Is Troubadour DPS to low

[IKS_Nels]

<P></P> <P></P> <P>From my experience over the last month and a halve and having taking my Troubadour to 54 I have noticed that Troubadours and Dirges are some what lacking in the DPS department when compared to other class </P> <P>Troubadours and Dirges were meant to be T3 with their dps </P> <P>And yet we are quite a way behind our other T3 counterparts and behind Bruisers and monks which were meant to be T4 </P> <P> </P> <P>If you want numbers these are some <U><STRONG>averages</STRONG></U> I have come across when  using my parse</P> <P> </P> <P>ills, 250 +</P> <P>bruisers and monks 250+</P> <P>Troubadours 180 +</P> <P> </P> <P>Now some suggestions to boost our DPS a little.</P> <P> </P> <P>(1)            Some spells have the animations that stop auto attacks, when using these attacks we can lose about 6 seconds of auto attack out of every 10 seconds, this is stupid and unnecessary and should be easy to fix, for example Ellis thunderous anthem takes about 3+ seconds to cast even if its meant to be 2, that is roughly 5 auto attacks i am missing out on at 40 to 60 a hit, meaning for casting that spell I am missing out on 200 to 300 damage with now power cost. About the same damage as the spell dose.</P> <P> </P> <P>(2)            we are really lacking on DPS vs large groups of mobs, had a healer (Fury) out dps me in group situation last week whilst throwing out the odd heal, combat was barely lasting 20 seconds allowing me to fire of only one AE attack before one of the mobs died then only getting a few CA,s off on the others having wasted time dancing around from mod to mob to land one CA at max on each hitting 140 dps whilst the Fury and other class hit 200 and far more, </P> <P> </P> <P>In general I am very Happy with all our buffs and only have a problem with our slightly low dps which makes soloing slow and dangerous at times especially them against the  ^ up mobs of equal level and at times I need a mez break to deal with them, especially if they are magic users.</P> <P> </P> <P>Any one else thinking along these lines or am I wanting to much =)</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by IKS_Nelson on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 AM</span>

[bellring]

<P></P> <P>yes we are to low.overall we to low compair to other classes..when you see other classes taking on blue 2 star up and you cant then you need ask why not.i know some one will say kite them.but why should we kite when other classes are not.</P> <P>and you right what you say about casting ,if we debuff we lose out in damage.if we go straght into combat we dont.</P> <P>plus in grps some caster will say i did 3k damage becuse of our buffs,yet we our self cant do that with our own buffs.</P> <P>we are paying the price for soe keeping the game in balence.and have been sence the game came out .</P> <P>i have a lvl 52 troubador,but seeing my account is up in dec,i have left the game.</P> <P> </P>

[Balmung of the Azure Sky]

<P>I've noticed this also. I'm greatly appreciative of the diversity of the new buffs we got, but I was duoing with a 60 dirge the other day, and my 60 troubador with higher ac, more avoidance, and better all around stats took more dmg, more often and did about 70% of the dirges dps. </P> <P>I'm wondering how the balancing works out when even though better gear is allocated to a troubador in this case with better stats to take dmg and avoid it, why do I take more dmg and put out less?</P> <P>If balancing is a cheap word for screwing certain classes over just to make the others happy, why do they call it balancing. I just saw my class get screwed.</P> <P></P>

[Jehannum]

<P></P> <P>To be honest, I think you may be looking for too much... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The fact that we can mez in the first place limits how much personal DPS Sony can allow us to do... To be honest what I'd like to see is a move more toward what we used to do in EQ1 in terms not of our dps (which sucked back then far worse than anything in this game) but in terms of the way we dealt it.  In this game it would have to actually amount to an increase in our dps because it'd also preclude using mez... What I'm referring to is the ability to lay down a variety of debuff/dot spells.  Kian's is nice but I'd love to see a troub ability to lay down a series of hot/cold dot/debuffs (a couple hundred mitigation and 50/tick damage at level 60 would be fine, so long as power costs were in line) and dirges a series of poison/disease dots, in addition to Kian's.  They'd need to be castable on the move of course, but this sort of thing would enable us as bards to enhance our personal dps at the expense of our ability to crowd control (mez/fear break on damage so would be less than completely useful)</P> <P>Ultimately though we've got a pretty sweet deal going on; we're still one of the few classes who can take on yellow ^^^ mobs, even if it does take ages, we're pretty much the best 5th or 6th party member out there (and none too poor a pick for the 4th either) and while our dps may not be of the highest (I haven't parsed in ages but I'm usually 4th or 5th for dps on others' parses) our combination of abilities saves the party from certain death in often-spectacular fashion.  Nothing like mezzing the Eye in Poet's Palace while the rest of the group recovers from a near-wipe, then debuffing it prior to break and re-casting Aria to allow the low-level wizard to land his IC with procs.  Amusingly, between the time the party died and the time I dropped Aria to debuff, I'd dealt about 4% damage to the eye just off procs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Could have probably mezzed it to death if I had several hours to kill <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Though I might need a wiz/warlock to feed me power.</P> <P></P>

[Sanju]

The lack of white space in this thread makes me a sad panda. 1. Not sure I understand you here. You're wanting to have instant-cast spells? (Or auto-attack while casting?) I don't agree with this. The cast time for a few of our spells is pretty short. The longest cast times are for our debuffs and AE. If you think you're losing too much autoattack while casting, stop casting the spells with a 3-sec cast time. 2. We excell against groups of mobs. Are you running aria? Using bellow (instant cast, can proc Aria)? Instead of assisting the tank on these (since the tank's target can die VERY fast, interrupting your long-cast AE) pick a secondary target and fire it off on it. Also remember that your Aria is adding a lot of dps to the casters in your group, especially in AE battles. They might get the dps boost from it, but it's because of you. Our dps is somewhat situational, but overall it's great ... especially at level 58+. <p></p>

[IKS_Nels]

<P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P>The main problem I am having with some of the large group mobs and their high level, is resists and Yes I do debuff on the way in but against 5 mobs the most i seem to damage most of the time is 2-3 due to their high resists, the initial target nearly always takes full damage as long as I use Debuffs first this goes for both our AE attacks.</P> <P>And when you go back and look at the parse you realize you did less damage using AE attacks then when using single target ones,  :smileysurprised: </P> <P> </P> <P>I always have the Aria line up I love this song! As I watch my debuffs do damage as they land, its just if mobs resist the initially attack they don't get proc Damage. :smileyindifferent: but I can live with that</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by IKS_Nelson on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 AM</span>

[Nydysean]

I agree that our dps is low.  I don't run a parser but when I am in a group with those who do then I am usually only beat out the main healer and that is because, well they are healing not dpsing.  I agree that once we get our mez I am sure that is when we will surely shine (1 more lvl for me) but having to wait until we are 50 to really be able to solo is well just plain nuts. <P></P>

[bellring]

mez is a wate of time in the long run ,why becuse you cant use on epics,and when you hit lvl 60 all you will be doing is raids with epics in them.then you need wait till next exspantion till you lvl up to get to use again.

