Top Ten Troubadour Issues

[Caa]

<DIV><STRONG><U>Updated March 2, 2005</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hoping a top ten list will help get us some more attention. I concentrated on gathering gameplay issues rather than cosmetic ones for now. I will try and update the thread as things get fixed, and/or our priorities shift. Please feel free to reply with any suggestions and comments, but if possible don't make it a wishlist. Try and keep it to serious balance / gameplay issues. Espceially looking for feedback from high level troubadours (<--- notice the spelling) since I have not seen the extent of our abilites. Thanks!</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #1 - </EM>Stat Buff Line</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this is the most common complaint of all troubadours since the strength and agility changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Possible Solutions</U></DIV> <UL> <LI>add directly to AC / HP/ Attack along with stats</LI> <LI>add a melee damage modifier to the line</LI> <LI>another possibility is to make these buffs buff ALL stats, including Intelligence and Wisdom.  Spreading the Power increase to Mages and Priests would go far to making this line a big improvement</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #2</EM> - Power Regen Line</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>The power regen line is close to useless in combat and completely so out of combat where crafted drinks make it negligible.</P> <UL> <LI>9 power / tick Adept 3 at 35</LI></UL> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>increase in combat power regen</LI> <LI>lose the power regen but have the line take a % off the power cost of skills and abilities</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #3 - </EM>Limited Use to Casters</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>As it stands, the only thing we offer to casters is power regen and even that isn't really all that great.</P> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>add a spell damage modifier to the Aria line</LI> <LI>modify the power regen line as described above</LI> <LI>add a spell cast reduction to our haste line, see below</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #4 - </EM>Haste Song Line</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Haste only affects non-combat ability damage. As we all know, CAs and spells are unaffected by our haste so it is of limited benefit.</P> <UL> <LI>Adept 3 Haste, Level 36 24% to non-combat ability damage. From the data I've seen on the brigand board and other parses, most non-CA damage hovers around 30%. This being the case we're actually seeing a 24% increase of 30%, or 7.2% total increase for two concentration slots. Remember this is melee only, so in a group of six say three are melee types (and assume that they do half the damage). We're actually seeing a 3.6% increase of group DPS.</LI></UL> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>have haste reduce the combat ability and/or spell timers by a scaling %</LI> <LI>add a melee damage modifier to the line</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><STRONG><EM>Issue #5</EM></STRONG> - <STRONG>Health Regen Line</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Around 22 regen a tick when mobs hit for 50 times as much damage is well underwhelming.</P> <UL> <LI>24 regen / tick Adept 1 at level 35</LI></UL> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>increase the health regen per tick</LI> <LI>combine it with our power regen line</LI> <LI>make it situationally useful, let's say a heal over time for one minute with a long recast timer</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #6</EM> - Number of Concentration Slots Used Per Song</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Several of our songs use two concentration slots but are really of limited use. These include</P> <UL> <LI>Songster's Luck Line (2) - skill modifier that is of debatable use below Master 1 level</LI> <LI>Haste Line (2)</LI> <LI>Health Regen Line (2)</LI> <LI>Alin's Soothing Seranade (1) -  this skill is used to lower hate gradually over time. </LI> <UL> <LI>When your concentration bar is full, as mine always is, you need to click off a buff, cast this song and only then does it <EM>start</EM> to lower your aggro. Makes it next to useless to cast once you have aggro. Would be a much better tool if it was a short duration, say 30s, and had a recast timer of 3 minutes.</LI></UL></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #7 - </EM>Not Able to Overwrite Songs</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>As it stands if we want to refresh a song we need to either wait for it to run out or manually cancel it by clicking in the maintained spells bar.</P> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>make our songs overwritable</LI> <LI>allow us to use the buttons in the hot bar to activate and deactivate our songs </LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #8 - </EM>Self Haste Line Broken</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Taffos' Brilliant Blade works, why not the rest of the line? Walt's Thirsting Thrust does not have a buff icon pop up and does not self haste even though it is supposed to according to the description.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #9 -</EM> Stealth and Sneak Attack Line are bugged</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>People are finding that Troubadour stealth line often does not hold once someone in the group engages. Consequently we can't get off our stealth based attack. There is a lot of debate on how this happens, but most importantly it is not reliable whatsoever. Also, we cannot stealth mid combat which makes this skill even less useful. And lastly, the damage on this stealth based attack line is extremely variable. At level 36 I've seen Clara's hit anywhere from 130 to 310.</P> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>Make the stealth line resistant to mob debuffs, AoE damage, etc. so we can at least use this skill at the beginning of the fight</LI> <LI>Allow us to use the Troubadour stealth line in combat, much like the level 3 Sneak and drastically reduce the 3s timer</LI> <LI>Narrow the range of damage making it omre reliable</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><STRONG><EM>Issue #10</EM></STRONG>  - <STRONG>Charm</STRONG> </FONT></P> <P>Besides begin buggy, e.g. breaks encounters randomly, this is of limited use. We do not by any means aspire to being enchanters but a fix here would be appreciated</P> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>have charm use a concentration slot and make it drain power, but make it a fixed duration</LI> <LI>reduce re-use timer</LI></UL> <P>Here is a reference (in work) <A href="http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/</FONT></A> of our abilities and how they scale.</P><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Jark]

