My Troubador is funny, but he isn't much fun.

[ExtremeFaji]

Not meant to be sarcastic, I really do have a blast playing EQ2. That's just it though. My wife and kids left for a week yesterday and so there I am getting ready to start the great EQ2 fest of 2005! Well, except for the 35 hours of work that is. I am very excited to go home and play for 10 hours if I want. However, after playing my Troub late into the wee hours last night it hit me...outside of trying to make my groupmates laugh, I'm not really having that much fun with this character. I didn't quite feel like I was pulling my weight in a group and soloing was very hit and miss. Then today I thought about dusting my Cleric off or starting to work on an Ogre Paladin and the old EQ excitement started to rush back in. I do hope Bards get fixed, because I really do feel they are the least capable class in the game right now. Groups can take em or leave em and soloing is very difficult even with all orange/yellow equipment and all Adept spells/abilities. Now mind you, there is something to be said for playing a difficult character. However to me, the difficulty should come in the fine tuning of skills and abilities, balancing songs and melee etc. but not from having low DPS, buffs that easily go unnoticed, and an inability to take many hits. I don't play enough to spell all this out with stats and such, but I just can't get excited about my Bard's role in this game anymore.My guild is having a writ contest this week and I figured with all my time to play I could have a shot at winning. Then it hit me...I'll be in TS ooc'ing for a group, trying and failing to solo crabs and snakes and feeling like I'm wasting my valuable bachelor EQ time. So for the contest I'll grab my Cleric and get him to 20. At least I know I can get in groups to grind out some of those writs and have something more to show for my time and effort. Keeping people alive also gives me a more tangible reward while playing instead of feeling like I'm just along for the ride. By the way, my guild has 106 members and I am the only Bard (Allied Qeynosians on the Faydark server). That alone should tell the developers of the game that some thought should be put into changing the desirability of the class.Hopefully I'll feel motivated to play my Troubador at a later date. I really think if we are given a more defined role and some abilites that make us unique and valued, (other than changing the wheel HO [how many groups really work on that] or disarming a chest [they almost always go off anyways]) Bards can be a vibrant and appreciated class. At this point, my role is to keep the game fun and social, something that only I have control over. People sometimes are pleasantly shocked when their exp-grinding, silent group gets a wacky singing scout to keep things loose. That's my favorite part, but I can do that with any character. Might as well do it with one that has more relative value to the game.<p>Message Edited by ExtremeFajita on <span class=date_text>02-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Padi]

<DIV>You are playing a bard, a damage dealing support class.  It seems to me that many of you are having troubles realizing weither you help a group out or not.  You always play the same songs, you only see everyone elses DPS and damage taken capibilities with a bard in the group and don't realize what you added.  You see your DPS lower than other DPSers, but the thing is, others notice when you come and go, assuming you play decent songs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't have to see the whole group do 100% more damage when you arrive to be worthwhile to a group.  All you really need to pull your wait is maybe 15%-25% improvement in a groups DPS and yours added in, which you MORE than do now.  My dirge ups a groups DPS by about 40% on average, per player.  That is HUGE.  Not only do we add to the offense, we add to the defense of the group and power regen to limit downtime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn your strengths, learn what helps a group succeed.  Learn the power of songsters luck and upgrades.  They turn a group struggling to a group mowing down the mobs.  Stats and skill increases are huge.  Debuffs can be good (especially dirge debuffs), power regen is great with a fast paced group.  While it's all a little suttle at times, it's extremely powerful as a whole, and even if the improvements are limited to 25% per person, you've MORE than helped your group enough to be worth your weight.</DIV>

[aeio]

While playing a troubador may not be for you, they are FAR from being the least capable classes in the game.They are very effective as solo characters, and an enormous help to groups. You have a ridiculous amount of options to your class.I think part of your problem is you are in your low 20s, so you have not even really gotten into the Troubador Class. Remember you didn't even become a troubador until level 20.I have played several other classes, and none of them have the versatility and options when it comes to dealing with encounters that a troubador has...

[Koman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <DIV>While it's all a little suttle at times, it's extremely powerful as a whole, and even if the improvements are limited to 25% per person, you've MORE than helped your group enough to be worth your weight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>"While it's all a little suttle (sic) at times"...  Funniest thing I've read all day!  </P> <P>So please, Sire, tell us what these magic song combinations are!  The Songs they gave me don't do squat at Lvl 24.  I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to improve every member of the group by 25% (and 40%! pu-lease); Wow!  - Do I not see THAT ever happening.  <BR></P> <P>Songsters Luck - +3 attack/defense (yawn).  Haste - 10% (only noticible without specials, useless).  Rousing Tune - Stats +20 str/agil/stam (str/agi nerfed - no apparent effect).  5% chance to proc (once every other battle?).  +5 in-battle mana (just mana burn and take a drink).  Debuffs are even weaker.  The only reason my group notices the buffs at all is because of the icons.  </P> <P> </P>

[Koman]

<P>Double post.  Sorry.  </P><p>Message Edited by Komandi on <span class=date_text>02-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 PM</span>

