The 'Balance' to the troub ?!?

[pera]

<div></div><p>I'm still curious how nerfing Maestro's is a balance to the troub class to be more in line with the dirge's spell,(cant remember the name)  for a song that grants extra dmg for auto attack dmg the dirge's is excellent and very useful, and so was our.  Both were equal in their own aspects.  I honestly did not see one post talking about how Maestro's was overpowered compared to the dirges.  If i missed on please tell me I would be happy to read it.But the major flaw with the thinking the Troubs Maestro should be reduced in timer is, Auto attack can be affected by haste, NO spells or abilities are effected by any haste’s.  Unless the dmg that Maestro's is increases by at least 4 times its pointless to have, except for the troub to fire of a quick few extra shots.  With 12 sec duration it is pointless to have as a group buff.   There is no way you could coordinate the people in your group to use their hostile abilities well enough together to make this useful. I do have to admit the duration of one minute on this ability could be seen as a bit much well why not just make it 30-45 seconds, or just leave it at 1 min and reduce its dmg to 300 or so.  Also I do have to admit the change to this ability that grants they hate generated by the procs to the caster that caused it was a good idea, it was not a problem before, but it helps, but in no way would I use this spell in a group or raiding with 12 second duration.  the amount of dmg I can do auto attacking with other group buffs and concentrating on them majorly out ways using this for the 12 seconds it roots and prevents me from auto attacking.  12 seconds is just way to short of a duration for a group to react to, unless we are a bunch of tweeks.</p>

[Sanju]

I don't like the spreading of the hate gain to other group members, personally. It's not needed and will most likely just end up with more dead casters. The casters in a Troub's group are already doing far more dps than I am -- spreading the hate gain to them will just make them more likely to pull agro (and die). With all of the hate gain on me, I've only pulled agro on a raid once. It's all about timing, and using your agro reducers. 12s is much too short a duration for a buff that relies on spells to be cast, however. <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>I agree if changing duration and recast to be "inline" with dirge Cacauphony of Blades means "equal", then we're screwed majorly as it takes WAY longer to cast spells with LONG recasts than it does to auto-attack or use melee CAs...  The hate distribution is nice though as it'll allow Crusader types to take advantage of some of PotM's procs for increased hate generation.</P> <P><STRONG>Can one of our helpful troub testers confirm the duration and recast on this?</STRONG>  </P> <P>Another thing to note is this:  Our spells have incredibly inaccurate casting times.  I don't know if we're the only class that has 2s casting times that are more like 3-3.5, but this is one of the major reasons that Eli's Thundering Chorus doesn't get used more...  For the amount of damage and the severe range penalty, this song needs a 1 sec cast.</P> <P>I like the reduction in the debuff casting times though.  When fighting an epic (at lower than appropriate levels) the casts are painful with the amount of resists there are.</P>

[Lockeye]

<DIV>In terms of DPS over time up until you can reuse the spell, not much really changed. Precision is also 3x as damaging as the Dirge per proc, but overall they do the same amount of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are several problems though with a very long reuse timer and duration.</DIV> <DIV>1) These kind of abilities aren't often used when pulling group encounters in succession. After using it once, you don't have access to it again for another 4-5 pulls.</DIV> <DIV>2) It packs all of its damage utility upfront for a long duration. With the right setup, a glass canon mage group in a raid with a troubador can kill a raid mob before Precision even expires. It's meant to work really well with casters, but from experience in game, its full minute duration DPS smoked raid content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One problem pointed out is coordinating casting of spells in a group in a small window of duration is difficult. I'm going to look into making one more adjustment to the spell to give it a slightly longer duration and recast, but keep the same overall DPS ratio. That way, there's a balance between using it in normal groups and raid situations without being overpowered upfront because of duration.</DIV>

[Sanju]