[Snublefot]

Any balancing done due to epics should be frowned on with the same strength as pvp-balancing.Sure, give me more damage, but on the other hand I'm pretty happy with the toolbox I bring to a group. And my ability to solo.<div></div>

[TwiceRemov]

<DIV>Our damage is in our buffs, we may not score high on the dps scale, but we boost others dps which is just as good in the long run</DIV>

[WooTast]

<span>Im in a raiding guild but I will have a lot more to do at lvl 60 than raid.  I'm sure that I'll continue to use Lullaby. It's a great troub. feature.<blockquote><hr>bellringer wrote:mez is a wate of time in the long run ,why becuse you cant use on epics,and when you hit lvl 60 all you will be doing is raids with epics in them.then you need wait till next exspantion till you lvl up to get to use again. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[MaNiaGG]

<div></div>I quitted my lvl 54 assassin a month ago because the class is totaly broken atm. In about three weeks I managed to get to Lvl 43 troubador and did over 800 quests - yet I can't really judge about the class I think - but here are my thoughts. I chose troub because I don't wanted this "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I don't do much less DPS than class xyz" to hear any more - especially if it is true. I wanted a class which can solo a bit, is good in groups and helpful in raid situations. It also should be versatile and such... so I had two options imho: illusionist and troubador. Took the troub 'cause I think it fits my play style more...but I what I wanted to say: Playing a troubador, it isn't that much about DPS, as long as we bring such decent grp buffs and at least some DPS to the group/raid its all ok. We can do that atm I think, I'm not yet lacking DPS, in fact I'm doing good these days, although I dont know whats about that in 10, 15 levels... Troubs rock <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Feedback to OP: I don't think our autoattack is somewhat important - unless ur going for STR only items it won't even sum up playing a whole evening... ^^ <div></div><p>Message Edited by MaNiaGG on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[Maid]

<DIV>There is stuff i wonder about, it seems there is still alot unbalanced, when it come to our class:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are the worst class on dps, but priests. And even a priest did outdmg me on occasion. Ok one class has to be at the lower end ... just not sure if Troubadour is the one that suits that place well ???</DIV> <DIV>(If u ask me, i prefer the idea of 1 or 2 singel target DoTs. That can be cast on run, and sure do break mez.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Off topic:</DIV> <DIV>And we still have some bugged skills, Ellies is useless (coz autoattck is much better), Requiem of Reflection is not worth a conc (the chance it does something usefull is almost zero), Our selfbuff should not use conc (If u play Aria of Exalation u need to play the selfbuff too to raise the dmg of it, its just like one buff using 2 conc), our haste spell is useless too (I did never met a Troub that palys that song, the haste raise is to low), Selo's should stack with some other spells or get a 40%speed update at lvl 60, our healthregen does not make a big difference (the effect should be raised, at lest doubled)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw:</DIV> <DIV>We can solo single mobs very well, but we cant do anything about groups of 3 or more, even 4 blue one-cone-up own me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>==> so alltogether i am growing more and more unhappy, especially now that i discover most other classes got special skills that own our utilities. We are not unique anymore when other classes can fullfill our role better then we do ... what was our role again? When did the last Dev post in our boards?</DIV>

[Andric_D]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>imo our CA's/Spells are too weak . In general our adept 3's are doing what we should do at adept 1 or even less. Our ability to add to caster dps is ok in a very caster heavy group but in a mellee heavy group we are very weak. Aria of reflection is a waste of mana even casting let alone maintaining with a concentration slot. Its too rare that it works and even when it does teh Mob will resist its own spells near all the time. Its garbage as far as I have seen. We need better mellee abilities and a better base damage for both our spells and abilities. Our ability to debuff for our magic damage type is not enough to make up the shortfall in our damage output. Aditionally our only mental debuff is too weak and short lived. mental debuff shoudl be added to more of our attacks/debuffs and a lot of it.  This woudl help significantly in increasing our dps without having to change every ability Our auto attack damage is to low - also in a general set up our str/sta buff does far to little to be a real choice unless in a totally mellee group where it still buffs to little to be really noticible. We are a mellee centric class but being mainly re-designed to buff casters we do not have good enough tools to increase our mellee abilities and defence enough in a solo/duo or mellee heavy group. The regen song does not make up for our poor defence at all and our spell damage proc should work with mellee special abilites with special effects and procs. <p>Message Edited by Andric_D on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maiden wrote:<BR> <DIV>Btw:</DIV> <DIV>We can solo single mobs very well, but we cant do anything about groups of 3 or more, even 4 blue one-cone-up own me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>[Removed for Content] are you talking about, can't solo groups of mobs? Running Aria's we have 5 (yes 5) encounter effects that can proc against all of the mobs. Lets count them - pull with Zanders (may proc) - hit them with the str/agility debuff (may proc)as they move to attack, follow with the Kellin's DoT (may proc) - hit them with the AoE DD (may proc) Hit them with the interupt AoE (may cause proc).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the time I finished this cylcle and auto-attacked the first target most of the others are under 40% health, if not alot more.  Then I can rinse and repeat to finsh them all off. Cake. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Derrick]

