Stacking of Stat buffs being Corrected!

[Crombie]

<DIV>After update # 5 we can no longer stack our stat buffs, so guess that just goes down as a fix or a nerf.. depending on how you look at it.  So.. whats your guys input?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~ Bink the Halfling, Troubador ~</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>---------------------------------------Edited--------------------------------------</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>End of Page 3, Blackguard states "<EM>The song stacking issue will be addressed in an upcoming hotfix</EM>."<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></P></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Crombie on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 AM</span>

[Shalwin]

<DIV>Looks like I'll never get past 42nd level now, been there since the beginning of Feb, and now I doubt I'll ever play the character again.</DIV>

[Kw]

I've taken all the other Troubador "fixes" in stride, but this one is crippling in my opinion. 

[Nevari]

I just seen it... I don't understand it... My input? I honestly don't know what to think... Buff stacking was kinda the last resort for me. I don't claim to be right with my point of view but as far I see it, we stuck with a even more broken class now. We gut hurt with the AGI nerf. We got hurt with the STR nerf. We can't any longer stack buffs. Many of our skills are broken or have minor to zero impact. Please tell me what is left? Seriously the nerfs hit us 6 times as hard as a full group of 6 benefited from the high amount of attribute buffs. After no longer. Still we were able to buff the STA pretty good and therefore the maximum health of a group. Good stuff. No longer. With the class issues and the strike with the nerf bat we didn't get ANY compensation so far. Please correct me if I miss a point. So far it seems I'm going to play a different class <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Crombie]

<DIV>I agree!  I feel less able to do much of anything now that our main focus on skills is toppled.. but I guess it was a matter of time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~ Bink</DIV>

[Windain]

<DIV>Doesn't hurt that bad, just play something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste line - 2 conc</DIV> <DIV>Songster's Luck line - 2 conc</DIV> <DIV>Stat buff - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV>Mana regen - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV>Proc line - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just need to find your favorite mix</DIV>

[Kw]

<P>"Bards are so happy, they just might write a song about it."</P> <P> </P> <P>Salt in the wound.</P>

[Nevari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Windain wrote:<div>Doesn't hurt that bad, just play something else.</div> <div> </div> <div>Haste line - 2 conc</div> <div>Songster's Luck line - 2 conc</div> <div>Stat buff - 1 conc</div> <div>Mana regen - 1 conc</div> <div>Proc line - 1 conc</div> <div> </div> <div>Just need to find your favorite mix</div><hr></blockquote> It does as I took into account the other goodies from the buffs as I used the training options for buffs aswell. IE Niv's Song of Harmony with, not much but still, 3% DPS increase for group. Or Vhalen's Stirrting Tune with the increased max power. All not longer possible. Furthermore the CA are not affected by Haste and damage relays on CAs. Mana regen is 13/tick... tell me it's usefull. Proc line? All my weapons got a proc... and each time either song or weapon does proc, it takes power which is now lower aswell due to the no longer buff stacking. Again, tell me please it doesn't hurt bad. I still disagree.

[aeio]

<div></div>This majorly sucks. It is a huge hit to my ability to solo... I am in the new zone now and the change has me so disconcerted it is hard to even concentrate and play. <div></div><p>Message Edited by aeiouy on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Jethro]

<DIV>Glad I like playing my Warlock.  This is stupid, unbearable, and as of right now Troub. is a broken class-low dps, mediocre buffs, low health, and now negligible difference now to groups.  Where is the balance?  They may as well finish us off and take away pathfinding and escape.</DIV>

[Sile]

Sort of bummed, I feel like all we get is nerfs, since day 1.  I guess their goal is make our class undesireable. <div></div>

[Koman]

<P>Absolutely laughable!  Y'know what's really, really sad...  I'm already so weak and inefectual that it's not really going to matter much at all.  What now Devs?  Take away my ability to solo greens?  Bwah!  </P>

[Ru]

Since we are supposed to be able to renew without canceling or having free con points with this patch this has to be a bug related to that. For me it was the cancelation bug again, all my group stats are grey and clicking another cancels rather than renews or starting the next one casting. I really hope they fix this rather than saying "Hey it's been broken since the game started and all the way through beta and now we fixed it so you can't stack". This will finish off my troub if it's not a bug.

[Shalwin]

<P>I think it was never intended for the rousing tune line of songs to stack, but it was the only thing that made the troubador a viable class.  This is just the final nail in the coffin lid for many, many troubadors.  Sure, there will be some hardcore troubador lovers out there that will stick with it regardless of what may happen to the class, but I think many people will shelf their troubadors after this one.  I, for one, no longer have any desire whatsoever to play my troub.  </P> <P>It really sucks to buy a game, then have it almost totally rewritted as you are playing it, I guess them's the breaks when playing MMOG's.</P>

[Koman]

<P> </P> <P>Sorry Ruhx, it's not a bug - it's definitely intended.  Here's a quote from the patch notes: </P> <P>- Toggleable maintained spells will now begin their reuse timer when cancelled. They should block any other spells that are upgrades/downgrades of the same line while active, and should begin the reuse timers on those upgrades/downgrades when the blocking spell is cancelled.</P> <P> </P>

[Windain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarion wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Windain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Doesn't hurt that bad, just play something else.</DIV> <DIV>Haste line - 2 conc</DIV> <DIV>Songster's Luck line - 2 conc</DIV> <DIV>Stat buff - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV>Mana regen - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV>Proc line - 1 conc</DIV> <DIV>Just need to find your favorite mix</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It does as I took into account the other goodies from the buffs as I used the training options for buffs aswell. IE Niv's Song of Harmony with, not much but still, 3% DPS increase for group. Or Vhalen's Stirrting Tune with the increased max power.<BR><BR>All not longer possible. Furthermore the CA are not affected by Haste and damage relays on CAs. Mana regen is 13/tick... tell me it's usefull.<BR>Proc line? All my weapons got a proc... and each time either song or weapon does proc, it takes power which is now lower aswell due to the no longer buff stacking.<BR><BR>Again, tell me please it doesn't hurt bad. I still disagree.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It doesn't hurt me at all.  Defensive buffs > stat buffs now anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, so I also got Niv's song of harmony and Vhalen's Stirring Tune, but with the stat nerf the loss of the stats and dps can be made up with other songs.  I never stacked any of these songs when soloing (Use Invigorating Opus (+4 defense), Swan Song/Niv's Song of Fortune (+8 defense), and Raxxyl's Vivacious Discant (+4 Parry) for the win).  Yes, our mana regen sucks, I haven't used the proc line since... well I used it once, Haste is nice for mostly melee groups as regular melee is a factor in dps.</P> <P>Anyone who leaves over this shouldn't have played a bard in the first place.  Give it a week and see if you are as crippled as you say you are.</P>

[Ru]