Great list, I would also add that our sneak line has the same bug as the buff/debuff icons. During HO's if the "mask" icon comes up & I hit "walk lightly" I'll get a stuck-icon in my maintained list. After several combats I can end up with 4-5 of these & they all have to be cancelled manually. I've also zoned & had them still up...while I will suddenly find myself in stealth mode, amusing/anoying/easy-to-reproduce/broke

[KineticMu]

<DIV>Hey Jarkun I great spell I found to cast instead of stealth when the mask comes up is Elise's Ditty, it used to be really good because it was only a 2 min buff, being 15 mins now it seems like a waste but not any more of a waste than Stealth. It doesn't leave broken graphics in the maintained window and has a faster refresh timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great list! I wanted to add to:</DIV> <P><STRONG><EM>Issue #7 - </EM>Not Able to Overwrite Songs</STRONG></P> <P>As it stands if we want to refresh a song we need to either wait for it to run out or manually cancel it by clicking in the maintained spells bar.</P> <P><U>Possible Solutions</U></P> <UL> <LI>make our songs overwritable</LI> <LI>if not overwritable make it easire to cancel songs, by clicking on the spell to take it off, and reclicking if we're like to reapply it or play a different song.</LI></UL> <P>I only suggest this because sometimes I've found myself in combat where maybe I have 1 conc left and say I played a debuff and then our tank had trouble holding agro, perhaps I'd want to click it off and play the hate reduce song or something. It's easire than right clicking off the maintained window because I know where everything is faster on my own hotbar. Also if you're just needing another conc up in an emergency like you need a slot for charm etc etc.</P> <P>I definitly second about the concentration issue as well, too many weak spells are taking up 2 conc. While health regen, though low, is a great little addition it's not affective enough to be taking up 2 concentration slots. I rarely play it out of combat even rarer that I'll play it within. I like the suggested solution you had, also.</P> <P>One final issue I have, which I would put as an 11 or 12, if not further back on the list of things to improve is run speed. There is tons that need to be fixed first, but I would be tickled pink if stacking run speed was made in to a Bard ability instead of Dirge only. Sadly I am one of the people that misses Selo dearly, and seeing stuff like some quests say "Oh race along old Bard delivery routes, etc" is just another kick in the pants, cuz nowadays Troubadors are running just as slow as every other scout out there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We're happy people you'd think we'd have like "Vhalen's Gleeful Skip" or something!! If SOE feels Dirges were just plain ment to travel faster (though... I've prolly said this a billion times I have no clue why one bard, given what we are known for, would have speed and not the other) I'd be happy w/ a [Removed for Content] one that didn't stack w/ pathfinding but still went a little faster =)</P> <P>Again great list, I think you ordered it very well also. The #1 problem we're having is the issue with agility and str.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KineticMuse on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[Caa]

<DIV>KineticMuse,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definitely see run speed as a point later on. I just wanted to take the top ten things for now and present them in a logical manner. For that reason I mostly kept the list on spells, abilities and things that are underpowered, broken, etc. While run speed is nice I think these ten items are of higher priority. Having said that, if I see that run speed is really a priority for everyone I can replace one of these with it. For now I'd like to keep the list to ten if possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also if anyone has parses, numbers on power regen or other useful quantitative info we can use to back these claims up, I'd appreciate it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[duc7]

<DIV>Nice compiled list there Caali,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #1 - </EM>Stat Buff Line</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this is the most common complaint of all troubadours since the strength and agility changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Possible Solutions</U></DIV> <UL> <LI>add directly to AC / HP/ Attack along with stats <LI>add a melee damage modifier to the line</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Songster's Luck fills this void just no HP</FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #2</EM> - Power Regen Line</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #3 - </EM>Limited Use to Casters</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>See #2</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #4 - </EM>Haste Song Line</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><STRONG><EM>Issue #5</EM></STRONG> - <STRONG>Health Regen Line</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #6</EM> - Number of Concentration Slots Used Per Song</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Several of our songs use two concentration slots but are really of limited use. These include</P> <UL> <LI>Songster's Luck Line (2) - skill modifier that is of debatable use below Master 1 level <LI>Haste Line (2) <LI>Health Regen Line (2)</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I'll agree some of these spells should be reduced in conc. ( I think Songster's Luck should stay at 2 slots )  but I dont want there to be a standard line of songs that are a given when playing a Troubador.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>i.e. before recent patches it was almost standard to stack Raxxyl's, Rousing and Vhalen's , then your choice on last 2 conc spots. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>There should be some reason to pick one over another  ( if they're effecient enough to use in the 1st place ) and thus make the player themself choose one over another.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #7 - </EM>Not Able to Overwrite Songs</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>As it stands if we want to refresh a song we need to either wait for it to run out or manually cancel it by clicking in the maintained spells bar.</FONT></P> <P><U><FONT color=#ffffff>Possible Solutions</FONT></U></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff>make our songs overwritable </FONT> <LI></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>allow us to use the buttons in the hot bar to activate and deactivate our songs orks best in certain situations</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>To me there is only one fix for this, if your casting a spell that is already in use it should automatically overwrite it.</FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #8 - </EM>Self Haste Line Broken</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #9 -</EM> Buff / Debuff Icons Not Disappearing</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><STRONG><EM>Issue #10</EM></STRONG>  - <STRONG>Charm</STRONG> </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Other individual things i can think of off the top of my head is:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>1. Fix Elise's Ditty- still uses power ( and alot of it ) when it proc's.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>2. Fix Luckblade - dang thing hits all over the damage range even on blue/green cons</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>3. Eli's Thunderous Hymn - very short cast range and can't move while casting</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>4. Aria of Excitement - this might actually be a good spell on a melee heavy group but it only proc's once a fight. Lower the damage and increase it's chances to proc</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>5. Do something with our power drains. Not even worth it to cast Swindle's Essance ( which is 3 secs long ) w/ Sandra's Deafing Strike if you can't drain a mob of its power before it dies</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>One other thing i would like to add is, give us instruments to augment these spells! I know they said this wasn't EQ1 but i would think that would be a given considering we're....... you guessed it BARDS!:smileysurprised:</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by duc748 on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Tharn]

