Consolidated Troubador issues

[Belisarius]

<P><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>This thread has generated the type of response I was looking for. We are here to show the developers that there are issues with our class that need to be addressed. I have taken your responses and tried to put them in a format that will be a easy to read and highlight the important issues of our class. To anyone that is reading this post and is in the position to make changes to our class, I strongly suggest you read the proceeding replies in this post, as well as the brief points I outline.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>Preface & layout of post</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>While I do acknowledge that the developers understand the class and test the class. I think it is important to mention that since this class is niche based we have a unique role. However, our performance in this roll is not up to par with the roles that other classes provide. Due to this we are overlooked in group situations and instead other classes with clearly defined roles are grouped instead. This leaves us being grouped primarily as a last choice or in a raid group with 5 casters where our total DPS increase that 5 casters can gain from our spells is greater than the DPS of a 6th caster. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>We have a unique role being a bard. This role needs an adjustment which would make us wanted in groups since we are mainly a group based class. I am not advocating a move back to EQ1 Bards, but I think something can be learned from the way they were setup. When a EQ1 bard joined a group, the group felt themselves rise up and perform better. This aspect is poorly missed when looking at EQ2s Bard. This thread is not meant to point fingers and blame people. It is meant to show that these are issues that we, as a community, feel the same on, and that this is not a single complaint of one or two angry individuals. Throughout this post I will refrain from using terminology such as bug and nerf and other deconstructive slander, lets keep this clean and constructive above all else.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>The main issues that currently affect a troubadour can be broken down into four simple groups that can then be further subdivided: DPS , song effectiveness, debuff strength, and other.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>DPS</FONT><BR><SPAN><FONT size=2>The +,-,* listing of our DPS CAs and spells has been removed. After speaking with several other Troubadours and raid leaders I think there should be more uniformed focus on our songs and put any issues we have with DPS on the backburner untill our songs have been corrected then re-evaluate the situation.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>Song effectiveness</FONT><BR>This is tough thing to pinpoint as each troubadour has different personal preferences. One thing that is a commonality between all the troubadours, however, is the admittance of a problem. Due to the nature of this issue, I will sub-divide this category further into offensive, defensive, other, and raid effectiveness in relation to songs only.</FONT></FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>Offensive songs<BR>By saying offensive songs I refer to songs that increase the DPS output of others in the group giving an additional effect. Being in the position we are currently in, our offensive songs are lacking. These songs currently focus in on casters. Also, these songs have been reduced in effectiveness on several occasions leaving them a shell of their former selves. There is much debate on whether or not we should primary buff casters or if we should buff melee and casters at the same level of effectiveness. Since this is an issue of debate, I will not discuss it. Instead, I will outline the spells we have with their high points, low points and ways to improve them.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>Defensive songs<BR>When I say defensive songs for the purpose of this post, I am referring to songs that increase the groups defensive capabilities, including the capabilities of priest, by giving effects. This lineup of songs like many others is good in overall theory. However, the effectiveness of these songs is questionable. These songs should provide a noticeable increase to the groups overall defense. What the focus of this defense should be, caster dmg, or melee dmg is a heavily debated subject. So once again, I will refrain from taking sides and simply discuss each song in its current format with the positives, negatives and ways to improve the song.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>Other songs<BR>These are songs that are usable as an overall buff, such as stat, power regeneration, self, or songs that do not have a clearly defined role such as the Swan and Dove line. Each of these songs will be discussed in the same format as described above.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffcc size=2>Raid effective songs<BR>This will breifly highlight our most common raid group configuration and list ideas to improve it</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>Debuffs</FONT><BR>The role of a troubadour in debuffing I believe has gained more attention by the developers. The reason I make this assumption is due to their power usage. Constantly spamming all of our CAs, and even switching songs, does not put a dent in a properly equipped and buffed troubadour. However, once we begin to use our debuffs, which use power over time, a troubadour's power consumption increases drastically. It is for this reason that I will pay special attention to outlining these spells and the issues that we face with them in our current format. This category will follow the same format as the other categories.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>Other</FONT><BR>This category will include general issues that range from artwork, sound, to overall perception. This category will not be broken down like the others, but instead, I will pull excerpts from other troubadours on class aesthetics and briefly give ideas on way to improve them which will also be pulled directly from other troubadours.</FONT></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#3300cc size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3300cc><SPAN></SPAN></FONT><SPAN><FONT size=2>The +,-,* listing of our DPS CAs and spells has been removed. After speaking with several other Troubadours and raid leaders I think there should be more uniformed focus on our songs and put any issues we have with DPS on the backburner untill our songs have been corrected then re-evaluate the situation.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#3300cc size=2>Song effectiveness</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>If a troubadour's niche is supposed to be primarily group effectiveness, we need some work. We simply do not provide enough benefit to the group or raid environment to promote a healthy environment for playing a troubadour effectively. Below, our songs have been broken down into several categories. I do realize that songs can easily move to other categories, and I have not listed the proper full name in all cases this is merely for quick reading and organization.</FONT></P> <OL> <LI><FONT size=2>Offensive songs</FONT></LI></OL></SPAN> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Opus (Haste)</FONT></SPAN></P> <UL> <LI><SPAN><FONT size=2>(-) Does not enough noticable increase in DPS</FONT></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory</FONT></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN><FONT size=2>(*) Since most DPS comes from CAs and melee only occurs inbetween, this spells effectiness is limited. </FONT></SPAN></LI></UL> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Precision of the Maestro (20 seconds of procs on some spell types)</FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Does not proc off of all spells</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory, bonus points for spell sound.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Proc could be expanded to proc off of other spell types such as dots, poison spells, ect</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Aria of Exaltation (spell proc)</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Proc dmg has been reduced, does not proc on dots</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Increasing the proc dmg or give the spell the ability to proc off of dot ticks.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2>    2. Defensive songs</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Quiron's (In-combat regeneration of Health)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Heal is a little underpowered, could use a small adjustment to the amount of heal per tick, or an added HP buff</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory as it increases health in-combat</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) An increase in the amount of health healed per tick or a possible total health increase would be a nice added effect.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffff00>Insatiable Ardor, Daelor's Luminary Ballad, Grac<FONT color=#ffff00>eful, Balletic Avoidance </FONT>(+defense)</FONT><BR> </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) As of now this spell directly effects your avoidance. Given the volitial nature of avoidance and how it is a chance to avoid dmg and not a guarantee, this spell's effects are weakened. To see this spell perform as needed, it would need to affect mitigation or give a larger impact to avoidance.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) One of the very few buffs we get for melees</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Change avoidance increase to mitigation increase or greatly increase the rate at which it increases avoidance, or the addition of a ward effect to the spell.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Arcane (+mental, magic, divine)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) In its current format, resists do not matter enough for this spell to be considered effective</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+( Would be effective if resists were more effective</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Change the way resists are calculated and the rates at which you resist spells, or add a ward proc to this type of spell dmg </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Elemental (+heat, +cold)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) In its current format resists do not matter enough for this spell to be considered effective</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Would be effective if resists were more effective</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Change the way resists are calculated and the rates at which you resist spells, or add a ward proc to this type of spell dmg </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Requiem of Reflection (reflects spell dmg at the caster)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Mobs do not cast enough spells for such a low % on this spell</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Not reflecting AE, breath attack, ect (Nerfs on test) makes this spell useless in raid situations as we are not meant for a MT group in our current format as a caster buffer.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Nice in theory</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) A direct simple version of this spell X chance of reflecting spell. Also, the X in this case would need to be much higher then 10% and include such attacks as AEs, where it would be utilized the most.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2>    3. Other songs</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Raxxyl's (+str,+sta)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) With the type of stat gear that is dropped in T6 hardcaps on statistics are easy to reach, once his has occurred this spell is usless. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Add an additional effect other than stats such as a direct increase to what the stats increase. This way this spell could bypass hard stat caps.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2> Alin's Tranquil Serenade (decrease hate gain of group members minus fighter)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Effects are not significantly noticeable </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good spell overall, just which for better effectiveness</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>*Increase values at which aggro is decreased</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Swan, Dove Song  (+Disruption ect, +focus)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Have only noticed a slight effect on yellow mobs, once the mob reaches con lvl of orange the spells effect appears pointless</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Does not effect priests enough to be meaningful. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory, not effective</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Increase overall spell effectinvess, give priest more benefit with this spell</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2>   4. Raid effective songs</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Currently in raid groups, if used to our peak of effectiveness, we are placed in groups of full casters, mostly DPS casters. In these groups, we can provide a noticeable DMG increase using such skills as PoM and Aria. However, given the availability of these, casters in the groups are often patched with other classes. This leaves us in a role where we are not providing a benefit to these non DPS caster classes. For instance, our benefits to priest is negligible minus the power regeneration. Our reflection song is being geared down to the point where it will have no effectiveness in raid groups. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><BR><FONT size=2>If our role is to provide caster support in raid groups then our songs should be geared to effect a wider range of casters and effect them in a greater manor. </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><BR><FONT size=2>Our debuffs in raids are also a mute point as well, as I have personally parsed DPS outputted by several epic encounters and seen no change in mobs DPS output.<BR>With a little tweaking Troubadours can become a highly effective raid class, as we should be primarily group utility.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> <P><FONT color=#3300cc size=2>Debuffs</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Currently our DPS have a massive power drain attached to them. This leads me to belive that the potential of these spells is much greater then they are in there current format. All of these debuffs should be worth the total power usage required to keep the spell up. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Guviena's Slothful Chant (snare, lowers mental resist)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Snare is of minimal importance, the added power cost effect of the spell is not needed as the power regeneration rates of mobs make power drain irrelevant</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Nice resist debuff effect</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Tweak to where the spell's effect on a mobs' power is noticeable, or give it a direct effect on the mobs' casting ability.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Demoralizing Processional (-Disruption ect, -focus)</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Spell's effect on a mob is questionable, it constantly lowers power, and it does not give an effect at the end of the spell's duration</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Adjust the spell where debuffing these attributes is noticeable and worth the constant power loss.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Oppressive Descante (-str, -sta)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) Lowering the stats of creatures has little to no noticeable affect</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>(*) Adjust the spell where debuffing these attributes is noticeable and worth the constant power loss, or directly decrease the mobs abilities that these stats buff<BR></FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> <P><FONT color=#3300cc size=2>Other</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Bards are a class with a lot of room to work with. There is much room for flavor, style, and asthetics. However, this is not something that is seen with the class in its current format. Small things, such as instruments that increase song effectiveness which could be used in the offhand, or more dances would add a lot of flavor to the class. These things were common in EQ1. While I am not saying I want a bard copy from EQ1, I am saying that from an asthetics point of view, one should take a “note” from these older bards. Below I will have short list of things you can do to improve the class.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Instruments</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Better animation</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Better graphics on songs (the music note thing is kinda worn out)</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Better sounds (Sound effect on PoM is nice) </FONT></FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Disclaimer – This post has been compiled from other’s comments I have gained through various forums, and from speaking directly with other Troubadours, as well as my personal experiences playing a Troubadour from 1-60.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><BR></FONT></P></SPAN> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></P><FONT size=2>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:43 PM</SPAN> </FONT> <P><FONT size=2>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:41 PM</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:59 PM</SPAN></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-25-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:14 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>11-25-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:14 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Belisarius on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Belisarius on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Myrddhinn]

<DIV>I think my primary concern is that i have to make a choice between my Agi (Melee, Avoidance, Solo) and my Int (Spell, DPS, Raid). Very few items are useful to us (though it is possible to find some).</DIV> <DIV>If you choose to buy items (Cambric for Raids/ Cobalt Chainmail for Solo), hard priced.</DIV> <DIV>If you try to loot specific items you compete with Scouts / Mages for each and every piece of Fabled...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is imho the price to pay for our adaptability.</DIV> <DIV>But i won't say i am very displeased by a little difficulty in this so-easy gameplay... Because i think this game is not very challenging. So if we, Troubadours, are facing more difficulty than others that is the class i want to play...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I want this game to be hard. I want player skill to be significant. I want our levels to be meaningful.</DIV> <DIV>I am fed up with 48+ Paladin that do not know the difference between a Boot opening or a Horn opening. Without difficulty there is no pleasure... And most of my team/guild/raid mates are eagerly waiting for another game to switch to. Eat your white bread now. But MMO is not like Movies. We do not want to cash your investment back in the 1st month.</DIV> <DIV>We want worlds to build and to achieve something into.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My second concern is since the beginning our lack of Art work... Game tunes are splendid. Our melody (yes, one) is quite nice but i have heard it for one year now.</DIV> <DIV>I do not sing, i do not play instruments, i do not act as a bard in any way.</DIV> <DIV>I gave up the immersive side of Norrath post-apo, as for housing (my crafting class is carpenter).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less numbers, more world. </DIV>

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

<P>Feeling more like a bard would be high on my list also, as I've never felt the class has reached its full potential in that respect.</P> <P>Some hiccups for me are;</P> <UL> <LI>Requiem of Reflection - needs fixed so that it is worthwhile, I very rarely see it go off now. Perhaps consider either having it trigger from physyical damage but reflect non-physical, or just have both the dirge and troubadour buffs a flat % chance to refelct damage.</LI> <LI>We have only one self buff (which takes concentration). Although we have group buffs that we can use to increase our flexibility while solo, it still seems a bit unfair that we don't have a trade off like the other melee classes. Having two self buffs that work like stances (one focussing on DPS, one on defence) would be nice.</LI> <LI>Not being able to use our ranged attack while moving may help prevent kiting, but it can be annoying if the mob moves too close when you have fired it off. Perhaps make a faster cast time?</LI> <LI>Eli's DD line seem to take too long to cast also, which cripples the spell since its damage isn't anything to write home about</LI> <LI>Using Walk Lightly in a HO still causes a bug where it cannot be used again until you zone</LI> <LI>Something needs to be added to the Songsters Luck line to make the troubadours caster version viable</LI> <LI>Finally, our fluff spells are so incredibly unimaginative it defies logic! Bards should be an easy class to think of fluff spells for; give us a wider range of dances, allow us to play our lute/drum using a fluff ability, and the ability to make others dance was pretty decent! Why was that removed anyway, when other classes can still force their fluffs on people?</LI></UL><p>Message Edited by WorldsAway_Nybor on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 AM</span>

[WooTast]