It's a good thing leveling is to fast in this game then i got to 50 before this, but not before they reduced stat effectiveness. One lvl 50 troub down the drain. Why reduce stat effectiveness and then wipe out the ability to reach the cap all together. Foresight seems to be in really short supply in the dev cycles for this game.retired Malakon 50 troubador on highkeep...To the poster above, play your troub your way. Perhaps you should not be a bard, as it would seem you do not play one my way ... sounds stupid doesn't it? One dimensional characters kill games. I am dumbfounded that this is intended however. Since no where along the way have i seen a dev say "troubs are not supposed to stack". Infact with the reduction in stat affect bonus it seemed like they said just the opposite. If you have a post or note saying that stat stacking for troubs was never intended please link it.<p>Message Edited by Ruhx on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span><p>Message Edited by Ruhx on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:59 PM</span>

[Slotor]

<DIV>So that's what? Two nerfs in the last month. I'm realy thinking of cancelling both my eq2 and both my eq1 accounts. I don't understand why they nerf stuff. But I realy don't care. as of now, cancelled</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>Slotor Dembeats(retired)</DIV> <DIV align=center>Grobb</DIV>

[IICC]

<DIV>I'm not one to complain much, i like to think of myself as a person who thinks of both sides of an arguement or a change. Fact is, this nerf has completely drained me of the one last thing i could say to people to convince them my class is useful. I'm 45, and the only troubador in my highly successful raiding guild, well scratch that, make that no troubs. Never been one to say this, but GG SOE.</DIV>

[Nevari]

Nice points but still something forgotten here. The spells are NOT overwritten. They are cancelled and then recast. Rendering Lullaby kinda completly useless now /cheer As for /respec and adopting NOW to the changes is not possible either. Personally don't have the training replacement for Swan Song. As for DPS we don't get the direct DPS increasing songs like Dirge and our DPS mainly were based on buffing STR which is no longer case. Skill buffs do not increase DPS whatsoever. We neither talking about attribute buff stacking, all stacking is removed. All in all I agree with Ruhx. <div></div>

[Jethro]

<DIV>So they need to un-nerf agi again right, since the reason for it is no longer a possiblility?</DIV>

[Windain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ruhx wrote:<BR>It's a good thing leveling is to fast in this game then i got to 50 before this, but not before they reduced stat effectiveness. One lvl 50 troub down the drain. Why reduce stat effectiveness and then wipe out the ability to reach the cap all together. Foresight seems to be in really short supply in the dev cycles for this game.<BR><BR>retired Malakon 50 troubador on highkeep...<BR><BR>To the poster above, play your troub your way. Perhaps you should not be a bard, as it would seem you do not play one my way ... sounds stupid doesn't it? One dimensional characters kill games. I am dumbfounded that this is intended however. Since no where along the way have i seen a dev say "troubs are not supposed to stack". Infact with the reduction in stat affect bonus it seemed like they said just the opposite. If you have a post or note saying that stat stacking for troubs was never intended please link it. <P>Message Edited by Ruhx on <SPAN class=date_text>03-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:56 PM</SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Ruhx on <SPAN class=date_text>03-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:59 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Now I never said that I was happy this happened.  I have used it a lot, but most people see this and think they are worthless.  Go log in and test the loss, I'm playing right now without a problem. " Perhaps you should not be a bard, as it would seem you do not play one my way ... sounds stupid doesn't it? One dimensional characters kill games."  I never said play it my way either, bards have always had a need to adapt, you will just need to adapt to this change in your own way.</P> <P>90% of the people posting here see this, think troubadors suck now without even bothering to see the minimal effects, and then act like they want people to feel bad for them.  This very well could be changed back in the future (which would be nice), but don't despair.. troubadors are still one of the best classes out there.</P>

[Windain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarion wrote:<BR>Nice points but still something forgotten here.<BR><BR>The spells are NOT overwritten. They are cancelled and then recast. Rendering Lullaby kinda completly useless now /cheer<BR>As for /respec and adopting NOW to the changes is not possible either. Personally don't have the training replacement for Swan Song.<BR><BR>As for DPS we don't get the direct DPS increasing songs like Dirge and our DPS mainly were based on buffing STR which is no longer case. Skill buffs do not increase DPS whatsoever.<BR>We neither talking about attribute buff stacking, all stacking is removed.<BR><BR>All in all I agree with Ruhx.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just a note on the training replacement for Swan Song.  I got Niv's song of fortune before they released the detailed descriptions of spells and thought it was great.  But now that the descriptions are out, it is = to adept 1 swan song (swan song is actually better because it gives agi..... and will give wis if they ever fix it).  Be happy you picked something else, I wish I did.

[Nevari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Windain wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Nevarion wrote:Nice points but still something forgotten here.The spells are NOT overwritten. They are cancelled and then recast. Rendering Lullaby kinda completly useless now /cheerAs for /respec and adopting NOW to the changes is not possible either. Personally don't have the training replacement for Swan Song.As for DPS we don't get the direct DPS increasing songs like Dirge and our DPS mainly were based on buffing STR which is no longer case. Skill buffs do not increase DPS whatsoever.We neither talking about attribute buff stacking, all stacking is removed.All in all I agree with Ruhx. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Just a note on the training replacement for Swan Song.  I got Niv's song of fortune before they released the detailed descriptions of spells and thought it was great.  But now that the descriptions are out, it is = to adept 1 swan song (swan song is actually better because it gives agi..... and will give wis if they ever fix it).  Be happy you picked something else, I wish I did. <div></div><hr></blockquote>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Maybe they should allow a /respec each Live Update so we can adopt to the deep impact changes that come along each time <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That's bad for sure <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Nevari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Windain wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Ruhx wrote:It's a good thing leveling is to fast in this game then i got to 50 before this, but not before they reduced stat effectiveness. One lvl 50 troub down the drain. Why reduce stat effectiveness and then wipe out the ability to reach the cap all together. Foresight seems to be in really short supply in the dev cycles for this game.retired Malakon 50 troubador on highkeep...To the poster above, play your troub your way. Perhaps you should not be a bard, as it would seem you do not play one my way ... sounds stupid doesn't it? One dimensional characters kill games. I am dumbfounded that this is intended however. Since no where along the way have i seen a dev say "troubs are not supposed to stack". Infact with the reduction in stat affect bonus it seemed like they said just the opposite. If you have a post or note saying that stat stacking for troubs was never intended please link it. <p>Message Edited by Ruhx on <span class="date_text">03-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:56 PM</span> </p><p>Message Edited by Ruhx on <span class="date_text">03-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:59 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>Now I never said that I was happy this happened.  I have used it a lot, but most people see this and think they are worthless.  Go log in and test the loss, I'm playing right now without a problem. " Perhaps you should not be a bard, as it would seem you do not play one my way ... sounds stupid doesn't it? One dimensional characters kill games."  I never said play it my way either, bards have always had a need to adapt, you will just need to adapt to this change in your own way.</p> <p>90% of the people posting here see this, think troubadors suck now without even bothering to see the minimal effects, and then act like they want people to feel bad for them.  This very well could be changed back in the future (which would be nice), but don't despair.. troubadors are still one of the best classes out there.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Oh the only thing that beefs me up are the constant nerfs without a fix or compensation. Look at the compiled class issue list. Anything fixed by now? No, we just keep getting nerfs.... That's the problem here <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Windain]

