Troub haste VS Dirge haste

[Snei]

<div>Why is Dirge wanted more for their haste than the Troubadour haste? I see alot of people saying the Dirge is better for melee and the Troubadour better for spells.</div>

[jjhac]

<div>Wooho - I get to reply for once..</div><div> </div><div>Okay, yes Dirge, is much more sought after for, the melee types classes/MT groups.</div><div>Dirges haste, I have no idea what it does.. Their version of Aria, is instead of when you cast a spell on a hostile enemy, when you hit it with a melee based skill... I.E. Autoattack..</div><div> </div><div>Their level 58, CoB maybe?-Not sure of name-, is similar to our PoM, instead of every spell cast on a hostile target, theirs is a guarnteed damage, on every hit.</div><div> </div><div>Next, they buff AGI/STA?, it's either STA or STR, pretty sure it's STA. In a MT group for a raid, this is much more sought after, because the STA, provides HP, obviously, and the AGI to power pool...</div><div>Where as we, buff STR/STA, the STR, just goes to power pool, and damage... MT ain't gonna do much damage regardless.</div><div> </div><div>Next, is thier Stoneskin something, our version of RoR, but theirs is MUCH more effective. It has the ability to absorb one melee hit, weather it 1, or 10,000 damage.</div><div> </div><div>Last of all, is our Swan Song, which increases focus + all other casting type skills, where as the Dirge gets all melee type skills.</div><div> </div><div>That's all I can think of offhand, I'm sure someone else will clarify a tad bit more.</div><div> </div><div>-Cheers</div>

[Bartimaeus]

<div>Pretty much just affirming most of what jjhacke said, They buff straight DPS though instead of haste (meaning their auto attack hits harder)</div><div> </div><div>Their poison song is similar to our Precision, but the melee version.</div><div> </div><div>Their stat buffs buff Strength and Agility, instead of Strength and Stamina. . No really big imbalance there.</div><div> </div><div>Stoneskin: OWNS our Requiem, at least currently. Theirs procs much more and is a straight proc rather than a chance to proc a spell which has a chance to proc.</div><div> </div><div>They have a hate increaser they can put on one person in the gruop, rather than a decreaser to the non-fighters, this is more beneficial on raids in the MT group.</div><div> </div><div>However, troubs are very very good at buffing for DPS classes, they have aggro decreasers, we have damage procs and we have haste.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Hope this helps</div>

[K3mik4l]

<blockquote><hr>Sneiky wrote:<div>Why is Dirge wanted more for their haste than the Troubadour haste? I see alot of people saying the Dirge is better for melee and the Troubadour better for spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Dirges don't have haste. They have the dps % buff. (Well, CoB has haste attached to it, but it's only up for the duration of CoB itself).Why dirge better for melee and troub for casters? Well... take a look at few buffs:Troubador50 Aria of Exaltation: Grants the troubador's group a chance to strike for additional mental damage before every hostile spell they cast on a target.52 Alin's Tranquil Serenade: Places a serenading song surrounding all non-fighters in the troubador's group. This song reduces enemy hate towards any of the troubador's allies that they damage, and decreases the overall amount of hate that is generated by the troubador's allies.58 Precision of the Maestro: A short duration song that grants the troubador's group increased intelligence and additional mental damage with every hostile spell cast. While maintaining this song, the troubador is rooted and cannot make normal combat attacks59 Dove Song: Grants increased focus and improved effectiveness of all casting techniques of the troubador's group.Dirge60 Hyran's Seething Sonata: A song played for an ally that increases their strength and the amount of hate the generate in combat.59 Dissonant Boon: Increases the combat skills of the dirge's group.58 Cacophony of Blades: A short duration song that grants the dirge's group increased attack speed, with interrupts and additional disease damage with every melee strike.50 Tomb's Stillness: Grants the dirge's group a chance to strike for additional disease damage on a successful attack.Should give you a general idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Shield6]

Just my opinion on this, you have to be brain dead to use haste, I can not, for the life of me see when I would ever use it in a grp, let alone a raid. The ONLY thing it does is make auto attack go what, 20% faster at AD3.<div></div>

[Graives]

I had wondered about this myself (that haste only increases your auto attack and not your skill refresh)? if so why would you use it in groups when you normally just smash the skill buttons, maybe in long fights?<div></div>

[Thandi]

<div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">Yeah mostly on long fights, where your pow pool starts running low, then you can just AA until pow is up and then start rippin off skills .... haste is haste, but the MT usually doesnt want haste simply because it gives the mobs more chances to riposte/etc etc causing more dmg to the tank.</font></p><p>If the raid is large enough then there should be a dirge for MT group and a troub for the caster dps group ... but thats just my 2cp</p>