Relating to an earlier post in this thread, the very poor soloability of the class bothers me greatly.  Progressing thru end-game quests presents us with some solo-type instances which are a total cakewalk for some classes and at this point impossible for me. I'm thinking specifically of the instance in Tower of Moon for the In the Service of the Master quest.  At level 60, with virtually all adept 3's and a few Master 1 spells, much cobalt armor, much int gear, imbued cobalt dual-wielders, a T6 imbued ironwood shield and a T6 imbued one-hander cobalt daggar, I cannot come close to soloing the group of 4 green heroic mobs that guard the harvestable item in that instance.  Even with the T6 shield, I cannot possibly get up enough defense and do enough dps to kill a heroic group of 4 mobs.  It's pretty disheartening. (Yes I know that instance can be duoed, but only one of the pair can harvest the item, after which they cannot help the other member do the instance.) <div></div>

[Mawie]

<P>The only thing I can think of right now is that the level 20 special skill doesn't make anyone dance. People just shoot fireworks out of their butts now. It is kind of silly.</P>

[Jehannum]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>WooTastic wrote:<BR>Relating to an earlier post in this thread, the very poor soloability of the class bothers me greatly.  Progressing thru end-game quests presents us with some solo-type instances which are a total cakewalk for some classes and at this point impossible for me. I'm thinking specifically of the instance in Tower of Moon for the In the Service of the Master quest.  At level 60, with virtually all adept 3's and a few Master 1 spells, much cobalt armor, much int gear, imbued cobalt dual-wielders, a T6 imbued ironwood shield and a T6 imbued one-hander cobalt daggar, I cannot come close to soloing the group of 4 green heroic mobs that guard the harvestable item in that instance.  Even with the T6 shield, I cannot possibly get up enough defense and do enough dps to kill a heroic group of 4 mobs.  It's pretty disheartening.<BR><FONT color=#66cc00>I have zero cobalt armor (a couple pieces T6 fabled/treasured though) and a below-cap int, plenty of Adept 3's but still about 20-30% A1's and below and only a bare few masters (outdated stuff plus Shrill M2) and had very little trouble with this zone once I'd worked it out.  There were no heroic groups when I entered, just singles and groups of vv Initiates with vvv Guards, all blue or green at 60.  First time, I almost died when the whole second floor aggroed.  Second time, I got vertical aggro bugged and drew an extra pair of single initiates and ran again.  Third time, I took it slow and careful and won.  Body-pulls on the second floor and pulling back to the door (<STRONG>NOT</STRONG> the center of the room lol) is the key.</FONT></P> <P><BR>(Yes I know that instance can be duoed, but only one of the pair can harvest the item, after which they cannot help the other member do the instance.)<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Easy to solo that, just a little slow.  Take down the stairway aggro guy first while staying at the door, charm the Sha'ir vv in the group of 3 on the main floor, kill his pals then him.  Edge up the stairs to take the two guards, take the sha'ir roamers one by one carefully from the second floor, edging a step up and waiting a minute or two each time so as to only catch one, then running to the door below to engage.  Once the roamers are toast (there were 2 or 3 of them, all solos) you can get to where the first lamp sits which will probably aggro the Initiate just past the top of the stairs - kill that one by the lamp, then take the guard group at the top of the second staircase (again pulling them down, if you see anything else on track - can't recall exactly).  If there's another sha'ir at the top, be careful.  Basically though so long as you charm the sha'ir initiates and keep things to one or two at a time (I actually charmed an initiate to kill a second because I wanted to see if I could) there's really not much trouble to be had for a competent troubadour.  Of course if your charm is better than my weenie Adept 1, you should have even less problem <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Aggro is a little flaky so be prepared to potentially exit/return a few times getting the hang of things; no worries though, there's no lockout.</P>

[Sanju]

1. Requiem of Reflection. Regardless of the group setup or situation, this spell is just not worth using one concentration on. It could be similar to Precision (no conc, cast Reflection -- buff lasts for x seconds will reflect once, recast x seconds), or a flat 30% chance to reflect (one conc), or whatever ... but in it's current form I can't think of a time I'd use a conc on it (unless I was grouped with another Troub and had nothing else to put up). 2. Eli's cast time is way too long for the damage done. Damage needs to increase, or a secondary effect added (debuff, pacify, stifle, etc.). Or the cast time needs to be lowered significantly (0.5 to 1 second) and the recast adjusted accordingly. (Or -- my favorite -- completely revise this spell to be a TRUE AE (perhaps frontal-only) and adjust the cast, recast and damage accordingly. It seems silly that a class based around music, songs, etc. doesn't have a true AE attack, like a focused scream or something). 3. Guvinea's Ovation. Damage needs to be increased, and I'd love to have the mana drain back on this. I don't know why it was ever removed, since Epics are impossible or close to impossible to drain anyway (the drain would be added more for us to regain some mana, and not to drain the target). 4. Lore's Roust. The mana drain on this is laughable. While I don't expect everything to be equal to our dirge bretheren, their debuff procs a damage spell on termination that hits for about 1000 damage. Roust decreases the mob's mana by 23 (made up number but pretty close). 5. Graceful Avoidance. Defense buffs just aren't what they used to be, so this spell is rarely used in raids or xp groups. Maybe a small stat buf added to it (agi, sta, and/or str would make the most sense). 6. Dove Song. I'd like to see a small INT and WIS buff added to this, to make it more appealing to use in caster/priest groups. 7. Selo's. Be nice to have a T6 version of Selo's (I won't ask for the group invis back, as nice as that would be). 8. Precision of the Maestro. I'd still like the duration increased to 30 seconds (recast 2 - 2.5 min). That's all I can come up with at the moment. <div></div>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><div></div>Main problem I have and I know many have is the change of role which was forcd on us with no consultation or acknowledgement that we chose the class to do something we can no longer do. To add insult to injury we are not even particularlly good in the new role. I can solo and I can do ok on no-arrow mobs to 3 levels over me. one arrow up even and up mobs are hard to extremely hard. I have all adept 3 to level & full t6 legendary. In small groups and duos I am also very limited. In a normal group I cannot buff myself or other mellee well enough to make a noticible diference on mellee damage or defence. As the majority of groups have one or two priests, 2 or 3 mellee (inc me) and maybe 1 or two casters I bring far less to the group than I think I should as nothing I have really helps the priests and fighters apart from mana regen and te agro modifier. My own damage is too slow especially as many large groups of mobs are so low hp individually that after casting a debuff my long cast group nuke is usually finishing after the target dies unless I do not assist the tank - which is a no-no. I have not done many raids but from what folks are saying we basically buff a caster group and do PoM when its time with very little other utility before or apart from that. Basically most of the problems are the same as in PoF beta - the split between caster buffer and mellee buffer. It is a bad idea. Very bad and quite honestly the future for that design into future levels is going to be appalling. It is makes no sense to make a mellee into a caster buff specialist. Troubadours and Dirges should be able to buff both mellee and casters effectively not this halfassed split. Immediatly though troubs need some or all of these or similar improvements/fixes: a) several of our nukes - Eli's and the group Alin's in particular need a speed up b) Purloin essence needs to return noticible power. c) Lore's malignant etc - the 40% extra mana per use of power either desnt work or its so [Removed for Content] useless because mobs dont use power or something? I ahave never noticed a diference from the 2ndary effect d) startling shreik needs a big damage boost. the int damage is worthless in practice. e) make our spell damage add to combat arts and procs. f) Improve the defense buff to maybe proc a small rune or heal or something - its to little in defense and not as good as the parry increase we used to have. If not then it shoudl buff wis to restore its original spell avoidance portion that was removed. g) Sandras incursion - should do a bit more damage - maybe the mental damage portion shuold be able to trigger the spell damage add. h) Taffo's should do more damage. Power damage is useless nothing gets drained by us however hard we try. i) courtly blade should do more damage and be one attack again. the split damage is crappy. j) reflection song is a joke right? k) Swan song does not seem to do anything measurble. Make the focus portion give resistance to stuns and raise the caster level so that it helps land spells on higher elvel mobs - which I presume its suposed to do bt doesnt seem to do. In general - either forget the power damage on our abilites or make it worth while. currently its totally useless. At least real damage does something. Power useage - in a fast xp group or long fights I have power problems. It seems that we use a lot more power than we can generate to even things up with our group members. I am mostly OOP before any other member of the group with just about everything seemingly a mana drain + we do not kill that fast leads to a lot of power being used up. Even it up so that in a mana buffed group we are using aman at teh same rate as others. I still quite enjoy the class but it realy needs a proper balance pass and a vision to it not this ill-thought out split we curently have. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 PM</span>

[Claritin]

<P>I agree with most of this stuff...</P> <P>I feel I am needed mainly for 3 things</P> <P>1.) Power regen<BR>2.) Aggro reducer<BR>3.) Precision of the Maestro (which has been stealth nerfed pretty hard over the last 2 weeks)</P> <P>I agree ALOT of our abilities do not provide the DPS that is expected from a scout.... so most of it needs a DPS bump.</P> <P>I agree that we CAN NOT SOLO WELL... all of our buffs except 1 were made small to benefit a group... when you remove the group the buffs are... well STILL REALLY FUGGIN SMALL... by this I mean thinks like our defense buff... it's handy when for some reason I am stuck with the main tank... BUT... make me go solo... then compare my solo "defensive mode" with say... a ranger.  Now the ranger is DPS... we are supposed to be but are not... what we are are the most utility of the utility class.... however the better DPS classes can also tank better because of these things called STANCES.</P> <P>OK... so you put 12 "melee" sub-classes in the game<BR>You decide 1 class (2 sub-class) is going to be utility.</P> <P>You let Bezerkers, Bruisers, Monks, Shadowknights all out-DPS Troubs... by using offensive stances.</P> <P>You let every scout tank better by using defensive stances.</P> <P>Umm... UTILITY CLASS HERE!!! Right HERE guys....</P> <P>If someone is utilty it should be THEM that can swap from DPS to DEF or from DEF to DPS... not EVERYONE BUT THEM!</P> <P>I saw the ranger AD3 DEF buff the other day... I almost puked I felt so ill about how much I got screwed.... yeah 25 DEF is nice on the group... although only ONE of them is tanking in an exp group.. probably NONE in a raid group....</P> <P>50 DEF and lots of OTHER STUFF is way better for solo... and even with it up... holy cow... they still make my DPS look lame.</P> <P>I think STANCES are how we need to be fixed.... if we had an offensive stance to increase all of our DPS when grouped... and a defensive stance to increase our tanking when solo we would be better off... TROUBS AND DIRGES WOULD BE ALLOWED TO REJOIN ALL OF THE OTHER 10 MELEE CLASSES in our abilities.</P> <P>Some testing would need to be done on the impact of going defensive as a troub... because right now I have to say if WE had a defensive stance we would drop to like 2 DPS.... but I do feel we need to adapt.</P> <P>Dove Song and all the songs like it... provide little benefit... I use it in all caster groups... but I am not thrilled with it's effectiveness.</P> <P>Please do something with stances to make us able to adapt.... it really was a cruel sick joke to give them to 10 melee classes and leave them off of 2.... you had to know it would cripple us but you ignored that and opted with the standard "bards... pfft...." line of thought... we ARE A CLASS.... we need some attention too... if you give something to everyone except us... please take the 2 seconds to evaluate it's impact to OUR balance.<BR></P>

[Rampagious]

I agree with everything Angua says almost down to a T, except I would like all the agro from PoM like we had before.  Also, I dont see the point of Aria of Exaltation damage nerf, seemed a bit pointless to me, and I dont see the point for the stifle nerf on Guviena's, they really didn't seem overpowered imo.  Also, on Daelis' Jig of Blades I would like to see it non conc slot, would be nice to have this up at all times rather than have to use a conc slot for it, I wouldn't even mind if it was toned down a bit since it wouldn't be a conc, somewhere around I would say 120int 30agi at a3 or around there. <div></div>

[Belisarius]

First major update of thread, 11/17/2005.

[3dprophet]

<P>I appreciate your efforts here, however I believe they need to be focused if we are to get results. </P> <P>"consolidated troubador issue thread" should be limited to bugs / problems in our current skill set.</P> <P>We have a better chance of getting bugs fixes then getting items on a christmas wish list.  and quoting radom players that say they wont group with us.</P> <P>We need to provide dev with a short descriptive list of current bugs effecting our class.</P> <P> </P> <P>FACTS:</P> <P>Requiem of Reflection - bugged, broken, useless, when the spell procs it should last 30 seconds, I have seen it proc and disappear duration is not 30 second.</P> <P>Charm - when a pet is charmed it does not get buffs automatically as other caster pets do.</P> <P> </P>

[Windain]

<DIV>So now they are removing more spells from being able to be reflected.  At this point I'd prefer they just give me a spell that makes my character look reflective than actually having the reflect spell effect in its current state.  At least, I'd have fun with it and would have more uses (A mobile mirror elf for people to check their appearence with).  Requiem of Reflection is so worthless and I regret wasting a pearl/vanadium on it.  Unless they make this a 50%+ reflect or make all npcs cast as much as they melee, this song will never even have a chance to be good.  Perhaps they should just merge Swan Song and Requiem of Reflection together, maybe then I'll use it.... maybe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The old version of Aria, hate reduction, maestro, and power regen are pretty much the only true useful songs we have.  I was grouping with a wizard and they lamented in the fact of how much less damage aria did.  Even casters are starting to care less about grouping with a troubador (anyone sub 58 is in even worse luck).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For haste to be worth playing they need to double the amount of haste given (lvl 55 haste is practically as good as lvl 15 (?) haste... the song line barely increases in power).  Seriously, ~20% haste is less than some other classes get and we are a pure utility class.  This song is one of many that fills a trend of weak buffs that barely affect the group.  We get a lot of different buffs, but each one barely does anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swan/Dove Song needs lots of help here (discordant boon probably could use some help on the dirge side).  It is very difficult to even see what effect they do.  It would be REALLY nice for them to add a small int/wis bonus (~20 int/wis) on this spell (a str/sta portion on discordant boon line) making it a little more worthwhile.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage wise, we are fine (Maestro is a great damage boost for any troubador 58+).  We are not meant to be damage, we are buffers.  Our buffs need to be increased by vast amounts in order to provide worth.  Our charm and mez are fine, we can do crowd control as good as needed in most cases.  Our resists could use a small boost in # resist, but ok for now.  Self buff is good, it is basically our offensive stance.. but it hurts that it takes a slot for songs on the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, I enjoy my troubador and what he has become.  If nothing was changed, I'd probably still enjoy my troubador, but there are some improvements that would make this class more potent to be with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Saying the reflection spell is bugged may not be enough. I honestly beleave they have it working the way they want it too. It is just pointless it its current format. I ONLY used this spell when I had a strong change at getting AEd, that was the only time I ever saw it proc. If this is removed I will never see it proc.</DIV>

