Troubadurs? I dont get it...

[Wereulf]

<DIV>What did Troubadurs do to SoE that makes them hate you so?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When eq2 started Troubadurs were one of the top classes in many aspects, so SoE wanted them to be more balanced (read nerfed) vs other scout classes, while the dirge on the other side of the bard class needed some improvements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadurs got a few nerfs their way but were still somewhere in the middle/upper part when it came to the balance vs klasses. The Dirge got a huge upgrade in every aspect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the Troubadur lost.. about all they had that made it up for their loss of their own DPS, while Dirge stays up there in the stars. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So.. SoE  why did the Troubadur need another nerf? And IF you gave them an unbalancing spell, did you ever think to give them something else when you nerf one of the very few buffs that make some difference to a group? Mabye the Troubadur doesnt need that last nerf, but rather a few improvements??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Skorpan</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor - Trolldom - Splitpaw</DIV>

[pera]

I'm pretty happy for the most part with our class.  The only spell i have a problem with its usablity is Requiem of Relfection other than that I think we are a pretty balanced class.  We can easly make up for our lower dps with our abilty to augment a groups abilities.  And we are very flexable for various group make ups. <div></div>

[Mawie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR>I'm pretty happy for the most part with our class.  The only spell i have a problem with its usablity is Requiem of Relfection other than that I think we are a pretty balanced class.  We can easly make up for our lower dps with our abilty to augment a groups abilities.  And we are very flexable for various group make ups.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Agreed.</P> <P>There are very few spells I have a problem with. I'm still able to solo just enough that I am not annoyed with our lowish DPS, I bring alot to groups, and I am not dying too frequently. All in all, I am happy... even with LU 15 last month.</P>

[Wereulf]

<DIV>That ability was true for me until todays patch, now im pretty sure that most group (unless they are too casterfilled for their own good) would prefer a Dirge or just about any Scout or other buffer for their 6:th member...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Skorpan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sanju]

The changes to Aria and Precision suck, quite frankly. After they took away Swan Song's usefulness (our best, and some would say class-defining, ability pre-DoF), these 2 spells were the only good things we had -- they are our new class-defining abilities. As is a Sony tradition, when they think that you have something too good, they hit it with a nerf bat, and they hit HARD. I think they need to scale us up a bit more -- not back to where it was pre-LU16, but somewhere in between.  Aria was cut by about 33% -- make it about 15%, instead. Put Precision on a 30s duration, and 2 to 2 1/2 minute recast (and give me back the agro, please) and I think we'd be good. I also don't understand why they mess with abilities that were working fine, and leave broken or useless abilities alone. We are the red-headed stepchild of EQ2. <div></div>

[CarlTe]

<P>As far as grouping goes troubadors our super, but once you get to raiding you realize troubadors are lacking big time.</P> <P> </P> <P>We get a mez which is great for grouping but completely useless in raiding since all epic mobs are immune to it.</P> <P>We get power drain which is completely useless against any epic encounters since they have infinite power pool it seems.</P> <P>We get a stifle which is now useless against epic encounters.</P> <P>We get a charm which is also useless aside from "look what I can do"</P> <P>We get a reflection buff that never procs because mobs don't cast fast enough for it to do so.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now I don't want to be over powered or anything. But we have too many useless abilities when it comes to raiding.</P>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<DIV>  In many aspects I would agree with these things said. I do feel that as a bard though we are pretty well balanced between dirges in that to our respective fields we are balanced. (e.g. Dirges are superb melee class buffers and us troubs are great cating class buffers.  </DIV> <DIV>  Too bad we can't buff some intelligence or agility or any of the stats like we used to be able to. We get a wussy str/sta buff that on a raid when you are assigned to your group of mages the str/sta is worthless. Yes I will have to disclaim that the str/sta song is quite useful in a group where you have a tank and the str helps melee classes along with the haste  we still have. But really folks we just get screwed one patch after another. I would be more interested to see that we get a buff that increases chance to resist stuns/stifles and other debilitating magical effects.</DIV> <DIV>  Our charm is only good in soloing or groups but the charm may become hard to manage or start to annoy groups that move to much or want to maintain a fast pace of killing which can be slowed by the need to recharm or the fact that a spawn will be messed up since you snagged a mob from a group. The spell skills song line (songsters luck line)  is still really weak and I never notice any benefit from it. (If anyone can post some info on the luck line that would be great) And our magic proc been recently nerfed.</DIV> <DIV>  Dirges have the ability to raise the damage output of melee by a good amount and a proc that is short duration but burns mobs like hell. They get a parry and deflection song o.0 *f#$krz* </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well, feels good to whine about some strife ;p some of these things I do feel are ok but others just kinda make the troubador class a little bogus at times. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I would really really love to see a unique debuff line to both the dirge and the troubador class, thats really the one thing the bards are great for is the buff/debuff capability; and how are we going to accomplish that without having different debuffs!? We really shouldn't be complaining about these petty differences as we should be pushing SOE to give each bard class a distinct upperhand in casting/melee/healer/tank buffers and a seperate unique buff and debuff line. Of course there will be some things that may still be the same, but in the end most of us will be happier knowing that we have a clearer view of our role in the game. </DIV>

[Greatscate]