[AzureDa]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>You have a ridiculous amount of options to your class.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>I think you got that wrong; what you really mean is: <U>You have a large amound of ridiculous options to your class</U>.  </P> <P>and seriously... most of those options are just there because of a bug to song stacking with the Elise and Raxxyl lines that is going to get removed sooner or later.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[RobertQuicksilv]

Now that abilities have stat descriptions I know exactly what benefit my troubador can bring to a group. Merciless Melody Adept I, 16% increase in attack speed to every single group member! If a group is a killing machine then a troubador is the oil, it makes them much more efficient. Brias Thrilling (or Stirring) Ballad increases power regen, Aria of Excitement gives a troubador proc to all group members etc. A troubador in a group is all about killing things faster, more power, more chance to pull off HO's. HO's are relative to a mobs level, the same HO against a lvl 21 mob will do more damage against a lvl 28 one and so on. If you are soloing then you need to learn the cheap shot, cancel melee attack, move behind mob then backstab them combo, that can be highly effective.

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Komandi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <DIV>While it's all a little suttle at times, it's extremely powerful as a whole, and even if the improvements are limited to 25% per person, you've MORE than helped your group enough to be worth your weight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>"While it's all a little suttle (sic) at times"...  Funniest thing I've read all day!  </P> <P>So please, Sire, tell us what these magic song combinations are!  The Songs they gave me don't do squat at Lvl 24.  I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to improve every member of the group by 25% (and 40%! pu-lease); Wow!  - Do I not see THAT ever happening.  <BR></P> <P>Songsters Luck - +3 attack/defense (yawn).  Haste - 10% (only noticible without specials, useless).  Rousing Tune - Stats +20 str/agil/stam (str/agi nerfed - no apparent effect).  5% chance to proc (once every other battle?).  +5 in-battle mana (just mana burn and take a drink).  Debuffs are even weaker.  The only reason my group notices the buffs at all is because of the icons.  </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>To answer your question: "So please, Sire, tell us what these magic song combinations are!  The Songs they gave me don't do squat at Lvl 24.  I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to improve every member of the group by 25% (and 40%! pu-lease); Wow!  - Do I not see THAT ever happening."</P> <P>You are level 24, you don't have as many options and will not improve the whole group as much with your songs, BUT you also do much closer to the highest DPSers damage as well.  At 24, your DPS should be about 75% of any other DPS class, and you add at least 15% effectiveness to each other member in the group and up everyone regen.   That is MORE than pulling your weight.</P> <P>And that +3 skill makes a very noticible difference in tanking and hitting a mob.  It turns a level 24 group into a level 24.7 group.  That does make a noticable difference.</P> <P>As you get to higher levels, your songs get stronger, and your DPS will go down a little, sort of a sliding scale, but it does even out, and you do pull your weight.</P>

[ExtremeFaji]

Thanks Padien! Your points are well taken. Coincidentally I was playing my Templar yesterday and when a Bard joined our group we were all overjoyed. It made a huge difference seeing their role from a different perspective.

[giving]

<DIV>I enjoy playing my troub.  The main reason is the guild I am in has a lot of fun members and enjoy having me along in the group.  Whether its to crack jokes or to buff the group, I am always welcome to fill a slot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am only level 26, so I am not high enough to have felt where the true nerf supposedly hit, but at this level I see a definite difference with my buffs.  Soloing I was taking on green mobs of three gnolls.  One fight I started, was doing great, and then my buffs started to fade and I started to get hammered and had to evac.  I can definintaly see the difference the songs make in a fight.  In groups its less obvious due to the combat noise.  It might be interesting to parse several fights with and without troub buffs, and compare damage given to damage taken.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday I was in a small group with a wizzie for half the day and then a templar and wizzie for a while.  With a good healer I was able to play tank and I had enough dps to keep the mob off the wizard.  Against groups when one moved to the wizard I could charm it.  I have also played in groups where only my troub and a wizard were the dps, we survived very well in ROV with that arrangment.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We definitaly have a place, it just doesn't fit neatly into the categories, we are not true buffers, we are not true dps.  We need to stop saying to ourselves, "We don't buff as much as another class, and we don't do as much damage this class."  What next, bards also need to heal more than clerics or we are nerfed?  We do not fit a niche, we fill and support multiple niches and that is how we help a group.</DIV>

[Koman]