/respec would be nice.  I played EQ1 from the start... took them well over a year before most classes were finally done being changed and less bugged (there will always be bugged and problems).  I figure it could take at least 6 more months (they mainly use expansions to fix things... or break them more :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Nerfs suck, but hey at least we aren't EQ1 necromancers

[Aut0Ki]

<DIV>This really sucks, I just respecced to choose the level 20 spell that increases agi, str, and sta and now this? I wish i would have gotten a warning :/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was bragging to my group last night about how at 24 i can add +46 to str, agi, and sta...now it looks like i have no reason to brag.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE i am fine with this so long as you give us something here, instruments...anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shadoerider]

<P>Woodworkers can make us Instruments but unforntunatly you can't do anything with them</P> <P>I personally do not like this yes I can play other songs but why should I rousing tune and the special ones are not the same as the Raxxyl line so why put them together</P>

[MMThunda]

I haven't used stacked buffs from the Rousing Tune line since before agility was even nerfed to begin with. I'm still quite happy with my ability to either solo or contribute to a group, and I know for a fact that I have on occasion given my group the ability to survive a fight they otherwise would not have (and it wasn't because of their agility stats). The Songster's Luck line, much maligned by bards it seems, is by far the greatest benefit we bring to the table either solo or grouping. The rest of our songs are situational, but if you leave off that defense & offense buff you are shooting yourself, and your group, in the foot. To be blunt, I've always considered the stacking agi buffs to be a bug, which is part of the reason why I rarely if ever used it. After the agility nerf, I never used it again and never looked back. Rousing Tune + Songster's Luck + * (and their upgrades) has always served me better. There are other ways you can use your songs than just stacking the same line ad nauseum to make the numbers in one column get really big.. try it and give it a shot. <div></div>

[Asheb]

<P>I'm a bit miffed by the stacking change as well.</P> <P>I always thought is was a bit odd that we were able to stack upgrades, and counter-intuitive to nerf the effects of very high abilities while allowing stacking. It seems like it would have been more to the point to just implement this change initially. However, using the strength effects breadkdown often cited, it seems that the very-high ability effects nerfed were out of range of a single character's buffs anyway, so the changes might not be entirely inconsistent.</P> <P>Which raises my new question, will two Troubador's be able to stack now? For instance, could one play Raxxyl's and another play Vhalen's for combined effects? That would allow more interaction between two bards in a single group (but considering my server has less than 300 troubadors total, two in a group is exceedingly rare).</P> <P>If this change is permanent, I'm glad I saved my /respec. Cassindra's and Vhalen's Aria are looking like pretty good options now. The aria gives a different source of agility, and Cassindra's gives a group intelligence buff we don't otherwise have (ignore that intelligence means little, please).</P>

[matthewstud]

<div></div><font size="4"><b><span>I agree this is unfortunate...   main reason I became a bard was for run speed and stat buffs.Now only dirges get the run speed song not us.... and we have had our ability to buff attributes cut in half....I propose that they change it back to buff ALL stats (int and wis too)OR--------------------How about giving us a Faster Run Song instead of 2 stat buff songs that don't stack...    please think about it.Thank you in advance.</span></b></font><div></div>

[Ru]

So far most of the postive answers have been along the line of "don't put all your eggs in one basket" which is great advice. My problem is that we now have just one basket so all the eggs go there.

[Nevari]

<div></div>Buff stacking is in some ways a common miss-concept. We were always able to cast ALL of our attribute buff songs. Did we get the whole summed up increase in attributes from it? No, never we did. Why is this? Cos there are actually two different lines of attribute buffs. Rousing line is not Raxxyl line for example. And to be honest... loosing this ability to stack the buffs now does leave us what? What are we doing better than dirges now? One skill buff song? C'mon <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: On a second thought it's fine some did not use the "bug" but personally I don't want to miss the increase in power coming from the buffs <span>:smileywink:</span> Lower power means less CA means less DPS and so on... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Nevarion on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 PM</span>

[Ahash31]

<DIV>please EVERYONE post on the main forums... under spells, CA... if we can bring this post to the main forum maybe a dev will actually look at it. I agree with every single one of you, 44 Troubador here and just don't want to sound repitious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are now Dirges with no run speed and DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Alfetor</DIV>

[Ru]

BTW Vhalen's stirring tune, Niv's Song of Harmony, Raxxyl's energizing Harmony(master 1) and Raxxyl's Vivacious Descant(adept 1) did all stack and give stat + to everyone in the group for me before this change. I also just got a dev reply to my bug petition on this and was asked to use feedback, after he/she tested my spells some. I pointed out this thread and asked that someone take a look at it.<p>Message Edited by Ruhx on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 PM</span>

[Asheb]

<P>Thanks, Ruhx. If the change was intentional, hopefully we'll get at least a statement on the dev's reasoning.</P> <P>And whoever one-starred you deserves an eyebrow shaving.</P>

[Aut0Ki]

<DIV>Does anyone else think this was unintentional? I'm beginning to suspect it.</DIV>

[Byto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aut0Kill wrote:<BR> <DIV>Does anyone else think this was unintentional? I'm beginning to suspect it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Unintentional?  As a long time EQ1 bard, they seemed to manage to break something different with bards on nearly every patch.  Yes, this is not EQ1 and there bards were, truly, a different animal.  However, I still doubt that anyone at SOE has ever actually played a 'bard' in any of their games.</P> <P>I'm gonna take a wait-and-see approach to this change.  My normal line-up <EM>had</EM> been two stat boosters and Minstrel's Fortune with the last slot for whatever might be useful.  With this new 'adventure', they're advertising new spells.  It's possible, but probably unlikely, that one of these new spells might be something that a troub will actually want to sing.</P> <P>And to the poster that brought up the issue with Lullaby:  Although it's going to be quite some time before I have any personal experience with that song, having that song CANCELED and restarted has the potential to be a major issue.</P>

[Bi]

<div></div>Personally I am a little disappointed by todays update. Being able to buff stack was one of the few things that made my class - to me - a waste of time. At the moment (at 27) I have nothing to bring to the fight that another scout class could, and they would probably do more dps; in fact from the parses I have seen so far, I do not even come close to outdamaging other scout types. The stat buffs that I used to bring to the battle which made 1 healer groups easier, and generally things that I could 'sing' about are gone. The skill and observation needed to keep buffs up that had longer timers (eg: perf talent and elises ditty - to keep my dps pre-patch decent) were things that I made the game fun and interesting; and kept my attention. Now the dps I bring has been hit fairly hard, with the removal of my stackable self-buffs; and the dps that my group stats bring have been hit as well, making me less desirable for groups (and tbh I find it veruy difficult at my level to find groups on runnyeye atm) Sure I have other skills I can use at the moment; but tbh why would anyone want a 2nd class enchanter? my mana regen is pretty useless, my agi stat buffs arent obvious to anyone except a healer (and usually only an observant one - they think its the tank more often) - and now will be less obvious as I am only buffing half as much. I have only 3 skills that are worthwhile keeping up at 27. Vhalens/Rousing or Raxxyls Energising Harmony; and Songsters Luck - and Reproaching Discante.  my other conc slot was filled with vhalens; but now only raxxyls will be there. Maybe at higher levels this makes a huge impact on mobs, and the difficulty they give - I was grouping with a dirge the other day in RoV; with vhalens, raxxyls and the dirge equivalent up. The monk who was tanking golems (lvl 29 vs 30)  was being beaten to 20% of his health, and eventually we had to evac. Sure this might have been a bad monk / bad healer - the point being that if it was, surely this is what should be happening... TWO stat buffers, and a healer, and he is hitting red fighting white/yellow mobs.. Maybe SOE didnt mean for this to happen - fighting yellow 2up mobs; but imo.. nerfing stat buffs makes my troub that much more undesirable for groups, as an already undesirable class at my level - mainly because people do not understand how they work - perhaps - also because they are still trying to be scouts, not buffers (and now what buffs do they really bring?) :/ shelving my troub to play my monk for a while (i seem to be a sucker for nerf-bat classes) ah yes - and making our skill training songs worthless and not allowing another respec is just a kick in the teeth. <div></div><p>Message Edited by bieb on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<DIV>We're checking on this issue and will post when we have more information.</FONT></DIV>