<DIV>ISSUE #1:  ONE BY ONE, WE ARE LEAVING...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm definitely not the first, but I'm joining the ranks...  No rants or super-negative comments to make--I've just not been playing in several weeks.  Partly the nerfs I guess (not just our class, but all around).  I did take the time to login and post a feedback mentioning that I thought there had been too much focus on negative modifications to character power and not enough focus on bug reports (even simple things like typos).  Canceling is the only thing I can think of that will draw any real attention.  I did specifically indicate that the lack of dev presence on this forum was significantly noticeable and they should at least assign someone to read the latest page of threads and get a feel for the issues.  Wish you all the best--I'm off to conquer other worlds...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tharn</DIV>

[KineticMu]

<DIV>Caali,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you organized the list well, I was just adding the runspeed thing on extra. There are wayyyy more important issues, I really liked what you had to say =) Hopefully a dev will stumble their way upon our humble abode..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add they I've noticed that about Elise's Ditty too, taking power it also stops my casting. I loved to spin HO so sometimes I'd go a call that I was going to initiate, then before I could I'd Elise's would proc and I'd be unable to cast for a moment... by then my next in line had already gone ahead with their pusher so I'd miss them hehe.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KineticMuse on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 PM</span>

[Caa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> duc748 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I'll agree some of these spells should be reduced in conc. ( I think Songster's Luck should stay at 2 slots )  but I dont want there to be a standard line of songs that are a given when playing a Troubador.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>i.e. before recent patches it was almost standard to stack Raxxyl's, Rousing and Vhalen's , then your choice on last 2 conc spots. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>There should be some reason to pick one over another  ( if they're effecient enough to use in the 1st place ) and thus make the player themself choose one over another.</FONT> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As for Songster's as the fix for stat buffs, why should we have to choose one or the other? I think my point here is if we get a song line it should be useful or eliminated. Saying that our stat buffs are replacable by Songster's is saying the the stat line is redundant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a huge fan of Songster's Luck myself. I have the Master 1 and use it anytime my group is fighting yellows and above or is caster heavy. I use Adept 3 haste otherwise. The issues I read with the Songster's line are (not necessarily reflecting my own opinion I might add):</DIV> <UL> <LI>below Master 1, it is not worth 2 conc slots</LI> <LI>the upgrade Minstrel's Forturne, even at Adept 3, only raises OFFENSIVE skills 8 points</LI></UL> <P><EM>In my opinion </EM>the defining feature of Songster's is its defensive and casting ability boosts, and the offensive being the icing on the cake. Therefore, I don't bother with Minstrel's Fortune. I've also noticed, but not parsed, that Songster's is gradually making less of a difference when I have it on at level 36.  </P> <P>But I'm trying not to be biased in the list and to clearly reflect the community's opinion in general, rather than my own personal views. And thanks for the list of other bugs and stuff. I can add another I forgot to put in and will add as those first ten get addressed.</P> <UL> <LI>Resist Line does not mitigate spell damage in any kind of substantial manner. Not worth the concentration slot at the moment, </LI></UL><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

[duc7]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caali wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>As for Songster's as the fix for stat buffs, why should we have to choose one or the other? I think my point here is if we get a song line it should be useful or eliminated. Saying that our stat buffs are replacable by Songster's is saying the the stat line is redundant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>- Stat buffs are not redundant, ( there is just no use to stack all 3 of them as they have become less effective) they still add AC/Pow/HP useful for every member of the party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as choosing one over the other, i should have finished the setence a little better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>There should be some reason to pick one over another  ( if they're effecient enough to use in the 1st place ) and thus make the player themself choose one over another </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>given the situation the group/player is in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To expand on that, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If our spells are worth it to use in the 1st place, it should be placed on the player to choose which ones are going to better help their group rather than every Troub automatically playing the same exact songs. Which as it stands right now seems to be the situation as a lot of our songs are not very beneficial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[aeio]