[pera]

<span><blockquote><hr>Thandial wrote:<div></div><p>If the raid is large enough then there should be a dirge for MT group and a troub for the caster dps group ... but thats just my 2cp</p><hr></blockquote>Agreed there really is only a very few situations where a troubador in the MT group would be more usefull than them being in a dps groups. Normaly this is pretty limited to arcane or elmental heavy attacking mobs.  Even then its is a streach to put us in there.  Even in the case where the raid does not have a dirge an enchanter is normaly more usefull to the Mt group than a troub.  I forget which enchanter it is that gets the increase to hate but they are the ones that subs in for a dirge if the raid is missing one.</span><div></div>

[Thandi]

<div>still working on my troub ( only lvl 15 , been playing for about 3 weeks now here and there ) but reading alot of anything that sounds credibale. So I love threads like this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lots o good info</div>

[Jehannum]

<div>Think that's the coercer, if I'm not mistaken.</div><div> </div><div>As regards why the dirge's "haste" is generally seen as superior, it's mostly about the supposed haste cap.  I say supposed because I haven't actually parsed to verify whether or not it's real, but the assumption is that with other spells, items, and relatively quick weapons a character gets "capped" in terms of how many attacks can be made in a period of time; hence the dirge, who buffs DPS rather than haste per se, seems better.  There's also some math indicating dirges' DPS buff to be situationally superior to our haste even if there IS no cap:</div><div> </div><div>DPS = dps*(dpsbuff)*(hastebuff)</div><div> </div><div>Taking some typical numbers, that yields</div><div> </div><div>DPS (without bard) = dps*(1.0)*(1.5) = 1.5dps  - 50% greater dps than unequipped and unbuffed.</div><div> </div><div>DPS (with troub) = dps*(1.0)*(1.7) = 1.7dps -13% dps improvement from original self-buffed dps</div><div> </div><div>DPS (with dirge) = dps*(1.2)*(1.5) = 1.8dps - 20% dps improvement from original self-buffed dps.</div><div> </div><div>So basically, if you have no haste either bard type is equally valuable for providing added damage, but as your haste increases, the gain for more is less than the gain from a similar amount of dps.  Since speed buffs (and especially items) are more common, dirges are effectively more viable in this regard than troubs, despite relative parity numerically speaking.</div><div> </div><div>One thing I haven't tested, not being a dirge, is whether CA damage rises when DPS gets buffed.  If that's the case, then the dirge's DPS buff definitely has an edge in any melee situation, regardless of any other consideration.</div><div> </div><div>In any encounter where the majority of the damage dealt is non-physical a troub can be a valuable swap-out for a dirge but the only time it's really a no-brainer is for arcane/elemental hits, this is true.  However, even for noxious fights, if (and this is a HUGE if) Reflection worked reliably it'd be fairly even priority.  It can sometimes be critical to put Alin's on the MT group healers, and in some cases we've actually run two bards in the MT group because a) we have more raiding troubs than most any 3 raiding guilds combined, and b) sometimes you have to try crazy stuff when people are going to bed.</div>

[pera]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Jehannum wrote:<div> </div><div>One thing I haven't tested, not being a dirge, is whether CA damage rises when DPS gets buffed.  If that's the case, then the dirge's DPS buff definitely has an edge in any melee situation, regardless of any other consideration.</div><hr></blockquote>I believe the dirge's dps increasing buffs follow the same rules as the bruisers', where as it only effects auto attack weapon damage, and not CAs.  From my understanding only +Str increases CA damage.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:08 PM</span></p>

[Snei]

<div></div>Good stuff. Thanks for the replies all.

[Aegol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shield64K wrote:Just my opinion on this, you have to be brain dead to use haste, I can not, for the life of me see when I would ever use it in a grp, let alone a raid. The ONLY thing it does is make auto attack go what, 20% faster at AD3.<hr></blockquote><div>Hmmm...brain dead...let's see....</div><div> </div><div>We were doing King Drayek (Fire and Ice quest) the other night and it took about 500 k damage to kill him. 23% of this damage (110 k)  was done by crushing, slashing and piercing. Without any haste (let's assume about 20%), we would have done around 20 k less damage.</div><div> </div><div>Another encounter....The Keeper of Silence in the Poet's Palace....</div><div> </div><div>It took about 40 k damage to kill him. 30% (12 k) from crushing, slashing and piercing. Without haste this would have been about 2 k less damage.</div><div> </div><div>Of course you can use other spells instead of haste and sometimes they may give better results, sometimes worse. But to say that one is brain dead to use it...I don't think so.</div>