[Fhang]

Thanks for the reply moorguard, sorry to be a pest but could you also: Lookinto why in the troubador song lvl 45 Swan song it states not only in the spell description but also in the $30 Prim strategy guide it says SWAN song raises the groups wisdom , and priests enjoy grouping with troubadors.   when actually the spell does not and should... been /buged for months plz have alook. <div></div>

[Mat]

Does dirges run speed still stack? If it does this leads me to belive it is a bug. Soe couldn't be that stupid, if it still stacks what reason is there to make a troubadour over a dirge?

[SGrim]

You know all those buffs we don't use because they do almost nothing and have no noticable impact on combat? Well, this is their way of making them used again since we have concentration just sitting there now, we might as well use those buffs. And when you're listing the nerfs to troubadors, don't forget to list the fact that they tied almost all of our attacks to just a few timers so we don't even have enough attacks now to keep a good fight going.  Of course, maybe this is their way of making our haste song useful... now that we spend a lot of time in pure melee waiting for our combat art timers to reset. I haven't really played my troubador since Update #4 because of the cumulative effect of nerfs making him almost useless and unwanted in groups.  Update #5 pretty much put the last nail in his coffin. The sad thing is, when I first read the update notes on test server, I told my guildmates, "Brace yourself for a huge stealth nerf to troubadors in this patch because there was no nerf listed in the update notes and that's a first for us."  I knew better than to assume that no listed nerf meant no nerf... I know SOE too well for that. <div></div>

[Ginnunggap]

<div></div> To answer matt5's question. No. This has affected us dirges too. When I play a song in the same line as the speed song, the speed song is immidiately cancelled. But since the speed is only works out of combat, this is just an annoyance as far as I'm concerned. I hope the dev's will treat this as a bug and fix it for you quickly. There are far too few bards of both classes around, and hate to loose even more. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ginnunggap on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[Mat]

Wow.. this really sucks big time.. I guess I get to solo crabs with the other rejects on the beach now.. Maybe we can form a group and drive around in our short bus while Mrs templar and Mr guardian drive around in their 400,000 tour bus with 4 wizards in the back... I'm really really disappointed.

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Windain wrote:<BR>Nerfs suck, but hey at least we aren't EQ1 necromancers <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Or EQ2 Necromancers for that matter.  Our pets were completely broken with today's patch and the "invincible mob returning to point of aggro" change.  The /pet backoff command now breaks the encounter for the pet only so he is now completely out of the fight, invincible, and unable to be commanded.  So the bread and butter of our class just got completely broken (happens 100% of the time) and we weren't even mentioned in the patch notes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, don't want to hi-jack your thread, just thought I'd toss some comedy to your comment - especially since we get no Moorgard (or any red person) response on our threads <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[VikodiN]

<FONT color=#ffff00>Thanks for the reply.</FONT>

[Sp]

Yeah, I get smacked with a huge -25 Str/Sta/Agi stat hit with this update. Also, I don't have much to run in general set now.. I used to run Vhalen's/Raxxyls/Songsters/Bria's, my other choices are quite bleh, Arcane Chorus only worth it if I go up against caster mobs(I don't, I'm a soloer, priest mobs aren't to my liking) Aria of something(5% for some damage, waste of time). I only wish to retain by ability to solo yellow "solo" mobs and green ^^ and other group mobs(for the sake of quests mainly). If I can't do this, Ima be pizzed, and I try to remain sensible. <div></div>

[IKS_Nels]

<P>I am absolutly disgusted with todays patch my 37th Troubador was next to usless with 600 hp less then yesterday a loss of 25% of my already low DPS, which ment the 2nd healer was doing more DPS then me!!! and I was getting hit more often due to lower agi. One group member likend me to a jester hitting mobs with a fluffy mallet, that was singing songs so badly that mobs attacked me instead of tank and then hitting the ground so fast the cleric didn't even get chance to target me to cast a heal spell. these are the effects of your ill thought out patch that made me laugh at your incopitance and cry at my continued suffering and that is pilled upon my class month after month.</P> <P>When will SOE do things proprely after all I pay you to maintain this game with my subscription money, yet I come to the conclusion that you Dev's and testers must be all playing WoW like the SOE presedent rather then fixing and testing your own game, given in to Wow already because if thats the case then theirs not much future for EQ2</P> <P>Was on the verge of Deleting that toon and rerolling glad I looked here first. At least you recognise their may be a problem, hope you fix it quick as my caracter is for now a jester running along at the back of the group, singing songs that no longer stack, but will only be able to do that for a short while till the groups realise Ii am wasting a valuable slot and someone else could be their.</P>

[Despak]

Gods, how many people have actually tested all this? Yes it's a pain about stacking, but at least it's being looked into - thanks for the info Moor! But as to the I can't fight crap, try!!! I was still happy trashing sol Orcs upto Yellow in Zek, Green^^ Giants in TS resulted in ZERO damage to me, D'Morte yellow casters all were easy as normal. My serious beef is with some abilities - sneak and kians becomming locked at times until I zoned. <div></div>

[Olod]

Yeah I know it's being looked into, but this change makes the Troubador class the LAST to be considered for in joining a group. We have nothing that a Dirge can offer better. Pow regen is a joke. I would be happy with the Rax change IF I could do damage or IF I could give my group Pow regen at a faster more realistic level. My haste? I made a Troubador to be able to Charm and Mez and do damage while providing a group with much more than dps. Now every other class in the game offers more than I. Groups knew I could give them an additional 800+ HP with my buffs, now I give them 250+. There always has to be the least desireable but c'mon this is a joke. Please allow us to have ONE thing to be able to do well, (besides hold aggro better than any other class) DPS, Haste, Pow Regen, HP Regen, I mean they all are completely useless. I guess Evac is the only thing left now. But wait there's 7 other classes that offer that.<div></div>

[Olod]

