getting cash for repairs :p I envy Vinterskugges gear, but not his repair bill <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thats where my gear is. Legendary with a few fabled drops (nightchord bp and boots) that can be replaced by legendary with pretty close effect when it comes to dps. All masters come from broker (love it guys, we're so few there is virtually no competition), and most of the non-master to adept3. </P>

Lynadianya Zeran

04-27-2006, 12:42 AM

<DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> <P><STRONG>There is really no excuse for not getting spells upgraded to Adept 3.</STRONG> Its not that hard to get cash in this game. Or just shoulder in on a harvesting spot and put in the time yourself. Or harvest what other dont harvest and sell. Or just harvest harvest shinies to sell.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Excuse me? First of all, I would actually like to play the game with the 2 or 3 hours a night I have to spend. I could group with my friends, laughing, killing baddies. I could spend all my time harvesting to find enough rares to make the spells, then spam the crafter's channel for days for someone to please please please make me the adepts 3s (I've got the ink!). Or I could level my jewler up to 52 to make runes for my Troubie. I hear so many people say how they make a plat an hour or something like that. One of these days, I might actually figure out how that works. Currently, I get 10 to 25 gold a session while soloing in SS (as I am not yet KoS material) which I then spend on such luxury items as t5 fuel for my alchemist (15gp for the candles).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To say there is no excuse for me not having my spells upgraded to Adept 3 is not very polite. You have no idea what the playstyle of others is, or their time commitments. You can say that you felt there was no excuse for you not to have Adept 3 spells as you had the time, energy, and inclination to put into the effort, but it is unfair for you to judge others and their adept 1s. </DIV> <DIV>I understand that this statement was directed at no one in particular (or at least I hope it isn't) and that hence I should not find it personally offensive. I just don't think that the average casual player should be told that there is no excuse for them not coming up with 10 plat to get 6 pearls, then 10gp to 20gp for each spell to be made. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have quite a few masters, ebon chest, some legendary equipment (nothing fabled mind you), HQ dual wields, legendary sheild (as I am going down the stamina line). Even with all of this, I still end up farming blues. I make maybe 15 to 20 gp a night in SS because I can't go after the "big game" double and triple ups. I would much rather group with my guildies and go hunt triplie up heroic giants than go "named hunting" to maximize loot potential and xp effeciency. I am considered a casual player. I can't come up with 12 plat to get 6 spells upgraded. Is there no excuse for me?<BR></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Lynadianya Zeran on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 PM</span>

Nevari

04-27-2006, 08:03 AM

Apologizes but it been a long day. It's 6am in the morning for me and I'm completly confused.Did I miss something? Is LU23 live allready? Why are some posters stating doing parses now? Why the heck do you speak about no big impact on dps... ?Or did I just miss the line there you say you got a full geared Troub, speaking about what you say you wield as gear and spell level, on test?Checking Live Update Notes.... hmmm no, not live. And even then... what is your point? Charms as the all-o-wonder fix? And that these changes to procs aint bad at all? Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I mildly disagree.My confusion remains. I rather follow hard numbers and it's a kids math. Between... zero response from the devs *hint hint*<div></div>

Snublefot

04-27-2006, 10:37 AM

<DIV>You dont need LU23 on live to turn off aria - or check what it procs for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I still hold my statement. There is no excuse for not upgrading you spells. Its a choice you make yes, but its also very counterproductive to dps - the very thing so many are concerned about here now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same holds true for any class out there. Rare harvest is free. Granted, we're not the easiest class to harvest with, but its not that hard.</DIV>