[pera]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aegolin wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shield64K wrote:Just my opinion on this, you have to be brain dead to use haste, I can not, for the life of me see when I would ever use it in a grp, let alone a raid. The ONLY thing it does is make auto attack go what, 20% faster at AD3.<hr></blockquote><div>Hmmm...brain dead...let's see....</div><div> </div><div>We were doing King Drayek (Fire and Ice quest) the other night and it took about 500 k damage to kill him. 23% of this damage (110 k)  was done by crushing, slashing and piercing. Without any haste (let's assume about 20%), we would have done around 20 k less damage.</div><div> </div><div>Another encounter....The Keeper of Silence in the Poet's Palace....</div><div> </div><div>It took about 40 k damage to kill him. 30% (12 k) from crushing, slashing and piercing. Without haste this would have been about 2 k less damage.</div><div> </div><div>Of course you can use other spells instead of haste and sometimes they may give better results, sometimes worse. But to say that one is brain dead to use it...I don't think so.</div><hr></blockquote>Though i dont know about the brain dead part, but most fighers and scouts their combat arts do what ever type of damage weapon they have equiped so the # of crush/slash/pierc would be very scuwed by these abilites.  Also if a person is using combat arts the effective ness of haste is lowered considerable because if you interupte a weapon delay by useing a CA the delay starts all over, so really haste is only effective above 50% or if your not using CAs very much (long fights, and about out of power).  Other than that with what haste we can provide there is not much its good for.</span><div></div>

[Shield6]

[Removed for Content]You are relying on haste to win fights? Haste only plays into effect when you are out of power and cannot cast spells. It speeds up auto attack. Haste does not make your spells regen or cast faster.Some tips, Aria of Exaltation is hella good song at apprentice 1, amazing at Adept 3, at 30% each time it procs a whole lot.We got enough buffs as is to make a caster or melee grp better, why waste a concentration spot for haste. If you are running out of power that much on these fights, make sure Bria's is up and you guys have manastone 1 or 2.<div></div>

[Aegol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shield64K wrote:[Removed for Content]You are relying on haste to win fights? Haste only plays into effect when you are out of power and cannot cast spells. It speeds up auto attack. Haste does not make your spells regen or cast faster.Some tips, Aria of Exaltation is hella good song at apprentice 1, amazing at Adept 3, at 30% each time it procs a whole lot.We got enough buffs as is to make a caster or melee grp better, why waste a concentration spot for haste. If you are running out of power that much on these fights, make sure Bria's is up and you guys have manastone 1 or 2.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] even more. Did I ever say I relied on haste to win fights? Nah, didn't think so. And I think we all know that haste does have no effect on spell casting.</p><p>Some tips: Aria of Exaltation is a great spell but can break mez, so not always a good idea in a group situation.</p><p>Hmm, am I gonna choose Dove Song then instead of haste? Hardly any casters in the group, so better not. What about Quiron's Blissful Celebration then? Hmm only the MT really takes damage, maybe better not. Any of the resists song then? Oh wait, it's pure melee, never mind. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], guess I am stuck with my haste song. Oh well, better than nothing....</p><p> </p>

[Aegol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>perano wrote:<span>Though i dont know about the brain dead part, but most fighers and scouts their combat arts do what ever type of damage weapon they have equiped so the # of crush/slash/pierc would be very scuwed by these abilites.  </span><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Don't you think that that depends on whether your parser can distinguish combat arts from pure melee?</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shield64K wrote:Just my opinion on this, you have to be brain dead to use haste, I can not, for the life of me see when I would ever use it in a grp, let alone a raid. The ONLY thing it does is make auto attack go what, 20% faster at AD3.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Someone hasn't come up against many mental immune mobs...

[Shield6]

I guess this is where we will differ, I prefer to keep the grp I am in, of the raid at their best to do DPS since troubys don't put out a lot.I do understand where you are coming from, but I believe the other spells value outweigh haste. Personal preference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shield64K wrote:I guess this is where we will differ, I prefer to keep the grp I am in, of the raid at their best to do DPS since troubys don't put out a lot.I do understand where you are coming from, but I believe the other spells value outweigh haste. Personal preference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And that's perfectly understandable, but the group you're in would most likely vary depending on the situation and so would the buffs that you might use. </p><p>Typically, my dps group setup is: brias, alins, aria, raxxyl's and my self buff (i'm still debuffing the entire encounter regardless of mob's immunities and use the extra power pool).  In a mental immune encounter I drop aria (all procs are mental anyway), so the only two spells that apply to a group's dps are: haste and dove song.  The effect of dovesong is arguable, but if you happened to be more caster heavy in that group, then it could be something worth throwing up for gits and shiggles.  If you have even one other character that'll benefit from haste, then it's worth it IMO.  If you drop the self buff, then haste AND dove song are the way to go.</p>

[pera]