<DIV> <DIV>Not sure you all get it though.. i do run the dps calc. I am outdamage by the main tank 80% of the time. Scouts dps was supposed to be above tanks but almsto every tank ive grouped with cna outdamage me including Zerkers in defensive mode. You all dont understand i dont think. We are just as useful if were AFK as if we are thre. You all are arguing that our buffs make up for our lack of dps. That doesnt help the playstyle any does it?? That makes our class a buff bot. If i go AFK in the midle of a epic no one would notice. the DPS isnt curcial enough to notice. if the MT went afk woudl someone notice? If one of hte healaers went AFK int he middle of a fight woul someone notice?? If a wizzy or ranger went afk woudl someone notice??? YES but if we go afk out dps are not much differnt hten if we were to try to do dmg and out buffs are passive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We did drayek and i have enoguh power regen to do specials the whole time non  stop. I wa sin main group and the main tank did 15k more dmg then me and even the wizard outdaamged me in the last 45 seconds of the fight since he was powerbuffing the MT the rest of the time. In 45 seconds he did more dmg then i did in liek 5 mins. I did a lot of dmg and drayek wasnt resisting my dps. Our dps are jsut that low. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a nutshell, even healers have ONE spell that does over 800-1000 dmg and at 52 i think the most dmg ive EVER done is jsut over 400. Thats sad. Like others said.. our DOT... does liek 67 dmg a tick at 25 dmg per tick. Thats 670 dmg for 250 mana in 60 seconds. LOL what a joke. Most classes can do 670 dmg in 1 attack in 1 second for 50 power.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like someone else said too, i can do more dmg wiht my duel wield DPS as it takes to cast elis thunderous anthem. With elis thunderous antehm i hit leik 250 MAX and that takes bout 3 seoncds of non melee dmg. Duel wield hitting bout 2x a sec so thats 6 hits in 3 seconds at bout 50 a hit. Pointles spell as it cost maan to cast that and none to just dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our archery attack sucks .. does like a total of leik 300 dmg IF  both hits hit for max. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive seen jstu about every class hti for 600-700 at lvl 50 and i RARELY hit over 400 with my highest hit. My g/f has a pally that can hti with 3 or 4 different attacks for 400-600 or more. Most people in group outdamage me when im trying my hardest to dps and then they say they wernt even trying. its sad how poor our dps really are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our dps are really sad IMO ive treid posting before but had problems and sent in multiple feedbacks. Ive seen lots of classes (that also have multiple abilities like pallys wiht heals and such) deal out lots of dps and such in a short time yet we cannot deal any type of dps at all.</DIV></DIV>

[Aienaa]

<P>First off I supose I should say a bit about myself...  My main character is a 60 Assassin and my second character (which I am currently playing more often) is a 50 Troubador and I also play my friends 60 Troubador quite a bit....   I also log every encounter and periodicly parse the fights...   </P> <P>The 60 Troubador averages about 350 DPS, MT (generaly a guardian) runs about 250 DPS, where my Assassin runs about 400-450 DPS (without Assassinate and Deathly Blade because of thier timers)...   If you recall the DPS tiers that SOE had posted, Bards (Troubadors and Dirges) were suposed to be Tier 3, 1 step up from Tanks (Guardians, ect) and 2 steps down from Tier 1 (Assassin, Ranger, Wizard and Warlock).... So, in general, the DPS is about where it is suposed to be....  If anything, there is 1 skill that could be considered over-powered, and that is.....</P> <P>Once every 5 mins (the buff lasts for 1 min, then 4 min refresh) the Troubador can use Precision of the Maestro and the DPS jumps to 700-1200+ DPS, which exceeds the max DPS I can put out with my Assassin once every 15 minutes (from Assassinate and/or Deathly Blade)...  The way we have done this is with the MT pulling multiple groups (we generally do this out side Ancients Table in PoF, but works on any grouped encounters)...  Once the MT pulls a few groups (2-3 for starters), the Troubador uses Precision and goes at it...  the first 3 group die within 20 seconds and the MT pulls more group and you repeat (precision already being on) and the rest are killed off....  In the course of 1 min, you can kill up to 6 groups of mobs, then pull normal for the next 4 mins and then repeat....  Troubador average DPS at this point far exceeds Tier 2 classes and is on par with Tier 1 classes....</P> <P>The key to Troubador DPS in boosting your INT....  The higher your INT, the higher the damage range on your spells....  In combo with the increased INT is running Aria (which I suggest taking the Master 2 training at Lev 54)....  Next to the damage that Aria does, your auto-attack damage is dwarfed...  Aria generally accounts for upwards of 40% of your total damage....  But, as I said, your spell damage is based on your INT, so it is imparitive to get your INT pretty high....</P> <P>If you are geared up for STR (to boost Melee Damage), you will be doing signifcanly less damage than if you gear up for INT (to boost Spell Damage) and use Aria....</P> <P>For thoes that say soloing is bad...  Yeah there are some bad points about soloing, but I just went from 47-50 in the last 3 days doing nothing but soloing (and I'm currently wearing T5 rare Leather Armor with only some INT jewelry (206 INT self buffed))...  For Soloing I use a Ebon Scimitar (+6 int) and a Round Shield (+10 int) for the added avoidance....  </P> <P>For group encounters, I generally pull with Oppresive Discante, hit them with the DOT, then Zanders, next is bellow, start HO and finish with Alin's...  Then will do some single target attacks until my AE's come back up... I always hit Bellow as soon as it refreshes (instant cast and can proc Aria)...  </P> <P>For single target encounters, I generally pull with our snare (mental debuff and can proc Aria), hit it with Discante, Bellow, then DOT, then Zanders, next start HO and finish with single target attack...  As before, use Bellow as it refreshes....  Use Cheap Shot (on no arrow or down arrow mobs) to stun, hit invis and run around back and use Shrill....</P> <P>As someone said previously, despite your individual DPS, it's what you bring to groups that really makes the class...  Aria will proc on all group members offensive spells... Yeah, warrior taunts will proc Aria... Priest debuffs will proc Aria... and of course all Mage class spells will proc Aria....  The added damage a Troubador brings to a group is amazing, not to even mention the other buffs associated with Troubadors....  Gracefull Avoidance line, Raxxyl's, resist buffs, and even Swan Song line and Opus lines have thier places....   Not to mention the ability to mez is huge, even at raids...  It may be a epic encounter, but the non-named mobs in the encounter are usually mezable....</P> <P>One skill I think that really needs to be looked at is Requiem of Reflection....  If I remember that stats correctly, it has a 11% to proc reflection, and then something like a 60% to reflect....  That initial 11% chance to proc reflection is way too low as many times it will never go off in a fight.... I think the inital proc should be increased and the duration of reflection needs to be increased...  </P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin</P> <P>Parody - 50 troubador</P>