My one huge gripe with troubadors in game now is the fact that its not the class I signed up to play.  When first choosing a class in EQ2 I first knew that I wanted a class that would be an essential part to a MT group in terms of buffs.  After that I sort've just went along with the ride of me being a bard in eq1.  So as I read the desciption of Troubs vs. Dirges I was told that essentially Troubs were Buff / Defense while Dirges were Debuff / Offense...therefore I chose Troubs since it fit my playstyle a little bit more.  As it is now I can care less about our low DPS and low offensive melee buffs, but I however can NOT stand the fact that my job in a raid is simply to pump DPS out of my guilds casters.  I am currently being replaced by Dirges 5-8 levels lower than me in the MT group for numerous reasons such as their Hate song being more usefull within a raid, their melee buffs being WORLDS better than mine, and their equivelent to my Requiem of Reflection being inifintitly more useful than my version cause mobs use melee attacks a hell of a lot more than they cast.  There are plenty of reasons why I hate my class atm and I know by posting this I'll get some morons in this forum telling me toreroll if I dont like it, or stop whining, etc.. The truth of the matter however is that Troubs on my server and I hear that on almost all others are pretty much extinct.  I am currently the 4th highest Troub in terms of level on my server (Guk) and Im only 57.  There are only 7 of us 55+ and only 3 60's. I'm sorry but there has to be a reason why this is.  I can only guess but I would say it has something to do with us being severely gimped compared to our subclass counterpart. In response to those of you who say "get off the dirges back, blah blah blah" I have this to say:  I agree that dirges were severely gimped for a much longer time than troubs have been, more specifically from release to LU13, and troubs held the reigns on the bard market, therefore they needed some sort of loving.  HOWEVER to totally revamp two classes so drastically and make one purely a DPS pump and not very necessary and another an essential component to any MT group is beyond me.  I really hope that Sony takes a good look at what they have done to these two great classes in the game and decided to eventually assimilate both Troubs and Dirges into extremely similar classes since its already been shown that its too impossible for them to balance the two.  Anyways, thats just my 2 cents about this topic.  Flame away if you'd like.  I would like to say however that I do NOT speak for the entire troub population and these are solely my personal opinions.  I do know of some people who still enjoy their Troubs after LU13 and I hope that with the time passing by the entire Troubador population can eventually receive the DE-NERFAGE we deserve. <div></div>

[WooTast]

<span>Maybe you should try debuffing the raid mobs and buffing the defense of your group, or the offense of your group, depending on what type of group you're in.  If you try those things you might find a few spells worth casting.<blockquote><hr>CarlTech wrote:<p>As far as grouping goes troubadors our super, but once you get to raiding you realize troubadors are lacking big time.</p> <p>We get a mez which is great for grouping but completely useless in raiding since all epic mobs are immune to it.</p> <p>We get power drain which is completely useless against any epic encounters since they have infinite power pool it seems.</p> <p>We get a stifle which is now useless against epic encounters.</p> <p>We get a charm which is also useless aside from "look what I can do"</p> <p>We get a reflection buff that never procs because mobs don't cast fast enough for it to do so.</p> <p>Now I don't want to be over powered or anything. But we have too many useless abilities when it comes to raiding.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>we have lost to much with nothing to really beef us up. We are too weak solo, our group utiltiy is laclustre and our raid usefullness very debateable. We need a better defence buff at least for soloing but preferably for group and a tweak to our mellee damage abilities, a boost to our group abilites particularly on defence which currently sucks and for raids a total rethink. Those saying we bring damage via our buffs to a group - it really doesnt add up. Another dps scout does so much more damage than we can do even with teh buffs/damage adds its sad. With near every class bringing a group buff or two ours arnt all that. I would suggest giving bards poison but that would probably over power dirges more than balance us unless aria line affected the damage for troubs or something. Swan song - got  new description. its stil a waste of space however you try and make it sound good. Its crap. make the focus boost into a group stun resist instead and it will be used. I have adept 3 in all my abilitis to level and imo they are nearer to were the app2 version should be on damage not adept 3's. Overall as was said in DoF beta making a fundamentaly mellee class a caster support class is a bad idea and is the core problem. <div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:44 AM</span>

[Wereulf]

<DIV>I see a lot of "turning the other cheek" here..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys went from a broad aspect in groups where you fit into any role to a narrow path where you buff caster dps and nothing more..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still i see a few "the class is fine" where i expected someone to speak up instead of waiting for the next punch. You cant seriously say that this is the class you chose to play a few months / a year ago, its not even close. Finding ways to enchance a group isnt hard if you accept having one useful spell and discards the rest.</DIV> <DIV>The balance has to be there, and you have to compare vs other scout classes most of all Dirge vs Troubadur when it comes to usefullness.. Today the Troubadur isnt even close</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes to Debuffs - Theres nothing unique about the troubadur.</DIV> <DIV>Buffage? Well you can buff Caster DPS.. You can buff the resists and then what? Nothing? Avoidance is nice when youre facing lowcon mobs other than that its pretty useless..</DIV> <DIV>DPS...  compared to other scouts the Troubadur DPS is way below average.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes to mezzing.. Yep youre great when it comes to a single target mob..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Skorpan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CarlTe]

<DIV>Geez, thx for the advice. :smileyindifferent:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WooTastic wrote:<BR><SPAN>Maybe you should try debuffing the raid mobs and buffing the defense of your group, or the offense of your group, depending on what type of group you're in.  If you try those things you might find a few spells worth casting.</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Mishrac]

<P>I totaly agree with you Greatescate.</P> <P>This isnt the class i Decided to play, the Trubs should be defensive buffers and NOT just buff the DPS of Mage groups.</P> <P>now people will tell me try this and try that... well I have played this game since launch and trust me i have played alot and even tried almost everything to tweek the way im fighting, Im still good at soloing and still good in groups but the issue here is why I choosed to play the Trub.</P> <P>If the descripition had been "you will buff defense for now but later on you will almost just support caster groups" I wouldnt even considering beeing a troub... So roll back this change and make us the Def / speed buffers again. </P> <P>I dont get mad easilly but this time I had it, I´ve been checking the boards every day and now this is it. Sony Get back in the game and make us the class i chose to be. im not asking for more powers only that you make the songs back to deff buffs and speed like we where. Supporting Mages bah I wouldnt even invite a Trub for grouping im fine with the mages dps as they are.</P> <P>/Minas</P>

