Precison dps decrease

[blueduckie]

<div></div><div>In LU20 as they change procs PoM is going to take a huge difference.</div><div> </div><div>I already see on parses CoB can out dps PoM. Casters dont really get that many skills off with spells and rangers cant stream for chain procs now. Where as CoB a low delay weapon using melee class can pump out some serious dmg while chain interupting. I think PoM needs dmg increased and interupt added with it. Just my thoughts. IMO the gap between dirge / troub is starting to become more noticable. Aggro reducer nearly useless already if have dirge and coercer assassin or swashy feeding mt hate.</div><div> </div><div>Dont forget stoneskin buff is way better than Req of Reflect. Anyone else see this lowering the dps we add to a group.</div><div> </div><div>DPS buff > haste</div><div>CoB > PoM</div><div> </div><div>perhaps im over reacting but reducing hate song also is another hit on our possible best role.</div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<div></div>I like precision and REALLY don't want it messed with.  I believe CoB even in it's nerfed state is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cool though.  Since you don't need any power to utilize the damage, it's great for the times when power is low and you're burning a mob down.  Precision is superior for AE encounters though (especially when solo).  I'm fine with things as it is though.

[blueduckie]

<div>If it only procs once per CA used. Wouldnt that include only hitting 1 target also or is that not effected?</div>

[shortfa]

Heya Blueduckie, i understand what you're trying to say but i think our views differ on this matter. The changes to procs in LU 20 should not affect us much at all.There are no spells that i know of that hit mulitple times barring the Hail of Steel and the Hail of Arrows from the swashbucklers and rangers respectively. Therefore, those would be the only thing that would affect our damage output. Infact, in LU20, it would be our dirge brothers (and sisters) who will be feeling more hurt since their CoB will only proc once instead of multiple times on the flurry attack of their group members.While PoTM does help melee'ers a little (procing off their taunts, snares and debuffs etc.) Where we really shine would be in a group with alot of casters. I'm pretty sure that your statment about CoB beating PoTM in parses was done with a group made up of mostly melee people. Plop a dirge into a caster group (Tank Healer and Caster dps) and i'm pretty sure the results would be different and we will see precision taking the lead in the parse.Aggro reduction is also hardly useless, it infact complements the hate increase given by those classes you mentioned. Less chances of the MT losing aggro is always good (even more so in a raid situation).So cheer up, its not all that bad <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (other than our serenade nerf other little nerfs here and there)Kentarop.s. yeah, i agree that stoneskin buff is way better than requim of reflection. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I remain neutral on the Haste vs. DPS buff however.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>shortfang wrote:Heya Blueduckie, i understand what you're trying to say but i think our views differ on this matter. The changes to procs in LU 20 should not affect us much at all.There are no spells that i know of that hit mulitple times barring the Hail of Steel and the Hail of Arrows from the swashbucklers and rangers respectively. Therefore, those would be the only thing that would affect our damage output. Infact, in LU20, it would be our dirge brothers (and sisters) who will be feeling more hurt since their CoB will only proc once instead of multiple times on the flurry attack of their group members.While PoTM does help melee'ers a little (procing off their taunts, snares and debuffs etc.) Where we really shine would be in a group with alot of casters. I'm pretty sure that your statment about CoB beating PoTM in parses was done with a group made up of mostly melee people. Plop a dirge into a caster group (Tank Healer and Caster dps) and i'm pretty sure the results would be different and we will see precision taking the lead in the parse.Aggro reduction is also hardly useless, it infact complements the hate increase given by those classes you mentioned. Less chances of the MT losing aggro is always good (even more so in a raid situation).So cheer up, its not all that bad <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (other than our serenade nerf other little nerfs here and there)Kentarop.s. yeah, i agree that stoneskin buff is way better than requim of reflection. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I remain neutral on the Haste vs. DPS buff however.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Swashies have a 3-hit melee CA, Brigand have a 2-hit melee CA, Bruisers have a 8-hit melee CA, and a 4-hit AoE melee CA. Also Monks have a 5-hit melee CA. Though PotM is nice on encounters where you have the named, and a bunch of adds, and toss it up, a few seconds into the pull, and watch the adds get demolished if they're heroic, or hurt a lot if they're epic while in a caster group.