<DIV>I appreciate your perspective Padien, but man I'm frustrated.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group - I keep hearing everyone say how great it is to have a Bard in the group, but I really don't see it (once again, with my Lvl 24 perspective).  Luckily, I am able to run with a solid group (family members); so grouping is fun.  I honestly don't think they even need me though since the groups guard/cleric combo can burn through yellows and oranges by themselves like there's no tommorow.  Yeah, I can add some damage and trigger some good HO's, but my buffs are horribly dissapointing.  I'ts just not what a Bard is all about IMO.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo - green solo mobs in the Steppes get me to 1/3 health.  I don't even try blues cons any more.  I keep reading about Troubs soloing yellows and can't figure out for the life of me how they can.  What can I possibly be doing wrong?  My equipment is decent (not great, but ok).  I'ts all attuned.  My spells are fairly well upgraded.  I'm swapping out songs all the time.  Buffing.  De-buffing.  Using solo Ho's.  Mobs are simply pounding me into the ground.  SOLO mobs!  ^s or ^^s are out of the question.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Duo - my wife is a Wizard.  I can't hold aggro (we try); and a white or greater solo mob just runs to her and kills her, then kills me.  I can't tank for squat since the agil nerf; so we're stuck duo'ing blues.  This is just as slow as soloing greens.  Last time we tried fighting together after the wiz upgrade and str nerf, I died four times and she died five times.  Again - SOLO mobs!  We never even try ^s or ^^s regardless of the con.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a bard to lvl 56 in EQ1.  Now he could amplify a group!  Weak as all-get-out melee damage wise, but that was OK.  Also, he could fill in for any class that was needed.  A bard was so much more than a [Removed for Content] scout with weak buffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone has any idea what I'm doing wrong, please let me know.  Personally, I can't help but think it's a problem with the class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SlackMastah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>  At 24, your DPS should be about 75% of any other DPS class, and you add at least 15% effectiveness to each other member in the group and up everyone regen.   <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Should" being the operative word. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The recent "adjustments" have made a noticable negative impact on the Troubador's abilities. Our contribution in groups is so minimal as to be laughable. Soloing* is pretty much out of the question now as well. I tend not to post "whaaa whaa whaa my class is nerfed" posts, but the recent changes have been pretty disheartening. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least I enjoy RPing with my troubador. They haven't figured out a way to nerf that yet. :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Don't bother crying "but troubadors aren't meant for soloing!" I'm very much a team-player, thanks, but recently I've seen my ability to take solo encounters <EM>three levels below me </EM>completely gutted and I'm not thrilled about it. </DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SlackMastah C wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>  At 24, your DPS should be about 75% of any other DPS class, and you add at least 15% effectiveness to each other member in the group and up everyone regen.   <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Should" being the operative word. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The recent "adjustments" have made a noticable negative impact on the Troubador's abilities. Our contribution in groups is so minimal as to be laughable. Soloing* is pretty much out of the question now as well. I tend not to post "whaaa whaa whaa my class is nerfed" posts, but the recent changes have been pretty disheartening. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least I enjoy RPing with my troubador. They haven't figured out a way to nerf that yet. :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Don't bother crying "but troubadors aren't meant for soloing!" I'm very much a team-player, thanks, but recently I've seen my ability to take solo encounters <EM>three levels below me </EM>completely gutted and I'm not thrilled about it. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't play a troubador, so I don't know what's going on, but I can't imagine Dirge's being SOOO much better than a troubador that you can't solo but maybe blues, while my dirge soloes oranges 3 in a row before resting and easily solo's just about any green ^^.</FONT></DIV>

[AzureDa]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I don't play a troubador, so I don't know what's going on, but I can't imagine Dirge's being SOOO much better than a troubador that you can't solo but maybe blues,</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>AT 38, I have issues soloing most things except blues... even some greens (wasps in EL come to mind) can give me trouble, and a high gray group can easily kill me.  There are certainly match-ups that are favorable... but I really have a lot of issue soloing.  </P> <P>but oh.... using that 2 concentration healing song for +14hp every 6 seconds sure off-sets my downtime.</P>

[Koman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I don't play a troubador, so I don't know what's going on, but I can't imagine Dirge's being SOOO much better than a troubador that you can't solo but maybe blues, while my dirge soloes oranges 3 in a row before resting and easily solo's just about any green ^^.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are you serious?!?!  You can solo Oranges and ^^ Greens?!?!  Dear God!  Troubs are broken WAY worse than I thought!!  I thought Dirges were at least somewhat comparable.  Dammit to Hell I wish I went Dirge!  Shytte!!  Man!  Now I'm frustrated AND angry!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bah!  You're probably just trolling.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Komandi on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 AM</span>

[Alis]

<DIV>If its true you can solo all ojs or all greens then i am very impressed as a 35 dirge i cant and can suck to the wrong blue solo mob.</DIV>

[giving]

<DIV>I admit to having to pay attention to what I fight solo, but I there are encounters that are a shoe in with proper buffs and good use of combat techniques.  Unless there is a caster I can solo groups of greens (around 3, after that I my mana gets short).  When returning from RoV I had no problem taking out several white and blue skellies in a row.  (problem came when I went against a 'green' centaur and didn't realize the changes to the con system).  So at 26 Ihave not seen an issue with soloing solo mobs that are conned white or below (have never tried yellow or orange mobs).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the group mobs have been made distinctly more difficult.  I was down in a few seconds against the green^^ cent,  Another time a mage and I took on a blue^^ tide octopus and I was nearly dead and hadn't moved the oct from green (had to use evac).  A green^^ tide oct killed us.  Against lvl 21 Deathly Scarabs, they don't hit me, but it takes all my mana to defeat one.  </DIV>

[Jzi]