[Dali]

I just hit fifty today, so I might not have the full perspective, but here's what I have to say.One thing that bothers me is my nukes get resisted often (when taking on blue con or higher opponents, even WITH the mental debuff we have). IMO, a decent solution (or at least, a step in the right direction), would be to lower casting times on our nukes to half a second (or, perhaps, even Instant, like single target combat arts), lowering the re-use time accordingly, and spreading the damage so the overall DPS ratio due to nukes would be the same. Why? Because a mob resisting one mental nuke wouldn't have such a large impact on DPS (since you can chain cast them faster). Kian's should be intended for the more resistant mobs, not for every single one of them. Secondly, because our proc song could be worth what it was again. It doesn't proc on a resist anyway. Thirdly, because I wouldn't waste time casting nukes that will only land after the local sorcerer's final barrage and seeing the "Target is not alive" message.This would help for solo, because every spell that lands adds to the chance of actually winning. It wouldn't really impact groups that much, because generally, it doesn't matter if you hit with each spell.<p>Message Edited by Dalinn on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:36 PM</span>

[Keel]

My first character was a Troubadour, but I had to give up. I still believe that the Troubadour and Dirge subclasses should be merged into a single Bard subclass. I don't think there are enough skills to divy up between the two existing subclasses and make everyone happy.

[Kaelos_]

I agree that they should combine both bards.  Merge the Dirge and the Troub subclasses and what do you get?  A Dirge who can mezz and charm. They made way too many subclasses in this game.  I've given up and rerolled a ranger and moved my troub to my secondary account.  He's just a buff bot now, but I don't use him as much lately because I also have an Illusionist in that account that I duo with the ranger.  I do have another use for my 60 troub though.  I group my ranger with him so he can grey out most of the zone in sinking sands and forage in peace. <div></div>

[marill]

<P>I cant see how anyone can enjoy playing a troubadour anymore. I have retired my lvl 53 troubadour ages ago.  </P> <P>When I started a troubadour at beginning of the game I did not make one to have as only use to increase dps of another player. I made an Troubadour to be able to buff the melees, deal some decent damage and to be able to solo effectively and have fun.  And yes I made on to be able to buff in raids and feel that my class contributed to the succes. </P> <P>The description of the Troubadour class was not what it is now.They were supposed to be the good side of the bards and buff melees.  Only good buffs they ever had were  the stats buffs which stacked and the defense buffs. Without those buffs they already had little to offer. For months we had to suffer through nerf after nerf. To my surprise more nerfs have come. They even took damage away of the only usefull buff we had.  Instead of fixing the other so 'balanced' classes Sony seems to think that nerfing troubadours is the answer.  If they raid mobs are too easy make them harder instead of nerfing an already useless class. </P> <P>Soloing now? Forget it. You can solo weak blues. Your damage is laughable. Charm is a joke. You can not even sent the charmed out to attack for you. So whats the use of it? Can better mez it at least that doesnt take any concentration.</P> <P>Contribution to a team? What to we bring that others cant do the same or better? Do we increase the dps of the group? Doubt it as most teams are balanced and do not consist of only melee or casters.Our buffs are so laughable that any good scout can do more damage than we may increase. Sure powersong is nice but buy a good drink and you not far off. And our stat buffs? Buy a t6 rare potions that gives you 47 increase. Mez? I have to find the team who really uses it. By the time one mob is mezzed the rest is dead. Powerdrain? Useless by time you done buffing and draining all mobs are dead and you have done no damage. In raids mobs are not drainable.</P> <P>Our debuffs? A joke. We debuff some strenght and agility. I have never noticed any noticeable improvement when doing this. We have not even buff for our own. Our dots? A joke. Look at the descriptions of t6 poisons on other scouts which already deal an enormous damage and who can even serve as tank.Debuffing magical damage? Are we casters? We are supposed to be melees.</P> <P>I do not enjoy being useless as a toon. Its not what we were promised and its not why I grinded all those levels to be suddenly turned in an character whos solo purpose is to give power and buff the casters. You dmg is so laughable can as well go Afk. I doubt any one would notice.</P> <P>Where is this balance we were promised? Seems to be that some classes have had more balance than others. I have dumped the troubadour and raised a monk.  Monks seem to be a very positive balanced class. My troubadour is now a nice buff bot. </P> <P> </P> <P>Zzang  </P> <P>Splitpaw Server</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> marillon wrote:<BR> <P>"gripe gripe gripe, I stopped playing that class, whine, nerf, nerf, cry, can't solo whites, blah, blah blah"</P> <P>Zzang </P> <P>Splitpaw Server</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/yawn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, sounds like a monk is what you should play (autoattack + spam CAs)...  Now, back to realistic, constructive suggestions.</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Were only used in raids when someone needs our resist songs, and in a caster group. Sure with casters we can provide some good dps, but thats only when were with a good group of casters. Other than that Troubs are worthless IMO. Sure we can debuff a little, who cares? this will not make or break a raid and will not be noticed in an exp group. SOE doesnt care were last on their line to fix. Not enough people play troubs for them to give a *****</DIV>

[pera]

From my experiances, debuffs matter a LOT more than they ever did pre LU13.  Though we are not designed for it our debuffs arnt that bad.  As far as it goes we are usless outside of resists and caster heavy groups, I really have to disagree with you on this.  We have a lot of versititly, we can be very helpfull in a melee heave group as well.  Due to our power regen, resists, haste, str/sta buffs, and  hate reduction.  though at some times the dirge is better sooted for a certan group, we both can work with what ever group we are given. <div></div>

[Greatscate]