[Shadoerider]

<div></div>Precision of the Maestro is far from overpowered. In order to do all the dmg that you are talking about you have to have multiple casters in the group casting spells. It is only effective in a group. When you use it in a solo instance it's like using poison which all other scouts except bards have. This spell evens the scout classes out and we still have to be rooted to use the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. Also when fighting Epic groups now all the mobs are labled epic in the expansion making them non mezzable by our mez <div></div><p>Message Edited by Shadoerider on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Aienaa]

<HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Also when fighting Epic groups now all the mobs are labled epic in the expansion making them non mezzable by our mez</FONT> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, you are incorrect...    the non-named of epic encounters are not flagged epic, as our Troubadors were mezing them...  I know for a fact this works in Gates of Akhet Aken and Silent City (epic portion) and I will have to test more places...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In order to do all the dmg that you are talking about you have to have multiple casters in the group casting spells. It is only effective in a group. When you use it in a solo instance it's like using poison which all other scouts except bards have.<BR></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok...  Poisons for scouts (non-bards) account for roughly 15% of thier damage....  Precision of the Maestro, even when solo, accounts for 50+% of thier damage, and does ALOT more damage than poisons do....  Precision has a 100% chance to proc, Poisons have a 25% chance to proc....  Precision does more damage than poisons do....  If your not pushing 500+ DPS on a single mob encounter solo while using Precision, then something is wrong....  Precision's damage is based on your INT, if you are not geared up for high INT, yeah, your Precision damage will be lower, as will all your spell damage, resulting in lower DPS...  But if you are geared up to take advantage of the fact that increasing your INT, increases the damage of your spells, then there is no reason you should be doing low DPS, especially while running Precision...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The DPS range I had listed for Precision was from a group with the following make up....  Pally, Troubador, Assassin, Swash, Templar, Illusionist....  That is hardly a group filled with casters....   Now if you make a group with 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 troubador and 3 caster classes, I'm sure you can see DPS in the 2k range while using Precision</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>This spell evens the scout classes out and we still have to be rooted to use the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does it really matter if your rooted??  it's not like you have to move behind the mobs to cast your debuffs or spells that proc Precision, since they can all be cast from ranged position....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if all scouts were suposed to be even DPS-wise, then Troubadors/Dirge would not have been listed as Tier 3 DPS, nor would Swash/Brigand been listed as Tier 2 DPS, nor would Rangers/Assassins been listed as Tier 1 DPS...  They all would have been lumped together in 1 tier....  It looks like you want Tier 1 DPS and retain your buffing capabilities, but thoes in Tier 1 have pretty much no buffing abilities and the only thing they bring to a group is DPS....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AndyTheSlay]

Here is how I feel in regaurds to all this nay saying on Troubador damage: Dont like you dps? Make a Wizzy Warlock Assassin or Ranger, lets see them do anything besides DPS.  Oh thats right, thats what they do, what do bard do again? Oh thats right the buff groups and add some Dps and overall add to the groups Dps, where in the case of those list before, they have just their Dps, they add little to a group besides that. <div></div>

[Maid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maiden wrote:<BR> <DIV>Btw:</DIV> <DIV>We can solo single mobs very well, but we cant do anything about groups of 3 or more, even 4 blue one-cone-up own me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>[Removed for Content] are you talking about, can't solo groups of mobs? Running Aria's we have 5 (yes 5) encounter effects that can proc against all of the mobs. Lets count them - pull with Zanders (may proc) - hit them with the str/agility debuff (may proc)as they move to attack, follow with the Kellin's DoT (may proc) - hit them with the AoE DD (may proc) Hit them with the interupt AoE (may cause proc).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the time I finished this cylcle and auto-attacked the first target most of the others are under 40% health, if not alot more.  Then I can rinse and repeat to finsh them all off. Cake. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes you are right, i can do the same thing you are talkin about. And i do it with a similar strat. But if i go for groups with ^ (cone-ups) i ll just be killed to fast. My gear is realy ok and i tried to go with my shield, but i am still killed to fast in many occasions.

[Aienaa]

<HR> Yes you are right, i can do the same thing you are talkin about. And i do it with a similar strat. But if i go for groups with ^ (cone-ups) i ll just be killed to fast. My gear is realy ok and i tried to go with my shield, but i am still killed to fast in many occasions. <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm... I do not recall ever seeing groups of single ^ other than heroic groups, and if your trying to solo these, yeah your going to run into problems....  Small group / Solo content is either 1 mob with a single ^, or a group of mobs with no arrows or down arrows...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV>

[Sanju]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<hr> <font color="#ffff00"></font><div><font color="#ffff00">In order to do all the dmg that you are talking about you have to have multiple casters in the group casting spells. It is only effective in a group. When you use it in a solo instance it's like using poison which all other scouts except bards have.</font> <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div>Ok...  Poisons for scouts (non-bards) account for roughly 15% of thier damage....  Precision of the Maestro, even when solo, accounts for 50+% of thier damage, and does ALOT more damage than poisons do.... </div>  <div>Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Using Precision turns off auto-attack, so of course it's going to be a larger percentage of the total damage output -- it has to make up for the lost dps of auto-attack, too. ~500 dps solo (your numbers) for 1 minute of every 5 is not huge. Don't forget it's also useless against Terrorantula (and a few other mental resistant/immune raid mobs), so it remains a very situational spell. </span><div></div>

[Orid]