Thanks for the response, Lockeye. <span> <blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote: 1) These kind of abilities aren't often used when pulling group encounters in succession. After using it once, you don't have access to it again for another 4-5 pulls.<hr></blockquote></span>I disagree with this part, though. I often used this spell when pulling group encounters in succession, although where you were fighting did play a large part. The Ancient's Table area, giants area in PoF, the bottom level of Living Tombs, and a few spots in Silent City were all great spots to use Precision of the Maestro in a single group. Any area that has several group encounters in a fairly short space. <span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote: <div>2) It packs all of its damage utility upfront for a long duration. With the right setup, a glass canon mage group in a raid with a troubador can kill a raid mob before Precision even expires. It's meant to work really well with casters, but from experience in game, its full minute duration DPS smoked raid content. I'm going to look into making one more adjustment to the spell to give it a slightly longer duration and recast, but keep the same overall DPS ratio. </div><hr></blockquote>On T5 raid content (with a T6 raid force) I've found this to be true, but not as much for T6 raid mobs. I generally put it up at around 50% of the mob's health, to make sure that the tank has enough agro, and depending on the mob, Precision will just be ending when the mob drops. I would like to see the duration of Precision at 30 seconds. This would still make it a great finisher for raid mobs, and make it very viable for normal groups as well.</span> <div></div>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>In terms of DPS over time up until you can reuse the spell, not much really changed. Precision is also 3x as damaging as the Dirge per proc, but overall they do the same amount of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are several problems though with a very long reuse timer and duration.</DIV> <DIV>1) These kind of abilities aren't often used when pulling group encounters in succession. After using it once, you don't have access to it again for another 4-5 pulls.</DIV> <DIV>2) It packs all of its damage utility upfront for a long duration. With the right setup, a glass canon mage group in a raid with a troubador can kill a raid mob before Precision even expires. It's meant to work really well with casters, but from experience in game, its full minute duration DPS smoked raid content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One problem pointed out is coordinating casting of spells in a group in a small window of duration is difficult. I'm going to look into making one more adjustment to the spell to give it a slightly longer duration and recast, but keep the same overall DPS ratio. That way, there's a balance between using it in normal groups and raid situations without being overpowered upfront because of duration.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>First off, thanks for the reply - as a provisioner I'm intimately aware of how badly it sucks to (apparently) be soundly ignored by devs without even so much as a "we're busy but will look into it when we're able."<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, point #1 is loony.  Sorry, but it is, really.  What sort of tactical choice would we be forced to make if we could use the ability every combat?  While I can see what you mean about the 1-minute duration (it'd be easy to burn down Aysor and his eye both with one casting, as it was to take the two final waves of scarabs plus both snakes in Poet's Palace) 12 seconds is far too short a window to effectively coordinate with even one or two others, let alone the group, given lag issues as Perano's pointed out.</DIV> <DIV>Point #2 is certainly valid insofar as it's possible - but honestly, I'd think that's more a reason to not only leave the aggro on the bard where it really should belong, but potentially to make the aggro from Precision "immune" to reduction by Calming or other % reductions.  Sure you <STRONG>could</STRONG> fire such a song up early in a raid, but odds are you're going to see a dead troub and a bunch of underpowered casters if some care isn't taken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I've said in another thread, I'd be happy with a 30-second duration and a 2 minute recast, since that'd preserve almost as good a real-world ratio while maintaining the "on-paper" ratio.  Real-world incorporates a few seconds' loss <STRONG>regardless of duration</STRONG> - against 1 minute it's fairly trivial, against 30 seconds it's 10-15% lost opportunity, but in 12 seconds it becomes pretty harsh and on laggy raids will account for well over half the duration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree it needed tuning*, but this is a bit harsh.  Thanks for at least being willing to give it another balance pass.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*When I first cast it, the wizard said "WHOA [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] WAS THAT?!?!?!?!?!" - after the ^^ scarabs and ^/^^^ snakes got demolished in 39 seconds combined. (including the few second pause between encounters)</DIV>

[pera]

Thank you very much for the responce,   and I do not think many of us, (or at least I) would have a problem if the DD amount was reduced when it fired in replace for it having a longer duration on the buff, maybe 30 secondson or so..  This would give the group a chance to react and use its ability to the fullest. while we are on the topic of rebalancing if you get a chance would you mind taking a look at Requiem of Reflection, though it is a great idea, its useablity is quite a bit short from warrenting useing a concentration slot for it. <div></div>

[CarlTe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One problem pointed out is coordinating casting of spells in a group in a small window of duration is difficult. <STRONG>I'm going to look into making one more adjustment to the spell to give it a slightly longer duration and recast, but keep the same overall DPS ratio.</STRONG> That way, there's a balance between using it in normal groups and raid situations without being overpowered upfront because of duration.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't mind troub proc buff being brought into line with the dirge equivalent. <STRONG>But please look into Requiem of the Reflection!!! I never ever ever use this spell in a raid whereas the Dirge equivalent is a must for raids.</STRONG><BR>