<P>First off, let me just tell anyone who says that us Troubs are just whining to play our class as it is now for an enitre week and still hold the same opinion.  Its easy to say that as your sitting pretty playing your Ranger or Fury, as it also was for me to post on other forums about whining in the past when Troubs were overpowered.  I have now seen the best and worst of this game through my Troub and can honestly say that I regret ever saying people are whiners.  With that being said don't even think, for one second, to try and use that excuse about us at the moment because theres no doubt about it....we suck in every way, shape, or form at this particular moment in the game.  </P> <P>I posted in this thread already about my opinions of the Troub atm those were merely opinions...NO I didnt sign up to play a caster pump.  But the fact of the matter is I hate that my only one true ability in this game is to be the core of what Sony so perfectly dubbed "a glass cannon group" which coincidentally  cant even be concidered that now since our Aria line was nerfed to uselessness and Precision of the Maestro, while it does help in extreme cases, is on a useless 20sec duration with a 1 1/2 min recast.  Requiem of Refelction may as well just be thrown out the window...I cant remember the last time I've ever seen that proc, and believe me I gave it a fair try by using it for a decent while (no more however...its useless).  Our debuffs make little to no affect on either a raid or solo mob, in fact, the only debuff I feel that is the only help to me is bought through my T6 str doll which slows the targets attack speed.  Our Kian's line is little to no help, sure Ill put it up, its free, but it rarely helps me out in either solo or group instances.  Dove Song is nice to have but does absolute [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for us other than boosting our non-existant solo DPS to the level of below average.  True, I didnt sign up for this class to do an amazing amount of DPS and Im fine with that but if you want this game to be balanced then give us something to compensate for this! I did not choose for this game to be balanced but if that is Sony wants they better live up to all their hype and actually balance it!  Another HUGE problem I have with my problem is our Alin's line (aggro reducer).  Dirges give a direct amount of hate to one person which is awsome because it works raid wide (i.e. this particular tank gains more hate on the mob) while ours simply reduces our groups non-fighter hate, but heres the kicker, IF MY GROUPS FIGHTER GETS HIT!!!  No, it does not work raid wide so even if we are chosen for the MT group, people in other groups throughout the raid will steal aggro almost constanly.  Being replaced by dirges 10 levels lower than me for the MT group simply is telling me that theres no point in leveling anymore.  I am constantly asking myself "what do I get post 50 that really truely helps?"  </P> <P>The way I see it is that the only way a Troub is useful in a melee group and a dirge in a caster group is through our Bria's line.  Mana regen is really the only way we as two seperate classes can help EVERYBODY in this game can benefit from, therefore I totally agree that Sony tried to do too much with a subclass that really only has a few defining attributes anyways.  I know poeple say that this is not EQ1 blah blah blah and that what you think a bard should be is not the case anymore, but the fact of the matter is, a bard is similar in play style in almost every game you can play.  I do feel that the classes should be merged although the chances of happening are about as good as me winning that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Goblin Lottery game.  Anyways, just my 2cents, flame away, agree...I dont care, its just nice to get that off my chest......again.</P>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greatscate wrote:<BR> <P>First off, let me just tell anyone who says that us Troubs are just whining to play our class as it is now for an enitre week and still hold the same opinion.  Its easy to say that as your sitting pretty playing your Ranger or Fury, as it also was for me to post on other forums about whining in the past when Troubs were overpowered.  I have now seen the best and worst of this game through my Troub and can honestly say that I regret ever saying people are whiners.  With that being said don't even think, for one second, to try and use that excuse about us at the moment because theres no doubt about it....we suck in every way, shape, or form at this particular moment in the game. </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>As a troubadour who's been playing the game as a troub <STRONG>since release</STRONG> and has played a troub in "our current state" I'll say it.  You're wrong.  People who can't figure out how to play a troub, or who have trouble convincing others of their value, are whining <STRONG>for the most part</STRONG>.  Yes we have some legitimate gripes (Requiem, personal visible effectiveness and a few others) but for the most part we're really not all that broken.  We most certainly don't suck.</FONT></P> <P>I posted in this thread already about my opinions of the Troub atm those were merely opinions...NO I didnt sign up to play a caster pump.  But the fact of the matter is I hate that my only one true ability in this game is to be the core of what Sony so perfectly dubbed "a glass cannon group" which coincidentally  cant even be concidered that now since our Aria line was nerfed to uselessness and Precision of the Maestro, while it does help in extreme cases, is on a useless 20sec duration with a 1 1/2 min recast.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Are you on meds?  First off, Sony didn't develop the term "glass cannon" - in fact, a few <STRONG>real</STRONG> glass cannon exist (though I'd expect them to be somewhat underpowered).  Second, a 30% reduction in a spell affording a 500-point proc roughly every 2-3 seconds (with 4 mages) isn't nerfing to uselessness, it's necessary balance.  No one ability should add 200-300 dps on its own, and that's what it did.  Now it's 150-225ish dps, and that's more moderate.  Precision would have been useless at 12 seconds but at almost double that (plenty long enough to burn almost any heroic and enough to take a good bite out of an Epic) it's far from.  I'll grant that I'd prefer it still assigned hate to me.</FONT></P> <P> Requiem of Refelction may as well just be thrown out the window...I cant remember the last time I've ever seen that proc, and believe me I gave it a fair try by using it for a decent while (no more however...its useless).  Our debuffs make little to no affect on either a raid or solo mob, in fact, the only debuff I feel that is the only help to me is bought through my T6 str doll which slows the targets attack speed.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Taking off 117 points of agil and strength does nothing for your encounters?  Dang, it's seemed to work pretty nicely for me... increases the dps of every melee class in the group - but then, you're pushing the angle that we're useless to melee so it's hardly a surprise you'd have ignored that.</FONT></P> <P> Our Kian's line is little to no help, sure Ill put it up, its free, but it rarely helps me out in either solo or group instances.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Increases the damage of <STRONG>every other mental damage effect we use</STRONG> plus every effect any other caster uses... rarely helps, for sure.  May also increase the stick rate but that's not gospel so far as I know.</FONT></P> <P> Dove Song is nice to have but does absolute [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for us other than boosting our non-existant solo DPS to the level of below average. </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Dove song's (and its line) main use is not to increase our dps.  It's to increase the odds of lower-leveled group members successfully casting in an encounter with orange mobs.  Yes it works, but if this is typical of your misunderstanding of our songs' purposes, it's hardly a surprise that you're so disappointed.</FONT></P> <P>True, I didnt sign up for this class to do an amazing amount of DPS and Im fine with that but if you want this game to be balanced then give us something to compensate for this! I did not choose for this game to be balanced but if that is Sony wants they better live up to all their hype and actually balance it!  Another HUGE problem I have with my problem is our Alin's line (aggro reducer).  Dirges give a direct amount of hate to one person which is awsome because it works raid wide (i.e. this particular tank gains more hate on the mob) while ours simply reduces our groups non-fighter hate, but heres the kicker, IF MY GROUPS FIGHTER GETS HIT!!!  No, it does not work raid wide so even if we are chosen for the MT group, people in other groups throughout the raid will steal aggro almost constanly.  Being replaced by dirges 10 levels lower than me for the MT group simply is telling me that theres no point in leveling anymore.  I am constantly asking myself "what do I get post 50 that really truely helps?" </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Again you misunderstand the best use of the spell.  Our aggro reducer isn't for a MT group, it's for an exp group and for damage/healing groups in a raid.  Reduce the aggro generated by a nuker and he can nuke more, reduce a healer's aggro and they can spam without worrying about picking up too much aggro, even with reactives on the pull.</FONT></P> <P>The way I see it is that the only way a Troub is useful in a melee group and a dirge in a caster group is through our Bria's line.  Mana regen is really the only way we as two seperate classes can help EVERYBODY in this game can benefit from, therefore I totally agree that Sony tried to do too much with a subclass that really only has a few defining attributes anyways.  I know poeple say that this is not EQ1 blah blah blah and that what you think a bard should be is not the case anymore, but the fact of the matter is, a bard is similar in play style in almost every game you can play.  I do feel that the classes should be merged although the chances of happening are about as good as me winning that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Goblin Lottery game.  Anyways, just my 2cents, flame away, agree...I dont care, its just nice to get that off my chest......again.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hate to say this to someone who's obviously as passionate about troub concerns as you seem to be, but don't badmouth our abilities unless you understand how to use them to best effect, k?  There are lots of us happy about most of our class' capabilities who are well able to boost either kind of group at will, and while Requiem is garbage, most of us are generally reasonably contented with our ability.</DIV>

