At this time do Troubs REALLY help groups?

[WooTast]

I'm generally the last to whine, but another post in one of the other whining <span>:smileywink:</span> threads really got me thinking.  At this point, does the total package that troubs bring to a group or a raid REALLY help enough to make them worth the last spot in the group? The 'jack of all trades, master of none' model has been around mmorpg's for a long time. But at some point, when a class is not even a jack, but merely a 4 of diamonds, at each "benefit" they bring to a group, then the model has failed. Just saying "jack of all trades" is not enough.  A jack has to be a jack. I really wonder what the devs. vision of this class is. A few things about the troub. class to note.  Each of our "benefits" stands on its own; there is no synergy. I'm not saying that there has to be synergy, but more that it would be wrong to analyze the class by thinking that adding up all our little things brings more than . . . the sum of a bunch of little things. And that's the sentiment among a lot of troub players -- a bunch of our little things were made even littler. Ask yourself this: if you were building a well-balanced 6-member group, why would you want a troubador? What does a troubador bring, in whole or in part, that outweighs the addition of either another dps class (so the group can kill that much faster and need less power, less healing, etc.), a fighter class with high dps, or perhaps another healer class. Single-target mezz is the only thing that comes to mind, and the NEED for that is very situational. <div></div>

[Dystopya]

Yes. Groups still want us. Mana regen and dps is enough. Were not a necro, warlock, assasin or ranger in dps, but we can hold our own. Get us in with a group full of casters and the group is levelling [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in no time. <div></div>

[pera]

I personaly have no problem at all gettting groups, and augmenting their abilites.  Though our buffs dont really shine for melee classes it does quite a bit for casters. <div></div>

[shortfa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR>I personaly have no problem at all gettting groups, and augmenting their abilites.  Though our buffs dont really shine for melee classes it does quite a bit for casters. <BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I personally do not have trouble getting into groups also. While its true that our buffs do assist melee classes a wee bit (Haste song, Str Sta buffs), the effects i feel are not very significant. However since we're not supposed to be melee buffers anyway, i am fine with the current melee buffs. </P> <P>My main gripe currently is what we as troubadors bring to the caster group. since our aria line was nerfed, and we don't group buff intel, the buffing of the casters aren't very obvious (other than our lower hate line which in a sense enables casters to cast more and hence get more dps). I understand that we can lower the chance of resist with the songster's luck line, but once again as i just stated, the results aren't very clear cut. So which of these buffs are the ones that really shine? I'm not aiming this as an insult to the quoted poster but as a genuine question. Thanks alot <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Andric_D]

<div></div>Apart from the fact folks want mana song it is far to dependent on group make up and in most cases other classes would be better - not so much though to make it worth while not taking a troub. Folks will take troubs and we are generally welcome but to often I am finding folks think we can buff like we did before the combat update rather than what we can do now. I also often get asked to res and do other dirge abilites - there are too few of us and few know what we do. If it is a mellee centric group you are far better with a pure dps class for dps, a dirge or an enchanter. Even with 3 offensive casters its marginal on dps as dps classes can do over our max damage add on 3 offensive classes if you are mainly fighting singles - adept 3 aria = 275max with  average of 1 proc per 'round' of spells on a single target if all the casters cast ofensively - on a group of 3 monsters and 3 casters it begins to get closer to real dps figures but the nerf to ae has made this far less  for us to ad to a group over over a pure dps class. Our debuffs in group fights can help but things die so quickly most of the time that its only noticible diference on high HP targets else we lose dps casting them on many encounters. We do help a lot on ae casting groups. its boring and most of our mellee abilites are totally wasted - we may as well go on auto-follow and get lunch in that type of group. Even then more than the damage add they want mana regen and the agro reduction song(if they know about it even). Dirges have the same problems with group make up and this is the fundamantal problem with the way they have split the bard classes. we are inherently broken as we can only make a significant diference in particular types of groups. No other class suffers from this situation and it is never going to be balanced. Dirges are atm slightly better off as they can significantly improve their own performance as they are a mellee class buffign a mellee class. we are a caster buffers buffing a mellee class so we have an immediate disability to our usefulleness to our selves even. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 PM</span>

