One hand + sheild vs 2 weild parses.

[Naginata]

Since there were some old posts for assassings and Swashbucklers showing that under certain circumstances 1 handed with sheild could out DPS 2 weild I decided to run some tests on a troubadour since much of our DPS is from our 2 nukes and we get no poisons with massive damage that can give 2 weild a bonus. In short those tests showed that without poisons if you use specials constantly 1 handed is more DPS, if you let auto attack do your work 2 weps are preferable. If anyone wants the txt file send me a message with your e-mail and I can send you them both. Since you cannot test something without making sure you have equiv items for both tests (i.e. don't use 2 ebon imbued leafblades and compare to a fulg longsword) I had my local smith make me 2 of the slowest hitting 2 weild fulginate weps (leafblade) and one of the slowest hitting one handers (spear). I used a cedar roundsheild. I started with 0 exp into 45 and turned exp off before hitting level 45.1 so that the whole run would have the same skills. I used The Hideout in splitpaw for my test since I can get identically scaled mobs, repeat it as often as I wanted (4 tiems each of the setups) and they are so easy to solo as a scout. I used the same buff songs and clicky rings each time as well. I used teh statalyzer (availanble at teh scout sanctuary) to parse the data, and went through the log by hand to get anything it didn't give a total on. The data is for 161 fights. Each fight I did the exact same thing in the exact same order. No HOs at all. Pull with Osmotic, denons, gnoll master, elegant, sandra's, shrill then thund, then press whatever poppes up as it came up. I did this with the nostromo pad so that when I press the01 key it triggers hotkeys 1-6 in order, that way it always triggersthe first thing that is ready and I can be sure I am always doing the same thing. I also used a proc buff so the effect of 2 weps vs 1 on proc damage could be seen. Since the total fight numbers for repeating what I killed 4 times only varied by 1 mob (one extra in the 2 weild) and the total damage dealt is only 16 points different, you can assume these tests are pretty consistant. 2 Leafblades. 57.24 DPS. 38508 total damage recieved 153700 total damage dealt 1 handed spear and sheild. 68.27 DPS 35931 total damage recieved 153684 total damage dealt So, for a lvl 45 troubadour comparing equiv items, One hand and a sheild is clearly better. Not only more DPS but significantly less damage taken. I did 19% more damage per second with a one hander, and recieved 7.1% less damage. I think this is good news, save your money and buy one ebon sword and a cedar sheild rather than 2 ebon weps. Anyone want to try in a group where you can Backstab? Takes a few hours to get the data though. <div></div>

[Shadowstryd]

<DIV>I personally use the bard shield and a 1 hander at this time whenever im raiding due to the increase to ballads skill effectivley making me 1 level higher when casting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Something</EM> you may want to do though with your parse testing is look at DPS without using styles. Style damage will not change if your using 2 weapons or 1. Damage when using styles is based on the spell its self. DPS will cahnge if your just swinging without any spells at all. Thats where you will see the DPS modifier on the weapons kick in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Naginata]

All that data is separated out. The old parse that I referred to did pure auto attack as well and foudn that when thats all you do 2 weild is slightly better. Add in high damage  poisons and it is a clear winner. But we don't have poisons and except in very very long fights very few of us are leaning back and letting auto attack do the work. I think what the big change is from the auto attack with the 1 hander. The 2 weild hit for an average of 50 per hit (max 200) and hit 170% more often than the 1 hander.  while the 1 hander hit for an average of 66 (max 19<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the big difference seen is most likely the mob going down faster and less healing becasue a large chunk at once is more likely to kill a healer than 2 small hits. With the 2 weild  the fight gets dragged out longer, your timers get shut off waiting to refresh and you lose effective DPS while you just melee. Looking at the data the fights with 2 weild took 18.91% longer on average than the 1 hander. That extra time accounts for the 19% increase in DPS for a one hander. So the 1 hander kills faster, and the sheild allows you to take ~7% less damage. I may do another round where I only do auto attack, but I am not doing another 160 fights for that. If soemone else has all day free...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Naginata]

Oh and yeah, with the harmony sheild I don't think anyone can ever argue what to use <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I need one of those. <div></div>

[MMThunda]