Emerix

04-27-2006, 02:15 PM

<DIV>nevarion . he checks out how much % of his damage comes from procs so he know about how much we will lose .</DIV>

vinterskugge

04-27-2006, 04:38 PM

<DIV>Ok, I've done extensive parsing to see how important Aria really is. Because I'm above average in gear and spells, I used my backup gear - All treasured or easily obtainable legendary. This is the stuff you can get from single group instances, and I assume the average T7 troub is using. For my spells, I used:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quirons Ecstatic Celebration</DIV> <DIV>Raxxy's Brash Descant</DIV> <DIV>Daelis' Dance of Blades</DIV> <DIV>Bria's Glorifying Ballad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of these are adept III quality and lower tier. They're roughly equivalent to T7 adept I's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every spell, debuff and combat art I used was lower tier too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To keep my parses accurate, I fought each battle in the same way, and used the same spells, debuffs and combat arts. I did not use Jesters or Precision. The mobs I was testing on were Ashengaze Basilisks in the Bonemire - blue con solo mobs. They were not mental resistant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, I used my last concentration slot for Aria of Acclamation. This was master II quality, I used this one as I assume most troubs took it as their master II choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a large amount of parses, my average DPS was 279.3</DIV> <DIV>30% of this damage came from autoattack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11% of my damage came from Aria. On one occasion it did 21% of my damage, but that was luck. On other occasions it didn't proc once. You can't rely on that to win battles for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next, I replaced Aria of Acclamation for Exhilirating Opus adept III. this gave me 20% haste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After lots of parses, my average DPS was 280.4</DIV> <DIV>36% of my damage came from autoattack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spent a lot of time parsing, and killed a whole lot of basilisks, so I'm pretty sure these results are accurate. I do not think soloers have to worry as much as they are. Remember, Aria's not going to stop at all, it'll just go off less.</DIV>

Cuz

04-27-2006, 05:17 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> <DIV>You dont need LU23 on live to turn off aria - or check what it procs for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I still hold my statement. <FONT color=#ff0000>There is no excuse for not upgrading you spells</FONT>. Its a choice you make yes, but its also very counterproductive to dps - the very thing so many are concerned about here now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same holds true for any class out there. Rare harvest is free. Granted, we're not the easiest class to harvest with, but its not that hard.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have 9 characters.

Emerix

04-27-2006, 05:30 PM

<DIV>Thank you scafloc . Now how will my proc items change ? You could parse some fight with the proc earring and the HQ belt heh =) SInce i dont know how to check how much damage came from what ^^</DIV>

Noguks

04-27-2006, 08:53 PM

<DIV>Does anyone know if weapon/item procs are counted as having a zero second casting time? I was planning on taking the agi AA line up to get the poison proc and I was adding in Aria's 30% proc off of the weapon proc in my calculations. If it is a zero sec casting time then looks like Aria will not proc off a weapon/item proc anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

vinterskugge

04-27-2006, 09:04 PM

<DIV>Aria shouldn't proc off procs anyway. I thought they'd already fixed that?</DIV>

Pins

04-27-2006, 09:15 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aria shouldn't proc off procs anyway. I thought they'd already fixed that?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's been fixed a while for procs triggering off of other procs.</P> <P>As for aria's, does it proc off the lv40 encounter interrupt with an instant cast time on the test server?</P>

vinterskugge

04-27-2006, 09:18 PM

<DIV>From the test parses I've seen it's not procced. I don't know if it's rare or if it just doesn't at all now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, thanks for the tip on the corpse candles. These things one shot my writ mobs!</DIV>