[Windain]

<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00><BR></FONT></STRONG> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Spells and Combat Arts ***<BR><BR></FONT></STRONG>- Spells will now interrupt automatically if the target goes out of range while the spell is being cast.<BR>- Charms, hostile AoE spells, and innate abilities such as breath weapons can no longer be reflected.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[WooTast]

<span>Agreed. I see no evidence that the spell is "bugged."  The issue is, is it EVER worth a concentration slot, given the low chance of it actually reflecting a hostile spell, vs. all of the other uses of that concentration slot.<blockquote><hr>Belisarius wrote:<div>Saying the reflection spell is bugged may not be enough. I honestly beleave they have it working the way they want it too. It is just pointless it its current format. I ONLY used this spell when I had a strong change at getting AEd, that was the only time I ever saw it proc. If this is removed I will never see it proc.</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>I'm just sad now. My Troub is lvl 60. I thought things would get better. I'm past the anger stage of knowing how much my class sucks. Now i'm just dealing with it and hoping it might change one day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seeing another nerf on test kinda makes me laugh, why the **** are they still picking on us? Back off and play a troub, look at what we cannot do then rethink the nerfs.</DIV>

[thorvang]

i'd like to see some changes to some of our buffs:graceful avoidance: an extra avoidance roll, independant from avoidance, parry, deflection etc. maybe in the line of "grants a 10% chance to avoid a physical attack".guvienas: i loved the mana leech on this one, bring it back.elis: an additional dmg song is nice, just shorten the cast timereflection buff: change it to a straightforward buff "10% chance to reflect a spell on 50% of it's potential"daelis jig of blades: why is it an int buff? the name implies something that has to do with melee abilities... alas, i like the idea of an int buff for troubs. maybe add a group effect "20% chance for a free attack (melee swing)" or "10% increased chance for critical hits"fluff spells: bards are entertainers! give us something to entertain others. fluff playing lutes, flutes, harps, drums etc. and let us make people dance again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[smegsaur]

<DIV><STRONG>a lot of supporting feedback here and i aggree with additional boosts and effects on buff lines, and certain casting songs adjusted</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ROR works, its jsut pointless, even if it were a non conc buff, still worthless, no mob is gonna cast its aoe in under 30secs, its the 30sec duration which makes the spell worthless, only thing its good for is comical value duelling a wizard who ice comets themself to death.</DIV> <DIV>i dont care if the ROR returns dmg, u can completely cut that and just use it as a spellward, forget teh actual reflecting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"guvienas: i loved the mana leech on this one, bring it back" - as would i, even with a dirge on a raid, you still are casting 4 concurrent pwr consuming debuffs, purlion rarely works on an epic, u have to keep a heroic mezzed in teh raid encounter and use it for a sucking power battery and wen a cleric(s) is leeching pwr of you, if u play to maximise all your abilities cause certain abilities dont work well currently, or need significant changes, troubs can extremely be very busy beavers in a raids, or the afk'er on AF with a pencap wedged in teh keybord.</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<P>I will be reworking this thread soon. My plan is to discuss overall our problems then break down each spell line and talk about positives and negitives. I would like to start the first phase of this my focusing on our defensive based songs. Stats, graceful, reflection, ect.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please post your positive and negitive feelings on these types of songs and I'll combine the information and bump it to the top.</P> <P>Thanks for all the great support guys! Lets get this rolling.</P>

[pera]

In all honesty i believe SoE's 'Vision' of the troubador is not defensive at all, or at not really.  It seems to be more of caster offensive abilites for the most part at least.  Which just were nerfed a lot! Here is a small list i can think of off hand Power Regen:  + Great for long fights  - Somewhat useful for quick killing. Charm  + Really good for solo  - Doesnt really have any group benifits. Mez  + Great for grouping  +/- somewhat usefully for soloing.  - Easly done better by a chanter (as it should be imo) Self buff  + Great int and agi,  - uses a cons slot Haste  + Killing green/grey mobs a bit faster  - too underpowered for groups. Str/Sta Buff  + nice addition to group, not many sta buffs out there.  - not to sure, I almost always use it. Requiem  - doesnt work Aria's  + Great to increase a caster groups dps  - was just nerfed Maestro  + Great way to increase casters dps for short period of time  - jwas ust nerfed,  duration and dmg Swan/Dove Song  +Only effective on low orange mobs  - If mob is not low orange/ high yellow song is pointless. Debuffs  + Love the offinsive skill and str/agi and Zanders debuff, dot debuff to wis isnt too bad  - only can be cast on one encouter DD song (Ranged)  + Pretty good dmg  - really long recast time DD Song (Close range)  + ok dmg,  + Really long cast/recast time. (was this always  2 seconds, i swear it was 3 seconds not to long ago) for the amount of dmg done. Hp drain for Power  + not bad dmg to the mob  - really poor power return. Frontal CA  + good dmg and recasts  - ? Flanking/Behind CA  + Good dmg  - not really sure what effect the - int has on the mobs Stealth CA  + short recast timer  - Really low dmg for how offent you can use this abilty, and how long it takes to get invis and then use it. I'm sure i left some out but hope this helps <div></div>

[Azadar]

Excellent post Belisarius, I agree with all the points you mentioned. As a raiding troubador I am feeling almost useless. The only good thing we have right now are mana regen and resist songs. I just hope some of the devs will read this great post. <div></div>

[VericSauvari]

<P>Belisarisu, hope you do not mind but i'm going to copy and paste this to Spells Abilities and Combat arts forum..clearly the whining that the other profs are generating is blocking out our little niche class issues..perhaps some more exposure will help things<BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text>-edit-</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>MY GOD..its been 30 minutes and its already almost bumped down to middle of the list with NEW chanter whines <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

[Dali]

I want a defining role for our class. One niche that we could fill, could be caster hunting (learning from our prey, of course). We are, after all, scouts.- added power tap over time to the weak DoT effect of Kian's.- Reflection turned into a reactive cure type spell. It would "ward" several levels of hostile spells from said type (snares, stuns, stifles, slows, pure damage)- Dove song: adds total power on top of increasing casting skills and focus.- Reduced casting times on our own spells. It doesn't make sense for a class that can dual wield to miss a lot of swings because their spells take too long. Also, by the time you've cast your AE nuke, its interrupt effect is wasted because the mobs will probably have finished casting. Furthermore, for a class intended to group with casters, we can simply not mash enough DPS buttons by the time mobs die.- Avoidance line: adding to raw mitigation. Makes our paper tanks last longer.- Quiron's: Adept III should be about as good as average crafted foods health regen wise. No reason to play it otherwise as its effect is barely noticeable. By not using crafted foods, you'll miss out on added stats or power anyway.- Raxxl's: changed from STR/STA to WIS/STA. Since the casters we group with aren't supposed to be hit in the first place, adding to their wisdom to improve natural resistances would be logical.Any of these ideas would, in my opinion, serve toward creating a seperate role for us out there.

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Updated with list of +/- on defensive based spells.</DIV>

[smegsaur]

Dalinn, love that post some very nice ideas indeed.

[Belisarius]

After I have all spells listed under the -/+ system I will be adding a *. The * will be ways to improve the spell. Keep the positive feedback rolling.

[Mew]

I agree with the original post completely.  Troubadors have wonderful potential but we need to be more effective to be worthwhile. Right now I feel like a watered down swashbuckler.  Please, devs,  if we are musicians give us instruments.  Add some character and color to the class.  I know this isn't EQ1.  I am not asking it to be EQ1.  But one way to address some of these inadequecies listed above is to make the muscial instruments into amplifiers for our spell and combat abilities.  That would give troubadors more value to parties and raids.   The last time I got into a group you know why I was wanted?  Because they had no other scout class available to disarm chest traps.  No other reason. <div></div>

[Jehannum]

<P>Couple of things to tack onto the 'defensive' spell list - I'm not sure Dove song and its line strictly belong since they're more offensively-based in terms of their theoretical resist reduction, but let that pass...</P> <P>First, if you're gonna mention all the rest... "Balletic Avoidance."  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Second, I notice you've omitted Daelis... While I swear by the dps increase its int-buff provides, the 60 agi is fairly weak, and barely indicative of the kind of power the line should provide, as a concentration buff which affects only the caster.  While retaining its self-buff quality, I'd like to see it either: add a small proc effect (not damage but avoidance-based), remove the concentration requirement, or (and this is definitely not my preference) give it an additional, group-affecting property.</P> <DIV>As far as the Alin de-aggro series, what I'd really like is for a dev to indicate just what it's meant to do, precisely and specifically, because the spell description is unnecessarily byzantine.  We know that under <STRONG>some</STRONG> circumstance it reduces hate by X amount, and we know that as long as the group member is not a fighter their generated hate is reduced by Y%, but when we dig deeper we find that we know very little, beyond observable effects - that is, it does do something to help but we can't quantify it in a meaningful way except against its own predecessors.  I don't think anyone knows whether the affected hate generation is based on auto-attack, initial aggro, spell aggro, or some combination, or something else entirely.  There's confusion as to what the 'per hit' hate reduction does too - does it reduce hate on the group when the fighter is hit?  Does it reduce my aggro when I'm hit?  Does it reduce the party's aggro (except fighters) when any party member is hit?  Or again, is it a completely different circumstance which triggers the effect?  Finally, how do these abilities interact with those of other classes?  If I use Alin and reduce aggro by 31%, and a paladin uses an ability which takes 35% from a target, how do those abilities stack?  Does the pally take 35% of a reduced total?  Do we take 31% of a reduced total?  Does the recipient only generate 34% of normal aggro?  Knowing these things would allow us to more intelligently determine whether a given group makeup actually required the ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good thread so far, hopefully so long as it stays constructive and we don't dwell on the fact that one of our most useless abilities is becoming even moreso, we might actually get some fixing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Not that we're by any means the most broken or even close, but it's been a while since we got any (positive) attention <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[pera]

Once you get T6 our resist songs tough may seem close to everyone elses, the nice thing is they all stack.  I would say our elemental resist is our one of our most powerfull abilites when facing ae mobs that do elementa dmg. I know this is master I but at 58 it ads just under 1.1k resists.  i beleive the adept III is 900 ish, and adept I 750ish. Severalother classes get this, and i think ours is a bit underpowered compaired to theirs but at least they stack. <div></div>

[Belisarius]

<P>Once I get all the spells up I will regroup them and move them to places they better belong. Thanks for keeping things constructive, this is a good sign.</P> <P>I will be adding the * to the spells that are currently listed later today. This point is one that will be debated on hard, this are opinions of how to make the spell better and I welcome others input to be added with what I already have. I do not want this to be a few peoples opinions.</P>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belisarius wrote:<BR> <P>Once I get all the spells up I will regroup them and move them to places they better belong. Thanks for keeping things constructive, this is a good sign.</P> <P>I will be adding the * to the spells that are currently listed later today. This point is one that will be debated on hard, this are opinions of how to make the spell better and I welcome others input to be added with what I already have. I do not want this to be a few peoples opinions.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think we should focus on one thing:</P> <P>we do have a buff for almost everything..however we buff only <EM><STRONG>moderately</STRONG></EM> well.  </P>

[cid]

<DIV>Hello their,</DIV> <DIV>I'm really disapointed with what soe did to troubadour class, it's not the class i choosed to roll at beginning.</DIV> <DIV>Here the thing soe should really give us because our class is dieing and no high guild want more than one troub(check npu they hae only one troub because in raid they 'r is only one caster group)</DIV> <DIV>1) Give us a spell buff with int and Wis why we dont have this. thats gonna give us the chance to be more wanted than only the caster grp</DIV> <DIV>2) Please fix reflect he dont work at all make it work at 50% chance we gonna be more wanted in raid</DIV> <DIV>3) Bria adept 3 only 32 regen per tick its too low we dont see any difference and other too should be like t6 food</DIV> <DIV>4)Maestro should be back at what he was again balance with dirge but dirge have a TONS MORE TO OFFER IN RAID</DIV> <DIV>5)Eli's is too slow to cast reduce the casting time</DIV> <DIV>6) Dove song effect is ridiculous on or off again we dont see any difference</DIV> <DIV>6)Selo should have an upgrade we are bard we should be faster make it at 46% speed</DIV> <DIV>7) Our melee dps is too low we are scout as dirge and any other scout class</DIV> <DIV>I think its good to give us spells but most of it are too low We need A BOOST IN MOST OF THEM</DIV> <DIV>No one want a troub they prefer get any other class, as raiding what we give is a joke compared to any other class  Fix us Troubadour class is dieing....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[pera]

Aye I agree with most of what your saying Cidus, If SoE's vision of a troub is a caster augmenter then why dont we have buffs to Int/Wis.  These two are the primary stats of a caster.  Bria's is at best situational for the most part IMO the regernation is nice in long fights and raids, but in a well rounded group a mob rarely ever last longer that 30-40 seconds. That is a regernation of 160 (32*5) power, just about the cost of most of our spells, or to give us a little edge while useing our debuffs. I have seen a small help when useing dove song, but its only marginal, hardly worth useing a Cons slot for it.  If you are fighign mobs that are 4th level yellows or 1st level orange you can see a small differance but any diviation from these two level ranges there is pretty much no differance at all. We either need to be great buffer/debuffer and have ok dps, or be an ok buffer/debuffer and have good dps.  At the moment i would say we are situationally good buffers and generaly ok dps. <div></div>

[Belisarius]

<P>Reworked the post, still needs alot of work I am aware of this. This is something I will continue over the holiday. If you find any problems with or want to flame me keep it in private. I'd like to keep the main body of the post professional and constructive.</P> <P>Thanks for all the help and ideas guys!</P>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Cleaned up the post some more. (Had my wife spell check it =p) Changed a few things around. Soon I will be adding another section to this post on a weekly basis. Once I have figured out how I will be adding this I will be asking from some help from others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the support guys!</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<P>Jehannum,</P> <P>I agree with you on Daelis. The INT buff is nice, with it and a few other INT buffs I can cap out my INT easy and am seeing 365 dmg cap (listed on spell) on Aria Master 2.</P> <P>I do belive this line should give another effect though. The fact that it is a self buff that is taking up a conc slot to me means it should be a much more powerful song.</P> <P>I will add this song to the listing under the "Other Songs" section soon and include the ways you adviced to improve the spell.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>perano,</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I agree with you on adding int/wis. However the one thing that bothers me about adding stats is that they are easy to cap now with proper t6 gear and buffing and then the song is of no use. Instead of adding these I did advise in my post that the attributes that these stats buff are directly increased. This would give these songs a usefull effect even if the individual you are buffing is at the hardcap on stats.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Belisarius on <span class=date_text>11-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 AM</span>

[Artorio]

SOE has to get rid of concentration usage on self buffs.  Other than that we either need to be able to do more DPS or have all of our buffs increased.  Look at the bright side though, at the rate SOE is going, every spell should have it's own individual icon by 2006.