Is a good list.. My order of importance might be a bit different, but I think you got most of the key issues there.I could see us having some of our stealth attacks replaced with something else as well.EDIT:Oh yeah and the number 1 issue for me for troubadors and all other scouts, is I want them to give us a clearly defined archetype role. Right now it does not exist. So we have no baseline we should aiming towards in terms of effectiveness and power.<p>Message Edited by aeiouy on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Jeffin]

<DIV>Good post, my friend.  I think you cover the bigger issues quite nicely.  I would only ask that you re-post this (if you have not already) in the Combat, Skills and Spells section.  Seems that this is where most classes have put such posts, and it does appear as though the Devs check that board a wee bit more often.  Anyways, a Dirge made a good post for their issues on that forum, and a Dev did at least acknowledge his post...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, here's my 2 cents, as a 30 level Troubador:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree to a point, but I do think this line is STILL a very good line of buffs.  A bit underpowered, currently, but still a nice series of buffs.  IF the Devs eliminate 'stacking' however, these will loose much of their usefullness (I usually keep Master Raxxyl's and the Specailty Vhalen's)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really like your solutions, but I would add:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--If they make the Song line buff Health/AC/Attack, they could put the song back on a short timer (1 or 2 mins...)</DIV> <DIV>  With this, they could make a really good buff that is much more like a song or chant, in that you have to keep an eye on it to   </DIV> <DIV>  keep it up...</DIV> <DIV>--Another possibility is to make these buffs buff ALL stats, including Intelligence and Wisdom.  Spreading the Power increase to Mages and Priests would go far to making this line a big improvement...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be nice if this spell did a bit more.  But still, although we are "only a drink," we are a "drink" that most other classes do NOT have, unless in our group.  Yes, Enchanters have a MUCH better power regen, but we do have an ability that is rare, if somewhat small...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like your ideas, but the second (Decreasing the actual COST of spells/skills/etc...) would likely be too much change in code for the Devs to really take a stab at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--I would do, as you state later, and COMBINE the Health and Power regens.  Bump them both a little bit (to make them worthwhile) and make the new "Regen" song a 2 or 3 concentration song (Depending on the actual strength of the regens...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree.  As you point out, there are any number of solutions that would make us MUCH more Mage/Priest friendly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Issue #4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hear people complain about this, but it is still a good ability.  Even without effecting spells and CA's, the baseline Haste, spread across a group (Many who do not HAVE any CA's...) has some utility at least...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cutting the casting times/recast/ etc. for Spells and CA's might again be a little too much messing with the actual code of the game, so I do not think Devs will really consider this (Would be VERY nice if they could, though....)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My suggestions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Make it a ONE slot Concentration.</DIV> <DIV>--Just INCREASE the % of haste/speed...</DIV> <DIV>--Put a special Proc on it, like the Aria of Excitement line...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #5</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anybody actually USE the 'Health Song???'  This is a waste.  No, make that a TWO concentration waste.  I really have absolutley NO idea of when, where, why or under what circumstance I would use this song.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--I think bumping its effect and combining it with the Power Regen (as I stated above) would help greatly.</DIV> <DIV>--Perhaps changing it from a REGEN song, to a HEAL (either Ward, Reactive, or regular...) would be much better than a weak regen, although if they scale it proportionatley, we would get, what a 50 point heal or something?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #6</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree wholeheartedly.  They need to either make the spells WORTH something, or reduce the Concenrtaion.  In my opinion, these 'buffs' are hardly worth ONE concentration, much less TWO...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #7</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is an interface problem that several classes are having, although it is likely toughest on Bards, due to our many options.  I fully expect this to be taken care of sooner or later,as soon as the Devs can get around to it.  (Probably the First, and maybe ONLY thing on your list to get attention, as it effects other classes as well...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haven't gotten that far, but I hope they fix it before I get there!  I have seen that there appears to be MANY bugs with MANY skills of all classes, post level 30.  But, the fact of the matter, is that there was likely minimal attention to ANY issues, bugs, etc. with class levels above 30 during Beta.  This is how SOE (and most others...) develope their MMORPG's.  Basically balance, fine tune and work the bugs out of the first 20-30 levels or so, then worry about the rest of the game after it goes live.  To give the Devs credit, the 'issues' seem to be less numerous than in many games of this ilk I have played...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #9</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Irritating in the exteme.  Again, this is an interface issue, and I think it will be corrected as soon as the Devs can get to it.  Likely way down their list, however...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Issue #10</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, although I have found this spell useful.  I REALLY like your idea of making it stick for a specific amount of time, although taking a Concentration slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Another suggestion would be to just add MORE such charms/mezzes (Perhaps in place of songs deleted or 'fixed' by combinning effects...).  Even if they were weak, it would be nice if you had TWO charms, one slightly better than the other...</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Thank you for taking the time to post a good updated list, I havnt had the time to sent down and think about it or type it out. I /agree on all points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree strongly</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I can understand our DPS being the lowest of all the scounts, that is all fine and good. However, our buffs are so subpar that it is not fesable for a Troub to be in a group when other classes preform a superior function.</SPAN></P> <P>Also, does anyone else find it very difficult to pull off an advanced HO due to the long casting time of many of our spells?</P><p>Message Edited by Belisarius on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[Caa]

