What role does your guild have you serve in raids?

[SureShot]

<DIV>Hey all, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must admit I'm a bit frustrated by the state of the game right now.  I have played my troubador since launch. He is my main, I only have one alt, a lvl 20 monk, and I haven't played him in ages.  Anyways, I have stuck with my toon through thick and thin, taking nerfs, revisioning of the class, etc. on the chin, never complaining, just dealing with the changes as they come.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, since LU13 I've become more and more frustrated with how my guild utilizes me on raids.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My role: mana battery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild leaders find none of the other roles we were <EM>redesigned</EM> to play useful enough to warrant anything else.  Group me with a bunch of casters? Why?  Dove Song has no immediate and worthwhile benefits.  Group me with rangers?  Why?  Alin's doesn't reduce enough hate to keep them alive (rangers seem to have the worst mortality rate of any other class on our raids).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sincerely try to educate the leadership of the other roles we can play in a raid situation.  I resorted to making macros that explain to my raid group what each buff I'm casting does..."/g Dove Song is increasing your casting skills by yadda yadda and reducing your fizzle rate by yadda yadda."  Brigand says, "Only one caster in the group....give me something beneficial!"  I say, Hmm, ok, here's your haste I guess..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you all think we are broken?  Useless?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How does your guild make the most of you in raid groups?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sakbut Meathorn</DIV> <DIV>60th Troubador</DIV> <DIV>Tribe of the Seven Moons</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore Server</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<DIV>my guild uses me in the dps mage group..our usual makeup involves:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Summoner type - aria still goes off on dots/other procs  as well as maestro, summoners are dot fiends.</DIV> <DIV>2/3. Warlock/Wizard - IMHO warlocks better for dps groups like this..since they outlast wizards mana wise</DIV> <DIV>4. Illusionist - illusionists procs + mana battery + stifle/stun/mezzable adds</DIV> <DIV>5. Myself - aria of exaltation + dove song + mana battery + hate decreaser + healthsong (for health eaters) + maestro + debuffs</DIV> <DIV>6. Berzerker - im not quite sure how this started happening..i think its because of the group health regen CA they have for the health eaters combined with giving me a point to melee dps because of the zerkers melee buffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Windain]

<P>In some damage group.  Somehow now has a surplus of bards (3 dirges and 2 troubadors... usually only 4 at raid though at most).  So Dirge with main tank group, dirge with melee damage group, troubador with mages, and then troubador with whatever is left over (usually 1-2 mage, 2-3 scouts, 1-2 fighters, maybe a priest if they are lucky).</P> <P>When all the dirges were gone, they put a troubador in the MT group.. although I'm not really sure I was that much of a boost.</P> <P>Mage group:</P> <P>Troubador, Necromancer, Wizard, Wizard, Warlock, Fury (Conjurors with MT, illusionists with scouts, no coercers in guild)</P> <P>Just parse some damage with maestro going and then relay the results to the raid.  The mages die over and over without a troubador in the group.  Same with scouts (rangers, swashbucklers, brigands).  We are quite useful.</P><p>Message Edited by Windain on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[Sun]

<P>Mostly my role is buffer in mage group </P> <P>With mages in team im always have deagro buff and  mana regen  song on.</P> <P>Suntra  - lvl 60 troubadour</P>

[WooTast]

Im either in the MT group for the +25 defense, or in a mage group for the +dps. <div></div>

[osaka]

<DIV>Always in the mage group.</DIV>

[Myk]

<DIV>So far, I have always been in the MT group that consists of something like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard</DIV> <DIV>Shaman</DIV> <DIV>Fury</DIV> <DIV>Temp</DIV> <DIV>Pally</DIV> <DIV>Me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our guild happens to have few nukers and quite a few tanks.  Nobody has actually laid out a role for me, so I have kinda advocated a role for myself in the MT group.  I use the following buffs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  Mana Regen</DIV> <DIV>2)  Defense Buff</DIV> <DIV>3)  Anti-aggro Buff</DIV> <DIV>4)  Magic Buff (assuming caster mob)</DIV> <DIV>5)  Elemental Buff (assuming mob casts this)</DIV> <DIV>6)  If I don't need magic or elemental, I will usually throw up the caster buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want the MT to survive and believe that my buffs (all adept III) make a huge difference in the MT group, especially when it comes to resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the pull, I tend to stay at a distance and keep all the debuffs up.  The only ranged attacks I do (due to the power drain of the debuffs) are the bow ability, purloin for more power, and maybe an occasional shriek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV>Theres a few different uses for us in raids:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troub + 5 mages: We spike up the dps of any magical damage class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I have been requested for resistance buffs for anything minus disease and poison resists. Sometimes our resistance buff in combination with other classes in a tank group will allow the tank to be able to use gear that he/she wouldn't be able to use unless his resitances were taken care of. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>E.g. they may be able to wear gear to give them more hp and strength, or to beef up the other resists or best ac gear they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mana battery is a cheap excuse for people to use. If they really took a loot at the troubador class abilities most will find us just as, if not more useful than other classes. Most of the time, if you have the buffs (bards) and you have the heals a raid will not have to compensate much. Highly experienced raid leaders will know how to use a troubador class to its fullest. The mage group is a great spot, but not always the right spot on some encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are one of the troubadors lucky enough to have a killer raid leader, you will find out that the mage group is not always where you sit.</DIV>