<DIV>I think alot depends on the level of character maybe its alot different towards 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know at 30 for a Dirge i can solo green ^^ heroic mostly ok, although they have to be low green i.e 26, lv 27 tend to get more lucky hits in and its often not worth the hassle for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for solo mobs I don't see the problem, but it depends on the mob, some have skills and abilitites that lend more problems to our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now I can solo turtles, bears etc in EL fine. In fact turtles are easy I soloed them at lv 26 on a lv 31 turtle, and could solo level 32's changing tactics. The level 31's though I just used the regular songsters, harls (rousing line), brias, and then reproaching discante (those are all shared with troubs). I did pull with lanets which is dirge only, then cheapshot taflos, and then went through the HO and frontal arts, its was close though at times.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure though what troubs are missing that they couldn't do that. My gear was mostly AQ.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at 30, wasps give me a few problems if they are 3 levels or so higher, but they attack with that [FAAR-NERFED!] rake attack or whatever it is, so that swings the fight if they get a couple off, plus as they are flying, generally they are more awkward mobs to fight judging range etc. I'd not try the heroic mobs in this zone as they are all far too high right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>caster mobs in general give me more hassle than melee, so if I have a chioce i'll avoid them. But yes in the 30's I'm not surprised you are seeing dirges say they can deal with orange solo mobs and green ^^ I'm suprised troubs are saying they can't =( </DIV> <DIV>What I will say is with green group mobs the majority of their danger comes from the chance of them landing a combat art attack, once they are out of power their regular melee still miss for the most part, so a fight with those are streaky until they've wasted power on misses, or our little power drain dot has drained them, maybe troubs can do this faster? *shrug* but if they still have power they can land a couple good arts in a row and the fight has often gone in their favour.</DIV> <DIV>Even a high grey can get lucky, as again, if they land a combat art or 2 in sucession it can be painful. A grey giant ^^ in TS the other night smashed me for 400+ then landed a melee for 200+ within a few swings, and people say greys are easy.. they still get lucky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suspect there are levels where the mobs in some zones just aren't that great for soloing for certain classes, for instance at 30 all the orange solo mobs i can solo now in EL would be blue at 35. So unless thier are solo mobs between the levels of 35 and 40, I suspect i'll be soloing only blues also as I won't have much choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know the effectiveness of your charm spells either, or what exactly breaks them, wether its damage or dots & debuffs too. But I'd put even your 14+ a tick health song above haste when soloing provided its not downtime only, as haste frankly unless farming greys seems useless to me when solo, as I spend more time casting other stuff, I'd rather have the option to crawl back some health from any bad rounds earlier in the fight that bother with the 18% haste, i'll keep that for high melee groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jziad on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:44 AM</span>

[aeio]

Whatever... I have 30 plus skills I can use in any given fight depending on the opponent and situation.I am not going to get into another debate with people who claim something is worthless or can't be done, when I know it can be done and/or is not worthless. It is tiresome.

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>AzureDawn wrote:<DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>I don't play a troubador, so I don't know what's going on, but I can't imagine Dirge's being SOOO much better than a troubador that you can't solo but maybe blues,</DIV><DIV><HR></DIV><P>AT 38, I have issues soloing most things except blues... even some greens (wasps in EL come to mind) can give me trouble, and a high gray group can easily kill me. There are certainly match-ups that are favorable... but I really have a lot of issue soloing. </P><P>but oh.... using that 2 concentration healing song for +14hp every 6 seconds sure off-sets my downtime.</P><hr></blockquote>At 38 I can solo yellows very efficiently..Most High green groups are cake.All low green groups are cake.

[ShiroiOokami]

Our class is great at soloing green cons - even ^^'s.Our damage output is so low at this point (especially now that the strength nerf has come in), that I can easily see being beaten by yellow solos. I had enough trouble beating white con solos I haven't bothered with anything higher in a long, long time.It's funny, I duoed with a Warden 2 or so levels under me the other day, and his damage was HIGHER than mine.

[Koman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR>At 38 I can solo yellows very efficiently..<BR><BR>Most High green groups are cake.<BR><BR>All low green groups are cake.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>How?  Are you tanking them?  What's your secret?    I can't even take a green enraged beetle!  I *might* win against a solo blue lion cub with 10% health left...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At Lvl 24, anything on your list above will kill me in just a few hits.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HELP ME!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV>songsters luck (adept+) & take the racial trait giving 5 defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with those 2 you will practically not get hit by a low green. the rest is icing on the cake, but dont neglect the self buffs.</DIV>

[giving]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Komandi wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>How?  Are you tanking them?  What's your secret?    I can't even take a green enraged beetle!  I *might* win against a solo blue lion cub with 10% health left...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At Lvl 24, anything on your list above will kill me in just a few hits.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HELP ME!  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not sure why you are having difficulty.  How are you buffing yourself?  In my low 20's I soloed all of the griffawn quests with Griffawns ranging blue to white the entire time.  The only problem I had was pulling them away from the higher level mobs, and even that was fairly straightfoward.  Are you making good use of your HO's?  I can tell a difference and liberal use of HOs make the fight a lot easier.  </P> <P>When I first got to 20 and started adventuring in TS, I couldn't do it solo, but at about 22 things turned around for me and I was much more effective.  If you are having this much trouble, I would suggest you start varying your tactics and enemies.  Also make sure your equipment is good, I upgraded a bunch of gear and I think that the gear made a significant differences as well.</P>