<DIV>Jeffin,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks very much for the ideas I included some of them in the top post. I just want to mention I'm not acutally taking into account the difficulty of programming these things into the game. I'm sure the devs take this sort of thingunder consideration when they actually fix the skills. I'm compiling the ideas, they can pick and choose whichever they feel is best suited / easiest to implement / most balanced solution.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeffin wrote:<BR> <DIV>--If they make the Song line buff Health/AC/Attack, they could put the song back on a short timer (1 or 2 mins...)</DIV> <DIV>  With this, they could make a really good buff that is much more like a song or chant, in that you have to keep an eye on it to   </DIV> <DIV>  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Personally, I prefer not having 2/3 mins buffs as it is tough on my wrist click and unclicking so much. I've actually posted to that effect in other sections of the boards. I do not see why my defiler has 12 hour buffs while my troubadour has 10 minute buffs? Even for an RP point of view it seems a weak argument that someone can't sing 12 hours... because they have us singing 4-5 songs all at once. :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As per your suggestion I reposted the thread at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=29183" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=29183</A>. Hopefully we'll see some more ideas which we can use and possibly some sort of response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Byto]

<DIV>#6 and #7 are the two that I find most frustrating at this point, with the latter being the more significant burden...particulary as an old-school EQ1 bard, having to 'click' or 'right-click' <EM>anything</EM> is a pain in the backside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my personal issue with this would be reduced slightly if #6 were implemented to make all bard songs only use one concentration point...normally, i'll have four slots up at any given time...because the one slot is still free, that allows refreshing of single slot songs and/or keeps the slot open for a debuff or aggro-reduction if needed...refreshing haste or songster requires manually canceling <EM>something</EM> in order to restart the buff...</DIV>

[britn]

Excellent list!

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Would be nice to hear what a dev/csr thinks of this list.... /cough</DIV>

[Caa]

<DIV>Well, the post I put in the Spells and Combat abilties Forum can off the page so fast I got whiplash. If you look, the troubadour subsection is the least frequented of all scout classes. I guess just not enough posts to keep a thread active in that forum. So I'll just let it die and continue soely on this thread. I'm working with the assumption that they do browse these forums to look for threads like this even if they don't have time to post. In any case it can't hurt to keep it up to date for a while and see if anything comes from it.</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>It doesnt take long to post, and all of their post are short anyways. I would just feel 100x better if they said "We are looking into things" or something.</DIV>

[jawgo]

<DIV>This is indeed a good complilation that addresses pretty much every concern of the vast majority of Troubs. I would be thrilled if even a few were addressed. And hopefully this won't be a derail but I am compelled to /agree (again) with Aeiouy, that despite any enhancements made to the Troub subclass, we will still suffer somewhat until the role and skill set of all Scouts is brought in line with the other archetypes in terms of need and value to the basic grouping structure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rhutt</DIV><p>Message Edited by jawgoat on <span class=date_text>02-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

[Whiteheart]

<DIV>Greetings!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am posting here because this is a huge issue for me that i would like to see fixed.  I have put in numerous bug reports on it and would encourage others to do the same if you are having similar problem.  Here is the problem:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often cannot trigger or complete my HOs; solo or in group.   It's not a matter of being stunned or otherwise stifled, as I have checked that out carefully.  Sometimes i trigger an HO and it just sits there no matter what i do to advance it to the wheel.  I can use all of the stealth arts i have time for and nothing happens, the HO will time out eventually.  And when i can get it to advance to the wheel, nothing will complete it.  This does not happen every time, but often enough that I die of it on a regular basis.  I NEED the damage and other effects of the HOs, especially when soloing.  When the HO hangs up and has to time out, it means I lose all that time, as i cannot seem to get it to disappear before it times out by any means. </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see them fix this, as it seems to happen most often on my scouts.  It happens occasionally on my other classes but . . most often by a wide margin on my scout types.  I thought perhaps I was the only one this was happening to but i have asked around and found it happens to others as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So somewhere on your list I would put, fix the HOs please.  I do a bug report everytime i die of this.  Seems to me they would really be tired of hearing from me by now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the list of issues.  I think the posts here have generally been very well thought out and considerate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haikoo Heartsong</DIV> <DIV>23 troubador</DIV>

[Blackguard]

Thanks for the feedback.

[Cabel]

Wow, nice list. Thanks for compiling all of this and getting the attention of the devs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bevyn]

<DIV>Just want to add- I'm not even a troubadour, but I like the way the issues were listed, addressed, and the detail given.  I like to see the player community organize itself like this- makes me feel confident in the game.  No offense to the devs, but the community will make or break this effort- hope others take the example.</DIV>

[modofan]

<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for the feedback.<hr></blockquote>@_@Finally...