Dove songs effect probably are one of the most questioned buffs we have.  I do not know how much it effect casting skills other than destruption.  It does seem to allow the group to hit max damage on their spells with this ability up.<div></div>

[Mulilla]

<div>Just tested a bit with Dove Song, but it seems easier to land spells on oranges and yellow cons with dove song up.</div>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>K3mik4l wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sneiky wrote:<div>Why is Dirge wanted more for their haste than the Troubadour haste? I see alot of people saying the Dirge is better for melee and the Troubadour better for spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Dirges don't have haste. They have the dps % buff. (Well, CoB has haste attached to it, but it's only up for the duration of CoB itself).Why dirge better for melee and troub for casters? Well... take a look at few buffs:Troubador50 Aria of Exaltation: Grants the troubador's group a chance to strike for additional mental damage before every hostile spell they cast on a target.52 Alin's Tranquil Serenade: Places a serenading song surrounding all non-fighters in the troubador's group. This song reduces enemy hate towards any of the troubador's allies that they damage, and decreases the overall amount of hate that is generated by the troubador's allies.58 Precision of the Maestro: A short duration song that grants the troubador's group increased intelligence and additional mental damage with every hostile spell cast. While maintaining this song, the troubador is rooted and cannot make normal combat attacks59 Dove Song: Grants increased focus and improved effectiveness of all casting techniques of the troubador's group.Dirge60 Hyran's Seething Sonata: A song played for an ally that increases their strength and the amount of hate the generate in combat.59 Dissonant Boon: Increases the combat skills of the dirge's group.58 Cacophony of Blades: A short duration song that grants the dirge's group increased attack speed, <strong><font color="#ff0033">with interrupts and additional disease damage with every melee strike.</font></strong>50 Tomb's Stillness: Grants the dirge's group a chance to strike for additional disease damage on a successful attack.Should give you a general idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Just to clarify.  This is no longer the case.  This spell was gutted with the proc update.  You can only proc with the additional desease damage and interupt with your main hand every 3 seconds.  At Adept 3 its a 45% haste for 12 seconds recast 1 minute.  I believe the Troub mirror of this spell was affected by the proc update as well.

[pera]

<span><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div>I believe the Troub mirror of this spell was affected by the proc update as well.<hr></blockquote>Sort of, our still procs at the same % because its spell based but they nerfed it about a month ago from 1 min duration to 20 seconds with a recast of 1 min 30 seconds.  They also reduced the overall damage that it does on each proc by a good 100 - 200.</span><div></div>

[K3mik4l]

Umm, yes, CoB took a nasty hit <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I just copy pasted the text from soe classes page <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Troubs proc song still works with every spell cast, hehe.

[Dali]

<blockquote><hr>ForgottenFoundling wrote:<div></div>Typically, my dps group setup is: brias, alins, aria, raxxyl's and my self buff (i'm still debuffing the entire encounter regardless of mob's immunities and use the extra power pool).  In a mental immune encounter I drop aria (all procs are mental anyway), so the only two spells that apply to a group's dps are: haste and dove song.  The effect of dovesong is arguable, but if you happened to be more caster heavy in that group, then it could be something worth throwing up for gits and shiggles.  If you have even one other character that'll benefit from haste, then it's worth it IMO.  If you drop the self buff, then haste AND dove song are the way to go.<hr></blockquote>My setups are the following:- MT group on raids: Balletic Avoidance, Raxxl's, Bria's, haste and an appropriate resist song or Quiron's (over the course of a hard target's lifespan, that can save on quite a few heals).- Casting group on raids: Bria's, Quiron's, Aria, Alin's and Daeli's. If the mob uses AE a lot, I'll use the appropriate resist songs (dropping Quiron's entirely if there are no necromancers or warlocks in the group. If the former are present, it just adds to the power regen Bria's already provides). If the mobs are 62+, I tend to use Swan Song to reduce the amount of resists casters get on their spells (which is basically all this spell does), in turn increasing their DPS.- Solo setup: Bria's, Quiron's (ad3), Aria, Daeli's and haste or Balletic Avoidance (+7.3 avoidance is always good, ad3). This makes all the difference. If I don't have haste and/or Quiron's up, the highest mob I can take down loses a level.- Balanced group: Alin's, Bria's, Daeli's, Aria and Balletic avoidance. If the tank has no trouble taking hits, I switch Balletic for haste.<p>Message Edited by Dalinn on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:30 AM</span></p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>K3mik4l wrote:Umm, yes, CoB took a nasty hit <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I just copy pasted the text from soe classes page <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><strong>Troubs proc song still works with every spell cast</strong>, hehe.<hr></blockquote>...and also takes a hell of a lot more power to do damage than the autoattack dirge counterpart...