Is Troubador damage where it should be?

[Cyneric]

Really just looking for some feedback from other Troubadors on the current state of the 'balance'.First, let me say that I enjoy playing my Troubador. But part of the enjoyment is finding a sense of accomplishment in being part of a group or raid and actually having the group/raid benefit in some way as your being part of it.I have never expected the Troubador to be a high dps class, along the lines of many casters and most of the other scouts, but I find that everytime someone starts listing out parser numbers, we tend to parse below many of the fighters as well. Now I know that parsers never tell a full story and it is hard to calculate the benefit of some of our group buffs, but in the end if a fighter is doing 2x the damage my Troub is doing and is a lower level, inside or outside of my group, and my group buffs do not make the group I am in either do that much more damage or mitigate that much more, then I have to wonder if Troubs need an adjusment still.So I ask other Troubs that have been parsed, if they fall where they feel the class should be.<div></div>

[Jal]

Soloing my new troub (23) ive so far had no issues with small groups and even some heroics. I kill things alot quicker and using alot less power than my shadowknight ever did but i obviously cant take the same punishment as im not a tank.

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV> <P>Cyneric - We are bards ;p we don't have great dps anyway you look at it. A fighter up to I think 5 or 6 levels below you, given they have updated skills and good gear and weapons to use, should do far more damage than you. Auto attacking and high damage is just another way for a tank to control aggro. In certain groups I have parsed low and in others I have done rather well in. Most of it is substantial and others is just the particular mob you are fighting and debuffs... etc.</P> <P>Jalek - Scouts in general use a lot less power consumption than the mage, priest and fighter archetypes. Given that *most* of the scout classes minus bards are dps classes. As with tanks, they are possibly the one full archetype that will drain their power really fast if heavy taunts are recquired or spamming damage. With damage taking bards are not too good at it. Even if you match gear and stats with a predator class or rogue class the bard classes will take significantly more and heavier damage.</P></DIV>

[Cyneric]

Heh, I know we are bards. I know we are not supposed to have great dps.My main question really was simply, is our dps where we expected it to be after the combat update. Do we find it acceptable.I just wanted to see what other bards thought about our damage vs mitigation vs group buffs.<div></div>

[Andric_D]

imo no we are not balanced at all. our dps is too low and overall our buffs do not make up the gap. Indeed currently I feel more effort has gone into balancing mage and necro pets than into the bard classes. <div></div>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<P>ehhh, i guess ill agree with you on that then cyn. but in defense we do a great amount of magical damage and that can compare to a dirges melee dmg. on the times i duo with a 60 dirge, both our dps turns out to be about the same or one of us will out damage the other here and there.</P> <P>if you are asking if we do enough melee dmg, then no we dont.</P> <P>if you are asking if we do enough magic dmg, then yes we do.</P> <P>overall i think, if you look at what dmg each class does the best and stem from there, us troubs can keep up with it. I dont want to sound like a jerk but are you skills up to at least adept 3 cyneric? im guessing maybe that could sway judgement. :smileywink:</P>

[Seek]

<DIV>The short answer is NO, we do not have enough utility to make up for our lack of damage.  Yes, I know, we are buffers, not DPS, but I have played a troub into the mid-50's, and I can tell you, the buffs/utility we get do not make up for our inability to do damage.  Either we need relief in the form of less conc costs for our spells (personally I think it is silly that our personal buff takes up a conc spot), or more DPS, or the ability to use poisons.  Many of you may disagree, but bards in general are unbalanced, and not in a good way.  Our buffs are barely better than other classes' (if any better), we just have more of them (not that we can use them due to conc slots).  Bards still need some serious work, either strengthening our buffs and reducing conc slot use (I would prefer this option) or increasing our DPS.  </DIV>

[Nydysean]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the balancing that took place during LU13 was balanced at the raid level.  The reason I say this is because troubadors are a raiding class.  I have not raided much and have only recently started.  We shine in things like being able to take lower level casters along and them still being able to successfully dps (swan/dove song).  All of our abilities are put towards making everyone else dps.  For instance, which is better: A.) putting up your self buff and upping your magic damage by about 100 damage per spell or  B) allowing that warlock/wizzard who is a few lvls too low to actually land that 3k-5k nuke on the mob?  I think we all know which is more valuable to the raid.  That in short paints the picture of the bard.  Parsers will probablly never catch it as there are too many variables.  But if I remember right but one of the higher upgrades to the str/stam debuff drops an encounter's str and stam by 100+.  Now do you not think that this saves your tank?  Do you think that this may save the power of your healers as they do not have to heal as much as the tank is not taking as much damage?  No we are no longer in the MT group unless they need us for our arcane or elemental resist buffs.  That roll belongs to the dirge now.  It must be nice for them as they now have a roll in raids where as before the update they did not.