[serenader]

Wow a dev responded on the Troubador forum, guess thats a start

[Caa]

<P>Thanks Blackguard, always nice to know someone is listening.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whiteheart wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often cannot trigger or complete my HOs; solo or in group.   It's not a matter of being stunned or otherwise stifled, as I have checked that out carefully.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So somewhere on your list I would put, fix the HOs please.  I do a bug report everytime i die of this.  Seems to me they would really be tired of hearing from me by now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Whiteheart,</P> <P>Have you tried petitioning? Bug reports are good, but maybe a GM could help you directly. I say this only because I have never experienced this myself. I'd like to know if this affects anyone else. I've never heard anyone else complain about hanging HOs. You might also like to try posting in the Spells and Combat Ability or Techincal Help Forums. This sounds like something that may only be affecting you. </P> <P>I'm not trying to sound unsympathetic but that isn't really a Troubadour specific issue, more of a techincal problem. Should I be wrong, I'll gladly add it to the list.</P><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 AM</span>

[duc7]

<DIV>Thank you for the reply Blackguard :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grayl, Lvl 34 Troubador</DIV> <DIV>Adventurers Local</DIV>

[duc7]

<DIV>One other individual thing to add and maybe this happens to me only but,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the Agililty patch it used to be somewhat trivial to turn off attack, hit Cheap Shot ( stun the mob )  run around the backside and land Taffo's Brilliant Blade. ( now Walt's Thursting Thrust ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact i was able to attack while Cheap Shot was loading and still do this with ease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, even if i turn off attack well before i even start Cheap Shot i can only get this to land about 40% of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that mob on occasion will turn and follow you as you try to get behind it and the attack still lands, this is not the case as i look for the damage in a seperate chat box. Plus you get that annoying message , you cant use this attack unless flanking your target, or however its worded :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I've tried jumping over/around and this does not seem to help any.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone else find this combo harder to land? And do you have any hints to help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grayl, Lvl 34 Troubador</DIV> <DIV>Adventurers Local</DIV>

[Kieran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caali wrote:<BR> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #9 -</EM> Buff / Debuff Icons Not Disappearing</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this one has to do with monsters dying while the debuff is active. I haven't quite nailed it down to that - I think there is at least another condition for it to happen.</P> <P> </P> <P>You have some very good possible solutions to the issues you raise - good reading!<BR></P>

[matthewstud]

<DIV>I agree with this list...  too...   I really like the stat buffs because my party can see how much the stats have been raised, but now that the stats have been toned down...  in essence...  Bards in general have been toned down and less useful to a group...   and you know we can't really solo. LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Stat augmentation songs do need beefed up...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  If you like instruments...  I always just keep recasting the songs that show the instruments...   waste of power while in combat but fun nonetheless.   Still I'd love to see instruments added...    so I can dance around a lot more...  LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  I do agree the power regen / haste lines need bumped up...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) I too HATE canceling a spell so I can recast it... huge  pain in tha **&%^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are my 4 biggest issues but again all 10 are right on the money...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for posting Devs!</DIV>

[duc7]

 Not sure if this was directed to me,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> matthewstuder wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  If you like instruments...  I always just keep recasting the songs that show the instruments...   waste of power while in combat but fun nonetheless.   Still I'd love to see instruments added...    so I can dance around a lot more...  LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> I said we should be able to use instruments to <FONT color=#ff3300>augment these spells  </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>( i.e our spells/combat arts ) </FONT>and yes i feel we should have them for the look to. As Aeiouy pointed out something needs to be done to define this class' archtype role compared to other scout classes.</P> <P>As it stands right now i look like every other scout class in the game</P> <P> </P> <P>Grayl, Lvl 34 Troubador</P> <P>Adventurers Local</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></FONT><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT><p>Message Edited by duc748 on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 AM</span>

[Caladri]

<blockquote><hr>Caali wrote:<P><STRONG><FONT color=#99ff00><EM>Issue #9 -</EM> Buff / Debuff Icons Not Disappearing</FONT></STRONG></P><P>On those spells where we get a short term buff / debuff icon appearing in the maintained spells bar, often they do not disappear when the duration has run out. I can sometimes see 4-5 Dazzling Blade icons in the bar. The only solution is to manually remove them. The following lines give this bug.</P><UL><LI>Dazzling Blade Line (anywhere medium attack, - mental resist)</LI><LI>Stealth Line</LI><LI>Taffos' Brilliant Blade (flank attack, + self haste)</LI></UL><hr></blockquote>I noticed that this bug was more common when I was solo, and much more common when I was killing very low level mobs. Experimenting, I have found a way to reproduce this on demand. It happens when one of those combat arts you listed is the killing blow on a mob.

[Caa]

<DIV>Thanks Caladrius will fix the original post to reflect that.</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>FYI, Troubadours in the news at e2.stratics.com</DIV> <DIV>wuwu!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eaaq]

<DIV>Yes concentration... for me to buff my group is literaly impossible without more that 1 troubador... also... duoing and having to cast that debuff = lame... maybe troubador debuffs dont cost concentration?</DIV>

[Nevari]

Superb list :smileyhappy:/target Cali/thumb/star 5

[VericSauvari]

<DIV>**not so clever bump in the hopes it will be sticked to the top of the forums**</DIV>

[Tyrion1]

Although far far down the priority list, I would love to see the craftable drums/lutes being equippable at some point.Most likely in the secondary slot, so that you could visibly carry a lute on your back for non-combat situations like socializing, harvesting, crafting asf.