Yep, I've suspected that for a while but I've been too lazy to parse it out. If you are spamming CAs as soon as they come up, it doesn't matter very much what your weapons are because you will rarely be swinging them. Plus, if you are using a one hander, your ripostes will do more damage and you can riposte even while in the middle of activating a CA or spell. The slight bit of extra avoidance that a shield gives you can be handy too (or the good deal of extra avoidance if you happen to have a shield with +agi). If you are in a drawn out fight or are conserving power, you will end up using straight melee attacks more and CAs less. If you parse that out you should come up with dual wielding being a clear winner in overall DPS. <div></div>

[thorvang]

one thing i noticed is, that my troub sometimes blocks wrath of fury with his shield. i never saw him riposting it (thus sometimes avoiding it), is this even possible?

[Sa'meria]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowstryder wrote:<BR> <DIV>I personally use the <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>bard shield</STRONG> </FONT>and a 1 hander at this time whenever im raiding due to the increase to ballads skill effectivley making me 1 level higher when casting.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Is this shield the fabled one with Dirge and Troubador mods on it?? or a different one?<BR>

[thorvang]

i think he refered to uktrl's round shield of harmony with +5 ballads/dirges.

[MorDeca]

Speaking of that shield... anyone with it notice any real difference to song potency while wearing?  Curious on what exactly it adds....

[bartuctheshadow]

<DIV>It only enhances the skills that use ballads, such as Sandra's Befuddling Incursion and Taffo's Dazzling Ditty. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of, if not all of our group buffs run off of ordination. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sa'meria wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Shadowstryder wrote: <div>I personally use the <font color="#ffff00"><strong>bard shield</strong> </font>and a 1 hander at this time whenever im raiding due to the increase to ballads skill effectivley making me 1 level higher when casting.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Is this shield the fabled one with Dirge and Troubador mods on it?? or a different one? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah thats teh one he uses. For the parse I just used a cedar roundshield since I am teh sux and don't have the good one <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>MMThundarr wrote:Yep, I've suspected that for a while but I've been too lazy to parse it out. If you are spamming CAs as soon as they come up, it doesn't matter very much what your weapons are because you will rarely be swinging them. Plus, if you are using a one hander, your ripostes will do more damage and you can riposte even while in the middle of activating a CA or spell. The slight bit of extra avoidance that a shield gives you can be handy too (or the good deal of extra avoidance if you happen to have a shield with +agi). If you are in a drawn out fight or are conserving power, you will end up using straight melee attacks more and CAs less. If you parse that out you should come up with dual wielding being a clear winner in overall DPS. <div></div><hr></blockquote>7% less damage for the ceddar sheils was [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] nice. For the drawn out fights I stil lhave my 2 old weps in my bag. can switch out when needed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] attunable crap. </span><div></div>

[Shadowstryd]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>It only enhances the skills that use ballads, such as Sandra's Befuddling Incursion and Taffo's Dazzling Ditty. </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Most of, if not all of our group buffs run off of ordination. </EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your correct it is + to ballads.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thing is though that spells that use other skills even ones that use oridnation will con diffrently when you equip the shield.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swan Song for instance goes from Orange to Yellow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[MorDeca]

Interesting...  I'm assuming Swan Song stays the same regardless.  Then what exactly is the benefit of this shield?  I've seen 2 drop, but have refrained from bidding on them since I really can't see any sort of benefit from it.  +5 ballads sounds cool, but as previously stated, all of our buffs use ordination.  What's the point?

[bartuctheshadow]

they do con different however only the skills that use ballads will change (sadly the buffs are not included)

[Shadowstryd]

<DIV>Ill have to do some testing on this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me and my guildmate both have master 1 swan song. I have the bard shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If all buffs are based off ordination and troub one is grouped with another troub and casts swan song and buffs my ordination buy 11.. Then buy your statement since buffs  use ordination skill not ballads all my buffs should scale 2 levels higher when I cast mine but they dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also just another FYI..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 Trobs with swan -  master 1..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the first troub casts his and does not have bard shield -  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The troub with the bard shield can cast his and effectly remove the first troubadors because it cons yellow to him and not orange.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the toub without bard shield trys to cast his swan song while the troub with the bard shield has swan up he will get - "will not take effect message". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This shows that even though its lised as ordination for mastery - ballads is still what determins the level of the spell not ordination.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like another /bug to send in with the countless others.</DIV>