<DIV>I'm pretty happy with my troubador but still was thinking about posting a thread like this last week... I decided not to until I could find the Moorgard post about the damage Tier's and until I was 60. Anyhow, glad the OP decided to post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aienaa, Assassin is a bad T1 to compare any sort of T1 DPS with. They are in my opinion, and the opinion of many assassin's I've talked to, broken DPS wise. T1 DPS people average 500+. Some of our rangers average 500+ dps with just auto attack and I've seen sustained DPS numbers above 1000+ depending on the encounter. I've seen brawlers, zerkers and enchanters all hit 1000 dps before and they are supposed to be low DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes everything I have (lvl 55 atm) to break 200 DPS and in normal guild groups, I'm pretty close to the bottom of the DPS list along with the templar.  I've grouped with every class in my grind to 60 and I can safely say that the only people I know I can out damage (in most situatinos) is shaman, templars, and wardens. My gear is Int based and have gotten my int as high as 400 with buffs. Granted, I did do more damage, but was still near the bottom of the DPS list. I'm dual weilding imbued cobalt weapons too. I regulary trio with a guardian and a templar, and the guardian nearly every battle, out DPS' me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were to order every class according to their DPS, it would be like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlock, Wizard, Ranger, Swashbuckler, Brigand, Beserker, Bruiser, Assassin, Enchanter, Coercer, Monk, Fury, Dirge, Inquisitor, Troubador, Defiler, Mystic, Warden, Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, in terms of their original Tier groupings for DPS, we aren't doing what we should. Then again, many classes are either doing way more then they should or not enough. If they aren't going by that anymore and things are designed and intended then that's cool, no worries.. but if they are still going by that, then bards need a bump up in the DPS department. The 5 minute recast skill that was mentioned before puts us on par DPS wise with other classes (such as beserkers) who have a similar ability that increases their DPS for a short time with a long recast. This ability isn't the basis of our DPS or any classes DPS.</DIV>

[Maid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <HR> Yes you are right, i can do the same thing you are talkin about. And i do it with a similar strat. But if i go for groups with ^ (cone-ups) i ll just be killed to fast. My gear is realy ok and i tried to go with my shield, but i am still killed to fast in many occasions. <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm... I do not recall ever seeing groups of single ^ other than heroic groups, and if your trying to solo these, yeah your going to run into problems....  Small group / Solo content is either 1 mob with a single ^, or a group of mobs with no arrows or down arrows...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its a solo instance. :smileywink:

[ForgottenFoundling]

Guys, you can't compare our damage to a tank's damage anymore because of some damage shield type spells which attribute aggro (and hate) to the tank.  Frost shield is a perfect example of such a spell and generally puts the Tanks DPS in the middle to top of a well balanced group (also, almost always above my damage).

[pharacyde]

Nihilism <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> best damage shield ever. Right now I am level 31 as a troub. I worked to get my INT has high as possible, since I am a caster and my skill is disruption for dps. Honestly I do 20-30% more damage with my Int self buff on. It increases my INT by 83 I think (Master I). DPS is very gear specific and stat specific now. Upgrading your spells to adept III and getting good overal stats helps alot. You can not compare a full legendary tanks dps to a treasured equipped troub. You have to keep in mind that all those things affect your damage. My personal experience is that my dps is where it should be. When I group I dont have to complain about my dps. <div></div>

[Boombastix]

Bard's generally do most of their DPS through other group members so if you want to look good on a parser, choose another class.  Of course this isn't counting Precision of the Maestro which is sexual chocolate!  That spell has enabled me to out DPS every other class I've grouped with in certain situations.  Trouby's relatively low self DPS is more than offset by what it enables others to do so in conclusion:- Trouby's DPS is just right and in some situations, we totally rock!  <div></div>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Derricks2 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a nutshell, even healers have ONE spell that does over 800-1000 dmg and at 52 i think the most dmg ive EVER done is jsut over 400. Thats sad. Like others said.. our DOT... does liek 67 dmg a tick at 25 dmg per tick. Thats 670 dmg for 250 mana in 60 seconds. LOL what a joke. Most classes can do 670 dmg in 1 attack in 1 second for 50 power.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like someone else said too, i can do more dmg wiht my duel wield DPS as it takes to cast elis thunderous anthem. With elis thunderous antehm i hit leik 250 MAX and that takes bout 3 seoncds of non melee dmg. Duel wield hitting bout 2x a sec so thats 6 hits in 3 seconds at bout 50 a hit. Pointles spell as it cost maan to cast that and none to just dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive seen jstu about every class hti for 600-700 at lvl 50 and i RARELY hit over 400 with my highest hit. My g/f has a pally that can hti with 3 or 4 different attacks for 400-600 or more. Most people in group outdamage me when im trying my hardest to dps and then they say they wernt even trying. its sad how poor our dps really are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is totally at odds with the results I am seeing. At level 43 I am regularly hitting 550+ with our DD and around 300 with Elis. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You either 1. Aren't upgrading your arts 2. Not debuffing (or upgrading your debuff arts)  3. ignoring the impact of a high Int stat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you truly are only hitting for around 400 at level 50 then I would say it must be all three of the above. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Meadsong on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Derricks2 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a nutshell, even healers have ONE spell that does over 800-1000 dmg and at 52 i think the most dmg ive EVER done is jsut over 400. Thats sad. Like others said.. our DOT... does liek 67 dmg a tick at 25 dmg per tick. Thats 670 dmg for 250 mana in 60 seconds. LOL what a joke. Most classes can do 670 dmg in 1 attack in 1 second for 50 power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like someone else said too, i can do more dmg wiht my duel wield DPS as it takes to cast elis thunderous anthem. With elis thunderous antehm i hit leik 250 MAX and that takes bout 3 seoncds of non melee dmg. Duel wield hitting bout 2x a sec so thats 6 hits in 3 seconds at bout 50 a hit. Pointles spell as it cost maan to cast that and none to just dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive seen jstu about every class hti for 600-700 at lvl 50 and i RARELY hit over 400 with my highest hit. My g/f has a pally that can hti with 3 or 4 different attacks for 400-600 or more. Most people in group outdamage me when im trying my hardest to dps and then they say they wernt even trying. its sad how poor our dps really are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is totally at odds with the results I am seeing. At level 43 I am regularly hitting 550+ with our DD and around 300 with Elis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You either 1. Aren't upgrading your arts 2. Not debuffing (or upgrading your debuff arts)  3. ignoring the impact of a high Int stat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you truly are only hitting for around 400 at level 50 then I would say it must be all three of the above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Meadsong on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:04 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>At 43 I wasn't getting numbers anything like what you're claiming, but then that was also pre-revamp so that's to be expected; back then, our dps was even worse and mobs were able to mitigate it, making it even weaker.  Until I was 54 I was still limited to pretty much the same kind of 550-point damage you're able to get (gotta love a well-upgraded and recent DD song to skew results hehe) along with, of course, upgrades on several other abilities.</P> <P>I've spoken to healers from all archetypes about their DD capability, and pretty much uniformly it's limited to about a 5-700 range in the 50s, except for things like bonus vs undead, etc.  I have a melee CA which does as much, plus a DD which does similar, plus a <STRONG>group</STRONG> dd which does marginally less, plus a dd which does as much as <STRONG>1400</STRONG> if all my debuffs are active, let alone anyone else's.  I can use them all in the 17 seconds it takes to refresh the big DD and I'd be willing to bet that most healers can't even approach, let alone equal, that kind of output.  I'm not even bringing up the kind of dps boost I can achieve with Precision because I'm confident that our DD outdoes theirs without bringing mega-dps songs into the mix.</P> <P>Now, I do recall hearing that my healer-friends' Master Smites hit for a fair chunk of damage... But, with that in mind, have you ever seen what happens when 3 scouts hit their Master Strikes in quick succession?  I have, and it earned me a spot on the top melee hits list for my server.</P> <P>Eli's would undoubtedly be more useful if it were reduced to a 2-second cast, that much I won't argue; in fact it's usually the only one I omit from the cycle since Alin's does similar damage to the entire encounter.  That said though, in terms of its actual dps contribution it's not nearly as bad as many people seem to think; weak, yes.  Underpowered and worthless, no.</P> <P>Ultimately I think Derricks' real issue is not so much the poor dps ability of troubadours, but rather that a) Aria doesn't reflect to the troub's credit (and aggro) but to that of the original spell's caster, and that b) there's another two levels to go before he receives what is, currently, our second-best song in terms of dps.  With int in the 300's and debuffs running, Exquisite Shrill adds a good 80 dps and easily doubles the last song in the same line.  When Daelis' Jig of Blades becomes available, that's an additional 22 int buff and an extra handful of agil too; in combination with some decent int gear (+15 belt, currently using Defrauder's Dirk and Archon roundshield for 'caster' mode until I get my cobalts done) reaching the 300 range shouldn't be too rough in the mid-50s.</P> <P>If dps is really your focus (at the expense of defensibility) you may want to consider the potential benefits of trading out some hard-points for cambric items too.  For troubs, int is far more critical to the damage we deal than strength.</P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<DIV>Don't even bother with cambric items.  Get a sandcloth blouse made for raiding/grouping (+16 int) and can be obtained for 10-15g from any lvl 55 tailor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't have cobalt pants and cap, get a pristine tailored specialists hat (+16 int) and sandcloth pantaloons (+16 int).  All of these are common crafted items and will run you considerably less than a producers cap or cambric blouse and pants (only +20 int).  Of course, if money is no object, then I'm sure your local tailor would be happy to sell big ticket items.</DIV>