[blueduckie]

<div></div><p>My main concern is really that we do such crappy self dps we really dont boost alot to a group either. A dirge can make melee do some serious unreal dmg. I cant say the same for a troub with melee or mage. So if you ae heroics ok. Granted they dont make it one target per cast. However it does say 1 proc per CA or perhaps im misquoting it and only the first hit but that could also mean only first target listed on ae hit. On single targets PoM isnt a large dmg increase. So what else do we have...haste which is useless for mages and crap for scouts seeing as it is our only buff for them really now. Aria of exaltation which doesnt proc alot to account for alot of dmg IMO. Aggro reducer is useless now IMO. Dirge + Coercer or another inducer like swash or assassin instead ofcoercer and mt aggro is nearly unpeelable. Its for the entire raid to not just 1 group. My concerns pertain to raids not xping because IMO xping is trivial.</p><p>Dirge can probably increase a scouts dps by 30% Where a troubador boosts a scout dps by probably 5% now or mages by probably 10% unless on a ae situation with PoM and it working the same.</p>

[shortfa]

<div></div><blockquote>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>shortfang wrote:Heya Blueduckie, i understand what you're trying to say but i think our views differ on this matter. The changes to procs in LU 20 should not affect us much at all.There are no spells that i know of that hit mulitple times barring the Hail of Steel and the Hail of Arrows from the swashbucklers and rangers respectively. Therefore, those would be the only thing that would affect our damage output. Infact, in LU20, it would be our dirge brothers (and sisters) who will be feeling more hurt since their CoB will only proc once instead of multiple times on the flurry attack of their group members.While PoTM does help melee'ers a little (procing off their taunts, snares and debuffs etc.) Where we really shine would be in a group with alot of casters. I'm pretty sure that your statment about CoB beating PoTM in parses was done with a group made up of mostly melee people. Plop a dirge into a caster group (Tank Healer and Caster dps) and i'm pretty sure the results would be different and we will see precision taking the lead in the parse.Aggro reduction is also hardly useless, it infact complements the hate increase given by those classes you mentioned. Less chances of the MT losing aggro is always good (even more so in a raid situation).So cheer up, its not all that bad <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (other than our serenade nerf other little nerfs here and there)Kentarop.s. yeah, i agree that stoneskin buff is way better than requim of reflection. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I remain neutral on the Haste vs. DPS buff however.<hr></blockquote>Swashies have a 3-hit melee CA, Brigand have a 2-hit melee CA, Bruisers have a 8-hit melee CA, and a 4-hit AoE melee CA. Also Monks have a 5-hit melee CA. Though PotM is nice on encounters where you have the named, and a bunch of adds, and toss it up, a few seconds into the pull, and watch the adds get demolished if they're heroic, or hurt a lot if they're epic while in a caster group.<hr></blockquote>Hi there Pinski,Yeap, they currently do have alot of flurry attacks, the problem is that with LU20, procs will only proc on the first hit of the CA, so all those nice flurry attacks that would proc an amazing amount thanks to CoB will now only proc once. Our OP's first point and the subject is that "precison dps decrease". However, there is no decrease for us, since we're already just procing once per CA (I believe the nerf is for Multi attack CAs not Multi target, so our aoe's should still be safe). In fact it'll be the dirges, amongst other classes who depend on procs for dps) who will get hurt more unfortunately (Just stating a fact, not gloating about it or anything <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).While i'm not saying that we have amazing dps on a personal basis (I do think there is alot of room for improvement), i am saying however that this proc nerf in LU 20 won't be affecting us as much as some think it might.The other minor point is that our aria, procs on taunts and snares and debuffs, which all characters use. Melees and casters alike. A dirge's melee buff however, doesn't help a caster one bit. What i'm trying to say is in certain scenarios, dirges are better, but they're hardly overshadowing the abilities of the troubador, and neither will the LU 20 widen the gulf between our classes.Blueduckie,I think saying that our aggro reducer is useless is mildly harsh, it is just another skill that we can use that reduces aggro, instead of a Coercer and Dirge or another Hate transfer, we can easily switch that with a troubador and a coercer (we do better with casters <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) or troub and Hate transfer class and yes, the MT aggro will be unpeelable with the troubador and co.  Infact, since we're reducing the hate of all the members in our group (barring tanks of course), our relatively unique ability complements that of the dirge (Or any hate transfer class) in a raid, where the dirge increases the MT hate and the troubadors keep the hate of the dps group down. The hate reducer is also a proxy dps increaser since dps (both scouts and casters) can cast and attack more with less chance of pulling aggro. The troubador is ideal for the dps group. If one puts a dirge into a dps group to increase dps in a raid, who can he use his single buff hate song on? Or when a dirge is in the MT group giving the MT more hate, what use will his cacophony of blades have? other than to increase dps by a slight amount, (Probably 2 tanks a few healers in the group, or 1 tank, chanter, dirge, healers etc.).While the dirge might increase the scout's dps by 30% (unsure of the actual value) most scouts (other than brigands and rangers) will have to joust in most raids and hence will need that extra push to keep their dps up with the mages other classes that blast from the back. With the changes in LU 20, even CoB with a ranger's triple shot will only proc once, as will all the other flurry shots. The Troubador's casters will just keep casting and dealing damage (along with the nice extra from PoTM and Aria, which deals more damage per proc and lasts a slightly longer time (5 - 10 seconds more than CoB?)All in all, i feel that each class (Dirge and troubador) excels in what they do for raids. In single group xping, it will just depend on the group make up. We can't just compare single spells and say which class is better, we'll have to look at the entire package and the context in which the class is placed in. All in all, Bards are doing quite okay in raids,  Our soloing and Xp group peformance could use some looking into though <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by shortfang on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:20 PM</span></p>

