Deagro song (help a wizard :-)

[Luna Ithil]

<div>Hey fellows. I am a wizard, and as every other wizard (that is less of a slacker then their tank) I struggel with agro.</div><div>I play alot with troubs, and you are a great class to be with  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I have a question about the  wonderfull agrosong. I have seen the decreption of it, and as I understand it, it is comprised of two things, a percentage decress in hategain (40% if i remember corectly (lvl 66 troub)) and a decrease of threat of 120 or somthing.</div><div> </div><div>Can anyone telle me how this threath decress work ? As I understand the consept threath is the value that determins were a player is on the agrolist, and 120 points is not an awfull lot considering that my my own instant deagro takes away 1400 points (and never shake agro on it self). So how does this threat decress work ?</div>

[Sanju]

The 40% is across the board. Anything you do that increases threat will increase it 40% less.The second portion is if you get hit, you'll proc the 120 or so threat decreaser. So, not much good if you're a wizard since you'll likely be dead in a couple of hits.<div></div>

[Kulaf]

<div></div>In my opinion the song needs an overhaul.  The threat decreasing percentage is fine......however the fixed amount should be done away with in favor of a percentage chance to drop one spot on the agro list.  In this way in one hit you have a chance to drop to #2 and not take any more hits.

[pera]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kulaf wrote:<div></div>In my opinion the song needs an overhaul.  The threat decreasing percentage is fine......however the fixed amount should be done away with in favor of a percentage chance to drop one spot on the agro list.  In this way in one hit you have a chance to drop to #2 and not take any more hits.<hr></blockquote>This is a pretty good idea imo.  Normaly most classes can live through one hit(most) but two and their gone.</span><div></div>

[Jehannum]

<div>I'd be totally in favour of making it (say) a 4-7% chance (app=4, adept=5/6, M1=7)to drop one position on the hatelist as well as, say, a 4-500 point threat decrease (at T7) - that way at higher tiers the % chance won't need to change, just the accompanying hate amount, in order to scale it effectively.</div>

[Kulaf]

<div></div>I was thinking more along the lines of 30 to 40 percent chance to drop a position.  Anything less than that and you might as well keep it as is.......worthless.

[Jehannum]

<div></div><p>That'd be far too overpowered.  It's meant to be a sometime life-saver, not a get-out-of-aggro free card.</p><p>At 30% that'd mean a scout or healer, who can typically take 3-5 hits depending on the mob, would be all-but guaranteed to drop a position regardless of anyone else's actions, and a cloth caster roughly a 50% chance (2 hits average just slightly less health than a mage has, in a good group).  That's far too high a survival rate for a mage going full-burn without regard for aggro.  Since we're all agreed that 100 points of aggro reduction does virtually nothing, we can all assume and accept that it ain't going to get a lot better.  At least a one-shot low-% chance to drop a position has the chance of allowing survival; 100 per hit received makes virtually no difference except perhaps to clerics - so long as there's another healer tasked with keeping the cleric alive, because personal heals will aggro more than the reduction's worth.</p>

[Kulaf]

<div></div>A 30% chance per hit in no way guarantees you a position drop......as each hit is calculated seperatly, no more than three tosses of a coin guarantees you of getting a head.

[911GT3]

I think the hit hate reduction should be alot higher, because my evasion is around 1000 hate reduction and that sometimes doesnt even do it.<div></div>

[Darkmage6]

You dont want us singing that song its bugged , at least on my server it is when i start playing it the mobs will attack the wizard right away at 1st cast even if its a debuff.I have tested this and last night i had another troub in party so i told him to not play it , we had no problems pulling same mobs from an area in ct hour whent by we gained some lvls, then i told him to play the song.Well every time the mob would jump off the guardian on to one of the casters or healers the guardian said [Removed for Content] is going on?? i keep loosing agro right away, then i tell him to stop playing another hour goes by and he keeps agro no problem.I have done this for weeks same happens my guess its a combo of certain classes that cause this bug, which ones im not sure.The mobs agro and we can't peal them off the caster till its dead if we stop the tank has no problem getting them off.<div></div>

[MrCanoehead]

<div></div><div>While I do agree that upgrades to the spell are basically worthless, from my experience the spell is working as intended.</div><div> </div><div>I group every day with a level 70 necro and if I forget to put the spell up he draws aggro but almost never when this buff is on.  There are several reasons why a mage may be pulling aggro that are unrelated to this song. </div><div> </div><div>Low level aggro - typically mobs will target the weakest member of the group first</div><div>Resisted Taunt - hitting the mob before the tank has landed a taunt is not a good idea</div><div>Overnuking - firing all your high damage spells at start of fight is not a good idea</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also if the tank is not a very good player or is lower level than the DPS classes he will struggle with aggro control.</div>

[Ballads]

Id like to see the proc fliped like - when group members damage the mob a 120 threat decrease. The pvp description of this spell seems increadable ! I like to here from some pvp troubs to see if it works as well as it sounds and makes ppl retarget  when they strike a non-fighter with this buff. dam i need a new sig <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[pera]

I like originaly during beta for KoS one of our AP were to cast a spell on a raid/group friend and the next time they would take damage they would droped by 1 on the hate list, but i htink you couldn't recast it on them for another min or to but that got scrapped :-/ it was a good idea though.<div></div>

