Troub DPS

[Maddcovv]

<DIV>My wife plays a 39 Troub. tonight the tank in our group was nagging her becasue her dps was low, Where should a 39 troub dps rank in a group?  Can anyone post their damage and dps logs?  She is trying but I'm a mystic and I don't know what to tell her she should be using to be more effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maddcovv</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV>

[texwood]

<DIV>Well, to be honest : Troubador DPS sucks , but</DIV> <DIV>we're supposed to be buffers mainly.</DIV> <DIV>I can buff the HP of each group member by about 500 at lvl 30. Not too bad.</DIV> <DIV>Plus STR and AGI buffs etc.</DIV> <DIV>People in a group should consider that.</DIV> <DIV>Not only DPS counts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again Moorgaard made a statement , which says</DIV> <DIV>Scouts DPS will be reviewed to ensure it's better than fighter DPS.</DIV> <DIV>Still Troub will be the lowest DPS scout class , which is ok in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=32446" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=32446</A></DIV> <DIV>(scroll down a bit)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No idea when this will happen though...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edited typo</DIV> <P>Message Edited by texwood on <SPAN class=date_text>03-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:16 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by texwood on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:18 AM</span>

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

Unless her DPS is bottom of the pile (behind priests) I wouldn't be too concerned. I usually rank about 4th or 5th, behind the other scouts, mages and even the fighters (which should not be the case, but is being addressed as stated above). If I concentrate on doing just damage (which I don't, I usually concentrate on debuffs/buffs, power draining and some crowd control) I can out damage the fighters of equal levels, <EM>unless</EM> they too are concentrating on damage in which case they seem to be about the same or often better. Part of the reason DPS is low for troubadors could be the longish cast times of our higher damage attacks, but the nagging tank should remember that the presence of a troubador in the group can improve the damage dealt by the group enough to compensate for the troubador doing less damage than other melee classes. If we were doing DPS that was closer to that of rogues and predators, that wouldn't be very fair on them considering we have some of the best group buffs of any subclass. :smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by WorldsAway_Nybor on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:25 AM</span>

[IKS_Nels]

<DIV>I my experiance we fall inbertween poor fighters and good clerics, watching my combat stats closely tonight and spotted the grps warden 1 lvl higher then me doing 4-600 more damage then myself and he did 200 more then the tank,:smileysurprised: at 38th lvl I would expect to out damage a healer by a considerable margin,:smileysad:but the warden class seem to be the only one able to do that, thankfully otherwise id probably get booted from grps very quickly.</DIV> <DIV>As for comparing Troubadors to the other scout classes Dirges do slightly more damage, and rangers and swashys do far more damage from twice as much to three times depending on the players skill. </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rultrov]

Troubadors/Bards aren't really meant to be dps for such reasons as our buffs, and we do not have access to the poisons(even though it was said we would originally) that help the other scout classes. I have only started to reach noticeable dps from myself now that I have received raid-mob weapons. But all groups I am in notice one thing when I leave the group; the average group dps DROPS a substantial amount. I've seen guild chat of the tanks complaining about how the group kills so slow without me that they're gonna leave. Now my extra 70-80 dps by myself doesn't do much but the amount I add to the <i><b>dps of my group members</b></i> does. You'll find if people don't commonly group with bards they won't; but you will also find that if you find people who've grouped with bards they'll love you and you'll always have a spot in their groups - unless you just plain suck. <div></div>

[Jordinn]

<P>Heya Maddcovv,</P> <P>Yeah I agree with what's being said here, we're not a "read the logs and see raw dps" kind of class, but if you parse logs of the group with us, then again without, you'll see that our DPS is by helping them do more DPS, not by doing it ourselves.  We are roughly ranked in the low fighter - high priest area (as was stated above) and that varies by how much we buff in combat (casting time take out damage), what song we play (ie we do better DPS with Kian's playing, but we lose buffing), and so forth.</P> <P>If you have specific questions or she does, feel free to look me up on Perma and we can talk or do some comparisons.</P>

[IKS_Nels]