[blueduckie]

<div></div><p>I mostly disagree and the fact i dont think is said another. With procs currently troubador can actually boost dps well. Sadly to say we are far from our projected tier for self dps. Even if you had str and int capped or every stat capped for that matter. Your dps is going to be at reject level unless aeing mobs with precision up and there short fights.</p><p>A dirge self dps isnt high but it is higher than ours IMO unless the dirge just didnt build up well. After playing both the difference is unreal in what we really add. Ive heard over and overthat troubador self dps is low because what they add toa group is accounted for. Well breaking that down youll see our dps blows even if you add what we give others.</p><p>spell procs / haste is all we have to modify dps. This could be nice indeed but they dont go hand in hand. With how rangers or scouts in general proc they get agreat increase of dps from us. Mages get a ok increase but it is rather pitiful. Aggro reducer sure its good if no inducers. However dirge inducer actually adds a stat. They should add a dmg source to it. Make it add int or something. Also we are geared for casters our haste song should be spell haste. Effecting heals and nukes all spells but not combat arts.</p><p>Is just amazing the difference you get with a dirge over a troubador. If a dirge was in a casters group. They wouldnt even be able to notice the dps difference hardly. They see some pretty procs but it is hardly enough to get excited about. For a melee and dirge it is different though. Even if cob doesnt proc offmulti hits. When a swashy throws up haste and ID with it. The procs dps is insane. Not to mention it actually blocks a named from using skills.</p><p>That is my opinion on it. As of current troub have a good use. Can put rangers near 1600 dps mark. A mage going from 700dps to 720 dps hardly matters. Do that x5 for mages and you add 100 dps. Your still getting out dmg'd by a guardian with a captains voulge in o stance.</p><p>My troubador has 27 lvl47+ masters every single offensive spell but ae nuke is master 1. My int and str cap on raids usually. My dps is absolutly pathetic for what it should be according to tiers. But i knew role of troub was to boost others. I just dont see how us losing dmg is ok. It does effect us trouly. Our song procs will proc off of our delay now. I dont know if this will decrease or increase proc rate. Our instant songs will hardly proc. Shrill and essence are pretty quick cast times. Not only are procs reduced to 1 hit. There reduced to checking timers. I cant not see that reducing troubador potential in a group.</p><p>The only use i could see for troubador is reducing aggro out of pity spot so the boosted dps dont peel while we add crap to the group. Even with achivements are potential to boosting dps or doing dps is looking pathetic. Is sad when a troubador can sit there only cast debuffs and precision once a fight and it have no effect on the out come. Our debuffs even suck. Dirge can debuff everything we can plus more. Encounter attack speed debuff is huge!</p><p>I just dont see how anyone can not see how [Removed for Content] troubs aregetting to be. If we cant make a noticable impact on a groups success then we suck. If we are out dps'd self dps or can say we are equal. Then we are out dps'dby what we add to a group and out debuff by dirges what are we there for. Aggro song when you cant feed hate to a mt so 1 group is ok on peeling. Buff elemental and maybe hp regen on a fight? Is only 1 zone ive ever even seen a use for rquiem of reflect. Stoneskin is good in 99.9% of zones on mt if not 100%. So sorry please enlighten me on what im missing here.</p><p>Power tapping mobs is useless also. So the dirge being able to heal themselves some or defense debuff line doing dmg is alot more effective in pve than us. Glad to know i own dirges in pvp but pve is what most play for. Granted i like being a troub i just dont like the feeling of being useless. And hardly good at anything. Also aggro reducer will become less effective with scouts etc doing less dps. Theyll hardly be peeling alot over just a dirge hate song let alone if had coercer swashy or assassin to. Can go all out with out reducer. Thus making us not as effective as another dps who would out dps us and the boost we would add to a group.</p>