Oh yeah while you're at it, FIX the Performers Talent and Elises Ditty stackable issue. I guess since buff of the same line shouldn't stack you should fix this too. Thx <div></div>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ahash31 wrote:<BR> <DIV>please EVERYONE post on the main forums... under spells, CA... if we can bring this post to the main forum maybe a dev will actually look at it. I agree with every single one of you, 44 Troubador here and just don't want to sound repitious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are now Dirges with no run speed and DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Alfetor</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am glad that they did this - I hope they continue to make the troub more Drige-like until eventually there are no troubs left at all. Then maybe Soe will be able to concentrate more of it's resources on the only bard class that counts: the Dirge.  Also, there will be alot less whiners giving bards a bad reputation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But seriously, why the constant need to whine? Moorgard said he will look into it, what more do you want? Oh, yeah, sorry you want balance, lol. If you wanted to play a cool class you should have chosen Dirge in the first place you losers. Of course you would still be unhappy because eventually they will get around to fixing the run speed issue and the issue of one of the de-buff lines actually having some impact upon play  and then what would you have? (except a cool name instead of whince inducing quiff) :smileyhappy:. Man. Get real. what next; I want to /respec my CLASS every patch?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to play a challenging cool class then choose dirge. If you just want to whine like a female dog and call for nerfs on your brothers then play a troub...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aut0Ki]

<DIV>He posted that before moorguard made his comment so dont throw a hissy fit.</DIV>

[HannaIcebla]

<P>hmm i assumed that the lack of buff stacking was a bug and i therefore bugged it immediately.. if it's intended then they MUST undo the old AGI nerf</P> <P>the way that spells are recast atm is very annoying too - as 1 poster said earlier it renders lullaby (our 1 remaining decent spell?) worthless as the mob must be unmezzed to remez it!!!!</P> <P>while I still enjoy the game (primarily because I like doing the quests), I find I never solo and enjoy the combat far less than I used to due to the constant nerfs and my lack of usefullness and power.. I feel that Troubadors are badly in need of some attention and each patch day I avidly scan the patch notes for some long overdue fixes to our spell line .. but each time I see a list of stuff for pretty much every other class but ours, classes that already work a LOT better!</P> <P> </P> <P>I can't heal, I can't slow, I can no longer mez effectively - my buffs have been drastically cut in power TWICE - my damage is similar to that of a paladin (my attack rating is not impressive, despite having 2 orange heritage weapons) - my power taps are worthless, my combat arts are all on 3 timers, i cant group invis, i cant semi tank (my avoidance buffed is around 6% more than a wardens).. the things I can currently do well are... evac and make people dance..</P> <P>I don't know if this is due to lack of Troubadour QA and Test players, or general ignorance by the devs on our list of issues - what would really help is a page that details a list of acknowledged problems for each class that is being actively worked on by SOE, or a community representative for each class who could relay information - at the moment the ammount of info provided on many topics is underwhelming</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aut0Kill wrote:<BR> <DIV>He posted that before moorguard made his comment so dont throw a hissy fit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually you're right. I apologize to Ahash31, actually I should have aimed better. </P> <P>But the true point I was trying to make was, regardless of Moorgards response, why all the comparisons with Dirges? Are bards not brothers? How many responses in this thread go on to say "why choose troub over Dirge" or infer that now Dirges are somehow better? The answer is too many. </P> <P>IMHO Dirges are better, but not becuase of any real game mechanic - in truth we are equally sub-par on that count. I just play a dirge because they suit my tastes. Now you want to be flowerey quiff wearing dandies then by all means play a troub. But why can't there be a thread that states the problem without 'class envy' or finger pointing 'They got this - we don't, it's not fair' </P> <P>How about some solidarity? That too much to ask? </P> <P>And no I ain't throwing a hissy fit - I enjoy trolling whiners almost as much as I enjoy having an intelligent discussion about EQ2. </P>

[aeio]

Yeah the agility nerf, combined with these songs using concentration, this should be changed back. <div></div>

[Mat]

I didn't mean why choose a troub over dirge because one is better then the other. I said it because now they are almost exactly the same. Save rez and the power/health leach thing.

[Koman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <P>just play a dirge because they suit my tastes. Now you want to be flowerey quiff wearing dandies then by all means play a troub. But why can't there be a thread that states the problem without 'class envy' or finger pointing 'They got </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meadsong:  You claim we should act like brothers and you post junk like this?  Do the other Dirges know you're giving them a bad name over here?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Darkendr]

<DIV>Yes well we cannot stack our stat buffs anymore. I knew this was coming because I had a hunch it was unintentional. As the 2nd level 50 Troubador on the Everfrost server I used to be able to buff my group's str, agl, and sta by 137, with only one of the training versions. Now I can only do 46. That is a marked decrease, but yes I can still raise a "significant" amount, but it now prevents me from using the words "except for" during any particular instance of me whining to someone half listening about how Troubadors are underpowered at 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our strongest power regeneration spell by 50, Bria's Exalting Ballad, gained at 42, as an apprentice 1 version, raises group power, initially by 13, and 13 more for every tick after. The adept 1 version's difference is only, that the *initial* increase has been raised by 2 points to 15. The power regeneration over time has not changed. Perhaps its an error in spell description, but regardless, 13 or 15, it is still small compared with, for example, enchanters, who can have a power regeneration of 40 something per tick. I am not claiming to have something comparable to theirs, that is not our "place," but such a diminished regeneration amount in comparison is actually embaressing and hardly useful in a group at 50. There have been times when I had my power regeration song running, and was asked by other members to please play it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our strongest haste spell, Invigorating Opus, gained at level 42 I believe, as an apprentice 1 version, grants 6 percent haste. I was shocked at that, but withheld any judgement until I got the adept 1 version. I did, and it grants 18 percent haste. The same percent that the adept 1 version of our level 29 ability, Gerard's Resonant Sonata, granted. Surely this is not intended? To grant a group the haste of a level 29 Troubador? Again, in comparison to an enchanter class, that can give the group haste percentages in the 40s, is a choking embaressment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both the power regeneration abilities,  I recognize, should not be comparable to those of the classes that have apparently been chosen to be 'the best' in those regards, but surely they should be increased slightly to be in line with their own gradation of increases and matching the power of a level 50 character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our health regeneration spells, the Quiron's line, is a nice feature of the Troubador class but seems to have little use in group situations, at 50. At these levels, if this is the only healing for the group, there is no capability regardless, and if there is, it is so insigificant that it is a waste of one whole concentration slot, *let alone* two. Surely, as with my suggestions for the power regeneration and haste abilities, a slight increase is due.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubador Charm: I have spoken with other classes that can use a charm ability and they have told me that it hardly works for them, lasting only several seconds. My only charm spell is Bria's Entrancing Sonnet, gained at level 21 I believe. It is adept 3. I have maxxed the skill Subjugation (thanks to Breathtaking Bellow using the skill, which is apparently the only real use for that spell), and I cast the charm on a grey mob. It lasts around 10 seconds, if I am lucky. How will this give benefits of tangible utility in a group situation? In a solo situation? Excuse me for possibly being dense, but I cannot see the utility of it. In a group, all it does is make the mob I cast it on harder for the tank to regain aggro from after the several seconds it has endured my command. The 5 minute recast timer is limiting immensely, but only because of the short duraiton of the spell. If the duration of the spell was a shadow of what it was in Everquest 1 (not consideration any dire charm effects) then it would outlast or at the very least nearly outlast the 5 minute timer, elimiting the long recast timer time, AND the extremely limited utility of the charm spell, in a single stroke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guviena's Osmotic Ovation - This spell, gained at level 44 I believe, says in it's description that it requires a ranged weapon. When I have equipped a satchel and an ample supply of throwing hammers and try to use the ability, I get a message saying that I need a bow. This should not be so! I should be able to use, as the spell claims, a ranged weapon - of my choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many spells are not being upgraded properly to be in line with the efforts needed to get them upgraded. I am speaking from a Troubador point of view, although I am sure the problem is not only ours. The best stat buff spell that Troubadors get, at level 38, Raxxyl's Vivacious Descant, raises str, agl, and sta by 46 at adept 1. The master 1 version grants 47 points to the same stats. With the difficulty of obtaining a master you desire of a specific spell, with the spell being of this level, should not the increase in potency, well, be greater than a single point? A similar thing happens when I upgrade Elemental Chorus, a level 44 spell, from adept 1 to adept 3. At adept 1 this spell grants 686-912 points of resist to cold and heat damage. That is all well and good, but at adept 3, an upgrade that costs a certain amount of money that is significant, the spell grants 708-942 points to the same resists. Is that not a minute increase for an upgrade that is somewhat difficult or expensive to obtain? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for people "whining" about nerfs? Sure this is a whine. A valid one. So if you are just posting to make an accusation and post some ascii art, don't and say you did, and we'll all say thankya, cause if you got nothing valuable to contribute, nothing positive, or in the interest of satisfying other posts, then I'm sure we can all do without whatever fluff you wish to show us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Maverick 50 Troub-ador (the 'troub' is for trouble...) on Everfrost</DIV> <DIV>--Also 25 Jeweler...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Darkendred on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:42 AM</span>