[Greatscate]

<P>Again Jehannum I was stating my personal opinions.  This is how I feel and you cant honestly sit there and tell me you signed up or enjoy being a caster buffer.  I choose a troub to buff everyone EFFECTIVELY and not just half the classes in the game.  Don't sit there and tell me I dont know how to play my class because it makes you feel better about yourself.  If you like your class fine, keep up the good work but everything I posted I have a right to post as they are my opinions.  Maybe I worded a few things wrong however...we are in no way "useless", that is if you like to sit back in raids and buff the casters in your group and make sure they dont die.  If that fills you some sort of accomplishment I commend you for a job well done.  HOORAY!  </P> <P>Oh, and thank you for the nice history lesson on the Glass Cannon.  Ill have to remember that one for the future when Im playing trivia pursuit with the kids.</P>

[Andric_D]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jehannum wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Greatscate wrote: <div></div> <p>First off, let me just tell anyone who says that us Troubs are just whining to play our class as it is now for an enitre week and still hold the same opinion.  Its easy to say that as your sitting pretty playing your Ranger or Fury, as it also was for me to post on other forums about whining in the past when Troubs were overpowered.  I have now seen the best and worst of this game through my Troub and can honestly say that I regret ever saying people are whiners.  With that being said don't even think, for one second, to try and use that excuse about us at the moment because theres no doubt about it....we suck in every way, shape, or form at this particular moment in the game. </p> <p><font color="#66ff00">As a troubadour who's been playing the game as a troub <strong>since release</strong> and has played a troub in "our current state" I'll say it.  You're wrong.  People who can't figure out how to play a troub, or who have trouble convincing others of their value, are whining <strong>for the most part</strong>.  Yes we have some legitimate gripes (Requiem, personal visible effectiveness and a few others) but for the most part we're really not all that broken.  We most certainly don't suck. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff9999">ok I and others whom have played since beta have gripes. We still play so ya things aint great but tey are not yet desperate.</font> </font></p> <p>I posted in this thread already about my opinions of the Troub atm those were merely opinions...NO I didnt sign up to play a caster pump.  But the fact of the matter is I hate that my only one true ability in this game is to be the core of what Sony so perfectly dubbed "a glass cannon group" which coincidentally  cant even be concidered that now since our Aria line was nerfed to uselessness and Precision of the Maestro, while it does help in extreme cases, is on a useless 20sec duration with a 1 1/2 min recast.</p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Are you on meds?  First off, Sony didn't develop the term "glass cannon" - in fact, a few <strong>real</strong> glass cannon exist (though I'd expect them to be somewhat underpowered).  Second, a 30% reduction in a spell affording a 500-point proc roughly every 2-3 seconds (with 4 mages) isn't nerfing to uselessness, it's necessary balance.  No one ability should add 200-300 dps on its own, and that's what it did.  Now it's 150-225ish dps, and that's more moderate.  Precision would have been useless at 12 seconds but at almost double that (plenty long enough to burn almost any heroic and enough to take a good bite out of an Epic) it's far from.  I'll grant that I'd prefer it still assigned hate to me.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff9999">problem here is that in beta of he combat changes the obviousy overpowered ability was used to balance us. It was warned against and ignored. now its been nerfed it dubious level of balance is negated and now our lacking in other area is more aparant.</font> </p> <p> Requiem of Refelction may as well just be thrown out the window...I cant remember the last time I've ever seen that proc, and believe me I gave it a fair try by using it for a decent while (no more however...its useless).  Our debuffs make little to no affect on either a raid or solo mob, in fact, the only debuff I feel that is the only help to me is bought through my T6 str doll which slows the targets attack speed.</p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Taking off 117 points of agil and strength does nothing for your encounters?  Dang, it's seemed to work pretty nicely for me... increases the dps of every melee class in the group - but then, you're pushing the angle that we're useless to melee so it's hardly a surprise you'd have ignored that. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff9999">most mellee can reach soft cap on stas without our help. run some parses.</font> </font></p> <p> Our Kian's line is little to no help, sure Ill put it up, its free, but it rarely helps me out in either solo or group instances.</p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Increases the damage of <strong>every other mental damage effect we use</strong> plus every effect any other caster uses... rarely helps, for sure.  May also increase the stick rate but that's not gospel so far as I know. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff9999">why does everyone ignore the wis debuff on this? its damage is good and i love it but the wis debuf reduces every resist and its one of our best debufs/group damae abilities.</font> </font></p> <p> Dove Song is nice to have but does absolute [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for us other than boosting our non-existant solo DPS to the level of below average. </p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Dove song's (and its line) main use is not to increase our dps.  It's to increase the odds of lower-leveled group members successfully casting in an encounter with orange mobs.  Yes it works, but if this is typical of your misunderstanding of our songs' purposes, it's hardly a surprise that you're so disappointed. <font color="#ff9999"> it doesnt work. I have tested and fedback and bugged and tested and measured.it does sweet fanny adams. </font></font></p> <p>True, I didnt sign up for this class to do an amazing amount of DPS and Im fine with that but if you want this game to be balanced then give us something to compensate for this! I did not choose for this game to be balanced but if that is Sony wants they better live up to all their hype and actually balance it!  Another HUGE problem I have with my problem is our Alin's line (aggro reducer).  