[shortfa]

Heya,Actually i was disagreeing with the fact that as the title states, that our dps is going to be decreased with the LU 20. Which was what i thought this post was mainly about. The main thing is that we aren't going to be affected much (almost no difference) at all by it. Instead, scout dps on a whole (and classes that are reliant on procs) will get a lowered dps, while we stay the same. Our aria is still going to proc the same amount off casters and melee classes, our PoTM is still going to proc only once per hostile spell.I agree that our <u>current</u> solo and single group dps leaves much to be desired. However, if scout dps on a whole is being reduced (Procs only proc'ing on the first hit of multi attacks and proc % in relation to CA speed instead of Weapon Speed) in LU 20, and we stay the same (other than precision not procing multiple times on HoS or Hail of arrows), we're infact being improved due to the fact that everyone else is deproved but us. Unlike your initial view that we are going to be hit by the nerf in LU 20, we are possibly the only scout class who will escape relatively unscathed.We all have our own roles in raids, a dirge just isn't going to cut it in a mage group. Even for a scout group, having a troubador might be ideal to ensure that the hate is reduced inconjunction with a dirge increasing the MT's hate will lead to a smoother raid and lesser chance of hate peeling off the MT. A dirge's aggro song will also do nothing for any group that isn't the MT group, even with the additional stat and all.  If a hate reducer is going to be reduced in effectiveness due to lower dps, so will aggro increasers due to the fact that dps is lower and the general chance of an MT losing hate is lower too?I do see the advantages we would have if our haste song was actually a spell haste. However, this is balanced by the fact that might actually end up hurting our normal group opportunity due to the fact that we are so specialised. The current melee haste song can be useful in long sustained fights and i have had requests from members (When grouped with more melee than casters) to have the haste song up.We've had quite a few posts in our forums stating how to solo properly. While we're not close to being the fastest killers at present, we are able to take down mobs that alot of people can't. Yellow ^^^ heroics even, its just a matter of how much time it takes. The sad thing is, even a green heroic takes just about as long to kill as a yellow.Anyway, i digress. Sticking to the orginal intent of my post, the my last few threads were to show that:1.   Precision damage isn't going to be very much affected by LU202.   Troubadors are not being nerfed in LU 203.   Troubadors and Dirges just play different roles in groups, and can't really be compared fairly.<div></div>

[blueduckie]

<div></div>I am curious if ae attacks will still set off PoM and Aria on each mob or if it can only proc once if that staysthe same PoM will be fine and handy for ae situations however tier was supposed to be based on all situations not ae or single according to moorgard's posts so i find this hard to swallow at times. Your also right i guess it will have less effect on us than it may others and apprecaite your comments alot. However the dps we can add to a group will be going down unless its full mages then it might stay the same.