[Claritin]

<P>Ok.. which spells make us "caster group" on raids... say at lvl 60.</P> <P>1.) Precision of the Maestro... adds proc to every spell cast.  Casters cast ALOT. (NO CP REQUIRED)<BR>2.) Daeli's... increases our INT... which increases the values of Precison (#1)<BR>3.) Alin's calming serenade or whatever our best version is... which keeps the casters alive through aggro reduction... this is thier #1 pet peeve is dying when they "go all out"<BR>4.) Power regen... going OOP makes casters 100% useless... melees have auto attack... they do not.<BR>5.) Dove Song (songster's luck line) reduces both fizzles and resists... also common complaints.<BR>6.) Aria of Excitement... adds 30% chance to proc on spell casts.  Casters cast ALOT.</P> <P>While rooted (think Precision) if a mob moves away our ranged attacks are our only option... these use INT.</P> <P>Troub + Fury + Necro + 3 other mages = Happy Claire on a raid. (Fury and Necro have INT buffs)</P> <P>Now I am not saying that I am the elite of the elite on picking buffs... but that is what I do... and it works VERY well.  Many Troubs will keep up things like Haste or Raxxyl's... so that they can melee better... but that IMHO is the INCORRECT train of thought... buffing yourself and the skills that are likely out of range (str) or unusable (auto-attack off during Precision) is quite simply illogical... add in the fact you are buffing 1 melee vs 4 casters (pretend the fury is just healing MT) and it's flat out absurd...</P> <P>Now... in a melee group</P> <P>1.) Haste<BR>2.) Raxxyl's<BR>3.) Power Regen<BR>4.) Hate reducer<BR>5.) Aria of Excitement<BR>6.) Precision</P> <P>While that also works... it's less of a boost.  Scouts have the high DPS... but also the best aggro shedding tools... so while lowering aggro is great it's not as important.... they also cast... but slightly less often... and when they run out of power they still have auto attack.  Fizzles do not bother them as much nor do resist rates.</P> <P>So yes... Troubs are caster group on raids if you only have 1 troub.</P> <P>in exp groups Troubs are OK because the best things for exp groups is downtime reducers... power and hp regen help alot... and we can mix up the other buffs to fill stuff in... I am pretty likely to drop hp regen and just keep power regen and max out the teams DPS as best I can paying careful attention to class mix.... </P> <P>Group = Haste + Raxxyl's + Power regen + Aria of Excitement  + Daeli's most of the time.... and Precision saved for larger group encounters or nameds because that is where it "shines" since recycle time is faster now I try and use it every other fight.</P>

[shortfa]

<DIV>Thanks for the reply claire, in caster groups i usually go for all those that you mentioned. (and yes, we still get complaints about the dove song not helping the fizzles or resists much). I do wish that we could have a buff that could increase the casters intel too, that would be pretty nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, other than our 2 proc'ing lines, there is not obvious advantage the troub has in a casting group. The power regen song is pretty generic for both the troubs and the dirges so either of us would suffice. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps it could just be the low number of pure casters in my guild that why i don't really see the great effects of the troubador caster buffs. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am hoping however that the Devs could look into this and perhaps implement more buffs that could help us help casters more, the only thing i can think of currently would be a group intel buff. hmm...</DIV><p>Message Edited by shortfang on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Andric_D]

ya do all that as well - balancing buffs per group is not a problem its the overall effectiveness of those buffs i a group situation I have doubts about. We can hold our own in a group but thats about it - and with less than adept 3's it woudl be significantly harder. I think teh recent nerf to our damage ad highlights how weak we are in other areas and that we need a proper rebalance turn and to be remebered and acknowledged when we get nerfed directly and by proxy. <div></div>