[Darkendr]

<DIV>sorry double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Darkendred on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 AM</span>

[Bionic]

<P>Hello this is Jose Shigemitsu from the german Valor Server.</P> <P>Again i had a very senseless discussion with one of the "Wannabe" Guides/GMs at our server. </P> <P>Do they translate into german via GOOGLE? what is that .. they arent any help! the always say the same like if they were bots!</P> <P> </P> <P>NOW I WANT HELP HERE!</P> <P>i hav ea 28 troubadour and some of my re use timers are messed up since the patch! Please fix this as fast as possible or i (and a lot of my friends) will unsubscribe to EQ2! It seems that you have no interests that people play scout classes (especially Troubadours)</P> <P> </P> <P>change it or we will all leave!!!!!   change it or we will all leave!!!!!   change it or we will all leave!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE!</P> <P> </P>

[Deebi]

<DIV>I'm glad they are looking into this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did not get a chance to test much of this. So I won't comment much.</DIV> <DIV>I logged in, I saw the nerf, didn't want to spend the little time I had to reorganize my songs and explore better combinations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dusted off my Cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just want the Dev team to know that I don't like it. Not that it is right or wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to point one thing out. I am very capable of canceling a song (myself) to refresh the timer and recast it. This did not need to be fixed or changed.</DIV> <DIV><U>BUT - - It would have been more helpful</U>, instead of what I little I saw, to be able to cast the same song you want refreshed without canceling (i.e. The way pathfind works is fine, it refreshes) Attempting to refresh a song that is already up and concentration is maxed, should not tell us you do not have enough concentration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Cleric Thanks you!</DIV>

[Deebi]

<DIV>dupped</DIV><p>Message Edited by Deebius on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[Nevari]

@Darkendred Kudos! Very well written sum up. Heads up here. <div></div>

[Darkendr]

<DIV>Ah yes how inconsiderate of me to forget, Troubador Mez. It works great and i say thankya developers! Good stuff!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maverick</DIV>

[MMThunda]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deebius wrote: <div>I would like to point one thing out. I am very capable of canceling a song (myself) to refresh the timer and recast it. This did not need to be fixed or changed.</div><hr></blockquote> Actually, this fixes one of my biggest personal beefs with the class. A lot of the time if I'm having framerate issues or lag (which, unfortunately, is often), mousing over all my buffs to right click and cancel them can be non-trivial, especially if in the middle of a fight or running away. The ability to do so with keypresses now makes me very happy. As for complaints that Troubs currently offer nothing over Dirges, there is validity there. One thing that many may or may not realize is that the meat and bones of our buffs (their primary functions, like Raxxyl's agi/str/sta buff, Songster's defense/offense skill buff, the str/agi debuffed by our Reproaching Discante line, etc) is exactly identical to every equivalent spell on the Dirge side. Dirges buff and debuff for exactly the same amounts that Troubadors do at the same level and quality of their spells. The main difference comes in the extras. It is difficult to compare the usefulness of our line of heal over time songs to a Dirge's ability to debuff enemy AC significantly, or our elemental resistance buff to the Dirge's ability to combat rez. Even the secondary effects of some of our songs appear to be less than useful compared to a Dirge's equivalent songs (take the parry bonus on Raxxyl's Vivacious Descante vs the defense bonus on Harl's Kindling Strain, for example). Personally I see the run speed buff as something that both classes are supposed to get and will eventually be fixed, so I try not to get upset about that one for now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now there are some things that I feel Troubs do better than Dirges. I do, in fact, use our power taps frequently to run an enemy out of power (not to replenish mine), which has often made a difference in big fights where the monster can't be killed quickly. Our high level bowshot attack, when used with fulginate arrows, is a dirty little secret that hardly any other power in the game can compare to (though I fear that will eventually get nerfed too). However, what I'd really like to see happen is for Troubadors and Dirges to truly have some distinction set up between them. Let one class have some buffs that are truly better than the other's versions, and vice versa. For instance, let the Troubador line of skill buffs be better than the Dirge line by several points, and let the Dirge haste song line increase attack speed by noticeably more. Ideally what I'd like to see is a complete retool so that the two classes hardly step on each other's toes at all, but thats probably wanting too much, and in any event it would tick off many players of both classes if some of their abilities got removed and replaced with something completely different. Its hardly the end of the world right now, and this patch has affected my personal ability to contribute to a group or to solo not in the least. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see a few bones tossed to Troubs from time to time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Shiloh]

<DIV>After the early February patch, I could no longer solo white cons - and had to be very VERY careful with blues.  With this stat nerf, I'm not nearly as valuable to a group anymore.  If Sony actually has people playing Troubadors, I can't imagine what they are thinking if they consider this a balanced or desireable class, anymore.</DIV>

[yus1]