[Boombastix]

<P>Requiem of Reflection is utterly useless and is going to be made less than useless with the next patch.  I've tried it out on a few raids now and it procs very, very infrequently.  Of course you have to take non physical damage for it to proc so the first hit isn't reflected and the next one is probably over 30 seconds away so what is the point!?  In addition it was only ae's that were procing it which will no longer be the case after the next LU. It's worthlessly useless crap.  I would like to be compensated not only for the pearl I wasted on this song but also the electicity I used to display the icon on my screen in the first place!</P> <P>I believe this is the number 1 Troubador issue at the moment so can you please fire the 1000 monkeys with the 1000 typewriters who developed this spell in the first place and get a dev to redo it.</P>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Boombastix wrote:<div></div> <p>Requiem of Reflection is utterly useless and is going to be made less than useless with the next patch.  I've tried it out on a few raids now and it procs very, very infrequently.  Of course you have to take non physical damage for it to proc so the first hit isn't reflected and the next one is probably over 30 seconds away so what is the point!?  In addition it was only ae's that were procing it which will no longer be the case after the next LU. It's worthlessly useless crap.  I would like to be compensated not only for the pearl I wasted on this song but also the electicity I used to display the icon on my screen in the first place!</p> <p>I believe this is the number 1 Troubador issue at the moment so can you please fire the 1000 monkeys with the 1000 typewriters who developed this spell in the first place and get a dev to redo it.</p><hr></blockquote>only 50+ spell I havent bothered to get an adept 3 for. came across an adept 1 for 10g and still feel ripped off though. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[Belisarius]

<div></div>Runspeed "fix" coming down the pipes from Test. SoW will not stack. There is no increase to our runspeed song. This will be added to our list of issues the day this goes live. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Belisarius on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 PM</span>

[otlg]

<DIV><FONT face=Century>Let me just take a sample of the very first post:</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Raxxyl's (+str,+sta)</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>(-) With the type of stat gear that is dropped in T6 hardcaps on statistics are easy to reach, once his has occurred this spell is usless. </FONT> <LI><FONT size=2>(+) Good in theory.</FONT> <LI><FONT size=2><STRONG>(*) Add an additional effect other than stats such as a direct increase to what the stats increase. This way this spell could bypass hard stat caps.</STRONG></FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=4><FONT face=Century size=3>Sorry, but why oh why do you think you have some right to bypass the hardcaps in the game.  Now I'm not trying to beat on my Troub friends, but reading the 'summary' post on the forum is a joke.  Every single fix consists of either increase DPS or let us do something that will badly break the game.  The entire reason for the combat patch was really the fact that Troub buffs (and some others) trivialized mobs in the old combat system if done correctly.  Sony can say it was class balance or whatever, but the real reason was groups of 6 people taking out epic 57x4 mobs.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4><FONT face=Century size=3>Do I think troubs should get some sort of attention, certainly, however, in reading the first post at the top of this thread it seems you want to be the uber buffers and mass direct DPS dealers.  I mean why not ask for some healing abilities as well?  Those hard caps are in the game for a reason, and the simple reason is this:  That's what the developers feel is the maximum level of stats that should be applicable for the content currently available in the game.  To go beyond them would trivialize the game.  This is a 'bad thing'(tm) and why we all went through the grief and aggravation of the combat patch in the first place.  Please don't ask for the same thing again!</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4><FONT face=Century size=3>Osiri</FONT></FONT></P> <P>[Edit for this point]</P> <P>Just to be clear, I'm not saying you don't need a DPS increase, but you should quantify that DPS increase.  Be very clear what you are asking for, because, as an outsider reading this post it sounds like 'give me, give me, give me' with no justification as to why.  And my guess is that's how a dev would likely read it too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by otlg on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 AM</span>

[Andric_D]

<span><blockquote><hr>otlg wrote:<div></div> <div><font face="Century">Let me just take a sample of the very first post:</font></div> <p><font color="#ffff00" size="2">Raxxyl's (+str,+sta)</font></p> <ul> <li><font size="2">(-) With the type of stat gear that is dropped in T6 hardcaps on statistics are easy to reach, once his has occurred this spell is usless. </font> </li><li><font size="2">(+) Good in theory.</font> </li><li><font size="2"><strong>(*) Add an additional effect other than stats such as a direct increase to what the stats increase. This way this spell could bypass hard stat caps.</strong></font></li></ul> <p><font size="4"><font face="Century" size="3">Sorry, but why oh why do you think you have some right to bypass the hardcaps in the game.  Now I'm not trying to beat on my Troub friends, but reading the 'summary' post on the forum is a joke.  Every single fix consists of either increase DPS or let us do something that will badly break the game.  The entire reason for the combat patch was really the fact that Troub buffs (and some others) trivialized mobs in the old combat system if done correctly.  Sony can say it was class balance or whatever, but the real reason was groups of 6 people taking out epic 57x4 mobs.</font></font></p> <p><font size="4"><font face="Century" size="3">Do I think troubs should get some sort of attention, certainly, however, in reading the first post at the top of this thread it seems you want to be the uber buffers and mass direct DPS dealers.  I mean why not ask for some healing abilities as well?  Those hard caps are in the game for a reason, and the simple reason is this:  That's what the developers feel is the maximum level of stats that should be applicable for the content currently available in the game.  To go beyond them would trivialize the game.  This is a 'bad thing'(tm) and why we all went through the grief and aggravation of the combat patch in the first place.  Please don't ask for the same thing again!</font></font></p> <p><font size="4"><font face="Century" size="3">Osiri</font></font></p> <p>[Edit for this point]</p> <p>Just to be clear, I'm not saying you don't need a DPS increase, but you should quantify that DPS increase.  Be very clear what you are asking for, because, as an outsider reading this post it sounds like 'give me, give me, give me' with no justification as to why.  And my guess is that's how a dev would likely read it too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Message Edited by otlg on <span class="date_text">11-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think the one of the basic problems here is that folsk think our buffs are a trade off for dps - but our buffs are not in any way 'uber' and mostly only marginally usefull. Indeed one of the main points of the recent combat update was to reduce the actual and posible impact of buffs. They suceeded but in the process balanced the buffing classes pretty much as if the buffs were as effective as before the update. Our buffing of other classes is and was of some use but our most usefull buffs used along with others classes special dps abilities it was seen as over powered so we got nerfed in that area heavily - reducing our ability to boost others dps significantly as well as reducing out own solo dps as well. This leaves us as underperfoming in all areas. Do all the suggestions need implementing? probably not - but with so many weak and/or useless skills we need to point out where the problems are and also suggest solutions. If devs are really so shallow and ignorant of the way troubadours are that they will dismiss our problems because of presentation issues on a forum then the whole game is doomed not just our class. I do not beleive that is the case though. </span><div></div>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andric_D wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the one of the basic problems here is that folsk think our buffs are a trade off for dps - but our buffs are not in any way 'uber' and mostly only marginally usefull. Indeed one of the main points of the recent combat update was to reduce the actual and posible impact of buffs. They suceeded but in the process balanced the buffing classes pretty much as if the buffs were as effective as before the update. Our buffing of other classes is and was of some use but our most usefull buffs used along with others classes special dps abilities it was seen as over powered so we got nerfed in that area heavily - reducing our ability to boost others dps significantly as well as reducing out own solo dps as well. This leaves us as underperfoming in all areas.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#99ff99>Oh I certainly agree you guys need some of your buffs improved (and your DPS).  I group with a troub or two on a fairly regular basis and during raids when there are some available.  The problem before was with the right buffs and the old combat system, you could literally have a tank stand against a mob many levels higher and not even get hit (by boost avoidance > 100%).  In typical Sony style they went too far back the other way though.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do all the suggestions need implementing? probably not - but with so many weak and/or useless skills we need to point out where the problems are and also suggest solutions.<BR><BR>If devs are really so shallow and ignorant of the way troubadours are that they will dismiss our problems because of presentation issues on a forum then the whole game is doomed not just our class. I do not beleive that is the case though.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#99ff99>Well it's not just presentation.  The post I referenced didn't ask for anything tangible.  Nebulous comments tend to get overlooked by the devs (and in my books, 'increase dps' is a nebulous comment).  If you want proof of this look at the success Wardens had by appying numbers to their requests.  While they didn't totally get fixed, they did get attention.  This is all I'm suggesting, along with providing a caution.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff99>The entire reason I came to this thread is someone copied it into another forum on here (in testing feedback).  If the thread is going to be posted in other forums, ostensibly for the purpose of gathering support, I think it's important that what is being asked for is clearly stated.</FONT></P> <P></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#99ffcc>Osiri</FONT><BR>

[Belisarius]

This post is a growing work. I am here to help serve my Troubadour community. I -strongly- welcome ideas on ways to improve this post such as layout, wording, new ideas ect. If you have ideas that you feel can be better implimented in other ways or general changes to the post please PM me directly and I will discuss the issue further with you. <div></div>

[pera]

Aye, with our current spell line the troub is no longer the "defencive" bard.  The dirg really fills this role much better, and offencive melee as well.  The troub at its current state really doesnt have a nich, (imo) we can do a lot of things and work well with most groups. But unlike our counterpart it seems the troubs spell line has no real focus to it.  Basicly it looks like a bunch of stuff was just thrown together from various other classes. This in part is what makes the troub a good addition to almost any group, reguardless of make up.  Imo our buffs are majorly lacking since our dmg that we can do is very low.  In a group we can really shine with the dmg bounces that we give to other classes, but when soloing this can be very diffecault.   But being resoucefull i think the troub can actualy solo quite well.  by using Charm and mez we are very effective soloers against an encouter that has multiple mobs. mez one, charm one encounter debuff the rest and have at them.  Now heroics i'mnot really sure how well this works, but using this method i'm able to solo lvl 55- groups of heroic mobs.   Now on solo mobs this method is extreamly effective. <div></div>

[Belisarius]

<P>Much needed press:</P> <P><A href="http://eq2.crgaming.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#3300cc>http://eq2.crgaming.com/</FONT></A></P> <P>Good things happen guys, keep the positive feedback going. I will be making some changes to the post soon with some paser information and rewording of a few things.</P>

[Jak]

I love this thread.  I hope it helps.  However, I am of the opinion that SoE doesnt really care all that much about our issues and has no intention of reading this post or looking into our concerns.  They changed our class totally without caring about how we felt about it.  They gave us useless spells like reflection and swansong without caring that they are useless.  They then decided to nerf the only two spells that make playing a troub fun, again without caring too much about our concerns.  Face it for SoE to fix the troubador class they have to care a little and they dont.  <div></div>

[911GT3]

One thing that could help us out alot would be to make our 1 self buff, jig of blades i think its called, not cost any concentration. <div></div>

[pera]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Also another thing that would be nice to have and i never understood why it was not like this already, But all maintained buffs (require a concentration) should be toggleable.  You should not have to search through your buff windows looking for the icon of the buff you watn to turn off so you can apply another one.   As far as i know the only buff that is like this is our Seranade series. And on the subject of the troub class haveing lower dps because they are  buffing class.    I have no problem at all with being a buffing class, thats pretty much the reason i chose to play a troubador, but after LU13 the usefullness of buffs was drasticly reduced.  The thing is our dps as a class didnt really get balanced out for this this change.   We basicly have the same dps we did before LU13, but with much weaker buffs.  There really was not a trade off.   One of two things really should happen either our buffing abilites need to be increases, (and i'm saying this for all utilty classes) or our dps should be increased.   Increaseing a utitlies' buffing abilites in some areas probably would out balance things a bit, but as a troub, we severaly need an increase in our caster buffing abilites.  We are supposed to be caster buffers right ?  Well we only have two abilites that are geared twards casters, our swan song line, and Aria's line.   you can not count Maestro's because one spell at 58 levels into the class, can not be used to define a class. Or increase the dps that we can do as a class, remove the conscentration on our self buff, and give a little bit back to Aria's. Allow us to effectively do something well.   We are not a jack of all trades and we are not a specialty class.   The troubador abilties only shine but can easly repalced by a chanter in a majorty mage group. And one last thing above all else, please, please, please, either remove Requiem of Reflection from the game and replace it with something else, or add/do something to it to make it usefull. <p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 AM</span>

[Belisarius]

<P>Well said. One thing i've notced from other people that are not familure with the Troub class is they think we are asking for everything after reading this post. </P> <P> </P> <P>I would prefer Troubs to have an increase in their buffing abilities, not DPS. However, at the moment both are underpowered and I therefor listed them both in this post. I will be correcting that with a rework of this post in the near future with more of a focus on our buffs and omitting parts of the DPS section to draw more attention to the buffs.</P>

[Belisarius]

<P>I have removed the DPS section of the post so that more focus can be given to our songs. I would also like to update this post once a week with a new section which focuses in on one song that we are all having issues with. Each week i'll post the name of the song and ask for other Troubadours to speak their minds on that song.</P> <P>With that being said, I would like us to focus in on <FONT color=#ff0000>Requiem of Reflection.</FONT> </P> <P>Please post ideas you have for the song, problems you have with the song, compare it to our Dirge friend if you would like. Lets try to point our fingers at one song at a time now.</P> <P> </P>

[Windain]