[bartuctheshadow]

<DIV>Ballads before the update used to determine our lvl but now they are using "troubador" to determine it while still using ballads on the shiled. The shield does make you one lvl higher with the +5 to balads but the shiled should actually give 1 lvl to troubador if you get what im saying. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This just proves that SOE doesnt check enough stuff before they put it live :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It should make all your spells 1 lvl higher but it only effects sandra's an</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>d taffo's from my experience</DIV>

[Calthine]

Thanks for the excellent data.  My PGT just went blue on me anyway, time to make a Cedar Round Shield <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:Thanks for the excellent data.  My PGT just went blue on me anyway, time to make a Cedar Round Shield <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Get a pristine imbued one. that extra 1 DPS can't hurt from the nuke <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[thorvang]

<blockquote><hr>MorDecaio wrote:Interesting... I'm assuming Swan Song stays the same regardless.<hr></blockquote>swan song ad3 goes from +9 to +10 with the shield equipped. so do most spells

[windse]

<DIV>I use a 1hander and sheild all the time.</DIV> <DIV>That being said there are times that haveing duel weilds up is better. Here are some examples..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With two 1.2 duel's up and dael's dance of blades the interupt chance on target is doubled. This spell does work on Epics.</DIV> <DIV>If you add in proc's you add x2 the chance of those. Guess it just depends on what you are doing.</DIV> <DIV>If you are a Troubador and grouped with a dirge and a fury duel weild is the way to go esp if you use procing weps/bow and the potion Torrent of the Ages(25% chance to do initial poison damage of 300ish and a dot..9 hour buff btw)</DIV> <DIV>In this setup dps can go over 200 on a regular basis and a one hander will most likely not.</DIV> <DIV>One last side note on interups. Most melee procs seem to add a chance to the interupt factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the question should be...</DIV> <DIV>1. Does the target have any highly volitile non special(power based) attacks that need to be interupted?</DIV> <DIV>2. What is the group makeup?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Windsend </DIV> <DIV>50 Troubador/Guk</DIV>