<DIV>So what if the buffs stack????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we all got 5 concentration, its my troub let me CHOOSE how to play it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do i want to use 2 raxxyls 1 Niv and 1 vhalens , well let me, its not like i got 45 conc and using all the spells that i ever learned</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>first we had the big agi nerf now this?? </DIV> <DIV>DPS? we aint DPS, never been , im lvl 50 and i seen tanks out damage me ( hhmm maybe i should shut up before they nerf tanks )</DIV> <DIV>power regen ?? a lame JOKE </DIV> <DIV>health regen?? JOKE</DIV> <DIV>mez?? Wait guys let me set the mob free so i can RE MEZZ it, run a little bit till its mezzed and hope u dont die</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proc ?? its a joke, i never use this crap spell and dont want to</DIV> <DIV> all we had was the 4 spells that seems most of the bards used, ( i never did investigate what training i should take, they sounded best and i took them )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now we dont got that either, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guy one: hi , nice lvl 50 troubadour, so what u do at that lvl ??</DIV> <DIV>Troubadour : well i harvest a lot because i am crap in group/raid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im extreem [Removed for Content] off, and what i have seen on forums LOTS off people are complaining, </DIV> <DIV>1 complain hell little mistake but this???????????????????????????????????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Obsidia]

<DIV><FONT size=2>The nerf seems to be pretty punishing to a class that has very few players to begin with. I don’t know if it was “broken” or “fixed” either way it was very disinheriting to be the leader of a small guild that happens to have 2 troubadours that were quite [Removed for Content] off last night.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> <DIV><BR>It wouldn’t have been SUCH a huge issue (sure it would have sucked) but I never saw this mentioned in patch notes, so it hit people by surprise. Then SoE gets the reputation for “stealth nerfs” … and I guess this just solidifies that perception <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><BR>Even if it’s now “behaving as expected” I think it should be put back to the way it was until someone at SoE can start communicating these types of class changes to the player base with more transparency.</DIV>

[Anfirek]

EQ2: "where the ninja nerf come alive" ...

[jawgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HannaIceblade wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I can't heal, I can't slow, I can no longer mez effectively - my buffs have been drastically cut in power TWICE - my damage is similar to that of a paladin (my attack rating is not impressive, despite having 2 orange heritage weapons) - my power taps are worthless, my combat arts are all on 3 timers, i cant group invis, i cant semi tank (my avoidance buffed is around 6% more than a wardens).. the things I can currently do well are... evac and make people dance..</P> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is the best job I have seen yet in relating the experience of playing of a Troubador. The last line is classic..well done!!!<BR>

[escari]

Some sort of comment from a dev other than "we're looking into to whether or not this was intentional blah blah..." would be greatly appreciated. <div></div>

[CrazyM]

<DIV>Glad I stopped playing my 35 Troub after the first round of nerfs.  These types of changes just make playing not fun.</DIV> <DIV>Anyone for some Halo2?</DIV>

[Blackguard]

The song stacking issue will be addressed in an upcoming hotfix. <div></div>

[Sebastien]

Congrats troubs. =) <div></div>

[aeio]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:The song stacking issue will be addressed in an upcoming hotfix. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I wub yew. </span><div></div>

[IKS_Nels]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>The song stacking issue will be addressed in an upcoming hotfix.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would take it that from this post Troubador have always ment to have been able to stack their stat buffs from the same line and that we are not exploiting a bug! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV>This is great news I just hope its fixed quickly.:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Cr]

<P>'The song stacking issue will be addressed in an upcoming hotfix.'</P> <P>That's great!!! Please, still take a look at our other issues - In all the patches and Hot Fixes there has been very little attention given to the Troubs. compared to all the other classes.  I'm guessing that since there are relatively few of us that there is a lack of testers. </P> <P>There is a lot of great posts and valid information here and I hope it gets looked at.</P> <P></P> <P>Again, Thank You Blackgaurd.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Crig on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span>

[Deebi]

<P>What are "you" so happy about?</P> <P> </P> <P>Where does he say they will revert?</P> <P> </P> <P>Just says "addressed"  can mean many things in their world.</P>

[aeio]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deebius wrote:<div></div> <p>What are "you" so happy about?</p> <p>Where does he say they will revert?</p> <p>Just says "addressed"  can mean many things in their world.</p><hr></blockquote>They have said they will address it.  That implies change.  They can't make it worse, so the only thing they could do is make it better. </span><div></div>

[Fhang]

id bet they are just gonna makje NIVS song of HARMONY stack with raxxyls, but you can only play 1 raxxyls at a time <div></div>

[Moorgard]

<P>To be specific: stat buff songs should be stackable in the manner they were before, though Rousing Tune and Vhalen's Stirring Ballad will still share the same reuse timer so only one can be up at once.</P> <DIV>Stat songs in and of themselves don't break the game, so we'd rather bards have the fun of keeping up multiple stat buffs if they choose to do so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This fix won't make it in tomorrow's update, but should be in the one after.</DIV>

[Nevari]

/thumbs up Cheers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>To be specific: stat buff songs should be stackable in the manner they were before, though Rousing Tune and Vhalen's Stirring Ballad will still share the same reuse timer so only one can be up at once.</P> <DIV>Stat songs in and of themselves don't break the game, so we'd rather bards have the fun of keeping up multiple stat buffs if they choose to do so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This fix won't make it in tomorrow's update, but should be in the one after.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gratz Troubies!</P> <P> </P> <P>Now what about every other class broken in this patch?  Some acknowledgement to the thousands of posts would be nice...</P>

[Suoju]

I wonder if this applies to Dirges also?

[Mase]

apparently we aren't bards once we become dirges, cause our attribute buffs have never stacked.

[Shiloh]

<DIV>Moorgard said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>To be specific: stat buff songs should be stackable in the manner they were before, though Rousing Tune and Vhalen's Stirring Ballad will still share the same reuse timer so only one can be up at once.</P> <DIV>Stat songs in and of themselves don't break the game, so we'd rather bards have the fun of keeping up multiple stat buffs if they choose to do so. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This fix won't make it in tomorrow's update, but should be in the one after.</DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <P>To be specific, I hope this means that Rousing Tune, Raxxy'ls and Nim's stat buffs will be stackable as they were before. </P> <P>I'm not uber, but I have - according to the game - well over 1000 kills of undead, doggies and others. At level 34, I probably have well over 20,000 attacks. TWENTY THOUSAND. </P> <P>It amazes me and depresses me that ANY other class can come in here and tell me what my motives were during all this time. I am NOT to blame for any strength or agility nerf in early February, nor am I to blame for any nerf needed on Troubadors now. I fought over TWENTY THOUSAND battles as an online friend to my groups and as a person using the tools GIVEN to me. </P> <P>I was a bard in the 3 online games I played prior to this and I'm a bard now. I'm not "gaming the game" or trying to take advantage of ANYONE. But I AM trying to use the best combination of skills presented to me. </P> <P>For ANYONE to suggest that it's somehow me or my class's fault that we suffer a setback in capablities is the height of ignorance, jealousy or just plain meanness</P></DIV></DIV>

[Ibis]

20,000 kills? zomg, wow.  /bow down to you. Shiloh is my new god.  da troof 4 real. <div></div>

[aeio]

20,000 kills at level 34 ouch. Mix in a quest. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Komandi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <P>just play a dirge because they suit my tastes. Now you want to be flowerey quiff wearing dandies then by all means play a troub. But why can't there be a thread that states the problem without 'class envy' or finger pointing 'They got </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meadsong:  You claim we should act like brothers and you post junk like this?  Do the other Dirges know you're giving them a bad name over here?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I PM'd Komandi his answer cos' I was touched by his sincere concern.</P> <P>But back on topic, gratz troubs you big girl's blouses you. I am glad you got you're fix. Feel sorry for all those whiners who deleted and quit over this though, honest :smileytongue:<BR></P>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>To be specific: stat buff songs should be stackable in the manner they were before, though Rousing Tune and Vhalen's Stirring Ballad will still share the same reuse timer so only one can be up at once.</P> <DIV>Stat songs in and of themselves don't break the game, so we'd rather bards have the fun of keeping up multiple stat buffs if they choose to do so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This fix won't make it in tomorrow's update, but should be in the one after.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What about for Dirges?  Rousing Tune never stacked with Harl's.