[Sanju]

The problem is that Troubs are now way too specialized. We have several buffs that only affect casters, and some that only affect melees. In order for us to be effective we have to be heavy on the casters (4+ casters in group) ... or to a much lesser extent, heavy on melees (4+ melees). Somehow Sony didn't see this coming, and didn't realize that with a Troub in a caster-heavy group, we could put out amazing dps with Aria and Precision (I think my max was ~6800dps with 4 casters in group) ... hence the nerf. Now, however, in an xp group, I'm not sure what a Troub would offer (aside from mana regen) that would be needed over virtually any other class. Our dps is the lowest of the scouts, and our melee and caster buffs are only moderately useful if you have only 1-2 casters or 1-2 melee classes (as is normal with an xp group). I doubt very much that we'd add more overall dps (or utility, even) than a "pure" dps class. We no longer fit into a "mixed" group of casters and melees, because our buffs just don't allow for it. <div></div>

[Jehannum]

<DIV>I think the problem here is really more one of perception... We don't <STRONG>need</STRONG> to be the best addition to a 5-person group.  Think of it in this light:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. You have a tank, a healer, and 3 mixed DPS.  Another tank might help, another healer would help some, another pure-dps would help some, but a bard can CC to eliminate the need for a second tank, add avoidance and regen (both health and power) to eliminate or reduce the need for a second healer, and can boost the DPS (and contribute his/her own) to an extent similar to any possible DPS class addition.  Further, if any of the existing members use mental damage, or if resists are useful, we add a broader selection than most.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. You have 3 tanks, a healer and a sorceror.  Another dps might be nice, a tank would be wasted, a healer is generally unnecessary since the tanks can ping-pong, but a bard will boost the tanks' dps (str/haste), their ability to absorb damage (sta/agi), their ability to re-use taunts (power regen), the healer's ability to heal, the sorceror's ability to dps and of course again add his/her own personal dps, weak though it may be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. You have 3 misc dps, a healer and a summoner.  A tank would be ideal, another healer nice, and with the dps already in-group while it might help it's not critical; a bard would help the pet tank, the healer heal, the dps deal damage, plus the ability to take a few hits and boost other scout-dps to the same kind of avoidance for when the pet dies/fails to taunt adequately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is that while we may not be the first choice for any given group makeup, we're top-3 for almost <STRONG>ANY</STRONG> group's 6th member, unless we're already part of the core group.  Even there, I can see some serious potential for multi-bard groups.  Imagine 4 troubs, one pally and a shaman, cycling Precision and slamming down instant-cast interrupts and quick AE for massive procs.  Yes, that does mean 10 seconds of not having Precision in a minute and a half... Tasty, no?  Alternatively, a group with a dirge, troub, rogue, sorc, tank and healer - the best of both worlds as far as melee/magic boosting.</DIV>

[WooTast]

<span>We have quick AE?? I gotta study my spellbook some more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote><hr>Jehannum wrote: <div>Imagine 4 troubs, one pally and a shaman, cycling Precision and slamming down instant-cast interrupts and quick AE for massive procs.  Yes, that does mean 10 seconds of not having Precision in a minute and a half... Tasty, no?  Alternatively, a group with a dirge, troub, rogue, sorc, tank and healer - the best of both worlds as far as melee/magic boosting.</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WooTastic wrote:<BR><SPAN>We have quick AE?? I gotta study my spellbook some more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah, there are these things called debuffs.  We have 4 lines of them and they are 1sec. cast.  We also have an instant cast interrupt.</DIV>

[Artorio]

<DIV>I would also like for SOE to make our buffs a bit more powerful.  Like maybe take away the CP usage of our self buff Daelis' Dance of Blades,  and not nerfing Aria's like they did in LU16.  If we are going to be caster oriented utilities why not change Raxxyls to buff int and agi of the group, and change the dirge line to str and sta.  The only time I'm ever in high demand in raids is if it's caster heavy or we are fighting a mob where my resists can come into play, and that's only when the healers can't buff to the resist cap.  I hear assassins whine all the time that they are broken, I think we should be looked at a little bit.  Seriously, the best thing we got in LU16 was new icons for some spells.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is that?</DIV>