[Andric_D]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nydysean wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I think the balancing that took place during LU13 was balanced at the raid level.  The reason I say this is because troubadors are a raiding class.  I have not raided much and have only recently started.  We shine in things like being able to take lower level casters along and them still being able to successfully dps (swan/dove song).  All of our abilities are put towards making everyone else dps.  For instance, which is better: A.) putting up your self buff and upping your magic damage by about 100 damage per spell or  B) allowing that warlock/wizzard who is a few lvls too low to actually land that 3k-5k nuke on the mob?  I think we all know which is more valuable to the raid.  That in short paints the picture of the bard.  Parsers will probablly never catch it as there are too many variables.  But if I remember right but one of the higher upgrades to the str/stam debuff drops an encounter's str and stam by 100+.  Now do you not think that this saves your tank?  Do you think that this may save the power of your healers as they do not have to heal as much as the tank is not taking as much damage?  No we are no longer in the MT group unless they need us for our arcane or elemental resist buffs.  That roll belongs to the dirge now.  It must be nice for them as they now have a roll in raids where as before the update they did not. <div></div><hr></blockquote>a) I want to play everquest2 not everraid2. A class balanced around raids is broken for the rest of the game. LU13 was NOT about balancing at raid level only but for the game from level 1 - 60. b) Str/sta are only usefull to tanks if you are in the tank group - but as you state yourself we are not in main tank groups as we offer so little so in a raid group inparticular the buff is pretty useless. Troubs are put in just about any other group than the tank group. Additionally a decent tank would be maxed on those without our buffs anyways with the low caps on stats. c) The swan song does not work or makes no measurable diference against red mobs only orange mobs. Most raid mobs are red and even with swansong that lower level mage will not land anything more with swansong than without as far as I have been able to test - others have also tested and also found the same. d) It may be nice for Dirges but we are talking about troubadours. All classes shoudl be reasonably balanced not some sort of 'its your turn now'. e) what is the point of the post? That we do enough dps and buffing and dont need fixing? That your a dirge and worried that soe will break you to fix us? </span><div></div>

[Nydysean]

No, I do not play a dirge.  I play a 51 troubador.  It is a debuff of str and stam for 100+.  Thus it is put on the encounter which is hitting your tank so it affects the tank no matter what group you are in.  Yes LU13 was about balancing the entire game but it is my understanding that they primarily used raid content to do that.  Did I say that this was the correct way to do it?  No, I simply said this is how they did it.  I am wondering why you are attacking me here.  The above post does address the dps issue.  Bards do not do individual dps, they never have.  In fact our dps increased with LU13.  However, bards increases everyone eslses dps.  That was the point of my above post and the point that I was attempting to make.  I apologize if it appeared in any different manner.

[Cyneric]

Yes Balmung, all my skills 45+ ared Adept 3 or higher. I have all legendary+ equipment.I keep thinking back to Moor's posts and others, regarding the 'DPS tree' where bards were supposed to be on par with DPS based fighters if I recall in overall DPS. I understand that parsers don't tell the whole story because they simply don't take into account the effect our buffs have on other members. But I find that in many fights that I and other bards have been parsed, we typically fall below half the damage of a similar equipped DPS fighters, even when the DPS fighter is a few levels below.No, I am not looking for a huge increase. No, I am not looking for a nerf to any fighters(I play a Pally and feel his damage is right where it should be). I was just trying to see if others felt the same about where we landed in the tree.It may be when/if they adjust some of our abilities, it will be enough a boost. Things such as the recast time on the Eli's line, or the fact the power drains have little to no effect anymore on fights, or that our charm can't be used to send a mob to fight without being hit.All in all, I enjoy my class very much. I find that it can be a fun and challenging class to play and can do quite a bit.<div></div>

[Andric_D]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nydysean wrote:No, I do not play a dirge.  I play a 51 troubador.  It is a debuff of str and stam for 100+.  Thus it is put on the encounter which is hitting your tank so it affects the tank no matter what group you are in.  Yes LU13 was about balancing the entire game but it is my understanding that they primarily used raid content to do that.  Did I say that this was the correct way to do it?  No, I simply said this is how they did it.  I am wondering why you are attacking me here.  The above post does address the dps issue.  Bards do not do individual dps, they never have.  In fact our dps increased with LU13.  However, bards increases everyone eslses dps.  That was the point of my above post and the point that I was attempting to make.  I apologize if it appeared in any different manner. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry I misread as buff not debuff. On that debuff though it makes soem diference but not noticible in epic enocounters. Onyly one I seem to find a diference is teh processional debuff at level 55 and the resist debuffs. they do make a small diference. The str/sta debuff is also shared with dirges as its a base bard ability.</span><div></div>