Mimsi

04-28-2006, 04:08 AM

<HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> <P><STRONG>There is really no excuse for not getting spells upgraded to Adept 3.</STRONG> Its not that hard to get cash in this game. Or just shoulder in on a harvesting spot and put in the time yourself. Or harvest what other dont harvest and sell. Or just harvest harvest shinies to sell.</P> <P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>This is getting tedious now. My coin gain all game for Mims is about 40pp, from harvests, drops, master sales (all 2 that I've won). That's <EM>all</EM> game - 2years - and I didn't care until a couple of days ago - but now I'm lazy? Nice one. /golfclap</P> <P>Here's the bottom line: <STRONG>Why should I spend 3 hours a working day harvesting to make my class even <EM>viable?</EM></STRONG> I assume you'll be endorsing the new Troubadour class description?</P> <P><EM>'Troubadours empower their group by singing songs of battle ... only not very well, at all. Troubadours must spend 3 hours a day getting RSI chipping at nodes in a thrill-a-minute lottery, with the vain hope to make themselves vaguely effective in battle. The not so lucky troubadour revels in mediocrity, and underachievement'</EM></P> <P>Well, I'll sign-up to that. Oh, wait a sec, I already have? That'll teach me to read the small-print.</P> <P>There's a triffic post in 'General' about a geezer that's levelled a coercer naked on app1s to 50 (so far) in a couple of days in order to make a point. Ok it's not highly relevant here, but it just illustrates the disparity in what we're attempting to debate here. Possibly.</P> <P>Anyway, I'm kinda losing the will to live. As the least populated board we wont have any developer input, rationale, reasoning, discussion, defence or, well, frankly any hope (vainly dangles Blackguard bait). In the 2 years I've been lurking about here (yes I've been content up 'til now, even with the LU13 'refocus') I can only recall one developer post.</P> <P>I have other toons but frankly none are as triffic to play as my gnome bard - I'll be gutted if this change breaks her <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Mimsi on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

Snublefot

04-28-2006, 10:52 AM

<P>The tank spent time getting their gear with enough mitigation for your group to survive and upgrading their combat arts.</P> <P>The healer spent time getting their heals upgraded. And maxing their gear for better performance.</P> <P>The mages that benefit from your songs most certainly spent time upgrading.</P> <P>And you wont? Its part of the game. If you stay at adept 1 or even worse app2, your making the choice of beeing a [Removed for Content]. Thats not to be elitist, its just a statement of fact. Spending those 4 hours extra a week to get one moonstone (and soon Loam - thats going to suck for up and coming troubs), and selecting a core spell for upgrade will give you that much more enjoyment of the game. Its just how it is in this game. </P> <P>The solo troub aint about dps. Its about using the stun, the mez and the charm. It takes time, you most certainly dont want to lag, and there is other classes that will solo things you wont dream of touching. </P> <P>Thanks for the parse Vinterskugge. Most certainly confirms my own suspicion. I'm not trying to defend SOE decreasing our dps, but I dont like the doomsayers. <STRONG>This change wont break your Troubadour. </STRONG>Hopefully there will be some Troub love in the future :p Fixing the +60 charm would be a great start :p</P><p>Message Edited by Snublefot on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

Emerix

04-28-2006, 12:31 PM

Guess im bugged then since the charmed things never do more than 1 k damage for me heh even the corpse candles . thus the proc loss will be even greater . and we still dont know how that works on item procs . i have a 50% chance to proc and land about as often , too.

vinterskugge

04-28-2006, 01:33 PM

<DIV>My corpse candles nuke for 6K, all the time. I had one crit for 8.5k last night. Our raid tank couldn't keep agro off it. I think you are bugged. For the record though, I didn't use a pet for the parsing, and did just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do you have a 50% chance to proc anyway? I think your math is wrong. You can't just add the items and spell %'s to get an overall % to proc.</DIV>

Emerix

04-28-2006, 05:15 PM

<P>Never had a pet do more than 1 k damage myself .</P> <P>i have 30 % from the aria 10 % from the best and 10 % from the earring . </P> <P>I know i shouldnt add the procs like this but to keep it simple i just did heh .</P> <P>its like uhm .. 0,3 * 0,1 *01 +0,3*0,9*0,1+0,3*0,1*0,9+0,3*0,9*0,9 ect ... but im too lazy for that heh</P> <P>i just did that out of pure boredom and uhm ... 0.433 means 43,3 % chance to proc </P> <P> </P>

Pins

04-28-2006, 05:17 PM

Get a master charm. Even my troubador on nagafen at lv40 can find a pet that can nuke for 1.5k. Just gotta have 2 things, Master charm, and know where to find the nuking pets.