[Greatscate]

There is no doubt in my mind that as a troub I have something to offer everyone inside of a single group.  Between mana regen, def buff, haste, etc. we have more than enough to offer anyone in a SINGLE XP GROUP.  However, if were put into a raid we really only have use for a few reasons: to either 1) help out a DPS group pump out even more DPS OR 2) to help a DPS group not gain too much hate over the raid mob.  Therefore, I dont believe that Troubs offer nothing RATHER we should e asking "What do troubs offer that other classes cant?"  To answer this we have to look at both single xp groups and raid groups.  In a single group theres really nothing we CANT offer anyone placed inside that group.  In this respect I do believe we have a hands up on any other class inside this game.  However, raids are a totally different story.  With 24+ prospective people ready to raid there is always someone who can offer the same exact thing we can just 20x better (ie Hate increase , stat buffs , hp increase)  Therefore as troubs our one real role inside a raid has simply become to enhance the group that sony has so perfectly dubbed a "glass cannon".  In every raid I've been in since our change with very few exceptions, it has been me (troub) a healer and 4 casting dps types.  In this particular situation, yes troubs do add an extreme amount to this group HOWEVER are there any OTHER situations in which we add a significant amount to a raid force? <b>Simply put...no!</b>  The only time Im even halfway decent inside a MT group is on a rare occassion when all of my guilds dirges are MIA.  And thats very rare since our guild has 4 of them since they seem to be sprouting up all over the place like the mold on my unwashed underwear.  (bad joke...I know)  Anyone who has read any of my previous posts may recognize what I'm about to say next...THIS IS NOT THE CLASS I SIGNED UP TO PLAY.  Raids are a bore which is extremely sad because thats why I play this game.  Theres really nothing I do inside a raid that fills me with a sense of accomplishment besides my cheap attempts at being a overpowered ranger when hitting my Master Strike ability and actually seeing damage I have done over 1000! So I guess to answer your question WooTastic, if I wanted to make a perfectly balanced 6 person group, yes a troub would be your man.  However, past that and our insane caster buffs we are nothing...woopie!  <div></div>

[AndyTheSlay]

<div></div>Does anyone aggre with me that mabey one huge buff we could get would be to take our self buff, knock it down a bit in stat boost area and have it as a group buff?  I dunno, I like Troubadors, I think this could be a good tweek to them thou <div></div><p>Message Edited by AndyTheSlayer on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 PM</span>

[Claritin]