<DIV>While the concept behind requiem is good, the mechanics in this game make the spell practically useless in any form it will achieve.  That is unless it becomes similar to the illusionist spell 'spell shield', which would make it auto reflect the next spell or two on the group.  Give it a 30 minute timer and make it reflect the next 2 spells on each party member.  No concentration.  Then, I will use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, just change the spell completely into a different type of group buff (maybe a song that lowers spells damage by a %... maybe about 25%).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Windain on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Thanks, just the type of thing I was looking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone can help me gather stastical data on the spell that would be good to. PM me  with data and how you recevied it if need be. Many different situations would be good, I will see about getting myself put int my guilds MT group some to get some of the data that way.</DIV>

[Llewrend]

<DIV>This is my first post on this forum.  I have a level 60 Troubador and am in the #1 rading guild on our server.  Approximately half of the gear I have is Fabled.  All of my spells from level 40 up are a minimum of Adept 3.  I have a good number of Master 1's as well.  In the level 40 to 50 range I have 8 masters and in the 50+ I have 5 master 1's.  Fortunately, I am invitied on most raids, and that is only because I have a power regen song.  Reading the notes from test I see that power regen is going to get a gimping in LU #18.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like the majority of posters in this thread, I too am completely frustrated with this class since the gimping started with LU #13.  After putting as much effort and time into this character as I have, I hardly consider rerolling to another class to be an option.  I have really expected SOE to realize how much this class is gimped and to fix it at some time.  I am at the point now where I have about lost hope.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In LU #13, the developers talked about balance.  I have to laugh at this when I see level 60 summoners solo level 57 ^^^ with ease.  I have beaten a couple level 54 heroics, but not easily.  That is about the best I can do.  Doing the Peacock quest series was fairly frustrating, especially that instance in the Tower of the Moon thing.  After dying 4 times a Paladin friend of my helped me duo it.  I attempted it about another 12 times but evaced out when it was apparent I was not going to win the first fight zoning in.  How can you put a solo quest series in and not all classes can solo it with the same ease.  This is part of game balance in my opinion.  Doesn't seem the developers put much thought or effort into balance here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some pet peeves are listed below:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Balletic Avoidance (Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in the Main Tank group a couple nights ago, only because none of the dirges showed up.  I was checking the MT's avoidance with and without this spell.  The change this spell made to avoidance was 55.5% to 57%.  A 1.5% change.  Net conclusion is this spell is worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Raxxyl's Brash Descant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell at adept 3 increase STR / STA by 57.  The MT in our guild has uber gear and is above the caps.  For raiding purposes, this spell is hardly woth the concentration required to put it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Aria of Exaltation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is OK and I try to keep it up at all time.  This is the only spell I put up other that power regen that seem to be of some help to group members.  This spell has a 30% chance to proc some damage (210 to 350 hps at 388 INT).  Nerfs to this spell were very disappointing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Opus (haste)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not one single person has noticed if I have haste up or not.  Melee dps classes have personal haste spells of like 75%.  With their gear, I believe they are next to cap already.  I have not really read up on this, but just from personal observation, no ever asks for this, no one notices if it is up or down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Heat, cold, magic, mental, divine resistance buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no complaints here.  On raids these have value and depending on the mob, people in the group appreciate the resistance boost these add (1067 heat and cold at master 1 and 883 magic, mental, and divine at master 1).  Every once in a while I am recruited to the main tank group for these buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  Alin's Tranquil Serenade (Hate reducer)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use this spell but the effectiveness is questionable at best. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Bria'sGlorifying Ballad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>32 power regen if in combat.  Has to be my best spell and the thing the troubador is most wanted for by a group.  As seems typical for this class, this is getting gimped in LU #18.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8.  Requiem of Reflection</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At adept 3, has a 10% chance to engage upon casting a spell and if it kicks in, lasts 30 seconds.  If it kicks in it has a 73% chance to reflect spells level 60 and below. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is a total joke, even though it sounds cool.  I never see it go off.  It may be of some help to the main tank group, but they designed the Troub to be in the DPS groups.  Also, when raiding, mobs are typically level 64 and 65.  Overall, useless spell.  Fix it or give us something that actually does something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9.  Selo's Accererondo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Run speed bump of 34%.  This is nice and no complaints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10.  Quiron's Blissful Celebration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health regen of 58 in combat only is useless in my opinion for a concentration slot.  Without concentration I would use it.  This is about 1 to 1.5% a tick.  Big whoop de do, peaple notice this.... not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11.  Debuffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs are ok but all take power constantly as long as they are up.  Power is sucked dry very quickly.  Hmmm... what do I do then to help the group.  Nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>12.  DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only classes I out DPS on raids are the clerics and sometimes the tanks.  But somehow Troubadors are overpowered.  ROFL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13.  Mez and Charm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mez is ok.  Last 40 seconds.  Tanks in EQ2 are so conditioned to hit all mobs periodically during fights that this is useless and rarely used in group situations.  Raiding of course epics... totally useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm....  maybe my biggest pet peeve of all.  Yes, I did play EQ1.  I did npt expect EQ2 to be the exact same as EQ1, however when I saw charm in the spell list, this was a big reason I decided Troubador was the class I wanted to play.  I played a chanter in EQ1 and charming mobs and turing them against other mobs had to be the most fun thing there was.  Sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for charm to break and having two angry mobs coming after you.  But I digress.  What is charm in EQ2.  Well, first off it takes a concentration slot.  Second, you can't send your charmed pet to attack.  [Removed for Content] is this.  Its a long duration mez.  Given how gimped Troubador DPS is, you would think thay might allow a Troub to charm a mob when solo at least.  But no.  In stead, another useless spell.  I know some will say but wait... it helps this and that.  This is not the charm I was expecting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In summary, I am not very impressed with this game.  The developers release stuff that is obviously not tested very well.  After something new is placed in the game, all I see are [Removed for Content] to it.  Reasons for gimping: change is needed so as not to trivialize mob encounter.  I guess this stuff is never picked up in testing.  Seems to me that they should realize people hate it when their capabilities are reduced.  People love it when you increase capabilities.  I don't see much love.  Especially for the Troubador.  I have a number of alts including a 48 Swashbuckler and two mid 30 healers (Warden and Templar).  From my experience, I do not know of any class as gimped as a Troubador, with as many useless spells.  After LU #13, developers surely didn't know what to do with Troubadors.  And please note I agree some changes were needed, because raid encounters were trivialized before that.  However, we are now going into LU #18 and there is no love for the Troubador.  Also note that no changes are planned for the Troubador in LU #18.  I am getting tired of waiting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The conclusion I have came to is that I am dumping this as soon as Vanguard comes out, maybe sooner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Signing out.... Have a nice day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[cid]

<DIV>I totally agree with you Llewrend,</DIV> <DIV>Troubadour is probably the worst class to play, When dirge hit the star.</DIV> <DIV>Our class is very [Removed for Content] we  are not needed anymore, this class is dieing big time</DIV> <DIV>And what Dev do for us nothing, im seriously thinking to play another MMO too</DIV> <DIV>Troub need a FIX, what's the point to play a class useless an pay for it every month?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MaNiaGG]

<div></div>The biggest issues are the following (in my oppinion): Elis' is way too weak, so much casting time and so little damage - and the range sucks. Please look at this spell and adjust it. Daelor's: Come on, 1.5% Avoidance for the tank is too less for a concentration buff, this spell needs a fix  - or at least doule the effect it has atm. Precision: Please increase the damage output a bit (or let it last longer). Its our uber damage spell and atm too weak imho. Attack Speed Buff is totally useless because 90% of the damage come from ca's Our autoslay damage is total crap, you can also turn it off and won't even really notice it. Please enhance it. What ROCKS playing a troub (for raiders<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Deaggro spell is kickass, Aria of Exhaustion is quite good. Imho, thats it - we're invited in raid groups because of two buffs (Bria's isn't really needed anymore, atm it's all about fast DPS), so please look at our class, Sony <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by MaNiaGG on <span class=date_text>12-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 AM</span>

[MaNiaGG]

<span><blockquote><hr>Belisarius wrote:<div></div> <p>Well said. One thing i've notced from other people that are not familure with the Troub class is they think we are asking for everything after reading this post. </p> <p>I would prefer Troubs to have an increase in their buffing abilities, not DPS. However, at the moment both are underpowered and I therefor listed them both in this post. I will be correcting that with a rework of this post in the near future with more of a focus on our buffs and omitting parts of the DPS section to draw more attention to the buffs.</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, if we would have five buffs (one for each concentration slot ^^) which are decent, I wouldn't mind my crappy damage - but as it is atm, it just sucks. Neither we do damage, nor we really bring some good buffs to the table which another class would not do as good as we ware doing it. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<DIV>Requiem - ad1 - 10% chance to proc, ad3 - 11% chance to proc, master 1 - 12% chance to proc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after proc, for 30 seconds you have a 73% chance to reflect a spell your level or under for 100% of it's damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you figure that the most damaging spells/abilities of a mob are gained at around their level, this makes the spell mostly worthless when fighting higher conned mobs.  Also, with the casting times and combat techniques that mobs use, the 30 second window often will go unused (73% chance to reflect after a crappy percentage to proc is a SICK joke).  Then add in that the spell doesn't effect breath weapons or AEs anymore...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, let's recap, virtually no reward to upgrade the spell, can't reflect "predictable spells" (AEs, breaths), crappy chance to reflect after proc, and lower than necessary spell level reflects, general immunity/resistance to spell damage by mobs that cast that damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As has been said before, this spell needs to be a fixed percentage chance to reflect a spell back at the caster (e.g. shimmering star BP).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ONLY thing making this spell even slightly worth the conc. is a lack of good alternatives to play.</DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>Haste song:  T5 Master 1 is 19.9% (master 2 at 20% even)haste, T6 ad1 is less than 18% haste... this is broken (previous tier master is generally close to if not equal to the next tier's ad1 spell)</P> <P>ALSO the lvl 14 master 2 spell quality is 14.6% (or there abouts), so with all our tutelage and study we've managed to maybe add 5% haste over the course of 40+ levels.  Wow, we're such badass buffers...</P>

[Windain]

<DIV>Boy I could go on a nice rant about haste, precision, etc but im trying to hold off until he switches the topic off our most useless song, Requiem of Reflection(just change it to a fluff spell that makes everyone look like a mirror, id use it then).</DIV>

[Llewrend]

<DIV>Does anyone else wonder why SOE has so many spells with power drain.  A number of classes have it, however Bards ruled in this area.  At one time, this had some use.  It was fun gimping mobs by draining power in those long fights.  As we all know, this supposedly trivialized encounters.  The solution ... make epic mobs immune to power drain.  In regular grouping situations, fights go so fast that power draining has no benefit.  It makes me wonder why they still have it.  Seems to me SOE is missing out on an interesting area of battle managment.  Maybe if you could get more power back than what the spell uses it might have some benefit to the caster.  Anyway, this was another huge Bard nerf with no real solution ever patched in.  Couldn't something have been done with this to make it useful to some degree ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Llewrend</DIV> <DIV>60 Troubador</DIV>

[schwantz007]

<P>First of all excellent post. Hopefully it will open the right eyes and finally have our post LU13 mess fixed.</P> <P>Requiem of Reflection. As with all who have posted above, I never ever use this song. Even if it did NOT consume a concentration slot it is doubtful that I would waste the mana on it. I mean really, a 10% chance to trigger and then a 30% chance that it doesn't work after that. I am no statistician but ... Like Windain I agree that a variation on the illusionist that consumed NO concentration would be somewhat useful. Otherwise I would like to see a new line, say a debuff against elemental dmg etc introduced. If this can't be done I would like to see the line scrapped entirely. We survived without it for a long time and almost all of us continue to do so. I would really like someone to convince me that this spell is useful, for I fail to see the light.</P> <P>Keep up the good work Belisarius. Many of us have put substantial time into a character which is now broken and entirely different then the one we rolled. Ou issues need to be addressed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>PS; heh I just had Exhilirating Opus (Master I) drop which increased group haste from 18% to a whopping 23%. Heh, maybe your next spell to address? :smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[Jehannum]