vinterskugge

04-28-2006, 05:47 PM

<DIV>Does the master affect how high the pet hits? I have my charm at master and thought it only affected resist rates. It'd make sense if it did though, seeing as I'm getting such high numbers.</DIV>

Pins

04-28-2006, 06:19 PM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<DIV>Does the master affect how high the pet hits? I have my charm at master and thought it only affected resist rates. It'd make sense if it did though, seeing as I'm getting such high numbers.</DIV><hr></blockquote>It does, use an older tier charm that you don't have master, and compare the hits. You will see a difference. I compared my lv20 adept 1 charm to the lv34 master 1 i have, and suffice to say, the lv34 master made the pet do a lot more damage.

Warond

04-28-2006, 06:30 PM

There is NO point to this type of thing at all. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! Our damage is fine the way it is, no reason to club the seal when its down already....only reason I can think of them doing this is because of PoM + Debuff spam but....that only works on groups of down arrow mobs and is the only way we can deal with them without extensive kiting. = <div></div>

Bassist

04-29-2006, 01:26 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Warondom wrote:There is NO point to this type of thing at all. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! Our damage is fine the way it is, no reason to club the seal when its down already....only reason I can think of them doing this is because of PoM + Debuff spam but....that only works on groups of down arrow mobs and is the only way we can deal with them without extensive kiting. = <div></div><hr></blockquote>There is a point: they want to normalize damage procs to make the math of DPS easier. I'm not saying I like it, and I think it's obvious, but there is a point.</div>

shortfa

04-30-2006, 12:53 AM

The normalising proc rates bit is okay, i just wish that they put in something to make up for that loss of dps together with the patch, rather than just nerf the proc rates and "fix" us later. If it was an issue that's causing a class to be imbalanced i'll understand the need for urgency, the thing is, the only classes with alot of fast casting spells are mostly the ones with low dps in the first place. Most of our fast casting spells don't even do damage by themselves, so its just casting them for a chance to proc some damage. Well at least there is an alt way for us to solo, using scafloc's pet method, its just not a method i personally enjoy. This hurts my character quite abit since i have quite a few proc items for proc'ing when solo. Its in no way overpowered but it sure is fun. From the looks of it I guess we're just gonna have to rough it out and wait till they look at the troubies again and help us out <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hmmm, how can they help us out? Perhaps that what we should be trying to discuss here? More base damage on spells? Or better caster group utility perhaps? Group cast haste, mana cost reduction, inc. spell base damage perhaps? These are a few abilities i wouldn't mind having. Perhaps fix requiem, hmm.... Just waiting for the patch to hit us now, at least it'll help cull the growing number of troubadors in the server. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

Cuz

04-30-2006, 08:37 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shortfang wrote:<BR>The normalising proc rates bit is okay, i just wish that they put in something to make up for that loss of dps together with the patch, rather than just nerf the proc rates and "fix" us later. If it was an issue that's causing a class to be imbalanced i'll understand the need for urgency, the thing is, the only classes with alot of fast casting spells are mostly the ones with low dps in the first place. Most of our fast casting spells don't even do damage by themselves, so its just casting them for a chance to proc some damage.<BR><BR>Well at least there is an alt way for us to solo, using scafloc's pet method, its just not a method i personally enjoy. This hurts my character quite abit since i have quite a few proc items for proc'ing when solo. Its in no way overpowered but it sure is fun. From the looks of it I guess we're just gonna have to rough it out and wait till they look at the troubies again and help us out <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hmmm, how can they help us out? Perhaps that what we should be trying to discuss here? More base damage on spells? Or better caster group utility perhaps? Group cast haste, mana cost reduction, inc. spell base damage perhaps? These are a few abilities i wouldn't mind having. Perhaps fix requiem, hmm....<BR><BR>Just waiting for the patch to hit us now, at least it'll help cull the growing number of troubadors in the server. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Awsome post. I 100% agree.