<P>One this I noticed yesterday that REALLY ticked me off... we have the lowest DPS... and when in "defensive mode" we have the lowest tanking ability also.... this ranger I was with was tanking way better than me... I looked at his defensive "soloing" style buff and it really showed me that when SOE decided to make our defensive buff for the whole group it made it so we are the only melee that can't stand toe to toe with mobs when soloing.</P> <P>I would like to see offensive and defensive stances for bards.... SOE screwed us by leaving us out on that.... I can't give up def to do DPS and I can't give up DPS to tank... basically I am unable to adapt to my role when EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS CAN.</P>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Claritin wrote:<BR> <P>One this I noticed yesterday that REALLY ticked me off... we have the lowest DPS... and when in "defensive mode" we have the lowest tanking ability also.... this ranger I was with was tanking way better than me... I looked at his defensive "soloing" style buff and it really showed me that when SOE decided to make our defensive buff for the whole group it made it so we are the only melee that can't stand toe to toe with mobs when soloing.</P> <P>I would like to see offensive and defensive stances for bards.... SOE screwed us by leaving us out on that.... I can't give up def to do DPS and I can't give up DPS to tank... basically I am unable to adapt to my role when EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS CAN.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Did you happen to notice the loss in percentage of DPS that the Ranger suffered whilst he was tanking? I bet he wasn't doing even half of his normal damage. What percentage of our albiet already low DPS do we lose when tanking, answers on a postcard please :smileywink: </P>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Meadsong wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Claritin wrote: <p>One this I noticed yesterday that REALLY ticked me off... we have the lowest DPS... and when in "defensive mode" we have the lowest tanking ability also.... this ranger I was with was tanking way better than me... I looked at his defensive "soloing" style buff and it really showed me that when SOE decided to make our defensive buff for the whole group it made it so we are the only melee that can't stand toe to toe with mobs when soloing.</p> <p>I would like to see offensive and defensive stances for bards.... SOE screwed us by leaving us out on that.... I can't give up def to do DPS and I can't give up DPS to tank... basically I am unable to adapt to my role when EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS CAN.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Did you happen to notice the loss in percentage of DPS that the Ranger suffered whilst he was tanking? I bet he wasn't doing even half of his normal damage. What percentage of our albiet already low DPS do we lose when tanking, answers on a postcard please :smileywink: </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>we need a DPS boost anyway - a defense discipline should only lower our mellee dps down to where it is now. We are weak enough already we need boosts not weakening and we should not give up anything to be fixed. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 PM</span>

[INF]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.. but my DPS is very nice, I haven't parsed it to see what it is exactly but I have mostly (minus 2 pieces, but those have amazing stats) fabled items and mostly master 1's or adept 3 spells. I have never been kicked from a group for some other pure DPS class.. while I would've liked if SOE didn't nerf the crap out of PoM or AoE, me and a wiz are still a pretty deadly duo in groups. Albeit, before the nerf I could duo names in SC with a wizard by mezzing the name and then putting on PoM and burning the adds then the named in under 15 seconds. However, I (and a lot of casters and melee I group with) think that the troub is still an awesome class.. so please, stop just the whining and make some valid suggestions!<span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>INFKT wrote:I don't know what you guys are talking about.. but my DPS is very nice, I haven't parsed it to see what it is exactly but I have mostly (minus 2 pieces, but those have amazing stats) fabled items and mostly master 1's or adept 3 spells. I have never been kicked from a group for some other pure DPS class.. while I would've liked if SOE didn't nerf the crap out of PoM or AoE, me and a wiz are still a pretty deadly duo in groups. Albeit, before the nerf I could duo names in SC with a wizard by mezzing the name and then putting on PoM and burning the adds then the named in under 15 seconds. However, I (and a lot of casters and melee I group with) think that the troub is still an awesome class.. so please, stop just the whining and make some valid suggestions!<span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>glad you feel balanced with top line fabled and all masters. but whatever - conjuror friend of mine with no fabled or masters can solo several named in SC as well and so can the level 56 wiz on some of them. I'm sure they woudl let me help if I asked. Suggestions have been made and also reasons as to why things should change. In fact if we are ony ok with mostly fabed and all masters then we most definitly need the tweaking that most of us are suggesting.</span><div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 PM</span>

[smegsaur]