[Named]

<DIV>We've used the reflection song a couple times in raids, but its not reliable enough to use it practically. More just like, "oh i reflected that, cool."</DIV>

[Boombastix]

Wow, the game designers do take notice!  That single response has increased my satisfaction level with EQ2 more than anything else so far.  But now that I know that the devs are aware of our legitimate concerns I would be horribly disapointed if they are ignored.  Please keep in mind the cast times of various spells when determining the duration length of this song.  I think a 30 second duration and maybe a minute recast would be a excellent compromise.  12 seconds of melee attack procs make sense for the dirge song and dirges are happy with that but to apply that duration to a song that relys on casting times is silly.   This song has got me many an invite to a group; don't leave me sitting alone in the desert with a LFG tag over my head.  And possibly crying... <div></div>

[Dra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Boombastix wrote:Wow, the game designers do take notice!  That single response has increased my satisfaction level with EQ2 more than anything else so far.  But now that I know that the devs are aware of our legitimate concerns I would be horribly disapointed if they are ignored.  Please keep in mind the cast times of various spells when determining the duration length of this song.  I think a 30 second duration and maybe a minute recast would be a excellent compromise.  12 seconds of melee attack procs make sense for the dirge song and dirges are happy with that but to apply that duration to a song that relys on casting times is silly.   This song has got me many an invite to a group; don't leave me sitting alone in the desert with a LFG tag over my head.  And possibly crying... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Lol Boombastix, 1 min reuse 30 second duration would be better than what it is on live!  *bonks* --Dratn</span><div></div>

[Boombastix]

Well I'm starting the bidding at 30sec duration and 1min recast; I'm sure that will change for the worse. <span>:smileysad:</span>  Doesn't hurt to aim high... <div></div>

[smegsaur]

<DIV>lol boomboom </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>12secs duration, and a 1min timer after that, its not all that bad, dont forget zhanders and kians retimer will be halved, can cast that 8x in teh 12secs duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>over a course of 20mins </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>prior to lu16 - 240secs of maestro</DIV> <DIV>new chanage - 200secs of maestro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i like the new one, shorter timer and shorter duration makes it more flexiable to use, makes it easier on teh templar also, no need to un root me no more if need to re position. makes aggro control for the 12secs easier and it is spread out so that would never be an issue if it ever was for anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>forget the dirge we are not a dirge</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-eiderdown 60troub Najena</DIV>

[pharacyde]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote: <div>One problem pointed out is coordinating casting of spells in a group in a small window of duration is difficult. I'm going to look into making one more adjustment to the spell to give it a slightly longer duration and recast, but keep the same overall DPS ratio. That way, there's a balance between using it in normal groups and raid situations without being overpowered upfront because of duration.</div><hr></blockquote>You could add an extra icon that says that buff is up. For example now when warlocks cast netherous realm it will show as a poison. You could add an extra of those icons just to say that a proc is on.</span><div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>Here is the update on PotM:</P> <P><EM><STRONG>Troubador changes:<BR></STRONG>- Precision of the Maestro now has a reuse timer of 90 seconds and a duration of 20 seconds</EM>.<BR></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=87#M87" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=87#M87</A></P>

[Sanju]

I still think that's too short, so you won't see me jumping for joy, but it's better than 12s / 1 min.  <div></div>

[pera]

<div></div>For a single non-epic mob 20 seconds i think fits pretty well, if you start it whenthe mob is about 90% the mob is usaly dead by the time it expires. Now epics since they are harder, yeah the 20 seconds duration does not last the full duration of the fight, but it still gives the group an  extra chance to do a lot more dmg in a short period of time. Also if anyone has a time I think the spell might be bugged, when casting t6 dd song Shrill it does not seem to alwasy proc the Maestro's extra dmg.  I havent actualy sat down and tested this for sure, but it was an observation.  but the way i understand it is ever all hostile abilites/spells can proc it other than our two CAs, the flanking attack, the steath attack, and our ranged special attack. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 AM</span>

[WooTast]

<span>I'll reserve judgment til I have played with it some. I think that the overall approach of shortening the duration as well as the recast timer was spot-on.<blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:I still think that's too short, so you won't see me jumping for joy, but it's better than 12s / 1 min.  <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[INF]

I don't mind it... but it is kind of annoying when me and a wizzy could solo every named in SC (except for the epics of course) <div></div>