<P>But considering how low our DPS is on par with clerics or slightly above, this may be the major problem that lower lvl Troubadors have been complaing about, being unable to solo mobs between your 20s and 30s I was 23rd lvl when they made the Agi nerf and struggled from then till 30, mobs were hitting us so hard and we could not take them on head to head, I could do a 800 to 1000 damage in the combat, and the mobs in TS would double that against me, efectively killing me before i can take them to 50% health (white con mobs) whilst I would watch Tanks and healers Solo with out breking a sweat, very disapointed in this at the time but I adapted, and started kiteing mobs using pircing shreak and a bow till the mob was down to 30% of its health then go in for the kill, the only problem with this was a tank or healer could kill 3 simuler mobs in the same time. the benefits tanks have is obvious their armour and HP for the cleric simple they are able to heal them selves as they go with armour of varing types "same DPS as scout but able to heal their damage" it couldn't get much worse could it but the new avoidance rating is now avalible on the personal stats window and it shows we scouts have the same rating as clerics and tanks! no wonder we perform so badly as a solo class at low lvls we get hit and hit hard! the damage we do is to low to compensate for this....</P> <P>only compensation we get at later lvls is some dodgy songs and their effects but some do help greatly with you ability to solo just want more. but with all the practace ive had with kiteing I can some times take on yellow grp mobs from 35 onwards takes me 20+ minuets to kill them but /shrug better then nothing.</P> <P>life gets better as you lvl</P>

[Milost]

<DIV>I'd have to agree with everyone else.  The troubador is not a standalone dps class but our benefit is that we make any group a dps group.  I am always on the same level of dps as the fighters of the group and in some occasions secondary or primary healers focusing solely on dealing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that said, one of the main beefs I have with our low end dps is just our skill selection.  The Dissenting Cantata and Eli's Thundering Hymn lines are very hard to use with any repetition.  Long cast times and high resist rates but they are a pair of our highest damaging attacks and yet not a real benefit over getting the extra hits in from pure melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've come into the practice of only using 3 special attacks really and this was through the 30s, am 40 now.  Anything else is just used to advance or finish an HO.  It's a thin line to walk though, because I know the dirges are our dps counterpart and rightly, they should have the better damage skills.  As long as our songs do bring some benefit to the group, I'm not as worred about the dps factor.</DIV>

[Hunter]

I'm betting that tank was not a monk or bruiser, if it was they would have been super happy to have you no matter what your DPS was. I have played ever class and many sub classes and the first time I really noticed what the bard was doing was when I was playing my level 25ish warden, the thing was his AC was so low when the bard {either dirge ot troub} joined it jumped up 500! From then on I wanted a bard class when I could get one. Now back to what I was saying about monks, my main is one and they do super great when a bard joins thier group, heck any class does for that matter. These parsers kinda bug me though because I don't think some classes should be judged by what DPS they are doing. Some classes are meant to make others fight much better and do less damage by themselves so why blame them if they are not doing as much as super DPS man. I play a bard and chanter as well, this is another class that helps the group and has bad DPS, but this class also helps the group fight longer, hit faster and lots more, hmm sounds kinda like a bard to me. Oh I never post much on these forums but I do read them a ton, but I don't like people saying bards{be that troubadors or dirges} are bad in this way. If that tank gets mad about your low DPS tell him you are mad about his crap buffs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Turil Decat Befallen <div></div>

[DankShasta]

<DIV>   I have a level 33 troubador. With Combat stats I can see my average DPS is around 48-50 on most targets, but with groups of 3 or more I average about 65-70 because if AoE's. The thing is with my buffs I increase the group average by about 8.2 per member!! So in a group of 6 thats 41 more Dps. So really that brings the group Dps of my Troubador to around 90-115 depending on MOB. Now alot of people dont know this. I have been going over my combat stat logs for weeks, and there is no class that can have this kinda effect on a party. We are <EM>the best grouped class period!!</EM> So hold your chins high Troubadors! Stick out your chests, walk tall!! At level 32-35 the average tank dps is gonna be mid 30's to maybe low 40's. Assasins and rangers are gonna go alot higher like around 55-65, and casters are gonna win at around 70-90 depending on class, but once they get aggro they are dead! Also the casters cant even begin to increase GROUP dps like we do, so the impact on a group is small, and when they start bombing Mobs they are still Aggro machines!!</DIV>

[aeio]

I would have found out what the tank was doing for DPS, then I would have stopped using any buffs on him/group and then revisit in the few minutes and ask him why his dps has dropped so much... Question him and badger him and ask him what he is doing wrong to see his dps to drop like that... Tell him to wake up and do his job. This is why information is often a dangerous thing.. If you don't know what it means, you are bound to mis-use it.  In this case the tank doesn't understand what troubadors do, so he is probably parsing damage and wondering why a troubador doesn't do damage like the assassin he had in the group earlier. Since he was not very polite about it, it is entirely appropriate it to embarass him and make him look foolish as his dps drops. <div></div>