[Jehannum]

<div>Chance for position drop from one hit (at 30%) - 30%.</div><div>Chance for position drop from two - 51%.</div><div>Chance for position drop from 5 hits - 83.2%.</div><div> </div><div>That seems pretty much like a sure thing for any scout and most healers.  Moreso for healers actually, because many could spam heal themselves if they were assured of dropping a position after 5-6 hits.</div>

[Kulaf]

<div></div><p>So you're attempting to show that after 5 hits you have a good chance to drop agro under my proposal.......well I for one would hope so.  Under your proposal you would drop some 2000-2500 hate as well after five hits.......so I'm not sure what you are attempting to prove.</p><p>A percentage chance is always the better way to code because it will automatically scale with new levels without needing any adjustments based on the hate gain of other classes that would be required using a fixed number.</p>

[Darkmage6]

I have never seen it work like that when i play it the caster gets hit over a dozen times, i go full allout dps and i cant peal the mob off of him.A friend of mine he is a very good tank with best (masters) in all taunts and tanking abilites could not pull the mob off the healer while my song was playing.the song was procing i have some logs that i have been examining and he used an entire mana bar, i then switched off song and hit him with blellows and he jump to me i then tank pulled it off me right away.

[Kulaf]

<div></div>Did he get a fail on Rescue?

[Jehannum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kulaf wrote:<div></div><p>So you're attempting to show that after 5 hits you have a good chance to drop agro under my proposal.</p><p><font color="#66cc00">Not attempting, did.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>......well I for one would hope so.  Under your proposal you would drop some 2000-2500 hate as well after five hits.......so I'm not sure what you are attempting to prove.</p><p><font color="#66cc00">Wrong.  Under my proposal and assuming use of a master-level ability (7%) after 5 hits there'd be a 30% chance -  <strong>1-(0.93)^5=30.43%</strong>  - to proc a one-position hatelist shift <strong>and</strong> a 4-500 point threat reduction.  There'd also be a chance to proc multiples, though of course this also is less likely than with your 30% per-hit figure.</font></p><p>A percentage chance is always the better way to code because it will automatically scale with new levels without needing any adjustments based on the hate gain of other classes that would be required using a fixed number.</p><hr></blockquote>Agreed, to an extent.  With percentages you have to be careful in terms of scaling, because you not only have to make upgrades meaningful, you also have to be mindful of the 100% barrier.  Adding damage as a percentage is easy, but reducing hate, speed, or whatever is trickier.

[Kulaf]

<div></div>Well if your prop doesn't have any effect unless the 7% chance kicks off......I think we'd be better off with the current setup honestly.  I thought yours was a tiered approach with a 7% chance to drop and an agro reduction whether the 7% chance succeeded or not.

[Jehannum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kulaf wrote:<div></div>Well if your prop doesn't have any effect unless the 7% chance kicks off......I think we'd be better off with the current setup honestly.  I thought yours was a tiered approach with a 7% chance to drop and an agro reduction whether the 7% chance succeeded or not.<hr></blockquote><p>Heh, my thought is that a 100-point reduction isn't going to do anyone any good in any situation other than one where a cleric takes aggro and gets warded and healed by a druid and a shaman to split aggro; a cleric's reactives will generate more aggro per hit than the Alin line will remove, as will any other heal.  A cloth wearer who takes aggro has so much more hate than the fighter that only a hatelist move will affect things.  A scout who takes aggro is - currently - far more likely to shed aggro using their own personal evasion/deaggro techniques, and a fighter who takes aggro is unaffected by Alin in the first place.  While a 7% is far from a guaranteed hatelist drop, I'd contend that a 20% chance to drop a position from 3 hits - (1-0.93^3)=~20% - beats the heck out of the current 0% chance to accomplish anything.  Perhaps there's a better middle-ground between my 7% and your 30% - but I'd think that a 2/3 chance to drop aggro in 3 hits - (1-0.7^3)=~66% - is probably a bit <strong>too</strong> powerful.</p><p> If it's a guaranteed thing and we'd rather just amend the status quo a little, I'd prefer to see things relatively unchanged other than the amount of hate shed on a hit, from 100-ish to somewhere closer to 5-700 (about half what we get for our on-demand de-aggro abilities).  As it stands, the paltry hate reduction we grant to non-fighters just doesn't work effectively to help the tank regain aggro.  A chance at a hatelist shift or a guarantee of a moderate but not overblown threat reduction would be far more worthwhile.</p>

[Kulaf]

<div></div>Well my thinking is this.....in five hits you are dropping on the agro list one way or another.  Either you drop one place down and lose agro......or you drop dead and have no worries.  :smileywink:

[Jehannum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kulaf wrote:<div></div>Well my thinking is this.....in five hits you are dropping on the agro list one way or another.  Either you drop one place down and lose agro......or you drop dead and have no worries.  :smileywink:<hr></blockquote><p>:smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Touche...</p><p>I guess it's just a matter of how vindictive each of us is to people who've drawn aggro... I'm vindictive enough to want them to die two times of 3, whereas you're in favour of a kinder, gentler 1 in 3 mortality rate <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think it's pretty much established that the 0 in 10 rate we get now is a little low though, regardless of what we respectively see as a fair fix.</p>