[Nil]

<DIV>Also our self buffs as dirges never stacked either..  Graves embrace + Peformers talent do not stack..    While both fo teh troubs self buffs stacked as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also whats annoying is we have a lot of songs wich cna be running at once  but dont stack but appear to be stacking..    I know when I group with a troub I have to tell him to drop rousing tune cause I am over writing it...  </DIV>

[Nil]

<DIV>Ohh yeah  while they are starting to make our buffs a toggle.  (grey to cast and click again to cancel to clcik again to recast)  why not start giving them 12 hour durations like the concentration buffs of every other class in the game.   I know I am getting tired of buffing every 10 mins or so.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only non-Concentration buffs should have durations</DIV>

[SGrim]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nilty wrote:<div>Ohh yeah  while they are starting to make our buffs a toggle.  (grey to cast and click again to cancel to clcik again to recast)  why not start giving them 12 hour durations like the concentration buffs of every other class in the game.   I know I am getting tired of buffing every 10 mins or so.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Only non-Concentration buffs should have durations</div><hr></blockquote> Just be happy it's ever 10 minutes and not every 3 seconds. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Spar]

DOHHHH.. After learning we could not stack our buffs.. I did a /respec  and did not choose the buff spell for agi ... Im guessing I am jammed on this now... sighhh

[CrazyM]

Everytime the screw up like this they should allow another respec. 

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

<P>I don't know, a /respec every week would be a lot of work :smileytongue:</P> <P>j/k :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I was wondering about our self buffs stacking as well, don't understand why they should and dirges do not. </P>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sparlo wrote:<BR> DOHHHH.. After learning we could not stack our buffs.. I did a /respec  and did not choose the buff spell for agi ... Im guessing I am jammed on this now... sighhh<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yet more proof that troubs are pathetic morons. I mean come on? Did you really not have the patience to wait and find out if this was a mistake after how many other things like this happening in the past? Oh well not to worry, pretty soon you will be able to <STRONG>/respec your class</STRONG>. Just remember to choose meathead this time :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Oh yeah and get a sense of humour around here. You're supposed to be entertainers of a sort (and I don't mean in the village idiot sense: that's my job).</P> <P>"One star is better than none"</P>

[Geero]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sparlo wrote:<BR> DOHHHH.. After learning we could not stack our buffs.. I did a /respec  and did not choose the buff spell for agi ... Im guessing I am jammed on this now... sighhh<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yet more proof that troubs are pathetic morons. I mean come on? Did you really not have the patience to wait and find out if this was a mistake after how many other things like this happening in the past? Oh well not to worry, pretty soon you will be able to <STRONG>/respec your class</STRONG>. Just remember to choose meathead this time :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Oh yeah and get a sense of humour around here. You're supposed to be entertainers of a sort (and I don't mean in the village idiot sense: that's my job).</P> <P>"One star is better than none"</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know this is troub's forum.  You coming in here and saying "troubs are pathetic morons" is like going to germany and saying  germans pathetic morons.</P> <P>If I were you, I wouldn't call anyone else [Removed for Content]...</P>

[JNewby]

<DIV>this wasnt a nerf... I understand you are upset the with bard class... so am I, I am a dirge our buffs were never stackable... that was a bug and now it is fixed.. so maybe now they can fix our songs as well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ru]

I saw the test update notes, thank you to the devs for looking at it and getting a fix together quickly.

[Longspo]

<P>LOLLL Meadsong and you called us pathetic morons...  looks like y'all have got a few of your own...</P> <P>"this wasnt a nerf... I understand you are upset the with bard class... so am I, I am a dirge our buffs were never stackable... that was a bug and now it is fixed.. so maybe now they can fix our songs as well"</P> <P>These are his thoughts after 3 developer posts to the contrary on the same thread...</P> <DIV>I guess the pathetic [Removed for Content] bat isn't limiting itself to Troubs eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/boggle</DIV>

[speedycerv]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTT I'm SO happy i sold that Master Minsteral's fortune, won't use it at all with my lovable buffs back <div></div>

[Shiloh]

<DIV>Thanks, devs.  And by the way, my earlier post made reference to 20,000 ATTACKS, not 20,000 kills.  Believe me, I've run/died/evaced enough that there *is* a difference.  However, on sober reflection, I realize that the number of NON doggie/undead/skeletons that I've attacked is probably much less than I calculated the other night.  A more realistic figure is probably 10 to 12 thousand attacks.  And now that I write this, I realize I have to factor in experience gained through quests and just discovering new places, so we may be down to 8000 or so.  Far less impressive.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ismik]

<span><blockquote><hr>Longspoon wrote:<p>LOLLL Meadsong and you called us pathetic morons...  looks like y'all have got a few of your own...</p> <p>"this wasnt a nerf... I understand you are upset the with bard class... so am I, I am a dirge our buffs were never stackable... that was a bug and now it is fixed.. so maybe now they can fix our songs as well"</p> <p>These are his thoughts after 3 developer posts to the contrary on the same thread...</p> <div>I guess the pathetic [Removed for Content] bat isn't limiting itself to Troubs eh?</div> <div> </div> <div>/boggle</div><hr></blockquote>I understand your urge to reply to this kind of garbage but I'd like to remind eveyone of the axiom:  "Do not feed the trolls."</span><div></div>

[Longspo]

<DIV>noted...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry couldn't resist...</DIV>

[Stillwate]

Gah, lame troub here. Before reading this thread I didn't even realize I could stack my songs. What other nifty tricks do we have up our sleeves?

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Longspoon wrote:<BR> <DIV>noted...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry couldn't resist...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah Longspoon, you should know better. Luckily for you I've eaten today, burp... that troub was tasty. </P> <P>Though In the post you quoted I didn't see where that dirge had /respeced since that patch. Which is kind of what I was referring to. Though obviously he is a borderline whiner who in need of correction. Or maybe he's just a pathetic [Removed for Content] who clicked the wrong dialogue box when he went to see Arrell Silvertongue: "Doh, I clicked Dirge by accident".</P> <P>For the record I don't have anything against Troubs - it's just my RP persona spilling over onto the boards (and my love of whiner baiting). </P> <P>/looks around for One Star Monkey, breathes sigh of relief. Oh there you are :smileywink:</P> <P>"Hell is other Dirges"</P>