[911GT3]

I have almost no problems with the dps of my troub, yes better dps would be nice, but not needed. You need to remember that your int is very important to your dps and to use your mental debuff because most of your attacks are mental dmg. Also you increase everyone in the groups dps, soo therefore you are also doing indirect dps whenever anyone else does damage. Also I am almost always in the main tank group on raids and it works out quite well. <div></div>

[Mawie]

<DIV>I would always love more DPS, but overall, I find that the higher in level I get, the more powerful I have become. Whereas at level (say) 49, I couldn't take a level 51 opponent, I am now finding myself able at level 52 to take 54s and 55s.</DIV>

[Andric_D]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mawie wrote:<div>I would always love more DPS, but overall, I find that the higher in level I get, the more powerful I have become. Whereas at level (say) 49, I couldn't take a level 51 opponent, I am now finding myself able at level 52 to take 54s and 55s.</div><hr></blockquote>problem is that abilites do not scale with level and the upgrades we get do not increase with in line with the mob hp/dificulty at higher levels especially as our defence is very lacking. I really started to notice how low my dps was after 55 and the spell add nerf which made several solo encounters I could handle quite a lot more dificult. IMO our debuffs and buffs help some but not to the extent that we are penalised in dps and I do not think the answer is just in re-adjusting our de/buffs but also in adjusting our dps.</span><div></div>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andric_D wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mawie wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would always love more DPS, but overall, I find that the higher in level I get, the more powerful I have become. Whereas at level (say) 49, I couldn't take a level 51 opponent, I am now finding myself able at level 52 to take 54s and 55s.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>problem is that abilites do not scale with level and the upgrades we get do not increase with in line with the mob hp/dificulty at higher levels especially as our defence is very lacking. I really started to notice how low my dps was after 55 and the spell add nerf which made several solo encounters I could handle quite a lot more dificult. IMO our debuffs and buffs help some but not to the extent that we are penalised in dps and I do not think the answer is just in re-adjusting our de/buffs but also in adjusting our dps.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, but as you said in the other post, troubadors aren't going to fixed until all of the other classes are tweaked because so many of our buffs are meant for others and not ourselves. For now I can survive. I am okay at soloing, and I am invited to group frequently. I still have not found our class unplayable.</P> <P>Of course I am not 55, yet. So I shall see what happens in a few levels from now.</P>

[Ballads]

 All classes vary on the dps scale in each teir as skills are gained in lost. Im lvl 60 and a daily raider who spends most of his time in castor dps groups. I never win a single parser of coarse but i did Pre-Percision of the Mastro nerf, and believe if i got credit for those procs now i sneak in a few victorys. Dirges often dps around us to not getting credit for CoB. (tho both can make top 10 most raids from droping these short terms dps increasers and spaming any aes.)  We are bards! We increase group dps not just are own ! If anyone ever challenges you to a parser tell them "ok we kill the same mob twice both times all out first time we drop your buffs for the fight second time we drop mine " That way you can get a more acurate comparison to who is adding more total dps to the raid,group, or even duo. As far as soloing goes we are forced to be creative maxmizing slow ,charns and mezzs to maximize are regen buffs, stiffles and stuns.  Some of the numbers on are spells need Tweaked a little (requeim,deaggro,power drains, slight +dmg to all cas and nukes) With these minor upgrades i think are class would be right on par with utility and dps to make them a valued and fun class to play. Other then that i could not be happier playing my troubador. <div></div>

[blueduckie]

They should make eli's and pilfer essence line quick casts like flawless shrill. I think they should add a sneak component to taffros so we can use piercing shriek easier. I think that would increase our dps alot. With 400 int / Str tho i can do 500-600 dps on raids depending how much i have to joust. Is not bad. Rangers can parse 1300 and all but if you counted the dmg we added to others in a dps group could prolly pump out 1k dps every fight. So our dps gain is gained through others. If you really want to  max perform RAID wise. Fill your group with 5 rangers. With aggro reducer they go all out and proc off aria / precise more than mages are for us. It is close but they are like 10% more procs constantly. Been testing it alot and i dont know how this is so but it is nice to use. Group wise we add so much with power regen and dps etc to group it makes up for our personal dps loss IMO mostly. I would like to see quicker skill uses and better way to use shriek tho as those skills are nearly useless with out brigand debuffs