<P>First, my addition to the general consensus on Requiem - it sucks donuts.  Sorry, no, that should read "dog nuts."</P> <P>I'm still hoping that it'll either be made a straight % chance to reflect a spell at an upgrade-improved percentage of its original power, up to 5 levels above the troubadour's current level - but I'm not holding my breath.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Llewrend wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is my first post on this forum.  I have a level 60 Troubador and am in the #1 rading guild on our server.  Approximately half of the gear I have is Fabled.  All of my spells from level 40 up are a minimum of Adept 3.  I have a good number of Master 1's as well.  In the level 40 to 50 range I have 8 masters and in the 50+ I have 5 master 1's.  Fortunately, I am invitied on most raids, and that is only because I have a power regen song.  Reading the notes from test I see that power regen is going to get a gimping in LU #18.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like the majority of posters in this thread, I too am completely frustrated with this class since the gimping started with LU #13.  After putting as much effort and time into this character as I have, I hardly consider rerolling to another class to be an option.  I have really expected SOE to realize how much this class is gimped and to fix it at some time.  I am at the point now where I have about lost hope.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In LU #13, the developers talked about balance.  I have to laugh at this when I see level 60 summoners solo level 57 ^^^ with ease.  I have beaten a couple level 54 heroics, but not easily.  That is about the best I can do.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I took a Sha'ir down to 65% without ever dropping below 90% health or 75% power, and didn't continue because I didn't want to waste the time; another troub in my guild did take down a sha'ir, but had to run when the second wave of the ring arrived.  Granted, it's not easy, but it's not all that difficult either so long as you're patient and careful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Doing the Peacock quest series was fairly frustrating, especially that instance in the Tower of the Moon thing.  After dying 4 times a Paladin friend of my helped me duo it.  I attempted it about another 12 times but evaced out when it was apparent I was not going to win the first fight zoning in.  How can you put a solo quest series in and not all classes can solo it with the same ease.  This is part of game balance in my opinion.  Doesn't seem the developers put much thought or effort into balance here.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Haven't done that so I can't comment; I'm only on the Living Tombs parts of the Peacock quests as yet.  Got whupped badly trying to do the Service of the Master there, though I might have done better had I buffed before zoning in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some pet peeves are listed below:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Balletic Avoidance (Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in the Main Tank group a couple nights ago, only because none of the dirges showed up.  I was checking the MT's avoidance with and without this spell.  The change this spell made to avoidance was 55.5% to 57%.  A 1.5% change.  Net conclusion is this spell is worthless.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Weak, yes.  Worthless, no.  And the change from 55.5 to 57% is closer to a 3% relative buff.  Not that I'd argue the basic point, which is that it's not terribly effective.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Raxxyl's Brash Descant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell at adept 3 increase STR / STA by 57.  The MT in our guild has uber gear and is above the caps.  For raiding purposes, this spell is hardly woth the concentration required to put it up.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The only time I use this is when I'm in a scout-heavy group and we're expecting to eat some AE.  Stamina's not worth it in any other case, and nor is the strength.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Aria of Exaltation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is OK and I try to keep it up at all time.  This is the only spell I put up other that power regen that seem to be of some help to group members.  This spell has a 30% chance to proc some damage (210 to 350 hps at 388 INT).  Nerfs to this spell were very disappointing.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>This is one of my 4 favourite general purpose songs; it's about a 20% dps boost for me and a 10% for any offensive caster in my group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Opus (haste)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not one single person has noticed if I have haste up or not.  Melee dps classes have personal haste spells of like 75%.  With their gear, I believe they are next to cap already.  I have not really read up on this, but just from personal observation, no ever asks for this, no one notices if it is up or down.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Guess which is the only spell I haven't even bothered to pick up at Tier 6.  I'm almost never required to boost melee dps groups (surprise, surprise) and when adventuring I never elect to be in such a group.  There's really no reason to use this when it's such a marginal upgrade over the T5 version's Adept 3.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Heat, cold, magic, mental, divine resistance buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no complaints here.  On raids these have value and depending on the mob, people in the group appreciate the resistance boost these add (1067 heat and cold at master 1 and 883 magic, mental, and divine at master 1).  Every once in a while I am recruited to the main tank group for these buffs.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Great songs, circumstantially... And do exactly what's required when required, so no complaints here either (though I'd be even happier if they stacked troub-to-troub as well, there's no reason they need to)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  Alin's Tranquil Serenade (Hate reducer)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use this spell but the effectiveness is questionable at best. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I know some warlocks, wizards and even swashies who love this song; hence, so do I.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Bria'sGlorifying Ballad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>32 power regen if in combat.  Has to be my best spell and the thing the troubador is most wanted for by a group.  As seems typical for this class, this is getting gimped in LU #18.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I must have missed that in the patch notes; I'll check after I'm done replying.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8.  Requiem of Reflection</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At adept 3, has a 10% chance to engage upon casting a spell and if it kicks in, lasts 30 seconds.  If it kicks in it has a 73% chance to reflect spells level 60 and below. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is a total joke, even though it sounds cool.  I never see it go off.  It may be of some help to the main tank group, but they designed the Troub to be in the DPS groups.  Also, when raiding, mobs are typically level 64 and 65.  Overall, useless spell.  Fix it or give us something that actually does something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9.  Selo's Accererondo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Run speed bump of 34%.  This is nice and no complaints.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>My only complaint here is that if we're to get a runspeed upgrade every 14 levels up to a point, why stop there?  Granted it doesn't have to be more than a marginal upgrade (2% speed, or a few points of mit/focus as granted by specialty mounts, for example, would work) but <STRONG>something</STRONG> would be nice.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10.  Quiron's Blissful Celebration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health regen of 58 in combat only is useless in my opinion for a concentration slot.  Without concentration I would use it.  This is about 1 to 1.5% a tick.  Big whoop de do, peaple notice this.... not.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Useful only for mezzing single heroics to death, in case you get whumped and need to regen some.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11.  Debuffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs are ok but all take power constantly as long as they are up.  Power is sucked dry very quickly.  Hmmm... what do I do then to help the group.  Nothing.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>With more than one troub on a raid I've found that splitting debuffs (i.e. two apiece) works nicely and allows for very slow depletion of power, as long as Purloin hits.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>12.  DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only classes I out DPS on raids are the clerics and sometimes the tanks.  But somehow Troubadors are overpowered.  ROFL.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Get a parser which understands that Dissonant Note and Precision are thanks to your action and not the mage's (or slog through manually), and I suspect you'd see things differently.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13.  Mez and Charm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mez is ok.  Last 40 seconds.  Tanks in EQ2 are so conditioned to hit all mobs periodically during fights that this is useless and rarely used in group situations.  Raiding of course epics... totally useless.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Actually, a number of ^^^ "epic" critters can be mezzed.  Many can't, granted, but for some raids at least CC is still valuable.  Tanks may be conditioned to hit things but they can be retrained.  A little effort can pay rich dividends in group survival when faced with (say) 2 djinn and 4 ^^ minos against a 58 tank in Poet's Palace.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(snip)</DIV> <DIV>The conclusion I have came to is that I am dumping this as soon as Vanguard comes out, maybe sooner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Signing out.... Have a nice day</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Rather than making a comment about the door hitting you or the grass being greener I'll hope you find what you seek with Vanguard... I don't think we're as broken as you seem to believe and am thus a bit more willing to await fixes for the more troubling issues.<BR>

[Llewrend]

<P>In response to <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=56729" target=_blank><SPAN>Jehannum</SPAN></A>'s post:</P> <P>1)  I agree it is possible to beat a Sha'ir.  But thats only because you have a ton of room to kite it around.  In cramped spaces this style of fighting is not an option.  When I posted I was thinking of the latter type of battle because those are the type required for the quest I am working on.  The point I was trying to make was about class balance, and when it comes to soloing, we are not balanced.  I think SOE could easily balance our class if we were given a true "EQ1 like" charm that we were able to use when not grouped.</P> <P>2)  Reading your post, I believe you basically agreed to most commnets I made on Troubador spells, with the exception of Alin's Tranquil Seranade.  In theory this is a very useful spell however it is my personal observation when raiding (epic x4's level 65 and up) that the swashbucklers and warlocks (and other dps classes) still frequently peel the mobs and die.  Just might take them a little longer to peel the mob than they would otherwise.</P> <P>3)  Parsing....  I don't parse myself but a parse is displayed after almost all of our raid fights.  So I do see the numbers frequently.  Using the numbers you quoted from your parsing, you say that Aria of Exhaltaions bumps DPS by 10% for DPS classes.  Now lets say you have 3 DPS classes in your group along with a Troubador, a tank, and a healer.  Now compare this to having four DPS with the tank and healer.  I think its easy to see that Aria of Exhaltation does not make up for our lack of DPS for the group.  Don't get me wrong though, this is probably my favorite Troubador spell.  I just don't think you can make the point that it is all that awesome.  Its just nice.</P> <P>4)  Two Troubadors in a group...  In all the time I have played my character, I have been in only one group when there were two Troubadors first off.  Second, I am thinking of raiding more than xping and in this situation you would never ever put two Troubadors in the same group.</P> <P>5)  Power Draining...  you comment that you can power drain a mob when Purloin Essense hits.  See my above post.  Power draining is no longer effective in any situation I know of.</P> <P>6)  Mez... check the spell and it says it does not work on Epic mobs.  I am not referring to ^^^ mobs, I am referring to Epic x4 and x2 mobs.</P> <P>My post was intended to point out my observations regarding deficiencies with the Troubador class.  I was hoping to make the point that SOE has not achieved class balance as it stated LU #13 was going to do.  This is particularly true for Troubadors.  I am hoping possibly some developers might read this stuff (and thanks to all the previous posters. especially Belarius), and take a look at what we are saying... and ultimately fix this class.</P> <P>I know I came off sour grapes in my first post.  I would like to apologize for that and I will blame it on the beer talking.  My apologies for that.  I enjoy playing MMORPGs and I will be playing EQ2 for some time.  Vanguard has just gone to beta and is not expected to go live until June 2006 or so.  However, when it comes out I plan to give it a serious look.</P> <P>Llewrend (60 Troubador)</P> <P><BR> </P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV>I agree, we are not *AS* broken as most think, although some of our skills like RoR could use another glance or redefining. It seems to me as I read a lot of threads about dirge v troub and likewise comparisons, the majority want to buff melee classes like it is the greatest thing in the game to do. Figuratively most of us would agree to buff the melee classes over casters because we are scouts. (as i see it.) Only since the combat changes did all the classes become balanced to each other, their counterpart, and recieved certain skills that make each class its own specific job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I don't want to incite any upset feelings but I feel that after the changes, my job as a troubador (no matter how much i loved being near invincible pre-revamp) has become much more enjoyable. I can't raise the debate with other bards about how we can setup our songs so we don't overwrite eachother, but I can now throw most of them up and be able to enjoy a group with another bard. Also, those that still think that troubadors are nerfed simply because we have a more specific job to do, should rerole a dirge so they will be much happier. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the look of it most of the players in this thread have relearned how to play their class and like it? I surely do, and I surely get upset when people say we are nerfed or broken, because I have no trouble being a wanted player in the game and in the guild I am a part of. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all those that oppose... rerole.</DIV>

[CarlTe]

Don't be ignorant. You don't have the right to tell someone to re-roll as a dirge because they don't like the changes as if someone were to tell you to re-roll as a wizard because you like the changes. People spend countless hours developing there character and telling them to just re-roll is obnoxious.

[Azadar]

I agree with most of the points being raised here. My biggest issues right now are : 1) Requiem of reflection: I have tried very hard to find a use, in many different situations, but its just not worth the 1 concentration slot. 2) Eli's thunderous line : Casting time is too slow for its damage even at master1 3) Raxxyl line : The str/sta buff isnt enough to be any help even at master1. Maybe add a fixed amount of hp to the spell? For example master1 could be 65str 65sta 500hp. 4) Balletic avoidance line : Effect is not noticable even at master1. If this spell could affect mitigation then it would be usefull Hopefully some dev will look into these issues, until then keep up the good work on the thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azadar17 wrote:<BR>I agree with most of the points being raised here. My biggest issues right now are :<BR>1) Requiem of reflection: I have tried very hard to find a use, in many different situations, but its just not worth the 1 concentration slot.<BR>2) Eli's thunderous line : Casting time is too slow for its damage even at master1<BR>3) Raxxyl line : The str/sta buff isnt enough to be any help even at master1. Maybe add a fixed amount of hp to the spell? For example master1 could be 65str 65sta 500hp.<BR>4) Balletic avoidance line : Effect is not noticable even at master1. If this spell could affect mitigation then it would be usefull<BR><BR>Hopefully some dev will look into these issues, until then keep up the good work on the thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree Raxxyl's is lacking a little something.  I was thinking that combining Raxxyl's and our Avoidance song into one conc. slot would be a good thing to do.  Each song is really weak by itself (especially in the endgame).  Dirges should get their parry song and stat songs combined too.  If this is a poor idea, then add in the HP like the previous poster said.</P> <P>I'll agree with some of the other sentiments though, we're not "unplayable" but we aren't the "buffers" we used to be or are expected to be and our individual dps is lacking for a scout class.  If we're caster buffers, make our buffs count more (while I have seen some effect from the swan/dove song line, it's really not effective enough to take a conc. slot).  Aria was/is our only GOOD caster buffing spell and it has already been nerfed in the name of "balance".  We also received nothing to help our dps when that nerf came around.</P> <P>We aren't broken, but we sure as hell aren't "balanced" for scouts.</P>

[cid]