[Dali]

On certain mobs (or in the event of Dirge absence) I get the MT spot, on most I get a spot in a group with four sorcerers and a healer.The advantage here is that there are only two Bards in the guild of raid level: the Dirge and me.

[Dingiswa]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>On certain mobs (or in the event of Dirge absence) I get the MT spot, on most I get a spot in a group with four sorcerers and a healer.The advantage here is that there are only two Bards in the guild of raid level: the Dirge and me. </FONT> <P></P> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Dalinn Ironhill,<BR>Singer/songwriter of Lowland Elites</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Same here, although there are no dirges period in our guild so I end up with MT duty. Usually end up running mana and health regens, defense, Raxxyl's, and then either defense or the self-buff depending on how many healers we end up with. Then I debuff like crazy and toss in PoM whenever it refreshes.</P> <P>I'm curious if any of you have found a use for Requiem in a raid, and if so, which ones.</P> <P>Kweli L'Overture</P> <P>58 troubador, Warlords of Lavastorm</P> <P> </P>

[Mulilla]

<DIV>We are a small guild so the 2 troubs do almost anything:</DIV> <DIV>a) Melee grp, playing haste, defense, str+sta and power, of course</DIV> <DIV>b) Caster grp, paying dove song, power, hate reducer, aria of exaltation and PoM</DIV> <DIV>c) MT grp (we dont have any dirge), power regen, hate reducer, resist, str+sta</DIV> <DIV>d) Somewhere helping chanters in mezzing duties</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used RoR some time ago (not much, thats true), when it reflected AEs or with mobs who cast a lot, now is quite useless.  As some poster stated, it may has some uses with fast dots, since the chance to proc is higher.</DIV>

[JackFrost]

I have heard people say that our Aria's is very effective in a scout group because it procs with CAs.

[pera]

<div></div>Very very few CA's can proc it not really sure how or why, off hand i know cheap shot will, but as far as i know that was the only one that could. I have also notics almost all abilites that dont actualy dmg the mob can proc aria's. tants included. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

[TroubadorMast]

I think that it will proc on anything that does not deal melee damage. Just by taking a look at umm... Precision of the Maestro, I have found out that thy work on the same abilities. It procs on everything that is not a melee damage ability. So stuns, and debuffs and what have you. As long as you don't make a phyisical attack with the art.Can anyone give support info to show they get the same results or show different things please?

[blueduckie]

<P>It procs off of poisons too. Aria is best on rangers unless LU18 takes poison off of bow but from description i have and feedback on test it isnt. As of right now on raids mages cant match our rangers in DPS. Most our mages are doing with troub and illusionist maxxing there int + double spell procs was only 700 dps by a wizard(we mez all adds and burn named right away if mezzable adds)</P> <P>Rangers however are consistantly 1k+ with a troub. With out a troub are rangers peel aggro if they do 600 dps. So we always use our troub for dps grups. If we have just 1 it goes for the scouts. If we have 2 it goes scouts then scout / mage mix. We now run mostly scouts for our dps. Normally 4-6 rangers. Rangers definatly benefit the most IMHO with troubador because they are top on dps chain on single target dmg. Assassin is just as good if they dont have to joust and survive ae's. Can out dps our rangers when never has to dodge. So scouts ftw IMHO. Aggro reducer is our most impactful raid skill.</P> <P>If your in a mt group and dont have a troub with a dps group your limiting your raid. You dont need power regen with mt group when your dps can do twice as much dps from aggro reducer. Cutting the mob fight down in half. Not to mention we can put up power regen and offer some decent pathing imbetween ae's. Master 1 t6 heals like 500hp imbetween each ae i think if it is a 6 sec tic and not 2 sec ive nevercounted it but assumed it is 6sec That covers about 1/4th of an ae pretty nice difference in making the difference of a pure melee surviving 2-3 ae's or not. Anyhoo that is role we go for.</P>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote: <P>Rangers however are consistantly 1k+ with a troub. With out a troub are rangers peel aggro if they do 600 dps. So we always use our troub for dps grups. If we have just 1 it goes for the scouts. If we have 2 it goes scouts then scout / mage mix. We now run mostly scouts for our dps. Normally 4-6 rangers. Rangers definatly benefit the most IMHO with troubador because they are top on dps chain on single target dmg. Assassin is just as good if they dont have to joust and survive ae's. Can out dps our rangers when never has to dodge. So scouts ftw IMHO. Aggro reducer is our most impactful raid skill.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not going to claim rangers suck for dps by any stretch, but I've found that with a warlock or two, an illusionist's spell proc, Aria and Precision, the warlocks can (so long as they're careful to wait for the tank to generate sufficient aggro) do absolutely huge damage using Netherous Realm.  Granted it's a fairly specific stack-up, and they've got to be very careful not to pull aggro since it can be some big chained proc action, but some Netherous procs bolstered by Precision, Aria and the Illus proc can generate some whopping huge dps numbers on entire groups of mobs.  Against a single target I'd tend to agree that rangers generally get better dps than a mage class if managed right, but against a group encounter it's positively insane what troub-boosted warlocks can achieve. 