[Koman]

<DIV>I was fine until the last two patches.  I don't remember trying to solo in-between them, so I guess I'm dealing with accumulated nerfs.  I'm Lvl 24.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo Buffs:  Songsters Luck, Rousing Tune, Performer's Talent, Aria of Excitement.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pull with Piercing Shriek, cast Insatiable Ardor buff on myself.  Start HO and trigger it with a debuff.  Follow up with Sparkling Blade, Walt's Blade, etc.  HO again, etc.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I don't do is stun, run around behind mob and use Taffo's.  I've never had much success with this technique and it just doesn't seem worth the trouble.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Armor is green through yellow; nothing's grey.  Spells and attacks are App IV and above with a lot of Adept I's.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same yard trash in the Thundering Steppes I was fighting before the last two patches are now handing me my own butt (and laughing about it!).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE broke something.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SlackMastah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> givingup wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> In my low 20's I soloed all of the griffawn quests with Griffawns ranging blue to white the entire time.  The only problem I had was pulling them away from the higher level mobs, and even that was fairly straightfoward.  Are you making good use of your HO's?  I can tell a difference and liberal use of HOs make the fight a lot easier.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Fine suggestions, but your experience is pre-patch. I had much the same experience as you up until last week. Now it's a totally different game. When a solo encounter cons green and says you shouldn't have any trouble with it, it shouldn't kill you the way it does now.</DIV>

[giving]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SlackMastah C wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <DIV>Fine suggestions, but your experience is pre-patch. I had much the same experience as you up until last week. Now it's a totally different game. When a solo encounter cons green and says you shouldn't have any trouble with it, it shouldn't kill you the way it does now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was on last night and fought blue and white cons.  The blue con dinged my health to barely turn yellow when I finished him off, the white con was much more challenging, but I still won with a healthy margin.  For the White Con my character was below the health I had pre-patch, but I still had plenty of margin.  I have never had difficulty with solo green cons.  </DIV>

[Tuberosity]

<DIV>I've never had a problem soloing regular blue or green mobs, anywhere from the 20's to my current level of 43.  My wife (43 shaman) and I do a fairly good job duo-ing white ^^ mobs, and that's with me tanking.  It took me a little time to find the right song combinations, but my system works pretty well not whether I'm soloing, duo-ing, or in a full group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a bard I've never had trouble getting a group.  You don't have to be uber DPS to enhance the group significantly.  I know that I got depressed when a ranger in our group said that he just had a single hit for over 800.  I can't get anywhere near that on a single hit.  However, without the right songs from me, he never could have hit for that much.  Folks who know about bards want one in a group.  I even get an occasional random tell from someone I've never met asking if I want to join a group.  It's not me speciaifcally that they want - they just want a bard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[VikodiN]

<DIV>My bard doesn't really have problems getting groups ... however, I am doing something wrong.  I find that even blues are VERY capable of handing me my behind for some reason.</DIV>

[Ts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> givingup wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> In my low 20's I soloed all of the griffawn quests with Griffawns ranging blue to white the entire time.  The only problem I had was pulling them away from the higher level mobs, and even that was fairly straightfoward.  Are you making good use of your HO's?  I can tell a difference and liberal use of HOs make the fight a lot easier.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Fine suggestions, but your experience is pre-patch. I had much the same experience as you up until last week. Now it's a totally different game. When a solo encounter cons green and says you shouldn't have any trouble with it, it shouldn't kill you the way it does now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yea..   24 Troubador here..   I know that in the past I soloed the green heroic's gnolls just past the 1st tower.  took a bit of doing but I beat them..  well the other night same group  of greens were there..  2 looters and a diviner..      Using the same buffs as I did before.. I got butt handed to me..  /shrug figure it was just crap RNG.. so tried again..  /smirk....  my butt is really black and blue now..     Anyways I went back to solo green/blue mobs.. seems a lot safer  LOL  didn't seem to have a problem with them..   I have fairly good equipment.   all AQ's except for the chest which  is a Pristine Tailored Boiled Tunic.  and yea I was using a decent shield as well.   </P> <P></FONT> </P> <P>Anyways here's the funny part...  I finally get a group. .but we have no tank..   (Fury 21, Templar 23, Wizard 23, Swashbuckler 23, and myself)  So it was decided that I should tank  (OMG ME TANKING???)   heh worked out quite nicely..   we set up  just past the 3rd tower.. and we pulled blue/white ^^ single Cents.. and I tanked them..   /chuckle  the most fun that I ever had..   casted Arcane Chorus to make sure I get agro nailed and the few times that I lost  agro.. I just recasted it...  was a lot of fun..    <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    Now if only they would fix some of the soloing portions.. I'll really be happy.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P>

[Xran]

At L25 grouped with L23-26s - with stat buffs - I bring my entire group's Strength, Agility and Stamina to 100+That, my friends, are huge boosts. Generally you don't see that with high 20s. So that means fighters and scoutsdeal way more damage, dodge more and have more hp. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Power regen even though is tiny ... it is very noticeable. Trying pulling non-stop, you will see that w/ gooddrink, your group don't even realize that they don't have to stop to pause. 5% proc of extra dmg is debateable. For 5% chance of 50+ dmg, I am ok about this buff.Merciless Melody haste buff. According to parses, melee auto-attack is about 30-40% of our total dmg if we spamspecials. Now 30-40% is huge. When you have at least 2 meleers going away, haste is huge.The +3 off/def buff is tad debateable, but they do make your entire group more powerful. Not as great as before,but still some boost. Though the silent nerf was plain bad. Well, it was balanced across all skill buffs, so notonly bard's got nerfed.