[SGrim]

<div></div>In my experience, I usually fall just above a guardian most of the time but not always (it's really situational) and well below a berserker, brawler, any other scout, wizard/warlock or summoner. The way I think it should be is: wizard/warlock summoner/other scouts bards brawler/berserker guardian priests (yes, I know I left coercer/illusionist out.  I have no idea where they do or should fall because most of the ones I know have "rerolled as a useful class") We shouldn't be super high dps personally because that's not what we're about.  We aren't scouts and shouldn't compete with them.  We're only in the scout archetype because Sony had no other place to put us.  We're really the "jack of all trades" class in concept although I'm not really happy with Sony's implementation of it at this point because they went a little overboard with the "but master of none" part. Just remember that if you're using your buffs and debuff (don't let anyone tell you Discante is useless) wisely, you're increasing the dps of other melee classes in your group by 10% or more (while also reducing the damage the tank is taking).  Realistically, you can subtract that from their dps and add it to yours for comparison.  So given the following group (arbitrary numbers): Guardian - 60 dps You - 50 dps Monk - 70 dps Swashbuckler - 80 dps The reality of who is actually responsible for the dps goes something like: Guardian - 54 dps You - 71 dps Monk - 63 dps Swashbuckler - 72 dps In any case, feel free to have her send me a tell in-game.  I'm always happy to chat about different approaches to contributing to a group and since I'm level 40, I'm pretty much on par with what she's working with right now. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SGrim on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[SGrim]

While you're at it, don't forget to ask that tank why you have to tank half the mobs when he has a hotkey full of taunts. <div></div>

[thorvang]

if your guardian tank asks, why you're so low on dps... disable all buffs and ask him why he's gimped <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ismik]

That's someone who needs some education.  They don't understand what the Troubador does for the group.  The next time it happens (and it will happen) tell them that you can turn off your buffs and they can watch what happens to their OWN DPS if they would like.  Then when they say "Oh." you can say "And I bet you thought you were just really on your game tonight.  <LOL>" <div></div>

[eqbunn]

"if your guardian tank asks, why you're so low on dps... disable all buffs and ask him why he's gimped"                    rofl, yes I would advise just dont group with that tank, she/he is a [Removed for Content].                                                                                      Kaiya Glittermoon                                                                                       Guardian of Lucan Dlere <div></div>

[Xran]

I don't know if we are going to have more separate combat moves or combat songs are higher level... At L26, I can smash all my combat moves or songs faster than I can wait for them to cool down. The reuse timer on some of the combat moves can be quite ridiculous. I really want to continuously smash button to unleash dps, but the moves are so limited. Also, our dps is poor enough and our song-ranged-type damage has such long cast time it is such a pain. I really wish they would up our dps a little and reduce the cast time on the ranged damage. <div></div>

[Olod]

At level 42 in Cazic Thule I am getting between 59.4DPS if I don't really go for it and 74.1 if I try my *$%#&! off, without using sneak/attack skills. <div></div>

[Ailamy]

<DIV>Well i know at level 47 im dishing out 70 dps not trying and about 105-120 trying harder. But when someone says we have lowsy dps. Id say we increase the dps of the group about 30-40%. I know a guildy of mine was doing 170 dps and when i got into group he was dishing out 230 dps. Thats a pretty good increase.</DIV>

[Xran]

170 to 230? wow... very nice. 60dps more (LOL, which is really close to the base of we are doing) Seriously, as a Bard, we have to endure with our crappy personal dps, and crappy dps even as a scout compared to fighters. But then our group benefits are so huge that often Bards quit because they don't "shine" as much. That's why classes like Bards, Enchanters are lacking cos their personal glory is not very visible. I always try to teach players that don't know about Bard's usefulness. I always start giving hints -- to check their stats. When fighters/scouts see that their stats is up by more than +50, it is enough for them to go crazy about Bards. On top of that, our other buffs really make group members shine. We are the class that make other people shine...that's what I like about playing bard -- a never selfish class. <div></div>

[Kirma]

<P>use combatstats.com</P> <P>parse the dmg yourself</P> <P> </P> <P>Btw i've often out-dpsd monks / bruisers and swash lvl 50. by a good 3k</P>