<P>Hello all,</P> <P>In reponse to Balmung </P> <P>I think we must play a different class,</P> <P>First telling pepole to reroll as dirge it's not respectable some troubadour like me play for one year, why should i reroll and</P> <P>forget about all effort i puted and time and money?</P> <P>second your guild raid? how many troubadour you have in your guild? how is your raid is organised you prob have one caster group, so it's one spot for one troubadour..</P> <P>Third you tryed reflection he work for you? how you help your guild in raid you charm the mob and use it as pet? or maybe your high dps will make the difference? or dove song make the difference because less fizzle? oh wait maybe you play str sta and ur caster see the big difference ?</P> <P>I'm sorry i dont enjoy being a caster bot buffer, it's not what i choosed to be when i rolled this class.</P> <P>Man i'm not sure you play the troubadour at lvl 60 or maybe you lvl 30 or maybe you another class, but telling you enjoy your troubadour it's like telling us you enjoy being a bot who like go afk and run around if it is what u enjoy any class can do that!</P> <P>Sorry we want to be active, we want our class back we want to feel we make something!</P> <P> </P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P></P> <HR> cidus wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hello all,</P> <P>In reponse to Balmung</P> <P>I think we must play a different class,</P> <P>First telling pepole to reroll as dirge it's not respectable some troubadour like me play for one year, why should i reroll and</P> <P>forget about all effort i puted and time and money?</P> <P>second your guild raid? how many troubadour you have in your guild? how is your raid is organised you prob have one caster group, so it's one spot for one troubadour..</P> <P>Third you tryed reflection he work for you? how you help your guild in raid you charm the mob and use it as pet? or maybe your high dps will make the difference? or dove song make the difference because less fizzle? oh wait maybe you play str sta and ur caster see the big difference ?</P> <P>I'm sorry i dont enjoy being a caster bot buffer, it's not what i choosed to be when i rolled this class.</P> <P>Man i'm not sure you play the troubadour at lvl 60 or maybe you lvl 30 or maybe you another class, but telling you enjoy your troubadour it's like telling us you enjoy being a bot who like go afk and run around if it is what u enjoy any class can do that!</P> <P>Sorry we want to be active, we want our class back we want to feel we make something!</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you feel like you're a bot on raids, you aren't working hard to maximize your contribution.  Maybe your guild doesn't need you (bummer for you).  My guild desperately needs and wants troubadors for raids (we have 2, both lvl 60).</P> <P>We have different play styles.  One troubador will generally go in and melee more focusing more on str, agi and int, then I will generally stay ranged to avoid any AEs, use my attacks and keep the debuff songs up.  This way I don't have to joust anything, can mez if emergencies arise and can make sure that the mob stays debuffed without the other troubador losing potential dps.  Also, by me staying ranged, I can virtually guarantee that I won't die and our casters will be able to work more efficiently (less hate gain, regen up).</P> <P>Granted, neither of us are great DPSers, but we play our roles well.  The only time things are "boring" in a raid is if the mob is trivial with respect to our level or the mob is mental immune.</P> <P>I LIKE playing my class.  I have adapted and I'd say I'm less of a buff bot now than I was pre LU13.  Combat is more fun now and I have more variety on how to play my character.  My DPS sucked before combat revamp, but I helped the raid through my songs.  My DPS is better now, but not where it should be IMO. </P> <P>Cidus, you're just as out of line for saying that Balmung is "playing a different char" than you as he was for telling you to reroll.  I disagree with your wishes for us to go back to how we were because I prefer the new troubador to the old one.  I feel we need to be boosted a bit and we'd have a more desirable class to play.  I'm neither right nor wrong (same can be said about your opinion).  The thing that we are doing that you are not doing is providing realistic and specific ways that our class can become better.  If you would choose to offer constructive criticism of the class rather than saying "it's broke" you'd have more people backing you up.</P> <P>my $.02</P>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Llewrend wrote:<BR> <P>In response to <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=56729" target=_blank><SPAN>Jehannum</SPAN></A>'s post:</P> <P>2)  Reading your post, I believe you basically agreed to most commnets I made on Troubador spells, with the exception of Alin's Tranquil Seranade.  In theory this is a very useful spell however it is my personal observation when raiding (epic x4's level 65 and up) that the swashbucklers and warlocks (and other dps classes) still frequently peel the mobs and die.  Just might take them a little longer to peel the mob than they would otherwise.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I do actually agree with most of it; as far as Alin's goes I'd contend that since the CU aggro management has become very much a group effort, as in EQ1 - those grabbing aggro on raids are the people who believe it's a race for dps, when actually it's a game of brinkmanship - the closer you can come to drawing aggro through dps, without actually stealing it, the better.  We simply give people a tougher threshold to reach, but it's still fully possible to over-aggro.</FONT></P> <P>3)  Parsing....  I don't parse myself but a parse is displayed after almost all of our raid fights.  So I do see the numbers frequently.  Using the numbers you quoted from your parsing, you say that Aria of Exhaltaions bumps DPS by 10% for DPS classes.  Now lets say you have 3 DPS classes in your group along with a Troubador, a tank, and a healer.  Now compare this to having four DPS with the tank and healer.  I think its easy to see that Aria of Exhaltation does not make up for our lack of DPS for the group.  Don't get me wrong though, this is probably my favorite Troubador spell.  I just don't think you can make the point that it is all that awesome.  Its just nice.</P> <P>4)  Two Troubadors in a group...  In all the time I have played my character, I have been in only one group when there were two Troubadors first off.  Second, I am thinking of raiding more than xping and in this situation you would never ever put two Troubadors in the same group.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>4 troubs and a dirge show up for the same raid, on a poison-AE mob... whattayagonnado? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>5)  Power Draining...  you comment that you can power drain a mob when Purloin Essense hits.  See my above post.  Power draining is no longer effective in any situation I know of.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Misunderstanding here - I didn't mean that the drain was effective on the mob side of things (in fact, it doesn't drain power but converts mob health to troub power) but it can be very useful for adding extra power "regen" to offset the recurring cost of our dot and debuffs.</FONT></P> <P>6)  Mez... check the spell and it says it does not work on Epic mobs.  I am not referring to ^^^ mobs, I am referring to Epic x4 and x2 mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I know what the spell says... However, what it says didn't prevent my being able to mez a few of the secondary mobs in Epic encounters (some harpies, the Green Gardeners, etc) in al'Afaz and I've been likewise able to cast it on other mobs elsewhere which do have a ^^^ EpicX4 tag.  It never works on the main mob, and usually if there're only 1-2 "little" epics it won't affect those either, but for any encounter with bulk ^^^ "Epic" mobs the littluns usually mez/root/stun/stifle just fine.</FONT></P> <P>My post was intended to point out my observations regarding deficiencies with the Troubador class.  I was hoping to make the point that SOE has not achieved class balance as it stated LU #13 was going to do.  This is particularly true for Troubadors.  I am hoping possibly some developers might read this stuff (and thanks to all the previous posters. especially Belarius), and take a look at what we are saying... and ultimately fix this class.</P> <P>I know I came off sour grapes in my first post.  I would like to apologize for that and I will blame it on the beer talking.  My apologies for that.  I enjoy playing MMORPGs and I will be playing EQ2 for some time.  Vanguard has just gone to beta and is not expected to go live until June 2006 or so.  However, when it comes out I plan to give it a serious look.</P> <P>Llewrend (60 Troubador)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Like I say, I suspect VG isn't going to be all sunshine and roses either, but no worries as to the sour grapes - I think at one point or another (and often several) most of us have entertained similarly dark thoughts about the state of our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just one other thing tho... You actually want our charm taken to a 3 second cast which breaks in 15? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I've found that usually so long as I stick to non-arrow mobs mine lasts nicely... I've actually used blue solos to tank groups of green non-arrow heroics too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, as to the sha'ir, the technique required almost no room at all... the technique was stun, Shrill, mez, wait, repeat.  Only resisted two mezzes and I ran to extreme range until the resist recast delay was up.</DIV> <DIV>EDIT - forgot, this was prior to the stun change for ^+ critters, these days I'd have to do the shrill/stun the other way around for safety.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jehannum on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jehannum on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

[cid]

<DIV>If you feel like you're a bot on raids, you aren't working hard to maximize your contribution.  Maybe your guild doesn't need you (bummer for you).  My guild desperately needs and wants troubadors for raids (we have 2, both lvl 60). <P>We have different play styles.  One troubador will generally go in and melee more focusing more on str, agi and int, then I will generally stay ranged to avoid any AEs, use my attacks and keep the debuff songs up.  This way I don't have to joust anything, can mez if emergencies arise and can make sure that the mob stays debuffed without the other troubador losing potential dps.  Also, by me staying ranged, I can virtually guarantee that I won't die and our casters will be able to work more efficiently (less hate gain, regen up).</P> <P>Granted, neither of us are great DPSers, but we play our roles well.  The only time things are "boring" in a raid is if the mob is trivial with respect to our level or the mob is mental immune.</P> <P>I LIKE playing my class.  I have adapted and I'd say I'm less of a buff bot now than I was pre LU13.  Combat is more fun now and I have more variety on how to play my character.  My DPS sucked before combat revamp, but I helped the raid through my songs.  My DPS is better now, but not where it should be IMO. </P> <P>Cidus, you're just as out of line for saying that Balmung is "playing a different char" than you as he was for telling you to reroll.  I disagree with your wishes for us to go back to how we were because I prefer the new troubador to the old one.  I feel we need to be boosted a bit and we'd have a more desirable class to play.  I'm neither right nor wrong (same can be said about your opinion).  The thing that we are doing that you are not doing is providing realistic and specific ways that our class can become better.  If you would choose to offer constructive criticism of the class rather than saying "it's broke" you'd have more people </P> <P> </P> <P>Hello,</P> <P>Focus on agi?? we can buff agi well tell me what song?  ya you can mez but enchanter can do it better than us...</P> <P>about our debuff yeah you have alot of class who can do ten time better swash, mystic, inquisitor and more im pretty sure</P> <P>hehe i wont let a troubadour buff melee  but more a dirge imaho </P> <P>Ok so you offer constructive criticism your self ? hehe  if you scroll up maybe u gonna see i talk about what we should fix!</P></DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cidus wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Hello,</P> <P>Focus on agi?? we can buff agi well tell me what song?  ya you can mez but enchanter can do it better than us...</P> <P>about our debuff yeah you have alot of class who can do ten time better swash, mystic, inquisitor and more im pretty sure</P> <P>hehe i wont let a troubadour buff melee  but more a dirge imaho </P> <P>Ok so you offer constructive criticism your self ? hehe  if you scroll up maybe u gonna see i talk about what we should fix!</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>One can focus on agility by equipping oneself with certain gear.  I was not talking about group buffs.  Who cares if an enchanter mezzes better than us (IT'S ONE OF THEIR CLASS DEFINING ABILITIES!!!).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing about those other classes is that our debuffs STACK with theirs.  They SHOULD be debuffing and the net effect of everyone's contribution is a more controllable mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I checked your fixes and they're generally overpowered and you bookmark your recommendations with unsubstantialized rants about how the class is dying and how nobody wants us (which couldn't be further from the truth).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>let's go over your suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-give us int/wis group buff - good in theory, but in caster classes, mages approach the int cap themselves, our resistance songs work better than wisdom buffs in most scenarios</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-reflect doesn't work at all - this is incorrect, it does work, 50% chance to proc reflect is rather high though, DEVs would laugh this suggestion off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-bria's is too low (our t6 regen buff is higher than chanters base group power regen, it will not be increased any more)  Chanters get other ways to improve power regen over us, but once again (CLASS DEFINING ABILITY), it seems you also are referring to Quiron's because you mention food, I agree that Quirons could use a buff to it as HP is effected at a MUCH greater rate than power is (it would also make up for lack of DPS in solo situations more, especially post Aria nerf)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Precision, you want it to go back to the way it was, but you argue dirges have it better (they don't, especially when they are typically in the MT group and only a handful of guilds have multiple dirges at their disposal for a melee MT group).  We have a select advantage at being able to do damage with Precision at both long and short ranges.  Dirges cannot say the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Eli's is too slow to cast - /agree 100% (the interrupt on movement is also an annoying aspect of this song)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-You don't see an effect with Dovesong - /shrug I do, YMMV.  I typically stay ranged and cast, I see more spells hit with Dove Song on high yellow/orange mobs raiding, and the same when I'm solo or grouped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Selo's should be increased - this is completely ridiculous, we're already faster with Jboots than the majority of the player base.  To increase our speed even more would be completely unfair for the people that have to purchase expensive mounts to "catch the bard"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Melee dps is too low - you mean auto-attack or CA's?  I think our melee CA's could be ramped up a bit, I suppose.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do need something though and the only "non-breaking" (assuming our group songs are where they're "intended to be) additions they could give to our class are increased individual damage, stronger Quiron's healing line, offensive and defensive stances <STRONG>or</STRONG> poisons to augment melee dps.</DIV>

[cid]

<DIV>To answer forgotten founding</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm Reflection work well you the first troubadour i saw say reflection work! he dont work for me tell me your secret please!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As precision of maestro dont worth invite us in raid any wiz taking our spot will do more damage!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dove song work for you on orange mob? sorry i dont see any difference !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Selo's why not they upgrade speed of many mount why not bard?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our dps is only better than healer and we are scout class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need a lot of fix if u enjoy your troubadour with reflection , dove song, and our dps good for you this not my case</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not ask them to let us tank as mage heal as warrior and dps like a cleric im sure you would be happy</DIV>

[Mulilla]

<DIV>I've lost all my faith in devs fixing the class i signed in and wich i loved and still do, so i just report bugs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balletic Avoidance: lvl 60 spell</DIV> <DIV>Its background color is yellow, but it is a group buff, so it should be blue</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mulilla - <Mare Nostrum></DIV> <DIV>60 Troubador from Crushbone</DIV>

[Sanju]

<div></div><span>I /bug'd that first day, as I'm sure many other people did ... regardless if a mis-colored icon was the only thing wrong with troubs, I'd be a very happy guy.<blockquote><hr>Mulillla wrote:<div>I've lost all my faith in devs fixing the class i signed in and wich i loved and still do, so i just report bugs:</div><div> </div><div>Balletic Avoidance: lvl 60 spell</div><div>Its background color is yellow, but it is a group buff, so it should be blue</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Mulilla - </div><div>60 Troubador from Crushbone</div><hr></blockquote></span><span>While I appreciate the effort and intent of this post, the format and content is too muddled. It's not until halfway down that you even start listing the spells/CAs. Simple is better, and condensing much of the editorials from the original post will help greatly with it's readability and impact.There are also many ommissions, most notably Lore's (Magniloquent) Roust -- this is the defense debuff (or quick HO flipper) that has a "mana drain" attached to it. It's supposed to make the mob consume 64% more power every time he casts a spell. The problem is that for non-epic mobs, they generally die way too fast for this to ever come into play. Epics, of course, are seemingly immune to power drain. The secondary effect on this is unnoticable and worthless.I'd suggest a reformat of the original post, with a simple listing of the spells, removing the exposition, that are either broken or underpowered/useless/questionably effective.</span><div></div>

[pera]

Mana drain against most mobs is pointless, at least our mana drain is.  Even with a full group of people attemping to drain power from a mob very rarly does it have any effect.  Well at least in the case of named or raid mobs, and in all reality those are the only mobs that power usage really matters. Please either remove power drain effect from our abilties and bost the dmg/debuff to compensate or make power drain effective. <div></div>

[Mulilla]

<P></P> <P>regardless if a mis-colored icon was the only thing wrong with troubs, I'd be a very happy guy.<BR></P> <P>I totally agree, but my sadness is beyond that.  I honestly think that bard nerfing (sorry to use that word) is quite intentional.  I mean, something makes me wonder why are we the only ones without stances, why do we have a spell wich is so lame as RoR wich not only is quite useless (although you can use it in some situations, but you loose a conc slot wich is more valuable) but also gets "nerfed" a couple of times.  I would like to know what was thinking the nerf bat guy when decided "this spell is way overpowered, lets tune it down a bit".  I mean, it is working as intended, and it is a complete PoS.</P> <P>I know, because i read the forums, that are some classes who are probably more [Removed for Content] with the changes than we are, but i am sad when i notice that this one is not exactly the class wich i wanted to play at the begining.  I get used to the changes, because i know that i wont decide how is going to be my class in the future, but maybe a developer/designer who probably dont play a bard.</P> <P>Maybe we are overpowered as others say, but honestly dont think so.  The fact is that we whine too little compared to other classes, maybe that's the mistake, because its harder to be heard in a crowd if you don't yell.</P> <P>I'm glad to have a consolidated troub issues, but i would focus it in reporting what is really important better than give a personal opinion on what the spells are and what could they be.  RoR is almost useless, we dont have stances, some of our utility buffs aren't so usefull...</P> <P>If i only knew that ONE dev/designer plays a troub i would be more than happy, because it is so obvious what are the current deficiencies, that they would be on the "to do" list inmediatly.</P> <P>Lack of communication from devs + current issues make Mulilla a sad bard (although he is a troub <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) so, since quite a long time, i just report what i know will be fixed someday (as the background color).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>PS: Please, excuse my english, i try to do my best <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV>Well honestly if all you can do is complain about your class, there's no reason to play it. You guys need to realize that other classes like Guardians, Templars, Paladins, Defilers, Wardens, and a few other classes have it just as bad as you tend to think yours is. And really now if those of you that comlpain about dirges being overpowered because they buff melee better than troubadors, rerole and find out for yourself. They aren't as great as you think. Dirges have just as big of a problem as we do. In response to those thinking I'm ignorant for telling the ones jealous and complaining about the troubador class to rerole, tough. I never feel like a bot in raids. I'm constantly doing something within melee range and still making sure my mages are at maximum dmg output. Enchanter reflect is broken too, other mages buffs are dumbed down now also, when most of you guys complain that troubs having something broken, take a look at other classes with those same abilities, because they are the same way. Put yourself in a devs shoes or how about the shoes of the person coding the game and its properties... not so easy is it? Nope, because they have to deal with and find a way to make every complainer happy.</DIV>

