Bards vs. other scouts (curiosity question)

[Yamoran]

<div>Greetings, I am asking only to feed my curiosity:</div><div> </div><div>I know that bards are behind rogues and predators in means of pure damage output and lacking poisons, but do they make up for it with their amazing songs and spells?</div><div> </div><div>Thank you very much.</div><div> </div>

[WooTast]

<span>Yeah troubadors' amazing runspeed makes up for our low dps./sarcasm offActually, not much is unique to any class these days. I would not classify any troubador ability or buff as "amazing" for that reason.  Class blur is an intended element of EQ2, thus preventing any one class from being indispensible.But yes, our dps is at the lowest end of the scale.<blockquote><hr>Yamoran wrote:<div>Greetings, I am asking only to feed my curiosity:</div><div> </div><div>I know that bards are behind rogues and predators in means of pure damage output and lacking poisons, but do they make up for it with their amazing songs and spells?</div><div> </div><div>Thank you very much.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[TheFat]

<div></div><div>Quantifying the dps and utility of bards is about as difficult as figuring out just how useful that illusionist/coercer is to your group. If you're of the mindset that damage from buffs that proc or increase attack speed is attributable to the person who cast the buff then, sure, bards can be at the top of the heap in dps.</div><div> </div><div>Of course most players, for whatever reason, don't view things this way and think that's just some poor under-performing classes way of making themselves feel better. (and just so ya know where I stand on the argument, I tend to think "That's my dps you're looking at!" when the proc hits) So, if you don't view the proc damage as "ours" then what else do we bring to the table? We increase avoidance, power regen, health regen, magic resists, casting ability, decrease hate, we can debuff the str/sta/wis/int/agi or enemy groups, we can charm and mez adds, etc, etc.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers and assassins only bring their dps to the group. They really don't do anything to make the group better other than pathfinding (which bards do better) tracking (which bards also do) and trap disarming (again... bards do this too)</div><div> </div><div>Swashies and Brigands are the debuff machines of the scout world. They can debuff resists like nobody's business and can also group stealth. No real group buffs, but again, it's their debuffs that allow their group mates to hit harder and more often. They also have some pretty nice dps from all of their positional attacks.</div><div> </div><div>Because people's parsers can't track most of the things that a troubador brings to a group, most people just ignore it. The most noticeable advantages to having a bard in group is that you'll have less to no down time in between fights, the tank will hold aggro better and dodge a few more hits,  if you have health regen on the healers won't have to spend as much time looking out for those hungry hungry hippo casters that like to eat themselves for power, and again, you also get those great procs and a ghetto mezzer that can prevent a group wipe by taking care of unexpected adds.</div><div> </div><div>In my mind, bards really are a wonderful addition to just about any party though especially dps heavy groups. Last night I was playing my 61 necro and we had a group consisting of a guardian, templar, troubador, and 2 wizards. The power of that group was just ridiculous. Since we had 4 people casting (counting me and my pet) we were proccing like crazy off aria, we never had to stop for power because of the regen and I can't even count the number of times the troub saved us by using his 40 second mez on roaming mobs that were bearing down on us. When the troubador left the group we REALLY felt the difference. Power again became an issue and we even had a wipe because of some adds taking out our healer.</div><div> </div><div>If you're looking for graphs or charts that show you just what a bard brings to a group, or how much "better" they make things you're going to be hard pressed to find one. But if you ever group with a good troubador in an xp group you're going to start wanting one in all your groups because you'll definitely see a difference.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by TheFates on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:10 AM</span></p>

[Tanatz]

<div></div>Exactly.  I always find that people make comments like "wow, we're really cookin' now!" or something along those lines. What makes it tough to gain a sense of satisfaction about our class is that there isn't much direct DPS like say a Wiz, or Ranger.  We boost EVERYONE'S DPS a little / make it possible to kill mobs faster / decrease downtime.  All the little things that no one really pays attention to, until you leave the group.I've grouped with troubs / dirges on some of my alts, and when they leave the group, things definitely don't run as smoothly.edit:  I didn't even read the entire previous post and we pretty much have identical opinions, heh.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Tanatz on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:49 AM</span></p>

[Elikster]