[cid]

<DIV>I agree Troub dps need a boost why?</DIV> <DIV>when you have no group and need to solo dps is a big issue for us, any class can do better even my inquisitor lol it's so ridiculous, ok i understand we are utility class, but we are scout too(mean dps).</DIV> <DIV>Yeah we can kite but why the hell i have to run and aggro other mob and take more risk and time to kill mob when a ranger exemple come few arrow and the mob is dead or any class can kill with less risk and time than us.</DIV> <DIV>WHY because our dps is the big prob, if they dont want to give us dps give us a charm with possibility to use the pet to attack... or something that make our dps something close to what is supposed be we are scout class too!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aienaa]

<HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>if they dont want to give us dps give us a charm with possibility to use the pet to attack...</FONT> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>any class can kill with less risk and time than us.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dystopya]

If you cant solo groups of four you arent doing it right. Remember that we have the ability to mez up to two targets and charm one while still being able to battle <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[pharacyde]

If you come with the excuse, my dps is too low because I can not solo an heroic mob, dont expect any changes. You are not supposed to solo heroic mobs. Anyway you can always hope for the best. <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystopya wrote:<BR>If you cant solo groups of four you arent doing it right.<BR><BR>Remember that we have the ability to mez up to two targets and charm one while still being able to battle <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heh, we can mez more than 2. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[pera]

I personaly think our dps is pretty much in line with all of the other abilites that we have.  The additions that we give to the group are mostly why our dps is as low as it is.  Which imo is very well balanced. Wait till you get Processinal of the Maestro, and you can prettend that you are doing 500 - 700 dps.   hehe but really its the group, but stil we can pretend. <div></div>

[cid]

<DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <P>You Know whats is real funny, First u talk about pepole fully geared with t6 and max lvl  with many master spell, because with no healer or regular bp like most pepole t4 t5 and adept1 spell  i wonder how you can do these... 3 mob and one named lol who can do that not a regular troubadour with a t5 t4 armor in the 50s.... compare apple with apple...</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Well its funny you say that my friend lvl 60 assassin can kill heroic mob with no problem, and my other friend too they none stop kill heroic mob(so easy to say)</DIV> <DIV>I didnt say troubadour are bad i say we need dps boost we are scout,,,, not a healer class dps(who is most of time better dps) we supposed be a tier 4 dps our dps is far from that. as our regen health if u talk about the 55 per tick in battle...and the 35 per tick mana regen in battle it's not that huge....</DIV> <DIV>Do we play the same class ?</DIV> <DIV>If you that good with your troubadour Gratz<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please prove it with a pic in game of you killing the named solo in dof because im sorry i cant belive it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[pharacyde]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>cidus wrote:<div></div> <div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> <div>Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...</div> <div> </div> <div>Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....</div> <div> </div> <div>My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...</div> <div> <hr> </div></div></div> <p>You Know whats is real funny, First u talk about pepole fully geared with t6 and max lvl  with many master spell, because with no healer or regular bp like most pepole t4 t5 and adept1 spell  i wonder how you can do these... 3 mob and one named lol who can do that not a regular troubadour with a t5 t4 armor in the 50s.... compare apple with apple...</p> <p></p> <hr> <div>My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....</div> <div> <hr> </div> <div>Well its funny you say that my friend lvl 60 assassin can kill heroic mob with no problem, and my other friend too they none stop kill heroic mob(so easy to say)</div> <div>I didnt say troubadour are bad i say we need dps boost we are scout,,,, not a healer class dps(who is most of time better dps) we supposed be a tier 4 dps our dps is far from that. as our regen health if u talk about the 55 per tick in battle...and the 35 per tick mana regen in battle it's not that huge....</div> <div>Do we play the same class ?</div> <div>If you that good with your troubadour Gratz<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please prove it with a pic in game of you killing the named solo in dof because im sorry i cant belive it...</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>It is very simple you know. You can choose the red or the blue pill. The red pill gives you buffs to help your grp to do more damage and better surive abilities. The blue pill gives you uber dps of T1 dps classes. You choose the red pill and you are [Removed for Content] about it. I think Neo would have been [Removed for Content] also. And there you are wanting the blue pill now. You made a choice. You choose for a troubadour. We already have soo much, Evac(scouts, wizard, sk and warden), health regen(zerker and troub), mana regen(bard and chanter ability), defensive buff(alot of classes have this), resist buffs(alot of classes have it, but we have 4resist buffs, while other classes only have 2), casting level buffs(warlock ability), proc buff(illusionist ability, warlock, and others, but troubs can keep that proc up all the time, while other classes can cast it for a few seconds every few minuts), speed buff(scouts ability), hate reduction song(our main ability), snare(ranger main ability), mezz(chanter main ability), charm(coercer main ability). Ok so we have alot of spells that could replace alot of shortcommings in a group. We can adapt to a group very well, we fit in any group. This is what we do. What makes troubs unique is that they buff casters VERY well. I am a lvl 60 warlock as main. And I can tell you, the troubadour is my hero. The hate reduction song helps me do more dps. The disonante note procs help me to use less mana for the same amount of damage. The health regen helps to heal up faster in case of AEs. I think you people lately are too much based on their dps. Even if they know they arent dps only. If a ranger that is actualy dps only in a group for most of it, would complain that a troub does more damage then him, I would understand the complaint. But a troubadour complaining that a paladin in some sitautions does more dps then him. Just accept that you can not be the best in everything. You already bring soooooo much to a grp. Let others bring something to the grp as form of dps. Dont be stupid and selfish, let others be usefull in the game also. I will be honest, I am very dps based with my warlock, because dps is the thing we do best. Troubadours buff grps the best. So warlocks should be very good at doing dps even the best in most cases, while troubadours should be teh best buffers in the game. As far as I am concerned I think its like that. PS : maybe this post will give you more dps, but to what cost ? you might loose a nice buff to it. Is it realy worth it ? I don't think so. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by pharacyde on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 PM</span>

[Jak]

Yes Pharacyde, I understand your point.  But what you are asking troubadors to accept and enjoy is the job of a buffbot.  Our main job would be to follow the casters around as a pet.  Most people would like to be more active in their play style and not just a passive buffbot.  If I had selected this pettern of play then I should take what I get and be happy.  However, I did not select this when I created my toon a year ago.  This role was created for me in the revamp after I had already 10 months invested and 50 levels.  I am happy to help the casters look uber and powerful.  However, I too would like to ACTIVELY participate in the distruction of the mobs.  I dont like that I can af the warlock, put up my buffs, and go paint my house with no one even noticing I'm gone.  In short, I agree that troubs need a DPS boost.  Also a fix to reflection which is a very big dissapointment.   Do i expect to get either?  Nope. <div></div>

[Snublefot]

How about letting you cast a 30s buff on the Mage every 30 seconds complete with a huge "Troub helps" text in chat? No? You would participate, but I find it more fun to give the buff and do my little thing with a couple of sharp swords, and maybe save the day with a little mez thrown into the fray. You knew what you signed up for. The chance of bards beeing damage kings where slim indeed.

[battleba]

<DIV>Dear whiney bi%$#@&,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a Troubador, I've lvl'd to 60.  I parsed pretty much the whole way up.  Generally I only group with high dps players and we'd pull as fast as we could.  Generally I grouped with wiz/warlock/bruiser/zerker/healer sometimes sub'n one of the classes for dirge/brig/assassin/monk/ranger.  We all have small dicks IRL so we like to show off our virtual dicks by going all out dps and post the parse in group.  You know pulling 2 groups of mobs having the bruiser/zerk use their massive ae attacks, wiz/war same etc etc.  Did I ever post top parse?, rarely.  However I was always in top 3.  Ok BFD top 3.  But here's the kicker.  Letting the parser run through 20 fights put me at the # 2 spot for dps and occasionally top spot.  Over 1 hr of fighting letting the parser run, more often than not I was number 1 in DPS.  So if you can't do high end dps, basically you suck and should prob go play wow or make a new class for EQ2.  Our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is strong, and versitile, pull your head out and think outside the box.  Thank you for your time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by battlebard on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Jehannum]

<P>I agree that most people who don't see our dps potential just aren't playing to our potential, though I have to admit you've got numbers which outdo mine.  I usually saw myself ending up 4th or 5th but that's more likely a function of my chosen task than of our low dps - I'm mez-happy.</P> <P>That said, even on fights where I'm mezzing two mobs (our overachieving SK tank/puller has no sense of his own mortality and often requires a bit of tempering lol) my dps is above that of any healer in the group, save for when I see all their hits doubled by a lucky streak of Aria procs.  Longer-term (over an hour) I end up moving up a slot, and over a long, long time I tend to be either second or third for dps - right behind however many warlocks and wizards are in my group.   I haven't done any serious parsing since working out how best to use Precision (too early and it wastes massive healing power, too late and it's a waste itself) but I'd anticipate being able to claim a spot either near, or just behind, my roomie the warlock.  That ain't bad for a "tier 3" dps, but it brings up my thought on our class.</P> <P>We're not really tier 3 dps any more than any class is locked into a tier.  Preds can, I'm sure, relegate themselves to T2 if they use the wrong abilities.  Healers can break out to a higher tier if they go all-out and crank int at the expense of other stats.  We, on the other hand, are not so restricted.  In fact, we troubadours are arguably the most fluid in terms of our damage tier, of any class.  If we spend most of our time mezzing we're healer dps.  Spend it on big dps though, and we can equal or excel T1.</P>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<P>Yeah, we're pretty consistent DPS.  No, we aren't the best (nor should we be).  As has been pointed out, I can either buff the group and make things go faster, or I can buff myself to do more singular dps.  Typically, I side with the group buffing paragon.  Groups notice when I come and definitely notice when I leave.  I solo a lot as well and can take on some really difficult opponents given enough time (highest so far is lvl 58 named heroic harpy in PoF at lvl 55).  But, it took me ages.  I'm also fully rared out (equipment-wise) and have 95% of my spells at adept 3 or better.  </P> <P>I have difficulty with all encounters except solo or grouped solos, but I CAN win if I'm patient and use strategy.  Is soloing to 60 recommended?  Not by this troubie, but if I had to do it, I could.</P>