[osaka]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>While I agree that most classes have their own problems (which may or may not be as bad as ours), that is for them to discuss on their own boards.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I’m glad that you are content with the current state of troubadors, but as you can see from the other posts, not everyone feels the same.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Who are you to say that they can’t voice their opinions on what they think is broken.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If they don’t try to get things fixed/changed, then who will?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>And telling someone to re-roll because they don’t like a few aspects of their character is just plain stupid.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Azadar]

The nerf on requiem of reflection was a side effect. The real spell that needed nerfing was illusionist reflect spell ( dont know the name and im too lazy to llook it up). Its a buff that reflects the next 3 spells cast on target. So basically before the nerf you could send in a level 50 player with this buff on to eat the big dragon AE. Due to low level of the player, the AE would hit for 15k + dmg but ti would be all reflected back on the dragon... Thats the reason why it was nerfed. And since our requiem of reflection uses the same mechanics it was nerfed... Anyway thats how I think it happened, I could be wrong but thats the best explanation I could come up with for that nerf. So now we have a 1 concentration song that is never used. Lets cross our fingers and hope for a dev to actually do something about it. <div></div>

[pera]

In a few cases the spell can be usefull but only where there are fast dots, other than that it really doesnt do anything but look pretty when it procs. <div></div>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> osaka wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>While I agree that most classes have their own problems (which may or may not be as bad as ours), that is for them to discuss on their own boards.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I’m glad that you are content with the current state of troubadors, but as you can see from the other posts, not everyone feels the same.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Who are you to say that they can’t voice their opinions on what they think is broken.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If they don’t try to get things fixed/changed, then who will?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>And telling someone to re-roll because they don’t like a few aspects of their character is just plain stupid.</FONT></SPAN></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Players obviously voice their opinions, and I never said they can't share it. What they should do is file the bug report and the feedbacks. The developer's will get to it when they can. Not everyone can have what they want, and need to just deal with it. The rerole comment goes to the players that whine and complain to the bitter end about how they want to be more like a dirge, and wouldn't it be better if they just played a dirge then? Common sense would tell most people "yes, i think if i want to be more like a dirge, then i should become one" It's not about time invested or anything like that. It's about if you don't like the class, then don't play the class. Would you continue to touch a hot stove because you didn't like what it did to your hand? No you wouldn't, same goes for classes.

[CarlTe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Balmung of the Azure Sky wrote:<BR><BR></P> <P>Players obviously voice their opinions, and I never said they can't share it. What they should do is file the bug report and the feedbacks. The developer's will get to it when they can. Not everyone can have what they want, and need to just deal with it. The rerole comment goes to the players that whine and complain to the bitter end about how they want to be more like a dirge, and wouldn't it be better if they just played a dirge then? Common sense would tell most people "yes, i think if i want to be more like a dirge, then i should become one" It's not about time invested or anything like that. It's about if you don't like the class, then don't play the class. Would you continue to touch a hot stove because you didn't like what it did to your hand? No you wouldn't, same goes for classes.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All in favor of shutting down the troubador forum and using bug reports as our line of feedback say I. I'm sure that will work really well.:smileyindifferent:<BR></P>

[cid]

<P>Balmung,</P> <P>first if you played a troubadour before , this class was very similar to dirge  so Yes pepole ask their class back!</P> <P>Because when they rolled their toon at beginning troubadour was not caster bot but more mellee buffer</P> <P>If you not happy with pepole complaining well dont read it ! and stop telling pepole to reroll they invested their time and money</P> <P>why they should roll back and start over again?</P>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR>Mana drain against most mobs is pointless, at least our mana drain is.  Even with a full group of people attemping to drain power from a mob very rarly does it have any effect.  Well at least in the case of named or raid mobs, and in all reality those are the only mobs that power usage really matters.<BR><BR><BR>Please either remove power drain effect from our abilties and bost the dmg/debuff to compensate or make power drain effective.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is a huge issue for Troubs, seeing as at one time we were amazingly good power drainers.  All of our DPS was mediocre because of this.  We were balanced around that, and since power draining has been a negligible ability in game for quite some time now, nothing has been to address this for Troubadors.</P> <P> </P> <P>Good post.</P>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

Put it this way, if players are getting so much grief because they want the old world troubador back, they shouldn't play a new world troubador. If players constantly complain about how they want to be the exact same as a dirge then they should play a dirge. Thing is, is that everyone in this class forum wanted along with 25+ thousand other players to have their class be completely different from all the others in the archetype and cross-archetype. Now most of you I know for a fact would agree to having your class be completely different from everyone else, because then what is the difference if you played any other class since they would be the same. Players pushed for Sony to make all the classes have their own defining characterisitics. Hense the complete revamp and balancing of classes. Only now people are too upset with what has happened and want to go back to the same old dirge and troubador are the same thing again? I don't think so. Is it only me that sees the problem with this? If you don't like what everyone wanted "Revamp of skills and abilities to make each class seperate from all the others" then 1. don't play the game OR 2. roll a different class. Like I said before it DOES NOT MATTER for the time put in, because if it is not what you want to spend your time on, then don't play the dang thing. Restating to me that it is idiotic for me to give the option to rerole or stop playing the game is worthless to do. If you don't like it, then don't do it. It's a common sense issue not time invested. And yes I have played a bard since eq1 Darksong on sullon zek and I have a 60 troubador and 54 dirge on unrest. I know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to troub v dirge comparison.

[pera]

<div></div>I personaly, for the most part, like the direction the troubador is moving in.  The debat of i want that classes skills, or i want what the dirge has i really think doesnt really pay any weight.  Both classes are very differnt and at the same time share some of the core abilities.  A skilled player of either class is alwasy an exceptional addition to almost any group/raid or even solo. There are short commings that i believe the troubador class has, I dont think you can really point at any class and honestly say i want to be more like that and still be a bard.  the focus i was tring to say in some of my posts are, yes we are a buffing class, that is and always will be what the bard, drige, troubador is.   Yes both dirge and troubador shine in situational groups.  IMO when the two are in the same group and there is a balance between casters and dps(scouts)  the potititial of that group is amazing.  Very few archtyp classes boost a group so well when grouped together as the dirge and troub. But that aside, after LU13 the effectiveness that buffing brought to a group/raid was drasticly reduced.  This was all good and well for most classes because they where not "buffing" classes.  For the most part only encanters and bards were hurt a lot by this, but their really was not any compinsation to the loss of abilites. With the current state of the game group setup, (in a lot of cases not all) really doesnt matter near as much as it should, i understand soe wanted to not let one class make or break a raid, but honestly unless you want very little stratagy to beat encounters that is a great way to do it.  At the moment most raid/group encounters are just run in debuff, slash, heal, nuke, and repeat.  In most cases there is very little that required other than that. yeah i know i went off on a few differnt tangents there, but i guess it gets my points across. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Nevari]

*nod*<div></div>

[Azadar]

Well said Perano <div></div>

[cid]

<P>Hello,</P> <P>troubadour before was having a good population now on my server you have only a few who play this class their is a reason behind that... and if you look at dirge population  you have dirge everywhere again their is a reasons behind that.. </P> <P>In my guild who is high end raid guild we have like 5 dirge but only one troubadour me again their is a reason behind that.</P> <P>That's resume everything</P> <P>Regard</P> <P> </P>

[Belisarius]

Someone else will need to take over this post. I quit... not the post mind you, EQ. Things are not getting fixed, well let me rephrase, they try and make it worst. I've stayed positive as long as I could but even I have my limits, they have been reached. I'm tired of it all. One less lvl 60 Troub to take the loot, peace out. Level 60 Troubadour ~~Gone for good, SOE get your act together~~ <div></div>

[Azadar]

Im gonna stick around for a while longer, im confident sony will eventually fix things. They always take alot of time but in the end stuff gets fixed/balanced. <div></div>

[CarlTe]

<DIV>Obviously you never played Star Wars Galaxies.:smileymad:</DIV>

[Azadar]

Actually I did but not for long. The reason why im confident in sony fixing the broken stuff in the long run is because of what they did with EQ1. Even though the game wasnt designed to be played for so long, they managed to do something cool with it. <div></div>

[Belisarius]

Lol, SWG Well, I look at it this way. Sure they will fix it. Do I want to wait on them to fix it? No, i've waited long enough, i've given them their chances. So forget it, I gave up. All I can say is WoW, have fun while you can dont sit around waiting for things to be fixed. If your not having fun get out before you regret the time you spent waiting. <div></div>

[Dali]

I have no big issues with the class anymore since I dinged 58. PotM is simply amazing compared to what a Dirge's Cacophony of Blades does. Okay, we don't do amazing personal damage (I get outdamaged by my bro, who's a pally), but Precision does cut down the time needed to kill nameds by one half, if not more. And we have a lot of versatility - not many unique abilities, but we we have movement speed, haste, mez, charm, decent resist songs (at M1, of course), good procs, hate reduction... none of which are essential, but the right combo can boost your group quite a bit.IMO, a lot of perceived problems with the class could be solved by making Precision a line instead of a one-offer. Spread it out among the levels, giving an upgrade every 10-12 levels, and you'll hear a lot less complaints. That, in conjunction with fixing the casting time on Eli's.PS: Yes, I do have a few fableds, Masters and Adept3s. So does everyone else at 55+.

[cid]

<P>Hello,</P> <P>You should prob raid high end content you gonna see how useless is troubadour.</P> <P>Mezz is good but in raid very useless, as maestro you can cast it one or two but any caster will add more damage to raid...</P> <P>So all that said i retired my troubadour and prob cancel my account once he expired i dont wanna restart over, and i don't wanna</P> <P>Pay for class i didnt choosed at beginning(troubadour was so different before lu13) as someone say WOW(is prob the mmo im gonna play till vanguard come)</P> <P>Dev choosed too ignore Troubadour complain and force them to play a class they didnt choosed i never wanted to be a caster buff bot. If when i chooseed my class i was knowing Troubadour=caster buffer i never chooseed this class. And for fix hehe Good luck for those who waiting, Troubadour is prob the last priority of dev</P> <P>Dev don't care now more than before many troubadour have already left this game!!</P>

[pera]

<div></div><div></div>Though another sorc/(real)scout would add much more damage than we coudl with maestro's alone, our 49% hate reducetion allows them to go all out much sooner and much longer than they ever would be able to before.   This is just one of our many abilites that help the group, though we are a buff bot. and yes that realy is all we are, because the damage we do is neglageble at best. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">12-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:14 AM </span></p> <p><span class="time_text"> In all honesty we should have better damage, or better buffs one or the other.  Majorty of classes buff the group in one way or another and some classes for special things much better than we can.  thats not the problem i have with it its that those classes have a primary ability also.  Tank, Healer, Dps,  We are neither of the three we are a buffing class, but the problem is all of these classes buff also so really we are left out in the cold a bit here on our abilites other than a buff bot. </span></p> <p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<P>Transfer our power drains to actual damage until its fixed.</P> <P>Get rid of our melee buffs and go all out caster buffs, or give us more melee buffs and make us a true hybrid instead of gimped both ways.</P> <P>That's about it.  </P> <P>Honeslty, I loved the game when power draining was crucial and you raid mobs weren't pure luck in a lot of cases.  It was nice to know that you would run in, drain a mob, and its damage would stop spiking so much and you could concentrate on the actual fight. </P> <P>Perfect example was the first time we killed Lord Nagalik (which was a worldwide first also).  Everyone said he was unkillable because he auto attacked for 4 - 5k, and had 3 specials for 9k - 12k.  BUT, low and behold, if we could get in there and keep the tank up for a minute or 2, we could drain Nagalik's power and then turn our attention to the adds, as he was just auto attacking now.  Don't get me wrong, his autoattack could still beat the hell outta a tank if you weren't careful, but it wasn't luck anymore.  </P> <P>That was the high point of this game.  That was the pinnacle of encounter design and it was a blast.  Its never been like that since.</P>

[Mr.Probl]

<DIV>I agree <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=43123" target=_blank><SPAN>Belisarius</SPAN></A>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think troubadors hae gone in teh right direction with the expation. alot more utilitys, this is what i think of when i think bard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But when SoE was redeveloping us they shot a little low on how well they allow us to do our job in respects to other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great ideas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: My mana ticks down faster then any mage with ym debuffs on while i'm batteling.<BR></DIV>

[Nevari]

<div></div>Nearly everything of what bugs me with the subclass was posted allready so let me just say:Nowdays I feel kinda bored in raids even tho I understand the make-or-break approach was and is stupid, give us anything to make the time worth? Pretty please dear devs? <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>Yes I was very cautious about the changes. Played with the redefined role. Got to like it and call it jealous but then you see how others classes do their job or shine I get a bit jealous. <span>:smileytongue:Main goal was balance. So please balance the Troub too. You far from being done SOE.</span><p>Message Edited by Nevarion on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Mulilla]

<div></div><p>Is it possible that someone has finally listened to us?</p><p></p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=100">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=100</a></p><p>Troubador changes:- Requiem of Reflection now triggers slightly more often.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Well... now it triggers almost never, but even a slight increase makes me a little happier</p><p> </p>

[VericSauvari]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mulillla wrote:<div></div><p>Is it possible that someone has finally listened to us?</p><p></p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=100">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=100</a></p><p>Troubador changes:- Requiem of Reflection now triggers slightly more often.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Well... now it triggers almost never, but even a slight increase makes me a little happier</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>lets only hope it procs off more then just static pulse :S</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>is it just me or is this the FIRST troubador related change/fix that was announced/helpful in the last 5 months..</p><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p>

[Ballads]

<div></div>Better question might be, is there even a 52+ troubador on test sever to test it before it goes live ?<div></div><p>Message Edited by pickle27 on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:58 AM</span></p>