[windse]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naginataka wrote:<BR>But we don't have poisons and except in very very long fights very few of us are leaning back and letting auto attack do the work.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Check out Torrent of the Ages. 25% chance to proc 300ish initial poision damage+dot. Lasts 9 hours and i was so happy when i saw this the first time on the broker.(Just dont try to use this and mez at the same time.)</P> <P>Windsend</P> <P>50 Troubador/Guk</P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Kieran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naginataka wrote:<BR>2 Leafblades. <BR><BR>57.24 DPS. <BR>38508 total damage recieved<BR>153700 total damage dealt<BR><BR>1 handed spear and sheild.<BR><BR>68.27 DPS<BR>35931 total damage recieved<BR>153684 total damage dealt<BR><BR><BR>So, for a lvl 45 troubadour comparing equiv items, One hand and a sheild is clearly better. Not only more DPS but significantly less damage taken.<BR><BR>I did 19% more damage per second with a one hander, and recieved 7.1% less damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Since you did more dps with the onehander, I'd reckon the fight lasted shorter? Which, shield or not, ought to mean less damage taken. Can you calculate "Damage taken per second" (dtps)? Hang on, I could probably extract it from your numbers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dual Wield time = damage dealt / dps = 153700 / 57.24 = 2685s</DIV> <DIV>Dual Wield dtps = damage take / time = 38508 / 2685 = 14.34 dtps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>S/S time = damage dealt / dps = 153684 / 68.27 = 2251s</DIV> <DIV>S/S dtps = damage take / time = 35931 / 2251 = 15.96 dtps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aha! So in fact you took 11% <STRONG>more</STRONG> damage per second when using a shield! Is this a measurement error? Does dual wield affect parry?</DIV></DIV>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>windsend wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Naginataka wrote:But we don't have poisons and except in very very long fights very few of us are leaning back and letting auto attack do the work. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Check out Torrent of the Ages. 25% chance to proc 300ish initial poision damage+dot. Lasts 9 hours and i was so happy when i saw this the first time on the broker.(Just dont try to use this and mez at the same time.)</p> <p>Windsend</p> <p>50 Troubador/Guk</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I may do a test on that as well, but blessing of the ages is a bug since when they changed its name and function on the 21st they accidentally changes its req for use to magical. So although it has lasted 20 days, I wouldn't count on it being around for too long. Frizznik seems to be on vacation since he hasn't posted in 2 weeks though and it is summertime. Although I wouldn't be suprised to find out the Devs haven't noticed the bug and the tanks that are buying up the poisons. Seen the bruisers using it yet? Disgusting damage! Again poisons and procs should do less damage on bards than assassins for example because all our specials are not melee and our nukes take up time we could be swinging and are not procing.. Anyway, what is the damage per tic of Torrent of the ages? You can estimate the additional DPS pretty easily based on total fight time, average time per kill etc.  If you assume that the very first strike on every single target (not encounter) triggers the proc that would bring 2 weild nearly up to base 1 hand DPS. The dot would push it over. But the one hander witht he same conditions would jump up as well. So anyway, I don't know the exact numbers but I know that the other t5 large damage up front poison does 39 per tic, so I will use 39 per tic and 300 damage for the initial hit. If anyone posts the exact numbers I will change these. Since we know that the Damage procs 1 out of 4 times, and I know how many swings per fight and total and the average time for each kill. We can figure on average the wep will proc on the 2.5th swing. The initial would add just under 9.1 average DPS, the DOT would add an average of 5.6 DPS. So, for 2 hand we get a theoretical bonus of 14.7 DPS. With 1 handed we can do the same thing and because the fights are shorter the initial damage would add ~10.7 DPS and the DOT would add an average of 5.39 DPS. So we have a teoretical of 16.09 added. Now, are therse numbers right? No, they would both be higher because the extra damage would reduce the fight time. this extra DPS would shorten each of thier fights about 20% or a little less (since you may lose DOT tics) The question is would the amount of time saved with 2 weps be significant enough to overcome what is now over 10 DPS difference? The 2 weild would still have to not only match the % reduction in speed which it does, but increase the kill speed by another 20%. If you can get gnoll killing down to an average of under 20 seconds with 2 weps using a poison you can match the theoretical level. The more I think about it the more I believe SOE set it up this way on purpose. Remember when the game launched and everyone was freaking out because troubadours recieved a 1 hander for their class quest at 20? Maybe they were trying to give us a hint that this class is different. Makes me want to see large sample parses of other scout classes now though... </span><div></div>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kieran wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Naginataka wrote:2 Leafblades. 57.24 DPS. 38508 total damage recieved153700 total damage dealt1 handed spear and sheild.68.27 DPS35931 total damage recieved153684 total damage dealtSo, for a lvl 45 troubadour comparing equiv items, One hand and a sheild is clearly better. Not only more DPS but significantly less damage taken.I did 19% more damage per second with a one hander, and recieved 7.1% less damage. <hr> </blockquote> <div>Since you did more dps with the onehander, I'd reckon the fight lasted shorter? Which, shield or not, ought to mean less damage taken. Can you calculate "Damage taken per second" (dtps)? Hang on, I could probably extract it from your numbers...</div> <div> </div> <div>Dual Wield time = damage dealt / dps = 153700 / 57.24 = 2685s</div> <div>Dual Wield dtps = damage take / time = 38508 / 2685 = 14.34 dtps</div> <div> </div> <div> <div>S/S time = damage dealt / dps = 153684 / 68.27 = 2251s</div> <div>S/S dtps = damage take / time = 35931 / 2251 = 15.96 dtps</div> <div> </div> <div>Aha! So in fact you took 11% <strong>more</strong> damage per second when using a shield! Is this a measurement error? Does dual wield affect parry?</div></div><hr></blockquote>I hadn't thought to do that. Very nice catch. I just looked at the numbes and added them by calculator for each encounter and they came out 38508 and 35931. I would say this looks like an interesting bug. Mitigation stays the same but avoidance raises with a sheild, and parry also adds to your avoidance not mitigation.  With the sedar sheild I should be avoiding ~5% more of the attacks than without and the Dtps should be lower.</span><span> And its not like these mobs varied in  level or makeup, it was the same zone same scale 8 times. Is sheild avoidance broken? Wonder if there is a chance for a dev comment on that.</span><div></div>

[windse]