<DIV>sigh..</DIV> <DIV>same ol posts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if u want dps, learn how to play effectively, use grp HOs, get a right grp makeup, or better go roll something else if u cant parse 700+, im sure too many grp focus on pure dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if ur whinin about dps in a group/raid, you shouldnt be playing a troubador, no REAL tank or healer cares if u dps too much tank is not gonna waste rescue on a class that DPS to much, ur not gonna get healed, u will drop dead and tank and healers will be happy, mages are for dps htey do the dmg or some [Removed for Content] SK who uses harm touch off the bat or ice comet for wiz, they die aggro back to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>troubadors are utility, the glue that makes a grp/raid successful, the class is fine how it is, </DIV> <DIV>apart from reflection which needs to stay up longer (once it is triggered, concurrent power is required to maintain it for a significant period of time - that would be nice similar to illusionists)</DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> smegsaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>sigh..</DIV> <DIV>same ol posts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if u want dps, learn how to play effectively, use grp HOs, get a right grp makeup, or better go roll something else if u cant parse 700+, im sure too many grp focus on pure dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if ur whinin about dps in a group/raid, you shouldnt be playing a troubador, no REAL tank or healer cares if u dps too much tank is not gonna waste rescue on a class that DPS to much, ur not gonna get healed, u will drop dead and tank and healers will be happy, mages are for dps htey do the dmg or some [Removed for Content] SK who uses harm touch off the bat or ice comet for wiz, they die aggro back to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>troubadors are utility, the glue that makes a grp/raid successful, the class is fine how it is, </DIV> <DIV>apart from reflection which needs to stay up longer (once it is triggered, concurrent power is required to maintain it for a significant period of time - that would be nice similar to illusionists)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Funny thing about those that are "whining".  They are the people in the troub community who post here.  They are the ones that play well.  From what I can see the main beef with our DPS right now is not when we're grouped or in raids, but instead when we're solo.  When they nerfed Aria without giving us anything back they really hurt solo DPS.  The facts is, we only reach our target dps when playing Precision of the Maestro...  One spell at lvl 58 does not make a damage tier.  They've been balancing the classes, boosting and nerfing where needed.  We need to have something boosted for our personal DPS that is not unbalancing to the groups and raids we join (this is why they nerfed aria...).</DIV>

[pera]

Adding more to our self agi/int buff would probably be a good addition to this.  It would not in any way out balance a group/raid, because it is not effecting them, but instead it would only effect the troub. Maybe adding another state/effect to this song probaly would be the best course of action, because just increaseing agi or int, though it woudl be nice really wouldn't make a major differance unless the bost to int was more than 25-30% <div></div>

[INF]

I agree with that whole-heartedly! good post! We should get a buff to your self int/agi buff! Or maybe have a proc on it like the other scout sub's get! I find that I do lack solo dps but I don't think grouping is a problem at all (hence the name of the thread) so don't complain about groups because most people don't care if you have DPS, thats what necro's, wizzies, etc. are for. <div></div>

[Dingiswa]