[Amistead]

<P>I play a warlock main.  I love troubadors.  A lot.</P> <P>  Have I mentioned that I love troubadors?</P> <P> </P> <P>Alezara</P> <P>Warlock of the 60th Order~Core~Unrest</P>

[Ballads]

We have 2 of each bard in my guild so yes one to each group. MT and melee dps group goes to dirge for the most part. So i end up 1-2 places.  Mage group- this is my favorate me 4 mages and a fury usually. I run biras ,arias , str & sta , deaggro, and self buff. with a str potion im easily capped out in both str and int. I drop percision pretty much whenever its up( every fight or every other trash mob fight. )  summoners are fun cause they add 2 casters to proc but any mage will do. Its kida hard to see what you add sometimes becasue your procs are applied to the casters dmg. This is are best group imo. It really lets are a buffs reach full potential.  Off tank group- weather duel tanking group mobs or just keeping a back up gard to be #2 on hate list and throw in another good rescue we do well in this group. I run, biras,def,str & sta always and play with my other 2 slots . deaggro for the healers, resist buffs , self-buff ,  or even requeim for uncurable dots. If they fix requeim to make it on par with stoneskin it would rock but oh well. my def-buff gives about 7% avoidance and seems to lessen orange cons from hitting through mit. Resist spell really helps but more with healers then with the tank itself who is usally close or over cap. ( in a perfect situation healer wont take any ae but as we know bad pulls happen everyday )  the only time i might end up in melee dps is because no dirge for it. in this group i run- biras, str & sta, haste, self-buff, deaggro or arias( if more then 1-2 fighters ) or maybe even def so the assassin can survivie when he pulls aggro.  A bard for every group is teh way to go. we simply make every group better !! The end !! <div></div>

[Warond]

I'm usually in the mage group, but if it's a dragon fight I get to be in the MT group for mit stuff. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't mind chilling with the mages though, all the mages in my guild are funny guys so we just kick back and chill <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[911GT3]

I am almost always in the MT group, we never realy have a dps problem and rarely even have enough casters on raids to make a killer caster dps group. We rarely have trouble with raid mobs under lvl 65, but the lvl 65 ones are quite a challenge. <div></div>

[Bartimaeus]

<DIV>Our guild is severly lacking a Dirge at the moment, so often am in the MT group for the power regen and general useful bard buffs. I know that when we get our Dirge I will be put in a DPS group of some sort to boost dps and anti-aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Usually in MT group use: Haste, Raxxyls, Brias, Avoidance **Open Slot for Aria/self buff/resist buff**</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also my debuffs are my primary concern, the int debuff on startling shriek is nice at master, and the mental debuff helps tanks taunt and our damage, 1.5k at master, not to mention the -skills of the mob on Demoralizing.</DIV>

[pera]

A troubador can make a good subsitue for a dirge in most cases, mostly in cases where the mobs cast heave Magic/Mental/Divine/Heat/Cold dmg. though we can help the mt group we really shine in a dps group.  That includes scout dps as well.  Most scouts in the offincive stance get + to combat skills so they normaly dont have a problem hitting mobs, and their poison and other procs can also cause aria's to proc they get i very nice dps increase as well.     The biggest asset we give to groups other than aria's, pr, and verious other buffs is our serenade line. There are many times i'll see another caster/dps in another raide group take agro and die, when very rarely will someone in my group take agro when i have serenade running. <div></div>