Dirges give a direct amount of hate to one person which is awsome because it works raid wide (i.e. this particular tank gains more hate on the mob) while ours simply reduces our groups non-fighter hate, but heres the kicker, IF MY GROUPS FIGHTER GETS HIT!!!  No, it does not work raid wide so even if we are chosen for the MT group, people in other groups throughout the raid will steal aggro almost constanly.  Being replaced by dirges 10 levels lower than me for the MT group simply is telling me that theres no point in leveling anymore.  I am constantly asking myself "what do I get post 50 that really truely helps?" </p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Again you misunderstand the best use of the spell.  Our aggro reducer isn't for a MT group, it's for an exp group and for damage/healing groups in a raid.  Reduce the aggro generated by a nuker and he can nuke more, reduce a healer's aggro and they can spam without worrying about picking up too much aggro, even with reactives on the pull. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff9999">yup - this is imo now our best feture.</font> </font></p> <p>The way I see it is that the only way a Troub is useful in a melee group and a dirge in a caster group is through our Bria's line.  Mana regen is really the only way we as two seperate classes can help EVERYBODY in this game can benefit from, therefore I totally agree that Sony tried to do too much with a subclass that really only has a few defining attributes anyways.  I know poeple say that this is not EQ1 blah blah blah and that what you think a bard should be is not the case anymore, but the fact of the matter is, a bard is similar in play style in almost every game you can play.  I do feel that the classes should be merged although the chances of happening are about as good as me winning that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Goblin Lottery game.  Anyways, just my 2cents, flame away, agree...I dont care, its just nice to get that off my chest......again.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I hate to say this to someone who's obviously as passionate about troub concerns as you seem to be, but don't badmouth our abilities unless you understand how to use them to best effect, k?  There are lots of us happy about most of our class' capabilities who are well able to boost either kind of group at will, and while Requiem is garbage, most of us are generally reasonably contented with our ability.</div> <font color="#ff9999">While I am relativly happy with the class bar a few obvious and needed fixs i am not hapy with the direction we are heading - I can live with it now but if in future expasions and level bumps things follow the same extreme caster buffer path imo it would be  a nightmare. I certainly want to register that I and others are not content with the direction of the class and that bards in general need a rethink on direction and not to be left again as an also ran class.</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andric_D wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jehannum wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Greatscate wrote:</P> <P>(snipped for at least a teeny bit of brevity)<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00> a 30% reduction in a spell affording a 500-point proc roughly every 2-3 seconds (with 4 mages) isn't nerfing to uselessness, it's necessary balance.  No one ability should add 200-300 dps on its own, and that's what it did.  Now it's 150-225ish dps, and that's more moderate.  Precision would have been useless at 12 seconds but at almost double that (plenty long enough to burn almost any heroic and enough to take a good bite out of an Epic) it's far from.  I'll grant that I'd prefer it still assigned hate to me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9999>problem here is that in beta of he combat changes the obviousy overpowered ability was used to balance us. It was warned against and ignored. now its been nerfed it dubious level of balance is negated and now our lacking in other area is more aparant.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Fully granted; the unintended effect of nerfing the damage to balance a caster wolfpack did bad things to our personal dps... I'd be happy if they cranked it up to a 50% proc rate "if bard" as compensation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></P> <P> Requiem of Refelction may as well just be thrown out the window...I cant remember the last time I've ever seen that proc, and believe me I gave it a fair try by using it for a decent while (no more however...its useless).  Our debuffs make little to no affect on either a raid or solo mob, in fact, the only debuff I feel that is the only help to me is bought through my T6 str doll which slows the targets attack speed.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Taking off 117 points of agil and strength does nothing for your encounters?  Dang, it's seemed to work pretty nicely for me... increases the dps of every melee class in the group - but then, you're pushing the angle that we're useless to melee so it's hardly a surprise you'd have ignored that.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff9999>most mellee can reach soft cap on stas without our help. run some parses.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#66cc00>Erm, you appear to have missed the point - I was talking about debuffing the mob with Descante, which drops its str/agi by 117 and greatly increases the rate at which people hit, as well as reducing damage done by the mob.  I've seen large effects from this, in the right situations.  Coupled with another strength debuff it's amazing how little damage a ^^^ can lay out.  With the right debuffs, I've seen healers commenting on how much they like the Aria proc because they barely need to heal anymore.  Ditto Demoralising Processional.  A caster only benefits from these debuffs if they screw up and pull aggro; a tank, whether in my group or another in the raid, will invariably benefit.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P> Our Kian's line is little to no help, sure Ill put it up, its free, but it rarely helps me out in either solo or group instances.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Increases the damage of <STRONG>every other mental damage effect we use</STRONG> plus every effect any other caster uses... rarely helps, for sure.  May also increase the stick rate but that's not gospel so far as I know.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff9999>why does everyone ignore the wis debuff on this? its damage is good and i love it but the wis debuf reduces every resist and its one of our best debufs/group damae abilities.