[Jehannum]

<DIV> <DIV>1. Fully agree; since the nerf, something needs to be added back, thanks to the unintended consequence of troubadors (and to an extent, dirges and other str/agi buffers) becoming far less desirable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. I'd love to see the power regen (and the initial startup cost) of the Bria line tripled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. See 5.  Also, Minstrel's Fortune does a dandy job of allowing my warlock roommate to tank (solo) like-level orcs without needing to root.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. I'd love to see haste include a small (say, half or one-thirdof its normal melee addition) boost to CA/spell casting times,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Health regen is phenomenally useful in specific situations.  Works phenomenally well for ripping through solo/epic solo encounters with sorcerous accompaniment, even those yellow/orange to all group members, and in fact even for white^^ as a duo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Songster's luck is perfect at 2 slots; anyone who claims otherwise isn't using it in the right situations.  Haste, I'd agree on since it only really affects basic melee.  The Alin's line is fine; I cast that one pre-emptively before I know I'll have to rebuff, and it's prevented my taking aggro even when I spam the buffs immediately after.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. Fully agree - I can't see it being all too difficult to add a final check as to whether the spell requiring more-than-available concentration is already running, and allow it if so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. Hadn't really paid a lot of attention to this; usually I'm concentrating more on the Thirsting Blade as an adjunct to Deafening and Manaslurp (yeah, I know that's not what it's called, but it sucks 'em dry fast enough nonetheless... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9. This seems more a cosmetic thing, and as such I'd actually place it below the top 10 (certainly below the whole "accentuated runspeed* vs nerfed statboosts" issue)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10. I hadn't even realised I could make 'em attack without breaking charm; so I've never encountered any problems with charm whatsoever, except when the tank says <A href="mailto:&^#@$ you charmed this one didn't you?!" target=_blank>&^#@$ you charmed this one didn't you?!</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*When horse runspeed was fixed, dirges' runspeed option at 30 became even more valuable in relief.</DIV></DIV>

[Caa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belisarius wrote:<BR> <DIV>FYI, Troubadours in the news at e2.stratics.com</DIV> <DIV>wuwu!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> LOL, I went to eq2.stratics.com to check it out. Not only did they not post anything worth noting. They misquoted me... I can't remember ever posting anything about pets backing off... Whatever, I guess any exposure is good.

[Xenok]

<DIV>Here here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xeno-</DIV> <DIV>50th troubador Unrest</DIV>

[Caa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jehannum wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>3. See 5.  Also, Minstrel's Fortune does a dandy job of allowing my warlock roommate to tank (solo) like-level orcs without needing to root.  </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Unless the spell description is completely off this song increases offensive skills and wisdom only. I don't see how this help your warlock friend tank, unless he can now hold aggro by meleeing! Joking aside, does it also raise defensive skills? I'm pretty sure it didn't when I put it on. I'll check again tonight but would appreciate some feedback including level of skill (app1, adept1, etc.) and how much it raised defensive skills.</DIV>

[Seth]

Songsteur's like spell Increase defensive, spell avoidance, subjugation, and all offensive skills

[Claritin]

<DIV>#1.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it's starting to be spam... but</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/" target=_blank>http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need to look at spell scaling also.. there should be a good reason to upgrade from Apprentice 3 to Adept 3... and there's not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sneak attack is kinda broken... our bard specific sneaks have always been troublesome  wen attempting to pare it with the sneak attack... the only one that shows good success rates is SNEAK the like lvl 3... yes THREE ability... and like a few patches ago made even that one have new "sneak breaking" issues... I can stand there with no hands on the keyboard and have sneak break when the pull is incoming.  lvl 49 sneak attack has 22% DPS buff... so it's not just the sneak attack damage we are missing.... also the timers on getting the sneak spell on is too long... so when you take sneak spell cast time + sneak attack spell cast time = worthless for the DPS value (you guys do know that our sneak attacks rarely ever hit for even half the maximum damage right?  That's a problem also IMHO and could be almost as effective to fix that then to lower cast time on sneak)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... thanks BG... you should still know how to get a hold of me if you need more info <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Claritin]

<DIV>Oh... and I want the HO wheel colored like spell icons on my hot bar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group buff = purple</DIV> <DIV>Same with the others : self buff, AE attack, Single target attack, Debuff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People shouldn't have to read guides on the internet to find out what this stuff is... and often it is too late... I don't like seeing an AE Attack go off and aggro extra junk because I didn't know to flip it because it had some silly name I didn't know... I have gotten used to it... but it is a lame part of the learning curve that can be dumped through moderate tweaking like I mentioned above.</DIV>

[Caa]

<DIV>Nice link there Claritin. I'm going to add it to the original post if you're going to keep it up to date it's good reference material. I'm also compiling a bigger list with all these other problems too. As they fix these ten I'll replace them with the new ones.</DIV>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>Maybe we should add a line to each of the 10 issues that says Unaddressed since Xdate</DIV>