[fur]

<DIV>A troubadour is imo THE most important player in any group , especially if the group is heavy melee based, the troubs own dps might not be that impressive but when you take into account the 15>20% he adds to the damage output of EVERY other melee in the group you start to realise just how powerful the troubadour class is. There is imo no class in the game that benefits the group in more ways then a trouby, i can understand your frustration with the bard class if you think of it in terms of personal power of the bard, however the bard is not about personal power and to my knowledge has never been in any game, the bard is and always has been one of the strongest support classes in eq and other games , thats just what they are in eq2 as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skull - Kithicor</DIV>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Komandi wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I don't do is stun, run around behind mob and use Taffo's.  I've never had much success with this technique and it just doesn't seem worth the trouble.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think that would be the problem Komandi. At any level your flank/sneak attack is still a major factor in your Dps, not only is your dps going up when using this but also the stun will negate some of the mobs dps also. It is worth the trouble. Truly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many bards who can solo effectively are not using the stun-move to flank style?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[texwood]

<DIV>me.</DIV> <DIV>i don't use flank attacks while soloing</DIV> <DIV>and i solo whites without any issues</DIV> <DIV>and yellows with a little effort.</DIV> <DIV>flank attacks don't add a lot of damage.</DIV> <DIV>i use HOs all the time , sometimes i finish HOs with dissenting cantata.</DIV> <DIV>i use parry buff any time it's up.</DIV> <DIV>works fine for me.</DIV>

[Koman]

<DIV>What level are you Texwood?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had to solo the last 10% to level 29 because my group wasn't on (and they had already hit 29).  So I grabbed some green and blue bears in Thundering Steppes because they were handy.  It took freaking forever!  Greens were ok, but I had to evac twice when fighting the blue ones.  A couple of times the blues got me to 15% health by the end of the fight.  These are solo mobs!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My group loves me; but MAN, I can't solo for squat!  In fact, I solo so poorly that I really have a hard time believing any Troub CAN solo whites and yellows, regardless of the effort involved, flank, no flank, buffed, whatever...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I gimped myself somehow early on, who knows?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[texwood]

<DIV>I'm lvl 26 at the moment. I got the best equipment for my level.</DIV> <DIV>All my spells are adept 1, which ist important especially for the attack skills imo.</DIV> <DIV>I'm fighting those skellies near Varsoon at the moment.</DIV> <DIV>Whites are really no problem, yellows bring me to 25 % health.</DIV> <DIV>Sure, my templar does better on solo mobs (oranges no problem)</DIV> <DIV>but i could't beat the green++ skellies (no casters and 4 levels below) with my templar</DIV> <DIV>'cos i just would run out of power</DIV> <DIV>( ok, i could hammer them down and use all the power to heal, but that would take ages)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw i use:</DIV> <DIV>vhalens</DIV> <DIV>raxxyls ad 1</DIV> <DIV>songsters ad 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the last con slot depends on mob -</DIV> <DIV>arcane chorus for the casting skellies near varsoon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i always spam HOs and all attack skills.</DIV> <DIV>if i get swindlers luck i use cheap shot (coin) </DIV> <DIV>in hope to change to rousing tune, which works in say 60% of the cases.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i didn't loose a fight against a white mob yet.</DIV> <DIV>If a yellow one is really lucky with hitting me - well evac is my friend</DIV> <DIV>but that doesn't happen often.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway it's not worth fighting yellows for xp.</DIV> <DIV>I usually take on blues and whites or green ++ ( for chests)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hope that helps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Koman]

<DIV>I might /respec to Vhalens to see if the extra stats help.  Worth a try, eh?  I just won't tell my wizzy wife that she won't have her Intell buff from Cassandra's any more.  Shhhh!   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone think I might have gimped myself by not picking Vhalens?  It would explain a lot if those with it can solo Yellows, but those without it are stuck with blue/greenies.  What do y'all think?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Spar]