<div></div>Aye, Tanatz is correct in this.  After playing over a year and half as a Paladin and peaking at Level 61, I decided to play a Troubalor and I found that it is lot more fun playing in that class, since you bring lot of subtle additions to the group.  It may be true that we may be low end of DPS, but if you get good weapons, that will bring you up to par as others.  But what we really shines is the songs we sings that helps the group as whole, like Mana Regen, Haste, Defense Buff and Attack Buff to the group as whole. And while those are constants, you also armed with debuffs and backstab attacks, which I get to enjoy, by sheathing and spring out from nowhere behind their back and sink the weapon deeply into their back, inflicting 100 to 200 points of damage.  And note, that damage output I mentioned, that is done with my Level 22 Troub, so it is pretty nice stats to do against the mobs in general.  Plus if you get extremely high AGI, which I am currently at 154, I found I can tank lot of mobs easily than I can do as a Paladin in that level back then.  But then again, lot of things have changed when I last went though those levels as the Paladin. <span>:smileywink:</span>I really did enjoy playing him and I am rising fast in levels right now, consideirng I only spent a week playing him and got him up to Level 22 right now.  He is going to be my new playing alt to play since there is so many Paladins, Guardians and other Tankers around and there is so very few Troubalors playing on Guk servers due to lot of people's misconception on that class.  Dirge are also good class as well, but there is quite a few subtle differences between both as I have found out.  But I really did enjoy charming the mob and turn it back against the other mobs I am currently fighting in groups and then once I clear them all out, I turn on charmed mob and finish him off just for heck of it before he realize he biatchslapped his groupmates instead of me due to me charming him. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Elikster on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:56 AM</span></p>

[pera]

I've got to say I love what the troubador class has become after LU 13 personaly.  We are very versital, but can shine quite well with casting type classes, ( crusaders are good for xp groups :-p )Just getting Jesters Cap last night (lvl65 teaching) I personaly think it really adds a good deal to our utilty with out overpowering us.Lol only wish jesters cap would work on the calls (ro, qeynos), but oh well :-p   (30 second cast time on call, 30 second druation on jesters, lol so it wears off before the call finishes being cast)<div></div>

[Yamoran]

<div></div>I thank you all for feeding my curiosity.

[SageGaspar]

<div><span>Just wanted to add, I play a swash (we debuff mob attack mainly, not mob resist, btw, but we do some of that too), and I've noticed my DPS going absolutely through the roof with a Dirge in the group. Just nuts procs going off all over the place. I actually had to cut back my CAs because I was pulling aggro with it. When I had a Dirge, Troub and Pally with Amends on me, I was pulling down easily 600 DPS on the epic x2 in Clefts of Rujark at level 54, nothing past Adept 1.I'm guessing Troubs do the same thing for casters that Dirges do for melee, but especially in pickup groups with the unobservant, it may not be as noticeable. Also, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but a dirge in a mage-centric group or a troub in a melee-centric group isn't going to be nearly so effective.</span></div>

[mook85az]

<div></div>Whenever I get a blind invite without LFG up, it's always from a caster or a group that has a few of them in it.  They know what we do.But I've got stuff for melee too.  Last night I was in a group with a Shadowknight, Paladin, Monk, Assassin, and a Templar.  I threw up my defense buff, power regen (everyone loves it!), str/sta buff, haste, and Aria (mostly for me, but taunts use it and a few others from the SK and Paladin).  So we have plenty of use in a melee group.As opposed to the group I had ealier that afternoon which was Berserker, same Templar, a Wizard, Conjurorer, and Necro.  The conjuror was on the low end of the group so I thought I'd help out with as much casting as I could.  I put up Luck, power regen (everyone loves it!), Aria, Serenade (is it really broken?  The casters were doing otherwise suicidal damage) and Defense (the Berserker was on the low end).  Normally I'd have hp regen up to help with the casters eating themselves in a group with only one healer.Being that the Troubador is my only character I have no experience in groups without one.  But when I visit friends and watch them play they just don't seem to go so well.  People get killed from aggro, casters are waiting to nuke to let the tanks hit off a taunt or two.  It was just SLOWER.  I love this guy, so versatile.<div></div><p>Message Edited by mook85az on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p>