I agree almost completely with Sanju and Jehannum's earlier posts, but I will blatantly plagiarize Wootastic: a "jack of all trades" is exactly that, a jack. The "sixth place in the group" discussion is not unlike the great "pound for pound" debates in boxing. People can spend 5 hours at the bar deciding whether a prime Ali could have outboxed a prime Tyson (he would have <span>:smileywink:</span>) but the point is, that fight ain't gonna happen, and we will never really <i>know</i>. I don't know about you guys, but ive never been interviewed by a pick-up group ingame as to what I will bring to said group that 4 other sixth-man applicants won't. In groups I dont feel that we troubs are at all useless, but like many of you, I'd like to see us given back at least one jack. Aria and Precision were apparently aces at best and jokers at worst during raids: fine. Now it is time to gives us something back. The 3 categories I've seen brought up so far are soloing/ small grps, exp groups, and raids. Without going into extreme detail, I have been blowing through solo groups of harpies in PoF using charm, basic techniques, and reasonable gear. If you ad3 one t5 spell, get aria, and for the love of God, <i>imbue your cobalt</i>! The proc rate increased after LU16, with the same insanely nice damage, 300-400 per strike. I haven't hit many heroics lately, but using charm with my Mystic friend in LS in our high forties was a blast. And bottom line, we still bring the same variety of abilities to the run-of-the mill exp group. Here is where we get to raids, and where I am going to rely on the creative types I see and enjoy getting ideas from on this board. If we get ONE thing, and ONE THING ONLY from soe, we need a fix to Requiem. I don't care about PvP. It seems like many of you don't care about PvP. As of today, a 30% chance to spam 'pwned' after I roast or freeze a trigger happy wizzy equals a 100% chance to be ineffective as a MT buffer in a raid. We in the troub community need to come up with a modification to Requiem that falls into soe's line of thought for the class. I'd love to see melee damage reflected, or just a percentage reflected back against the attacker, but it sounds like dirges beat us to that one. So how about this: when triggered, Requiem absorbs some damage, then converts a percentage of the damage taken into power for fighter types in the group. We would get 2 jacks back: our lost defensive capability, and an added power regen ability. I know for a fact guardians everywhere would be screaming for troubadors in their groups, and as a caster buff, wizards can stop mashing their power feed skill. I don't see us getting any more damage boosts. But I think even soe sees that Requiem of Reflection needs... something. Please listen to the community, guys. We need a reasonable fix and are generating some reasonable ideas. Kweli L'Overture - 53 troub 15 scholar Zumbize Amado - 33 monk 34 tailor Warlords of Lavastorm <div></div>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR>Adding more to our self agi/int buff would probably be a good addition to this.  It would not in any way out balance a group/raid, because it is not effecting them, but instead it would only effect the troub.<BR><BR>Maybe adding another state/effect to this song probaly would be the best course of action, because just increaseing agi or int, though it woudl be nice really wouldn't make a major differance unless the bost to int was more than 25-30%<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Here's my thought on what our Daelis Jig should do (with completely made-up numbers since I'm not currently in the game and don't have my own numbers handy)</P> <P>Increases the agility of group members by 35 (stacking with other buffs)</P> <P>Increases the stamina of group members by 30 (also stacking)</P> <P>*if bard</P> <P>  Increases target's agility by 85</P> <P>  Increases target's intelligence by 130</P> <P>  On a successful magical attack, this spell has a 20% chance to cast Jig on the attacker</P> <P>   * Increases target's avoidance by 20%</P> <P>   * duration: 10s<BR></P> <DIV>So basically it'd be something special in an all-bard group, something a bit nicer for soloing and a touch nicer, defensively, for the group.  Notice (those who know that Adept 3 gives about 85 agi and 130 int) that I'm not looking for a big buff to the stats, but rather to give us a little something for soloing.  While it wouldn't increase our dps very much if at all, increasing our ability to sustain a solo fight would be nice.  On a related note, here's my thought on Requiem:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Requiem of Reflection (take notes Sony, this here is good stuff!)</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 1 minute</DIV> <DIV>Recast: 2 minutes</DIV> <DIV>Whenever a hostile magical effect is successfully cast on a group member, this spell has a 10% chance to reflect that effect at 75% of its original power, while the original effect strikes at 25% of its original power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's it.  Clean, simple, not overpowering, mitigates the heck out of a big nuke if it procs, but still allows some through so it doesn't invalidate healers, tanks, etc.  - nor is it a complete trump, as it could be if not balanced properly.</DIV>

[Wereulf]

<DIV>If there is a coercer in a group, what is there left for the Troubadur to do? Coercers will exceed the troubadur in most aspects AND still</DIV> <DIV>a coercer will end up close to or slightly above the Troubadurs DPS if played correctly.</DIV> <P>And before you start going "we buff caster dps"... A balanced group Does NOT contain 4-5 casters..</P> <P>I think the idea is to group up doing fun things while the exp bar moves onto lvl 60, and this should be possible</P> <P>withouth having Fabled in almost all slots... If you Only look at the raid aspect the troubadur has a spot buffing the casters</P> <P>but thats about it.</P> <P> </P> <P>When I look at the replies in the Troubadur board I see the lvl 60's saying: Its fine  while the rest of the community says: its not fine.. I suspect that this comes from partly the fabled stuff you have as a lvl 60 raiding Troubadur and partly the fact that you got the spells that is up in the high end of the class. Its great that you got all those Master 1 spells, but Master 1 is still the top of the line. The balance needs to be without fabled gear and with Adept 1 spells.</P> <P>-Skorpan</P> <P>Inquisitor - Trolldom - Splitpaw</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV><BR></DIV>