<DIV>I know folks wont want to hear this here.. but... I have 8 charachters from leval 22 to 40.. of all of them that I ever played.. my Troubador is the eaisest to solo.  I soloed from 1-24 in 3 days and have my crafting to leval 21.  I have a gnome Troub, and with agi buffs etc and gear.. I have 110 agi when I solo.  What I have discovered is.. I have not yet found a  two up green group mob that can hit me.  Heck when I was 22 I would pull a whole field of crows.. two up greens and just sit and hit them till they died.. 8-10 at a time... no danger as I was Never Hit Once.  Since then I have moved to One Up group crabs on the beach in Nek.. still cant hit me.  I have found that I can leval so fast alone that grouping is a hinderance at this point. Now as my main is a Ranger.. I realize this may change when I hit the late 20s or 30s.. but for now.. its like candy from a baby.  Nothing fancy about my tactics.. I usually just pull and hit attack.. dont even use special attacks.. when one dies I wait for whatever hits me next and hit attack again.  Most of the time I am kind of watching tv and hitting attack now and again till they are all dead.  (note.. I have noticed that if my spells drop and my agi goes under 100.. I can be hit)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI.. my gear is all orange/yellow pristine forged carbonite</DIV> <DIV>all of my spells are adept one.. and my weapons are also nice.. +5 and +7 Agi weapons if I recall.</DIV> <DIV>All my Jewlery is orange player crafted.  I chose not to do the AQ's as I find it a waste of time as player crafted last me to 30 and that greys out before then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have two friends that watched me solo.. and they immediately rolled up troubadors.  Shrug</DIV>

[texwood]

<DIV>True til you reach lvl 25+</DIV> <DIV>Over 25 green++ mobs 3 levels below me hit me.</DIV> <DIV>I still can beat them but not without specials.</DIV> <DIV>Some of those green++ are impossible tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Green++ mobs 4 levels below me are still easy but </DIV> <DIV>they don't give decent xp anymore.</DIV> <DIV>I hunt them just for the chests and for fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@ Komandi</DIV> <DIV>i can't imagine that it's just vhalens that makes the difference.</DIV> <DIV>Agi and Str don't do much on yellow mobs.</DIV> <DIV>The Sta buff is the most important.</DIV> <DIV>But you still could get a Rousing tune adept 1 or 3.</DIV> <DIV>Should be almost equal to vhalens.</DIV> <DIV>Are your attack skills upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited typo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by texwood on <SPAN class=date_text>03-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:26 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by texwood on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 AM</span>

[Koman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> texwood wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@ Komandi</DIV> <DIV>i can't imagine that it's just vhalens that makes the difference.</DIV> <DIV>Agi and Str don't do much on yellow mobs.</DIV> <DIV>The Sta buff is the most important.</DIV> <DIV>But you still could get a Rousing tune adept 1 or 3.</DIV> <DIV>Should be almost equal to vhalens.</DIV> <DIV>Are your attack skills upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My Attacks & Spells are mostly Adept I's with a few Apprentice IV's.  Armor is mostly quest armor.  </P> <P>Does Vhalen's stack with Rousing Tune, or is it just a replacement?  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[texwood]

<DIV>it's a replacement.</DIV> <DIV>but it stacks with raxxyls.</DIV>

[Koman]

<DIV>I'm totally calling BS on Moorgard's recent post about player skill.  If Sparlo (see his msg above) can fight groups of Heroic greens without even using specials and I get my butt handed to me by solo blue mobs using every spell, special and HO I've got then SKILL IS NOT A FACTOR.  Sorry Moorgard.  And no, I'm not newbish.  This is assuming, of course, that Sparlo and others aren't lying about their Uberness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard:  Any chance we can get a Dev to look at why the huge disparity among Troubs soloing ability *really* exists?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>You've touched on something fairly substantive here, and it's a point that's difficult to get across in a way that people will accept. In fact, some will probably get mad at me for even bringing this up, and I apologize in advance for derailing this thread. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV>Crafting is indeed a combination of skill and luck, and we'd definitely like the system to favor skill. Pure random chance would mean that everyone would end up with similar results over time. Clearly, as you point out, this isn't the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the same thing with adventuring. Two people can have the same gear, be the same level and class, fighting the same mobs. Yet they report vastly different results, one claiming they are hopelessly broken and the other saying they do just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what's the difference? Is it random numbers, or player skill?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if I've ever seen anyone on an MMO message board complain about their class and then admit "But then again, I might not be playing my class very well." On the other hand, you can hardly look at a gameplay-related thread without multiple people blaming the designers, the random number generator, some dark corporate scheme, or any number of factors as to why they can't do what they want to do. Sure, there can be legitimate issues that cause real gameplay problems. But when there isn't, and it's a situation where one person says their class stinks while another person thinks it's great, how do you figure out who's right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wouldn't be logical to assume that everyone plays this type of game with the same level of skill. Certainly not everyone who throws a baseball pitches like Kurt Schilling, and we don't expect them to. Computer games may not make the same physical demands as a sport, but that doesn't mean skill isn't important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ever since the days of the Atari 2600, video games have addressed this fact. In many console games, you get to pick the skill level at which you play. Computer games, too. I personally don't feel any shame if I try out an FPS on "beginner" mode while some 12-year-old kid is playing on "super extreme" setting; I hereby acknowledge that I suck at FPS games. But you shouldn't need to be the best at something--whether it's baseball or Quake--in order to enjoy it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MMOs, of course, don't have a difficulty switch that can be changed for different skill levels of players. By the very nature of MMOs, you have to make the playing field as level as possible. While some classes might be more straightforward to play than others, I would venture to guess that the goal of most MMO designers is to make every class have some elements that reward skillful play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as soon as you do that--as soon as you make it so one player can outperform another based on the way they use the tools available to them--you introduce inequality. Because I will tell you this: a poorly played character, regardless of how technically well-designed or well-balanced its class may be, is broken in a fundamental way. And except in the most obvious cases, it usually isn't the player who gets blamed for that: it's the design team.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I say this not to anger anyone or to escape culpability for bugs or broken features. We certainly have our share of those. But even if every bug is fixed and every ability has some kind of parity, there will be people swearing that their class is utterly broken. So at that point you either have to blame the random number generator or else find another factor that is responsible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, sorry for editorializing, it's just an issue I think about in this job. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Please feel free to get back to talking about ways to enhance the crafting process.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[texwood]