[Jehannum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caali wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jehannum wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>3. See 5.  Also, Minstrel's Fortune does a dandy job of allowing my warlock roommate to tank (solo) like-level orcs without needing to root.  </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Unless the spell description is completely off this song increases offensive skills and wisdom only. I don't see how this help your warlock friend tank, unless he can now hold aggro by meleeing! Joking aside, does it also raise defensive skills? I'm pretty sure it didn't when I put it on. I'll check again tonight but would appreciate some feedback including level of skill (app1, adept1, etc.) and how much it raised defensive skills.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In my experience, it augments slash, pierce, ranged, defense, arcane defense and parry by 6 (though I may have missed some since those are the only ones I was really concerned about) - that's in the high 30s with Adept 1, dunno if it gets any better with upgrades - but that one song is what lets us solo green ^^ at my level, anyhow, and it's not because of its boost to our DPS but to our tanking ability.  Of course, the whackload of agi and sta from the Raxxyl's don't hurt for soloing either; I just wish I'd taken proper advantage of that before the nerf <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a related note... It increases wisdom?!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Caa]

<DIV>I put it on at the same time as Master Songster's and there was no change to any skills. I'll check up the defensive skills. Also if anyone has info about Adept 1, Adept 3 or Master level skills would be nice to know. It does not stack or exceed the 7 skill increase per skill given by Songster's Master 1. I'm wondering just how much it does do.</DIV>

[Nevari]

Got a thought on Breathtaking Bellow which is kinda completly useless.The spell should interupt a enemy but takes 3 seconds to cast. As soon as I see the mobs starts casting I could counter with Breathtaking Bellow but the long casting time renders it useless here cos as soon I got it of, the mob casted long ago allready heh.Anyhow it's the first spell we get to skill up Subjugation which is a bit annoying.<blockquote><hr>Caali wrote:<DIV>I put it on at the same time as Master Songster's and there was no change to any skills. I'll check up the defensive skills. Also if anyone has info about Adept 1, Adept 3 or Master level skills would be nice to know. It does not stack or exceed the 7 skill increase per skill given by Songster's Master 1. I'm wondering just how much it does do.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Not sure if I get what you asked for but Swan Song (last replacement for Songster's) does buff piercing, slashing, crushing, ranged, defense, spell avoidance, disruption, ordination and subjugation by 7 points at adept1 quality. Additional 22 AGI increase for group.

[Caa]

<DIV>I'm sorry folks but I've got to quit EQ for personal reasons. I won't be able to keep this thread updated anymore. Have fun!</DIV>

[Nevari]

<blockquote><hr>Caali wrote:<DIV>I'm sorry folks but I've got to quit EQ for personal reasons. I won't be able to keep this thread updated anymore. Have fun!</DIV><hr></blockquote>:smileysad:Live long and prosper :smileywink: Thanks for the work and dedication put into :smileyhappy:

[Belisarius]

<DIV>I will be starting a new top 10 thread so we can continue to have updates to the initial list. Lets keep this going guys.</DIV>

[Gumba]

<DIV>I agree for the most part with the list of problems.  Heres my take:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#1 - Agree - and think adding buff to all stats would be best</DIV> <DIV>#2 - Agree - this absolutely has to be increased.  Seems to do barely anything at all.</DIV> <DIV>#3 - Agree - Perjaps some specific resist debuffs could be considered.  And of course an increase in PWR regen</DIV> <DIV>#4 - Agree - this skill IMO is basically worthless.  Only time I bother casting is on a long battle where everyone is OOP - would rather this be a DPS buff since essentially if you hit more often it is the same result - but a DPS modifier would help using CA as well.</DIV> <DIV>#5 - Agree - if this scales with level but it should.  As well it needs to be increased alot to be effective.</DIV> <DIV>#6- Agree - concentration should be re-evaluated for some skills.  And ALWAYS a like spell should overwrite one already cast</DIV> <DIV>#7 - Agree Agree Agree - make them overwriteable darnit!</DIV> <DIV>#8 - Agree</DIV> <DIV>#9 - Agree</DIV> <DIV>#10 - Agree - mostly I would just like the duration to be longer - or dramatically reduce re-use timer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pathfinding stack like the Dirge would be nice since we are both Bards - or at least some increase when multiple bards in same grp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate the Stealth attack.  Just give us another Side/back attack on its own timer instead.  Or increase the damage of the Stealth attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also why does my upgraded stealth make me move slower than my lower level one?  Either keep it the same - or let me move Faster not Slower!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can we increase the speed at which some spells cast?  I swear mobs die in groups faster than i can cast some of these skills, AND I sometimes wonder if I am better off not casting at all since I will hit multiple times during the same cast period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As well an AE attack should not fail if the particular target is dead.  It should hit all in the group if some are still alive regardless of particular target.  IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jesterzzn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belisarius wrote:<BR> <DIV>I will be starting a new top 10 thread so we can continue to have updates to the initial list. Lets keep this going guys.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I think we should pattern the new thread after the one in the shadow knight forum.  Not really a top ten, but more of a concise list, with examples and descriptions.

[JSTatumUSArmy]

<DIV>bring back twisting id take that over being able to play 3 songs ..... at least there it was hard work with a good reward</DIV>

[Nevari]

Bit sad to see this thread die but anyhow. The test server patch notes really made me cheer!Finally we will be able to overwrite buffs :smileyvery-happy:I don't think that's enough love for the bards but it's the first step in the right direction.