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

<DIV>I find myself all over the place depending on the situation and the sign ups (I come from a large raiding community, so when we're doing T5 targets we don't hand pick classes and often have 3 troubadours plus dirges). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The dirges will generally take the role of MT support, but I've been in the role as well. Normally though I'll be in an off tank or MA group if one is required, or a caster orientated DPS group. Also been in melee only groups, where I tend to find I have concentration free. Not that that matters, if I have leftover con I just think about myself. And why not, we can do a decent amount of damage if thats what we aim for :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Viglundr]

<P>Lvl60 Troubador.</P> <P>My role usualy is power regen & scout/caster group agro reduction.</P> <P>That's it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Most of the times I don't even bother looking at the screen (raiding poets palace return at the moment) and typing this, heh.</P> <P>There just isnt anything else a troubador needs to do/can do.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ah well.. won't be playing this class much longer, they just are not fun.</P>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV><FONT color=#33cc33>Like I have stated before  several times we are to casters as dirges are to melee. Yup you got it, gods, we are gods to mage  dps increase. We have ZERO business in a melee oriented group. Generally raid leaders, the good ones anyway, know and research classes to have the capability to form the groups in the most efficient and beneficial manner. T6 raid leaders that have any experience at being a raid leader will know this and not in their right mind stick a troubador with melee group. It's a waste of the class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viglundr wrote:<BR> <P>Lvl60 Troubador.</P> <P>My role usualy is power regen & scout/caster group agro reduction.</P> <P>That's it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Most of the times I don't even bother looking at the screen (raiding poets palace return at the moment) and typing this, heh.</P> <P>There just isnt anything else a troubador needs to do/can do.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ah well.. won't be playing this class much longer, they just are not fun.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#33cc33>Dude, you really just only told me that you have an inexperienced raid leader whom does not know how to deal with class assigning in groups. You should not be in with melees. Why not just have tanks along for healing? Or maybe a healer should tank a raid then? Sounds pretty lame to me. Highly suggest that you and your guildmates vote on getting a new raid leader that knows what they are doing. Troubador in melee group hahahaha. You jest sir, you jest. If you start getting put in the right group, your options will open up and you will not think the troubador as a lame and restricted class.</FONT></DIV>

[Sanju]

<span>Is that so? Do I have an inexperienced raid leader, too, because there's always at least 1 melee in my group, and generally around 3.Fountain of Life, zone in to Godking dead in 28 minutes (Godking is on farm status).  PP:R completed without a Shimmering Ring of the Djinn. Gates cleared with 3 groups (including the Adofo guy), Court cleared with 3 groups (including Sunchild and Black queen), blah blah blah blah ...Gee, I wonder what we could do with an experienced raid leader?<blockquote><hr>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<div><font color="#33cc33">Like I have stated before  several times we are to casters as dirges are to melee. Yup you got it, gods, we are gods to mage  dps increase. We have ZERO business in a melee oriented group. Generally raid leaders, the good ones anyway, know and research classes to have the capability to form the groups in the most efficient and beneficial manner. T6 raid leaders that have any experience at being a raid leader will know this and not in their right mind stick a troubador with melee group. It's a waste of the class.</font></div><div><font color="#33cc33"></font></div><div><font color="#33cc33">Dude, you really just only told me that you have an inexperienced raid leader whom does not know how to deal with class assigning in groups. You should not be in with melees. Why not just have tanks along for healing? Or maybe a healer should tank a raid then? Sounds pretty lame to me. Highly suggest that you and your guildmates vote on getting a new raid leader that knows what they are doing. Troubador in melee group hahahaha. You jest sir, you jest. If you start getting put in the right group, your options will open up and you will not think the troubador as a lame and restricted class.</font></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Rampagious]

A troubador in a all mage group?  Thats a joke right?  Still suprises me to this day people don't know how to form raid groups...<div></div>

[Viglundr]