<DIV>Komandi, i still can't believe that you can't beat blue mobs.</DIV> <DIV>What mobs are you fighting ?</DIV> <DIV>There are some enhanced solo mobs , i.e the "enraged" ones.</DIV> <DIV>Those are harder than normal solo mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Did you try normal blue solo mobs ?</DIV> <DIV>And as said above not all green++ mobs are easy, above level 25.</DIV> <DIV>They have to be 4 levels below and no casters.</DIV> <DIV>Maybe you just picked the wrong mobs...</DIV>

[Xran]

how's your weapons, Komandi?If you are using AQ armors at L29, some of them are weaking already...

[Spar]

<DIV>In response.. (I did not take offense) No I am not lying.. since I dinged again I went in search of more mobs.. now I am soloing two up green mobs in Stormhold.. same method.. no specials.. they simply cant hit me.. I did almost die last night.. as I was not paying attention (watching tv).. what happend was this.. my song ran out.. dex dropped under 100.. the second my dex drops under 100 I take damage.. by hitting my buff again.. the mobs could not hit me again.. by the end of the fight.. my life was full again and all was right with the world.  This particular tune is named Tunz.. he is on Lavastorm server.. please feel free to make an alt if you doubt my word.. come and watch the wonderous Troubador in action! hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ps.  Not all two up greens are the same.. for instance at leval 24 there are leval 20 and 21 heroic two ups that are both green.. I leave the 21s as they can hit me.. I hit the 20s.. when I ding 25.. ill hit the leval 21 mobs.. I find it interesting that a regular blue mob (not heroic) can damage me.. maybe drop me to 75% life by end of fight if i use my HOs.  But i dont fight those as I currently get over 1 blue bub for each two up I kill.</DIV> <DIV>     Furthermore I find.. for whatever reason.. when somone joins me.. in my group.. I start getting hit... thus I NEVER group.</DIV>

[Koman]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Armor and weapons:  My Helm just turned grey, everything else is blue through yellow.  I'm waiting for my med armor skill to hit 150+ so I can wear some stuff (drops) I've got in the bank.  Using 1 handed and shield for the extra AC, again - waiting for skill up to use some good drops I've got.  I'm gonna change to dual wield because the shield doesn't seem to make much difference and I group most of the time anyway.  My equipment isn't great, but HEY, It's not like I'm naked!  (Well, no, it kind of IS like I'm naked.  Doh!).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The stuff I've fought solo has just been the solo yard-trash in TS.  No enraged or anything.  Bears, lions, crabs.  Greens I can kill without much health loss, but I'll need to rest for power.  (yes I use player made food).  Blues will get me down below half health.  I'll probably need to evac or run from a solo blue maybe 25% of the time (this was fighting bears).  Last time I fought blue solo crabs, I think I only had to evac once.  I haven't tried anything ^ or ^^ or solo white or above in levels and levels.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Running from a blue solo con...  Man does that make you feel [Removed for Content]!   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Glad you didn't take offense Sparlo (I did say I was assuming you *weren't* lying).  I figure either I'm bugged or you are!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*I* took offense at Moorgard's post though; I might not be the most skilled player, but c'mon!  Are there any other Troubs in their late twenties out there who have had to run from a solo blue con mob?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Spar]

<DIV>Well from what you posted I can see your problem I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) gear/spells   Gear that is grey/blue I simply would not wear.. I have the luxury of this being an alt so money is not an issue.. therefore, I have all yellow/orange gear..everything... I have adept 1s on every spell I use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Mob choice   Like I said picking a mob is important.  Three times now I have been going to the ts docs and got jumped by a SOLO green bear... one of the new ones.. I had to run for my life all 3 times.  As I also posted Blue mobs hit me.  The thing is that two up greens are actually 3 levels below a blue solo mob... so they dont hit you as much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) AC/AGI  With blue gear you probably dont have your agi high.. as I dinged 25 last night I got another spell for AGI which stacks with my other ones.. now when I solo i have a 129 agi... and my AC is 2540... I went back to Ts and found that I could solo the leval 21 two up gnoll groups in the pits by T1 just fine.. they dont hit me.. also the mobs in SH that are 2 up 21s cant hit me.. so I can hunt either.. I see lots of two up groups of leval 22 and 23 mobs in SH so I assume I will be able to get to 27 doing solo within a couple days in SH..(and the loot is better there)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helped ya some... I know it is just a matter of maximizing your gear and agi and picking the right mobs.. you can do it!</DIV>