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#66cc00>I agree wholeheartedly; the one thing I was concerned about, in the combat revamp, was that I might lose the debuff aspect I'd picked up as a training option.  I'm glad the dot retained that (to whatever limited extent) because debuffing 40+ points of wisdom does increase magic-based damage effects substantially.  Of course, I'd still rather have another 1k mental debuff on it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P> Dove Song is nice to have but does absolute [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for us other than boosting our non-existant solo DPS to the level of below average. </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Dove song's (and its line) main use is not to increase our dps.  It's to increase the odds of lower-leveled group members successfully casting in an encounter with orange mobs.  Yes it works, but if this is typical of your misunderstanding of our songs' purposes, it's hardly a surprise that you're so disappointed.<BR><FONT color=#ff9999><BR>it doesnt work. I have tested and fedback and bugged and tested and measured.it does sweet fanny adams.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff9999><FONT color=#66cc00>Hmm.  The parses I did in Poet's Palace may have been a fluke then; took my under-leveled warlock buddy in a couple times at 57 and my parses revealed about a 10-15% (sorry, precise numbers not handy at present)  increase in dps against Aysor, the keeper and the 3 creations - it only amounted to about 2-5% improvement against the bugs though, so perhaps its effectiveness only shows up at the yellow/orange cusp?</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></P> <P>True, I didnt sign up for this class to do an amazing amount of DPS and Im fine with that but if you want this game to be balanced then give us something to compensate for this! I did not choose for this game to be balanced but if that is Sony wants they better live up to all their hype and actually balance it!  Another HUGE problem I have with my problem is our Alin's line (aggro reducer).  Dirges give a direct amount of hate to one person which is awsome because it works raid wide (i.e. this particular tank gains more hate on the mob) while ours simply reduces our groups non-fighter hate, but heres the kicker, IF MY GROUPS FIGHTER GETS HIT!!!  No, it does not work raid wide so even if we are chosen for the MT group, people in other groups throughout the raid will steal aggro almost constanly.  Being replaced by dirges 10 levels lower than me for the MT group simply is telling me that theres no point in leveling anymore.  I am constantly asking myself "what do I get post 50 that really truely helps?" </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Again you misunderstand the best use of the spell.  Our aggro reducer isn't for a MT group, it's for an exp group and for damage/healing groups in a raid.  Reduce the aggro generated by a nuker and he can nuke more, reduce a healer's aggro and they can spam without worrying about picking up too much aggro, even with reactives on the pull.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff9999>yup - this is imo now our best feture.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>The way I see it is that the only way a Troub is useful in a melee group and a dirge in a caster group is through our Bria's line.  Mana regen is really the only way we as two seperate classes can help EVERYBODY in this game can benefit from, therefore I totally agree that Sony tried to do too much with a subclass that really only has a few defining attributes anyways.  I know poeple say that this is not EQ1 blah blah blah and that what you think a bard should be is not the case anymore, but the fact of the matter is, a bard is similar in play style in almost every game you can play.  I do feel that the classes should be merged although the chances of happening are about as good as me winning that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Goblin Lottery game.  Anyways, just my 2cents, flame away, agree...I dont care, its just nice to get that off my chest......again.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hate to say this to someone who's obviously as passionate about troub concerns as you seem to be, but don't badmouth our abilities unless you understand how to use them to best effect, k?  There are lots of us happy about most of our class' capabilities who are well able to boost either kind of group at will, and while Requiem is garbage, most of us are generally reasonably contented with our ability.</DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff9999>While I am relativly happy with the class bar a few obvious and needed fixs i am not hapy with the direction we are heading - I can live with it now but if in future expasions and level bumps things follow the same extreme caster buffer path imo it would be  a nightmare. I certainly want to register that I and others are not content with the direction of the class and that bards in general need a rethink on direction and not to be left again as an also ran class.</FONT><BR> <HR> </SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can agree with this to the extent that I also didn't sign on to be a caster buffer but a general buffer; I'd like to see us maintain the kind of generalist ability we have, and I can see the concern that Sony might decide that something silly like differentiating caster-buffs from melee buffs is an appropriate way to distinguish us from dirges, but I don't think that overstating the case as (sorry, but it's true) Greatscate did is the answer.  In each of Greatscate's comments there's at least a little truth, but ultimately the question needs to be asked - if we're not willing to give Sony a <STRONG>reasonable, valid</STRONG> explanation of what our skills do and do not accomplish (and our vision of what they <EM>should</EM> accomplish) why should we expect them to extend us any similar courtesy, or entertain our notions?</P> <P>And, Great, don't get so defensive... Granted I may have been a bit uppity with the meds comment, but if I [Removed for Content] you off that much just take a deep breath <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't take me that seriously, so why should you?<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chefren]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wereulf wrote: <div>Now the Troubadur lost.. about all they had that made it up for their loss of their own DPS, while Dirge stays up there in the stars. </div><hr></blockquote>"Up there in the stars"? We dirges are mid-tier dps just as were supposed to be. Actually below average tier in raids to conserve power for debuffing. I do agree that troubs should not have lower dps than us, but since I dont play a troub I dont know about that.</span><div></div>