<P>Torrent of the Ages</P> <P>25%</P> <P>inflicts 348 damage</P> <P>inflicts 57 damage</P> <P>decreases health of target by  57 damage every 6 second</P> <P>Exact description </P> <P> </P> <P>Windsend </P> <P>50 Troubador/Guk</P>

[The Bloodsnow]

<P>I have gone to the Shield of Harmony and a Prismatic Long Sword just recently myself after duelwielding for the most part through my career.</P> <P> </P> <P>One thing I did take note of, I parsed alot in my mid 40's and I found that when I spammed my combat abilities (especially the nukes) my dps would actually drop a notch or two as opposed to just letting auto attack do its work.  As well as that going from a fabled duel wield, to a simple treasured 1h'r that I didn't lose much dps with auto attack only. That was duel wieding, I haven't parsed anything recently so I don't know if that changes for 1h/Shield.</P> <P> </P> <P>My main theory on that is that most of our combat attacks have a power drain, and from what I can tell have a much reduced base damage compaired to other scouts and so when we use those abilities, we do create faster initial damage, but we also reduce our top out damage over time.  Again I haven't parsed this, but I plan to soon.</P>

[MorDeca]

<span><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:<blockquote><hr>MorDecaio wrote:Interesting... I'm assuming Swan Song stays the same regardless.<hr></blockquote>swan song ad3 goes from +9 to +10 with the shield equipped. so do most spells<hr></blockquote> Um... wow.  I have Master I of that.  +12 would be rediculous, since its +11 now.  Did Raxxl's, Chorus, or Concerto go up at all?  I doubt Bria's would, since I think that's just a static value for the song. I'm really really curious now on some pre and post shield stats on all of our songs, adept 3 or higher.  Care to post some comparative info?</span><div></div>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>windsend wrote:<p>Torrent of the Ages</p> <p>25%</p> <p>inflicts 348 damage</p> <p>inflicts 57 damage</p> <p>decreases health of target by  57 damage every 6 second</p> <p>Exact description </p> <p>Windsend </p> <p>50 Troubador/Guk</p><hr></blockquote>So just multiply the esitmates by 1.16 for the direct damage, and 1.46 for the DOT. So for 2 W - 10.6 DPS + 8.2 DPS for 18.8 bonus 1 hand - 12.4 DPS +  7.6 DPS for 20 bonus So even using bugged torrent of ages its unlikely to have any chance at matching 1 handers with equiv weps.</span><div></div>

[windse]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naginataka wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> windsend wrote:<BR> <P>Torrent of the Ages</P> <P>25%</P> <P>inflicts 348 damage</P> <P>inflicts 57 damage</P> <P>decreases health of target by  57 damage every 6 second</P> <P>Exact description </P> <P> </P> <P>Windsend </P> <P>50 Troubador/Guk</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So just multiply the esitmates by 1.16 for the direct damage, and 1.46 for the DOT.<BR><BR>So for 2 W - 10.6 DPS + 8.2 DPS for 18.8 bonus<BR><BR>1 hand - 12.4 DPS +  7.6 DPS for 20 bonus<BR><BR>So even using bugged torrent of ages its unlikely to have any chance at matching 1 handers with equiv weps.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you add a fury and a dirge it will change considerably.</P> <P>Dont  forget about our interupt buff though <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Windsend </P> <P>50 Troubador/Guk<BR></P>

[Naginata]

Try a fury and dirge will raise them both, but will it raise 2 weild so much and 1 handed so little that it will pass them? I doubt it, but it is possible, we are just talking about a 10+ spread before the extra buffs, if 1 handed only gained 5 DPS from the buffs 2 weild would have to gain 15 or more just to be even. And since 2 weps were hitting 170% the amount of a 1 hander, that extra amount 70% would have to make a huge difference. <div></div>

[thorvang]

<blockquote><hr>MorDecaio wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:<blockquote><hr>MorDecaio wrote:Interesting... I'm assuming Swan Song stays the same regardless.<hr></blockquote>swan song ad3 goes from +9 to +10 with the shield equipped. so do most spells<hr></blockquote> Um... wow. I have Master I of that. +12 would be rediculous, since its +11 now. Did Raxxl's, Chorus, or Concerto go up at all? I doubt Bria's would, since I think that's just a static value for the song. I'm really really curious now on some pre and post shield stats on all of our songs, adept 3 or higher. Care to post some comparative info?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>arcane concerto ad3 goes from 668 vs. to 691 vs., stat songs increases by 1 ^^, so do self buffs like daeli's.manasong and invigorating don't increase in any way. dmg should go up, though i never really parsed it to compare.so the main purpose for this shield is the swan song enhancement.