<div><div><font color="#33cc33">Like I have stated before  several times we are to casters as dirges are to melee. Yup you got it, gods, we are gods to mage  dps increase. We have ZERO business in a melee oriented group. Generally raid leaders, the good ones anyway, know and research classes to have the capability to form the groups in the most efficient and beneficial manner. T6 raid leaders that have any experience at being a raid leader will know this and not in their right mind stick a troubador with melee group. It's a waste of the class.</font></div><div><font color="#33cc33"></font> </div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Viglundr wrote:<div></div><p>Lvl60 Troubador.</p><p>My role usualy is power regen & scout/<strong><font size="7">caster</font></strong> group agro reduction.</p><p>That's it.</p><p> </p><p>Most of the times I don't even bother looking at the screen (raiding poets palace return at the moment) and typing this, heh.</p><p>There just isnt anything else a troubador needs to do/can do.</p><p> </p><p>Ah well.. won't be playing this class much longer, they just are not fun.</p><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#33cc33">Dude, you really just only told me that you have an inexperienced raid leader whom does not know how to deal with class assigning in groups. You should not be in with melees. Why not just have tanks along for healing? Or maybe a healer should tank a raid then? Sounds pretty lame to me. Highly suggest that you and your guildmates vote on getting a new raid leader that knows what they are doing. Troubador in melee group hahahaha. You jest sir, you jest. If you start getting put in the right group, your options will open up and you will not think the troubador as a lame and restricted class.</font></div><div><font color="#33cc33"></font> </div><div><font color="#33cc33"></font> </div><div>You are missing the point. I did say caster.. it doesnt matter where they stick us, Troubadors are still boring, there is nothing to do for a bard... debuff, shot an arrows every 5 seconds that will miss that lvl 65-68 mob anyway because we have no offensive stances. Melee same thing, no offensive stance. mostly, miss,. miss miss miss miss.</div><div>Our nukers are a joke..  troubadors are not DPS, I understand that, we are there to support other classes, which we do well, but once you got your songs going and the mob is debuffed.. you can go take a coffee break and wait for the mob to die.. no exicement at all, because there is no way in hell a troubador can steal agro etc etc blah blah blah...</div><div> </div><div>whatever..</div></div>

[Jehannum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Viglundr wrote:<div><div><font color="#33cc33"></font> </div><div>You are missing the point. I did say caster.. it doesnt matter where they stick us, Troubadors are still boring, there is nothing to do for a bard... debuff, shot an arrows every 5 seconds that will miss that lvl 65-68 mob anyway because we have no offensive stances. Melee same thing, no offensive stance. mostly, miss,. miss miss miss miss.</div><div>Our nukers are a joke..  troubadors are not DPS, I understand that, we are there to support other classes, which we do well, but once you got your songs going and the mob is debuffed.. you can go take a coffee break and wait for the mob to die.. no exicement at all, because there is no way in hell a troubador can steal agro etc etc blah blah blah...</div><div> </div><div>whatever..<hr></div></div></blockquote><p>First, let me say that I'm not trying to make a particular statement on either side of this argument because while I'm relatively content with my current lot, I wouldn't say it can't be improved.  That said...</p><p>1. I usually hit level 65+ mobs with my Ovation.  It's by no means a sure thing but at master 1 it does hit more often than it misses.</p><p>2. I often hit with my axes when I melee.  Again it's not a sure thing, but with various debuffs landed it becomes substantially better.  Generally I run close to 40% for mobs without a debilitating AE.  Not perfect, to be sure, but far from constant misses.</p><p>3. I do decent damage to just about any raid mob with my nukes, as long as it's not Terrorantula or another mental-immune.  I can count on one hand, for example, the number of resists I get on Sunchild in a typical kill.  Granted that higher-level mobs do resist more, when all the debuffs are on most of my songs land nicely.  That may be the number of master debuffs our raid force typically brings to bear, but it's the truth.</p><p>4. Last night, as we killed Sunchild, I hit Precision just before he decided it was time to kill someone, saying in TS that "it's ok, he never picks me."  Guess who he picked.  I've had peripheral adds jump on me due to early AE hits when mobs resist area taunts too, so yes, we CAN and occasionally do draw aggro.  If you're not doing anything, then yes, you won't draw aggro.   But how exciting is that, really?</p>

[Bartimaeus]

<div></div><div>For me, on and AoE fight (raid fight) I have parsed 1200 dps, so dont say troubs cant do anything. However, Troubs (IMO) are primary caster buffers in raid groups for the aria procs on the damage HOWEVER the aggro decreaser we get is effective on scouts (And we have str and haste buffers for melee damage, not to mention aria can proc on poisons and some scout CA's) So really its a toss up. Troubs can buff both, however I prefer casters because the aria and precision will proc ALOT more with casters</div><div> </div><div>Oh yeah, my melee hits at about 97% accuracy on swings and my CA's are probably 90+%</div><p>Message Edited by Bartimaeus on <span class="date_text">01-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:05 PM</span></p>

[Coppun]

I am in guild with another troub he gets the mage group and I take the scout group.  troubs are a severe waste outside of dps group its where we totally shine.  our troub in mage group consistantly lands in top 10 dps for the raid beating out zerker,sk, bruiser etc.   procs own with high int.  hint hint for the bards out there..<div></div>

[Grubbyc]

<div></div>Um, in the cheap seats, with whatever is left over after making the real groups.