[Cragger]

<DIV>As I view the situation the problem is a holdover from how things use to be. It use to be Dirges buffed offense and debuffed and had much higher dps. Troubadours buffed defense very well so it made sense to have lower dps. Now Dirges buff melee and troubadours buff casting mostly so their dps should be made the same. There is no reason why troubadour attacks should have the high mark of their damage range be the low mark of a dirge's abilities. Both bards should be able to deal out the same damage they just have different utility and bring different things to a group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I'm not happy my troubadour was fundamentaly changed away from why I picked it and I would reroll as a Dirge in a heartbeat if I could and we are dying off on servers. But the absolute biggest problem currently is there is no reason why a troubadour's attacks should be so much lower then a Dirge's anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you parse a troubadour in a group you'll see their usually dps lower then any fighter in the group, unless there are a few casters and they have Aria's up which is really false dps and its a group proc and nothing the troubadour is doing directly, its a scout class for crying out loud not a priest.</DIV>

[Bi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Greatscate wrote:My one huge gripe with troubadors in game now is the fact that its not the class I signed up to play.  When first choosing a class in EQ2 I first knew that I wanted a class that would be an essential part to a MT group in terms of buffs.  After that I sort've just went along with the ride of me being a bard in eq1.  So as I read the desciption of Troubs vs. Dirges I was told that essentially Troubs were Buff / Defense while Dirges were Debuff / Offense...therefore I chose Troubs since it fit my playstyle a little bit more.  As it is now I can care less about our low DPS and low offensive melee buffs, but I however can NOT stand the fact that my job in a raid is simply to pump DPS out of my guilds casters.  I am currently being replaced by Dirges 5-8 levels lower than me in the MT group for numerous reasons such as their Hate song being more usefull within a raid, their melee buffs being WORLDS better than mine, and their equivelent to my Requiem of Reflection being inifintitly more useful than my version cause mobs use melee attacks a hell of a lot more than they cast.  There are plenty of reasons why I hate my class atm and I know by posting this I'll get some morons in this forum telling me toreroll if I dont like it, or stop whining, etc.. The truth of the matter however is that Troubs on my server and I hear that on almost all others are pretty much extinct.  I am currently the 4th highest Troub in terms of level on my server (Guk) and Im only 57.  There are only 7 of us 55+ and only 3 60's. I'm sorry but there has to be a reason why this is.  I can only guess but I would say it has something to do with us being severely gimped compared to our subclass counterpart. In response to those of you who say "get off the dirges back, blah blah blah" I have this to say:  I agree that dirges were severely gimped for a much longer time than troubs have been, more specifically from release to LU13, and troubs held the reigns on the bard market, therefore they needed some sort of loving.  HOWEVER to totally revamp two classes so drastically and make one purely a DPS pump and not very necessary and another an essential component to any MT group is beyond me.  I really hope that Sony takes a good look at what they have done to these two great classes in the game and decided to eventually assimilate both Troubs and Dirges into extremely similar classes since its already been shown that its too impossible for them to balance the two.  Anyways, thats just my 2 cents about this topic.  Flame away if you'd like.  I would like to say however that I do NOT speak for the entire troub population and these are solely my personal opinions.  I do know of some people who still enjoy their Troubs after LU13 and I hope that with the time passing by the entire Troubador population can eventually receive the DE-NERFAGE we deserve. <hr></blockquote>Couldnt agree more. At the moment, although I understand that we do have *a* part to play in a group - I can't bring myself to log my 50troub in over my 47 wiz or 43 monk. In fact, since dof our 2 50th guild troubs have stopped playing (me and another) and we have jumped from having 1 lvl 2x dirge alt, to 3 40+ dirges (the highest is 57)  the lower troub alts dont play so much anymore either. I just dont see what I can bring to a group that my other 2 alts cant, in most, if not all situations. Besides this: I dont see what we (as players) can bring to a raid. I may as well just be there to zone my char in and re-set AF on a groupmate.. It's not really worth levelling just for the ancient skills. I rolled a troub because there wasnt one in the guild, and I realised that we needed a bard in the MT group, seeing as I am now barely needed in the MT group (maybe the exception is very high ele/arcane mobs? but I doubt it) and usually only then when there are no dirges :/ I'm pleased that many troubs are happy with their new roles as caster buffers, but it's not what I signed up to do, and I have no real intention of playing my troub again (I might keep it just in case troubs are ever fixed) Like I said to my guildy when he asked me why I'm no longer playing my tru</span><span>o</span><span>b - I bring nothing to a raid except my buffs - there is no inherent player skill to play a troub [maybe HO switching- really point-filled in a mage/healer grp on a raid tho] Rigorr- 50th Troubadour, Runnyeye</span><div></div>