[Herbnos]

<DIV>To throw some "monkey wrenches" in the mix (sorry, just things I can think of but can't answer, and want to hear from you all)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Even though the shield adds avoidance, it might not be adding that much because of the funny math involved with stat increases.  I was fooling around with my AGI and my avoidance was like 68.9% or something... but when I moused over to the breakdown, the numbers actually added up to over 100%... that was without a shield.  Obviously there's a function with avoidance involved here somewhere, and once you reach a certain point it doesn't count the same way, I just don't know anything about it beyond that.  So... I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, except that the shield is likely only benefitting mitigation and not avoidance, depending on your AGI and what songs you are running of course.  The shield will help the avoidance somewhat (although lower than expected), but compared to the AGI on a replacement dual wield weapon in that spot, they could be the same.  Not really sure though, something for people to test if they want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. The test with the slowest items made from the same material was good.  But should it be considered that dual-wielding two fabled items could provide more DPS than a fabled one hander and a fabled shield?  I'm just thinking that I've seen so many dual wield weapons with huge + to both AGI and STR, that unless you had a shield with those kinds of bonuses, the dual wielding might be preferable?  I don't know the math on DPS or stat return after the soft cap, I'm just throwing out thoughts here.</DIV>

[Claritin]

<DIV>I have teh bard shield and the fact that it procs when you it someone helps boost the DPS or at least compensate for the lost DPS of a DW weap in that hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one thing I have thought about alot is what I might be missing when I use it (besides the fact I was a dummy and got a DW prismatic....)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poisons are not the only procs... buffs have procs also.  with procs if they have a "static" proc rate that does not change with the delay of a weap low delay 2 handers would be the way to go.  Fury has ALOT of procs... We have a proc song we don't use a whole lot because our self buff has it's own proc....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah... remember that proc?  Daeli's Dance of Blades.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/Daelis%20Dance%20of%20Blades%20-%20Adept%201.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10% chance stifle... I know it fires ALOT because it drains mana (or atleast used to I hear the complaints less now) when it procs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So at first I was like "Hmm... shield has a proc to compensate for lost DPS... it has boosts to my songs etc I should use this when raiding a lot"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then I started wondering... what procs did I cut back... and I saw that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Stifle looking back at me from my hotkey bar... and it was whispering "use me..... UUUUUSSSSSEEEE MMMMEEEEE" So I swapped back in 2 DW weaps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I quit parsing like 4 mths ago... back when I got morbidly depressed at the fact everyone including priests out DPS'd me.... so for those of you that are crunching the numbers... how many stifle-procs did you lose?</DIV>

[Kieran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbnosis wrote:<BR> <DIV>To throw some "monkey wrenches" in the mix (sorry, just things I can think of but can't answer, and want to hear from you all)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Even though the shield adds avoidance, it might not be adding that much because of the funny math involved with stat increases.  I was fooling around with my AGI and my avoidance was like 68.9% or something... but when I moused over to the breakdown, the numbers actually added up to over 100%... that was without a shield.  Obviously there's a function with avoidance involved here somewhere, and once you reach a certain point it doesn't count the same way, I just don't know anything about it beyond that.  So... I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, except that the shield is likely only benefitting mitigation and not avoidance, depending on your AGI and what songs you are running of course.  The shield will help the avoidance somewhat (although lower than expected), but compared to the AGI on a replacement dual wield weapon in that spot, they could be the same.  Not really sure though, something for people to test if they want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think I've nailed this one down. The different avoidance numbers are listed in the order they are calculated. Let's make a hypothetical example where I have 50% base avoidance, 50% block and 50% parry. That might look like I am avoiding all attacks (from a mob of my level, as the description says, whatever that takes into consideration). But, this is how a hit is calculated:</DIV> <OL> <LI>The hit is rolled against the base avoidance. This means that I avoid 50% of all hits.</LI> <LI>If the hits passes the base avoidance it is checked against the block. I avoid another 50% of these hits, i.e 75% of all hits.</LI> <LI>Once again, if the hit passes the block avoidance, it is checked against parry. I avoid 50% of all hits with parry, i.e 87.5% of all hits. Not 150%.</LI></OL> <P>I still haven't remembered to see if my parry avoidance is altered when dual wielding compared to using a onehander, but I'll get around to that any year now.</P>