[Jehannum]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah, we're pretty consistent DPS.  No, we aren't the best (nor should we be).  As has been pointed out, I can either buff the group and make things go faster, or I can buff myself to do more singular dps.  Typically, I side with the group buffing paragon.  Groups notice when I come and definitely notice when I leave.  I solo a lot as well and can take on some really difficult opponents given enough time (highest so far is lvl 58 named heroic harpy in PoF at lvl 55).  But, it took me ages.  I'm also fully rared out (equipment-wise) and have 95% of my spells at adept 3 or better.  </P> <P>I have difficulty with all encounters except solo or grouped solos, but I CAN win if I'm patient and use strategy.  Is soloing to 60 recommended?  Not by this troubie, but if I had to do it, I could.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I agree in the main with most of what you post; it's nice to see another troubie who recognises our worth and isn't afraid to say it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toughest mob (relatively) I ever took out solo was a level 57^^^ giant, at level 52.  No Processional, no Precision, no upgraded Shrill (for which I'd have KILLED at the time, and in retrospect did) and it took a good 35-40 minutes to whittle him down, but kill him I did.  Granted that was before orange/red mobs got the big resist/avoidance buff but I've taken down +4 ^^^ since the tweak - tough, but doable.  Couldn't have done it without the prizzie plus Bria plus the occasional hit off a manastone (at one point the manastone was all that helped me recover when I didn't have the power to mez, took 5 mins of mezzing to regain 50% power and off I went again)  The key is not to succomb to impatience.  If you're going after big prey solo, be prepared for it to take a while because our dps is decent but our tanking is weak, and so a long-term fight depends on using somewhat underhanded techniques.  At 60, the mez-to-death definitely is easier thanks to Precision, which ability also confers a much greater potential to take down grouped singles - don't believe me, get in Alin's range of a group, fire up Precision followed by Kian's, Zander's, Bellow, Processional, Descante, Alin's and if there're still any standing work 'em over with a shrill (that montage should deal close to 3-4k per mob, and if done right interrupts their opening CAs as well as dropping their skill, str and agi shortly after they reach you).  If the mobs aren't dead, fire off another round of everything except Processional and Descante.  Do avoid groups of cyclopes and other healing classes though; those are a serious PITA.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>I got you beat on one aspect at least tho Poofter... When I took down my 58^^^ at 54, I had only 3 of the abilities I use upgraded; Aria Ad3, Mez Ad3, Shrill M2.  The rest of my stuff was 90% adept 1 hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though; I wouldn't recommend soloing to any bard who wants to stay sane... Get a group with at least one tank, one mage and one healer and go to town.  You'll be happier, you'll see a huge difference due to your own contribution, and you'll earn new friends just by virtue of how much better they think you make them look.  The fact that WE know it's really OUR dissonant note can be kept between just us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So long as the warlock gets the aggro too, it's all good.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add some (bigger) paragraph breaks because the forum software sucks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Jehannum on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

[WooTast]

IMHO, whether one can solo a heroic mob given 30+ minutes is irrelevant.  Doing that may be "fun" for some, but it has no rational relationship to game balance, which is what this discussion is all about.   <div></div>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WooTastic wrote:<BR>IMHO, whether one can solo a heroic mob given 30+ minutes is irrelevant.  Doing that may be "fun" for some, but it has no rational relationship to game balance, which is what this discussion is all about.   <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, my point was that we can not only do some nice targeted dps in the right group makeup (and remember, mages are far from the only ones who benefit from our procs)  but that we can also, while not having much trouble milling through like-leveled solo content, take on heroic content others can't.  Which makes asking to be substantially improved as soloists look more like selfishness.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[NighthawkX]

<P>I love fighting multiples over singles, it goes so much easier for me, We have a bunch of aoe abilities added with aria are great.  As for soloing I have never had that much of a problem but if you are expecting to take down groups of 1 ups sorry that isn't a solo encounter thats heroic and any class that can manage it would have to do tons of work as well, or take severe risks of dieing do to resists etc.  When soloing predators and rogues loose alot of there damage because they can't get in all the positionals, we don't have nearly that many that require stealth or positional so usually we can get them off when they come up with our stun, where the others can get off a couple but not all of them.  </P> <P>And as far as grouping this is one of the reason I hate the parsers because people take there numbers so personal and its not accurate.  We add so much damage to a group, and in a caster heavy group I dare say figure in all we can do and we are well above other scouts, yes you need the right situation but heh thats part of the game.  If your looking for the ow wow look at me factor go play an assassin and than maybe you will realize sure you get that effect once in a while but in the long run you aren't adding that much.</P> <P>I solo fine and I have nothing special treasured, legendary mostly and all adept 1's except trainer choices. If you are expecting the big huge solo kills get over it thats not us, unless like some say you want to kite forever.  And just because you may find a class that can do it or a person who can a vast majority can not.</P> <P>Also bruisers are same tier, monks are one tier lower they are not same damage wise bruisers do more than monks but monks have better(more reliable defensive skills).  Bruisers may parse higher than you while grouping but that doesn't mean they are adding more damage to the group and its why I hate people useing parsers and taking them as gospel.</P>