[Naginata]

<span><blockquote><hr>Claritin wrote:<div>I have teh bard shield and the fact that it procs when you it someone helps boost the DPS or at least compensate for the lost DPS of a DW weap in that hand.</div> <div> </div> <div>HOWEVER </div> <div> </div> <div>one thing I have thought about alot is what I might be missing when I use it (besides the fact I was a dummy and got a DW prismatic....)</div> <div> </div> <div>Poisons are not the only procs... buffs have procs also.  with procs if they have a "static" proc rate that does not change with the delay of a weap low delay 2 handers would be the way to go.  Fury has ALOT of procs... We have a proc song we don't use a whole lot because our self buff has it's own proc....</div> <div> </div> <div>Oh yeah... remember that proc?  Daeli's Dance of Blades.....</div> <div> </div> <div><img src="http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/Daelis%20Dance%20of%20Blades%20-%20Adept%201.JPG"></div> <div> </div> <div>10% chance stifle... I know it fires ALOT because it drains mana (or atleast used to I hear the complaints less now) when it procs.</div> <div> </div> <div>So at first I was like "Hmm... shield has a proc to compensate for lost DPS... it has boosts to my songs etc I should use this when raiding a lot"</div> <div> </div> <div>Then I started wondering... what procs did I cut back... and I saw that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Stifle looking back at me from my hotkey bar... and it was whispering "use me..... UUUUUSSSSSEEEE MMMMEEEEE" So I swapped back in 2 DW weaps.</div> <div> </div> <div>I quit parsing like 4 mths ago... back when I got morbidly depressed at the fact everyone including priests out DPS'd me.... so for those of you that are crunching the numbers... how many stifle-procs did you lose?</div><hr></blockquote>Its an interrupt not a stifle. If it were a stifle I think every bard would be using the  lowest delay  2 weilders and  only using auto attacks. And you should do 17 concertations for every 10 you do with 1 hander. I had this song running for these tests and other than the 25% DPS increase it didn't seem to play a huge factor. As for the DTPT form what a few people ahve said and PMed me, I think that what we are probbaly seeing is the fact that because 1 hander fights are shorter, the mob has not used all of their CAs yet or are just finishing them up before waiting on recycle timer. In a longer fight the mob will run out of CAs until they recycle and the mob's DPS will dramatically decrease. the only way to really test this would be if someone engaged a mob with a healer and just let it beat on them for a long time with a sheild, then ran away and repeated this a few times. Maybe 10 minutes of beating per test with 3 tests. So an hour total.</span><div></div>

[Pealz999]

Well I havent been able to test this out like most of you. But I use 2 weps, My toons name is "Sefariz" if you want to see what the weps are. I find they do very well. Anyways I have been away for the past 4 months and wont make it back for a few more months so I was wondering what are the new things going on for a Troub.

[Herbnos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kieran wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbnosis wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>blah blah blah about avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think I've nailed this one down. The different avoidance numbers are listed in the order they are calculated. Let's make a hypothetical example where I have 50% base avoidance, 50% block and 50% parry. That might look like I am avoiding all attacks (from a mob of my level, as the description says, whatever that takes into consideration). But, this is how a hit is calculated:</DIV> <OL> <LI>The hit is rolled against the base avoidance. This means that I avoid 50% of all hits.</LI> <LI>If the hits passes the base avoidance it is checked against the block. I avoid another 50% of these hits, i.e 75% of all hits.</LI> <LI>Once again, if the hit passes the block avoidance, it is checked against parry. I avoid 50% of all hits with parry, i.e 87.5% of all hits. Not 150%.</LI></OL> <P>I still haven't remembered to see if my parry avoidance is altered when dual wielding compared to using a onehander, but I'll get around to that any year now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That seems like a sound theory.  I'll have to check my numbers and see if you're right.</DIV>